Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[pulsar512b]

Yay for 100 pages!

Anyway, so about Zamazenta-C.

I feel like it would certainly be a top threat, but I'm not sure about it being broken. I would be cautiously in favor of a suspect test, although it might be worthwhile to e.g. run some roomtours in the OU room with it unbanned before deciding- if it's clearly absolutely busted then no point innit.

Remember, it's physical bulk is roughly on par with Buzzwole's before it gets the +1 defense boost, and it has a higher spdef stat than Toxapex. It would be very hard to kill immediately. However, it's lack of recovery could mean that it's possible to wear it down, and it would be possible to handle defensively, at least so i thought before I calced these:

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 260-306 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 235-277 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


So.. yeah, the only real checks/countes I can find are Slowbro (still takes a good amount from Wild Charge), Buzzwole, and Toxapex.

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 109-130 (26 - 31.1%) -- 9.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You might try to use faster offensive threats but those don't like swapping in and often dont even manage the KO:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 160-189 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 258-306 (79.3 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian: 129-153 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall, if I had to guess, this is broken.

The metagame shifts would favor Slowbro and Toxapex, to the detriment of.. literally every other bulky water.

Right after I did this I realized that Zapdos would serve as a solid countermeasure as would corviknight/skarmory lol (esp running rocky helmet)
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 81-96 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 162-192 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 124-146 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
BTW- Moltres doesn't work

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Moltres: 196-232 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

ausma edit: combined your two posts; don't do double posts please!

 

[DeltaInsurgent]

Y'all are talking about

and not

?

I'm disappointed, and here's why.



This thing is beyond stupidly bulky - and just stupid in general, lol. 92/145/145 with an automatic +1 Defense allows it to be physically bulkier than

, and on top of that it has a significantly better defensive typing and isn't required to hold Boots to actually have an Ability - which in the case of Zamazenta-Crowned is always in effect until the stat is lowered or reset. On top of this, further comparing to the Great Wall of Johto, it takes almost nothing from Stealth Rock due to a x4 resistance to Rock, cannot be Poisoned, is actually capable offensively, and without even fully investing into Speed can outpace everything not named

,

(who really barely touches it without CC),

,

, Jolly

outside of Rain,

, or Scarf

. 200 EVs with a boosting nature allow it to outpace everything else in the metagame up to

, which coupled with its certainly numerous chances to set up using Howl would almost certainly make for a metagame-warping presence demanding otherwise unviable strategies and Mons to defeat it, as was the case with Spectrier and Urshifu-Single-Strike. Furthermore, although it lacks its own recovery excluding Rest, it's more than capable of being Wishpassed to and recieving Future Sight support, making the case further for it to be an unhealthy offensive behemoth that would absolutely dominate the meta to the extent of the likes of Garchomp in DPPt and Genesect in... basically every gen so far actually lmao. I suppose it's true - A good defense is the best offense.

So... what makes the Hero form any better for OU despite having access to an item slot and being even faster than the Crowned Shield?



My belief is that Zamazenta-Hero's lack of coverage and worse typing both offensively and defensively (while not horribly so, the difference is significant in my opinion) makes it, while maybe not entirely healthy, a significantly less oppressive presence than Crowned Zamazenta would be. Many people I've spoken to about dropping this form freak out about a Choice Band set coupled with its stats - but we have to remember that while it and Zacian share identical stats in their Hero forms, Zamazenta does not possess the capability to effectively have +2 or even +3 Attack on entry or turn 1. In fact, it can do neither, since it cannot set up while holding a Choice item, so your best bet is always to have only +1 from either a Choice Band (a set I actually frown upon since I feel that Zamazenta has only Close Combat as a worthwhile move to lock into, which has many switchins at least at a first glance), or with Howl, which seems to me like it/CC/Wild Charge/Crunch with a Life Orb would be the optimal set, since it can definitely set up at least once due to still having very solid 92/115/115 bulk while retaining +1 Defense.

I believe that Zamazenta-H would be able to run Adamant fairly easily on faster teams, but would end up preferring Jolly overall like the Crowned form likely would. The biggest issue I see here is that these four are really the only moves worth running on Zamazenta. It doesn't have many other useful options, and all of them don't hit as many Mons as universally as Wild Charge and Crunch do. The biggest defining factory here, though, is the item slot granted to it - would a Life Orb truly be the breaking point for Zamazenta even with it being more of a textbook definition of "bad Uber" than Reshiram?

My answer as of now is a mostly confident no. Even with titans that OU has hosted in the past such as Kyurem-Black pre-Gen 8 and Hoopa-Unbound in Gen 7, they've had a flaw that keeps them from being Uber in some way. For Hoopa, it was a crippling weakness to physical pivoting in U-turn and a Speed that that has become worse and worse over the years. For Kyurem-Black, it was a sheer lack of physical Ice STAB that was instantaneous. For Mega Mawile, it was a sort of overreliance on priority to beat some of its best checks, rendering it slow but still with a respectable amount of power. For Zamazenta-Hero, I believe that its lacking viable movepool, being resticted to only a few good offensive tools, makes it at the very least worth our attention to suspect it for a potential drop.

 

[pulsar512b]

Y'all are talking about View attachment 323712 and not View attachment 323711?

I'm disappointed, and here's why.



This thing is beyond stupidly bulky - and just stupid in general, lol. 92/145/145 with an automatic +1 Defense allows it to be physically bulkier than View attachment 323710, and on top of that it has a significantly better defensive typing and isn't required to hold Boots to actually have an Ability - which in the case of Zamazenta-Crowned is always in effect until the stat is lowered or reset. On top of this, further comparing to the Great Wall of Johto, it takes almost nothing from Stealth Rock due to a x4 resistance to Rock, cannot be Poisoned, is actually capable offensively, and without even fully investing into Speed can outpace everything not named View attachment 323709, View attachment 323707 (who really barely touches it without CC), View attachment 323706, View attachment 323713, Jolly View attachment 323708 outside of Rain, View attachment 323703, or Scarf View attachment 323705. 200 EVs with a boosting nature allow it to outpace everything else in the metagame up to View attachment 323704, which coupled with its certainly numerous chances to set up using Howl would almost certainly make for a metagame-warping presence demanding otherwise unviable strategies and Mons to defeat it, as was the case with Spectrier and Urshifu-Single-Strike. Furthermore, although it lacks its own recovery excluding Rest, it's more than capable of being Wishpassed to and recieving Future Sight support, making the case further for it to be an unhealthy offensive behemoth that would absolutely dominate the meta to the extent of the likes of Garchomp in DPPt and Genesect in... basically every gen so far actually lmao. I suppose it's true - A good defense is the best offense.

So... what makes the Hero form any better for OU despite having access to an item slot and being even faster than the Crowned Shield?



My belief is that Zamazenta-Hero's lack of coverage and worse typing both offensively and defensively (while not horribly so, the difference is significant in my opinion) makes it, while maybe not entirely healthy, a significantly less oppressive presence than Crowned Zamazenta would be. Many people I've spoken to about dropping this form freak out about a Choice Band set coupled with its stats - but we have to remember that while it and Zacian share identical stats in their Hero forms, Zamazenta does not possess the capability to effectively have +2 or even +3 Attack on entry or turn 1. In fact, it can do neither, since it cannot set up while holding a Choice item, so your best bet is always to have only +1 from either a Choice Band (a set I actually frown upon since I feel that Zamazenta has only Close Combat as a worthwhile move to lock into, which has many switchins at least at a first glance), or with Howl, which seems to me like it/CC/Wild Charge/Crunch with a Life Orb would be the optimal set, since it can definitely set up at least once due to still having very solid 92/115/115 bulk while retaining +1 Defense.

I believe that Zamazenta-H would be able to run Adamant fairly easily on faster teams, but would end up preferring Jolly overall like the Crowned form likely would. The biggest issue I see here is that these four are really the only moves worth running on Zamazenta. It doesn't have many other useful options, and all of them don't hit as many Mons as universally as Wild Charge and Crunch do. The biggest defining factory here, though, is the item slot granted to it - would a Life Orb truly be the breaking point for Zamazenta even with it being more of a textbook definition of "bad Uber" than Reshiram?

My answer as of now is a mostly confident no. Even with titans that OU has hosted in the past such as Kyurem-Black pre-Gen 8 and Hoopa-Unbound in Gen 7, they've had a flaw that keeps them from being Uber in some way. For Hoopa, it was a crippling weakness to physical pivoting in U-turn and a Speed that that has become worse and worse over the years. For Kyurem-Black, it was a sheer lack of physical Ice STAB that was instantaneous. For Mega Mawile, it was a sort of overreliance on priority to beat some of its best checks, rendering it slow but still with a respectable amount of power. For Zamazenta-Hero, I believe that its lacking viable movepool, being resticted to only a few good offensive tools, makes it at the very least worth our attention to suspect it for a potential drop.

Very well written and thought out :)

I hadn't considered the possibility of unbanning Zamazenta-H. I agree with you that it may be less broken, and should be looked at further. I'd also like to note that Behemoth Blade is still a very possible option to run on it, to hit fairy-types.

Life orb means it gets worn down faster (yay), band makes it easier to pivot around (double yay) and the typing means its easier to KO with psychic and flying types (triple yay)

EDIT: Im an idiot as DeltaInsurgent mentioned, as Iron Head's the best steel option for Zamazenta-H

 

[DeltaInsurgent]

Very well written and thought out :)

I hadn't considered the possibility of unbanning Zamazenta-H. I agree with you that it may be less broken, and should be looked at further. I'd also like to note that Behemoth Blade is still a very possible option to run on it, to hit fairy-types.

Life orb means it gets worn down faster (yay), band makes it easier to pivot around (double yay) and the typing means its easier to KO with psychic and flying types (triple yay)

best Steel-type option is Iron Head, actually. The Hero forms don't get the signature moves.

But yeah, I've always thought that Crowned Zama would be incredibly stupid lol. At least I can wear down Hero Zama significantly easier.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yay for 100 pages!

Anyway, so about Zamazenta-C.

I feel like it would certainly be a top threat, but I'm not sure about it being broken. I would be cautiously in favor of a suspect test, although it might be worthwhile to e.g. run some roomtours in the OU room with it unbanned before deciding- if it's clearly absolutely busted then no point innit.

Remember, it's physical bulk is roughly on par with Buzzwole's before it gets the +1 defense boost, and it has a higher spdef stat than Toxapex. It would be very hard to kill immediately. However, it's lack of recovery could mean that it's possible to wear it down, and it would be possible to handle defensively, at least so i thought before I calced these:

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 260-306 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 235-277 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


So.. yeah, the only real checks/countes I can find are Slowbro (still takes a good amount from Wild Charge), Buzzwole, and Toxapex.

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 109-130 (26 - 31.1%) -- 9.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You might try to use faster offensive threats but those don't like swapping in and often dont even manage the KO:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 160-189 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 258-306 (79.3 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian: 129-153 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall, if I had to guess, this is broken.

The metagame shifts would favor Slowbro and Toxapex, to the detriment of.. literally every other bulky water.

Right after I did this I realized that Zapdos would serve as a solid countermeasure as would corviknight/skarmory lol (esp running rocky helmet)
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 81-96 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 162-192 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 124-146 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
BTW- Moltres doesn't work

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Moltres: 196-232 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

ausma edit: combined your two posts; don't do double posts please!

It's gonna get worn down pretty quickly with hazards damage + Wild Charge recoil though

Not counting Rocky Helmet damage, it takes 10%-12% recoil every time it Wild Charges Slowbro. 8%-10% against Toxapex and14%-16% against Tapu Fini. Not to mention all his preferred moves are contact


I'm also not liking the fact that 2 out of his 3 preferred moves only have 8 max pp.

 

[pulsar512b]

It's gonna get worn down pretty quickly with hazards damage + Wild Charge recoil though

Not counting Rocky Helmet damage, it takes 10%-12% recoil every time it Wild Charges Slowbro. 8%-10% against Toxapex and14%-16% against Tapu Fini. Not to mention all his preferred moves are contact

True, but who cares if that's happening if you're getting all the kills :)

Plus, wish-passing etc helps it tremendously.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

True, but who cares if that's happening if you're getting all the kills :)

Plus, wish-passing etc helps it tremendously.

You're getting 3hkos on most of those mentioned and a lot of them have Regenerator or some reliable source if recovery.

Most Mons benefit from Wish support or Defog support but it almost feels like a necessity for this Mon

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I wonder if we'll start to see defensive Lando-T run Earth Power instead of Earthquake in a metagame with Zamazenta-C. It does just slightly (<1%) more damage than Earthquake when you factor in the Dauntless Shield boost, and also has the benefit of not being reduced by Grassy Terrain (which I'm expecting an uptick in as well) so it may be more consistent from that end.

Against a lot of physically invested defensive pokemon you're looking at a 2-7% difference in damage, though it notably doesn't 100% guarantee the OHKO on SpDef Heatran (rip) and also makes you a good bit weaker vs things like Garchomp. That being said it'll probably be there as a niche option for teams who really want to be safe in chunking Zamazenta-C while running Rillaboom (or Zama-C + Rillaboom).

Relevant Calcs

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (42.8 - 51%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 150-176 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I shouldn't need to calc that STAB EQ coming off of 145 Atk is a convincing OHKO on a 4x weakness
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 312-372 (80.8 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 150-176 (49.3 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 109-130 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 154-183 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 117-138 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[pulsar512b]

You're getting 3hkos on most of those mentioned and a lot of them have Regenerator or some reliable source if recovery.

Most Mons benefit from Wish support or Defog support but it almost feels like a necessity for this Mon

I mean defog support generally is a necessity.

I personally think it would still be too much for the metagame, but these factors certainly are big detractors for it.

A comparison to Zapdos-Galar may be of use here, as the two pokemon have many similarities. Zamazenta can break through waters that Zapdos can't, but doesnt have thundurus kick or uturn. It's also more powerful and bulky in general.

Think Zapdos-Galar, but bulkier! Faster! More powerful! Better coverage!

Yeah, this thing is probably broken.

 

[Finchinator]

We are not touching shadow tag.

 

[pulsar512b]

We are not touching shadow tag.

praise finch

In all seriousness, I want to just say here that I really appreciate the work of the OU council and while I haven't agreed with all of your decisions, your decisions have been very understandable and the result is the fantastic metagame we have now.

Love yall. Keep doing what you're doing :)

EDIT: wanted to say a few more words

The current metagame is the best it's ever been in gen 8, and in my opinion, it's the best metagame I've ever played.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I feel lack of a hold item will be the nail in the coffin for it. The more I look into this Mon, the more underwhelming it seems.

It's shallow move pool makes it pretty predictable and I feel it will require too much team support. Don't get me wrong, though
It still has an amazing typing and crazy high sky stats. At best, I can see it being this Gen's Kyurem Black but I definitely don't see it getting suspected.

 

[Bruh Moment (Fruedasi)]

I was being sarcastic, but let me play devil's advocate. I mean, if the metagame is stable and we are testing random stuff like Zamazenta, might as well retest stag for 2 weeks - for the same logic everyone has been using w/ Zamazenta, could be applied to Stag (only difference is stag is more hated)

Unlike many other things, we banned Shadow Tag (and trapping in general) way back in gen 6 and never looked at it again. Ever. We might've retested Arena Trap in gen 7 but I'm not 100% sure, but def not stag.

Today's metagame has evolved greatly, potentially making stag not as broken.

Cons for Gothitelle/Stag:
- Power Creep: It's way harder for Gothitelle to trap offensive pokemon like it was in gen 6; it can't pretty much switch in on anything in the game with a scarf and trick it. For example, can't really trap offensive pokemon like Kartana, Rillaboom, Melmetal, or Koko.
- More momentum moves, ex: Flip Turn & Teleport. Specifically on defensive pokemon, which is what Gothitelle excelled at trapping. Gothitelle has a much harder time trapping defensive pokemon and risking momentum loss, but even if it gets the double onto them the best it can do is cripple them with a Scarf (assuming they have switching out move). It can't really do the broken get 6 calms minds, pp stall, then get back your trick and try to sweep kinda thing it did way back then.
- Dragapult. Dragapult is the #2 pokemon in usage that provides a ghost type that cannot be trapped AND outspeeds scarf Gothitelle. There's also other viable ghost types right now such as Aegislash, Gengar, and Blacephelon.
- No HP. You might think this is dumb but HP def made Gothitelle more flexible, for example you can Scarf + HP fire to take care of Kartana as even if it was scarfed you can take one hit. Some people ran HP ground to weaken Heatran after tricking it Scarf, and some people ran other HP for certain threats.
- It's deadweight for a good amount of matchups. Generally, no matter how hard you are trying to matchup fish, it's never great to have pokemon that's deadweight against some matchups. This might be true for a lot of pokemon, but it certainly wasn't true for Gen 6 Gothitelle, which was useful in every single matchup.

Pros:

- No pursuit, this is pretty neat for Gothitelle.
- More momentum moves like Flip Turn & Teleport. Although this acts against Gothitelle more than it helps it, it certainly does help it because it does mean you can easily pair it with a Slowbro or something and get guaranteed free switch-in. Although let's say a Blissey comes in, you do get the guaranteed Tricking it Scarf while Blissey teleport outs (which gives up momentum), but like previously mentioned you don't get the PP Stalling + getting 6 Calms Minds + Getting scarf back kinda level of broken.

I know Trapping was banned more-so because it had an uncompetitive game-breaking mechanic which was eliminating switching, but with so many new factors it might be less broken, just as broken, or potentially even more broken (probably not, gen 6 gothitelle was peak cancer) - but we will never know that, unless we test it. Which was what everyone was advocating for Zam-C. Gothitelle isn't something we tested many times like Zygarde, neither it was something we tested pretty recently like Darm-G. Hell, even if it was something we tested often, which we didn't, it might still be worth restesting - case in point Blaziken and Aegislash. There ARE other factors to trapping like Wobuffet and potentially Arena Trap, but Gothitelle was by far the biggest offender.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't really want Stag back either - but I'm curious to see what happens, as it genuinely might not be as broken. If the metagame is so stable that we get to test whatever we think might be not completely broken in OU for 2 weeks because we have the control factor, might as well test Shadow Tag for the hell of it. Biases aside. Don't hate on this post, I'm just tryna make important discussion and address the elephant in the room. Ok I'm ready now for the dislikes.

I mean, the problem here is that Shadow Tag was already proofed to be busted on the metagame many times and it's not that specific on trapping like Arena Trap(still busted on the meta, meaning that a better ability of trapping would be even worse) and Magnet Pull. Also Team Preview makes trapping abilities a lot more reliable. Because then the player can make more smart plays on the game
As the Council said they will not touching on it
As this post is, I just want to share my opinion about this and I don't think it's a good idea, feel free to disagree and have a good day

 

[pulsar512b]

I feel lack of a hold item will be the nail in the coffin for it. The more I look into this Mon, the more underwhelming it seems.

It's shallow move pool makes it pretty predictable and I feel it will require too much team support. Don't get me wrong, though
It still has an amazing typing and crazy high sky stats. At best, I can see it being this Gen's Kyurem Black but I definitely don't see it getting suspected.

At the end of the day, probably a good idea to suspect test it, see if it's broken, and go from there innit :)

Only so much theorycrafting you can do

 

[Fusion Flare]

I wonder if we'll start to see defensive Lando-T run Earth Power instead of Earthquake in a metagame with Zamazenta-C. It does just slightly (<1%) more damage than Earthquake when you factor in the Dauntless Shield boost, and also has the benefit of not being reduced by Grassy Terrain (which I'm expecting an uptick in as well) so it may be more consistent from that end.

Against a lot of physically invested defensive pokemon you're looking at a 2-7% difference in damage, though it notably doesn't 100% guarantee the OHKO on SpDef Heatran (rip) and also makes you a good bit weaker vs things like Garchomp. That being said it'll probably be there as a niche option for teams who really want to be safe in chunking Zamazenta-C while running Rillaboom (or Zama-C + Rillaboom).

Relevant Calcs

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (42.8 - 51%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 150-176 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I shouldn't need to calc that STAB EQ coming off of 145 Atk is a convincing OHKO on a 4x weakness
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 312-372 (80.8 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 150-176 (49.3 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 109-130 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 154-183 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 117-138 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Earth Power Landorus-T is a pretty promising by concept in and of itself, considering its quite the formidable weapon against Kartana, who would otherwise eat up earthquakes with impunity, so the move isnt specifically reserved for Zama-C

 

[Minazuki]

This same multi-page theorycrafting discussion over Zamazenta has been repeated like three times already. Now would be a really good time to test whether it fits into the OU metagame in practice because there are no outright broken mons running around. Also, if I remember correctly the last poll also showed that a majority of players would like to have it tested so there is really no reason not to. In the worst case scenario it's only going to stay in the tier for a few weeks anyway.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

My main concern with suspecting Zama at this point is that if it is considered banworthy, will it get a re-test if the diamond and pearl remakes introduce megas or Z-moves? If not, I'd rather they wait on the testing until the game's release

 

[pulsar512b]

My main concern with suspecting Zama at this point is that if it is considered banworthy, will it get a re-test if the diamond and pearl remakes introduce megas or Z-moves? If not, I'd rather they wait on the testing until the game's release

I mean, as I understand, they're meant to be released in late 2021... it's march.. that's a long while :P

 

[Fusion Flare]

My main concern with suspecting Zama at this point is that if it is considered banworthy, will it get a re-test if the diamond and pearl remakes introduce megas or Z-moves? If not, I'd rather they wait on the testing until the game's release

Cmon, we’re already pushing the limits of theorymonning with the shield dog right now. Why add completely different situations of a game that we have approximately a solid minute of content regarding?

 

[Ruffles]

Guys I was just trolling by playing an advocate for something so stupid like stag. It should give you a chuckle and move on. Like Finch and Asuma said just ignore it as we're not gonna touch Stag.

On a more serious note, all this Zam-C discussion is cool and all, but I don't think continuously testing/retesting stuff should be the way to go about things necessarily. Sure, test a couple of things here and there that might have potential of not being broken like Zam-C, but I would also advocate to not touch the metagame that much, at least for a good period of time. Finch makes a good point about the metagame being in a balanced state gives us room to test things, but I do wanna say one thing.

When you let a metagame simmer and marinate with 0 changes, it develops on its own. It evolves, it grows, and it diversifies. Just recently we have seen new diversity in Weavile / Scizor with Zeraora being on the come up, for example. Testing new things will centralize the meta around the thing that is tested which stunts that growth, and potentially even regresses it if we make a wrong choice. Gen 7 for example, had a big time period post Zygarde ban of it just being there, and IMO it was the most fun part of gen 7 with extremely diverse metagame with new techs and new flavors of the week/month coming out nonstop.

If the metagame gets stale instead of evolving, we can then test new things. Zam-C, Darmanitan, and maybe eventually test HDB/Teleport (maybe Heatran as well ). Although at the end of the day, this is just my opinion. I'm not part of the council and they are free to do what they see fit. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents, I trust the council.

 

[pulsar512b]

Just recently we have seen new diversity in Weavile / Scizor with Zeraora being on the come up, for example.

Just to note on these- I feel like most of that rise was due to Cinderace and Magearna disappearing (at least for weavile/scizor)

 

[Lin]

The discussion of Zama-C is really a hot topic and as a room staff, I deal with this more than I should and gathering feedback from a quite large sample size helped me to develop my own point of view on Zama-C, which differs from some of the arguments here. I will only talk about some of the factors that people bring as downsides. Before I start, a big disclaimer that these are just my own speculations and I am in favor of testing the thing in tier to find out how the metagame will adapt instead of theorymonning about it here.

1- Lack of reliable recovery.

It is true that Zama-C is not capable of holding an item so Leftovers is not an option, but this doesn't mean people who team build using Zama-C won't use other recovery options in their teams. Rillaboom is super hot in the meta as of now, Tapu Bulu is on the rise and the two can actually make decent partners as they do form some sort of synergy (albeit stacking fire weakness), and Grassy Terrain can provide the necessary recovery for Zama-C while also lowering Earthquake damage. Another option is to Wish, teammates like Blissey and Clefable can definitively opt Wish back to keep Zama-C healthy with the help of Teleport, making it incredibly difficult to wear down on some builds with its massive bulk.

2- It cannot hold any other item.

This has two positive merits I believe, you now get an option to punish Trick with the help of scouting from Protect (despite the fact that it got extremely rare these days with gimmick items like Sticky Barb) and you get a proper switch to Knock Off from foes like Toxapex and Clefable doing negative damage. The strongest Knock Off in the tier hits about 20% (Life Orb Kartana) so this allows you to preserve crucial items on Pokemon who don't appreciate losing their items.

3- It cannot break past some of the common defensive Pokemon.

Two words, Future Sight. Future Sight is bullshit and is an extremely important asset for Zama-C as it helps Zama-C get past some of the stuff it struggles against, most notably against Buzzwole and Toxapex, while still chipping pretty much everything else besides Slowbro, Skarmory, and Corviknight, which all hate the existence of Magnezone.

 

[ζCrv]

Another option is to Wish, teammates like Blissey and Clefable can definitively opt Wish back to keep Zama-C healthy with the help of Teleport, making it incredibly difficult to wear down on some builds with its massive bulk.

Blissey is not accessible to WishPort set, though she learns both moves.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The discussion of Zama-C is really a hot topic and as a room staff, I deal with this more than I should and gathering feedback from a quite large sample size helped me to develop my own point of view on Zama-C, which differs from some of the arguments here. I will only talk about some of the factors that people bring as downsides. Before I start, a big disclaimer that these are just my own speculations and I am in favor of testing the thing in tier to find out how the metagame will adapt instead of theorymonning about it here.

1- Lack of reliable recovery.

It is true that Zama-C is not capable of holding an item so Leftovers is not an option, but this doesn't mean people who team build using Zama-C won't use other recovery options in their teams. Rillaboom is super hot in the meta as of now, Tapu Bulu is on the rise and the two can actually make decent partners as they do form some sort of synergy (albeit stacking fire weakness), and Grassy Terrain can provide the necessary recovery for Zama-C while also lowering Earthquake damage. Another option is to Wish, teammates like Blissey and Clefable can definitively opt Wish back to keep Zama-C healthy with the help of Teleport, making it incredibly difficult to wear down on some builds with its massive bulk.

2- It cannot hold any other item.

This has two positive merits I believe, you now get an option to punish Trick with the help of scouting from Protect (despite the fact that it got extremely rare these days with gimmick items like Sticky Barb) and you get a proper switch to Knock Off from foes like Toxapex and Clefable doing negative damage. The strongest Knock Off in the tier hits about 20% (Life Orb Kartana) so this allows you to preserve crucial items on Pokemon who don't appreciate losing their items.

3- It cannot break past some of the common defensive Pokemon.

Two words, Future Sight. Future Sight is bullshit and is an extremely important asset for Zama-C as it helps Zama-C get past some of the stuff it struggles against, most notably against Buzzwole and Toxapex, while still chipping pretty much everything else besides Slowbro, Skarmory, and Corviknight, which all hate the existence of Magnezone.

All the points you mentioned basically points to the fact that it requires an insane amount of team support while offering little support in return.

 

[Lin]

I would hardly call a natural synergy an "insane amount of team support". No team will really run all these things together to keep Zama-C healthy, and nothing wrong with using two pokemon that complement each other in some way. As I said, Rillaboom and/or Tapu Bulu can provide Grassy Terrain for Zama-C which are really 2 good Pokemon by themselves, and the properties of Grassy Terrain are generally welcomed in many teams. There are a lot of Pokemon who benefit from Grassy Terrain and this won't be exclusive to Zama-C. Some notable weaknesses of those Pokemon are easily covered up by Zama-C while Tapu Bulu defensively covers up Zama-C's weaknesses as well while Rillaboom provides momentum with U-turn. Future Sight support is not any different, it won't be exclusive to Zama-C as many other Pokemon actually use it to apply automatic offensive presence against the very same defensive Pokemon that Zama-C struggles against. Moreover, there is some form of a defensive synergy provided by the Pokemon who use it, both Slowbro and Slowking can cover up Zama-C's Fighting and Fire weakness while Zama-C can take hits from Dark-types.
Zama-C doesn't have to provide utility/support for its team, as far as I am concerned it still is a Pokemon with decent offensive typing, a ridiculous bulk on both sides, and high offensive stats by OU standards in 130/128.

Anyway, when we don't have anything else that runs crazy in the tier right now, it seems like the perfect time to consider a test maybe because the discussions have been going for too long now.