Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3161)

OU council minutes and surveys are now grouped together in a new thread, which includes the first ever SS OU council minutes!
Thanks for sharing! It is really great to see the inner workings of council decisions, and I'm happy to see that such impactful decisions involving widely distributed moves or highly utilized items are not being taken lightly. I am also happy to see the council is open to looking at luck based items but open to seeing where things go with them as well. Imo the OU tier is honestly pretty good at the moment, and I've been quite frustrated with the state of the tier post DLC2 up until recently
 
Thanks Finchinator for the council minute's and giving us a rundown. I appreciate the tier will be given more time to evolve and while i would love a boots clause or volc gone it's not the end of the world. I'm quite enjoying the tier right now. I would be keen to how the your thought's on this gens lack of answers to ghost type?

Regardless Thanks

Anyway so this post isn't wasted I've been experimenting Bulky CB Scizor and T-wave CM bold clef and i must say im loving the result's. Scizors ability to take stabs from kyurem, weavile or rillabloom stab and threaten them and clean with bullet punch is really rice late game. Swords dance is probably better in general but if you just wanna take a hit before spamming priority or revenge a weakened garchomp its definately worth a look.

As for clef, it may just be me trolling but i genuinely think T-wave is underrated on my favourite fairy. Being able to lure in heatran, volcarona and other would be checks, t-wave it and slowly calm mind on them assuming no flash cannon is hilarious. Bold just lets it absorb physical hits that'd usually 2hko or ko to nab kills or Para'. Sure it means not taking knock off on utility or coverage cm but speed control really help's in this meta.

Edit: How do you post sprites? Im clueless and its been awhile
 

Finchinator

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Thanks Finchinator for the council minute's and giving us a rundown. I appreciate the tier will be given more time to evolve and while i would love a boots clause or volc gone it's not the end of the world. I'm quite enjoying the tier right now. I would be keen to how the your thought's on this gens lack of answers to ghost type?
Glad you enjoy!

The "lack of answers to ghost type"s narrative is overblown and, quite frankly, not fully correct.

We have more viable Dark types now than any other point this generation or even last with Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Weavile, Hydreigon, and some fringe options viable, Blissey is still great, SDef Clefable is the norm for a slew of reasons, and things like Toxapex, SDef Toxic Heatran, and SDef Hippowdon all are quite common. Bulky offense and hyper offense can punish every move Dragapult can lock into while also making it prediction reliant to begin with if there is Shadow Ball counterplay to some degree.

I have not been convinced by any of the posts claiming that Specs Dragapult is currently banworthy; I would be more open to suspecting it in the future if there was more widespread support throughout a survey and/or the council, but that’s not currently the case. If you cannot adapt to common offensive Pokemon evolving and offensive/defensive cores evolving in response to trends, that’s largely on your at some point. Dragapult is nowhere near as restrictive as anything else we have banned this generation and it is far from the most restrictive presence in this metagame.

also, you add sprites by typing :pokemon name: so for Dragapult you type : Dragapult : without the spaces to give you :Dragapult:
 
Glad you enjoy!

The "lack of answers to ghost type"s narrative is overblown and, quite frankly, not fully correct.

We have more viable Dark types now than any other point this generation or even last with Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Weavile, Hydreigon, and some fringe options viable, Blissey is still great, SDef Clefable is the norm for a slew of reasons, and things like Toxapex, SDef Toxic Heatran, and SDef Hippowdon all are quite common. Bulky offense and hyper offense can punish every move Dragapult can lock into while also making it prediction reliant to begin with if there is Shadow Ball counterplay to some degree.

I have not been convinced by any of the posts claiming that Specs Dragapult is currently banworthy; I would be more open to suspecting it in the future if there was more widespread support throughout a survey and/or the council, but that’s not currently the case. If you cannot adapt to common offensive Pokemon evolving and offensive/defensive cores evolving in response to trends, that’s largely on your at some point. Dragapult is nowhere near as restrictive as anything else we have banned this generation and it is far from the most restrictive presence in this metagame.

also, you add sprites by typing :pokemon name: so for Dragapult you type : Dragapult : without the spaces to give you :Dragapult:
Thanks for taking time to reply and i appreciate the know for sprite typing. My :clefable: luring, t-waving and slaying everyones :heatran: is thankful.

Anyway i agree that :Dragapult: Dragapult is not banworthy and even without dedicated checks (which you should take anyway given its prominence) overcoming is not that difficult be it keeping a priority user healthy, luring it, keeping future sight going etc. It Lack's the snowballing properties that allowed specterier and currently to a lesser extent volcarona to pick and choose there check's.

It's not broken on its own and I would only support banning it if ghost spam as a whole was considered problematic by the community which there is no consensus for currently despite pults dominance. I do think pursuits removal was a mistake.

I also dont buy arguements that blissey being used outside stall is a sign of an unhealthy meta since she offer's so much utility in addition to sponging attack's saving team slots so i wish people would drop that argument.

Now a certain flaming bug on the otherhand i do think is problematic but that's an arguement for another day.
 

Niko

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Glad you enjoy!

The "lack of answers to ghost type"s narrative is overblown and, quite frankly, not fully correct.

We have more viable Dark types now than any other point this generation or even last with Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Weavile, Hydreigon, and some fringe options viable, Blissey is still great, SDef Clefable is the norm for a slew of reasons, and things like Toxapex, SDef Toxic Heatran, and SDef Hippowdon all are quite common. Bulky offense and hyper offense can punish every move Dragapult can lock into while also making it prediction reliant to begin with if there is Shadow Ball counterplay to some degree.

I have not been convinced by any of the posts claiming that Specs Dragapult is currently banworthy; I would be more open to suspecting it in the future if there was more widespread support throughout a survey and/or the council, but that’s not currently the case. If you cannot adapt to common offensive Pokemon evolving and offensive/defensive cores evolving in response to trends, that’s largely on your at some point. Dragapult is nowhere near as restrictive as anything else we have banned this generation and it is far from the most restrictive presence in this metagame.

also, you add sprites by typing :pokemon name: so for Dragapult you type : Dragapult : without the spaces to give you :Dragapult:
The majority of the answers you mentioned about Dragapult are unviables, Heatran gets 3HKO'd after rocks and only has a turn to click Toxic (if you have it), Mandibuzz risks Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt or to be burned (burned Mandi = absolutely useless), Hydreigon is in your list only because it's a Dark but dies from Draco Meteor, Tyranitar is a meme out of Sand, terrible speed and terrible defensive typing for everything else, Weavile gets 3HKO'd if you're lucky enough to see it using SBall and not anything else. Toxapex is way worse than it was for example in CinderMage meta because of offensive grounds, Tapu Lele, Futureport exc. but still a SpDef drop is enough to kill it. Blissey dies by physical set, Hippowdon is only used as the ground slot to deal better with Specs Dragapult (IF it's not Hydro Pump)lol, that shit is passive as fuck. Not to mention that it outspeeds the entire metagame except for Zeraora and has like every type of coverage possible. It also has multiple viables sets with different checks and no check for all of them. You want to indirectly/offensively check it with Screens or Substitute? Nope, Infiltrator bitch. Add to this the access to double status move, the decent bulk and the fact that you can literally spam it in every fucking team without drawbacks because it softchecks /rkills other broken shit like Volcarona and Urshifu-R.

Also @ more darks than usually: most of them are only used to try to contain Dragapult without even being able to do that properly, adding another unbalancing factor to a metagame where the counterplay to the majority of the threats is to fish for the matchup and hope your opponent doesn't use them.
 
The majority of the answers you mentioned about Dragapult are unviables, [cutout]
While your points are good, I wouldn't say unviables- these pokemon are certainly viable. I would instead say that they are questionable answers.

But yeah dragapult is just fucked atm lol, it's checks are very few and far between and god forbid a spdef drop or chip happens


Anyway i agree that :Dragapult: Dragapult is not banworthy and even without dedicated checks (which you should take anyway given its prominence) overcoming is not that difficult be it keeping a priority user healthy, luring it, keeping future sight going etc. It Lack's the snowballing properties that allowed specterier and currently to a lesser extent volcarona to pick and choose there check's.
I wanted to reply to this.
priority against dragapult is basically just sucker punch, due to it resisting extreme speed, grassy glide, aqua jet, etc, and we all know that sucker punch is a mess. Luring it is uh honestly kinda difficult- I don't know any dragapult lures, and as for keeping future sight going, how on earth are you supposed to do that when every future sight user except slowking-galar gets murdered by it (and iirc even that takes a good third)
 
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I wanted to reply to this.
priority against dragapult is basically just sucker punch, due to it resisting extreme speed, grassy glide, aqua jet, etc, and we all know that sucker punch is a mess. Luring it is uh honestly kinda difficult- I don't know any dragapult lures, and as for keeping future sight going, how on earth are you supposed to do that when every future sight user except slowking-galar gets murdered by it (and iirc even that takes a good third)
Thanks for taking the time to reply to me.

Your forgetting bullet punch, ice shard and that ghost priority move exist. Even a Resisted slide can finish a weakened pult. You also dont have have to click teleport everytime you use future sight and i doubt there gonna switch a pult in on the slow twins who can lure it with shadow baIl. You could you know manually switch to avoid the u-turn/shadow ball if it came to that. Sure they have momentum but pult can't stay in and you keep future sight going.

You can also lure it with choice scarfers, putting thunder wave on thing's that can tank a hit not to mention so many Random things get my most hated move. Knock off which is more spammable then even T-wave

Its as finch said sooner or later you have to look at your own team building and no Im not saying use wigglytuff or Rest Tar as those are memes until proven otherwise, just think outside the box is all im saying.
 

airfare

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:bw/slowbro::bw/slowking:

Congrats to Slowking on its new S tier spot. I wanted to discuss what I see as one of the biggest problems in this metagame, and possibly offer a solution... there are many directions to take regarding action taken against Future Sight / Teleport / Regenerator, but I honestly feel that a complex ban is the best way to resolve this problem without disrupting the rest of the metagame - I will elaborate more below.

Cutting right to the chase - Teleport + Regenerator is uncompetitive, as outlined by the tiering policy framework here. By taking out any possible risk associated with switching, using any offensive switch-in for momentum via Teleport or defensive answer for extreme offensive support in the form of Future Sight, opposing players have to get repeated risky 50-50s correct to maintain any sort of momentum and not be heavily punished. The main problem with the Slowtwins that differentiates them from other Teleport users, as I see it, is Regenerator, which lets them benefit from stealing momentum and giving them longevity while giving them the option to never actually waste a turn - and their momentum - using Slack Off. When we saw other Teleport users like Wish + Teleport Clefable pre-DLC, there was at least the option to attack it while it Teleports to its teammate, inflicting non-negligible damage and actually pressuring it on its next switch-in. We don't see this with the Slowtwins. Players are often forced to make risky switches to offensive Pokemon to try and prevent Future Sight, while risking their Dragapult / Rillaboom / Zeraora / Tapu Koko / whatever other revenge killer being crippled to a Scald burn - or just losing momentum as they click Teleport. The reward associated with clicking Teleport, as compared to the risk, is astronomical when compounded with Regenerator.

So why not just switch to a defensive Pokemon? It's not a huge deal to lose momentum on their Teleport when you already have a defensive answer in, right? This is where the element of Future Sight comes in, and where the Slowtwins are pushed over the edge for me. Future Sight has seen viable usage in OU for the first time because of its unparalleled offensive utility and ability to force progress like nothing else when paired with a wallbreaker. By hitting a defensive Pokemon twice in one turn, especially because of its ability to hit on the special side, Future Sight + wallbreakers like Kartana, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, Weavile lose most of their reliable defensive counterplay. I don't really think I need to talk more about this. I build stall pretty often and am forced to use outlandish techs like Shedinja, Substitute Blissey, Protect Tangrowth, etc. to help prevent Future Sight + wallbreakers KOing a Pokemon every time they come in... and even these techs can be pressured quite easily. There is simply no reliable counterplay to this combo. In addition to the Teleport mechanics changing, I think there are a couple more reasons why we see Future Sight so often this gen. Here's the main point I wanted to make with this post. By removing any ways to reliably punish switches in gen 8 (see: Heavy-Duty Boots, Pursuit deletion), players are forced to resort to other options like trapping and Future Sight to force progress.

I would be down for either a Future Sight + Teleport complex ban, targeting the riskless Future Sight passing, or a Regenerator + Teleport complex ban, targeting riskless pivoting altogether, for the reasons I outlined above. By letting the Slowtwins themselves be and leaving a hard Future Sight ban alone, we can both preserve Slowking's use as a great special wall this gen (MAN i just want more tran checks) and Future Sight's niche use, as seen by Reuniclus, Galarian Slowking, and Tapu Lele, without unpunishable pivoting given by the Slowtwins.

Other resources:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heavy-duty-boots.3667472/ - pretty in-depth PR thread about boots a while back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-545738 - Serene Grace vs John W, SPL week 8
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-544656 - Eo vs Sacri', SPL week 7
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-551431 - talah vs John W, SPL finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559113 - CKW vs youngsterjoeyv69, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560192 - Floss vs kahili, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559244 - Roseybear vs austriangeorge, WCOP qualifiers
any other john w / eo / 100p replays

Archer Kirby magma storm post soon
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply to me.

Your forgetting bullet punch, ice shard and that ghost priority move exist. Even a Resisted slide can finish a weakened pult. You also dont have have to click teleport everytime you use future sight and i doubt there gonna switch a pult in on the slow twins who can lure it with shadow baIl. You could you know manually switch to avoid the u-turn/shadow ball if it came to that. Sure they have momentum but pult can't stay in and you keep future sight going.

You can also lure it with choice scarfers, putting thunder wave on thing's that can tank a hit not to mention so many Random things get my most hated move. Knock off which is more spammable then even T-wave

Its as finch said sooner or later you have to look at your own team building and no Im not saying use wigglytuff or Rest Tar as those are memes until proven otherwise, just think outside the box is all im saying.
Thanks for replying :)
My bad for forgetting those priority moves- I would not consider them consistent answers, however, since if dragapult comes in you cant exactly just swap to your users (most of which are quite offensive and cant take a hit) Certainly, a resisted glide can finish a weakened pult, but it's nowhere near consistent. The slowtwins never run shadow ball lol, that would mean either getting rid of scald (a near-necessity) slack off (very important), future sight/teleport (the entire point).
As for the lures you claim, none of them can ever come in more than once at best and the simple fact is that nothing can safely come in. While they are certainly interesting tries, and I respect them, they are usually not the best way. (Also, if it's not something stupid like scarf Garchomp, you can just realize that it might be scarf anyhow lol).

If we have to take measures like putting shadow ball on the slowtwins, in my opinion, that is way too far.
I have built dozens of teams in OU over the last few weeks and consistently they all have at best one or two iffy checks to Dragapult- the most successful relies on offensive heatran and zeraora for it (and IG Rilla helps).

Thank you for being polite in this discussion :)

As for airfare's well thought out opinion on a potential future sight+teleport ban, I am mildly against it, if for no reason than that the specific move combination under threat is (in my view) not inherently broken. I would prefer to ban the specific abusers if they are overpowered, which I also doubt.
EDIT: looking at the cited thread, and quoting from the definition of uncompetitive:
" They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. " I wouldn't say that this is true for future sight+teleport.
 
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:bw/slowbro::bw/slowking:

Congrats to Slowking on its new S tier spot. I wanted to discuss what I see as one of the biggest problems in this metagame, and possibly offer a solution... there are many directions to take regarding action taken against Future Sight / Teleport / Regenerator, but I honestly feel that a complex ban is the best way to resolve this problem without disrupting the rest of the metagame - I will elaborate more below.

Cutting right to the chase - Teleport + Regenerator is uncompetitive, as outlined by the tiering policy framework here. By taking out any possible risk associated with switching, using any offensive switch-in for momentum via Teleport or defensive answer for extreme offensive support in the form of Future Sight, opposing players have to get repeated risky 50-50s correct to maintain any sort of momentum and not be heavily punished. The main problem with the Slowtwins that differentiates them from other Teleport users, as I see it, is Regenerator, which lets them benefit from stealing momentum and giving them longevity while giving them the option to never actually waste a turn - and their momentum - using Slack Off. When we saw other Teleport users like Wish + Teleport Clefable pre-DLC, there was at least the option to attack it while it Teleports to its teammate, inflicting non-negligible damage and actually pressuring it on its next switch-in. We don't see this with the Slowtwins. Players are often forced to make risky switches to offensive Pokemon to try and prevent Future Sight, while risking their Dragapult / Rillaboom / Zeraora / Tapu Koko / whatever other revenge killer being crippled to a Scald burn - or just losing momentum as they click Teleport. The reward associated with clicking Teleport, as compared to the risk, is astronomical when compounded with Regenerator.

So why not just switch to a defensive Pokemon? It's not a huge deal to lose momentum on their Teleport when you already have a defensive answer in, right? This is where the element of Future Sight comes in, and where the Slowtwins are pushed over the edge for me. Future Sight has seen viable usage in OU for the first time because of its unparalleled offensive utility and ability to force progress like nothing else when paired with a wallbreaker. By hitting a defensive Pokemon twice in one turn, especially because of its ability to hit on the special side, Future Sight + wallbreakers like Kartana, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, Weavile lose most of their reliable defensive counterplay. I don't really think I need to talk more about this. I build stall pretty often and am forced to use outlandish techs like Shedinja, Substitute Blissey, Protect Tangrowth, etc. to help prevent Future Sight + wallbreakers KOing a Pokemon every time they come in... and even these techs can be pressured quite easily. There is simply no reliable counterplay to this combo. In addition to the Teleport mechanics changing, I think there are a couple more reasons why we see Future Sight so often this gen. Here's the main point I wanted to make with this post. By removing any ways to reliably punish switches in gen 8 (see: Heavy-Duty Boots, Pursuit deletion), players are forced to resort to other options like trapping and Future Sight to force progress.

I would be down for either a Future Sight + Teleport complex ban, targeting the riskless Future Sight passing, or a Regenerator + Teleport complex ban, targeting riskless pivoting altogether, for the reasons I outlined above. By letting the Slowtwins themselves be and leaving a hard Future Sight ban alone, we can both preserve Slowking's use as a great special wall this gen (MAN i just want more tran checks) and Future Sight's niche use, as seen by Reuniclus, Galarian Slowking, and Tapu Lele, without unpunishable pivoting given by the Slowtwins.

Other resources:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heavy-duty-boots.3667472/ - pretty in-depth PR thread about boots a while back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-545738 - Serene Grace vs John W, SPL week 8
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-544656 - Eo vs Sacri', SPL week 7
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-551431 - talah vs John W, SPL finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559113 - CKW vs youngsterjoeyv69, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560192 - Floss vs kahili, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559244 - Roseybear vs austriangeorge, WCOP qualifiers
any other john w / eo / 100p replays

Archer Kirby magma storm post soon
What benefit is a complex ban over just banning Slowking/bro, if the issue is as dire as you make it out to be? It just seems unnecessarily convoluted when AFAIK the slowtwins are the only ones with Teleport, Future Sight, and Regen

Edit: To be clear, I don't think Slowtwins are broken/uncompetitive
 
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:bw/slowbro::bw/slowking:

Congrats to Slowking on its new S tier spot. I wanted to discuss what I see as one of the biggest problems in this metagame, and possibly offer a solution... there are many directions to take regarding action taken against Future Sight / Teleport / Regenerator, but I honestly feel that a complex ban is the best way to resolve this problem without disrupting the rest of the metagame - I will elaborate more below.

Cutting right to the chase - Teleport + Regenerator is uncompetitive, as outlined by the tiering policy framework here. By taking out any possible risk associated with switching, using any offensive switch-in for momentum via Teleport or defensive answer for extreme offensive support in the form of Future Sight, opposing players have to get repeated risky 50-50s correct to maintain any sort of momentum and not be heavily punished. The main problem with the Slowtwins that differentiates them from other Teleport users, as I see it, is Regenerator, which lets them benefit from stealing momentum and giving them longevity while giving them the option to never actually waste a turn - and their momentum - using Slack Off. When we saw other Teleport users like Wish + Teleport Clefable pre-DLC, there was at least the option to attack it while it Teleports to its teammate, inflicting non-negligible damage and actually pressuring it on its next switch-in. We don't see this with the Slowtwins. Players are often forced to make risky switches to offensive Pokemon to try and prevent Future Sight, while risking their Dragapult / Rillaboom / Zeraora / Tapu Koko / whatever other revenge killer being crippled to a Scald burn - or just losing momentum as they click Teleport. The reward associated with clicking Teleport, as compared to the risk, is astronomical when compounded with Regenerator.

So why not just switch to a defensive Pokemon? It's not a huge deal to lose momentum on their Teleport when you already have a defensive answer in, right? This is where the element of Future Sight comes in, and where the Slowtwins are pushed over the edge for me. Future Sight has seen viable usage in OU for the first time because of its unparalleled offensive utility and ability to force progress like nothing else when paired with a wallbreaker. By hitting a defensive Pokemon twice in one turn, especially because of its ability to hit on the special side, Future Sight + wallbreakers like Kartana, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, Weavile lose most of their reliable defensive counterplay. I don't really think I need to talk more about this. I build stall pretty often and am forced to use outlandish techs like Shedinja, Substitute Blissey, Protect Tangrowth, etc. to help prevent Future Sight + wallbreakers KOing a Pokemon every time they come in... and even these techs can be pressured quite easily. There is simply no reliable counterplay to this combo. In addition to the Teleport mechanics changing, I think there are a couple more reasons why we see Future Sight so often this gen. Here's the main point I wanted to make with this post. By removing any ways to reliably punish switches in gen 8 (see: Heavy-Duty Boots, Pursuit deletion), players are forced to resort to other options like trapping and Future Sight to force progress.

I would be down for either a Future Sight + Teleport complex ban, targeting the riskless Future Sight passing, or a Regenerator + Teleport complex ban, targeting riskless pivoting altogether, for the reasons I outlined above. By letting the Slowtwins themselves be and leaving a hard Future Sight ban alone, we can both preserve Slowking's use as a great special wall this gen (MAN i just want more tran checks) and Future Sight's niche use, as seen by Reuniclus, Galarian Slowking, and Tapu Lele, without unpunishable pivoting given by the Slowtwins.

Other resources:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heavy-duty-boots.3667472/ - pretty in-depth PR thread about boots a while back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-545738 - Serene Grace vs John W, SPL week 8
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-544656 - Eo vs Sacri', SPL week 7
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-551431 - talah vs John W, SPL finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559113 - CKW vs youngsterjoeyv69, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560192 - Floss vs kahili, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559244 - Roseybear vs austriangeorge, WCOP qualifiers
any other john w / eo / 100p replays

Archer Kirby magma storm post soon
"By letting the Slowtwins themselves be and leaving a hard Future Sight ban alone, we can both preserve Slowking's use as a great special wall this gen (MAN i just want more tran checks) "

At least we gave away the game by saying that we like slowtwins, so we'll just get rid of what makes at really strong so it stays OU. I really don't understand why people think these guys are owed being OU and not ubers. I'm not even convinced they are broken but there should never be a complex ban because "we want to preserve the pokemon in OU" or because "we love tran checks".

Teleport + Regen
This literally limits it to slowtwins + slowpoke so honestly this is just admitting slowtwins are broken but I want to keep them in OU. Nobody is going to use slowpoke after these things (hypothetically) go.

Teleport + Future Sight
You even explain in your post, and it has been explained several times that teleport + future sight isn't really notable on anyone who doesn't have regen (aka the slowtwins).

Conclusion
The only way to make a complex ban that would make sense is just to make it specific enough to only target the slowtwins, but that is missing the point of a complex ban vs a pokemon ban. These complex bans essentially destroy their kit and the literal only reason people use them. So y'all are just admitting that their kit is broken, but you don't want to ban the mon, just the kit, because you like slowking. This is the equivalent of doing something like banning fishous rend + strong jaw or gorilla tactics + a choice item. These suggestions would rightfully be laughed off as ridiculous, but because slowking and slowbro have never been anywhere close to being ban worthy, the mentality has stuck that they shouldn't be uber, but they received a lot of buffs this gen so that mentality doesn't really work.

This is a completely nonsensical idea, that would make Smogon look incredibly dumb to anyone thinking through the complex ban and would make Smogon even less consistent than they are already.
 
:bw/slowbro::bw/slowking:

Congrats to Slowking on its new S tier spot. I wanted to discuss what I see as one of the biggest problems in this metagame, and possibly offer a solution... there are many directions to take regarding action taken against Future Sight / Teleport / Regenerator, but I honestly feel that a complex ban is the best way to resolve this problem without disrupting the rest of the metagame - I will elaborate more below.

Cutting right to the chase - Teleport + Regenerator is uncompetitive, as outlined by the tiering policy framework here. By taking out any possible risk associated with switching, using any offensive switch-in for momentum via Teleport or defensive answer for extreme offensive support in the form of Future Sight, opposing players have to get repeated risky 50-50s correct to maintain any sort of momentum and not be heavily punished. The main problem with the Slowtwins that differentiates them from other Teleport users, as I see it, is Regenerator, which lets them benefit from stealing momentum and giving them longevity while giving them the option to never actually waste a turn - and their momentum - using Slack Off. When we saw other Teleport users like Wish + Teleport Clefable pre-DLC, there was at least the option to attack it while it Teleports to its teammate, inflicting non-negligible damage and actually pressuring it on its next switch-in. We don't see this with the Slowtwins. Players are often forced to make risky switches to offensive Pokemon to try and prevent Future Sight, while risking their Dragapult / Rillaboom / Zeraora / Tapu Koko / whatever other revenge killer being crippled to a Scald burn - or just losing momentum as they click Teleport. The reward associated with clicking Teleport, as compared to the risk, is astronomical when compounded with Regenerator.

So why not just switch to a defensive Pokemon? It's not a huge deal to lose momentum on their Teleport when you already have a defensive answer in, right? This is where the element of Future Sight comes in, and where the Slowtwins are pushed over the edge for me. Future Sight has seen viable usage in OU for the first time because of its unparalleled offensive utility and ability to force progress like nothing else when paired with a wallbreaker. By hitting a defensive Pokemon twice in one turn, especially because of its ability to hit on the special side, Future Sight + wallbreakers like Kartana, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, Weavile lose most of their reliable defensive counterplay. I don't really think I need to talk more about this. I build stall pretty often and am forced to use outlandish techs like Shedinja, Substitute Blissey, Protect Tangrowth, etc. to help prevent Future Sight + wallbreakers KOing a Pokemon every time they come in... and even these techs can be pressured quite easily. There is simply no reliable counterplay to this combo. In addition to the Teleport mechanics changing, I think there are a couple more reasons why we see Future Sight so often this gen. Here's the main point I wanted to make with this post. By removing any ways to reliably punish switches in gen 8 (see: Heavy-Duty Boots, Pursuit deletion), players are forced to resort to other options like trapping and Future Sight to force progress.

I would be down for either a Future Sight + Teleport complex ban, targeting the riskless Future Sight passing, or a Regenerator + Teleport complex ban, targeting riskless pivoting altogether, for the reasons I outlined above. By letting the Slowtwins themselves be and leaving a hard Future Sight ban alone, we can both preserve Slowking's use as a great special wall this gen (MAN i just want more tran checks) and Future Sight's niche use, as seen by Reuniclus, Galarian Slowking, and Tapu Lele, without unpunishable pivoting given by the Slowtwins.

Other resources:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heavy-duty-boots.3667472/ - pretty in-depth PR thread about boots a while back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-545738 - Serene Grace vs John W, SPL week 8
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-544656 - Eo vs Sacri', SPL week 7
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-551431 - talah vs John W, SPL finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559113 - CKW vs youngsterjoeyv69, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560192 - Floss vs kahili, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559244 - Roseybear vs austriangeorge, WCOP qualifiers
any other john w / eo / 100p replays

Archer Kirby magma storm post soon
I think this post presents a competent idea, but surrounds it too much around the slowtwins in general.
The avenue that should be taken with this kind of theory would be that x + y elements are uncompetitive, but not individually, which is something i personally believe can be true.

To present a complex ban which is trying to change the status quo for smogon as a whole would be to represent that the strategy in and of itself is broken and/or uncompetitive.

Is regenerator with teleport uncompetitive? Your post suggests this idea, but surrounds it with so many other elements of the slowtwin's game plan that it really just seems like an attempt to "nerf" them while still keeping them in the metagame, which overall discredits one of the points you're trying to put out.

Regen and teleport in my opinion are not uncompetitive together, hazards in general are a component that massively inpedes this strategy by dealing continous switchin damage. Now obviously heavy-duty boots are a major item this generation which eliminates this gameplan.

So what's our option? A complex ban on Regen+Tport and boots?

As much as the phrase is overused, this is a slippery slope. The problem in and of itself here is the combination of so many different elements that the slowtwins have that makes them absolutely the best abusers of this strategy, even if there would be others.
Regenerator, teleport, holding boots, access to stab future sight, great defensive typing, great hp stat (which boosts the effects of regenerator), great one sided defensive stats. THESE ARE THE ELEMENTS that make the slowtwins "too much". Remove one or two of these elements and the slowtwins are so much less valuable than they were, and would barely be considered at the point where they are imo.

thanks for listening to the rant, hope this was coherent
 
:bw/slowbro::bw/slowking:

Congrats to Slowking on its new S tier spot. I wanted to discuss what I see as one of the biggest problems in this metagame, and possibly offer a solution... there are many directions to take regarding action taken against Future Sight / Teleport / Regenerator, but I honestly feel that a complex ban is the best way to resolve this problem without disrupting the rest of the metagame - I will elaborate more below.

Cutting right to the chase - Teleport + Regenerator is uncompetitive, as outlined by the tiering policy framework here. By taking out any possible risk associated with switching, using any offensive switch-in for momentum via Teleport or defensive answer for extreme offensive support in the form of Future Sight, opposing players have to get repeated risky 50-50s correct to maintain any sort of momentum and not be heavily punished. The main problem with the Slowtwins that differentiates them from other Teleport users, as I see it, is Regenerator, which lets them benefit from stealing momentum and giving them longevity while giving them the option to never actually waste a turn - and their momentum - using Slack Off. When we saw other Teleport users like Wish + Teleport Clefable pre-DLC, there was at least the option to attack it while it Teleports to its teammate, inflicting non-negligible damage and actually pressuring it on its next switch-in. We don't see this with the Slowtwins. Players are often forced to make risky switches to offensive Pokemon to try and prevent Future Sight, while risking their Dragapult / Rillaboom / Zeraora / Tapu Koko / whatever other revenge killer being crippled to a Scald burn - or just losing momentum as they click Teleport. The reward associated with clicking Teleport, as compared to the risk, is astronomical when compounded with Regenerator.

So why not just switch to a defensive Pokemon? It's not a huge deal to lose momentum on their Teleport when you already have a defensive answer in, right? This is where the element of Future Sight comes in, and where the Slowtwins are pushed over the edge for me. Future Sight has seen viable usage in OU for the first time because of its unparalleled offensive utility and ability to force progress like nothing else when paired with a wallbreaker. By hitting a defensive Pokemon twice in one turn, especially because of its ability to hit on the special side, Future Sight + wallbreakers like Kartana, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, Weavile lose most of their reliable defensive counterplay. I don't really think I need to talk more about this. I build stall pretty often and am forced to use outlandish techs like Shedinja, Substitute Blissey, Protect Tangrowth, etc. to help prevent Future Sight + wallbreakers KOing a Pokemon every time they come in... and even these techs can be pressured quite easily. There is simply no reliable counterplay to this combo. In addition to the Teleport mechanics changing, I think there are a couple more reasons why we see Future Sight so often this gen. Here's the main point I wanted to make with this post. By removing any ways to reliably punish switches in gen 8 (see: Heavy-Duty Boots, Pursuit deletion), players are forced to resort to other options like trapping and Future Sight to force progress.

I would be down for either a Future Sight + Teleport complex ban, targeting the riskless Future Sight passing, or a Regenerator + Teleport complex ban, targeting riskless pivoting altogether, for the reasons I outlined above. By letting the Slowtwins themselves be and leaving a hard Future Sight ban alone, we can both preserve Slowking's use as a great special wall this gen (MAN i just want more tran checks) and Future Sight's niche use, as seen by Reuniclus, Galarian Slowking, and Tapu Lele, without unpunishable pivoting given by the Slowtwins.

Other resources:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heavy-duty-boots.3667472/ - pretty in-depth PR thread about boots a while back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-545738 - Serene Grace vs John W, SPL week 8
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-544656 - Eo vs Sacri', SPL week 7
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-551431 - talah vs John W, SPL finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559113 - CKW vs youngsterjoeyv69, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560192 - Floss vs kahili, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559244 - Roseybear vs austriangeorge, WCOP qualifiers
any other john w / eo / 100p replays

Archer Kirby magma storm post soon

I'm going to just directly challenge the assumption here that teleporting is riskless, clicking future sight is riskless, the combination of both being used across two turns is riskless and honestly the vast majority of all the very prominently bolded text. Felt like I was reading the essay version of star wipe transitions on a powerpoint and it personally offended me. I'm also just using this post as a means to argue against any post like it such as the two directly above me who seem to think the Slowtwins are broken but just disagree with your ban proposals. Nothing against you personally airfare lol

Cutting right to the chase - Teleport + Regenerator is uncompetitive, as outlined by the tiering policy framework here. By taking out any possible risk associated with switching, using any offensive switch-in for momentum via Teleport or defensive answer for extreme offensive support in the form of Future Sight, opposing players have to get repeated risky 50-50s correct to maintain any sort of momentum and not be heavily punished. The main problem with the Slowtwins that differentiates them from other Teleport users, as I see it, is Regenerator, which lets them benefit from stealing momentum and giving them longevity while giving them the option to never actually waste a turn - and their momentum - using Slack Off. When we saw other Teleport users like Wish + Teleport Clefable pre-DLC, there was at least the option to attack it while it Teleports to its teammate, inflicting non-negligible damage and actually pressuring it on its next switch-in. We don't see this with the Slowtwins. Players are often forced to make risky switches to offensive Pokemon to try and prevent Future Sight, while risking their Dragapult / Rillaboom / Zeraora / Tapu Koko / whatever other revenge killer being crippled to a Scald burn - or just losing momentum as they click Teleport. The reward associated with clicking Teleport, as compared to the risk, is astronomical when compounded with Regenerator.
The 50/50s being referenced are not actually that risky or abnormal outside of a regular game state in which sight or port did not exist in the first place and the examples given aren't that great either. The examples given to support the argument of this paragraph are a loss in momentum and potential scald burn. The loss in momentum could also be attributed to any sort of slow pivot in the meta so I really do not believe this is an issue and considering your preferred ban suggestions you do not see it as an issue either. Longevity is annoying sure but it always has been and the crux of this post hones in on future sight so I can presume this is more of a fluff concern to bolster any arguments for some form of action being taken. If you really do believe the combination of having a slow pivoting pokemon with regenerator is broken by itself I honestly don't even know what to say. It ignores so many of the options available to shut down teleport as a move, or the pokemon that use it. I will expand upon this below.

Risky switchins of the aforementioned pokemon do carry with them a risk of a scald burn this is true, however the buzzword of the paragraph "risk" is incredibly disproportionate here and ignoring the broader picture of any SS OU game you would play versus standard Future Sight builds. They're referred to as future sight builds because of how absolutely crucial the move is for many of these teams that attempt to abuse it to have it up at all times to facilitate whatever breaker they have paired it with. This exponentially decreases your risk when switching in already, specifically with free pivots mons on the slowtwins (Uturn Koko, Rilla,Pult), Mons that have recovery to easily absorb the burn and recover it off (roost koko for something offensive specifically), choice locked breakers that can overwhelm Slowking and force it out to make progress versus the opposing teams defensive core (Specs Pult, Banded Bisharp, Specs Koko, etc.....). Burn can be annoying, especially for a physical breaker, but how many slowking teams, which almost always require sight to be up to pose significant threat offensively remember, can afford to fish for a 30% versus an incredibly strong breaker, lose all momentum by doing so, and now open themselves up to any numerous of threats on the opponents team. This entire argument looks at it in isolation and completely ignores the actual complexities of playing a pokemon game off paper in Gen 8 OU. This is also a problem with how generally speaking people build for the tier at the moment but hey, different post for different strokes.

So why not just switch to a defensive Pokemon? It's not a huge deal to lose momentum on their Teleport when you already have a defensive answer in, right? This is where the element of Future Sight comes in, and where the Slowtwins are pushed over the edge for me. Future Sight has seen viable usage in OU for the first time because of its unparalleled offensive utility and ability to force progress like nothing else when paired with a wallbreaker. By hitting a defensive Pokemon twice in one turn, especially because of its ability to hit on the special side, Future Sight + wallbreakers like Kartana, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, Weavile lose most of their reliable defensive counterplay. I don't really think I need to talk more about this. I build stall pretty often and am forced to use outlandish techs like Shedinja, Substitute Blissey, Protect Tangrowth, etc. to help prevent Future Sight + wallbreakers KOing a Pokemon every time they come in... and even these techs can be pressured quite easily. There is simply no reliable counterplay to this combo. In addition to the Teleport mechanics changing, I think there are a couple more reasons why we see Future Sight so often this gen. Here's the main point I wanted to make with this post. By removing any ways to reliably punish switches in gen 8 (see: Heavy-Duty Boots, Pursuit deletion), players are forced to resort to other options like trapping and Future Sight to force progress.
Defensive counterplay to this combo is under explored and a lot of times just outright ignored. For balance you can use something as simple as a Toxic Toxapex to put Slowking on a clock while also never being able to die or be threatened out by the mon itself. In fact you force it out. Substitute being run can avoid some of the major damage caused if you aren't consistently on the back foot. Protect on pokemon like Tangrowth is hardly outlandish, Tang has 4 moveslots and you can most definitely drop sleep powder for protect on certain builds. It would even help for scouting versus the plethora of choice locked breakers in the tier like Dragapult for example. For the breakers you mentioned, you're correct in saying they lose some of their defensive counterplay, not most. Weavile will still struggle to break anything unless its banded and now you have a non-boots ice type on a team with a future sight pivot who cant afford to give away hazard setting turns to Clefable/Ferro/Pert. Urshifu-R struggles extremely heavily versus any form of helmet or barbs switchin and is rather easily revenged but again, this is a mon that won't 2hko you 9 times out 10 for switching in to it and then is immediately forced out due to its switchins also being so threatening to it or forcing a risk scenario for you to weigh on essentially losing one of your primary breakers for heavily chipping one defensive mon or saving it and trying again later. Similar goes for Bisharp and Kartana. Kart more specifically also struggles mightily versus the faster options in the tier as far as revenging is concerned and unless banded will once again struggle to break in time without killing itself to get that future sight progress. There is plenty of counter play to this combo it is merely being ignored or called bad despite having significant merit elsewhere. I won't lie and say it hasn't made stall builds pretty hard to come to the fore but its just another offensive option. The breakers who are being facilitate additionally by sight are largely excellent stall and wall breakers without sight anyways. These pokemon make progress significantly by themselves, we are not "resorting" to future sight and trapping to force progress

I'm going to comment on the supporting replays, no offense to anyone involved intended.

SPL Replays said:
This playstyle was only truly being developed fully for the first two games highlighted here during this tour and it highlights a lack of preparedness for the style and misrepresents the advantages and disadvantages of the play style. Not to mention both Serene and Sacri lacked any meaningful way of pressuring slowking without first requiring a turn to setup the advantage i.e. Status Hex Pult

Sacri got crit by future sight on his skarm early, sacked his garchomp to a nidoking, sacked his toxapex to a nidoking, will-o-wispd a scarf tran twice, and brought the bad dragapult. He did all this while running into a Nidoking, a Kartana, and a Heal Beller. Even without the one future sight crit, it did absolutely nothing this game and was going to continue to do so had it went on any longer cause Eo's matchup was just insurmountable once Sacri loaded up with a Dragapult that couldn't actually beat or pressure any of its switchins.

Serene unfortunately ran into a similar problem and just had no feesibly consistent way of pressuring the slowking due to running into a Heal Bell mon with the bad pult. He also managed future sight and port all game pretty effortlessly and I wouldn't call this a highlight of any problems with archetype. If anything it showcases the flaws and what could have been. Especially considering Serene is running literally one mon that can switch in to bisharp. The rest all die in one or become next to useless after a knock alone.

Talah literally wins that game if he doesn't throw the end game. Admitting so himself. Slowking did nothing meaningful all game.

wcop quals replays said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559113 - CKW vs youngsterjoeyv69, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560192 - Floss vs kahili, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559244 - Roseybear vs austriangeorge, WCOP qualifiers
CKW vs Joey, FAIRLY certain future sight did absolutely nothing to prevent the onslaught that Weavile was always going to bring to a team where the only switchin is Heatran. This replay also shows how mediocre this strategy is fast becoming when your opponent just has standard.com switchins to your breakers and a way to fuck over slowking.

Floss lost using future port versus do nothing 5 slow mons and a torn. Future ports supposed to be designed to beat these builds that rely on pex to beat its break and yet it still couldn't due to pressure on the Slowking. PP stalling it, then Toxicing it with Torn rendered the strategy mute. It also helps that somehow Floss conspired to bring a Future Port team that can't break Pex+Zera answer. Perfect example of defensive counterplay for these builds however. Even if I do hate both teams on display in this replay.

Rosey 100% lost this game if austriangeorge did not lose brain cells from what I can only assume was the copious amounts of cocaine the Austrians were hopped up on while beating down Team UK in qualifiers. This game actually highlights the deficiencies of Future Sight versus sub setup sweepers, even ones who traditionally slowking would have hard walled due to its typing and other psychic stab moves.


If you want further evidence to suggest future port is fine, look to more of the tour play since players have began adapting to it/not using garbage Dragapult sets. Slowking sits at a 22% win rate across wcop qualifiers round 2, JYT recently knocked out 2 tournament favourites Soulwind and Xray out of SmogTour by toxicing their Slowtwins making all their Future Sights meaningless and just the general shift away from using the style as a whole. It was great when it was popularised initially, but its nowhere near what it was even if it does still remain a viable and potent matchup. This is nowhere near overbearing enough to warrant a complex ban or a ban of any kind.
 
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airfare said:
:bw/slowbro::bw/slowking:

Congrats to Slowking on its new S tier spot. I wanted to discuss what I see as one of the biggest problems in this metagame, and possibly offer a solution... there are many directions to take regarding action taken against Future Sight / Teleport / Regenerator, but I honestly feel that a complex ban is the best way to resolve this problem without disrupting the rest of the metagame - I will elaborate more below.

Cutting right to the chase - Teleport + Regenerator is uncompetitive, as outlined by the tiering policy framework here. By taking out any possible risk associated with switching, using any offensive switch-in for momentum via Teleport or defensive answer for extreme offensive support in the form of Future Sight, opposing players have to get repeated risky 50-50s correct to maintain any sort of momentum and not be heavily punished. The main problem with the Slowtwins that differentiates them from other Teleport users, as I see it, is Regenerator, which lets them benefit from stealing momentum and giving them longevity while giving them the option to never actually waste a turn - and their momentum - using Slack Off. When we saw other Teleport users like Wish + Teleport Clefable pre-DLC, there was at least the option to attack it while it Teleports to its teammate, inflicting non-negligible damage and actually pressuring it on its next switch-in. We don't see this with the Slowtwins. Players are often forced to make risky switches to offensive Pokemon to try and prevent Future Sight, while risking their Dragapult / Rillaboom / Zeraora / Tapu Koko / whatever other revenge killer being crippled to a Scald burn - or just losing momentum as they click Teleport. The reward associated with clicking Teleport, as compared to the risk, is astronomical when compounded with Regenerator.

So why not just switch to a defensive Pokemon? It's not a huge deal to lose momentum on their Teleport when you already have a defensive answer in, right? This is where the element of Future Sight comes in, and where the Slowtwins are pushed over the edge for me. Future Sight has seen viable usage in OU for the first time because of its unparalleled offensive utility and ability to force progress like nothing else when paired with a wallbreaker. By hitting a defensive Pokemon twice in one turn, especially because of its ability to hit on the special side, Future Sight + wallbreakers like Kartana, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, Weavile lose most of their reliable defensive counterplay. I don't really think I need to talk more about this. I build stall pretty often and am forced to use outlandish techs like Shedinja, Substitute Blissey, Protect Tangrowth, etc. to help prevent Future Sight + wallbreakers KOing a Pokemon every time they come in... and even these techs can be pressured quite easily. There is simply no reliable counterplay to this combo. In addition to the Teleport mechanics changing, I think there are a couple more reasons why we see Future Sight so often this gen. Here's the main point I wanted to make with this post. By removing any ways to reliably punish switches in gen 8 (see: Heavy-Duty Boots, Pursuit deletion), players are forced to resort to other options like trapping and Future Sight to force progress.

I would be down for either a Future Sight + Teleport complex ban, targeting the riskless Future Sight passing, or a Regenerator + Teleport complex ban, targeting riskless pivoting altogether, for the reasons I outlined above. By letting the Slowtwins themselves be and leaving a hard Future Sight ban alone, we can both preserve Slowking's use as a great special wall this gen (MAN i just want more tran checks) and Future Sight's niche use, as seen by Reuniclus, Galarian Slowking, and Tapu Lele, without unpunishable pivoting given by the Slowtwins.

Other resources:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heavy-duty-boots.3667472/ - pretty in-depth PR thread about boots a while back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-545738 - Serene Grace vs John W, SPL week 8
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-544656 - Eo vs Sacri', SPL week 7
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-551431 - talah vs John W, SPL finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559113 - CKW vs youngsterjoeyv69, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560192 - Floss vs kahili, WCOP qualifiers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-559244 - Roseybear vs austriangeorge, WCOP qualifiers
any other john w / eo / 100p replays

Archer Kirby magma storm post soon
First, let me say I appreciate the time you’ve put into this post. The slow twins are probably the most contentious issue in SS OU right now and will continue to be discussed until a suspect or something happens. However, that doesn’t mean that a suspect necessarily should happen and tbh I respectfully disagree with you on this matter.

Let’s ignore whether or not a complex ban is appropriate for now and consider if the slowtwins’ FuturePort shenanigans are actually broken/uncompetitive. I do accept that clicking Teleport on a mon with Regenerator is very difficult to punish, as it requires either Taunt or a strong move that does >60%. HDB make this even stronger by removing hazards as a way to reliably punish switching. However as Gingy outlined in the post above me, pairing Teleport with Future Sight essentially uses two turns as set up to force progress later, which means that you have an opportunity to bring in a mon that can threaten the slowtwin on the turn they use Future Sight, which allows you to prevent the Teleport and pressure the opponent’s team at the same time. The only way the slowtwin player can prevent this is by clicking Scald and hoping for the burn, as you mentioned. This does force the opposing player to make a risky switch into their offensive mon, but this is also risky for the slowtwin player. If they click Scald and don’t get the burn, or Future Sight predicting a defensive switch, they lose momentum and have to deal with a strong breaker. Eventually the slowtwin player may get the burn, but they have to do this before the opponent’s breaker destroys their team. So yes, this does force a bit of a 50-50, but I wouldn’t say it’s biased towards the slowtwin player.

Moving on to more defensive answers, I do agree with some of your points. Most defensive mons can only threaten with Toxic or some other status, which gives the slowtwins plenty of time to get FuturePort going. And of course Future Sight is very difficult to switch in to when paired with a strong breaker. One thing I would like to point out, though, is that sometimes, especially early game, you can turn this to your advantage. If the opponent clicks Future Sight, they are most likely going to click Teleport if you have a defensive mon out. This essentially gives you a free switch-but of course they can gain momentum with Teleport. However, you can use this turn to guide which breaker they bring out to take advantage of Future Sight-for example, switching to Swampert will bring out Rillaboom, and then you can double to Mandibuzz to absorb the Future Sight and wall Rillaboom. This is obviously risky and relies on careful prediction, but it lets you diffuse the FuturePort combo while gaining momentum. So while defensive counterplay to the slowtwins may be difficult, it certainly exists. Protect is also an option, as has been mentioned-and it’s by no means a dead weight on something like Ferrothorn or Tangrowth, which can also use it to scout the rampant Specs Dragapult.

The final argument I will make is that I do not think there is any grounds for a complex ban. Specifically designing a complex ban to nerf the slowtwins while keeping them in the tier goes completely against Smogon’s principles. The only reason you seem to have for banning some combination of Future Sight, Regenerator and Teleport over simply banning the slowtwins, is that you want to keep Slowking around to deal with Heatran, which seems pretty silly to me, especially given Slowking isn’t a particularly good answer to Heatran. If people truly think that Future Sight+Teleport+Regenerator is broken (which I personally don’t) then the slowtwins should be banned, rather than inventing some obscure complex ban to keep them in the tier.
 
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I'm going to just directly challenge the assumption here that teleporting is riskless, clicking future sight is riskless, the combination of both being used across two turns is riskless and honestly the vast majority of all the very prominently bolded text. Felt like I was reading the essay version of star wipe transitions on a powerpoint and it personally offended me. I'm also just using this post as a means to argue against any post like it such as the two directly above me who seem to think the Slowtwins are broken but just disagree with your ban proposals. Nothing against you personally airfare lol
[blip]

Rosey 100% lost this game if austriangeorge did not lose brain cells from what I can only assume was the copious amounts of cocaine the Austrians were hopped up on while beating down Team UK in qualifiers. This game actually highlights the deficiencies of Future Sight versus sub setup sweepers, even ones who traditionally slowking would have hard walled due to its typing and other psychic stab moves.


If you want further evidence to suggest future port is fine, look to more of the tour play since players have began adapting to it/not using garbage Dragapult sets. Slowking sits at a 22% win rate across wcop qualifiers round 2, JYT recently knocked out 2 tournament favourites Soulwind and Xray out of SmogTour by toxicing their Slowtwins making all their Future Sights meaningless and just the general shift away from using the style as a whole. It was great when it was popularised initially, but its nowhere near what it was even if it does still remain a viable and potent matchup. This is nowhere near overbearing enough to warrant a complex ban or a ban of any kind.
First of all, your comment on the last game made me laugh. (No offense to austriangeorge, I'm sure you're a great person). I'm now wondering if certain drugs may enhance play, and if we need to crack down on doping-
but thats a diff talk

Today when I woke up i realized i could check the slowtwin's winrate and uhhh
22% win rate is nowhere near broken
FLASHBACK (From definition of uncompetitive):
" They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. "
A 22% winrate uhhhh yeah, that basically refutes this hypothesis (albeit a small sample, but it's still quite low- I could do statistics to get a confidence interval here but I'm lazy lol)
 
I think that if for some reason the council decides to take action about teleport. The most optimal thing would be ban the slow twins, why, well banning move or abilities isnt done because one or potencially two abusers, is done when the move or ability is an issue it self. Like if we see lets say blaziken, the reason why they didnt ban speed boost was because blaziken was the issue, because ninjask well, yea the ability wasnt the issue. But back to teleport, while is annoying, other stuff like boots complements this even further, every pivot like Zeraora, koko, Pult and the regens mons become so disgusting because of this. This a very Complex situation that needs to be discussed with a proper analysis before taking action.
 

ausma

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I really, really dislike the idea that we should be complexly banning specific aspects of the Slowtwin FuturePort strategy. The key reason I am of this stance is that the Slowtwins are the only two Pokemon actually capable of using it to a considerably problematic degree in the first place, or even at all. It is imperative to consider that the reason the strategy the Slowtwins employ is so effective is that their one-of-a-kind combination of tools at their disposal completely mitigates the opportunity costs behind each component.

Regenerator + Teleport is the only fallible combination that could be reasonably argued for this issue in my opinion as it compresses both healing and pivoting at the same time and invalidates any kind of opportunity cost that the Slowtwins may otherwise have (though Future Sight is an insanely synergistic complement that makes them incredible for offenses). However, the Slowtwins are the only ones that actually have access to the combination, which makes the idea of a complex ban all the more peculiar to me since there's a very easy, cleaner alternative toward addressing them that doesn't open up a dangerous door for tiering policy. What point is there in complex banning Regenerator + Teleport when it is far, far cleaner to just suspect the Slowtwins? It makes no sense to do anything of that sort other than to arbitrarily maintain pieces of the metagame, which is a really dangerous motive and one that can easily enable the justification of other kinds of complex bans.

Likewise, I also dislike the idea of other complex bans that do include combinations of moves/abilities that other Pokemon have, such as Future Sight + Teleport, or Future Sight + Regenerator. Future Sight in tandem with the aforementioned traits is also a reinforcing factor that lets the Slowtwins enforce progress in a terrifying, effective way that no other Pokemon utilizing Regenerator, Future Sight, or Teleport on their own or in pairs is capable of doing on their own, but again, only the Slowtwins have access to all three. For example, Claydol may have access to Future Sight and Teleport, but it's going to flatline a lot more harshly since it lacks any kind of recovery or any ability to offset potential pressure put onto it, possibly even fainting before it can do what it's aiming to do. Future Sight + Regenerator is also not an inherently problematic combination as Slowking-Galar and Reuniclus are Pokemon that outright lack momentum, basically making it so they have to make a risky switch to position an abuser, which could risk dangerous chip damage or status to the abuser without smart, deliberate maneuvering from the player.

Furthermore, each individual component that drives the Slowtwins' strategy is not the issue, either. Regenerator alone is clearly not the problem, neither is Future Sight (for reasons I really don't think I need to explain). Some people argue Teleport is an issue, but it really isn't, as using it means your Pokemon has to use it on a switch to not risk key chip damage or status. Blissey and Clefable, arguably the other best abusers of Teleport, for instance, are clearly not problematic; their HP thresholds are incredibly important to their gameplan, and Teleport risks damage that can easily stack up over time and either be forced to heal or sustain further damage, both options of which can easily be telegraphed and exploited.

In my eyes, to address the FuturePort issue, we would have to suspect the Slowtwins. Although I am not wholly decided on my stance on if this is the way to improve the metagame, most other alternatives either do not consider the key reason why the Slowtwins are able to use this strategy so reliably in the first place or open up unnecessary fallacies in tiering policy.

About Tyranitar and Mandibuzz:

While I'm here, I've seen some people say that Tyranitar and Mandibuzz are unviable in the metagame, and while I do believe they are outclassed in their roles by other Pokemon, to say that they do not have their place or the ability to compress/cover roles for teams is blatantly wrong. Mandibuzz being able to stifle Kartana and Rillaboom, dissuade Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Excadrill, forcing Dragapult to gamble its choice in moves, and compressing Defog definitely makes it a worthy choice for teams in need of a bit more Dragapult counterplay, with some neat attributes of its own to boast. I think it can be really overwhelmed and I don't see it as a defensive staple by any means, but it can work for teams that are willing to take some heat from Dragapult or Knock Off to ease the pressure off of it. Tyranitar is also a Sand setter capable of checking Volcarona and Kyurem far more reliably than Hippowdon, while also providing a short-term check to Dragapult; again, it's similar to Mandibuzz in the sense that it can definitely help a lot if you have Pokemon to spread the pressure in spite of its shortcomings. I agree that they aren't the best, but to call them unviable or terrible is not true whatsoever.
 
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I really, really dislike the idea that we should be complexly banning specific aspects of the Slowtwin FuturePort strategy. The key reason I am of this stance is that the Slowtwins are the only two Pokemon actually capable of using it to a considerably problematic degree in the first place. It is imperative to consider that the reason the strategy the Slowtwins employ is so effective is that their one-of-a-kind combination of tools at their disposal completely mitigates opportunity costs. Regenerator + Teleport is the only fallible combination that could be reasonably argued for this issue in my opinion as it compresses both healing and pivoting at the same time and invalidates any kind of opportunity cost that the Slowtwins may otherwise have (though Future Sight is an insanely synergistic complement that makes them incredible for offenses). However, the Slowtwins are the only ones that actually have access to the combination, which makes the idea of a complex ban all the more peculiar to me since there's a very easy, cleaner alternative toward addressing them that doesn't open up a dangerous door for tiering policy. What point is there in complex banning Regenerator + Teleport when it is far, far cleaner to just suspect the Slowtwins? It makes no sense to do anything of that sort other than to arbitrarily maintain pieces of the metagame, which is a really dangerous motive and one that can easily enable the justification of other kinds of complex bans.

Likewise, I also dislike the idea of other complex bans that do include combinations of moves/abilities that other Pokemon have, such as Future Sight + Teleport, or Future Sight + Regenerator. Future Sight in tandem with the aforementioned traits is also a reinforcing factor that lets the Slowtwins enforce progress in a terrifying, effective way that no other Pokemon utilizing Regenerator, Future Sight, or Teleport on their own or in pairs is capable of doing on their own, but again, only the Slowtwins have access to all three. For example, Claydol may have access to Future Sight and Teleport, but it's going to flatline a lot more harshly since it lacks any kind of recovery or any ability to offset potential pressure put onto it, possibly even fainting before it can do what it's aiming to do. Future Sight + Regenerator is also not an inherently problematic combination as Slowking-Galar and Reuniclus are Pokemon that outright lack momentum, basically making it so they have to make a risky switch to position an abuser, which could risk dangerous chip damage or status to the abuser without smart, deliberate maneuvering from the player.

Furthermore, each individual component that drives the Slowtwins' strategy is not the issue, either. Regenerator alone is clearly not the problem, neither is Future Sight (for reasons I really don't think I need to explain). Some people argue Teleport is an issue, but it really isn't, as using it means your Pokemon has to use it on a switch to not risk key chip damage or status. Blissey and Clefable, arguably the other best abusers of Teleport, for instance, are clearly not problematic; their HP thresholds are incredibly important to their gameplan, and Teleport risks damage that can easily stack up over time and either be forced to heal or sustain further damage, both options of which can easily be telegraphed and exploited.

In my eyes, to address the FuturePort issue, we would have to suspect the Slowtwins. Although I am not wholly decided on my stance on if this is the way to improve the metagame, most other alternatives either do not consider the key reason why the Slowtwins are able to use this strategy so reliably in the first place or open up unnecessary fallacies in tiering policy.

About Tyranitar and Mandibuzz:

While I'm here, I've seen some people say that Tyranitar and Mandibuzz are unviable in the metagame, and while I do believe they are outclassed in their roles by other Pokemon, to say that they do not have their place or the ability to compress/cover roles for teams is blatantly wrong. Mandibuzz being able to stifle Kartana and Rillaboom, dissuade Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Excadrill, forcing Dragapult to gamble its choice in moves, and compressing Defog definitely makes it a worthy choice for teams in need of a bit more Dragapult counterplay, with some neat attributes of its own to boast. I think it can be really overwhelmed and I don't see it as a defensive staple by any means, it can work for teams that are willing to take some heat from Dragapult or Knock Off to ease the pressure off of it. Tyranitar is also a Sand setter capable of checking Volcarona and Kyurem far more reliably than Hippowdon, while also providing a short-term check to Dragapult; again, it's similar to Mandibuzz in the sense that it can definitely help a lot if you have Pokemon to spread the pressure in spite of its shortcomings. I agree that they aren't the best, but to call them unviable or terrible is not true whatsoever.
I agree, if I have to do something then I would consider the slow twins as the issue, and yea if we start making Complex ban like a move on certain pokemon, then we will end with something or make posible the argument of kyogre in OU without water moves or Zacian-C without physical move which is completely BS.
 
What point is there in complex banning Regenerator + Teleport when it is far, far cleaner to just suspect the Slowtwins?
When you say this it instantly reminds me of Blaziken in previous generations. Where I don't think Blaze Blaziken was banworthy but with speedboost it was, and yet the tiering policy didn't simply ban the ability to use Flare Blitz and HJK and Protect/Swords with Speed boost lol. What was done was simply banning the mon. But if you banned the combination of Protect or Swords Dance with Speed Boost, then perhaps Blaziken would have been fine in that XY meta but that isn't generally how Smogon does things.

"With those two points in mind (that getting at least a single Speed Boost is trivial and at least a single Swords Dance is usually not an issue) it's clear that it's nearly impossible to stop a +2 Attack and +1 Speed, 339 Attack and 284 Speed, and STAB on both Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick Pokemon from sweeping the majority of the metagame. "

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-blaziken-and-deoxys-n.3492497/
 
I don’t want to fully re-hash all the same points that have been made a dozen times in this thread already, so I’ll just weigh in with my personal opinion on the potential “broken element” in the metagame and try to keep it brief.

A lot of people seem to think future sight is enabling certain breakers to the point that it is unhealthy for the metagame and also that there are too many of these breakers being enabled to realistically ban all of them. I have to agree that banning all the mons which benefit hugely from future sight support just isn’t going to work. That would be a massive tiering undertaking that would turn the metagame on its head. Other options would involve banning some combination of teleport/future sight/regenerator. It’s clear that there are viable mons with regen + future sight (Reuniclus and Galar Slowking come to mind) which are not broken by any stretch of the imagination and, I would argue, make a healthy contribution to the meta. On the other hand, banning teleport + future sight does not make sense when that would target unviable mons like Claydol and Beheeyem which are clearly not broken either. The final combination is banning regen + teleport/regen + teleport + future sight which, coincidentally, only involves banning Slowking, Slowbro, and their pre-evolution. This option makes the most sense because it has the least collateral damage to the metagame. However, it also exposes why this kind of complex ban is entirely unnecessary. If we believe there is a broken element to these three tools being used in conjunction, then obviously Slowbro and Slowking should be suspect tested as these are the only mons which would be affected by a potential complex ban anyway. As a general line of thinking, Smogon should stay far away from any complex bans in all but the most extreme of circumstances because they unnecessarily complicate OU’s ruleset. Moreover, there is no reason to preserve the Slowtwins out of fear of other mons becoming too powerful. Don’t use broken to check broken and if something like Heatran goes out of control after the Slowtwins are removed, it can be dealt with individually.

As a disclaimer, I’m not totally in support of banning the Slowtwins. I’m really on the fence about whether or not they are actually broken. I heavily dislike the impact they have on OU gameplay, but that doesn’t immediately mean something is broken just because it’s not fun. The point of this post was just to give my stance on what kind of tiering action should be taken here (if any action should be taken at all).
 

Katy

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View attachment 343101
How are people feeling about Volcorona? Healthy presence in the tier? High or low skill ceiling? I think it's obviously centralizing but it's not any more broken than ooga booga mons like Rillaboom where you just have to prep for them in the builder
I think Volcarona despite putting a certain pressure from teambuilding is a Pokemon, which is dealable with, we have a lot of strategies and Pokemon, which can effectively check or revengekill Volcarona. Pokemon like Thunder Wave Dragapult are still used to shut it down of its sweeping attempt. With Dragonite shooting up in usage and with its defensive Dragon Dance set and Heal Bell to cleric Flame Body burns and relaible recover in Roost and a great typing, it can actually deal very well with Volcarona due to its great typing and bulk and moreover its great ability Multiscale. Even Pokemon like Choice Band Urshifu-R can revengekill it with Aqua Jet. There are other Pokemon, which can deal with Volcarona, even specially defensive versions of Landorus-T can help versus Volcarona with strong STAB Earthquakes, even when Volcarona is the bulky version. Toxapex can still help against mono-fire-move Volcarona and even the offensive version with Haze to shut down its sweeping attempt. There are other Pokemon like Garchomp, potentially Tapu Fini, and Tornadus-T which can deal with it. And lastly and most importantly one of the best metagame staples in Heatran can reliably deal with Volcarona. Taunt sets can help against Volcarona shutting down its Quiver Dance, Roost, and Safeguard, which leaves Volcarona vulnerable to a subsequent Toxic aimed at it.

Admittingly it has a certain pressure on the teambuilder, but I am in the belief, that most Pokemon which deal with Volcarona are metagame staples anyway and land up on most teams ultimately to patch certain holes defensively. So I do not believe that Volcarona itself is broken or that pressuring, that there needs to be something done about it. Most of the aforementioned Pokemon can also check other threats reliably, so they are in the account in the teambuilding aspect.

Conclusion:
I dont think Volcarona is broken even when it can put a bit of pressure on the teambuilder, but Volcarona is deal-able with in a safe manner.
 

Niko

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A single Pokémon hard countering a threat gives no assurance that the threat is healthy. It's rather an evidence of the Pokémon being kinda unhealthy, as it forces coinflips in the preview frequently. Stealth Rock has always been a natural check to Volcarona, but now with the Boots Volca is more dangerous than ever. It's another one of the many problems we would solve by banning the HDBs. However, HDBs need a suspect test, so I don't think we have any reason to take action against Volcarona now, considering that they are planned to be tested soon.
 
View attachment 343101
How are people feeling about Volcorona? Healthy presence in the tier? High or low skill ceiling? I think it's obviously centralizing but it's not any more broken than ooga booga mons like Rillaboom where you just have to prep for them in the builder
Do you ever not look for “broken” things? Like seriously, pick a lane. You either want the complex ban you’re nutting over (slowtwin suspect and ban makes more sense anyway) or want Volcorona gone. And that’s besides the fact that right after the quick ban of Cinderace and Mag you were wanting more things gone without time to let the meta adjust.

Quite frankly people in this tier complain too much. Personally the meta is in a good place with no outright broken things that stand out. At this point we’d suspecting things just for change itself and that to me isn’t a sufficient reason to ban things just because “the meta is stale”.

Past that, one other thing I saw posted pages back was the idea that we needed to ban Dragapult because “there are too many things to prepare for”. That’s sadly just a outcome of the game lasting for over 2 decades and more and more Pokémon are added. We long pasted that point of there being too many things to adequately cover and games sometimes being little more then matchups that you lose at team preview. That reasoning to just ban things because there isn’t enough slots or you can’t prepare for them with your style of play is poor and if something should be banned, it’s because it’s actually broken or toxic for the meta (kings rock for example).
 

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