If this thing tanks moves as well as the calcs say it does, I could see the metal burst variant being a problem. It has the stats to run pretty much any type of set it wants
Yeah uh unseen fist just bypasses protect. Surging Strikes is a move that autocrits. Strikes also doesn't 2hko:Not to disagree with your point but I just wanna point out that this Calc is wrong because it doesn't take into account Unseen Fist's automatic Crit which ignores its defensive boost/does more damage.
While true especially for offense, I don't think that's too bad overall given how "slow" it can't be. Metal Burst doesn't have any negative priority, and the slowest Zama could be is a Speed of 252, which overall is still freaking fast. The opportunity cost is too great for Metal Burst IMO, since being that fast lets you batter things like Torn-T before they hit you. Metal Burst might be a good revenge move though as the last resort for bulky fast sets to bop scarfers and things that have DDanced/Scale Shot/Quivered/etc.If this thing tanks moves as well as the calcs say it does, I could see the metal burst variant being a problem. It has the stats to run pretty much any type of set it wants
Lagging Tail can be a nice lure. I can also see it being a nightmare on duel screens( not metal burst but the boosting variants)While true especially for offense, I don't think that's too bad overall given how "slow" it can't be. Metal Burst doesn't have any negative priority, and the slowest Zama could be is a Speed of 252, which overall is still freaking fast. The opportunity cost is too great for Metal Burst IMO, since being that fast lets you batter things like Torn-T before they hit you. Metal Burst might be a good revenge move though as the last resort for bulky fast sets to bop scarfers and things that have DDanced/Scale Shot/Quivered/etc.
It can't run lagging tail - it has to run Rusty Shield.Laggy tail can be a nice lure. I can also see it being a nightmare on duel screens
Oh dangIt can't run lagging tail - it has to run Rusty Shield.
Also, I'm genuinely excited for this (hopeful) suspect test. Zama seems like one of the most exciting things to try out in this meta, especially now that we've finally achieved balance.
I agree with your entire post, except I have to bear some bad news. The calc is bugged when it comes to factoring in Zama's ability, so even though it says +1 Defense, it's not actually being applied. Here's the real worrying af calc:252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 307-367 (90 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Because that's the thing, we don't exactly want Zamazenta unbanned. We want to see how it fits. I'm not saying this for everyone but I'm sure that many can agree that there is no way to know for sure until it is tried. That's why it's called 'test' because we want to see if it is okay or is broken. Risks like this is always something worth considering. Yes, the meta might become hell if it becomes unbanned but it won't stay hell forever. Who knows. Maybe Zamazenta would be a good fit just like when Black Kyurem was tested in ou a few generations agoI'm not a SS OU player but i have a hard time to understand why some of you want to unban Zamazenta. A lot of people here seems happy with the meta they have and it's too early to say if the meta will stay the same or not (probably not tho, old metagame aren't solved, it will be surprising if SS OU is, especially one month after two major ban)
I mean the only argument i see is that if a mon have the potential to not be broken, it need to be suspected, which is something i, personnally, don't agree. IMO, the goal of suspect testing is to make the meta better, other goals aren't beneficial. If you are happy with the current stat of a meta, don't take the risk to make it worse just because you want to test some novelty. What if Zamazenta happen to be a balanced pokemon but the meta feels worse ?
I will say why you have a hard time understanding why people want to unban Zamazenta? It's simple. Like you say you don't play the tierI'm not a SS OU player but i have a hard time to understand why some of you want to unban Zamazenta. A lot of people here seems happy with the meta they have and it's too early to say if the meta will stay the same or not (probably not tho, old metagame aren't solved, it will be surprising if SS OU is, especially one month after two major ban)
I mean the only argument i see is that if a mon have the potential to not be broken, it need to be suspected, which is something i, personnally, don't agree. IMO, the goal of suspect testing is to make the meta better, other goals aren't beneficial. If you are happy with the current stat of a meta, don't take the risk to make it worse just because you want to test some novelty. Why if Zamazenta happen to be a balanced pokemon but the meta feels worse ?
No. I'm shutting this down before it even starts.I was being sarcastic, but let me play devil's advocate. I mean, if the metagame is stable and we are testing random stuff like Zamazenta, might as well retest stag for 2 weeks - for the same logic everyone has been using w/ Zamazenta, could be applied to Stag (only difference is stag is more hated)
Unlike many other things, we banned Shadow Tag (and trapping in general) way back in gen 6 and never looked at it again. Ever. We might've retested Arena Trap in gen 7 but I'm not 100% sure, but def not stag.
Today's metagame has evolved greatly, potentially making stag not as broken.
Cons for Gothitelle/Stag:
- Power Creep: It's way harder for Gothitelle to trap offensive pokemon like it was in gen 6; it can't pretty much switch in on anything in the game with a scarf and trick it. For example, can't really trap offensive pokemon like Kartana, Rillaboom, Melmetal, or Koko.
- More momentum moves, ex: Flip Turn & Teleport. Specifically on defensive pokemon, which is what Gothitelle excelled at trapping. Gothitelle has a much harder time trapping defensive pokemon and risking momentum loss, but even if it gets the double onto them the best it can do is cripple them with a Scarf (assuming they have switching out move). It can't really do the broken get 6 calms minds, pp stall, then get back your trick and try to sweep kinda thing it did way back then.
- Dragapult. Dragapult is the #2 pokemon in usage that provides a ghost type that cannot be trapped AND outspeeds scarf Gothitelle. There's also other viable ghost types right now such as Aegislash, Gengar, and Blacephelon.
- No HP. You might think this is dumb but HP def made Gothitelle more flexible, for example you can Scarf + HP fire to take care of Kartana as even if it was scarfed you can take one hit. Some people ran HP ground to weaken Heatran after tricking it Scarf, and some people ran other HP for certain threats.
- It's deadweight for a good amount of matchups. Generally, no matter how hard you are trying to matchup fish, it's never great to have pokemon that's deadweight against some matchups. This might be true for a lot of pokemon, but it certainly wasn't true for Gen 6 Gothitelle, which was useful in every single matchup.
- No pursuit, this is pretty neat for Gothitelle.
- More momentum moves like Flip Turn & Teleport. Although this acts against Gothitelle more than it helps it, it certainly does help it because it does mean you can easily pair it with a Slowbro or something and get guaranteed free switch-in. Although let's say a Blissey comes in, you do get the guaranteed Tricking it Scarf while Blissey teleport outs (which gives up momentum), but like previously mentioned you don't get the PP Stalling + getting 6 Calms Minds + Getting scarf back kinda level of broken.
I know Trapping was banned more-so because it had an uncompetitive game-breaking mechanic which was eliminating switching, but with so many new factors it might be less broken, just as broken, or potentially even more broken (probably not, gen 6 gothitelle was peak cancer) - but we will never know that, unless we test it. Which was what everyone was advocating for Zam-C. Gothitelle isn't something we tested many times like Zygarde, neither it was something we tested pretty recently like Darm-G. Hell, even if it was something we tested often, which we didn't, it might still be worth restesting - case in point Blaziken and Aegislash. There ARE other factors to trapping like Wobuffet and potentially Arena Trap, but Gothitelle was by far the biggest offender.
I'm just playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't really want Stag back either - but I'm curious to see what happens, as it genuinely might not be as broken. If the metagame is so stable that we get to test whatever we think might be not completely broken in OU for 2 weeks because we have the control factor, might as well test Shadow Tag for the hell of it. Biases aside. Don't hate on this post, I'm just tryna make important discussion and address the elephant in the room. Ok I'm ready now for the dislikes.
Very well written and thought out :)Y'all are talking about View attachment 323712 and not View attachment 323711?
I'm disappointed, and here's why.
This thing is beyond stupidly bulky - and just stupid in general, lol. 92/145/145 with an automatic +1 Defense allows it to be physically bulkier than View attachment 323710, and on top of that it has a significantly better defensive typing and isn't required to hold Boots to actually have an Ability - which in the case of Zamazenta-Crowned is always in effect until the stat is lowered or reset. On top of this, further comparing to the Great Wall of Johto, it takes almost nothing from Stealth Rock due to a x4 resistance to Rock, cannot be Poisoned, is actually capable offensively, and without even fully investing into Speed can outpace everything not named View attachment 323709, View attachment 323707 (who really barely touches it without CC), View attachment 323706, View attachment 323713, Jolly View attachment 323708 outside of Rain, View attachment 323703, or Scarf View attachment 323705. 200 EVs with a boosting nature allow it to outpace everything else in the metagame up to View attachment 323704, which coupled with its certainly numerous chances to set up using Howl would almost certainly make for a metagame-warping presence demanding otherwise unviable strategies and Mons to defeat it, as was the case with Spectrier and Urshifu-Single-Strike. Furthermore, although it lacks its own recovery excluding Rest, it's more than capable of being Wishpassed to and recieving Future Sight support, making the case further for it to be an unhealthy offensive behemoth that would absolutely dominate the meta to the extent of the likes of Garchomp in DPPt and Genesect in... basically every gen so far actually lmao. I suppose it's true - A good defense is the best offense.
So... what makes the Hero form any better for OU despite having access to an item slot and being even faster than the Crowned Shield?
My belief is that Zamazenta-Hero's lack of coverage and worse typing both offensively and defensively (while not horribly so, the difference is significant in my opinion) makes it, while maybe not entirely healthy, a significantly less oppressive presence than Crowned Zamazenta would be. Many people I've spoken to about dropping this form freak out about a Choice Band set coupled with its stats - but we have to remember that while it and Zacian share identical stats in their Hero forms, Zamazenta does not possess the capability to effectively have +2 or even +3 Attack on entry or turn 1. In fact, it can do neither, since it cannot set up while holding a Choice item, so your best bet is always to have only +1 from either a Choice Band (a set I actually frown upon since I feel that Zamazenta has only Close Combat as a worthwhile move to lock into, which has many switchins at least at a first glance), or with Howl, which seems to me like it/CC/Wild Charge/Crunch with a Life Orb would be the optimal set, since it can definitely set up at least once due to still having very solid 92/115/115 bulk while retaining +1 Defense.
I believe that Zamazenta-H would be able to run Adamant fairly easily on faster teams, but would end up preferring Jolly overall like the Crowned form likely would. The biggest issue I see here is that these four are really the only moves worth running on Zamazenta. It doesn't have many other useful options, and all of them don't hit as many Mons as universally as Wild Charge and Crunch do. The biggest defining factory here, though, is the item slot granted to it - would a Life Orb truly be the breaking point for Zamazenta even with it being more of a textbook definition of "bad Uber" than Reshiram?
My answer as of now is a mostly confident no. Even with titans that OU has hosted in the past such as Kyurem-Black pre-Gen 8 and Hoopa-Unbound in Gen 7, they've had a flaw that keeps them from being Uber in some way. For Hoopa, it was a crippling weakness to physical pivoting in U-turn and a Speed that that has become worse and worse over the years. For Kyurem-Black, it was a sheer lack of physical Ice STAB that was instantaneous. For Mega Mawile, it was a sort of overreliance on priority to beat some of its best checks, rendering it slow but still with a respectable amount of power. For Zamazenta-Hero, I believe that its lacking viable movepool, being resticted to only a few good offensive tools, makes it at the very least worth our attention to suspect it for a potential drop.