I had steel roller on mine cuz it destroys terrains and is at least neutral on every single tapu
Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 224 SpD / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch / Superpower / filler
- Protect
This Melmetal tends to handle things defensively about as well as AV while having more longevity and a bit more flexibility. The EVs allow for maximizing damage output while living +Atk Pheromosa CC after SR and then pumping SDef. AV sets are better with max SDef instead of HP due to the stat distribution of Melmetal, fwiw, but regardless Protect + Leftovers accomplishes a lot of the same things while being better otherwise. It works very well on balance and even if it was better when Kyurem-Black was in the tier, a lot of teams still appreciate Melmetal and plenty of teams struggle to handle it in the long-haul.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
As I said in my post, the HP and Def is for living a +Atk Close Combat from Pheromosa, the attack is for maximizing damage output, and dumping the remainder into SDef makes more sense than HP due to the stat allocation of Melmetal, maximizing the remaining EVs towards special bulk. The only leftover EVs are in speed, which all Melmetal should run to creep Toxapex a bit (not saying this specific number, but at least some).
Steel Roller is weaker than IB-boosted DIB, so there's not any reason Mel wants to carry Steam Roller except to nuke terrain, but because the move fails if terrain isn't present it's a dead slot against any team without them, or if Mel is ever out on the field while Terrain isn't up. You also don't need coverage specifically for the Tapus, none of them can take a DIB. There's a little bit of merit to nuking terrain to disrupt the enemy team, but Defog or a terrain setter of your own does that job better.
So, lots of people have been talking about Zamazenta-C in OU. I’m glad, since I really wanted to push this discussion forward by jokingly asking Blunder to make a vid on it every new meta.
This time it's different though. I looked into it heavily; the calcs, the sets, the matchups, and some minor testing. I want to provide all the info I have on it vs the metagame all right here for everyone, instead of the daily OU room arguing with the same copy paste sentences “it invalidates HO” “its stats are broken” “howl 3 attacks is unwallable” yada yada. (Not going to confirm or deny the truth of these statements, we’ll let the “research” talk for us.)
So, let's start simple; the movepool. It's pretty big, but how many moves are worthwhile in OU? Let’s name em.
Close Combat - The only strong spammable fighting stab it has. Great move with great damage, however it does drop its defences, which are its main strength.
Behemoth Bash - Amazing Steel STAB, not much else to say for this one.
Wild Charge - To help it take on likely common answers like Toxapex, Moltres, Corviknight, Skarmory, and other offensive flying and water types (Torn, Urshifu-R, etc)
Ice Fang - To help it take on Pokemon such as Zapdos which also hard counter it, and secure kills on Pokemon like Landorus-Therian and Garchomp.
Psychic Fangs - A bit weaker at taking on Toxapex than Wild Charge, but lacks recoil AND lets you remove screens freely incase defogging proves difficult.
Crunch - Secure kills on Spectrier, Dragapult and any other worthwhile Ghost type (Blacephalon?)
Howl - Increase your attack, helps your breaking potential
Protect - I will explain this in detail later
Substitute - Sub Zamazenta is a decent lead vs webs teams
Other niche moves:
Agility + Reversal (+ Howl) - Could be a fun combo behind screens.
Revenge - Can be used on bulk invested sets that are slow and don’t want to drop their defences with Close Combat
Behemoth Bash - Amazing Steel STAB, not much else to say for this one.
Wild Charge - To help it take on likely common answers like Toxapex, Moltres, Corviknight, Skarmory, and other offensive flying and water types (Torn, Urshifu-R, etc)
Ice Fang - To help it take on Pokemon such as Zapdos which also hard counter it, and secure kills on Pokemon like Landorus-Therian and Garchomp.
Psychic Fangs - A bit weaker at taking on Toxapex than Wild Charge, but lacks recoil AND lets you remove screens freely incase defogging proves difficult.
Crunch - Secure kills on Spectrier, Dragapult and any other worthwhile Ghost type (Blacephalon?)
Howl - Increase your attack, helps your breaking potential
Protect - I will explain this in detail later
Substitute - Sub Zamazenta is a decent lead vs webs teams
Other niche moves:
Agility + Reversal (+ Howl) - Could be a fun combo behind screens.
Revenge - Can be used on bulk invested sets that are slow and don’t want to drop their defences with Close Combat
Now, we need EV spreads to go with these moves. Here are some I found could be viable;
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
Maximize Attack, Minimize Speed: This spread maximizes the damage Zamazenta can do, and keeps the most amount of speed it needs. The speed creeps base 110 Pokemon, such as Latios and Latias. Rest in HP.
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
Maximize Speed, Minimize Attack: Alternative offensive spread. This one still runs max attack but uses jolly nature to maximize the speed needed. 200 Speed creeps Tornadus-Therian and also lets it outspeed Jolly Cinderace. Rest in HP.
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
Maximize Speed, Minimize Defence: Fast Pivot spread, it uses the same speed in the above spread to outspeed the most amount of threats it can, and maximizes its bulk to live the most amount of attacks.
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 96 SpD / 140 Spe
Careful Nature
Maximize Spdef, Minimize Speed: This is a much more specially defensive variant. It still runs some speed, to creep Pokemon like Urshifu, Hydreigon, and Tapu Lele. The HP and Spdef + calm nature let it live a timid life orb pheromosa focus blast (Modest and/or specs require way too much investment to where you have neither your speed or power) and puts the remaining EV’s in defence.
Adamant Nature
Maximize Attack, Minimize Speed: This spread maximizes the damage Zamazenta can do, and keeps the most amount of speed it needs. The speed creeps base 110 Pokemon, such as Latios and Latias. Rest in HP.
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
Maximize Speed, Minimize Attack: Alternative offensive spread. This one still runs max attack but uses jolly nature to maximize the speed needed. 200 Speed creeps Tornadus-Therian and also lets it outspeed Jolly Cinderace. Rest in HP.
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
Maximize Speed, Minimize Defence: Fast Pivot spread, it uses the same speed in the above spread to outspeed the most amount of threats it can, and maximizes its bulk to live the most amount of attacks.
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 96 SpD / 140 Spe
Careful Nature
Maximize Spdef, Minimize Speed: This is a much more specially defensive variant. It still runs some speed, to creep Pokemon like Urshifu, Hydreigon, and Tapu Lele. The HP and Spdef + calm nature let it live a timid life orb pheromosa focus blast (Modest and/or specs require way too much investment to where you have neither your speed or power) and puts the remaining EV’s in defence.
Now, we need to look into actual sets and their matchups vs common defensive cores or offence styles in the current metagame. In the spoiler tag below I will past a set and then go into what kind of cores it beats. I will be using some updated versions of the sample teams’ cores as a basis, since “common cores “right now are pretty hard to determine with the ever changing meta and we have no idea what will be more valuable when/if Zama drops, but I will make loose guesses based off what is used right now.
SET MATCHUPS AND CALCS:
Howl + 3 Attacks Breaker:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge / Ice Fang
- Howl
This sets main strength is supposed to be to break bulkier cores. Bulky Offence is severely threatened by this, as Zamazenta (paired with wish support especially) is really hard to revenge kill. 2-man defensive cores have a difficult time killing a well supported Howl Zamazenta, and Zama can keep up the pressure on them. However, bulky offences with any helmet physically defensive pivot can also apply that same pressure on Zama, easily tanking its unboosted attacks on the switch and surviving its +1 attacks with relative ease.
Relevant defensive pokemon:
Calcs:
Zamazenta vs Corviknight, most damage unboosted -
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 151-178 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zamazenta vs Corviknight, most damage boosted -
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 226-266 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Recoil: (17.1 - 20.1% Recoil Damage) + (16% Helmet Damage) = (33.1% - 36.1 Damage on Contact)
Corviknight vs Zamazenta, damage in return -
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 120-142 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
1v1 Scenario: Zamazenta Howls as Corviknight comes in, turn 2, Zamazenta fire off +1 Wild Charge, gets max roll as Corviknight roosts, takes (33.1% - 36.1 recoil total). For sake of argument, Zamazaneta max rolled the Corviknight and had rocks damage.
66.5% + 12% = 78.5% damage done.
Health left:
100% - 78.5% = 21.5%
Health after roost:
21.5% + 50% = 71.5%
Corviknight has the HP to survive another and finish Zamazenta off with Body Press + another round of the recoils.
As to avoid filling this page with more calcs and simple math, Slowbro takes 0.1% less than corv from boosted Wild Charge, however the damage he does in return isn’t as substantial as Corviknights, so 1v1’s require scald burns or rocks to not be up, so you can helmet chip for 3 turns. Toxapex gets 2hko’d if you get a min-high roll +1 Wild Charge and then another min-high roll unboosted wild charge after haze. Requires scald burn otherwise it loses. Tangrowth gets near clean 2hko’d by +1 CC, but can status it while absorbing the hit.
Overall, from the helmet users, 2/4 can beat Zamazenta reliably, the other 2 can cripple it or threaten it at the very least. Keep in mind, if 2 of these pokemon are paired together (Pex + Tangrowth, Pex + Corv, Corv + Slowbro, Corv + Tangrowth) then Zamazenta is likely never breaking through.
Now, for Howl Zama vs the flying types.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Moltres: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (51.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moltres loses to Howl. At most it can Flame Body burn, or get a suicide defog or wisp off.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.4 - 12.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 76-90 (23 - 27.2%) -- 50.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zapdos survives non Ice Fang variants comfortably and beats it. As for Ice Fang variants -
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 200-236 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos can lose, but dropping fighting stab makes Zama super wallable by steels or even stuff like Swampert. Dropping Wild Charge makes it lose to all the aforementioned walls, so thats a no-go. Most disposable move is Behemoth Blade, but now you are relying on Wild Charge to beat Clefable. Overall, Zapdos should wall most Zamazenta’s.
Defensive Landorus-Therian also loses to Ice Fang variants, but non Ice Fang loses. Intimidate cancelling out Howl lets lando eat 2 behemoth bashes. Zama however, cannot eat 2 earthquakes.
Other relevant info:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 204-240 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While this does 2hko….
252+ Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 206-246 (62.4 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(24.6 - 29.4% recovered)
I chose max hp max attack buzzwole since that has been getting pretty popular lately. Defensive buzzwole walls, forever.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 318-374 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 336-396 (101.8 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In a face-to-face situation, band Melmetal can beat Zamazenta. Not on the switch, however. How much bulk does Melmetal need to tank boosted CC?
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Melmetal: 398-470 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Melmetal’s damage with leftover EV’s:
152 Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Vs Max HP Aegislash:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 101-119 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 109-130 (33 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
Between Kings Shield and Lefties, this is winnable for Aegislash.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge / Ice Fang
- Howl
This sets main strength is supposed to be to break bulkier cores. Bulky Offence is severely threatened by this, as Zamazenta (paired with wish support especially) is really hard to revenge kill. 2-man defensive cores have a difficult time killing a well supported Howl Zamazenta, and Zama can keep up the pressure on them. However, bulky offences with any helmet physically defensive pivot can also apply that same pressure on Zama, easily tanking its unboosted attacks on the switch and surviving its +1 attacks with relative ease.
Relevant defensive pokemon:
Calcs:
Zamazenta vs Corviknight, most damage unboosted -
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 151-178 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zamazenta vs Corviknight, most damage boosted -
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 226-266 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Recoil: (17.1 - 20.1% Recoil Damage) + (16% Helmet Damage) = (33.1% - 36.1 Damage on Contact)
Corviknight vs Zamazenta, damage in return -
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 120-142 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
1v1 Scenario: Zamazenta Howls as Corviknight comes in, turn 2, Zamazenta fire off +1 Wild Charge, gets max roll as Corviknight roosts, takes (33.1% - 36.1 recoil total). For sake of argument, Zamazaneta max rolled the Corviknight and had rocks damage.
66.5% + 12% = 78.5% damage done.
Health left:
100% - 78.5% = 21.5%
Health after roost:
21.5% + 50% = 71.5%
Corviknight has the HP to survive another and finish Zamazenta off with Body Press + another round of the recoils.
As to avoid filling this page with more calcs and simple math, Slowbro takes 0.1% less than corv from boosted Wild Charge, however the damage he does in return isn’t as substantial as Corviknights, so 1v1’s require scald burns or rocks to not be up, so you can helmet chip for 3 turns. Toxapex gets 2hko’d if you get a min-high roll +1 Wild Charge and then another min-high roll unboosted wild charge after haze. Requires scald burn otherwise it loses. Tangrowth gets near clean 2hko’d by +1 CC, but can status it while absorbing the hit.
Overall, from the helmet users, 2/4 can beat Zamazenta reliably, the other 2 can cripple it or threaten it at the very least. Keep in mind, if 2 of these pokemon are paired together (Pex + Tangrowth, Pex + Corv, Corv + Slowbro, Corv + Tangrowth) then Zamazenta is likely never breaking through.
Now, for Howl Zama vs the flying types.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Moltres: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (51.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moltres loses to Howl. At most it can Flame Body burn, or get a suicide defog or wisp off.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.4 - 12.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 76-90 (23 - 27.2%) -- 50.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zapdos survives non Ice Fang variants comfortably and beats it. As for Ice Fang variants -
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 200-236 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos can lose, but dropping fighting stab makes Zama super wallable by steels or even stuff like Swampert. Dropping Wild Charge makes it lose to all the aforementioned walls, so thats a no-go. Most disposable move is Behemoth Blade, but now you are relying on Wild Charge to beat Clefable. Overall, Zapdos should wall most Zamazenta’s.
Defensive Landorus-Therian also loses to Ice Fang variants, but non Ice Fang loses. Intimidate cancelling out Howl lets lando eat 2 behemoth bashes. Zama however, cannot eat 2 earthquakes.
Other relevant info:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 204-240 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While this does 2hko….
252+ Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 206-246 (62.4 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(24.6 - 29.4% recovered)
I chose max hp max attack buzzwole since that has been getting pretty popular lately. Defensive buzzwole walls, forever.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 318-374 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 336-396 (101.8 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In a face-to-face situation, band Melmetal can beat Zamazenta. Not on the switch, however. How much bulk does Melmetal need to tank boosted CC?
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Melmetal: 398-470 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Melmetal’s damage with leftover EV’s:
152 Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Vs Max HP Aegislash:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 101-119 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 109-130 (33 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
Between Kings Shield and Lefties, this is winnable for Aegislash.
Conclusion for Howl Zamazenta, its role on teams is very hit and run, severely damaging one pokemon or killing it, and then being easily killed off in the process. Wish support can allow it to get away with this more times in a match, but better pokemon fit this role in current OU imo. Magearna and Melmetal are also very bulky pokemon with hard to resist coverage and insane damage. On top of that they have the moves and freedom to run an item that allows them to get past any and all checks, so I don’t see what Zama brings to the table that we don’t already deal with in OU. He may be fast, but speed is rarely ever a factor in the 1v1’s Howl Zamazenta is taking vs current OU.
Lets see if the same holds for other sets.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Close Combat
- Ice Fang / Crunch
- Wild Charge
I will not provide calcs vs defensive pokemon this time, we all saw his damage while adamant AND boosted against defensive walls. You can calc on your own, but I can assure you, he fails to 2hko all the aforementioned defensive Pokemon.
But lets see if the so called offence slayer actually slays offence.
I will provide calcs for Zamazenta vs common offensive threats. I won’t be including screens or webs sets, as those are situational instances AND I have sets I feel like counter those better which I will get into later.
Scarf Lando-T 1v1:
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 258-306 (76.1 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lando-T outspeeds and 2hkos. However, non scarff variants lose, as Zama also tanks, outspeeds and 2hkos.
Cinderace 1v1:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 249-294 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 38-45 (11.2 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
Cinderace wins this. If Zamazenta switches into HJK, it dies to the following sucker punch without any damage done in return. If the Cinderace doesn’t have sucker, it just survives CC and kills with another attack. If Zamazenta was already in when Cinderace clicked HJK, then Zama would attack first, dropping its defence with CC, and letting Cinderace kill it with HJK. No Sucker Punch needed. Also worth noting this calc is Jolly Cinderace. Some run Adamant, which kills.
Barraskewda 1v1:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 240-283 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Avoid the CC roll or stay out of liquidation range, and you can always OHKO it back with CC or Wild Charge.
Specs Dragapult 1v1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 178-210 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 222-262 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zama gets outsped and 2hko’d, while failing to OHKO back.
Hex Dragapult 1v1:
252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 111-131 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 129-153 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Dragapult takes 1 hit while wisping, then fires off 2 Hexes, doing good damage but not killing, and dying in the process. Zamazenta wins this one. Alternatively you can burn and uturn into something else that just tanks or kills it.
Specs Magearna 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 253-298 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 175-207 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mage can easily 2hko it on the switch and survive its Close Combat. If Zamazenta is already in, it will Close Combat the magearna, drop its spdef, and die to fleur, making it lose still. For this calc I used 0 HP Mage since people use many diff Hp or Defence spreads, so behemoth bash 2hkos. It doesn’t take much investment to survive it though.
Urshifu 1v1:
Both Urshifu and Zamazenta OHKO each other, so Zama can't switch into CC, but Urshifu can’t stay in and fight it either. Noteworthy: Urshifu after a bulk up survives Zama’s CC, and can kill it back.
Nidoking 1v1:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 273-322 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 204-240 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kind of surprising, but Zamazenta wins this one, lol.
Pheromosa 1v1:
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (113.5 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 296-350 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (113.5 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, non choice Phero’s can all send Zamazenta to hell. Best part is, it can actually switch into all of Zama’s moves bar behemoth bash too, so you can actually come in and kill it if you predict right as well. (Ban Phero pls)
Regieleki 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-259 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 340-402 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zama tanks and beats thunderbolt Eleki. Rising Voltage + Terrain obviously beats it though. Set dependent, but generally in Zama’s favour.
Wisp Spectrier 1v1:
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spectrier is faster and has the turns to 2hko Zamazenta.
Specs Spectrier 1v1:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
Spectrier can win on roll or with any form of minor chip. Zama has a favourable chance to survive though. 50-50 I’d say.
Banded G-Zapdos 1v1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 214-254 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Galar Zapdos tanks and wins.
Kingdra 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 213-252 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 205-243 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kingdra wins this one in a face to face.
Life Orb Excadrill 1v1:
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 320-377 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 590-696 (163.4 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kind of a 50-50? I’d give this one to Excadrill. Leftovers Excadrill however, does lose. Tech Chople Berry guarantees the win :)
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike 1v1 (Rain):
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 342-405 (100.8 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 306-363 (90.2 - 107%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Urshifu wins majority of the time.
Obvious threats like Kartana, Magnezone, Kyurem, Lele etc all lose. Melmetal I covered in the Howl calcs.
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Close Combat
- Ice Fang / Crunch
- Wild Charge
I will not provide calcs vs defensive pokemon this time, we all saw his damage while adamant AND boosted against defensive walls. You can calc on your own, but I can assure you, he fails to 2hko all the aforementioned defensive Pokemon.
But lets see if the so called offence slayer actually slays offence.
I will provide calcs for Zamazenta vs common offensive threats. I won’t be including screens or webs sets, as those are situational instances AND I have sets I feel like counter those better which I will get into later.
Scarf Lando-T 1v1:
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 258-306 (76.1 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lando-T outspeeds and 2hkos. However, non scarff variants lose, as Zama also tanks, outspeeds and 2hkos.
Cinderace 1v1:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 249-294 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 38-45 (11.2 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
Cinderace wins this. If Zamazenta switches into HJK, it dies to the following sucker punch without any damage done in return. If the Cinderace doesn’t have sucker, it just survives CC and kills with another attack. If Zamazenta was already in when Cinderace clicked HJK, then Zama would attack first, dropping its defence with CC, and letting Cinderace kill it with HJK. No Sucker Punch needed. Also worth noting this calc is Jolly Cinderace. Some run Adamant, which kills.
Barraskewda 1v1:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 240-283 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Avoid the CC roll or stay out of liquidation range, and you can always OHKO it back with CC or Wild Charge.
Specs Dragapult 1v1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 178-210 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 222-262 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zama gets outsped and 2hko’d, while failing to OHKO back.
Hex Dragapult 1v1:
252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 111-131 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 129-153 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Dragapult takes 1 hit while wisping, then fires off 2 Hexes, doing good damage but not killing, and dying in the process. Zamazenta wins this one. Alternatively you can burn and uturn into something else that just tanks or kills it.
Specs Magearna 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 253-298 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 175-207 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mage can easily 2hko it on the switch and survive its Close Combat. If Zamazenta is already in, it will Close Combat the magearna, drop its spdef, and die to fleur, making it lose still. For this calc I used 0 HP Mage since people use many diff Hp or Defence spreads, so behemoth bash 2hkos. It doesn’t take much investment to survive it though.
Urshifu 1v1:
Both Urshifu and Zamazenta OHKO each other, so Zama can't switch into CC, but Urshifu can’t stay in and fight it either. Noteworthy: Urshifu after a bulk up survives Zama’s CC, and can kill it back.
Nidoking 1v1:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 273-322 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 204-240 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kind of surprising, but Zamazenta wins this one, lol.
Pheromosa 1v1:
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (113.5 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 296-350 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (113.5 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, non choice Phero’s can all send Zamazenta to hell. Best part is, it can actually switch into all of Zama’s moves bar behemoth bash too, so you can actually come in and kill it if you predict right as well. (Ban Phero pls)
Regieleki 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-259 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 340-402 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zama tanks and beats thunderbolt Eleki. Rising Voltage + Terrain obviously beats it though. Set dependent, but generally in Zama’s favour.
Wisp Spectrier 1v1:
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spectrier is faster and has the turns to 2hko Zamazenta.
Specs Spectrier 1v1:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
Spectrier can win on roll or with any form of minor chip. Zama has a favourable chance to survive though. 50-50 I’d say.
Banded G-Zapdos 1v1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 214-254 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Galar Zapdos tanks and wins.
Kingdra 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 213-252 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 205-243 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kingdra wins this one in a face to face.
Life Orb Excadrill 1v1:
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 320-377 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 590-696 (163.4 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kind of a 50-50? I’d give this one to Excadrill. Leftovers Excadrill however, does lose. Tech Chople Berry guarantees the win :)
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike 1v1 (Rain):
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 342-405 (100.8 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 306-363 (90.2 - 107%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Urshifu wins majority of the time.
Obvious threats like Kartana, Magnezone, Kyurem, Lele etc all lose. Melmetal I covered in the Howl calcs.
This thing is relatively good at winning 1v1’s I’d say, but its nothing that most other fast strong mons can’t do, maybe even better honestly. I still feel my comparison to melmetal holds true. They may beat different pokemon though, but that “beat 1 oppressive threat and die” playstyle still fits. Take that how you will.
Last 2 sets I want to cover. The actual anti hyper offence sets. Namely Webs and Screens. Hazard stack beats Zamazenta surprisingly well, as Spikes puts it in range of losing many 1v1’s. Now then, the anti screens Zamazenta.
Anti Screens:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 96 SpD / 128 Spe
Careful Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Psychic Fangs
- Metal Burst
So, yeah. We have a bulky Zamazenta that has psychic fangs to remove screens, and the bulk to tank setup moves and metal burst them back. Speed for strong pokemon like Lele, Kyurem, Hydreigon and Urshifu is kept so we can still beat them with faster CC’s and Bash’s.
Thanks to Psychic Fangs, we can completely rule out screens in our calcs, which is great. Now, note that this set is really really bad against remotely bulky teams, but even against those it can force a KO on a powerful breaker, so its not entirely useless.
So, Magearna with a Iron Defence, a Calm Mind, and a Weakness Policy all popped, AND max special attack just because. Do you survive?
+3 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes, yes you do.
And you metal burst it back.
No other calcs are really worth mentioning, his 1v1’s vs other offensive pokemon play out relatively the same way, he's just bulkier but weaker. The idea of removing screens from the equation and then being able to remove a pokemon like a super-setup Magearna is really great though.
Anti-Webs:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Crunch
Yeah, not much to go over here. Ada Zamazenta can 2hko any offensive mon for the most part, and thanks to sub he gets those 2 attacks off. Main webber in OU rn is Shuckle, who you can sub on as it sets webs. Might need to outplay encore, but the general idea is you take out shuckle and another mon with it since all webs mons are generally gonna be slower, then die/defog with another mon later and repeat the cycle with Zama.
One last wack set:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reversal
- Behemoth Bash
- Howl
- Agility
I tried this on screens, has the speed to outspeed +1 Phero after agility. Its wack lol but can be cool in HO mirror. Thats about it.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 96 SpD / 128 Spe
Careful Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Psychic Fangs
- Metal Burst
So, yeah. We have a bulky Zamazenta that has psychic fangs to remove screens, and the bulk to tank setup moves and metal burst them back. Speed for strong pokemon like Lele, Kyurem, Hydreigon and Urshifu is kept so we can still beat them with faster CC’s and Bash’s.
Thanks to Psychic Fangs, we can completely rule out screens in our calcs, which is great. Now, note that this set is really really bad against remotely bulky teams, but even against those it can force a KO on a powerful breaker, so its not entirely useless.
So, Magearna with a Iron Defence, a Calm Mind, and a Weakness Policy all popped, AND max special attack just because. Do you survive?
+3 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes, yes you do.
And you metal burst it back.
No other calcs are really worth mentioning, his 1v1’s vs other offensive pokemon play out relatively the same way, he's just bulkier but weaker. The idea of removing screens from the equation and then being able to remove a pokemon like a super-setup Magearna is really great though.
Anti-Webs:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Crunch
Yeah, not much to go over here. Ada Zamazenta can 2hko any offensive mon for the most part, and thanks to sub he gets those 2 attacks off. Main webber in OU rn is Shuckle, who you can sub on as it sets webs. Might need to outplay encore, but the general idea is you take out shuckle and another mon with it since all webs mons are generally gonna be slower, then die/defog with another mon later and repeat the cycle with Zama.
One last wack set:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reversal
- Behemoth Bash
- Howl
- Agility
I tried this on screens, has the speed to outspeed +1 Phero after agility. Its wack lol but can be cool in HO mirror. Thats about it.
One final note, a set with 3 attacks and protect to scout choiced mons could be great on balance. Anyways;
In conclusion, just like a lot of other OU pokemon rn, Zamazenta can do alot, but not alot at once. Whether or not he should drop is up for debate, but I’ve laid out his strengths and weaknesses. I just don’t like people leaving it at their theory that it beats any and all offence like some god sweeper, it’s a trade and kill type of pokemon, that can also apply offensive pressure. If its stats/being a box legendary is peoples argument against it, I just want to remind you all we gave Kyurem-Black a chance in SM and it stayed, and another chance this gen.
Overall, I for one, am all for unbanning it, but maybe AFTER we’ve banned threats that should go and the meta is in a more stable place.
Ban Pheromosa and Magearna.
Random fun replays I had with Gomikyu lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228902553
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228904233
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228905426
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228906564
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228907850
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228904233
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228905426
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228906564
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228907850
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
nah I’m pretty sick of that goddamn cockroach it seriously needs to go, especially in high tiers of play the guessing game is just outta control and the snowballing effect is just absolutely ridiculous. Especially since it's often paired with melmetal and/or urshifu/spectrier, just overall truly a ridiculous mon that is clearly for sure getting banned. I do not understand the hesitation on it or people saying that it's not broken. Blazek I truly get (even though I believe that it's broken), I get people's POV for now. but the roach? are yall actually serious bruh lol this isnt me being coy I seriously want to know if you are being for real. The sheer immediate power this thing possesses and the ability to get +spa, +attack, or +speed is just a dumbass ability. When you guess wrong - which you absolutely wil - you're punished severely, and for what? Not to mention that this is a team sport, getting this to snowball is truly really easy
I know I just posted this, but its been brought to my attention that the damage calc for Zamazenta is a bit weird. The calc shows +1 defence when I hit calc, but the damage doesn't change. Whether this means the damage should be higher or lower yet, I dont know. But overall it shouldn't effect the calc...too much? Will try and fix later.View attachment 293371
So, lots of people have been talking about Zamazenta-C in OU. I’m glad, since I really wanted to push this discussion forward by jokingly asking Blunder to make a vid on it every new meta.
This time it's different though. I looked into it heavily; the calcs, the sets, the matchups, and some minor testing. I want to provide all the info I have on it vs the metagame all right here for everyone, instead of the daily OU room arguing with the same copy paste sentences “it invalidates HO” “its stats are broken” “howl 3 attacks is unwallable” yada yada. (Not going to confirm or deny the truth of these statements, we’ll let the “research” talk for us.)
So, let's start simple; the movepool. It's pretty big, but how many moves are worthwhile in OU? Let’s name em.
Close Combat - The only strong spammable fighting stab it has. Great move with great damage, however it does drop its defences, which are its main strength.
Behemoth Bash - Amazing Steel STAB, not much else to say for this one.
Wild Charge - To help it take on likely common answers like Toxapex, Moltres, Corviknight, Skarmory, and other offensive flying and water types (Torn, Urshifu-R, etc)
Ice Fang - To help it take on Pokemon such as Zapdos which also hard counter it, and secure kills on Pokemon like Landorus-Therian and Garchomp.
Psychic Fangs - A bit weaker at taking on Toxapex than Wild Charge, but lacks recoil AND lets you remove screens freely incase defogging proves difficult.
Crunch - Secure kills on Spectrier, Dragapult and any other worthwhile Ghost type (Blacephalon?)
Howl - Increase your attack, helps your breaking potential
Protect - I will explain this in detail later
Substitute - Sub Zamazenta is a decent lead vs webs teams
Other niche moves:
Agility + Reversal (+ Howl) - Could be a fun combo behind screens.
Revenge - Can be used on bulk invested sets that are slow and don’t want to drop their defences with Close Combat
Now, we need EV spreads to go with these moves. Here are some I found could be viable;
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
Maximize Attack, Minimize Speed: This spread maximizes the damage Zamazenta can do, and keeps the most amount of speed it needs. The speed creeps base 110 Pokemon, such as Latios and Latias. Rest in HP.
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
Maximize Speed, Minimize Attack: Alternative offensive spread. This one still runs max attack but uses jolly nature to maximize the speed needed. 200 Speed creeps Tornadus-Therian and also lets it outspeed Jolly Cinderace. Rest in HP.
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
Maximize Speed, Minimize Defence: Fast Pivot spread, it uses the same speed in the above spread to outspeed the most amount of threats it can, and maximizes its bulk to live the most amount of attacks.
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 96 SpD / 140 Spe
Careful Nature
Maximize Spdef, Minimize Speed: This is a much more specially defensive variant. It still runs some speed, to creep Pokemon like Urshifu, Hydreigon, and Tapu Lele. The HP and Spdef + calm nature let it live a timid life orb pheromosa focus blast (Modest and/or specs require way too much investment to where you have neither your speed or power) and puts the remaining EV’s in defence.
Now, we need to look into actual sets and their matchups vs common defensive cores or offence styles in the current metagame. In the spoiler tag below I will past a set and then go into what kind of cores it beats. I will be using some updated versions of the sample teams’ cores as a basis, since “common cores “right now are pretty hard to determine with the ever changing meta and we have no idea what will be more valuable when/if Zama drops, but I will make loose guesses based off what is used right now.
SET MATCHUPS AND CALCS:
Howl + 3 Attacks Breaker:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge / Ice Fang
- Howl
This sets main strength is supposed to be to break bulkier cores. Bulky Offence is severely threatened by this, as Zamazenta (paired with wish support especially) is really hard to revenge kill. 2-man defensive cores have a difficult time killing a well supported Howl Zamazenta, and Zama can keep up the pressure on them. However, bulky offences with any helmet physically defensive pivot can also apply that same pressure on Zama, easily tanking its unboosted attacks on the switch and surviving its +1 attacks with relative ease.
Relevant defensive pokemon:
Calcs:
Zamazenta vs Corviknight, most damage unboosted -
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 151-178 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zamazenta vs Corviknight, most damage boosted -
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 226-266 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Recoil: (17.1 - 20.1% Recoil Damage) + (16% Helmet Damage) = (33.1% - 36.1 Damage on Contact)
Corviknight vs Zamazenta, damage in return -
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 120-142 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
1v1 Scenario: Zamazenta Howls as Corviknight comes in, turn 2, Zamazenta fire off +1 Wild Charge, gets max roll as Corviknight roosts, takes (33.1% - 36.1 recoil total). For sake of argument, Zamazaneta max rolled the Corviknight and had rocks damage.
66.5% + 12% = 78.5% damage done.
Health left:
100% - 78.5% = 21.5%
Health after roost:
21.5% + 50% = 71.5%
Corviknight has the HP to survive another and finish Zamazenta off with Body Press + another round of the recoils.
As to avoid filling this page with more calcs and simple math, Slowbro takes 0.1% less than corv from boosted Wild Charge, however the damage he does in return isn’t as substantial as Corviknights, so 1v1’s require scald burns or rocks to not be up, so you can helmet chip for 3 turns. Toxapex gets 2hko’d if you get a min-high roll +1 Wild Charge and then another min-high roll unboosted wild charge after haze. Requires scald burn otherwise it loses. Tangrowth gets near clean 2hko’d by +1 CC, but can status it while absorbing the hit.
Overall, from the helmet users, 2/4 can beat Zamazenta reliably, the other 2 can cripple it or threaten it at the very least. Keep in mind, if 2 of these pokemon are paired together (Pex + Tangrowth, Pex + Corv, Corv + Slowbro, Corv + Tangrowth) then Zamazenta is likely never breaking through.
Now, for Howl Zama vs the flying types.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Moltres: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (51.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moltres loses to Howl. At most it can Flame Body burn, or get a suicide defog or wisp off.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.4 - 12.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 76-90 (23 - 27.2%) -- 50.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zapdos survives non Ice Fang variants comfortably and beats it. As for Ice Fang variants -
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 200-236 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos can lose, but dropping fighting stab makes Zama super wallable by steels or even stuff like Swampert. Dropping Wild Charge makes it lose to all the aforementioned walls, so thats a no-go. Most disposable move is Behemoth Blade, but now you are relying on Wild Charge to beat Clefable. Overall, Zapdos should wall most Zamazenta’s.
Defensive Landorus-Therian also loses to Ice Fang variants, but non Ice Fang loses. Intimidate cancelling out Howl lets lando eat 2 behemoth bashes. Zama however, cannot eat 2 earthquakes.
Other relevant info:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 204-240 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While this does 2hko….
252+ Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 206-246 (62.4 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(24.6 - 29.4% recovered)
I chose max hp max attack buzzwole since that has been getting pretty popular lately. Defensive buzzwole walls, forever.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 318-374 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 336-396 (101.8 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In a face-to-face situation, band Melmetal can beat Zamazenta. Not on the switch, however. How much bulk does Melmetal need to tank boosted CC?
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Melmetal: 398-470 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Melmetal’s damage with leftover EV’s:
152 Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. +1 20 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Vs Max HP Aegislash:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 101-119 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 109-130 (33 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
Between Kings Shield and Lefties, this is winnable for Aegislash.
Conclusion for Howl Zamazenta, its role on teams is very hit and run, severely damaging one pokemon or killing it, and then being easily killed off in the process. Wish support can allow it to get away with this more times in a match, but better pokemon fit this role in current OU imo. Magearna and Melmetal are also very bulky pokemon with hard to resist coverage and insane damage. On top of that they have the moves and freedom to run an item that allows them to get past any and all checks, so I don’t see what Zama brings to the table that we don’t already deal with in OU. He may be fast, but speed is rarely ever a factor in the 1v1’s Howl Zamazenta is taking vs current OU.
Lets see if the same holds for other sets.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Close Combat
- Ice Fang / Crunch
- Wild Charge
I will not provide calcs vs defensive pokemon this time, we all saw his damage while adamant AND boosted against defensive walls. You can calc on your own, but I can assure you, he fails to 2hko all the aforementioned defensive Pokemon.
But lets see if the so called offence slayer actually slays offence.
I will provide calcs for Zamazenta vs common offensive threats. I won’t be including screens or webs sets, as those are situational instances AND I have sets I feel like counter those better which I will get into later.
Scarf Lando-T 1v1:
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 258-306 (76.1 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lando-T outspeeds and 2hkos. However, non scarff variants lose, as Zama also tanks, outspeeds and 2hkos.
Cinderace 1v1:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 249-294 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 38-45 (11.2 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
Cinderace wins this. If Zamazenta switches into HJK, it dies to the following sucker punch without any damage done in return. If the Cinderace doesn’t have sucker, it just survives CC and kills with another attack. If Zamazenta was already in when Cinderace clicked HJK, then Zama would attack first, dropping its defence with CC, and letting Cinderace kill it with HJK. No Sucker Punch needed. Also worth noting this calc is Jolly Cinderace. Some run Adamant, which kills.
Barraskewda 1v1:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 240-283 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Avoid the CC roll or stay out of liquidation range, and you can always OHKO it back with CC or Wild Charge.
Specs Dragapult 1v1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 178-210 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 222-262 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zama gets outsped and 2hko’d, while failing to OHKO back.
Hex Dragapult 1v1:
252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 111-131 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 129-153 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Dragapult takes 1 hit while wisping, then fires off 2 Hexes, doing good damage but not killing, and dying in the process. Zamazenta wins this one. Alternatively you can burn and uturn into something else that just tanks or kills it.
Specs Magearna 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 253-298 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 175-207 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mage can easily 2hko it on the switch and survive its Close Combat. If Zamazenta is already in, it will Close Combat the magearna, drop its spdef, and die to fleur, making it lose still. For this calc I used 0 HP Mage since people use many diff Hp or Defence spreads, so behemoth bash 2hkos. It doesn’t take much investment to survive it though.
Urshifu 1v1:
Both Urshifu and Zamazenta OHKO each other, so Zama can't switch into CC, but Urshifu can’t stay in and fight it either. Noteworthy: Urshifu after a bulk up survives Zama’s CC, and can kill it back.
Nidoking 1v1:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 273-322 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 204-240 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kind of surprising, but Zamazenta wins this one, lol.
Pheromosa 1v1:
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (113.5 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 296-350 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (113.5 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, non choice Phero’s can all send Zamazenta to hell. Best part is, it can actually switch into all of Zama’s moves bar behemoth bash too, so you can actually come in and kill it if you predict right as well. (Ban Phero pls)
Regieleki 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-259 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 340-402 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zama tanks and beats thunderbolt Eleki. Rising Voltage + Terrain obviously beats it though. Set dependent, but generally in Zama’s favour.
Wisp Spectrier 1v1:
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spectrier is faster and has the turns to 2hko Zamazenta.
Specs Spectrier 1v1:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
Spectrier can win on roll or with any form of minor chip. Zama has a favourable chance to survive though. 50-50 I’d say.
Banded G-Zapdos 1v1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 214-254 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Galar Zapdos tanks and wins.
Kingdra 1v1:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain: 213-252 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 205-243 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kingdra wins this one in a face to face.
Life Orb Excadrill 1v1:
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +1 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 320-377 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 590-696 (163.4 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kind of a 50-50? I’d give this one to Excadrill. Leftovers Excadrill however, does lose. Tech Chople Berry guarantees the win :)
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike 1v1 (Rain):
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 342-405 (100.8 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 306-363 (90.2 - 107%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Urshifu wins majority of the time.
Obvious threats like Kartana, Magnezone, Kyurem, Lele etc all lose. Melmetal I covered in the Howl calcs.
This thing is relatively good at winning 1v1’s I’d say, but its nothing that most other fast strong mons can’t do, maybe even better honestly. I still feel my comparison to melmetal holds true. They may beat different pokemon though, but that “beat 1 oppressive threat and die” playstyle still fits. Take that how you will.
Last 2 sets I want to cover. The actual anti hyper offence sets. Namely Webs and Screens. Hazard stack beats Zamazenta surprisingly well, as Spikes puts it in range of losing many 1v1’s. Now then, the anti screens Zamazenta.
Anti Screens:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 96 SpD / 128 Spe
Careful Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Psychic Fangs
- Metal Burst
So, yeah. We have a bulky Zamazenta that has psychic fangs to remove screens, and the bulk to tank setup moves and metal burst them back. Speed for strong pokemon like Lele, Kyurem, Hydreigon and Urshifu is kept so we can still beat them with faster CC’s and Bash’s.
Thanks to Psychic Fangs, we can completely rule out screens in our calcs, which is great. Now, note that this set is really really bad against remotely bulky teams, but even against those it can force a KO on a powerful breaker, so its not entirely useless.
So, Magearna with a Iron Defence, a Calm Mind, and a Weakness Policy all popped, AND max special attack just because. Do you survive?
+3 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes, yes you do.
And you metal burst it back.
No other calcs are really worth mentioning, his 1v1’s vs other offensive pokemon play out relatively the same way, he's just bulkier but weaker. The idea of removing screens from the equation and then being able to remove a pokemon like a super-setup Magearna is really great though.
Anti-Webs:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Crunch
Yeah, not much to go over here. Ada Zamazenta can 2hko any offensive mon for the most part, and thanks to sub he gets those 2 attacks off. Main webber in OU rn is Shuckle, who you can sub on as it sets webs. Might need to outplay encore, but the general idea is you take out shuckle and another mon with it since all webs mons are generally gonna be slower, then die/defog with another mon later and repeat the cycle with Zama.
One last wack set:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reversal
- Behemoth Bash
- Howl
- Agility
I tried this on screens, has the speed to outspeed +1 Phero after agility. Its wack lol but can be cool in HO mirror. Thats about it.
One final note, a set with 3 attacks and protect to scout choiced mons could be great on balance. Anyways;
In conclusion, just like a lot of other OU pokemon rn, Zamazenta can do alot, but not alot at once. Whether or not he should drop is up for debate, but I’ve laid out his strengths and weaknesses. I just don’t like people leaving it at their theory that it beats any and all offence like some god sweeper, it’s a trade and kill type of pokemon, that can also apply offensive pressure. If its stats/being a box legendary is peoples argument against it, I just want to remind you all we gave Kyurem-Black a chance in SM and it stayed, and another chance this gen.
Overall, I for one, am all for unbanning it, but maybe AFTER we’ve banned threats that should go and the meta is in a more stable place.
Ban Pheromosa and Magearna.
Random fun replays I had with Gomikyu lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228902553
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228904233
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228905426
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228906564
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228907850
Edit: It means the physical calcs are lower. This might change a few matchups vs Urshifu S Close Combat, Melmetal, Corviknight and a tad few others (calcs change for all physical attacks ofc but the 1v1's vs mons like Cinderace play out relatively the same)
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I was going to post an essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis but was ninja'd by another essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis. Oh well, here you go.
Zamazenta-Crowned in OU: An Analysis
Hey yall. I'm sure most of us are tired about hearing about Zamazenta-Crowned in this thread, which is fair. But I've also noticed that a lot of the posts about Zamazenta-C have been kind of... bad, I guess? Between misinformation, half-baked posts, and incorrect calcs, Zamazenta-C seemed to tank the quality of discussion in this thread. So I decided to make a only-slightly-partisan (and good) post on the matter, to inform the discussion a bit more. Consider this a sort of a sequel to my "Unban Zamazenta" post from pre-release.
Speaking objectively, if Zamazenta-C were allowed in OU, it would have a fairly bad matchup against many mons that already form the backbone of balance cores, and much of its counterplay overlaps with counterplay for other Fighting-types in the tier, like Urshifu and Pheromosa. It boasts incredible bulk and resilience to certain forms of chip damage that can be limiting to physically offensive Pokemon, but between its relative predictability and vulnerability to certain other forms of chip damage limits most of its best matchups to being against offense. Let's get a breakdown of its strengths and weaknesses:
Zamazenta-C's strengths:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Work Up
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
I think this would be the primary Zamazenta-C set in OU, more or less. Wild Charge would be the primary coverage option, since it covers Moltres, Toxapex, and Slowbro, along with other Water types. Other options like Psychic Fangs or Ice Fang are feasible, but miss out on many key targets. Also, despite what Showdown might tell you, Zamazenta-C cannot learn Iron Head. In game, Iron Head becomes Behemoth Bash when Zamazenta-C enters battle. Iron Head would have been a nice alternative over Behemoth Bash with higher PP and a flinch chance to sometimes win matchups it wouldn't be able to. Why Work Up over Howl? While it's true that Howl has more PP, Work Up has two advantages over Howl. First, it also boosts Special Attack, which boosts Moonblast. Moonblast is usable for being able to 2HKO Buzzwole at +1 with zero investment, and while it's otherwise a very suboptimal move to run, being able to always bluff having that move could be handy. The other reason is that if Zamazenta-C is hit by Throat Chop, it cannot use Howl. Pheromosa sometimes carries Throat Chop to revenge kill Spectrier consistently. The situation may arise where you need to pivot Zamazenta-C in on a CB Pheromosa Throat Chop, and if you do, there is no sense limiting your ability to set up. I also expect that It would run a Jolly nature primarily. An Adamant Zamazenta-C hits 355 Speed at max, which is slower than some key threats like Cinderace, Tornadus-T, and opposing Zamazenta-C, all of which would be able to revenge kill it after it has sustained some damage. While there is an argument for only speed-creeping Tornadus-T or Scarf Magearna (because in a 1v1 situation between two Zamazenta-C at full health, the slower one can sometimes win due to hitting after the faster one has taken a CC drop), I feel like more often then not, being faster than opposing Zamazenta-C is more useful.
So, how would one go about dealing with this set defensively? Well it so happens that there are many common OU mons that are capable of dealing with it already! There's no need to dredge up mons from UU or lower in order to counter Zamazenta-C.
Defensively checking Zamazenta-C:
Zapdos is a counter to Zamazenta-C. It resists both of its STAB moves and is neutral to Wild Charge, and Static is super punishing to a mon as reliant on contact moves as Zamazenta-C is. Although it can only 3HKO with uninvested Hurricane or Heat Wave, Zamazenta needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to guarantee a 2HKO with CC or Wild Charge, so it more than balances out.
Moltres also has a very positive matchup against Zamazenta-C, although compared to Zapdos, it takes a lot more from Wild Charge. However, it poses a lot more of a threat with its STAB, being able to 2HKO back with Flamethrower. Flame Body is also equally punishing. It's worth noting that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 in order to 2HKO with Wild Charge, as well, meaning Zamazenta-C needs to set up on the switch in order to win the 1v1. Even then, whenever Moltres Roosts up on Wild Charge, Zamazenta-C takes a lot of recoil damage and risks a burn. You'll see that this sort of thing is a trend in matchups where it is reliant on Wild Charge.
Defensive Landorus-T's matchup against Zamazenta-C is pretty commanding, actually. 248/156+ Landorus-T takes about 26% from -1 Behemoth Bash which is absolutely hilarious and absolutely disincentivizes Zamazenta-C from going for anything but Work Up. +0 Behemoth Bash can 3HKO Landorus-T, so it is possible for Zamazenta-C to win the 1v1 (since Landorus-T's uninvested Earthquake only 2HKO's about 30% of the time) but it depends on predicting the switch and going for Work Up, and what will likely occur is that Landorus-T will simply pivot out to something else to sponge the Behemoth Bash. It forces a lot of prediction on the Zamazenta-C user, and it comes at a cost. Being so reliant on Behemoth Bash in this matchup is a big flaw, since it only has 8 PP. If the Zamazenta-C wastes Behemoth Bash PP too callously, it might find itself getting walled by Clefable or something later in the game. In fact, something like WishPort Clefable + Landorus-T can effectively give Landorus-T the extra HP it needs to burn enough of those Behemoth Bashes that Clefable is unbothered. Overall, this is the biggest argument towards running Ice Fang on Zamazenta-C, but giving up any of its other moves opens up some large weaknesses.
Buzzwole is an excellent counter to Zamazenta-C. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to consistently 2HKO Buzzwole with Behemoth Bash. Buzzwole almost always can 3HKO back with Drain Punch, and it recovers health while doing so, too. Even if Zamazenta-C runs Play Rough or Psychic Fangs to hit Buzzwole super effectively, it just has so much bulk that it can't even 2HKO with these moves at +1. Buzzwole does not need to run Bulk Up, but if it does, it basically turns Zamazenta-C into setup fodder. Being reliant on Behemoth Bash to try and wear Buzzwole does on switch-ins is also bad for much of the same reasons discussed in the Landorus-T section, in that it has limited PP.
Slowbro can be great for pivoting in on Zamazenta-C, although it can't be called a counter. The HDB 252/252+ set is 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge, and Slowbro can't do a whole lot back with Scald, burn chance notwithstanding. If Slowbro can inflict status, it goes a long way towards limiting Zamazenta-C, but generally, the Slowbro player's plan of attack would be to switch in, Teleport out while taking a +1 Wild Charge, and bringing in some sort of offensive revenge killer that can force Zamazenta-C to switch out. Zamazenta-C takes a lot of Wild Charge recoil from attacking Slowbro as well, which can put it into revenge kill ranges from mons like Pheromosa or Ditto, so a savvy player generally will be hesitant to click Wild Charge so freely early in a game, as well. Overall, it can be sufficient to limit Zamazenta-C while not being a super hard counter.
Against a healthy 252/252+ Toxapex without Black Sludge, a +1 Wild Charge into a neutral Wild Charge has only about a 6% chance of 2HKOing, in that there's only a 6% chance that both rolls will be high enough to 2HKO, and in doing so, Zamazenta-C will take about 30% recoil per attack if the Toxapex has Rocky Helmet. This incentivizes Toxapex to go for occasional double Recovers instead of using Recover and Haze alternatingly to rack up more chip damage on Zamazenta-C. The Zamazenta-C player can try and play around this, but ultimately, even if they play perfectly, they are still going to end up taking a lot of damage in recoil.
+1 Close Combat only does about 49%, and every time you go for it, it softens you up for the Earthquake retaliation. However, the Hippowdon player may be more inclined just to Whirlwind the Zamazenta-C out, since Earthquake is only a 3HKO before using any CCs. It's sort of a similar matchup to Hippowdon's matchup against Bulk Up Urshifu, you need to decide whether risking a Whirlwind into something you can't heal up on is worth it. All things considered this matchup is still fairly positive for Hippowdon though.
Defensive Garchomp is really punishing if you can pivot in on an attack. With a lot of defense investment, it takes only like 35% from +0 Behemoth Bash, meaning it does almost as much back as it takes. Unless Zamazenta-C is running Ice Fang, it will be hard pressed to win against Garchomp before collapsing from recoil, and even if it does run Ice Fang, it will sustain enough damage that it will be easy enough to pick off afterwards.
One of those defensive mons you see on stall, even though it has fallen off since the ban of Zygarde. Naturally, Zamazenta-C can't break through Quagsire barring multiple lucky CC crits. Quagsire can cut through its Dauntless Shield defense boost and 3HKO back with Earthquake.
Okay, so, it seems like there is plenty of defensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C, and that nearly every good defensive mon in the tier can handle it to some extent (hyperbole). That's good. But how about checking Zamazenta-C offensively? Well that's where it gets a bit dicey. As mentioned, Zamazenta-C's insane bulk makes it very resistant to revenge killing. That said, it also has some mediocre matchups against key offensive mons. Take a look:
Offensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C:
Pheromosa is one of the most common offensive threats in OU, currently, and it's certainly capable of revenge killing Zamazenta-C, depending on set. Choice Band Jolly Close Combat, however, isn't a guaranteed OHKO against Zamazenta-C, only KOing 43.8% of the time. Forcing any sort of chip damage, be it U-turn chip, hazard damage, or forcing a Wild Charge improves those chances though. HDB variants of Pheromosa can't revenge kill nearly as well, especially since U-turn does hardly anything. However, special versions of Pheromosa fare much better, with LO Focus Blast being a guaranteed OHKO. Pheromosa is certainly one of the most common offensive mons that can revenge Zamazenta-C, but even it faces some challenges.
Scarf Landorus-T can handle Zamazenta-C fairly consistently. It only takes about 40% from -1 Behemoth Bash, and if you pivot in on CC or Wild Charge, even better. Earthquake 2HKOs back, of course, but Zamazenta-C takes like nothing from U-turn as previously stated, so predict well lest your opponent be a maverick and decide to switch in. Ice Fang can 2HKO Landorus-T, so be wary of that, but as mentioned before, it seems like a difficult move to justify running.
Spectrier isn't really the best check, but it's so common that I need to mention it here. Being able to outspeed and inflict a burn can be a huge limiting factor to Zamazenta-C. After it is burned, Spectrier will often be forced out, since it still takes over half from burned +1 Behemoth Bash, but if you have something that can force Zamazenta-C out, you have basically made it useless for much of the match. Specs Shadow Ball, and 130 BP Hex are both capable of 2HKOing, so despite not being a check, Spectrier can win in a 1v1 situation.
This mon is heavily overshadowed by Spectrier currently. Despite its bad bulk, it resists Behemoth Bash and Close Combat so you can pivot it in if you're feeling ballsy, and it's capable of OHKOing with Scarf Overheat.
Very bulky, and with no bulk investment at all it isn't even 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge. The main issue is, Choiced and AoA variants get forced out after going for an attack since it always takes a few hits to bring down Zamazenta-C. Variants with any combination of max HP, King's Shield, and Leftovers do much better since it forces more prediction.
Most effective when paired with a defensive switch-in that can maintain momentum, like Slowbro or Landorus-T. Its Specs Volt Switch does a bit over half, meaning you can just go for it twice generally. Thunderbolt does a hefty chunk as well, but generally just Volt Switching and bringing in something that can take a CC works fine.
Tapu Koko is faster than Zamazenta-C and it can definitely work to chip it down if it has Volt Switch as well. Unlike Regieleki, it is weaker, and the Electric Terrain it provides can power up Zamazenta-C's Wild Charge, meaning that if they predict incoming Slowbro or something it can be more punishing.
Ditto actually gets an additional Dauntless Shield boost when it copies Zamazenta-C. However, it is reliant on Close Combat to revenge kill which tanks its defenses. A +1 CC from Ditto usually doesn't kill a +1 Zamazenta-C, but a +1 CC from Zamazenta-C kills a +1 Ditto over half of the time, so Ditto isn't completely consistent unless you get a bit of chip damage first.
Scarf Heatran is something you see occasionally, and it handily OHKOs Zamazenta-C with Eruption.
These scarfers can't beat it 1v1 cause they take a lot of damage back, but they are capable of revenging a weakened Zamazenta-C.
Volcarona can withstand any attack at +1 and set up, then OHKO back with Flamethrower. The burn chance from Flame Body is nice too.
It can eat up +1 Close Combat and cook it with Overheat thanks to the Special Defense drop.
Magearna is not a check, but Specs Magearna can live +1 Close Combat and OHKO back (usually) with Specs Focus Blast. Those versions with Iron Defense can usually win in 1v1s, if Zamazenta-C doesn't already have a +1.
Far from the most common mon, but it has a great matchup, being resistant to both STABs. However, one V-Create usually isn't enough to get the job done, and you'll probably need to switch out cause of the Defense drops, and Speed drop if you're running Scarf.
Dragapult is pretty weak, and Specs Dragapult needs to click Flamethrower in order to always 2HKO, and it generally doesn't live a +1 Behemoth Bash, but it can win a 1v1 if Zamazenta-C is not set up so there's that.
Pretty poor matchup since it can't do much back, even with Body Press, but it's at least bulky enough that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 to 2HKO it. Pressure can also help burn PP from key moves if you predict right.
This matchup is a bit better, since you can use Whirlwind to prevent yourself from being setup fodder. Body Press actually does a bit more this time, being able to potentially 3HKO.
With Roost and Multiscale, it can really limit the damage it takes. It can just DD once so it's faster, then stall with Roost until Zamazenta-C does something besides attacking. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +2 to do over half to a Dragonite with no bulk investment and an intact Multiscale, and a +1 Dragonite generally 2HKOs with Earthquake, so this matchup is generally winnable by Dragonite.
Weather mons are okay at taking out a weakened Zamazenta-C too. Venusaur's LO Weather Ball in Sun does the most and can kill with very little chip damage. Barraskewda needs to chip down with Flip Turn first before committing to Close Combat, and since Zamazenta-C is so reliant on Wild Charge to hit Pelipper, Rain can play prediction games if they have a ground type. Excadrill doesn't do as great unfortunately, so you'll need some other means of forcing damage onto Zamazenta-C.
Who would make good partners for Zamazenta-C?
Grassy Terrain is nice, and makes up for Zamazenta's complete lack of recovery. Grassy Terrain weakening Earthquake also ameliorates the Landorus-T matchup a lot.
Tapu Koko would be great for threatening those bulky Waters that Zamazenta-C can't beat. It also provides Electric Terrain, which powers up its Wild Charge, letting it pose more of a threat.
It appreciates the Misty Terrain, which lets it click buttons freely against stuff like Moltres with less fear. Although it's not weak to hazards, you want to avoid any chip damage you can when using Zamazenta-C, so Defog is useful too.
Generally a good switch-in to Pheromosa, and if you have WishPort, you can provide Zamazenta-C with a lot more longevity.
Although it's less of a breaker in comparison to Urshifu, for instance, it still appreciates Future Sight support which discourages Buzzwole and Toxapex from coming in. It doesn't help much against opposing Slowbro though.
Spectrier's a great offensive partner for Zamazenta-C for much of the same reasons it's a good partner for Urshifu. They have some defensive synergy, with Zamazenta-C being able to pivot in on Dark moves and Spectrier dissuading Fighting attacks. Zamazenta-C being unfazed by Knock Off is great for pivoting in on them.
How would Zamazenta-C affect the meta?
Besides that I don't think Zamazenta-C would too fundamentally change the fabric of the metagame. I don't think it would lead to a complete death of offense as a playstyle, since Zamazenta-C seems very matchup-based and wont find itself on every team.
Conclusion
So what do you think? Is Zamazenta-C's offense matchup too much, or would the fact that it fumbles so hard against defensive mons balance it out? Either way, I hope my post helps inform your viewpoint :)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 70% chance to 3HKO (9.1 - 10.8% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 105-124 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (11.8 - 14% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 230-272 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (17.6 - 20.9% recoil damage)
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 138-163 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 144-170 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 118-141 (36.9 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 99-117 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 104-126 (32 - 38.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO (12.4 - 15% recovered)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.3 - 12.1% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (15.3 - 18.1% recoil damage)
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 63-75 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.1 - 9.6% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.1 - 14.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 39-46 (12 - 14.1%) -- possible 8HKO (lol)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-138 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 153-180 (36.4 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 132-156 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 324-384 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (118.4 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (47.3 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 344-408 (105.8 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 164-193 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.6 - 14.8% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.4 - 10% recoil damage)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 201-237 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 156-184 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Ditto Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hey yall. I'm sure most of us are tired about hearing about Zamazenta-Crowned in this thread, which is fair. But I've also noticed that a lot of the posts about Zamazenta-C have been kind of... bad, I guess? Between misinformation, half-baked posts, and incorrect calcs, Zamazenta-C seemed to tank the quality of discussion in this thread. So I decided to make a only-slightly-partisan (and good) post on the matter, to inform the discussion a bit more. Consider this a sort of a sequel to my "Unban Zamazenta" post from pre-release.
Speaking objectively, if Zamazenta-C were allowed in OU, it would have a fairly bad matchup against many mons that already form the backbone of balance cores, and much of its counterplay overlaps with counterplay for other Fighting-types in the tier, like Urshifu and Pheromosa. It boasts incredible bulk and resilience to certain forms of chip damage that can be limiting to physically offensive Pokemon, but between its relative predictability and vulnerability to certain other forms of chip damage limits most of its best matchups to being against offense. Let's get a breakdown of its strengths and weaknesses:
Zamazenta-C's strengths:
- Great speed tier lets it be an effective offensive mon.
- It has great bulk by anyone's standards, but for an offensive mon, it's almost incomprehensibly bulky, especially on the physical side. This gives it many setup opportunities and makes it exceedingly difficult to revenge kill.
- Steel / Fighting is kinda nice defensively; and it's also resistant to Stealth Rock, and immune to sandstorm and Toxic, meaning it can be difficult to chip down with hazards unless you're running Spikes.
- Being immune to item switching and item removal gives it a fairly unique niche, if you can predict a Trick or Knock Off.
- It's not exceptionally strong, and as such, is very reliant on boosting its Attack with Work Up in order to pose a threat to defensive cores.
- Steel / Fighting as a STAB combo is walled by many prominent defensive mons.
- Although its typing makes it resistant to certain forms of chip damage, it's very vulnerable to other forms of chip damage compounded by its inability to hold Leftovers; mainly, its reliance on Wild Charge and vulnerability to Rocky Helmet can wear it down very quickly.
- To elaborate on this, being completely reliant on contact moves is a liability, since abilities and items that discourage contact moves are common in OU right now.
- Relatively small movepool, occupied item slot, and lack of tech like Toxic or Rock coverage make it fairly predictable.
- It is reliant on low PP moves like Close Combat and Behemoth Bash which can let it down over longer games.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Work Up
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
I think this would be the primary Zamazenta-C set in OU, more or less. Wild Charge would be the primary coverage option, since it covers Moltres, Toxapex, and Slowbro, along with other Water types. Other options like Psychic Fangs or Ice Fang are feasible, but miss out on many key targets. Also, despite what Showdown might tell you, Zamazenta-C cannot learn Iron Head. In game, Iron Head becomes Behemoth Bash when Zamazenta-C enters battle. Iron Head would have been a nice alternative over Behemoth Bash with higher PP and a flinch chance to sometimes win matchups it wouldn't be able to. Why Work Up over Howl? While it's true that Howl has more PP, Work Up has two advantages over Howl. First, it also boosts Special Attack, which boosts Moonblast. Moonblast is usable for being able to 2HKO Buzzwole at +1 with zero investment, and while it's otherwise a very suboptimal move to run, being able to always bluff having that move could be handy. The other reason is that if Zamazenta-C is hit by Throat Chop, it cannot use Howl. Pheromosa sometimes carries Throat Chop to revenge kill Spectrier consistently. The situation may arise where you need to pivot Zamazenta-C in on a CB Pheromosa Throat Chop, and if you do, there is no sense limiting your ability to set up. I also expect that It would run a Jolly nature primarily. An Adamant Zamazenta-C hits 355 Speed at max, which is slower than some key threats like Cinderace, Tornadus-T, and opposing Zamazenta-C, all of which would be able to revenge kill it after it has sustained some damage. While there is an argument for only speed-creeping Tornadus-T or Scarf Magearna (because in a 1v1 situation between two Zamazenta-C at full health, the slower one can sometimes win due to hitting after the faster one has taken a CC drop), I feel like more often then not, being faster than opposing Zamazenta-C is more useful.
So, how would one go about dealing with this set defensively? Well it so happens that there are many common OU mons that are capable of dealing with it already! There's no need to dredge up mons from UU or lower in order to counter Zamazenta-C.
Defensively checking Zamazenta-C:
Zapdos is a counter to Zamazenta-C. It resists both of its STAB moves and is neutral to Wild Charge, and Static is super punishing to a mon as reliant on contact moves as Zamazenta-C is. Although it can only 3HKO with uninvested Hurricane or Heat Wave, Zamazenta needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to guarantee a 2HKO with CC or Wild Charge, so it more than balances out.
Moltres also has a very positive matchup against Zamazenta-C, although compared to Zapdos, it takes a lot more from Wild Charge. However, it poses a lot more of a threat with its STAB, being able to 2HKO back with Flamethrower. Flame Body is also equally punishing. It's worth noting that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 in order to 2HKO with Wild Charge, as well, meaning Zamazenta-C needs to set up on the switch in order to win the 1v1. Even then, whenever Moltres Roosts up on Wild Charge, Zamazenta-C takes a lot of recoil damage and risks a burn. You'll see that this sort of thing is a trend in matchups where it is reliant on Wild Charge.
Defensive Landorus-T's matchup against Zamazenta-C is pretty commanding, actually. 248/156+ Landorus-T takes about 26% from -1 Behemoth Bash which is absolutely hilarious and absolutely disincentivizes Zamazenta-C from going for anything but Work Up. +0 Behemoth Bash can 3HKO Landorus-T, so it is possible for Zamazenta-C to win the 1v1 (since Landorus-T's uninvested Earthquake only 2HKO's about 30% of the time) but it depends on predicting the switch and going for Work Up, and what will likely occur is that Landorus-T will simply pivot out to something else to sponge the Behemoth Bash. It forces a lot of prediction on the Zamazenta-C user, and it comes at a cost. Being so reliant on Behemoth Bash in this matchup is a big flaw, since it only has 8 PP. If the Zamazenta-C wastes Behemoth Bash PP too callously, it might find itself getting walled by Clefable or something later in the game. In fact, something like WishPort Clefable + Landorus-T can effectively give Landorus-T the extra HP it needs to burn enough of those Behemoth Bashes that Clefable is unbothered. Overall, this is the biggest argument towards running Ice Fang on Zamazenta-C, but giving up any of its other moves opens up some large weaknesses.
Buzzwole is an excellent counter to Zamazenta-C. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to consistently 2HKO Buzzwole with Behemoth Bash. Buzzwole almost always can 3HKO back with Drain Punch, and it recovers health while doing so, too. Even if Zamazenta-C runs Play Rough or Psychic Fangs to hit Buzzwole super effectively, it just has so much bulk that it can't even 2HKO with these moves at +1. Buzzwole does not need to run Bulk Up, but if it does, it basically turns Zamazenta-C into setup fodder. Being reliant on Behemoth Bash to try and wear Buzzwole does on switch-ins is also bad for much of the same reasons discussed in the Landorus-T section, in that it has limited PP.
Slowbro can be great for pivoting in on Zamazenta-C, although it can't be called a counter. The HDB 252/252+ set is 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge, and Slowbro can't do a whole lot back with Scald, burn chance notwithstanding. If Slowbro can inflict status, it goes a long way towards limiting Zamazenta-C, but generally, the Slowbro player's plan of attack would be to switch in, Teleport out while taking a +1 Wild Charge, and bringing in some sort of offensive revenge killer that can force Zamazenta-C to switch out. Zamazenta-C takes a lot of Wild Charge recoil from attacking Slowbro as well, which can put it into revenge kill ranges from mons like Pheromosa or Ditto, so a savvy player generally will be hesitant to click Wild Charge so freely early in a game, as well. Overall, it can be sufficient to limit Zamazenta-C while not being a super hard counter.
Against a healthy 252/252+ Toxapex without Black Sludge, a +1 Wild Charge into a neutral Wild Charge has only about a 6% chance of 2HKOing, in that there's only a 6% chance that both rolls will be high enough to 2HKO, and in doing so, Zamazenta-C will take about 30% recoil per attack if the Toxapex has Rocky Helmet. This incentivizes Toxapex to go for occasional double Recovers instead of using Recover and Haze alternatingly to rack up more chip damage on Zamazenta-C. The Zamazenta-C player can try and play around this, but ultimately, even if they play perfectly, they are still going to end up taking a lot of damage in recoil.
+1 Close Combat only does about 49%, and every time you go for it, it softens you up for the Earthquake retaliation. However, the Hippowdon player may be more inclined just to Whirlwind the Zamazenta-C out, since Earthquake is only a 3HKO before using any CCs. It's sort of a similar matchup to Hippowdon's matchup against Bulk Up Urshifu, you need to decide whether risking a Whirlwind into something you can't heal up on is worth it. All things considered this matchup is still fairly positive for Hippowdon though.
Defensive Garchomp is really punishing if you can pivot in on an attack. With a lot of defense investment, it takes only like 35% from +0 Behemoth Bash, meaning it does almost as much back as it takes. Unless Zamazenta-C is running Ice Fang, it will be hard pressed to win against Garchomp before collapsing from recoil, and even if it does run Ice Fang, it will sustain enough damage that it will be easy enough to pick off afterwards.
One of those defensive mons you see on stall, even though it has fallen off since the ban of Zygarde. Naturally, Zamazenta-C can't break through Quagsire barring multiple lucky CC crits. Quagsire can cut through its Dauntless Shield defense boost and 3HKO back with Earthquake.
Okay, so, it seems like there is plenty of defensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C, and that nearly every good defensive mon in the tier can handle it to some extent (hyperbole). That's good. But how about checking Zamazenta-C offensively? Well that's where it gets a bit dicey. As mentioned, Zamazenta-C's insane bulk makes it very resistant to revenge killing. That said, it also has some mediocre matchups against key offensive mons. Take a look:
Offensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C:
Pheromosa is one of the most common offensive threats in OU, currently, and it's certainly capable of revenge killing Zamazenta-C, depending on set. Choice Band Jolly Close Combat, however, isn't a guaranteed OHKO against Zamazenta-C, only KOing 43.8% of the time. Forcing any sort of chip damage, be it U-turn chip, hazard damage, or forcing a Wild Charge improves those chances though. HDB variants of Pheromosa can't revenge kill nearly as well, especially since U-turn does hardly anything. However, special versions of Pheromosa fare much better, with LO Focus Blast being a guaranteed OHKO. Pheromosa is certainly one of the most common offensive mons that can revenge Zamazenta-C, but even it faces some challenges.
Scarf Landorus-T can handle Zamazenta-C fairly consistently. It only takes about 40% from -1 Behemoth Bash, and if you pivot in on CC or Wild Charge, even better. Earthquake 2HKOs back, of course, but Zamazenta-C takes like nothing from U-turn as previously stated, so predict well lest your opponent be a maverick and decide to switch in. Ice Fang can 2HKO Landorus-T, so be wary of that, but as mentioned before, it seems like a difficult move to justify running.
Spectrier isn't really the best check, but it's so common that I need to mention it here. Being able to outspeed and inflict a burn can be a huge limiting factor to Zamazenta-C. After it is burned, Spectrier will often be forced out, since it still takes over half from burned +1 Behemoth Bash, but if you have something that can force Zamazenta-C out, you have basically made it useless for much of the match. Specs Shadow Ball, and 130 BP Hex are both capable of 2HKOing, so despite not being a check, Spectrier can win in a 1v1 situation.
This mon is heavily overshadowed by Spectrier currently. Despite its bad bulk, it resists Behemoth Bash and Close Combat so you can pivot it in if you're feeling ballsy, and it's capable of OHKOing with Scarf Overheat.
Very bulky, and with no bulk investment at all it isn't even 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge. The main issue is, Choiced and AoA variants get forced out after going for an attack since it always takes a few hits to bring down Zamazenta-C. Variants with any combination of max HP, King's Shield, and Leftovers do much better since it forces more prediction.
Most effective when paired with a defensive switch-in that can maintain momentum, like Slowbro or Landorus-T. Its Specs Volt Switch does a bit over half, meaning you can just go for it twice generally. Thunderbolt does a hefty chunk as well, but generally just Volt Switching and bringing in something that can take a CC works fine.
Tapu Koko is faster than Zamazenta-C and it can definitely work to chip it down if it has Volt Switch as well. Unlike Regieleki, it is weaker, and the Electric Terrain it provides can power up Zamazenta-C's Wild Charge, meaning that if they predict incoming Slowbro or something it can be more punishing.
Ditto actually gets an additional Dauntless Shield boost when it copies Zamazenta-C. However, it is reliant on Close Combat to revenge kill which tanks its defenses. A +1 CC from Ditto usually doesn't kill a +1 Zamazenta-C, but a +1 CC from Zamazenta-C kills a +1 Ditto over half of the time, so Ditto isn't completely consistent unless you get a bit of chip damage first.
Scarf Heatran is something you see occasionally, and it handily OHKOs Zamazenta-C with Eruption.
These scarfers can't beat it 1v1 cause they take a lot of damage back, but they are capable of revenging a weakened Zamazenta-C.
Volcarona can withstand any attack at +1 and set up, then OHKO back with Flamethrower. The burn chance from Flame Body is nice too.
It can eat up +1 Close Combat and cook it with Overheat thanks to the Special Defense drop.
Magearna is not a check, but Specs Magearna can live +1 Close Combat and OHKO back (usually) with Specs Focus Blast. Those versions with Iron Defense can usually win in 1v1s, if Zamazenta-C doesn't already have a +1.
Far from the most common mon, but it has a great matchup, being resistant to both STABs. However, one V-Create usually isn't enough to get the job done, and you'll probably need to switch out cause of the Defense drops, and Speed drop if you're running Scarf.
Dragapult is pretty weak, and Specs Dragapult needs to click Flamethrower in order to always 2HKO, and it generally doesn't live a +1 Behemoth Bash, but it can win a 1v1 if Zamazenta-C is not set up so there's that.
Pretty poor matchup since it can't do much back, even with Body Press, but it's at least bulky enough that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 to 2HKO it. Pressure can also help burn PP from key moves if you predict right.
This matchup is a bit better, since you can use Whirlwind to prevent yourself from being setup fodder. Body Press actually does a bit more this time, being able to potentially 3HKO.
With Roost and Multiscale, it can really limit the damage it takes. It can just DD once so it's faster, then stall with Roost until Zamazenta-C does something besides attacking. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +2 to do over half to a Dragonite with no bulk investment and an intact Multiscale, and a +1 Dragonite generally 2HKOs with Earthquake, so this matchup is generally winnable by Dragonite.
Weather mons are okay at taking out a weakened Zamazenta-C too. Venusaur's LO Weather Ball in Sun does the most and can kill with very little chip damage. Barraskewda needs to chip down with Flip Turn first before committing to Close Combat, and since Zamazenta-C is so reliant on Wild Charge to hit Pelipper, Rain can play prediction games if they have a ground type. Excadrill doesn't do as great unfortunately, so you'll need some other means of forcing damage onto Zamazenta-C.
Who would make good partners for Zamazenta-C?
Grassy Terrain is nice, and makes up for Zamazenta's complete lack of recovery. Grassy Terrain weakening Earthquake also ameliorates the Landorus-T matchup a lot.
Tapu Koko would be great for threatening those bulky Waters that Zamazenta-C can't beat. It also provides Electric Terrain, which powers up its Wild Charge, letting it pose more of a threat.
It appreciates the Misty Terrain, which lets it click buttons freely against stuff like Moltres with less fear. Although it's not weak to hazards, you want to avoid any chip damage you can when using Zamazenta-C, so Defog is useful too.
Generally a good switch-in to Pheromosa, and if you have WishPort, you can provide Zamazenta-C with a lot more longevity.
Although it's less of a breaker in comparison to Urshifu, for instance, it still appreciates Future Sight support which discourages Buzzwole and Toxapex from coming in. It doesn't help much against opposing Slowbro though.
Spectrier's a great offensive partner for Zamazenta-C for much of the same reasons it's a good partner for Urshifu. They have some defensive synergy, with Zamazenta-C being able to pivot in on Dark moves and Spectrier dissuading Fighting attacks. Zamazenta-C being unfazed by Knock Off is great for pivoting in on them.
How would Zamazenta-C affect the meta?
- Slight depreciation in Hyper Offense
- More random anti-steel tech, less random Knock Off
- More defensive Lando-T
Besides that I don't think Zamazenta-C would too fundamentally change the fabric of the metagame. I don't think it would lead to a complete death of offense as a playstyle, since Zamazenta-C seems very matchup-based and wont find itself on every team.
Conclusion
So what do you think? Is Zamazenta-C's offense matchup too much, or would the fact that it fumbles so hard against defensive mons balance it out? Either way, I hope my post helps inform your viewpoint :)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 70% chance to 3HKO (9.1 - 10.8% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 105-124 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (11.8 - 14% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 230-272 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (17.6 - 20.9% recoil damage)
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 138-163 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 144-170 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 118-141 (36.9 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 99-117 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 104-126 (32 - 38.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO (12.4 - 15% recovered)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.3 - 12.1% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (15.3 - 18.1% recoil damage)
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 63-75 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.1 - 9.6% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.1 - 14.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 39-46 (12 - 14.1%) -- possible 8HKO (lol)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-138 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 153-180 (36.4 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 132-156 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 324-384 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (118.4 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (47.3 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 344-408 (105.8 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 164-193 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.6 - 14.8% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.4 - 10% recoil damage)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 201-237 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 156-184 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Ditto Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This set is actually worse than you think. Metal Burst doesn't have decreased priority like Counter or Mirror Coat, meaning that it's completely worthless against anything slower, like the Magearna you used as an example. I really don't think that set is viable at all. Besides that, I really like your post, and the replays are interesting, so good stuff mate.
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So, I haven't played too much of this meta, but I've been using this Krookodile set on some of my teams, and it does pretty well. It's STAB is pretty good right now in this meta from what I've seen.
Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Fire Fang /Aerial Ace
- Stone Edge
Aerial ace or fire fang can be switched around if you want depending on your team. If you run Aerial Ace, you are walled by Ferrothorn, and if you run fire fang, you are walled by Buzzwole. One of my favorite revenge killers this meta because of a solid STAB(like said above) and good speed tier to use with scarf and Adamant. Intimidate is nice to have for Cinderace or you could run moxie to snowball and clean late game. Being a dark time also helps a ton against Spectrier.
+1 252 SpA Spell Tag Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 276-324 (83.3 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk burned Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
nice
Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Fire Fang /Aerial Ace
- Stone Edge
Aerial ace or fire fang can be switched around if you want depending on your team. If you run Aerial Ace, you are walled by Ferrothorn, and if you run fire fang, you are walled by Buzzwole. One of my favorite revenge killers this meta because of a solid STAB(like said above) and good speed tier to use with scarf and Adamant. Intimidate is nice to have for Cinderace or you could run moxie to snowball and clean late game. Being a dark time also helps a ton against Spectrier.
+1 252 SpA Spell Tag Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 276-324 (83.3 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk burned Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
nice
Yeah, when you think about it, the first 2 mons banned were genesect, who was banned in part because of having a bunch of good sets, each with different checks, and naganadel, who was banned in part for having a snowballing ability. Pheromosa has both of these things. Like genesect, it forces you to guess which set it's running, and if you guess wrong it most likely gets a kill, gets a boost then fucks up your whole team.
Not to pick on ya, but I'd rather run Howl over Work Up simply because it achieves the same purpose BUT has more PP, just for the super super super ultra mega niche situation in which you need that extra PP. It's extremely ridiculously unlikely but it can theoretically happen.I was going to post an essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis but was ninja'd by another essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis. Oh well, here you go.
Zamazenta-Crowned in OU: An Analysis
Hey yall. I'm sure most of us are tired about hearing about Zamazenta-Crowned in this thread, which is fair. But I've also noticed that a lot of the posts about Zamazenta-C have been kind of... bad, I guess? Between misinformation, half-baked posts, and incorrect calcs, Zamazenta-C seemed to tank the quality of discussion in this thread. So I decided to make a only-slightly-partisan (and good) post on the matter, to inform the discussion a bit more. Consider this a sort of a sequel to my "Unban Zamazenta" post from pre-release.
Speaking objectively, if Zamazenta-C were allowed in OU, it would have a fairly bad matchup against many mons that already form the backbone of balance cores, and much of its counterplay overlaps with counterplay for other Fighting-types in the tier, like Urshifu and Pheromosa. It boasts incredible bulk and resilience to certain forms of chip damage that can be limiting to physically offensive Pokemon, but between its relative predictability and vulnerability to certain other forms of chip damage limits most of its best matchups to being against offense. Let's get a breakdown of its strengths and weaknesses:
Zamazenta-C's strengths:
Zamazenta-C's flaws:
- Great speed tier lets it be an effective offensive mon.
- It has great bulk by anyone's standards, but for an offensive mon, it's almost incomprehensibly bulky, especially on the physical side. This gives it many setup opportunities and makes it exceedingly difficult to revenge kill.
- Steel / Fighting is kinda nice defensively; and it's also resistant to Stealth Rock, and immune to sandstorm and Toxic, meaning it can be difficult to chip down with hazards unless you're running Spikes.
- Being immune to item switching and item removal gives it a fairly unique niche, if you can predict a Trick or Knock Off.
So with all that considered, I think there would be one primary set for Zamazenta-C, were it allowed in OU. There might end up being some variants like Agility and some occasional RestTalk action, but those variants compound Zamazenta-C's primary shortcomings, being its inability to pose a threat to balance cores. Therefore, the following set would likely end up the main set worth using:
- It's not exceptionally strong, and as such, is very reliant on boosting its Attack with Work Up in order to pose a threat to defensive cores.
- Steel / Fighting as a STAB combo is walled by many prominent defensive mons.
- Although its typing makes it resistant to certain forms of chip damage, it's very vulnerable to other forms of chip damage compounded by its inability to hold Leftovers; mainly, its reliance on Wild Charge and vulnerability to Rocky Helmet can wear it down very quickly.
- To elaborate on this, being completely reliant on contact moves is a liability, since abilities and items that discourage contact moves are common in OU right now.
- Relatively small movepool, occupied item slot, and lack of tech like Toxic or Rock coverage make it fairly predictable.
- It is reliant on low PP moves like Close Combat and Behemoth Bash which can let it down over longer games.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Work Up
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
I think this would be the primary Zamazenta-C set in OU, more or less. Wild Charge would be the primary coverage option, since it covers Moltres, Toxapex, and Slowbro, along with other Water types. Other options like Psychic Fangs or Ice Fang are feasible, but miss out on many key targets. Also, despite what Showdown might tell you, Zamazenta-C cannot learn Iron Head. In game, Iron Head becomes Behemoth Bash when Zamazenta-C enters battle. Iron Head would have been a nice alternative over Behemoth Bash with higher PP and a flinch chance to sometimes win matchups it wouldn't be able to. Why Work Up over Howl? While it's true that Howl has more PP, Work Up has two advantages over Howl. First, it also boosts Special Attack, which boosts Moonblast. Moonblast is usable for being able to 2HKO Buzzwole at +1 with zero investment, and while it's otherwise a very suboptimal move to run, being able to always bluff having that move could be handy. The other reason is that if Zamazenta-C is hit by Throat Chop, it cannot use Howl. Pheromosa sometimes carries Throat Chop to revenge kill Spectrier consistently. The situation may arise where you need to pivot Zamazenta-C in on a CB Pheromosa Throat Chop, and if you do, there is no sense limiting your ability to set up. I also expect that It would run a Jolly nature primarily. An Adamant Zamazenta-C hits 355 Speed at max, which is slower than some key threats like Cinderace, Tornadus-T, and opposing Zamazenta-C, all of which would be able to revenge kill it after it has sustained some damage.
So, how would one go about dealing with this set defensively? Well it so happens that there are many common OU mons that are capable of dealing with it already! There's no need to dredge up mons from UU or lower in order to counter Zamazenta-C.
Defensively checking Zamazenta-C:
Zapdos is a counter to Zamazenta-C. It resists both of its STAB moves and is neutral to Wild Charge, and Static is super punishing to a mon as reliant on contact moves as Zamazenta-C is. Although it can only 3HKO with uninvested Hurricane or Heat Wave, Zamazenta needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to guarantee a 2HKO with CC or Wild Charge, so it more than balances out.
Moltres also has a very positive matchup against Zamazenta-C, although compared to Zapdos, it takes a lot more from Wild Charge. However, it poses a lot more of a threat with its STAB, being able to 2HKO back with Flamethrower. Flame Body is also equally punishing. It's worth noting that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 in order to 2HKO with Wild Charge, as well, meaning Zamazenta-C needs to set up on the switch in order to win the 1v1. Even then, whenever Moltres Roosts up on Wild Charge, Zamazenta-C takes a lot of recoil damage and risks a burn. You'll see that this sort of thing is a trend in matchups where it is reliant on Wild Charge.
Defensive Landorus-T's matchup against Zamazenta-C is pretty commanding, actually. 248/156+ Landorus-T takes about 26% from -1 Behemoth Bash which is absolutely hilarious and absolutely disincentivizes Zamazenta-C from going for anything but Work Up. +0 Behemoth Bash can 3HKO Landorus-T, so it is possible for Zamazenta-C to win the 1v1 (since Landorus-T's uninvested Earthquake only 2HKO's about 30% of the time) but it depends on predicting the switch and going for Work Up, and what will likely occur is that Landorus-T will simply pivot out to something else to sponge the Behemoth Bash. It forces a lot of prediction on the Zamazenta-C user, and it comes at a cost. Being so reliant on Behemoth Bash in this matchup is a big flaw, since it only has 8 PP. If the Zamazenta-C wastes Behemoth Bash PP too callously, it might find itself getting walled by Clefable or something later in the game. In fact, something like WishPort Clefable + Landorus-T can effectively give Landorus-T the extra HP it needs to burn enough of those Behemoth Bashes that Clefable is unbothered. Overall, this is the biggest argument towards running Ice Fang on Zamazenta-C, but giving up any of its other moves opens up some large weaknesses.
Buzzwole is an excellent counter to Zamazenta-C. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to consistently 2HKO Buzzwole with Behemoth Bash. Buzzwole almost always can 3HKO back with Drain Punch, and it recovers health while doing so, too. Even if Zamazenta-C runs Play Rough or Psychic Fangs to hit Buzzwole super effectively, it just has so much bulk that it can't even 2HKO with these moves at +1. Buzzwole does not need to run Bulk Up, but if it does, it basically turns Zamazenta-C into setup fodder. Being reliant on Behemoth Bash to try and wear Buzzwole does on switch-ins is also bad for much of the same reasons discussed in the Landorus-T section, in that it has limited PP.
Slowbro can be great for pivoting in on Zamazenta-C, although it can't be called a counter. The HDB 252/252+ set is 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge, and Slowbro can't do a whole lot back with Scald, burn chance notwithstanding. If Slowbro can inflict status, it goes a long way towards limiting Zamazenta-C, but generally, the Slowbro player's plan of attack would be to switch in, Teleport out while taking a +1 Wild Charge, and bringing in some sort of offensive revenge killer that can force Zamazenta-C to switch out. Zamazenta-C takes a lot of Wild Charge recoil from attacking Slowbro as well, which can put it into revenge kill ranges from mons like Pheromosa or Ditto, so a savvy player generally will be hesitant to click Wild Charge so freely early in a game, as well. Overall, it can be sufficient to limit Zamazenta-C while not being a super hard counter.
Against a healthy 252/252+ Toxapex without Black Sludge, a +1 Wild Charge into a neutral Wild Charge has only about a 6% chance of 2HKOing, in that there's only a 6% chance that both rolls will be high enough to 2HKO, and in doing so, Zamazenta-C will take about 30% recoil per attack if the Toxapex has Rocky Helmet. This incentivizes Toxapex to go for occasional double Recovers instead of using Recover and Haze alternatingly to rack up more chip damage on Zamazenta-C. The Zamazenta-C player can try and play around this, but ultimately, even if they play perfectly, they are still going to end up taking a lot of damage in recoil.
+1 Close Combat only does about 49%, and every time you go for it, it softens you up for the Earthquake retaliation. However, the Hippowdon player may be more inclined just to Whirlwind the Zamazenta-C out, since Earthquake is only a 3HKO before using any CCs. It's sort of a similar matchup to Hippowdon's matchup against Bulk Up Urshifu, you need to decide whether risking a Whirlwind into something you can't heal up on is worth it. All things considered this matchup is still fairly positive for Hippowdon though.
Defensive Garchomp is really punishing if you can pivot in on an attack. With a lot of defense investment, it takes only like 35% from +0 Behemoth Bash, meaning it does almost as much back as it takes. Unless Zamazenta-C is running Ice Fang, it will be hard pressed to win against Garchomp before collapsing from recoil, and even if it does run Ice Fang, it will sustain enough damage that it will be easy enough to pick off afterwards.
One of those defensive mons you see on stall, even though it has fallen off since the ban of Zygarde. Naturally, Zamazenta-C can't break through Quagsire barring multiple lucky CC crits. Quagsire can cut through its Dauntless Shield defense boost and 3HKO back with Earthquake.
Okay, so, it seems like there is plenty of defensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C, and that nearly every good defensive mon in the tier can handle it to some extent (hyperbole). That's good. But how about checking Zamazenta-C offensively? Well that's where it gets a bit dicey. As mentioned, Zamazenta-C's insane bulk makes it very resistant to revenge killing. That said, it also has some mediocre matchups against key offensive mons. Take a look:
Offensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C:
Pheromosa is one of the most common offensive threats in OU, currently, and it's certainly capable of revenge killing Zamazenta-C, depending on set. Choice Band Jolly Close Combat, however, isn't a guaranteed OHKO against Zamazenta-C, only KOing 43.8% of the time. Forcing any sort of chip damage, be it U-turn chip, hazard damage, or forcing a Wild Charge improves those chances though. HDB variants of Pheromosa can't revenge kill nearly as well, especially since U-turn does hardly anything. However, special versions of Pheromosa fare much better, with LO Focus Blast being a guaranteed OHKO. Pheromosa is certainly one of the most common offensive mons that can revenge Zamazenta-C, but even it faces some challenges.
Scarf Landorus-T can handle Zamazenta-C fairly consistently. It only takes about 40% from -1 Behemoth Bash, and if you pivot in on CC or Wild Charge, even better. Earthquake 2HKOs back, of course, but Zamazenta-C takes like nothing from U-turn as previously stated, so predict well lest your opponent be a maverick and decide to switch in. Ice Fang can 2HKO Landorus-T, so be wary of that, but as mentioned before, it seems like a difficult move to justify running.
Spectrier isn't really the best check, but it's so common that I need to mention it here. Being able to outspeed and inflict a burn can be a huge limiting factor to Zamazenta-C. After it is burned, Spectrier will often be forced out, since it still takes over half from burned +1 Behemoth Bash, but if you have something that can force Zamazenta-C out, you have basically made it useless for much of the match. Specs Shadow Ball, and 130 BP Hex are both capable of 2HKOing, so despite not being a check, Spectrier can win in a 1v1 situation.
This mon is heavily overshadowed by Spectrier currently. Despite its bad bulk, it resists Behemoth Bash and Close Combat so you can pivot it in if you're feeling ballsy, and it's capable of OHKOing with Scarf Overheat.
Very bulky, and with no bulk investment at all it isn't even 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge. The main issue is, Choiced and AoA variants get forced out after going for an attack since it always takes a few hits to bring down Zamazenta-C. Variants with any combination of max HP, King's Shield, and Leftovers do much better since it forces more prediction.
Most effective when paired with a defensive switch-in that can maintain momentum, like Slowbro or Landorus-T. Its Specs Volt Switch does a bit over half, meaning you can just go for it twice generally. Thunderbolt does a hefty chunk as well, but generally just Volt Switching and bringing in something that can take a CC works fine.
Tapu Koko is faster than Zamazenta-C and it can definitely work to chip it down if it has Volt Switch as well. Unlike Regieleki, it is weaker, and the Electric Terrain it provides can power up Zamazenta-C's Wild Charge, meaning that if they predict incoming Slowbro or something it can be more punishing.
Ditto actually gets an additional Dauntless Shield boost when it copies Zamazenta-C. However, it is reliant on Close Combat to revenge kill which tanks its defenses. A +1 CC from Ditto usually doesn't kill a +1 Zamazenta-C, but a +1 CC from Zamazenta-C kills a +1 Ditto over half of the time, so Ditto isn't completely consistent unless you get a bit of chip damage first.
Scarf Heatran is something you see occasionally, and it handily OHKOs Zamazenta-C with Eruption.
These scarfers can't beat it 1v1 cause they take a lot of damage back, but they are capable of revenging a weakened Zamazenta-C.
Volcarona can withstand any attack at +1 and set up, then OHKO back with Flamethrower. The burn chance from Flame Body is nice too.
It can eat up +1 Close Combat and cook it with Overheat thanks to the Special Defense drop.
Magearna is not a check, but Specs Magearna can live +1 Close Combat and OHKO back (usually) with Specs Focus Blast. Those versions with Iron Defense can usually win in 1v1s, if Zamazenta-C doesn't already have a +1.
Far from the most common mon, but it has a great matchup, being resistant to both STABs. However, one V-Create usually isn't enough to get the job done, and you'll probably need to switch out cause of the Defense drops, and Speed drop if you're running Scarf.
Dragapult is pretty weak, and Specs Dragapult needs to click Flamethrower in order to always 2HKO, and it generally doesn't live a +1 Behemoth Bash, but it can win a 1v1 if Zamazenta-C is not set up so there's that.
Pretty poor matchup since it can't do much back, even with Body Press, but it's at least bulky enough that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 to 2HKO it. Pressure can also help burn PP from key moves if you predict right.
This matchup is a bit better, since you can use Whirlwind to prevent yourself from being setup fodder. Body Press actually does a bit more this time, being able to potentially 3HKO.
With Roost and Multiscale, it can really limit the damage it takes. It can just DD once so it's faster, then stall with Roost until Zamazenta-C does something besides attacking. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +2 to do over half to a Dragonite with no bulk investment and an intact Multiscale, and a +1 Dragonite generally 2HKOs with Earthquake, so this matchup is generally winnable by Dragonite.
Weather mons are okay at taking out a weakened Zamazenta-C too. Venusaur's LO Weather Ball in Sun does the most and can kill with very little chip damage. Barraskewda needs to chip down with Flip Turn first before committing to Close Combat, and since Zamazenta-C is so reliant on Wild Charge to hit Pelipper, Rain can play prediction games if they have a ground type. Excadrill doesn't do as great unfortunately, so you'll need some other means of forcing damage onto Zamazenta-C.
Who would make good partners for Zamazenta-C?
Grassy Terrain is nice, and makes up for Zamazenta's complete lack of recovery. Grassy Terrain weakening Earthquake also ameliorates the Landorus-T matchup a lot.
Tapu Koko would be great for threatening those bulky Waters that Zamazenta-C can't beat. It also provides Electric Terrain, which powers up its Wild Charge, letting it pose more of a threat.
It appreciates the Misty Terrain, which lets it click buttons freely against stuff like Moltres with less fear. Although it's not weak to hazards, you want to avoid any chip damage you can when using Zamazenta-C, so Defog is useful too.
Generally a good switch-in to Pheromosa, and if you have WishPort, you can provide Zamazenta-C with a lot more longevity.
Although it's less of a breaker in comparison to Urshifu, for instance, it still appreciates Future Sight support which discourages Buzzwole and Toxapex from coming in. It doesn't help much against opposing Slowbro though.
Spectrier's a great offensive partner for Zamazenta-C for much of the same reasons it's a good partner for Urshifu. They have some defensive synergy, with Zamazenta-C being able to pivot in on Dark moves and Spectrier dissuading Fighting attacks. Zamazenta-C being unfazed by Knock Off is great for pivoting in on them.
How would Zamazenta-C affect the meta?
Zamazenta-C's matchup against HO teams is pretty good, and might hurt their viability a bit. If Kyurem-B were still in OU, I'd say it would be one of the mons most affected by Zamazenta-C's presence. Rillaboom is especially stopped by Zamazenta-C, although it won't lose all of its viability, since it also seems like a pretty good partner for Zamazenta-C itself. More niche mons like Bisharp and Crawdaunt will drop off a lot. HO as a playstyle won't die out completely though. There are plenty of HO mons that don't care a whole lot about Zamazenta-C, such as a Magearna behind screens, or special Pheromosa, which has been catching on more. If anything, I could see Zamazenta-C being used as an offensive mon on offensive or balanced teams to not be steamrolled by opposing offense as easily. It might even see use on screens teams itself, since behind screens, it is very hard to stop with, uh, attacks.
- Slight depreciation in Hyper Offense
Clefable might start running Thunder Wave or Flamethrower more often in a meta with Zamazenta-C. Also, Body Press could become the more common move options on Corviknight and Ferrothorn again.
- More random anti-steel tech, less random Knock Off
Besides that I don't think Zamazenta-C would too fundamentally change the fabric of the metagame. I don't think it would lead to a complete death of offense as a playstyle, since Zamazenta-C seems very matchup-based and wont find itself on every team.
Conclusion
So what do you think? Is Zamazenta-C's offense matchup too much, or would the fact that it fumbles so hard against defensive mons balance it out? Either way, I hope my post helps inform your viewpoint :)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 70% chance to 3HKO (9.1 - 10.8% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 105-124 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (11.8 - 14% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 230-272 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (17.6 - 20.9% recoil damage)
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 138-163 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 144-170 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 118-141 (36.9 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 99-117 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 104-126 (32 - 38.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO (12.4 - 15% recovered)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.3 - 12.1% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (15.3 - 18.1% recoil damage)
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 63-75 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.1 - 9.6% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.1 - 14.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 39-46 (12 - 14.1%) -- possible 8HKO (lol)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-138 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 153-180 (36.4 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 132-156 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 324-384 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (118.4 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (47.3 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 344-408 (105.8 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 164-193 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.6 - 14.8% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.4 - 10% recoil damage)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 201-237 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 156-184 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Ditto Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This set is actually worse than you think. Metal Burst doesn't have decreased priority like Counter or Mirror Coat, meaning that it's completely worthless against anything slower, like the Magearna you used as an example. I really don't think that set is viable at all. Besides that, I really like your post, and the replays are interesting, so good stuff mate.
They have a section that mentioned why they chose Work Up Over Howl, I'd suggest reading the explanations for why they have that set before commenting.
Glad you liked my post! And yeah, Metal Burst being too fast for my Magearna example was a mistake I didn't factor in. I was kinda of trying to go over a lot so details were glossed over. During my testing in replays I used protect over metal burst as a scouting move vs fast threats. It proved pretty solid.I was going to post an essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis but was ninja'd by another essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis. Oh well, here you go.
Zamazenta-Crowned in OU: An Analysis
Hey yall. I'm sure most of us are tired about hearing about Zamazenta-Crowned in this thread, which is fair. But I've also noticed that a lot of the posts about Zamazenta-C have been kind of... bad, I guess? Between misinformation, half-baked posts, and incorrect calcs, Zamazenta-C seemed to tank the quality of discussion in this thread. So I decided to make a only-slightly-partisan (and good) post on the matter, to inform the discussion a bit more. Consider this a sort of a sequel to my "Unban Zamazenta" post from pre-release.
Speaking objectively, if Zamazenta-C were allowed in OU, it would have a fairly bad matchup against many mons that already form the backbone of balance cores, and much of its counterplay overlaps with counterplay for other Fighting-types in the tier, like Urshifu and Pheromosa. It boasts incredible bulk and resilience to certain forms of chip damage that can be limiting to physically offensive Pokemon, but between its relative predictability and vulnerability to certain other forms of chip damage limits most of its best matchups to being against offense. Let's get a breakdown of its strengths and weaknesses:
Zamazenta-C's strengths:
Zamazenta-C's flaws:
- Great speed tier lets it be an effective offensive mon.
- It has great bulk by anyone's standards, but for an offensive mon, it's almost incomprehensibly bulky, especially on the physical side. This gives it many setup opportunities and makes it exceedingly difficult to revenge kill.
- Steel / Fighting is kinda nice defensively; and it's also resistant to Stealth Rock, and immune to sandstorm and Toxic, meaning it can be difficult to chip down with hazards unless you're running Spikes.
- Being immune to item switching and item removal gives it a fairly unique niche, if you can predict a Trick or Knock Off.
So with all that considered, I think there would be one primary set for Zamazenta-C, were it allowed in OU. There might end up being some variants like Agility and some occasional RestTalk action, but those variants compound Zamazenta-C's primary shortcomings, being its inability to pose a threat to balance cores. Therefore, the following set would likely end up the main set worth using:
- It's not exceptionally strong, and as such, is very reliant on boosting its Attack with Work Up in order to pose a threat to defensive cores.
- Steel / Fighting as a STAB combo is walled by many prominent defensive mons.
- Although its typing makes it resistant to certain forms of chip damage, it's very vulnerable to other forms of chip damage compounded by its inability to hold Leftovers; mainly, its reliance on Wild Charge and vulnerability to Rocky Helmet can wear it down very quickly.
- To elaborate on this, being completely reliant on contact moves is a liability, since abilities and items that discourage contact moves are common in OU right now.
- Relatively small movepool, occupied item slot, and lack of tech like Toxic or Rock coverage make it fairly predictable.
- It is reliant on low PP moves like Close Combat and Behemoth Bash which can let it down over longer games.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Work Up
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
I think this would be the primary Zamazenta-C set in OU, more or less. Wild Charge would be the primary coverage option, since it covers Moltres, Toxapex, and Slowbro, along with other Water types. Other options like Psychic Fangs or Ice Fang are feasible, but miss out on many key targets. Also, despite what Showdown might tell you, Zamazenta-C cannot learn Iron Head. In game, Iron Head becomes Behemoth Bash when Zamazenta-C enters battle. Iron Head would have been a nice alternative over Behemoth Bash with higher PP and a flinch chance to sometimes win matchups it wouldn't be able to. Why Work Up over Howl? While it's true that Howl has more PP, Work Up has two advantages over Howl. First, it also boosts Special Attack, which boosts Moonblast. Moonblast is usable for being able to 2HKO Buzzwole at +1 with zero investment, and while it's otherwise a very suboptimal move to run, being able to always bluff having that move could be handy. The other reason is that if Zamazenta-C is hit by Throat Chop, it cannot use Howl. Pheromosa sometimes carries Throat Chop to revenge kill Spectrier consistently. The situation may arise where you need to pivot Zamazenta-C in on a CB Pheromosa Throat Chop, and if you do, there is no sense limiting your ability to set up. I also expect that It would run a Jolly nature primarily. An Adamant Zamazenta-C hits 355 Speed at max, which is slower than some key threats like Cinderace, Tornadus-T, and opposing Zamazenta-C, all of which would be able to revenge kill it after it has sustained some damage.
So, how would one go about dealing with this set defensively? Well it so happens that there are many common OU mons that are capable of dealing with it already! There's no need to dredge up mons from UU or lower in order to counter Zamazenta-C.
Defensively checking Zamazenta-C:
Zapdos is a counter to Zamazenta-C. It resists both of its STAB moves and is neutral to Wild Charge, and Static is super punishing to a mon as reliant on contact moves as Zamazenta-C is. Although it can only 3HKO with uninvested Hurricane or Heat Wave, Zamazenta needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to guarantee a 2HKO with CC or Wild Charge, so it more than balances out.
Moltres also has a very positive matchup against Zamazenta-C, although compared to Zapdos, it takes a lot more from Wild Charge. However, it poses a lot more of a threat with its STAB, being able to 2HKO back with Flamethrower. Flame Body is also equally punishing. It's worth noting that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 in order to 2HKO with Wild Charge, as well, meaning Zamazenta-C needs to set up on the switch in order to win the 1v1. Even then, whenever Moltres Roosts up on Wild Charge, Zamazenta-C takes a lot of recoil damage and risks a burn. You'll see that this sort of thing is a trend in matchups where it is reliant on Wild Charge.
Defensive Landorus-T's matchup against Zamazenta-C is pretty commanding, actually. 248/156+ Landorus-T takes about 26% from -1 Behemoth Bash which is absolutely hilarious and absolutely disincentivizes Zamazenta-C from going for anything but Work Up. +0 Behemoth Bash can 3HKO Landorus-T, so it is possible for Zamazenta-C to win the 1v1 (since Landorus-T's uninvested Earthquake only 2HKO's about 30% of the time) but it depends on predicting the switch and going for Work Up, and what will likely occur is that Landorus-T will simply pivot out to something else to sponge the Behemoth Bash. It forces a lot of prediction on the Zamazenta-C user, and it comes at a cost. Being so reliant on Behemoth Bash in this matchup is a big flaw, since it only has 8 PP. If the Zamazenta-C wastes Behemoth Bash PP too callously, it might find itself getting walled by Clefable or something later in the game. In fact, something like WishPort Clefable + Landorus-T can effectively give Landorus-T the extra HP it needs to burn enough of those Behemoth Bashes that Clefable is unbothered. Overall, this is the biggest argument towards running Ice Fang on Zamazenta-C, but giving up any of its other moves opens up some large weaknesses.
Buzzwole is an excellent counter to Zamazenta-C. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to consistently 2HKO Buzzwole with Behemoth Bash. Buzzwole almost always can 3HKO back with Drain Punch, and it recovers health while doing so, too. Even if Zamazenta-C runs Play Rough or Psychic Fangs to hit Buzzwole super effectively, it just has so much bulk that it can't even 2HKO with these moves at +1. Buzzwole does not need to run Bulk Up, but if it does, it basically turns Zamazenta-C into setup fodder. Being reliant on Behemoth Bash to try and wear Buzzwole does on switch-ins is also bad for much of the same reasons discussed in the Landorus-T section, in that it has limited PP.
Slowbro can be great for pivoting in on Zamazenta-C, although it can't be called a counter. The HDB 252/252+ set is 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge, and Slowbro can't do a whole lot back with Scald, burn chance notwithstanding. If Slowbro can inflict status, it goes a long way towards limiting Zamazenta-C, but generally, the Slowbro player's plan of attack would be to switch in, Teleport out while taking a +1 Wild Charge, and bringing in some sort of offensive revenge killer that can force Zamazenta-C to switch out. Zamazenta-C takes a lot of Wild Charge recoil from attacking Slowbro as well, which can put it into revenge kill ranges from mons like Pheromosa or Ditto, so a savvy player generally will be hesitant to click Wild Charge so freely early in a game, as well. Overall, it can be sufficient to limit Zamazenta-C while not being a super hard counter.
Against a healthy 252/252+ Toxapex without Black Sludge, a +1 Wild Charge into a neutral Wild Charge has only about a 6% chance of 2HKOing, in that there's only a 6% chance that both rolls will be high enough to 2HKO, and in doing so, Zamazenta-C will take about 30% recoil per attack if the Toxapex has Rocky Helmet. This incentivizes Toxapex to go for occasional double Recovers instead of using Recover and Haze alternatingly to rack up more chip damage on Zamazenta-C. The Zamazenta-C player can try and play around this, but ultimately, even if they play perfectly, they are still going to end up taking a lot of damage in recoil.
+1 Close Combat only does about 49%, and every time you go for it, it softens you up for the Earthquake retaliation. However, the Hippowdon player may be more inclined just to Whirlwind the Zamazenta-C out, since Earthquake is only a 3HKO before using any CCs. It's sort of a similar matchup to Hippowdon's matchup against Bulk Up Urshifu, you need to decide whether risking a Whirlwind into something you can't heal up on is worth it. All things considered this matchup is still fairly positive for Hippowdon though.
Defensive Garchomp is really punishing if you can pivot in on an attack. With a lot of defense investment, it takes only like 35% from +0 Behemoth Bash, meaning it does almost as much back as it takes. Unless Zamazenta-C is running Ice Fang, it will be hard pressed to win against Garchomp before collapsing from recoil, and even if it does run Ice Fang, it will sustain enough damage that it will be easy enough to pick off afterwards.
One of those defensive mons you see on stall, even though it has fallen off since the ban of Zygarde. Naturally, Zamazenta-C can't break through Quagsire barring multiple lucky CC crits. Quagsire can cut through its Dauntless Shield defense boost and 3HKO back with Earthquake.
Okay, so, it seems like there is plenty of defensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C, and that nearly every good defensive mon in the tier can handle it to some extent (hyperbole). That's good. But how about checking Zamazenta-C offensively? Well that's where it gets a bit dicey. As mentioned, Zamazenta-C's insane bulk makes it very resistant to revenge killing. That said, it also has some mediocre matchups against key offensive mons. Take a look:
Offensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C:
Pheromosa is one of the most common offensive threats in OU, currently, and it's certainly capable of revenge killing Zamazenta-C, depending on set. Choice Band Jolly Close Combat, however, isn't a guaranteed OHKO against Zamazenta-C, only KOing 43.8% of the time. Forcing any sort of chip damage, be it U-turn chip, hazard damage, or forcing a Wild Charge improves those chances though. HDB variants of Pheromosa can't revenge kill nearly as well, especially since U-turn does hardly anything. However, special versions of Pheromosa fare much better, with LO Focus Blast being a guaranteed OHKO. Pheromosa is certainly one of the most common offensive mons that can revenge Zamazenta-C, but even it faces some challenges.
Scarf Landorus-T can handle Zamazenta-C fairly consistently. It only takes about 40% from -1 Behemoth Bash, and if you pivot in on CC or Wild Charge, even better. Earthquake 2HKOs back, of course, but Zamazenta-C takes like nothing from U-turn as previously stated, so predict well lest your opponent be a maverick and decide to switch in. Ice Fang can 2HKO Landorus-T, so be wary of that, but as mentioned before, it seems like a difficult move to justify running.
Spectrier isn't really the best check, but it's so common that I need to mention it here. Being able to outspeed and inflict a burn can be a huge limiting factor to Zamazenta-C. After it is burned, Spectrier will often be forced out, since it still takes over half from burned +1 Behemoth Bash, but if you have something that can force Zamazenta-C out, you have basically made it useless for much of the match. Specs Shadow Ball, and 130 BP Hex are both capable of 2HKOing, so despite not being a check, Spectrier can win in a 1v1 situation.
This mon is heavily overshadowed by Spectrier currently. Despite its bad bulk, it resists Behemoth Bash and Close Combat so you can pivot it in if you're feeling ballsy, and it's capable of OHKOing with Scarf Overheat.
Very bulky, and with no bulk investment at all it isn't even 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge. The main issue is, Choiced and AoA variants get forced out after going for an attack since it always takes a few hits to bring down Zamazenta-C. Variants with any combination of max HP, King's Shield, and Leftovers do much better since it forces more prediction.
Most effective when paired with a defensive switch-in that can maintain momentum, like Slowbro or Landorus-T. Its Specs Volt Switch does a bit over half, meaning you can just go for it twice generally. Thunderbolt does a hefty chunk as well, but generally just Volt Switching and bringing in something that can take a CC works fine.
Tapu Koko is faster than Zamazenta-C and it can definitely work to chip it down if it has Volt Switch as well. Unlike Regieleki, it is weaker, and the Electric Terrain it provides can power up Zamazenta-C's Wild Charge, meaning that if they predict incoming Slowbro or something it can be more punishing.
Ditto actually gets an additional Dauntless Shield boost when it copies Zamazenta-C. However, it is reliant on Close Combat to revenge kill which tanks its defenses. A +1 CC from Ditto usually doesn't kill a +1 Zamazenta-C, but a +1 CC from Zamazenta-C kills a +1 Ditto over half of the time, so Ditto isn't completely consistent unless you get a bit of chip damage first.
Scarf Heatran is something you see occasionally, and it handily OHKOs Zamazenta-C with Eruption.
These scarfers can't beat it 1v1 cause they take a lot of damage back, but they are capable of revenging a weakened Zamazenta-C.
Volcarona can withstand any attack at +1 and set up, then OHKO back with Flamethrower. The burn chance from Flame Body is nice too.
It can eat up +1 Close Combat and cook it with Overheat thanks to the Special Defense drop.
Magearna is not a check, but Specs Magearna can live +1 Close Combat and OHKO back (usually) with Specs Focus Blast. Those versions with Iron Defense can usually win in 1v1s, if Zamazenta-C doesn't already have a +1.
Far from the most common mon, but it has a great matchup, being resistant to both STABs. However, one V-Create usually isn't enough to get the job done, and you'll probably need to switch out cause of the Defense drops, and Speed drop if you're running Scarf.
Dragapult is pretty weak, and Specs Dragapult needs to click Flamethrower in order to always 2HKO, and it generally doesn't live a +1 Behemoth Bash, but it can win a 1v1 if Zamazenta-C is not set up so there's that.
Pretty poor matchup since it can't do much back, even with Body Press, but it's at least bulky enough that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 to 2HKO it. Pressure can also help burn PP from key moves if you predict right.
This matchup is a bit better, since you can use Whirlwind to prevent yourself from being setup fodder. Body Press actually does a bit more this time, being able to potentially 3HKO.
With Roost and Multiscale, it can really limit the damage it takes. It can just DD once so it's faster, then stall with Roost until Zamazenta-C does something besides attacking. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +2 to do over half to a Dragonite with no bulk investment and an intact Multiscale, and a +1 Dragonite generally 2HKOs with Earthquake, so this matchup is generally winnable by Dragonite.
Weather mons are okay at taking out a weakened Zamazenta-C too. Venusaur's LO Weather Ball in Sun does the most and can kill with very little chip damage. Barraskewda needs to chip down with Flip Turn first before committing to Close Combat, and since Zamazenta-C is so reliant on Wild Charge to hit Pelipper, Rain can play prediction games if they have a ground type. Excadrill doesn't do as great unfortunately, so you'll need some other means of forcing damage onto Zamazenta-C.
Who would make good partners for Zamazenta-C?
Grassy Terrain is nice, and makes up for Zamazenta's complete lack of recovery. Grassy Terrain weakening Earthquake also ameliorates the Landorus-T matchup a lot.
Tapu Koko would be great for threatening those bulky Waters that Zamazenta-C can't beat. It also provides Electric Terrain, which powers up its Wild Charge, letting it pose more of a threat.
It appreciates the Misty Terrain, which lets it click buttons freely against stuff like Moltres with less fear. Although it's not weak to hazards, you want to avoid any chip damage you can when using Zamazenta-C, so Defog is useful too.
Generally a good switch-in to Pheromosa, and if you have WishPort, you can provide Zamazenta-C with a lot more longevity.
Although it's less of a breaker in comparison to Urshifu, for instance, it still appreciates Future Sight support which discourages Buzzwole and Toxapex from coming in. It doesn't help much against opposing Slowbro though.
Spectrier's a great offensive partner for Zamazenta-C for much of the same reasons it's a good partner for Urshifu. They have some defensive synergy, with Zamazenta-C being able to pivot in on Dark moves and Spectrier dissuading Fighting attacks. Zamazenta-C being unfazed by Knock Off is great for pivoting in on them.
How would Zamazenta-C affect the meta?
Zamazenta-C's matchup against HO teams is pretty good, and might hurt their viability a bit. If Kyurem-B were still in OU, I'd say it would be one of the mons most affected by Zamazenta-C's presence. Rillaboom is especially stopped by Zamazenta-C, although it won't lose all of its viability, since it also seems like a pretty good partner for Zamazenta-C itself. More niche mons like Bisharp and Crawdaunt will drop off a lot. HO as a playstyle won't die out completely though. There are plenty of HO mons that don't care a whole lot about Zamazenta-C, such as a Magearna behind screens, or special Pheromosa, which has been catching on more. If anything, I could see Zamazenta-C being used as an offensive mon on offensive or balanced teams to not be steamrolled by opposing offense as easily. It might even see use on screens teams itself, since behind screens, it is very hard to stop with, uh, attacks.
- Slight depreciation in Hyper Offense
Clefable might start running Thunder Wave or Flamethrower more often in a meta with Zamazenta-C. Also, Body Press could become the more common move options on Corviknight and Ferrothorn again.
- More random anti-steel tech, less random Knock Off
Besides that I don't think Zamazenta-C would too fundamentally change the fabric of the metagame. I don't think it would lead to a complete death of offense as a playstyle, since Zamazenta-C seems very matchup-based and wont find itself on every team.
Conclusion
So what do you think? Is Zamazenta-C's offense matchup too much, or would the fact that it fumbles so hard against defensive mons balance it out? Either way, I hope my post helps inform your viewpoint :)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 70% chance to 3HKO (9.1 - 10.8% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 105-124 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (11.8 - 14% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 230-272 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (17.6 - 20.9% recoil damage)
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 138-163 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 144-170 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 118-141 (36.9 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 99-117 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 104-126 (32 - 38.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO (12.4 - 15% recovered)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.3 - 12.1% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (15.3 - 18.1% recoil damage)
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 63-75 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.1 - 9.6% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.1 - 14.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 39-46 (12 - 14.1%) -- possible 8HKO (lol)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-138 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 153-180 (36.4 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 132-156 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 324-384 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (118.4 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (47.3 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 344-408 (105.8 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 164-193 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.6 - 14.8% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.4 - 10% recoil damage)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 201-237 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 156-184 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Ditto Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This set is actually worse than you think. Metal Burst doesn't have decreased priority like Counter or Mirror Coat, meaning that it's completely worthless against anything slower, like the Magearna you used as an example. I really don't think that set is viable at all. Besides that, I really like your post, and the replays are interesting, so good stuff mate.
There is a lot to still consider, we don't know for sure what mons or sets might spring up if Zama were to drop, I was just providing some possibilities.
You work up set and explanation behind it is very good! Fan of the idea of being able to snipe buzzwole and also avoiding throat chop. I agree with your analysis for how Zama will affect the meta, and honestly I think its a good thing. An actual viable offensive knock absorber could be great in OU to prevent pokemon like Clef from being as spammy as they are, and a drop in HO is always welcome. Current meta HO, especially with likes of setup magearna around, seem to have too many free matchups. Limiting HO a bit is fine.
This has been proposed before but it would be cool if OU operated an experimental beta ladder for rapid pre testing of stuff for people who wanna try things. I realize custom games exist but I’m certain this idea would have more mainstream appeal than something like Blitz (or RU, I’m kidding but not really). Lots of flavor of the week things like ZamaC or item clause or form clause or whatever could be rotated in and out.
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Absolutely awesome post! Just one quick correction. Blacephalon doesn't resist STAB Close Combat, it's immune to Close Combat. I'm so excited and am seriously hoping that ShieldDoggo gets tested in OU, I think it'll be really healthy for the metagame.I was going to post an essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis but was ninja'd by another essay-length Zamazenta-C analysis. Oh well, here you go.
Zamazenta-Crowned in OU: An Analysis
Hey yall. I'm sure most of us are tired about hearing about Zamazenta-Crowned in this thread, which is fair. But I've also noticed that a lot of the posts about Zamazenta-C have been kind of... bad, I guess? Between misinformation, half-baked posts, and incorrect calcs, Zamazenta-C seemed to tank the quality of discussion in this thread. So I decided to make a only-slightly-partisan (and good) post on the matter, to inform the discussion a bit more. Consider this a sort of a sequel to my "Unban Zamazenta" post from pre-release.
Speaking objectively, if Zamazenta-C were allowed in OU, it would have a fairly bad matchup against many mons that already form the backbone of balance cores, and much of its counterplay overlaps with counterplay for other Fighting-types in the tier, like Urshifu and Pheromosa. It boasts incredible bulk and resilience to certain forms of chip damage that can be limiting to physically offensive Pokemon, but between its relative predictability and vulnerability to certain other forms of chip damage limits most of its best matchups to being against offense. Let's get a breakdown of its strengths and weaknesses:
Zamazenta-C's strengths:
Zamazenta-C's flaws:
- Great speed tier lets it be an effective offensive mon.
- It has great bulk by anyone's standards, but for an offensive mon, it's almost incomprehensibly bulky, especially on the physical side. This gives it many setup opportunities and makes it exceedingly difficult to revenge kill.
- Steel / Fighting is kinda nice defensively; and it's also resistant to Stealth Rock, and immune to sandstorm and Toxic, meaning it can be difficult to chip down with hazards unless you're running Spikes.
- Being immune to item switching and item removal gives it a fairly unique niche, if you can predict a Trick or Knock Off.
So with all that considered, I think there would be one primary set for Zamazenta-C, were it allowed in OU. There might end up being some variants like Agility and some occasional RestTalk action, but those variants compound Zamazenta-C's primary shortcomings, being its inability to pose a threat to balance cores. Therefore, the following set would likely end up the main set worth using:
- It's not exceptionally strong, and as such, is very reliant on boosting its Attack with Work Up in order to pose a threat to defensive cores.
- Steel / Fighting as a STAB combo is walled by many prominent defensive mons.
- Although its typing makes it resistant to certain forms of chip damage, it's very vulnerable to other forms of chip damage compounded by its inability to hold Leftovers; mainly, its reliance on Wild Charge and vulnerability to Rocky Helmet can wear it down very quickly.
- To elaborate on this, being completely reliant on contact moves is a liability, since abilities and items that discourage contact moves are common in OU right now.
- Relatively small movepool, occupied item slot, and lack of tech like Toxic or Rock coverage make it fairly predictable.
- It is reliant on low PP moves like Close Combat and Behemoth Bash which can let it down over longer games.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Work Up
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
I think this would be the primary Zamazenta-C set in OU, more or less. Wild Charge would be the primary coverage option, since it covers Moltres, Toxapex, and Slowbro, along with other Water types. Other options like Psychic Fangs or Ice Fang are feasible, but miss out on many key targets. Also, despite what Showdown might tell you, Zamazenta-C cannot learn Iron Head. In game, Iron Head becomes Behemoth Bash when Zamazenta-C enters battle. Iron Head would have been a nice alternative over Behemoth Bash with higher PP and a flinch chance to sometimes win matchups it wouldn't be able to. Why Work Up over Howl? While it's true that Howl has more PP, Work Up has two advantages over Howl. First, it also boosts Special Attack, which boosts Moonblast. Moonblast is usable for being able to 2HKO Buzzwole at +1 with zero investment, and while it's otherwise a very suboptimal move to run, being able to always bluff having that move could be handy. The other reason is that if Zamazenta-C is hit by Throat Chop, it cannot use Howl. Pheromosa sometimes carries Throat Chop to revenge kill Spectrier consistently. The situation may arise where you need to pivot Zamazenta-C in on a CB Pheromosa Throat Chop, and if you do, there is no sense limiting your ability to set up. I also expect that It would run a Jolly nature primarily. An Adamant Zamazenta-C hits 355 Speed at max, which is slower than some key threats like Cinderace, Tornadus-T, and opposing Zamazenta-C, all of which would be able to revenge kill it after it has sustained some damage. While there is an argument for only speed-creeping Tornadus-T or Scarf Magearna (because in a 1v1 situation between two Zamazenta-C at full health, the slower one can sometimes win due to hitting after the faster one has taken a CC drop), I feel like more often then not, being faster than opposing Zamazenta-C is more useful.
So, how would one go about dealing with this set defensively? Well it so happens that there are many common OU mons that are capable of dealing with it already! There's no need to dredge up mons from UU or lower in order to counter Zamazenta-C.
Defensively checking Zamazenta-C:
Zapdos is a counter to Zamazenta-C. It resists both of its STAB moves and is neutral to Wild Charge, and Static is super punishing to a mon as reliant on contact moves as Zamazenta-C is. Although it can only 3HKO with uninvested Hurricane or Heat Wave, Zamazenta needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to guarantee a 2HKO with CC or Wild Charge, so it more than balances out.
Moltres also has a very positive matchup against Zamazenta-C, although compared to Zapdos, it takes a lot more from Wild Charge. However, it poses a lot more of a threat with its STAB, being able to 2HKO back with Flamethrower. Flame Body is also equally punishing. It's worth noting that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 in order to 2HKO with Wild Charge, as well, meaning Zamazenta-C needs to set up on the switch in order to win the 1v1. Even then, whenever Moltres Roosts up on Wild Charge, Zamazenta-C takes a lot of recoil damage and risks a burn. You'll see that this sort of thing is a trend in matchups where it is reliant on Wild Charge.
Defensive Landorus-T's matchup against Zamazenta-C is pretty commanding, actually. 248/156+ Landorus-T takes about 26% from -1 Behemoth Bash which is absolutely hilarious and absolutely disincentivizes Zamazenta-C from going for anything but Work Up. +0 Behemoth Bash can 3HKO Landorus-T, so it is possible for Zamazenta-C to win the 1v1 (since Landorus-T's uninvested Earthquake only 2HKO's about 30% of the time) but it depends on predicting the switch and going for Work Up, and what will likely occur is that Landorus-T will simply pivot out to something else to sponge the Behemoth Bash. It forces a lot of prediction on the Zamazenta-C user, and it comes at a cost. Being so reliant on Behemoth Bash in this matchup is a big flaw, since it only has 8 PP. If the Zamazenta-C wastes Behemoth Bash PP too callously, it might find itself getting walled by Clefable or something later in the game. In fact, something like WishPort Clefable + Landorus-T can effectively give Landorus-T the extra HP it needs to burn enough of those Behemoth Bashes that Clefable is unbothered. Overall, this is the biggest argument towards running Ice Fang on Zamazenta-C, but giving up any of its other moves opens up some large weaknesses.
Buzzwole is an excellent counter to Zamazenta-C. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +3 Attack just to be able to consistently 2HKO Buzzwole with Behemoth Bash. Buzzwole almost always can 3HKO back with Drain Punch, and it recovers health while doing so, too. Even if Zamazenta-C runs Play Rough or Psychic Fangs to hit Buzzwole super effectively, it just has so much bulk that it can't even 2HKO with these moves at +1. Buzzwole does not need to run Bulk Up, but if it does, it basically turns Zamazenta-C into setup fodder. Being reliant on Behemoth Bash to try and wear Buzzwole does on switch-ins is also bad for much of the same reasons discussed in the Landorus-T section, in that it has limited PP.
Slowbro can be great for pivoting in on Zamazenta-C, although it can't be called a counter. The HDB 252/252+ set is 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge, and Slowbro can't do a whole lot back with Scald, burn chance notwithstanding. If Slowbro can inflict status, it goes a long way towards limiting Zamazenta-C, but generally, the Slowbro player's plan of attack would be to switch in, Teleport out while taking a +1 Wild Charge, and bringing in some sort of offensive revenge killer that can force Zamazenta-C to switch out. Zamazenta-C takes a lot of Wild Charge recoil from attacking Slowbro as well, which can put it into revenge kill ranges from mons like Pheromosa or Ditto, so a savvy player generally will be hesitant to click Wild Charge so freely early in a game, as well. Overall, it can be sufficient to limit Zamazenta-C while not being a super hard counter.
Against a healthy 252/252+ Toxapex without Black Sludge, a +1 Wild Charge into a neutral Wild Charge has only about a 6% chance of 2HKOing, in that there's only a 6% chance that both rolls will be high enough to 2HKO, and in doing so, Zamazenta-C will take about 30% recoil per attack if the Toxapex has Rocky Helmet. This incentivizes Toxapex to go for occasional double Recovers instead of using Recover and Haze alternatingly to rack up more chip damage on Zamazenta-C. The Zamazenta-C player can try and play around this, but ultimately, even if they play perfectly, they are still going to end up taking a lot of damage in recoil.
+1 Close Combat only does about 49%, and every time you go for it, it softens you up for the Earthquake retaliation. However, the Hippowdon player may be more inclined just to Whirlwind the Zamazenta-C out, since Earthquake is only a 3HKO before using any CCs. It's sort of a similar matchup to Hippowdon's matchup against Bulk Up Urshifu, you need to decide whether risking a Whirlwind into something you can't heal up on is worth it. All things considered this matchup is still fairly positive for Hippowdon though.
Defensive Garchomp is really punishing if you can pivot in on an attack. With a lot of defense investment, it takes only like 35% from +0 Behemoth Bash, meaning it does almost as much back as it takes. Unless Zamazenta-C is running Ice Fang, it will be hard pressed to win against Garchomp before collapsing from recoil, and even if it does run Ice Fang, it will sustain enough damage that it will be easy enough to pick off afterwards.
One of those defensive mons you see on stall, even though it has fallen off since the ban of Zygarde. Naturally, Zamazenta-C can't break through Quagsire barring multiple lucky CC crits. Quagsire can cut through its Dauntless Shield defense boost and 3HKO back with Earthquake.
Okay, so, it seems like there is plenty of defensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C, and that nearly every good defensive mon in the tier can handle it to some extent (hyperbole). That's good. But how about checking Zamazenta-C offensively? Well that's where it gets a bit dicey. As mentioned, Zamazenta-C's insane bulk makes it very resistant to revenge killing. That said, it also has some mediocre matchups against key offensive mons. Take a look:
Offensive counterplay for Zamazenta-C:
Pheromosa is one of the most common offensive threats in OU, currently, and it's certainly capable of revenge killing Zamazenta-C, depending on set. Choice Band Jolly Close Combat, however, isn't a guaranteed OHKO against Zamazenta-C, only KOing 43.8% of the time. Forcing any sort of chip damage, be it U-turn chip, hazard damage, or forcing a Wild Charge improves those chances though. HDB variants of Pheromosa can't revenge kill nearly as well, especially since U-turn does hardly anything. However, special versions of Pheromosa fare much better, with LO Focus Blast being a guaranteed OHKO. Pheromosa is certainly one of the most common offensive mons that can revenge Zamazenta-C, but even it faces some challenges.
Scarf Landorus-T can handle Zamazenta-C fairly consistently. It only takes about 40% from -1 Behemoth Bash, and if you pivot in on CC or Wild Charge, even better. Earthquake 2HKOs back, of course, but Zamazenta-C takes like nothing from U-turn as previously stated, so predict well lest your opponent be a maverick and decide to switch in. Ice Fang can 2HKO Landorus-T, so be wary of that, but as mentioned before, it seems like a difficult move to justify running.
Spectrier isn't really the best check, but it's so common that I need to mention it here. Being able to outspeed and inflict a burn can be a huge limiting factor to Zamazenta-C. After it is burned, Spectrier will often be forced out, since it still takes over half from burned +1 Behemoth Bash, but if you have something that can force Zamazenta-C out, you have basically made it useless for much of the match. Specs Shadow Ball, and 130 BP Hex are both capable of 2HKOing, so despite not being a check, Spectrier can win in a 1v1 situation.
This mon is heavily overshadowed by Spectrier currently. Despite its bad bulk, it resists Behemoth Bash and Close Combat so you can pivot it in if you're feeling ballsy, and it's capable of OHKOing with Scarf Overheat.
Very bulky, and with no bulk investment at all it isn't even 2HKO'd by +1 Wild Charge. The main issue is, Choiced and AoA variants get forced out after going for an attack since it always takes a few hits to bring down Zamazenta-C. Variants with any combination of max HP, King's Shield, and Leftovers do much better since it forces more prediction.
Most effective when paired with a defensive switch-in that can maintain momentum, like Slowbro or Landorus-T. Its Specs Volt Switch does a bit over half, meaning you can just go for it twice generally. Thunderbolt does a hefty chunk as well, but generally just Volt Switching and bringing in something that can take a CC works fine.
Tapu Koko is faster than Zamazenta-C and it can definitely work to chip it down if it has Volt Switch as well. Unlike Regieleki, it is weaker, and the Electric Terrain it provides can power up Zamazenta-C's Wild Charge, meaning that if they predict incoming Slowbro or something it can be more punishing.
Ditto actually gets an additional Dauntless Shield boost when it copies Zamazenta-C. However, it is reliant on Close Combat to revenge kill which tanks its defenses. A +1 CC from Ditto usually doesn't kill a +1 Zamazenta-C, but a +1 CC from Zamazenta-C kills a +1 Ditto over half of the time, so Ditto isn't completely consistent unless you get a bit of chip damage first.
Scarf Heatran is something you see occasionally, and it handily OHKOs Zamazenta-C with Eruption.
These scarfers can't beat it 1v1 cause they take a lot of damage back, but they are capable of revenging a weakened Zamazenta-C.
Volcarona can withstand any attack at +1 and set up, then OHKO back with Flamethrower. The burn chance from Flame Body is nice too.
It can eat up +1 Close Combat and cook it with Overheat thanks to the Special Defense drop.
Magearna is not a check, but Specs Magearna can live +1 Close Combat and OHKO back (usually) with Specs Focus Blast. Those versions with Iron Defense can usually win in 1v1s, if Zamazenta-C doesn't already have a +1.
Far from the most common mon, but it has a great matchup, being resistant to both STABs. However, one V-Create usually isn't enough to get the job done, and you'll probably need to switch out cause of the Defense drops, and Speed drop if you're running Scarf.
Dragapult is pretty weak, and Specs Dragapult needs to click Flamethrower in order to always 2HKO, and it generally doesn't live a +1 Behemoth Bash, but it can win a 1v1 if Zamazenta-C is not set up so there's that.
Pretty poor matchup since it can't do much back, even with Body Press, but it's at least bulky enough that Zamazenta-C needs to be at +1 to 2HKO it. Pressure can also help burn PP from key moves if you predict right.
This matchup is a bit better, since you can use Whirlwind to prevent yourself from being setup fodder. Body Press actually does a bit more this time, being able to potentially 3HKO.
With Roost and Multiscale, it can really limit the damage it takes. It can just DD once so it's faster, then stall with Roost until Zamazenta-C does something besides attacking. Zamazenta-C needs to be at +2 to do over half to a Dragonite with no bulk investment and an intact Multiscale, and a +1 Dragonite generally 2HKOs with Earthquake, so this matchup is generally winnable by Dragonite.
Weather mons are okay at taking out a weakened Zamazenta-C too. Venusaur's LO Weather Ball in Sun does the most and can kill with very little chip damage. Barraskewda needs to chip down with Flip Turn first before committing to Close Combat, and since Zamazenta-C is so reliant on Wild Charge to hit Pelipper, Rain can play prediction games if they have a ground type. Excadrill doesn't do as great unfortunately, so you'll need some other means of forcing damage onto Zamazenta-C.
Who would make good partners for Zamazenta-C?
Grassy Terrain is nice, and makes up for Zamazenta's complete lack of recovery. Grassy Terrain weakening Earthquake also ameliorates the Landorus-T matchup a lot.
Tapu Koko would be great for threatening those bulky Waters that Zamazenta-C can't beat. It also provides Electric Terrain, which powers up its Wild Charge, letting it pose more of a threat.
It appreciates the Misty Terrain, which lets it click buttons freely against stuff like Moltres with less fear. Although it's not weak to hazards, you want to avoid any chip damage you can when using Zamazenta-C, so Defog is useful too.
Generally a good switch-in to Pheromosa, and if you have WishPort, you can provide Zamazenta-C with a lot more longevity.
Although it's less of a breaker in comparison to Urshifu, for instance, it still appreciates Future Sight support which discourages Buzzwole and Toxapex from coming in. It doesn't help much against opposing Slowbro though.
Spectrier's a great offensive partner for Zamazenta-C for much of the same reasons it's a good partner for Urshifu. They have some defensive synergy, with Zamazenta-C being able to pivot in on Dark moves and Spectrier dissuading Fighting attacks. Zamazenta-C being unfazed by Knock Off is great for pivoting in on them.
How would Zamazenta-C affect the meta?
Zamazenta-C's matchup against HO teams is pretty good, and might hurt their viability a bit. If Kyurem-B were still in OU, I'd say it would be one of the mons most affected by Zamazenta-C's presence. Rillaboom is especially stopped by Zamazenta-C, although it won't lose all of its viability, since it also seems like a pretty good partner for Zamazenta-C itself. More niche mons like Bisharp and Crawdaunt will drop off a lot. HO as a playstyle won't die out completely though. There are plenty of HO mons that don't care a whole lot about Zamazenta-C, such as a Magearna behind screens, or special Pheromosa, which has been catching on more. If anything, I could see Zamazenta-C being used as an offensive mon on offensive or balanced teams to not be steamrolled by opposing offense as easily. It might even see use on screens teams itself, since behind screens, it is very hard to stop with, uh, attacks.
- Slight depreciation in Hyper Offense
Clefable might start running Thunder Wave or Flamethrower more often in a meta with Zamazenta-C. Also, Body Press could become the more common move options on Corviknight and Ferrothorn again.
- More random anti-steel tech, less random Knock Off
Defensive Landorus-T isn't as omnipresent as it has been historically, as it doesn't have too great of a matchup against pre-eminent Fighting-types in Pheromosa and Urshifu. It does really good against Zamazenta-C though, so we'd probably see it more, especially since it's a "glue" mon that can fit on a lot of types of teams.
- More defensive Lando-T
Besides that I don't think Zamazenta-C would too fundamentally change the fabric of the metagame. I don't think it would lead to a complete death of offense as a playstyle, since Zamazenta-C seems very matchup-based and wont find itself on every team.
Conclusion
So what do you think? Is Zamazenta-C's offense matchup too much, or would the fact that it fumbles so hard against defensive mons balance it out? Either way, I hope my post helps inform your viewpoint :)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 70% chance to 3HKO (9.1 - 10.8% recoil damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 105-124 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (11.8 - 14% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Moltres: 230-272 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (17.6 - 20.9% recoil damage)
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Landorus-Therian: 138-163 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 144-170 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 118-141 (36.9 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (65.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 99-117 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 104-126 (32 - 38.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO (12.4 - 15% recovered)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (10.3 - 12.1% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (15.3 - 18.1% recoil damage)
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 63-75 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.1 - 9.6% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.1 - 14.3% recoil damage)
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 39-46 (12 - 14.1%) -- possible 8HKO (lol)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-138 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 153-180 (36.4 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Garchomp: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 132-156 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 324-384 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 385-455 (118.4 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 154-183 (47.3 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 344-408 (105.8 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 164-193 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.6 - 14.8% recoil damage)
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (8.4 - 10% recoil damage)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-195 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 110-130 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 201-237 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 156-184 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Ditto Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This set is actually worse than you think. Metal Burst doesn't have decreased priority like Counter or Mirror Coat, meaning that it's completely worthless against anything slower, like the Magearna you used as an example. I really don't think that set is viable at all. Besides that, I really like your post, and the replays are interesting, so good stuff mate.
Two ladder proposals always end poorly. Splintering the playerbase in general is a bad idea and I can elaborate on this more if people want examples/context. I would much prefer just a formal retest and I personally intend to advocate for one once the rest of the metagame settles/we handle actual problems in the metagame. We are not there yet though, hence the plethora of posts advocating for action on things currently in the tier.
Also, good evening FINCHTOUR30
Tundra Cup Round 4 usage stats are here! Zygarde and Kyurem-Black were legal this round, so take these stats with a grain of salt.
Round 4 Usage Stats
Moves and Teammates
Combos
Round 4 Leads
Edit: rip name change, so we'll change our avatars for the rest of the month instead
#FINCHTOUR30
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Clefable | 58 | 43.94% | 51.72% |
| 2 | Landorus-Therian | 51 | 38.64% | 52.94% |
| 3 | Toxapex | 41 | 31.06% | 56.10% |
| 4 | Zygarde | 39 | 29.55% | 53.85% |
| 5 | Melmetal | 37 | 28.03% | 51.35% |
| 6 | Magearna | 32 | 24.24% | 59.38% |
| 7 | Kyurem-Black | 26 | 19.70% | 46.15% |
| 8 | Slowbro | 25 | 18.94% | 52.00% |
| 8 | Heatran | 25 | 18.94% | 52.00% |
| 10 | Urshifu-* | 24 | 18.18% | 37.50% |
| 11 | Blissey | 23 | 17.42% | 56.52% |
| 12 | Pheromosa | 21 | 15.91% | 61.90% |
| 13 | Mandibuzz | 20 | 15.15% | 60.00% |
| 14 | Cinderace | 18 | 13.64% | 66.67% |
| 14 | Zapdos | 18 | 13.64% | 61.11% |
| 14 | Spectrier | 18 | 13.64% | 38.89% |
| 17 | Buzzwole | 17 | 12.88% | 47.06% |
| 18 | Zarude | 16 | 12.12% | 50.00% |
| 18 | Ferrothorn | 16 | 12.12% | 37.50% |
| 20 | Moltres | 15 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 20 | Tornadus-Therian | 15 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 20 | Excadrill | 15 | 11.36% | 20.00% |
| 23 | Tyranitar | 14 | 10.61% | 35.71% |
| 24 | Hydreigon | 13 | 9.85% | 30.77% |
| 25 | Tapu Koko | 12 | 9.09% | 41.67% |
| 26 | Tapu Fini | 11 | 8.33% | 36.36% |
| 27 | Slowking | 10 | 7.58% | 70.00% |
| 27 | Dragapult | 10 | 7.58% | 60.00% |
| 27 | Regieleki | 10 | 7.58% | 60.00% |
| 30 | Tapu Lele | 9 | 6.82% | 100.00% |
| 30 | Nidoking | 9 | 6.82% | 44.44% |
| 32 | Garchomp | 7 | 5.30% | 85.71% |
| 33 | Kartana | 6 | 4.55% | 66.67% |
| 33 | Pelipper | 6 | 4.55% | 33.33% |
| 33 | Swampert | 6 | 4.55% | 33.33% |
| 36 | Zapdos-Galar | 5 | 3.79% | 80.00% |
| 36 | Dragonite | 5 | 3.79% | 40.00% |
| 36 | Latios | 5 | 3.79% | 40.00% |
| 36 | Corviknight | 5 | 3.79% | 20.00% |
| 40 | Celesteela | 4 | 3.03% | 75.00% |
| 40 | Blaziken | 4 | 3.03% | 0.00% |
| 42 | Rillaboom | 3 | 2.27% | 66.67% |
| 42 | Victini | 3 | 2.27% | 33.33% |
| 42 | Ninetales-Alola | 3 | 2.27% | 33.33% |
| 42 | Barraskewda | 3 | 2.27% | 33.33% |
| 42 | Tangrowth | 3 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 47 | Conkeldurr | 2 | 1.52% | 100.00% |
| 47 | Quagsire | 2 | 1.52% | 100.00% |
| 47 | Skarmory | 2 | 1.52% | 100.00% |
| 47 | Seismitoad | 2 | 1.52% | 100.00% |
| 47 | Magnezone | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Hatterene | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Chansey | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Hippowdon | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Dracozolt | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Hawlucha | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Azumarill | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Klefki | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Zeraora | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Suicune | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 47 | Ditto | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 47 | Kingdra | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 47 | Glastrier | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 47 | Nidoqueen | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Azelf | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Tapu Bulu | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Diggersby | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Diancie | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Mew | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Volcanion | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Omastar | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Slowking-Galar | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Torkoal | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Venusaur | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Cresselia | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Marowak-Alola | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Jirachi | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Inteleon | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Crawdaunt | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Reuniclus | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Grimmsnarl | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Moltres-Galar | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Arctozolt | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Krookodile | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |Combos
Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 27 | 20.45% | 59.26% |
| 2 | Toxapex | 15 | 11.36% | 60.00% |
| 3 | Clefable | 13 | 9.85% | 61.54% |
| 4 | Pheromosa | 5 | 3.79% | 60.00% |
| 4 | Melmetal | 5 | 3.79% | 40.00% |
| 6 | Tornadus-Therian | 4 | 3.03% | 75.00% |
| 6 | Dragapult | 4 | 3.03% | 50.00% |
| 6 | Tapu Koko | 4 | 3.03% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Cinderace | 3 | 2.27% | 66.67% |
| 9 | Magearna | 3 | 2.27% | 66.67% |
| 9 | Swampert | 3 | 2.27% | 33.33% |
| 9 | Victini | 3 | 2.27% | 33.33% |
| 9 | Zapdos | 3 | 2.27% | 33.33% |
| 9 | Tapu Fini | 3 | 2.27% | 33.33% |
| 9 | Heatran | 3 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 16 | Tapu Lele | 2 | 1.52% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Pelipper | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 16 | Latios | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 16 | Slowking | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 16 | Ferrothorn | 2 | 1.52% | 50.00% |
| 16 | Excadrill | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 16 | Tyranitar | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 16 | Mandibuzz | 2 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Azelf | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Kyurem-Black | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Zygarde | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Kartana | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Barraskewda | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Slowbro | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Zapdos-Galar | 1 | 0.76% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Spectrier | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Buzzwole | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Torkoal | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Suicune | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Glastrier | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Blissey | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Klefki | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Tangrowth | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Nidoqueen | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Ninetales-Alola | 1 | 0.76% | 0.00% |It would appear I have lostIf my post (the one you're reading) gets more likes than yours by Monday, then I'm deleting yours
If I lose this I'll change my name to FINCHTOUR30 for the rest of the month
Edit: rip name change, so we'll change our avatars for the rest of the month instead
#FINCHTOUR30
Last edited:
Katy
Banned deucer.
Round 4 Tundra Cup Usage Stats and Winratios!
What impressed me the most this round of the crown tundra cup is
's Winratio, which clearly shows this Tapu can still be a force in the metagame. It was used 9 times and out of the 9 times it won all games. A 100% winratio clearly shows this mon can still put in work in this metagame.
Tapu Lele's Choice-Sets shouldn't be underestimated and can dent holes in the opposing teams pretty easily with its great typing in Psychic and Fairy, which doesn't leave it as vulnerable to dark-types which thrive in the metagame because of Spectriers usage.
Another pokemon I'm impressed with is
with a whopping 80% winratio, which shows that it can really profit from a metagame with Melmetal, Ferrothorn, and Urshifu being around, as it can check them pretty well in an offensive way as it just has to go for its fighting-type stabs or just u-turn out to get in a teammate safely.
Psychic-types such as Slowbro and Tapu Lele make up for great teammates, as they can help with pressuring opposing Pokemon with their utility and offensive presence. I personally think that Zapdos-Galar is a pretty good pokemon currently and I see it used more often in the future, be it in ladder games or in tournament games.
can achieve a pretty good winratio for itself too with 85%, which means Garchomp is pretty useful either as an offensive presence with Swords Dance-Sets or as Tankchomp-variant. Furthermore Garchomp is a solid answer to Pokemon such as Heatran and Regieleki.
Pokemon, which saw more than 1 time usage, but didn't achieve a win for themselves:
Blaziken, Tangrowth, Suicune, Ditto, Kingdra, Glastrier, and Nidoqueen
Standout Team:
StallSucksBro used the same team twice, which contains the Pokemon of:
Quagsire, Melmetal, Toxapex, Skarmory, Blissey, and Clefable
This Rounds Topdog:
What impressed me the most this round of the crown tundra cup is
's Winratio, which clearly shows this Tapu can still be a force in the metagame. It was used 9 times and out of the 9 times it won all games. A 100% winratio clearly shows this mon can still put in work in this metagame.Tapu Lele's Choice-Sets shouldn't be underestimated and can dent holes in the opposing teams pretty easily with its great typing in Psychic and Fairy, which doesn't leave it as vulnerable to dark-types which thrive in the metagame because of Spectriers usage.
Another pokemon I'm impressed with is
with a whopping 80% winratio, which shows that it can really profit from a metagame with Melmetal, Ferrothorn, and Urshifu being around, as it can check them pretty well in an offensive way as it just has to go for its fighting-type stabs or just u-turn out to get in a teammate safely.Psychic-types such as Slowbro and Tapu Lele make up for great teammates, as they can help with pressuring opposing Pokemon with their utility and offensive presence. I personally think that Zapdos-Galar is a pretty good pokemon currently and I see it used more often in the future, be it in ladder games or in tournament games.
can achieve a pretty good winratio for itself too with 85%, which means Garchomp is pretty useful either as an offensive presence with Swords Dance-Sets or as Tankchomp-variant. Furthermore Garchomp is a solid answer to Pokemon such as Heatran and Regieleki.Pokemon, which saw more than 1 time usage, but didn't achieve a win for themselves:
Blaziken, Tangrowth, Suicune, Ditto, Kingdra, Glastrier, and Nidoqueen
Standout Team:
StallSucksBro used the same team twice, which contains the Pokemon of:
Quagsire, Melmetal, Toxapex, Skarmory, Blissey, and Clefable
This Rounds Topdog:
Last edited:
80% out of 5 uses is not nearly enough to go off. G-zap certainly isn't a bad pokemon, but when its team wins a total of 4 times in ~70 games you can hardly call that proof of anything; especially not without knowing what those matchups were.Another pokemon I'm impressed with is
One thing that is surprising me is the low usage and low winrate of Tapu Fini. Perhaps this is because of the higher usage of Clefable as a status-immune fairy with better longevity, or because of how poorly it matches up against Toxic Spikes (which was used on 60% of pexes), but compared to how often it's seen on the ladder and the amount of work it can put in there, it's a pretty big surprise to see it struggling like this.
clefable is more of a status absorber, no surprise, its just used differently and fini dosent like status or having lefties being knocked
Some of the usage may partially be in the middle of going from Zyg/Kyurem ban to now so that’s something to consider, although Lele and Chomp are good in their own right for different reasons.
Edit: and obviously some is reflective they were allowed last round and not totally reflective of current trends now and or ladder.
Edit: and obviously some is reflective they were allowed last round and not totally reflective of current trends now and or ladder.
Yeah I was surprised to look at the low winrate too. Tapu Fini (for me) is pretty threatening defensively, and it's ability to run physical or special defensive sets messes me up sometimes. Fairy and Water are also a pretty good typing together.
I love tapu lele and agree it is underrated. Specs does a great job at breaking down teams with steel types that lack recovery (e.g. heatran, magearna, etc.).Round 4 Tundra Cup Usage Stats and Winratios!
What impressed me the most this round of the crown tundra cup is
Tapu Lele's Choice-Sets shouldn't be underestimated and can dent holes in the opposing teams pretty easily with its great typing in Psychic and Fairy, which doesn't leave it as vulnerable to dark-types which thrive in the metagame because of Spectriers usage.
Another pokemon I'm impressed with is
Psychic-types such as Slowbro and Tapu Lele make up for great teammates, as they can help with pressuring opposing Pokemon with their utility and offensive presence. I personally think that Zapdos-Galar is a pretty good pokemon currently and I see it used more often in the future, be it in ladder games or in tournament games.
Pokemon, which saw more than 1 time usage, but didn't achieve a win for themselves:
Blaziken, Tangrowth, Suicune, Ditto, Kingdra, Glastrier, and Nidoqueen
Standout Team:
StallSucksBro used the same team twice, which contains the Pokemon of:
Quagsire, Melmetal, Toxapex, Skarmory, Blissey, and Clefable
This Rounds Topdog:
However, I do not believe using winrate from a sample size of 9 is a good metric for determining whether a pokemon is good or not, as it can be difficult/impossible to tell whether the tapu lele user would've won had they used a different pokemon/team instead. In other words, does tapu lele have a good winrate because the players using them are better, or are the players winning because of tapu lele (which would imply the mon is good)? Sometimes you can just get lucky and the mon gets a good matchup (that it would not otherwise consistently get) in a few games. Usually these counterfactuals are accounted for with a larger sample size. I don't think there's anything wrong with using winrates as a discussion kickstarter, but I've seen too many people try to make conclusions based on tournament winrates from a small sample size. This goes for the Tapu Fini discussion above too.
Just so this post doesn't turn into a rant from a grumpy, jaded statistician, I am interested to see whether Nature's Madness picks up as an option on Tapu Lele. I have seen this move a few times on ladder. Being able to significantly weaken no-recovery steels is huge, and it can also reliably outdamage regenerator from slowking, forcing it to either slack off, disrupting a potential subsequent FuturePort combo, or take damage that sticks past the Regenerator healing. I am not sure how easy it is to slap on, but it can potentially be worth on some teams - for example, chunking heatran so shift gear magearna can sweep late-game. Curious to know what you guys think.
I'd just like to add that melmetal probably doesn't even want to destroy some terrains, especially grassy terrain since that helps with chip that non lefty variants have, and probably misty terrain too so you don't get randomly burned from a scald or flame body or something while you are punching stuff.
So I've played around with Zygarde 10% and CB + Teleport/Volt-Turn support (and Future Sight) is a deadly combination that puts in a lot of work. The speedier Zydog also really appreciates that speed stat since it outspeeds a wider pool of Pokemon than it's 50% counterpart did. I always ran Adamant and I never really missed the Jolly nature. I find that it appreciates the slight power increase a lot more since you want to hit as hard as you possibly can. With Adamant you still hit a good speed tier of 329. You outspeed base 100s and naturally bluff the Jolly nature. A lot of teams sole ground counter is a Flying or Levitate Pokemon ever since Zygarde got banned so Zydog takes full advantage of this. But yeah use Zydog.
I also played around with a Sub Coil set with screens support and I got mixed results. There were match ups where I straight up made people forfeit and match ups where I wished I had just brought a CB Zydog. Even though behinds screens you got a Zydog that is as bulky as Zygarde you still don't have 101 HP substitutes and you still get blown back by stuff like Surging Strikes and Wicked Blow where as Zygarde could tank those and hit back with a Glare. So Zydog Coil + Screens is not a terrible Zygarde replacement but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're looking to have fun.
I also played around with a Sub Coil set with screens support and I got mixed results. There were match ups where I straight up made people forfeit and match ups where I wished I had just brought a CB Zydog. Even though behinds screens you got a Zydog that is as bulky as Zygarde you still don't have 101 HP substitutes and you still get blown back by stuff like Surging Strikes and Wicked Blow where as Zygarde could tank those and hit back with a Glare. So Zydog Coil + Screens is not a terrible Zygarde replacement but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're looking to have fun.
So Spectrier 
is either :
1. Sub Plot w/ 2 attacks
2. Greedy Sub Plot with wisp and hex
3. Sub CM with two attacks
4. Specs with ball/hex/wisp
5. Scarf with ball/hex/wisp
That's pretty much it right? I wanted to offer options to someone who asked me for Spectrier meta sets. I was thinking Double Dance (Agility + Nasty Plot) could have it's merit but I don't really see it anywhere.
is either :1. Sub Plot w/ 2 attacks
2. Greedy Sub Plot with wisp and hex
3. Sub CM with two attacks
4. Specs with ball/hex/wisp
5. Scarf with ball/hex/wisp
That's pretty much it right? I wanted to offer options to someone who asked me for Spectrier meta sets. I was thinking Double Dance (Agility + Nasty Plot) could have it's merit but I don't really see it anywhere.