If we’re gonna test anything, I think we should test them before we do anything about dragapult. The mons that are being considered to be retested such as cinder and urshifu all provide nice offensive checks to the popular specs pult set.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I disagree heavily with your post. Specific things such as them being offensive checks to Specs Dragapult holds no relevance in my eyes in determining their worthiness for a retest. What matters is if they have potential to rejoin the OU list while maintaining a healthy presence in the metagame, something that I disagree with concerning Cinderance and HEAVILY disagree with concerning Urshifu which has incredibly minimal defensive counterplay that is very prediction reliant.
EDIT: I prefer the term soft check in their case, Cinderace and Urshifu are dependent on Sucker Punch to stop it from knocking them out with Specs Draco, which obviously can be exploited.
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
As there is lots of discussion of various Pokemon and other elements being broken, I would like to suggest the council do another playerbase survey soon to see which we believe is the most problematic, though which things would be included I don't know.
I do not have the date of the next tiering survey, but I fully expect it to be sometime near the end of the first round of WCoP (a month from now). This is not a guarantee and we are honestly yet to discuss that far ahead as a council (so consider this me posting on behalf of myself, not the council), but let's look at why this seems likely:
- We had a survey a month ago in which 69% of players said nothing was worth suspecting.
- A larger portion of the qualified demographic also said nothing was worth suspecting.
- We had another survey a month before that.
- This means we had two successive surveys in the time span that normally has one.
- You reach a point of diminishing returns if you have surveys every few weeks or month, which would be the directional trend of we had a survey now or soon.
- The metagame right now and the metagame in a month are likely going to be very different.
- WCoP R1 tends to evolve the metagame more than any single stretch of time besides OLT qualifiers every single year.
- Having a survey right now would likely generate results that do not do us much good unless there is an overwhelming outcry of support for a prompt ban or suspect.
- There is no way we will have an overwhelming outcry of support for prompt action when just a month ago we had massive support to not suspect anything.
Summarizing the recent topics in my POV:
Dragapult might be a suspect
HDB might be suspected
Item Clause is being discussed
Slowking is using lv99 now to be slower teleport than lv100 slowkings
Cinderace and Urshifu second suspect tests
imo on Pult: There's always going to be an uber fast mon with a huge movepool and I don't think it having ghost stab is a reason to ban it. Something else will take its spot. First it was Cinderace, now it's Dragapult. If there's one thing we learned it's that uber fast mons with solid STAB and good coverage will always dominate the meta and at some point you need to live w/that facet of the game. Histortically it's been Weavile, Greninja, Cinderace, and now Pult. Zeraora had it's time in the limelight of that role too. Imo the community needs to look at what they're really against which is uber fast mons with good STAB and solid coverage.
imo on HDB: I think it should be limited to 1 mon per team and be a complex ban. If there's 4 regen mons all using HDB that's just not cool. If there were more thought behind it and you had to select your HDB mon and then protect it from knock during the game that makes the strategy more complex and bear more risk, plus it takes away a toy from the regen core teams that imo put them slightly over the edge in terms of metagame health.
imo on Item Clause: A cute discussion but doesn't feel relevant not just because not having item clause has become an obvious precedent but because I think it would be too extreme of a fix to solve the HDB issue and the proponents for the Item Clause, I feel, aren't thinking their arguments through and I haven't felt swayed by any of them just yet.
imo on Lv99 Slowking: It's being seen in major tournaments. FuturePort is a prob imo especially wiht regen, assvest, and offensive mons continually being removed from the tier it's more difficult to get a specific attacker in on a futureport mon that does the same thing vs every mon anyway and just runs away when something bad happens. It's like a simple cookie cutter playstyle from the FuturePort user and it's an exact science for the offensive team trying to beat it. Although this puts pressure on Slowkings teammates, the lv99 thing and prevalnece of the strategy both on ladder and in tourny goes to show how much of a staple of a strat it is which is in large part bc of the low risk nature of the playstyle
Imo on Cinderace and Urshifu suspect re-test: If only Urshifu didn't get Sucker Punch it would be a great addition for the meta but unfortunately it handles offense and defense too well and I don't think it has a place in the meta although a hard hitting (regularly 50%+ to defensive mons) without an item mon would be good for the tier Urshifu just puts too much pressure on too many playstyles.
Cinderace is an up front version of the uber speedy attacker with solid STAB and coverage. I found some of the arguments for its ban kind of weak like the Gunkshot poisons putting it over the edge, and while Ace is gone it's role and the type of mon it is is still in the meta in the form of Pult and to a lesser degree Zeraora. I don't think bringing it back will change much tbh it would just impact the defensive spreads but it's role will still be handled similary to other mons that are meant to do similar things. The issue here is HDB puts it over the top and it's speedy enough to hit first for a KO before being knocked or it can just switch out to keep boots, but that's more the nature of the meta than the mon imo.
I'm fairly wishy washy on all of the above topics but as far as I can tell, don't suspect Pult, maybe re-test ace, drop the item clause discussion, forget about urshifu, and the slowking futureport thing might be a look in the mirror moment for smogon to consider how strong and dominating that low risk playstyle truly is.
Dragapult might be a suspect
HDB might be suspected
Item Clause is being discussed
Slowking is using lv99 now to be slower teleport than lv100 slowkings
Cinderace and Urshifu second suspect tests
imo on Pult: There's always going to be an uber fast mon with a huge movepool and I don't think it having ghost stab is a reason to ban it. Something else will take its spot. First it was Cinderace, now it's Dragapult. If there's one thing we learned it's that uber fast mons with solid STAB and good coverage will always dominate the meta and at some point you need to live w/that facet of the game. Histortically it's been Weavile, Greninja, Cinderace, and now Pult. Zeraora had it's time in the limelight of that role too. Imo the community needs to look at what they're really against which is uber fast mons with good STAB and solid coverage.
imo on HDB: I think it should be limited to 1 mon per team and be a complex ban. If there's 4 regen mons all using HDB that's just not cool. If there were more thought behind it and you had to select your HDB mon and then protect it from knock during the game that makes the strategy more complex and bear more risk, plus it takes away a toy from the regen core teams that imo put them slightly over the edge in terms of metagame health.
imo on Item Clause: A cute discussion but doesn't feel relevant not just because not having item clause has become an obvious precedent but because I think it would be too extreme of a fix to solve the HDB issue and the proponents for the Item Clause, I feel, aren't thinking their arguments through and I haven't felt swayed by any of them just yet.
imo on Lv99 Slowking: It's being seen in major tournaments. FuturePort is a prob imo especially wiht regen, assvest, and offensive mons continually being removed from the tier it's more difficult to get a specific attacker in on a futureport mon that does the same thing vs every mon anyway and just runs away when something bad happens. It's like a simple cookie cutter playstyle from the FuturePort user and it's an exact science for the offensive team trying to beat it. Although this puts pressure on Slowkings teammates, the lv99 thing and prevalnece of the strategy both on ladder and in tourny goes to show how much of a staple of a strat it is which is in large part bc of the low risk nature of the playstyle
Imo on Cinderace and Urshifu suspect re-test: If only Urshifu didn't get Sucker Punch it would be a great addition for the meta but unfortunately it handles offense and defense too well and I don't think it has a place in the meta although a hard hitting (regularly 50%+ to defensive mons) without an item mon would be good for the tier Urshifu just puts too much pressure on too many playstyles.
Cinderace is an up front version of the uber speedy attacker with solid STAB and coverage. I found some of the arguments for its ban kind of weak like the Gunkshot poisons putting it over the edge, and while Ace is gone it's role and the type of mon it is is still in the meta in the form of Pult and to a lesser degree Zeraora. I don't think bringing it back will change much tbh it would just impact the defensive spreads but it's role will still be handled similary to other mons that are meant to do similar things. The issue here is HDB puts it over the top and it's speedy enough to hit first for a KO before being knocked or it can just switch out to keep boots, but that's more the nature of the meta than the mon imo.
I'm fairly wishy washy on all of the above topics but as far as I can tell, don't suspect Pult, maybe re-test ace, drop the item clause discussion, forget about urshifu, and the slowking futureport thing might be a look in the mirror moment for smogon to consider how strong and dominating that low risk playstyle truly is.
Concerning the FS discussion, I must say that I personally think that protect is a very good and often overlooked move. I've been playing some stall lately, and since that archetype can't exactly stop future sight from going on, I slapped a protect blissey in there and whenever I see a slowtwin click it I just bring in blissey as it's teleporting and press protect. It seems to be a very safe play against everything except for urshifu-rs, and protect is in general a pretty decent move to scout choicers, rack up toxic damage and waste sand/rain/tr/terrain/whatever turns. I think that we kinda collectively forgot about the move because urshifu-ss was a threat for such a long time, but it fits really well into the current metagame IMO.
while we are on the topic of shifu-ss, just please no. I'm in general very much for giving mons the benefit of the doubt, but shifu-ss defensive counterplay boils down to 2 pokemon which can both come in on it and don't absolutely suck in general, those being clefable and buzzwole. Both of those go down easily to either a commonly run coverage move or future sight. Offensive counterplay is better, but I really don't want to have to put clef or wole on every slightly bulkier team just to not get murdered by it.
while we are on the topic of shifu-ss, just please no. I'm in general very much for giving mons the benefit of the doubt, but shifu-ss defensive counterplay boils down to 2 pokemon which can both come in on it and don't absolutely suck in general, those being clefable and buzzwole. Both of those go down easily to either a commonly run coverage move or future sight. Offensive counterplay is better, but I really don't want to have to put clef or wole on every slightly bulkier team just to not get murdered by it.
If you're going to suspect Cinderace, I recommend figuring out what to do with the FuturePort problem and what is the verdict on it first. I personally believe there is sufficient counterplay to it and don't think any of Future Sight, Teleport or the slowtwins should be banned at all, but I do realize many people in the community don't feel the same and the action taken could very well change the results of a possible Cinderace test, as it was a mon that heavily abused Future Sight.
Pult gotta go
It's not 'broken' imo. Other ppl have bought up very valid points about how HDB can make it very difficult to force damage onto pult, however I think the problem there is boots not pult.
My main issue with it is how it restricts teambuilding. You have revenge killers in weavile, zera, bisharp and any good scarfer sure, but obviously they don't switch in. And there is defensive counterplay in blissey, clef, mandi and hippo, all of which are very passive, and clef and hippo hate shadow ball sp.def drops. ttar is a defensive answer that isn't passive but it lacks reliable recovery.
See this means that if you're running offence you don't switch in to this mon unless you're using some shit like AV bisharp, so you're gonna lose a mon when it comes out. This also means if you're running balance without mandi or bliss you're probably going to lose to pult over the course of the whole game.
Also quick note on offence again, other offence 'killers' like lucha and boom all have reliable answers that are commonly run on offensive teams (I can't speak for HO I don't use that) like bulky pivot lando and scizor. Meanwhile pult has... ttar.
Is pult impossible to deal with for any archetype? No
Are your options for dealing with it limited? Yes
Will pult be replaced by another mon just like it? ofc not, bc there isn't another mon just like it. There's similar mons sure, but nothing quite as restrictive as pult. And if there is, then we can deal with that later. Saying 'don't ban bc maybe something else will be just as bad in the future' is really dumb imo.
Oh and sorry if I've articulated my points poorly or if there's massive holes in my argument. I'm very new to this kind of thing.
But lol none of this matters anyway bc we won't see any tiering action until the next incredibly useful survey goes out which finch said is likely to be 'sometime near the end of the first round of WCoP (a month from now)'.
Makes you wonder what would have happened if we hadn't done that useless zama test and instead looked at the actual important stuff.
It's not 'broken' imo. Other ppl have bought up very valid points about how HDB can make it very difficult to force damage onto pult, however I think the problem there is boots not pult.
My main issue with it is how it restricts teambuilding. You have revenge killers in weavile, zera, bisharp and any good scarfer sure, but obviously they don't switch in. And there is defensive counterplay in blissey, clef, mandi and hippo, all of which are very passive, and clef and hippo hate shadow ball sp.def drops. ttar is a defensive answer that isn't passive but it lacks reliable recovery.
See this means that if you're running offence you don't switch in to this mon unless you're using some shit like AV bisharp, so you're gonna lose a mon when it comes out. This also means if you're running balance without mandi or bliss you're probably going to lose to pult over the course of the whole game.
Also quick note on offence again, other offence 'killers' like lucha and boom all have reliable answers that are commonly run on offensive teams (I can't speak for HO I don't use that) like bulky pivot lando and scizor. Meanwhile pult has... ttar.
Is pult impossible to deal with for any archetype? No
Are your options for dealing with it limited? Yes
Will pult be replaced by another mon just like it? ofc not, bc there isn't another mon just like it. There's similar mons sure, but nothing quite as restrictive as pult. And if there is, then we can deal with that later. Saying 'don't ban bc maybe something else will be just as bad in the future' is really dumb imo.
Oh and sorry if I've articulated my points poorly or if there's massive holes in my argument. I'm very new to this kind of thing.
But lol none of this matters anyway bc we won't see any tiering action until the next incredibly useful survey goes out which finch said is likely to be 'sometime near the end of the first round of WCoP (a month from now)'.
Makes you wonder what would have happened if we hadn't done that useless zama test and instead looked at the actual important stuff.
I do want to just say something to this really quickly:
The Zamazenta-C test was not useless. Zamazenta-C and the balance surrounding it heavily dominated a lot of metagame discussion, and the metagame was in a state with no overtly broken or suspectable threat. Even now with it remaining banned, there is a lot of discussion going around as to what the culprit as to the current state of the metagame is, to where actually pinning an action is really difficult to do. Seeing how Zamazenta-C impacted the metagame and whether or not it would skew or improve balance in what is otherwise a fairly debatable state of SS OU is the furthest thing from useless, and this comment undermines a lot of the player base's opinions of the suspect as well.
It is for that same reason that holding off a survey is definitely the best choice, and is one I full-heartedly support the council in. WCoP will provide a lot of valuable insight and metagame growth, to where we may even see a rise in things that aren't seeing use now, see one thing prove itself to not be that great, or on the other hand, may even prove to be an obvious issue. Doing it right now especially when this major tournament is about to begin would be a really rash decision, especially given how the last survey was barely a month ago, and when we may see some pivotal developments that could drastically change the metagame climate along with how we perceive and experience the metagame outright.
Regarding Dragapult: I personally am not sure how to feel about it. I definitely get the arguments in favor of banning it, but at the same time it's difficult to really gauge whether or not it in of itself is the issue, or if it's something that mainly takes advantage of the metagame climate, which is another reason why waiting until after WCoP for a survey or any kind of action is a good call. I'll be taking a look at it more recently alongside Heavy-Duty Boots to try and conclude whether or not I think they're problematic at all, or if I feel one or the other needs to be kept in check.
Honestly about boots, I think a clause is the most ideal thing, it is better than some random guy saying ban boots for non rocks weak, I dont think is the solution. With a clause, people will be more careful when they choose what mon will boots and avoid those zerarora, koko slow port dumb pivoting. If we aply this clause I am sure this will improve the meta, why, well this the gen where switch move are just too good. This will nerf a little bit the archetypes that are dominating now, specially BO and balance with the huge support that unpunished pivoting provides.
I think it'll work similar to Trick Room shenanigans, or even past generations with Speed creep. Both Speed creep and Reverse Speed creep are not uncommon, and with Trick Room Level 99 Pokemon have been used here and there when it was popular to use in some of the formats. I think the problem with Reverse Speed creep with Levels is, in theory, this of course leads to a more efficient Teleport in Teleport mirrors. The problem is the same as the forward Speed creep - if you go too far, you lose too much bulk. Not only that, but you also lose a little bit of power with Future Sight, which is one of the more important moves to make progress in some of the SS matches.
I don't think it's a gimmick so much as it's a situational presence. I'm sure we'll see it more and more. The question is - how far back can you go before you get nailed into the penalties of going backwards in levels? After all, Slowking being a pivot that has to take damage often means that losing defensive stats opens it a little more into potential KO ranges. You also lose potential on high rolls KOing or putting Pokemon into KO range with Future Sight, too. I think finding this "sweet spot" is hard too because it's not like Slowking needs to survive 2 hits from X Pokemon all the time - but rather within the course of the game it cannot get to the point where it's worn down too much through constant switching in and absorbing attacks while Teleporting and Regenerating some of its health.
Obviously this applies to Slowbro and Slowking-Galar too.
Quickly gonna start by saying this is kinda contradicting your next points because you start by saying Boots are the problem and then talk about Specs set vs offense? This post just feels tangled around, though i do agree on some points.
Regarding Dragapult:
Pult just, has so many stuff going for it. A ridiculous speed tier which makes Zeraora the only RELEVANT Pokémon that outspeeds it, ridiculously spammable attacks, good ofensive typing and overall a good movepool that allows it to go from a pivot to a special wallbreaker and cleaner or a scary sweeper with Dragon Dance (Which sucks, but hey, at least its something). I think these are the characteristics that make it broken (Because yes, imo it is).
Because of this Pult has a very limited counterplay; pivot set can spread status and switch out with U-turn if needed, while also avoiding chip damage from hazards thanks to boots, even though this set by itself lacks a bit of damage output if the opponent isnt statused, it requires turns to use the status moves, meaning that it can get damaged in that turn, and it also lacks any form of recovery. Specs Pult, on the other hand, is restricted to defensive counterplay, like Clefable, Heatran and Tyranitar. Some Pokémon can tank a Shadow Ball and fire back, but i wont go to deep on this because it needs you to sack a mon to send something like Rillaboom or Bulkarona safely. However, i think Pult isnt pushed over the edge because of its frailty, good, but kinda middling damage output, and weakness to chip damage (On non-boots sets) and Knock Off.
What should be done then?
I've already talked about this on OU discord server, but i think an alternative OU tier should be created. Idk its specific name, but i'll explain: Basically, an OU format where, weekly (or whatever), a Pokémon/ability/item gets restricted from that format to see how the metagame develops. Something like what was done on April Fools with the Zacian-C suspect or something. I think this is the way to determine how does Pult affect OU exactly: is it broken or not? does it force weird, useless on other scenarios counterplay? does it affect the tier negatively? etc.
Other stuff
I dont think Heavy-Duty Boots are close to be insane or something. Do they enable some specific Pokémon to be better? Yes. Do they make that Pokémon broken? On most cases, no (Yes, im looking at you, Cinderace). I also think Boots are kinda "balanced" by the ridiculous distribution of Knock Off in the tier, and removing Boots from OU would just make some stuff like Kartana and Chomp to go nuts.
On the Slowtins case, i think that of all stuff Future Sight should be the one banned. Future Sight enables sweepers or breakers like Watershifu and Kartana, Slowtins do not. I think this can also be tested on the OU format i suggested a bit ago: What should be banned: Regenerator, Future Sight, Teleport or Slowtins as a whole?
Cinderace and Urshifu-S should NOT be unbanned. They had a negative effect in the tier when they were freed, and they will affect negatively the tier if they come back, especially with Future Sight support, which wasnt a thing when these two were popular.
See ya later
I’m sure someone will eventually figure out the theoretical minimum level before Slowbro and Slowking stop doing their respective jobs eventually, like what happened with TR Cofag in NU last gen (it stops always OHKOing opposing Cofag with Never-Ending Nightmare below level 85, though it never did this in practice for obvious reasons). I remember Amoonguss sometimes dropped to level 49 in VGC back in gen 5 when flat rules didn’t level ‘mons up if they were below 50, but the trade-offs aren’t worthwhile after a very small amount of level creeping, especially given the diminishing returns for larger level drops.
For Slowking, I think that the only levels we might possibly see are level 96 (55 Spe), level 98 (56 Spe), level 99 (57 Spe), and level 100 (58 Spe). In practice, I doubt many people will drop below level 98 or 99. It’s just a matter of what the players think is worthwhile at the end of the day, and I doubt metagame trends will impact much unless the slowtwins stop being common for whatever reason and creeping consequently becomes largely pointless.
For Slowking, I think that the only levels we might possibly see are level 96 (55 Spe), level 98 (56 Spe), level 99 (57 Spe), and level 100 (58 Spe). In practice, I doubt many people will drop below level 98 or 99. It’s just a matter of what the players think is worthwhile at the end of the day, and I doubt metagame trends will impact much unless the slowtwins stop being common for whatever reason and creeping consequently becomes largely pointless.
I hate to write a one liner but that first line was meant to address the point of boots pult not being broken (imo) and to make sure that it was clear that I wouldn't be talking about boots pult in the rest of my post
but I am very bad at articulating my points properly so I get why that didn't come across as intended ;-;
Reading the discussion thread has been nauseating to say the least, so i may as well give my piece.
Anyway, to make this NOT a really short post, I'll throw in my two cents about Dragapult.
Oh dear god, where to even start with you?
To say that Dragapult has a stranglehold on this metagame...would be an incredible understatement. It's a near-uncontested option for speed control. It's a nigh-un-wall-able splitting headache against offense teams with its Choice Specs set. Anything that doesn't get put through the shredder with a near-un-resisted Shadow Ball is getting either popped by its expansive coverage [e: Mandibuzz and Corviknight getting throttled by a surprise Thunder, Ferrothorn getting microwaved against Flamethrower] or just pivoted on outright (Blissey and Tyranitar). Hell, i'd even argue it's just the best mon in the tier OUTRIGHT. Boots Hex and Dragon Dance sets aren't far behind either in terms of viability. The former can utilize status cheese of Serperior levels, while the latter can be a devastating sweeper with a little teammate support, despite the lack of a one-turn STAB. I firmly believe DD sets need to run Fire Blast however, due to corviknight being quite the issue without it. It should probably go without saying that i feel this thing is ridiculously unhealthy for the tier. and should be suspect tested, and in my opinion, banned.
Oh yeah sure man. Utterly drowning out any other form of discussion until you're settled with a suspect test is truly undeserving. Perhaps you prefer this current drowning of senseless policy review about if boots are the lord and savior of this tier or the devil himself. Clause, no clause? Ban no ban? Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start?
Anyway, to make this NOT a really short post, I'll throw in my two cents about Dragapult.
Oh dear god, where to even start with you?
To say that Dragapult has a stranglehold on this metagame...would be an incredible understatement. It's a near-uncontested option for speed control. It's a nigh-un-wall-able splitting headache against offense teams with its Choice Specs set. Anything that doesn't get put through the shredder with a near-un-resisted Shadow Ball is getting either popped by its expansive coverage [e: Mandibuzz and Corviknight getting throttled by a surprise Thunder, Ferrothorn getting microwaved against Flamethrower] or just pivoted on outright (Blissey and Tyranitar). Hell, i'd even argue it's just the best mon in the tier OUTRIGHT. Boots Hex and Dragon Dance sets aren't far behind either in terms of viability. The former can utilize status cheese of Serperior levels, while the latter can be a devastating sweeper with a little teammate support, despite the lack of a one-turn STAB. I firmly believe DD sets need to run Fire Blast however, due to corviknight being quite the issue without it. It should probably go without saying that i feel this thing is ridiculously unhealthy for the tier. and should be suspect tested, and in my opinion, banned.
This is essentially an old-style suspect test, where the Pokemon/factor in question was restricted in the alternate suspect ladder. The issues with this are that, 1) there is no reasonable way to have the suspect play out on a long enough timescale to properly assess the implications of the developments, 2) you want players to arrive at informed conclusions through hands-on experience, and restricting the access of players to the factor in question leads to a state where you're not really talking about the merits of the isolated factors, and 3) it fractures the playerbase too much for a substantial enough amount of players to be engaged in tiering.
In my opinion, the tier is stable enough at the moment for hasty tiering changes to be counter-productive, especially when considering that dramatic shifts like bans soon before major tournaments are a bad idea, as not only does it throw everything out of order for a good while, major tournaments also act as a pressure-cooker for metagame development and insight-gaining. Waiting is definitely the best option here.
Someone mentioned Jellicent a little while ago, and I gotta say, it's surprised me on how well it can do in OU. Sure, Dragapult is everywhere and so are the Dark-types, but hear me out.
Jellicent (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 192 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap / Recover
- Night Shade
Here's the set I've been using. Taunt is one of the main reasons to use this Pokemon imo. With it, you stone-wall and beat Blissey/Chansey, Toxapex, non-Power Whip Ferrothorn (and even then, Strength Sap + Burn from Wisp takes care of that), and Toxic Hippowdon just to name a few. Speed is to outpace Impish Corviknight, although you could probably run a bit more for Skarmory. 252 HP + 4 Def lets it eat a Banded Weavile's Knock Off with the aid of Colbur Berry after Stealth Rock, where you can then use Strength Sap to recover back to full and proceed to burn it with Wisp. Your choice between Strength Sap and Recover is up to you, but I like Sap since it helps neuter mons like Rillaboom, Landorus-T, and Weavile, but Recover gives you more health against Pokemon with poor Attack stats like Blissey/Chansey. Night Shade does consistent damage against most Pokemon in the metagame, preventing Substitute users and set-up sweepers like Volcarona from using Jellicent as set up fodder.
Speaking of Heatran, I'll explain now why Jellicent's matchup against Heatran lets it stand out from other Heatran checks. Its Ghost-typing allows it to not be trapped by Magma Storm, and while Jellicent hates coming in on Toxic, its immunity to being trapped means Toxic isn't the end of the world for it, and it can just swap out after firing off a Night Shade or something, or pull a double switch after taking the Magma Storm.
Jellicent also has some pretty good matchups against other Pokemon/archetypes outside of just being a good Heatran check. Like I said earlier, Taunt lets this Pokemon act as a good stallbreaker, letting it 1v1 the aforementioned Pex, Clef, Corviknight, Blissey and Chansey, although, again, it hates coming in on Toxic. Non-BB Corviknight are flat-out stone-walled, and are prevented from using Roost with Taunt. Ferrothorn is crippled by Wisp and can't use any of its status moves against this thing in a 1v1 fight. Many Rain staples are blanked by this mon, including Rapid Urshifu lacking Thunder Punch, Barraskewda lacking Crunch, and is not 2HKOd by Specs Kingdra's Draco Meteor. Jellicent is also a pretty good check to Nidoking, especially Timid variants. Jellicent's mighty special bulk allows it to come in on Nido's STABs and non-Electric coverage fairly easily, and Timid Thunderbolt only has a 31% chance to 2HKO. Nidoking's natural Attack is also pretty high, so Strength Sap lets Jellicent recover back to full.
With all of this said, it's not a mon without issues. The main one, imo, is its susceptibility to Toxic and chip damage from hazards, meaning it won't come in as easily as you'd like against the mons it's supposed to check over the course of a match. However, you can build your team around these issues. Defog Corviknight pairs very well with this Pokemon as their typings complement each other well with the exception of the stacked Electric weakness, which is easy to patch with a Ground-type and/or Zeraora. Clerics like Clefable and Dragonite also fit nicely with Jellicent, and appreciate Jellicent's ability to take on Nidoking.
Jellicent (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 192 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap / Recover
- Night Shade
Here's the set I've been using. Taunt is one of the main reasons to use this Pokemon imo. With it, you stone-wall and beat Blissey/Chansey, Toxapex, non-Power Whip Ferrothorn (and even then, Strength Sap + Burn from Wisp takes care of that), and Toxic Hippowdon just to name a few. Speed is to outpace Impish Corviknight, although you could probably run a bit more for Skarmory. 252 HP + 4 Def lets it eat a Banded Weavile's Knock Off with the aid of Colbur Berry after Stealth Rock, where you can then use Strength Sap to recover back to full and proceed to burn it with Wisp. Your choice between Strength Sap and Recover is up to you, but I like Sap since it helps neuter mons like Rillaboom, Landorus-T, and Weavile, but Recover gives you more health against Pokemon with poor Attack stats like Blissey/Chansey. Night Shade does consistent damage against most Pokemon in the metagame, preventing Substitute users and set-up sweepers like Volcarona from using Jellicent as set up fodder.
Speaking of Heatran, I'll explain now why Jellicent's matchup against Heatran lets it stand out from other Heatran checks. Its Ghost-typing allows it to not be trapped by Magma Storm, and while Jellicent hates coming in on Toxic, its immunity to being trapped means Toxic isn't the end of the world for it, and it can just swap out after firing off a Night Shade or something, or pull a double switch after taking the Magma Storm.
Jellicent also has some pretty good matchups against other Pokemon/archetypes outside of just being a good Heatran check. Like I said earlier, Taunt lets this Pokemon act as a good stallbreaker, letting it 1v1 the aforementioned Pex, Clef, Corviknight, Blissey and Chansey, although, again, it hates coming in on Toxic. Non-BB Corviknight are flat-out stone-walled, and are prevented from using Roost with Taunt. Ferrothorn is crippled by Wisp and can't use any of its status moves against this thing in a 1v1 fight. Many Rain staples are blanked by this mon, including Rapid Urshifu lacking Thunder Punch, Barraskewda lacking Crunch, and is not 2HKOd by Specs Kingdra's Draco Meteor. Jellicent is also a pretty good check to Nidoking, especially Timid variants. Jellicent's mighty special bulk allows it to come in on Nido's STABs and non-Electric coverage fairly easily, and Timid Thunderbolt only has a 31% chance to 2HKO. Nidoking's natural Attack is also pretty high, so Strength Sap lets Jellicent recover back to full.
With all of this said, it's not a mon without issues. The main one, imo, is its susceptibility to Toxic and chip damage from hazards, meaning it won't come in as easily as you'd like against the mons it's supposed to check over the course of a match. However, you can build your team around these issues. Defog Corviknight pairs very well with this Pokemon as their typings complement each other well with the exception of the stacked Electric weakness, which is easy to patch with a Ground-type and/or Zeraora. Clerics like Clefable and Dragonite also fit nicely with Jellicent, and appreciate Jellicent's ability to take on Nidoking.
Last edited:
Why not Night Shade, it helps with consistent chip on pokemon like clef, corviknight, and ferrothorn instead of relying on scald as your main attack, and you are actually not set up fother for pokemon like volcarona. Night Shade also allows to pressure sub more easily. Scald and will-o-wisp overlap a bit since they pretty much accomplish the same thing burning the opponent, and as I said this can help threaten pokemon like specs pult easily switching in on a scald
Jellicent (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 192 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap / Recover
- Scald
That's not a bad option, actually. You do make chipping down Blissey/Chansey a much longer process, but that still sounds like a good trade since you also chip Pex harder, too.
In what way is 8-10% per scald not a long process, they can just switch out into regen mons and just pivot out until ur stalled out of scald's since most teams also carry heal bell making it very tedious for it to force progress
That's true. My point was you'd at least combine that 10% with burn, whereas with Night Shade you do 0 and have to rely on solely burn damage to do anything to the pink mons. Regardless, I agree NS is better, and here's a replay of it in action against Rain:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1337070939-4rqtorhuf4nern8cndg4qba4vcwh1tipw
Last edited:
I’m sorry but what is this obsession with trying to go from one suspect to another, trying to figure out what needs to change. I feel like the truly broken mons are finally out, and the meta should be given a couple months to settle. I’ll admit I reside very low ladder and am not an amazing player whatsoever but I feel like people in this thread need to chill out w all the claims that x, y, or z is “brOKEn And UnhEAlthY”. The council has done an absolutely amazing job this gen listening to the player base and getting rid of mons that were overwhelming (Ace, Mag, Spec, and Shifu) but I think it’s time that we let the meta develop. We got a huge OU tourney coming up soon. Back in gen 7, these types of tourneys shifted play on the ladder, with the meta evolving naturally. I think the player base should wait for this tourney to pass before discussing if anything needs to be suspected.
And I honestly think stuff like item clause and banning boots is ridiculous. Item clause seems like a way to just unnecessarily limit team building. While banning boots may seem good in theory, we all know that boots are not broken as a whole. Boots give a fresh breath of viability to many types that have never seen the light of day in OU (and even some lower tiers). The player base should not be hellbent on banning boots. If anything, discuss certain mons that might be a bit over the top with boots.
I’m in no way trying to call out specific players, but I feel that those most vocal about changing the meta do not posses the skills necessary to get reqs for suspects. Reading all the posts people made here about Zama, then actually seeing who voted in the suspect thread opened my eyes. Take into account your own skill level before calling a drastic shift in the meta. Yes, I understand this is ironic coming from a 1300 player.
there will never be a “perfect meta”. And while I understand the desire to improve the meta, we must understand that banning certain items/mons/playstyles just because they might be very good or top tier is not enough justification. I honestly believe the current Gen 8 OU is better than Gen 7. It may be bulkier and harder to whittle down certain mons, but it sure as hell beats playing against Z-Giga Imapct Kart.
So this post isn’t just bitching, I’ll bring up a point of discussion. Why is this gen so much more focused on suspects and bans then last gen? Is it because of the council being more responsive? Is it because there are genuine problems my dumbass just doesn’t see? Or is it something else entirely?
And I honestly think stuff like item clause and banning boots is ridiculous. Item clause seems like a way to just unnecessarily limit team building. While banning boots may seem good in theory, we all know that boots are not broken as a whole. Boots give a fresh breath of viability to many types that have never seen the light of day in OU (and even some lower tiers). The player base should not be hellbent on banning boots. If anything, discuss certain mons that might be a bit over the top with boots.
I’m in no way trying to call out specific players, but I feel that those most vocal about changing the meta do not posses the skills necessary to get reqs for suspects. Reading all the posts people made here about Zama, then actually seeing who voted in the suspect thread opened my eyes. Take into account your own skill level before calling a drastic shift in the meta. Yes, I understand this is ironic coming from a 1300 player.
there will never be a “perfect meta”. And while I understand the desire to improve the meta, we must understand that banning certain items/mons/playstyles just because they might be very good or top tier is not enough justification. I honestly believe the current Gen 8 OU is better than Gen 7. It may be bulkier and harder to whittle down certain mons, but it sure as hell beats playing against Z-Giga Imapct Kart.
So this post isn’t just bitching, I’ll bring up a point of discussion. Why is this gen so much more focused on suspects and bans then last gen? Is it because of the council being more responsive? Is it because there are genuine problems my dumbass just doesn’t see? Or is it something else entirely?
My guess would be it's because of the huge changes brought by this gen- a new slew of broken/potentially broken pokemon every DLC is... not great lol (not to mention all the pokemon previously banned before that have to get retested). Also, usually at the beginning of the gen, some ubers are let free (Genesect has had this happen so much it's a meme at this point).
It's faulty to compare the current bunch of suspects to e.g. near the end of gen 7, because more change has happened that needs to be analyzed to find what's broken.
While I'm here: I think Dragapult is *clearly* broken and needs at least a suspect test, as it heavily restricts teambuilding (I basically have to put Mandibuzz on half my teams because the other checks don't fit, and half the time Mandi hardly fits.... so I'm often forced to use.. iffy ways of dealing with it with e.g. Zeraora).
I think it’s worth noting that some Pokémon listed here that possess Future Sight may lack Teleport but possess other pivot moves that can help maintain a switch advantage; for example, Future Sight + U-Turn Jirachi.
That is true, but U-Turn doesn't automatically give negative priority, and Jirachi (and most of the other other-pivot-move + Future Sight mons I think) are too fast to ensure it's a slow pivot (heck Jirachi often runs some speed too).
Notable exception would be Reuniclus with Future Sight + Volt Switch, but its slow Volt Switch can be blanked by Grounds.
Last edited: