Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

peng

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But wouldn't U-Turn be a clear improvement over Teleport for most of those mons? Calls for banning Tele strike me as being like banning Arena Trap without banning Shadow Tag. Either ban the broken mons, or ban all pivot moves(Tele, Baton Pass, U-Turn, Volt Switch). Teleport's problem has more to do with distribution than with the move itself being unusually good.
U-turn, Flip Turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass, Teleport all have nuances that make them functionally quite different, certainly moreso than Arena Trap vs Shadow Tag (where Tag is objectively superior). The comparison is probably more on par with something like Rapid Spin vs Defog, which perform similar functions but distinct enough to prevent them being simply interchangable.

U-turn and Flip turn both trigger Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet. Flip Turn also fails against Water Absorb / Dry Skin / Storm Drain. Volt Switch fails against Ground-types and Lightningrod. This means they all have counterplay that can be triggered by just switching something into them. Further, +0 priority means that the user still has to actually make sure the incoming Pokemon gets in safely and not crippled by a slower foe, the best example of this being scald / knock Toxapex. U-turning on Toxapex to bring in Nidoking, for example, is not particularly safe.

Teleport is not punishable in the same way. Taunting Clefable requires 2 turns (1 turn to switch in the Taunter and another to actually use it) but if it Teleports on turn 1 then you've thrown momentum. It also doesn't trigger contact abilities, doesn't fail vs some abilities / types, and moves last so always gives the upper hand. Always moving last is a huge improvement against Toxapex.

There are certainly situations where the attacking pivoting options are better e.g. basically every fast offensive Pokemon, things that get STAB on them etc. However, none of Clefable / Blissey / Slowbro would use U-turn if they got it, the ability to generate 100% safe switches with no "passive" counterplay is too good to pass up.

Not going to comment in depth on whether Teleport is busted or not. It just very significantly changes the way we play Pokemon. In every other generation, these slow, passive Pokemon are momentum sinks that are heavily punishable, but in Gen 8 everything has become a pivot. Its not to my taste but tough to argue its actually broken rather than just personally unenjoyable.
 
images (3).jpeg

The problems with Blaziken and what makes it's life so difficult:

1. It's base speed stat turn 1 is below average for a frail offensive Pokemon.

2. There is no shortage of ridiculously fast Pokemon in the tier and priority. Let's see there's:

On rain teams you have:
Urshifu-R: Aqua Jetter
Barraskewda: Even at +3 you are still outsped because of it's speed of over 700 under rain.
Kingdra
The rare Seismitoad
The rare Crawdaunt and Azumarill who pack Aqua Jet


On sand you have:
Excadrill
Dracozolt


Other fast Pokemon that still out speed it after a boost:
Hawlucha
Regieleki
Pheromosa
Spectrier
(scarf variant)
Scarf Zapdos G
Scarf Kartana

Annoying Pokemon for Blaziken:
Rillaboom
Toxapex
Slowbro
Landorus-T
Garchomp
Tapu Fini
Moltres
Swampert


Annoying items:
Rocky Helmet

Naturally faster Pokemon that makes it hard for Blaziken to set up an SD:
Tornadus-T
Urshifu S
Latios
and Latias
Dragapult
Tapu Koko
Cinderace


Other not so common problematic mons but will run to into them eventually:
Venusaur in sun
Hippowdon
Suicune
Alakazam
Mymikyu
Ditto
Blacephalon
Quagsire

Unaware Clefable

Blaziken reminds me a lot of Mew. Uber for the first 4 gens and now often finds itself in UU. I definitely see Blaziken heading to UU soon. There are other sets that have appeared on Youtube like Protective Pads + Reversal with Tapu Lele's terrain extender + Screens which can definitely put in work in some scenarios but that's a lot of support and I don't think it's going to take off enough for Blaziken to ever become a serious issue. Choice Band sets can catch people off guard and does put in work sometimes but I'm not exactly a fan of that and it's outclassed by better CB users in the tier. Protect + 3 attacks is a cool set and I find that set to be the most consistent for Blaziken but that has problems against fat and only works as a late game cleaner. Sets with Defog are more of a meme which is cool if your team is struggling to fit in an emergency hazard removal but wouldn't use it on any serious team.

Conclusion: I rate Blaziken a 4/10 in terms of performance in the OU metagame.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
ok... so as a person that actually has used blazekin too great sucess in the metagame... i think the issue is that ur not using the right sets or just expecting it to sweep on everything. speed boost is a semi-broken ability, where you can easily just for switches and set up for free. There are a plethora of sets you can use and team support you can give it to make sure that works perfectly. ill give you an example

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1231347845-sko0sejj0j3pdnu6lz26udmdyhbacpdpw


This is a pretty fire set on its own and sweeps a good portion of teams if given the chance. idk why yall say blaze is frail, it i can live a large amount of hits and get a workup/swords dance in pretty easily. At +1 it secures more than enough okoes especially if u run mixed or special. hell half of ur mons that u said are a problem for blazekin arent if u do so. even shit like band hits dumb hard and secures many kos. what exactly are yalls issues with it? it has a large variety of moves that you can support it with on ur team. and getting speed boosts and boosts are super easy
 
ok... so as a person that actually has used blazekin too great sucess in the metagame... i think the issue is that ur not using the right sets or just expecting it to sweep on everything. speed boost is a semi-broken ability, where you can easily just for switches and set up for free. There are a plethora of sets you can use and team support you can give it to make sure that works perfectly. ill give you an example

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1231347845-sko0sejj0j3pdnu6lz26udmdyhbacpdpw


This is a pretty fire set on its own and sweeps a good portion of teams if given the chance. idk why yall say blaze is frail, it i can live a large amount of hits and get a workup/swords dance in pretty easily. At +1 it secures more than enough okoes especially if u run mixed or special. hell half of ur mons that u said are a problem for blaziken arent if u do so. even shit like band hits dumb hard and secures many kos. what exactly are yalls issues with it? it has a large variety of moves that you can support it with on ur team. and getting speed boosts and boosts are super easy
Holy shit that was fire. I can totally respect the creativeness of that set. It still doesn't really change my opinion of it though. While those sets are really fun it relies a bit on the surprise factor and Blaziken has one of the worst case of 4MSS I've ever seen . If you sweep someone and face them again on the ladder you find yourself in an awkward position because they already know your sets. And Blaziken is not terrible but unless it's one of your favorites (it's definitely one of mine) it faces competition for a teamslot in my opinion.
 
Where are people getting the idea that I was suggesting to ban the slow twins? Jesus, I'm gonna have to spell it out. The slow twins are absolutely NOT broken. They have a useful role in the game, especially Slowbro as it has the bulk to shrug off the many earthquakes, which eases the pressure on someone like Buzzwall so it can focus on other stuff like Kartana or Urshifu. What I am suggesting is banning future sight and future sight only, nothing more, nothing less, assuming that people don't want complex bans

The reason I say this is, as some have mentioned, future sight + teleport + regenerator makes for one hell of a combination which strong wall breakers like Blaziken or Urshifu can take advantage of as I mentioned before, since they force out nearly everything that doesn't mind the future sight. Urshifu in particular abuses this incredibly hard since it is common and protect does nothing against it. So, let's break down that combination. Banning regenerator is completely out of the question. Why should innocents like Amoonguss or Tangrowth, both of which are not even ou but are somewhat usable, instantly lose any sense of viability just because of the slow twins? Banning teleport would NOT solve anything. A slow twin can simply use future sight then switch out manually to Urshifu or Blaziken, or any powerful wall breakers really like Garchomp. Even if you use protect to block the future sight, it would just end up giving a free boost to the breaker in question and I'm not even sure if protect actually blocks future sight. Either way, it is a lose lose situation for the one on the sight's receiving end. That only leaves future sight as the remaining sus. If it does get banned, all the pokemon who use it like Gardevoir, slow twins and whoever else, do not instantly lose their viability in any tier whatsoever. Future sight is just another tool to choose from the shed which they can take IF they really want it

Now, if the slow twins are banned, then many physical breakers will have their jobs much easier. Blaziken no longer has to run thunder punch and just has to use earthquake to deal with Toxapex. Urshifu will most likely remain the same as the sight is just added power to its absolute bullshit wicked blow while sd Garchomp and Landorus will have one less annoyance to deal with. Buzzwall would probably get overwhelmed since it now has to deal with the ground types as well as Urshifu as Toxapex cannot reliably handle them and that is just to name a few pokemon in the game

So, as I mentioned before, it now comes to a choice. Either ban the slow twins, or just future sight unless you want some random complex ban. Bottomline, slow twins are not broken, future sight on its own is not broken but future sight + fighting type is as it makes playing around the incoming sight rather tricky and it puts you into a lose lose situation as even if you send out a pokemon faster than the opposing dark type, future sight will take a chunk of hp from it. I already made my stand and I think future sight should be banned. Sure, not everybody uses it but it is difficult to play with unless the future sight user doesn't have a fighting type teammate
You're fixated on the facet that most of us do not deem to be the problem. You even almost go so far as to say it yourself, "future sight on its own is not broken but future sight + fighting type," it has nothing to do with slowbro and nothing to do with future sight. It's about the overpowered breakers that can abuse the tools and that can kill FS switchins.

Not to mention all the times its been said over and over here 'we ban pokemon,' and you continue to ignore the effects this would have on lower tiers. And another reminder, finch or ou council or whoever in this thread can't just change site-wide tiering policy on a whim to ban one move from overused and leave it legal in every tier below.
 
For me it feels like we’re getting the focus wrong. Future Sight is support, just like Rapid Spin, Defog or Spikes stacking. You’re building your team to support your hard-hitters as best you can. They’re taking advantage of the support extremely well because they’re so good.

On the other hand, the Slow twins are uniquely adept at the support they’re providing. But the support isn’t broken, it’s the abusers taking such good advantage of it.

Like UU had both Slow twins at different times and handled Future Port support perfectly well. Because the abusers just weren’t as good as OU.

It’s very chicken and egg. Are the Slow twins breaking the abusers or are the abusers breaking the Slow twins.
 
Are the moves that some Regional Forms learn via transfer from Go to Home (such as Alola Ninetales learning Fire moves) allowed? Or no since this is a glitch?
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Are the moves that some Regional Forms learn via transfer from Go to Home (such as Alola Ninetales learning Fire moves) allowed? Or no since this is a glitch?
Hey, these moves are illegal since they are a glitch in Pokemon Go and therefore can't be used in Pokemon Showdown as they are deemed illegal when you try to transfer them over to Home. If you have any other questions, I would recommend, asking them here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-answers-thread.3656259/page-82#post-8667525 as this thread which I've linked is reserved for simples questions and simple answers. Hopefully that helped.
 
Guess this also tackles the concerns of blunder/others, but: If you make a separate ladder, then the initial ladder becomes less popular, thus compromising usage statistics, altering perceptions on the metagame, and increasing the significance of small sample sizes of games on the entire metagame. The separate ladder also never gains enough traction for pretty obvious reasons: we're not gaining many more players, but we're splitting the ladder in half. We would need to nearly double the amount of players to have a second remotely representative ladder. It's all about sample size and unless the second ladder would draw in thousands of new people, then it would simply not make sense and it would cause more harm than good
This runs into all of the same problems I outlined above about splintering the ladder -- we still have the same number of players with twice as many ladders, but also there would be no incentive to ladder if there were no rankings or points. And besides, having everything unranked is a disaster as you cannot gain much tangible evidence off of the ladder about the metagame until 1600+ish as is (and that's being generous). The odds of two people who actually know what they are doing getting each other on that ladder would be so slim that it would just be a complete waste of resources.

A lot of this depends on how the ladder is operated and how the data from it is used. I get the concern of feeling like you need to split the user base in half to gather real representative data but what evidence validates this concern for the ladder? Many companies run tests with smaller focus groups to help aid in discussion of how change should happen with way larger user bases than the main ladder. This isn't really that different. Sure getting data from the entire user base would be ideal but that's not always going to be the best way to validate something as by nature it disrupts the entire user base and is generally a slow process. We see this with suspect tests now.

There are also many things you can do to alleviate some of the concerns you have with how a test ladder interacts with the main ladder. You can place restrictions on the test ladder to curb the amount of players allowed at one time as one example. Another being that only players/accounts that reach 1600 on the main ladder are able to participate on the test ladder etc... and imo there's nothing wrong with continuing to have a ranking or points on this ladder if you feel that is what promotes incentive to play.
 

Finchinator

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A lot of this depends on how the ladder is operated and how the data from it is used. I get the concern of feeling like you need to split the user base in half to gather real representative data but what evidence validates this concern?
There used to be ladder splinters for suspects (see: regular ladder and suspect ladder) and what I outlined pretty much was the reality. I'm going to assume that is enough "evidence" to "validate" this concern despite the logistical issues being clear-cut regardless.

Many companies run tests with smaller focus groups to help aid in discussion of how change should happen. This isn't really that different.
This is night-and-day different. Companies have lots of money and the ability to allocate their resources differently whereas this is just an online Pokemon simulator ran by volunteers, many companies deal with consumption/purchase of necessities whereas competitive Pokemon is not a necessity and has a naturally fluctuating playerbase due to it largely being a hobby for adolescents, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. On a purely conceptual level, perhaps you can draw some parallels, but that's literally it. When you get into the details and the actual implications of each decision, it becomes abundantly clear that you're comparing apples and oranges.

Sure getting data from the entire user base would be ideal but that's not always going to be the best way to validate something as by nature it disrupts the entire user base and is generally a slow process. We see this with suspect tests now.
I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. Suspect tests are fully intended to not get data from the entire user base. They are intended to get data from those qualified enough to get informed opinions on the metagame. But the ladder itself cannot exist properly without a large enough user base, including those not necessarily qualified. I do not think you know what you are talking about and I believe you are just digging your hole deeper now.

I feel like only a small handful of the posters in this thread can actually engage on this topic in a reasonable sense and seeing as this is not discussion of the actual metagame, but rather some prospective tiering proposal, and it is getting super repetitive, I would much prefer this being addressed in PMs than in this thread where it is and has been off-topic. My PMs are always open and I can easily forward things to the rest of the council or others necessary.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
t
Holy shit that was fire. I can totally respect the creativeness of that set. It still doesn't really change my opinion of it though. While those sets are really fun it relies a bit on the surprise factor and Blaziken has one of the worst case of 4MSS I've ever seen . If you sweep someone and face them again on the ladder you find yourself in an awkward position because they already know your sets. And Blaziken is not terrible but unless it's one of your favorites (it's definitely one of mine) it faces competition for a teamslot in my opinion.
this was in the 2000s lmao. and this set has worked against the same people a lot. it's really easy to sweep with team support because powering up is dumb easy
 
I think the idea of an experimental ladder is kind of a paradox: Either you have a rated ladder that gets a large section of the playerbase (thus “splintering” the OU playerbase) or you have some sort of unrated ladder that does not get a large section of the playerbase and is therefore not accurate.

I’m not necessarily in favor of this, but logically speaking, the best compromise would be having a rated experimental ladder that only lasts for a week or two; this would basically be like the old version of suspect tests but without the suspect test lol. Personally I’d rather just do a suspect test at that point, but perhaps there could eventually be some niche case where this makes sense
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
i do this for work and it's called A/B testing or just experiments. I can provide many resources on how to implement this as I do work in tech and have done many of these types of things before. It's not that hard to implement

I think the idea of an experimental ladder is kind of a paradox: Either you have a rated ladder that gets a large section of the playerbase (thus “splintering” the OU playerbase) or you have some sort of unrated ladder that does not get a large section of the playerbase and is therefore not accurate.

I’m not necessarily in favor of this, but logically speaking, the best compromise would be having a rated experimental ladder that only lasts for a week or two; this would basically be like the old version of suspect tests but without the suspect test lol. Personally I’d rather just do a suspect test at that point, but perhaps there could eventually be some niche case where this makes sense
this is exactly what it does. you give a limited number of participants (usually 5-10%) access to a different version
 
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Blaziken's Place in the Metagame

Hi guys, its me, I want to talk about Blaziken and its place in the metagame. Well, that's me being too nice, I want to go over the flaws of Blaziken, why I hate it using it so much and why its an overall disappointing Pokemon. This is pretty insane to way considering that its banned ever since gen 5 and now I think, and most of the playerbase thinks that it isn't close to broken, I mean the overwhelming amount of people who voted 1 on this Pokemon compared to the rest is insane. However they don't think its broken, however I don't think its broken or a very good Pokemon, I find it to be mediocre if anything. I've tried a lot of things outside of SD cause I don't find that good and the things I tried to use with this Pokemon are even worse. So I'm going go over exactly why I think its a disappointing Pokemon.

I. What changed for it from the transition?

Quite a lot of things happened for it, which isn't a good thing in its favour I feel. So in gen 7, there was no Teleport, no Heavy-Duty Boots and there were Z-Moves. What this meant is that Blaziken can very easily pull off a sweep because with hazards up, none of the Pokemon that check it now would stand up to it, especially Slowbro, which is common now. Whereas they are all here now, Heavy-Duty Boots and Teleport especially making defensive teams even better and with no Z-Moves and HP its pretty tough for it to legitimately overwhelm teams and I'll go over why.

II. Why I think Blaziken is just not that good right now.

Okay so my next point, Blaziken got nerfed indirectly quite a lot despite getting new good moves in CC and U-turn. So the first thing about this Pokemon is that it is pretty inconsistent, with Blaziken the mon basically kills itself trying to sweep and it doesn't sweep most of the time because its typing and bulk can never really let this Pokemon in and unlike Pheromosa, this Pokemon doesn't even force switches because its offensive typing is not all that threatening anymore. Fire / Fighting alone gets walled by Moltres, Slowbro, Latios and Toxapex and these are top tier Pokemon right now, so it needs to rely on its coverage in order to actually be threatening, and what's even worse is that Blaziken is neither really that strong nor does it have good versatility. Its a pretty one-dimensional Pokemon in what it can do and that in my opinion is the biggest flaw with Blaziken, its only viable set is really SD and because of that teams can easily just prevent the sweep because players know exactly what Blaziken is going to do. The versatility isn't there especially considering that its movepool isn't that good, especially with the lack of HP. So with all that rambling about why Blaziken sucks so bad, I'm going to go over what I TRIED to use to make Blaziken work and they all sounded so much better on paper cause in practice they just were not it chief.

III. What other sets I attempted to use on it.

So I was trying to think of a set other than SD to make work since I didn't like SD at all, so here are 2 that I made that I tried to make work, I tried to use Choice Band Blaziken, and Toxic + Protect Blaziken. So I'm going to explain both. Spoiler alert, neither of them worked at all.


Blaziken @ Choice Band
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- U-turn

So first set I tried to use was Choice Band. I thought that this would be the best set on Blaziken for some reason, because at that time I thought damn, a powerful wallbreaker that can also boost its Speed every turn? Amazing, except not really because like I said, its STABs are pretty easy to around and any good defensive structure can easily prevent this Blaziken set from ever actually doing anything, so I used this for a bit and I even tried to pair this with Future Sight Slowbro but it just did not work at all because even with a Future Sight up its pretty easy to pivot around and against so many teams the only thing its really doing is spamming U-turn, I mean there is a few games where it did something good I guess because it just wasn't consistent whatsoever unfortunately.

Blaziken @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Protect
- U-turn

This is a more of an offensive pivot like, Dragapult and Pheromosa like kind of set where after a protect its able to outspeed a vast majority of the tier which allows it to get a much more riskless U-turn off, but unlike Dragapult however, its STAB combo isn't as spammable and unlike Pheromosa, it needs to waste a moveslot to outspeed a lot of the tier, whereas Pheromosa outspeeds basically everything already. Another problem with this set most of the Pokemon that beat the other sets beat this and even more Pokemon that Blaziken is supposed to beat are able to wall this set pretty easily. Blissey, Clefable and Heatran are the biggest examples, all are outstanding in the metagame, and all can now just beat it. I don't think is more to be said.

====

Hope you enjoyed me trashing on Blaziken and talking about why I don't like it whatsoever. I would like to know your thoughts on it too. Where do you think it is in the metagame? Do you think its good / bad? Do you think this Pokemon can become a problem in the future? To answer that question myself I'm honestly convinced that it won't be unless someone makes a whole new revolutionary set that makes this Pokemon insanely threatening. But idk about you. Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for reading! :blobthumbsup:
This might not be the best idea, but I'm kinda surprised no one's tried experimenting with special (or mixed) attacking blaziken sets. It has solid base 110 special attack and plenty of good special fire stabs like flamethrower, fire blast and overheat. While its fighting stabs aren't as good, it does have aura sphere and focus blast a well as vacuum wave for priority. It also has scorching sands for ground coverage and solar beam if you want to use it on a sun team. The big disadvantage is that it can't run sd, but work up is better than nothing. You can run fire blast and not have to worry about flare blitz recoil. I don't think special attacking sets are necessarily better than the standard sets, but it has a serious element of surprise and I think it's worth trying out.
 
It's kind of funny that we're calling suspect tests "tests" in the sense that they're some kind of scientific analysis. They aren't lol. There's no requirement to use the Pokemon in question, or even play against it. You just need to play ~45 games with an extremely high win rate over two weeks. There's nothing to "test" as unless a Pokemon is being unbanned like Cinderace as there's no meta without the Pokemon to compare it to. If we hypothetically test Slowbro (just an example) we don't know what the meta looks like without it so all we're "testing" is if a player can get the required ladder score in 2 weeks. There's no control group.

A second ladder is probably the best way to test what the meta would look like with or without a Pokemon and could give us some insight to if a mon makes life better or worse. Claims that it would "split" the ladder are a joke as the number of people who actually vote are counted in the dozens while the number of games player in OU are counted in the upper hundreds of thousands, if not millions. I can't think of a single real logical reason why we don't have a suspect test ladder except if that ladder has cripplingly low play rate or if there's technical difficulties.

If Smogon wants to treat Pokemon as a science then they can, and should, via control and experimental ladders. As it is suspect tests are good enough but we have to accept that nothing is being "tested", we're just waiting 2 weeks for people to ladder and make their thoughts and feelings official policy. Anyone participating in a "test" has likely already experienced the Pokemon in question for weeks or months and has long ago formulated their opinion. If we really want a serious test we should have a second ladder to compare the effects of a ban / unban to.
 
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Finchinator

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OU Leader
A suspect is conducted to determine if the subject of the suspect is banworthy or not, not if the post-suspect metagame is immediately better than the metagame with the suspect. The premise of the above post and others in this thread are missing that point entirely.

Something a lot of people are forgetting is the point of suspects is not to vote for one metagame or another -- i.e: the metagame with the suspect vs the metagame without it. The point of a suspect is to vote on if a Pokemon is banworthy (see: broken or uncompetitive) or not. I feel like the root of a lot of the "we need a second ladder" arguments are completely missing this point, too.

Playing a metagame without a suspect may be worse initially due to hectic metagame developments stemming from the subject of the suspect being removed, but that just means potential other supects and the tier developing (over the following days/weeks/potentially months) can improve it. The metagame got worse after we banned Genesect and Naganadel initially because people realized how strong other potentially problematic Pokemon were and did not have to prepare for them -- when they were in the tier, it was bad, but everyone just spammed Heatran. Within a week it settled a little and then with another round of quickbans, it got to a point of relative balance (still not there yet, but it's obviously much better overall). This is an extreme example, but the point still stands: the metagame without the suspect should not be very relevant to how someone views the suspect. We vote on the Pokemon, not the entire metagame and theoretical changes. This, by extension, would just be allowing theorymon, something that is very explicitly not allowed.
 
Is future sight really a problem at all? Honestly it seems like strictly an Urshifu issue, and not even one that deviates much from the typical issues inherent to Urshifu

Clicking Future Sight on a turn is an invitation for something to switch in on you, and to hit you twice if you’re intending to click teleport afterwards. This is obviously not completely without risk; Bro can click Scald instead of Future Sight. It can also click Teleport immediately. But the point is remember that Bro is sitting as a do-nothing agent for two turns that can be acted aggressively against if you don’t make that prediction. There is no guarantee the Bro player will even have a safe chance to click teleport, they may be forced to hard switch into a mon after one of numerous aggressive threats (spectrier, urshifu, mosa, pult) come in on the sight turn, and some of those threats can proceed to reclaim momentum.

We’re really only talking about this because Urshifu coming in on that teleport threatens everything that tanks Sight with its two STABS, and proceeds to blow the entire meta back with ease from this position without having to predict jack, unless the opponent has a healthy Mandibuzz.

And the thing is Urshifu mostly does this anyway when banded; this just lets it rock LO or whatever else and still erase the entire tier, often letting it ignore the few things left floating around that otherwise check it, like Clef and Wole, and get better mileage out of Sucker.

Do you guys have particularly compelling cases of mons outside of Urshifu, or Spectrier, two mons already soon to be up for suspect on their own merits already, mind you, who bust out as not good, but broken and unreasonable under Sight pressure? I don’t buy Blaziken at all so far, and that’s the other name I was mostly seeing.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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Got ninja'd by Finch, who said basically what I'm about to say, but I'd already started typing so damned if I'm gonna stop.

Instead of continuing this asinine debate about ladder activity (one ladder is objectively better than two for activity; there isn't really an argument here) I'm just gonna comment on the practical side of why we don't need a second ladder for suspect tests. The aim of a suspect test is not to see what the metagame would be like without something else, because frankly, what the metagame looks like with it gone doesn't matter. The aim of a suspect test is simply an attempt to pass a change to the current metagame, and in the case of removal, you do not need to know what the endgame of said removal is—basing a decision on a post-ban format violates the broken-checks-broken fallacy of subjective tiering.
It's kind of funny that we're calling suspect tests "tests" in the sense that they're some kind of scientific analysis. They aren't lol.
This is a weird semantic tangent that I probably shouldn't engage with simply on the basis that semantic arguments are largely pointless, but it's just completely off-base so I'm gonna respond to it anyway. You could argue that a suspect test is far closer to the education/qualification definition of "test," which is "to evaluate someone's proficiency or knowledge by means of a test or examination." Sound familiar? Not that this should matter though. They're called "suspect tests" for no reason other than that it's what they were called back in generation 4 or whenever the suspect process was initially drafted—we could call it "voter vetting" or whatever else and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
 
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Blaziken's Place in the Metagame

Hi guys, its me, I want to talk about Blaziken and its place in the metagame. Well, that's me being too nice, I want to go over the flaws of Blaziken, why I hate it using it so much and why its an overall disappointing Pokemon. This is pretty insane to way considering that its banned ever since gen 5 and now I think, and most of the playerbase thinks that it isn't close to broken, I mean the overwhelming amount of people who voted 1 on this Pokemon compared to the rest is insane. However they don't think its broken, however I don't think its broken or a very good Pokemon, I find it to be mediocre if anything. I've tried a lot of things outside of SD cause I don't find that good and the things I tried to use with this Pokemon are even worse. So I'm going go over exactly why I think its a disappointing Pokemon.

I. What changed for it from the transition?

Quite a lot of things happened for it, which isn't a good thing in its favour I feel. So in gen 7, there was no Teleport, no Heavy-Duty Boots and there were Z-Moves. What this meant is that Blaziken can very easily pull off a sweep because with hazards up, none of the Pokemon that check it now would stand up to it, especially Slowbro, which is common now. Whereas they are all here now, Heavy-Duty Boots and Teleport especially making defensive teams even better and with no Z-Moves and HP its pretty tough for it to legitimately overwhelm teams and I'll go over why.

II. Why I think Blaziken is just not that good right now.

Okay so my next point, Blaziken got nerfed indirectly quite a lot despite getting new good moves in CC and U-turn. So the first thing about this Pokemon is that it is pretty inconsistent, with Blaziken the mon basically kills itself trying to sweep and it doesn't sweep most of the time because its typing and bulk can never really let this Pokemon in and unlike Pheromosa, this Pokemon doesn't even force switches because its offensive typing is not all that threatening anymore. Fire / Fighting alone gets walled by Moltres, Slowbro, Latios and Toxapex and these are top tier Pokemon right now, so it needs to rely on its coverage in order to actually be threatening, and what's even worse is that Blaziken is neither really that strong nor does it have good versatility. Its a pretty one-dimensional Pokemon in what it can do and that in my opinion is the biggest flaw with Blaziken, its only viable set is really SD and because of that teams can easily just prevent the sweep because players know exactly what Blaziken is going to do. The versatility isn't there especially considering that its movepool isn't that good, especially with the lack of HP. So with all that rambling about why Blaziken sucks so bad, I'm going to go over what I TRIED to use to make Blaziken work and they all sounded so much better on paper cause in practice they just were not it chief.

III. What other sets I attempted to use on it.

So I was trying to think of a set other than SD to make work since I didn't like SD at all, so here are 2 that I made that I tried to make work, I tried to use Choice Band Blaziken, and Toxic + Protect Blaziken. So I'm going to explain both. Spoiler alert, neither of them worked at all.


Blaziken @ Choice Band
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- U-turn

So first set I tried to use was Choice Band. I thought that this would be the best set on Blaziken for some reason, because at that time I thought damn, a powerful wallbreaker that can also boost its Speed every turn? Amazing, except not really because like I said, its STABs are pretty easy to around and any good defensive structure can easily prevent this Blaziken set from ever actually doing anything, so I used this for a bit and I even tried to pair this with Future Sight Slowbro but it just did not work at all because even with a Future Sight up its pretty easy to pivot around and against so many teams the only thing its really doing is spamming U-turn, I mean there is a few games where it did something good I guess because it just wasn't consistent whatsoever unfortunately.

Blaziken @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Protect
- U-turn

This is a more of an offensive pivot like, Dragapult and Pheromosa like kind of set where after a protect its able to outspeed a vast majority of the tier which allows it to get a much more riskless U-turn off, but unlike Dragapult however, its STAB combo isn't as spammable and unlike Pheromosa, it needs to waste a moveslot to outspeed a lot of the tier, whereas Pheromosa outspeeds basically everything already. Another problem with this set most of the Pokemon that beat the other sets beat this and even more Pokemon that Blaziken is supposed to beat are able to wall this set pretty easily. Blissey, Clefable and Heatran are the biggest examples, all are outstanding in the metagame, and all can now just beat it. I don't think is more to be said.

====

Hope you enjoyed me trashing on Blaziken and talking about why I don't like it whatsoever. I would like to know your thoughts on it too. Where do you think it is in the metagame? Do you think its good / bad? Do you think this Pokemon can become a problem in the future? To answer that question myself I'm honestly convinced that it won't be unless someone makes a whole new revolutionary set that makes this Pokemon insanely threatening. But idk about you. Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for reading! :blobthumbsup:
Blaziken @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Blaze Kick

I have been running Turn 1 Swords Dance Focus Sash Blaziken. Unless it's Lando, I stay and SD always. I love any set that makes the opponent feel like "this doesn't make sense, why did he do it!?" and then I get the kill on pex and there's snowball potential.
FEEL THE CHAOS OF THE 8TH GEN´S META OF A GAME MADE FOR CHILDREN :blobastonished:
 
:Tyranitar: and its specially defensive set are doing really well right now. Aside from being probably the best counter to Spectrier, it just offers enormous overall utility to a team because it’s an insanely bulky special sponge. Tyranitar pivoting into mons like Dragapult with ease is just the best. As a mon with Thunder Wave it can make up for its general passivity by halting a lot of mons that try to set up in its face. Plus on top of this it’s an incredibly reliable rocks setter thanks to its awesome bulk. I’ll even go ahead and say this is the best Ttar set at the moment with Spectrier running around and it provides so so much utility for a team. Between getting rocks up, countering Spectrier, checking all sorts of special attackers just in general, and spreading status with either Toxic or Thunder Wave, the role compression is truly there and can do so much for a team. I know Ttar has a few other sets that are doing fine right now. CB and SR + 3 attacks are both good sets. I think regardless what set you use you’re getting one of the most sought after things in the meta at the moment: a Spectrier check. I think just having that on your team is already putting you in position to win in this meta and it’s an incredibly important addition for every team.

I saw Gomi bring up :Latios: a page or two back and yeah I have to agree this is most definitely an A or A+ rank mon. What I really like about Latios the most at the moment is it pretty much is one of the best out of the few do-it-all offensive Pokemon in the tier. Between its great Speed tier, absurd STAB combo and strength (draco), reliable recovery, and solid coverage (the fact that ferro loses to it is LOL) you're really getting an incredibly splashable mon on the offensive end. It has so many good sets, I think the best one right now is 3 Attacks + Roost although I think Specs is a ferocious breaker with probably one of the strongest attacks in the entire tier. I’ve actually been using a really uncommon set that Latios used all the way back in ORAS and that’s offensive Defog. What I have found so effective about this set is that Latios is a defogger that still keeps offensive momentum up. Other defoggers like Corvi and Moltres struggle a ton with having to pivot out after Defogging. With Latios the offensive presence is already there so you can do more things than sit like a statue after defogging and you’re forcing so many switches that the opportunities to Defog arise like crazy. On top of this, its solid natural bulk and typing + ability gives it enough bulk to usually Defog away anyways. Basically I run STABs with Defog and Roost holding Soul Dew. Soul Dew has been a kind of wacky item to run since the nerf but the lack of Life Orb recoil + only running STABs which get the bonus from it has actually been pretty solid. It’s essentially the same as having Bisharp hold Black Glasses. Obviously though, this set has come up short for me a few times, mainly in that it struggles against two important hazard setters in the tier which are Heatran and Ferrothorn. Regardless though, later in the game it just forces a lot of switches and has enough bulk to role compress and it has been really useful for me.

Happy thanksgiving by the way folks. Hope everyone gets to watch some football eat turkey have a good day and stay safe.
 
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Regarding Future Sight + Wallbreaker and the fact stall / fat doesn't have any counterplay to it, I would like to share this Blissey set:

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Substitute
- Soft-Boiled

That can actually counter strategies based on Future Sight to break stall teams:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1232027557-6ghcarya8gkqr76gdbcppbwcovtmvw2pw (not an actual game, sorry).

Blissey's 4th move is usually customisable, so I can definitely see that being used on Blissey (on stall).
The only downside is that in this metagame, Blissey likes to run Shadow Ball for Spectrier, but you might find something else for it.

You might as well use Substitute on SpDef Corviknight:

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Body Press
- Roost
- Defog

As it can PP Stall Future Sight using Pressure.
The only thing it really fears is Flamethrower from SpAtk invested Slowbro/king.
 
Blaziken @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Blaze Kick

I have been running Turn 1 Swords Dance Focus Sash Blaziken. Unless it's Lando, I stay and SD always. I love any set that makes the opponent feel like "this doesn't make sense, why did he do it!?" and then I get the kill on pex and there's snowball potential.
FEEL THE CHAOS OF THE 8TH GEN´S META OF A GAME MADE FOR CHILDREN :blobastonished:
If you're running sash you may as well use reversal for the extra power
 
ok... so as a person that actually has used blazekin too great sucess in the metagame... i think the issue is that ur not using the right sets or just expecting it to sweep on everything. speed boost is a semi-broken ability, where you can easily just for switches and set up for free. There are a plethora of sets you can use and team support you can give it to make sure that works perfectly. ill give you an example

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1231347845-sko0sejj0j3pdnu6lz26udmdyhbacpdpw


This is a pretty fire set on its own and sweeps a good portion of teams if given the chance. idk why yall say blaze is frail, it i can live a large amount of hits and get a workup/swords dance in pretty easily. At +1 it secures more than enough okoes especially if u run mixed or special. hell half of ur mons that u said are a problem for blazekin arent if u do so. even shit like band hits dumb hard and secures many kos. what exactly are yalls issues with it? it has a large variety of moves that you can support it with on ur team. and getting speed boosts and boosts are super easy
This set is so good, powerful special moves like solar beam work so well as a lure on stuff like fini. What ev spread and coverage did you use?
 

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