Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I think to figure out the reason that some people are calling for the Slow twins to be looked at you have to examine this gen's meta at large which I'll discuss in a few points:

1. Lower power level+Heavy-Duty Boots:

Heavy-Duty Boots was by far the largest buff defensive pokemon could receive. Hazard chip is so essential to breaking fat teams that last gen stall teams dedicated a full third of their squad(M-Sableye+Defogger) to stop hazards from going up despite pretty much every member of that team being neutral or resistant to them. HDB also allowed mons to become walls that would have been average at that role(Zapdos) or even unviable altogether(Moltres) due to their 2x and 4x Rocks weakness, respectively. Zapdos coming in at 75% meant that the things it was supposed to check were suddenly in a much more propitious position to break through it. Furthermore, these aforementioned walls also love the fact that Z-Moves and Megas are gone. The removal of Z-Moves also means that you can tell if certain offensive mons on your team are going to be deadweight in your matchup, IE even though Volcarona loved the addition of HDB, its currently quite mediocre in OU due to the removal of HP Ground and Psychium Z. Lure sets are all but gone, meaning that you will make pretty much no progress if your opponents check to your offensive mon is kept healthy, which is easier than ever considering the hazard immunity HDB grants. No longer does Zapdos, one of the best Kartana checks, have to fear a +2 Normalium Z blowing it away.

2. Lack of punishment to passive play

The main reason WishPort Clefable was considered so irritating in the earlier stages of the meta was the lack of mons that could force its team into a bad position by it coming in. Clefable switching into a U-Turn from a mon it could theoretically check like Pheromosa used to be open territory for dangerous breakers you dont want to let in for free like SD Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile,or Icium Z Kyurem Black. Similarly,Slowbro last gen invited in Ash-Greninja and also forced you to run a Dark resist that wasnt a water type to avoid stacking weaknesses. Since most special attackers are sub-OU because of Teleport Blissey, Slowbro has much less to worry about this gen than last. The real only physical attacker that can force Slowbro out with the threat of an OHKO is Urshifu, meaning it can pivot in on the vast majority of offensive pokemon(including Pheromosa, as even banded U-Turn is nowhere near close to an OHKO from full). This essentially means that Slowbro is able to fire off risk-free Future Sights all game with little to no opportunity cost. This grants breakers the chip needed to bust through the walls they otherwise couldn't due to everything being immune to hazards. While I don't think this is necessarily a healthy mechanic, it's no more unhealthy than Toxapex being able to stay in on a strong super effective hit like LO Excadrill's EQ, Knocking off its item or attempting to scald burn it, and then switching out to regain the vast majority of the HP it just lost. The only reason that Future Sight Bro is seen as alarming is that it enables offensive mons instead of defensive ones, which brings me to my next point.

3. The winners of the recent bans

With Landorus, Zygarde and Kyurem-B gone(I think Landorus definitely was deserved, Zygarde was a maybe and Kyurem-B should have at least got a suspect test as it only shone against fat teams that it could sub in front of) several defensive mons won:


Pex was victimized by all 3 of the bans for obvious reasons. Even max SpDef couldn't save it from getting OHKO'd from Lando's Earth Power, meaning that Lando got a free Gravity as it switched out to its Flying type teammate. Kyurem used it as setup fodder, and Pex wouldn't dare try to Haze away its boosts for fear of eating a +1 Fusion Bolt. Letting Kyurem get behind a sub for free is especially bad because of Teravolt ignoring abilities like Unaware, meaning that even switching to Bold Clef meant that you were taking a huge chunk of damage. The presence of Kyurem alone in the tier meant that Toxapex was not as splashable as it was pre-DLC, not to say anything about Landorus-I, which pushed its usage down by quite a bit.

This is another mon that loved to see all 3 gone. Lando and Zygarde were two Ground types that it couldn't counter for obvious reasons, and it disliked eating boosted Fusion Bolts from Kyurem as well.



Clefable especially enjoyed the banning of Landorus-I, as its middling bulk really started to show when faced with boosted Sludge Waves and Earth Powers. If running Bold it had a good chance of being OHKOd from full, and if running Calm, it became much more vulnerable to Urshifu later in the game. Unaware Clef was a solid counter to Zygarde, but it was easily worn down from Toxic which Zygarde sometimes carried for Slowbro and Tangrowth. Kyurem-B also threatened the OHKO on even Unaware Clef due to Teravolt and its massive attack stat.


As you can see, the mons that benefitted most from the bans were slow, passive mons. While I don't think Future Sight Bro is the best thing for the meta, chip damage is part of the game and prevents games from going 100+ turns so I think that for the time being it should stay.
 
Is Teleport really significantly better than U-Turn, though? It's tauntable, doesn't do damage, and it's not like -6 priority is that big when the primary users wouldn't be outspeeding anything anyway.
Hot Take:
Pivot moves are an awful concept.
Hypothetically speaking, if there existed a Super TASbot, a super version of a Tool Assisted Superplayer bot that knows the future so it could play multiplayer games perfectly, moves like U-Turn and Teleport give you psuedo versions of that for humans.
You can, the vast majority of the time, get free pseudo double switch wins, with almost no cost and very little retaliation possible (especially U-turn since it will always be used if you’re faster, and your only way of dealing with it are Rocky Bard Skin or to stay in+hope your current Pokemon threatens everything else).
In addition, moves like U-turn and Teleport have made Pokemon that otherwise would be fine Ubers, either because it let the Pokemon come onto the field way too easily, or it made walling it a guessing game (ie. is this Darmanitan-G going to just spam Icicle Crash or will it U-turn into a Pokemon that can beat the Steel/Water/Fire type I sent out?).

I’v held this belief for many years, and even made a lengthy post about pivot/hazard removal a few months ago. So it’s pretty satisfying seeing how people address Teleport now.
 
For some reason a lot of people who like to point fingers at Smogon and certain balanced (but powerful) game mechanics hate :magnemite: Magnemite. I mean seriously look what this thing has that people hate.

  • Threatens Pex-Clef cores with an OHKO and free momentum so apparently thats broken? Idk man
  • Has Volt Switch, which is an obviously broken move that (gasp) gives you momentum ?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!
  • Can often beat teams without an electric immunity, which is very limiting ig
  • Has Teleport which is a broken move and definitely not just a worse version of Volt Switch.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 492-578 (124.8 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 372-440 (122.3 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I mean come on, seriously? U-turn and Volt Switch are in no way inherently broken game mechanics. Sure its hard to punish them but in order for the opponent to really capitalize they have to have the upper hand first. It just makes punishes easier to pull off, which is good because if we didn't have it then you could just switch in buzzwall or something and all of a sudden your losing position is now even again. This is unless they do a risky double switch (can be midgrounded for), but even if they do that the situation would just be rinse and repeat. U-turn makes it so that mistakes and misplays matter more (for a balance team), because making a mistake would send you down the Pivot vortex. U-turn definitely is a good asset for a pokemon, but not something that single-handedly makes it broken. Garmanitan had Perfect coverage and an enormous attack stat due to ability, Cinderace had Libero which limited its safe switch-ins, Genesect also had perfect coverage, set variability, and a free Band/Specs upon switch in, and Pheromosa has incredible attacking and speed stats with great coverage and set variability. Pivoting moves make these mons similar, but in no way do they bring these mons over the edge singlehandedly.
 
For some reason a lot of people who like to point fingers at Smogon and certain balanced (but powerful) game mechanics hate :magnemite: Magnemite. I mean seriously look what this thing has that people hate.

  • Threatens Pex-Clef cores with an OHKO and free momentum so apparently thats broken? Idk man
  • Has Volt Switch, which is an obviously broken move that (gasp) gives you momentum ?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!
  • Can often beat teams without an electric immunity, which is very limiting ig
  • Has Teleport which is a broken move and definitely not just a worse version of Volt Switch.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 492-578 (124.8 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 372-440 (122.3 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I mean come on, seriously? U-turn and Volt Switch are in no way inherently broken game mechanics. Sure its hard to punish them but in order for the opponent to really capitalize they have to have the upper hand first. It just makes punishes easier to pull off, which is good because if we didn't have it then you could just switch in buzzwall or something and all of a sudden your losing position is now even again. This is unless they do a risky double switch (can be midgrounded for), but even if they do that the situation would just be rinse and repeat. U-turn makes it so that mistakes and misplays matter more (for a balance team), because making a mistake would send you down the Pivot vortex. U-turn definitely is a good asset for a pokemon, but not something that single-handedly makes it broken. Garmanitan had Perfect coverage and an enormous attack stat due to ability, Cinderace had Libero which limited its safe switch-ins, Genesect also had perfect coverage, set variability, and a free Band/Specs upon switch in, and Pheromosa has incredible attacking and speed stats with great coverage and set variability. Pivoting moves make these mons similar, but in no way do they bring these mons over the edge singlehandedly.
I don't see Magnemite being worth of usage when Magnezone exists, lol.
 
If you're running sash you may as well use reversal for the extra power
No. You Swords Dance while they set up rocks or do something passive expecting your Protect. Next turn you are free to attack with a +2 chicken that probably has full health or good enough health, so running reversal would be depending on they damaging you. This set is free and chaotic.
 

kosecant

formerly DutroPodoboo
No. You Swords Dance while they set up rocks or do something passive expecting your Protect. Next turn you are free to attack with a +2 chicken that probably has full health or good enough health, so running reversal would be depending on they damaging you. This set is free and chaotic.
Then what's the point of focus sash? You may as well run a better item like LO or protective pads, sash is worthless if you're trying to stay at good hp lol. Blaziken is frail enough that any hit will either send it to sash or make reversal comparable to CC in power, which is why I recommended it
 
Honestly, the nonstop talk about Teleport + Future Sight and the endless pro v anti momentum talks are getting a bit repetitive. So, I'm going to move along to a Pokemon considered egregiously useless by a good number of people that I've managed to actually find a usable niche in OU for (and is honestly really fun to use. Be prepared for yet another "MidnightReaper goes out of his way to make forgotten Pokemon usable in OU" post.

Stonjourner

Now you're probably thinking "an untiered Pokemon in OU? Really?" Yes, because Stonjourner has such a weird selection of stats and tools that give it the slightest of usable niches. Besides, look at that artwork; that cocky little shit has to have something up its sleeve to still have that smile while not even being ranked PU.

To solve the mystery, let's take a look at his stats.

HP:​
100​
Cool​
Attack:​
125​
Great​
Defense:​
135​
Fanfuckin'tastic​
Sp. Atk:​
20​
We just gonna ignore this​
Sp. Def:​
20​
We just gonna ignore this part 2, rock boogaloo​
Speed:​
70
That's ok-wait what?​

Notice something interesting? Usually, Pokemon such as Stonjourner (bulky Rock types) are slow as molasses, but not Stonjourner. Stonjourner actually has a base speed stat of 70 (something that made me double-take when I looked at his design). This means that Stonjourner can utilize a very oddly cobbled together Rock Polish set with very specific utility, and can put his excellent 125 base attack to use (in addition to his wonderful 100 / 135 physical bulk). I will be listing additional options after I talk about the set that I've been using.

I would like to preface before we go further that this set absolutely 100% requires prediction and bluffing your movepool to utilize its strengths. This is meant to be a late-game lure and cleaner that has extremely specific traits and is not a very splashable Pokemon.

Stonjourner @ Life Orb
Ability: Power Spot
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge (I prefer Rock Slide for the accuracy and flinch chance)
- Earthquake
- Heat Crash

Stonjourner having access to a 120 base power Fire move on certain Pokemon and lacking a quad resistance to Water / Grass moves are two unique aspects that give it specific utility in OU. Let's take a look at some damage calculations so you understand the level of Life Orb power on non-STAB moves with Stonjourner.

252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 395-465 (115.8 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 322-382 (88.4 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 221-263 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO (Stronger than Heat Crash in this situation)
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 577-681 (222.7 - 262.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 364-432 (103.4 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

STAB Rock Slide (or Stone Edge) absolutely maims common defensive answers such as Moltres and rounds out coverage nicely with Earthquake. 125 Attack for comparison is the same attack stat as Pokemon like Rillaboom, Marshadow, Zapdos-G and Bisharp. 135 Defense is only 8 lower than the current OU terror Melmetal. The whole purpose of using Stonjourner is as a late-game Rock-type Rock Polish Life Orb cleaner with unexpected coverage and speed. Stonjourner has additional options that are worth mentioning; Heavy Slam is an option to nuke Fairies such as Clefable. It has access to the Iron Defense Body Press combination (Body Press itself is worth note due to Stonjourner's higher Defense). Stealth Rock is also an additional option.

If you can play around Stonjourner's abysmal Special bulk, it has a usable albeit hyper specific niche.
 
Then what's the point of focus sash? You may as well run a better item like LO or protective pads, sash is worthless if you're trying to stay at good hp lol. Blaziken is frail enough that any hit will either send it to sash or make reversal comparable to CC in power, which is why I recommended it
You still don't get it. As you say, Blaziken is frail. I never said the goal was to keep it at high HP. The goal is to run Turn 1 Sash Swords Dance to create as much scenarios where you can punish as possible.
They attack = you live with sash
They don't attack expecting your protect/switch = Free dance

Both end up on a +1 speed +2 Atk Blaziken, running reversal would ruin the second scenario.
 
Gonna ignore the kinda nonsense ban slowbro arguments in favour of highlighting Tapu Lele as a very potent pokemon right now that is a victim of the other insanity in the tier causing it to drop to UU.



Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt/Focus Blast
- Psyshock

70/85/75/130/115/95

Sporting an incredible stat line and insanely powerful stab Tapu Lele is definitely underappreciated in this meta which seems to heavily revolve around bulky offense with faster pivots or slower wallbreakers. It abuses any reliance on regenerator pivots your opponent may have as it force out all 3 of The Slowtwins and Toxapex while forcing chip damage onto the steels for something like a Spectrier to sweep late game. Spectrier also naturally benefiting from the psychic terrain preventing sucker punch is fantastic and makes it for one of the more potent cores around at the moment.

Naturally the abundance of viable steel types in the tier might put you off but Lele tends to just blow straight through them. Spdef Corviknight which is by no means the standard at the moment or honestly even the most used mon in general gets blown up by thunderbolt. Meanwhile defensive needs to be at pretty much max hp to avoid a 2hko from Psychic.

Ferrothorn if max defense can be 2hkod after 3 layers of spikes by psychic or just ohkod with focus blast with no chip damage if you choose to run that instead of thunderbolt.

Magearna if not max hp or assault vest also really struggles to switch in to powered up psychics even with aid of leftovers. Assault vest lacks the leftovers recovery and will be fairly easy to force chip onto on a regular assault vest Magearna structure as they tend to rely heavily on it to pivot into a number of threats meaning overloading is easier while hazard damage racks up.

Heatran is extremely common at the moment but yet even specially defensive Heatran cant switch in to Lele comfortably due to the focus blast possibility, which can okho it after rocks, and psyshock being an 80% chance to 3hko after rocks.

All dark types are either 2hkod or ohkod by one of moonblast, focus blast, or thunderbolt. I wont bother showing calcs in the hide tag for this cause its pretty self explanatory.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 240-284 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 344-406 (97.7 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 126-148 (35.7 - 42%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 127-150 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


For those that have a little more balls than I do or confidence in their ability to force chip damage on to Blissey/not let Clefable set up calm minds you can also just drop Psyshock in favour of running both Thunderbolt and Focus Blast. Focus blast does between 42 and 49 percent to Blissey anyways. In short, lets bring back Lele to OU.
 

MANNAT

Follow me on twitch!
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
- Volt Switch

With the release of the new dlc, koko didn't get access to many of the movepool additions that we thought it would, which resulted in many people dismissed it as a nonthreat, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Specs is both a fantastic offensive pivot as well as a great breaker against the bulky offensive teams that are common in the metagame. Specs gleam 2hkos lando and does much of the same against other grounds, with the other grounds like seis hippo and gastro getting super pressured by specs gk. It has incredible synergy with a ton of top offensive threats with its ability to lure in fat grasses for breakers, pheromosa making a good teammate in particular. It sets up electric terrain to boost shock wave on special sets, and pairs well with physically focused sets by luring in the grasses that mosa fucks up. Many offensive teams are focusing on dealing with electrics by solely having an immunity rather than checking the actual electrics we have, which leads them to get shredded by specs koko. By building and playing with these synergies in mind, even "counters" like amoong just get volted on which maintains your offensive momentum and forces the opponent onto the back foot. There's some other options for sets like a boots pivot set with roost to soft check threats like torn and urshifu or some funky calm mind set to take advantage of stored power, but I haven't really used either of these enough to comment on their effectiveness.
 

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
- Volt Switch

With the release of the new dlc, koko didn't get access to many of the movepool additions that we thought it would, which resulted in many people dismissed it as a nonthreat, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Specs is both a fantastic offensive pivot as well as a great breaker against the bulky offensive teams that are common in the metagame. Specs gleam 2hkos lando and does much of the same against other grounds, with the other grounds like seis hippo and gastro getting super pressured by specs gk. It has incredible synergy with a ton of top offensive threats with its ability to lure in fat grasses for breakers, pheromosa making a good teammate in particular. It sets up electric terrain to boost shock wave on special sets, and pairs well with physically focused sets by luring in the grasses that mosa fucks up. Many offensive teams are focusing on dealing with electrics by solely having an immunity rather than checking the actual electrics we have, which leads them to get shredded by specs koko. By building and playing with these synergies in mind, even "counters" like amoong just get volted on which maintains your offensive momentum and forces the opponent onto the back foot. There's some other options for sets like a boots pivot set with roost to soft check threats like torn and urshifu or some funky calm mind set to take advantage of stored power, but I haven't really used either of these enough to comment on their effectiveness.
Isnt better uturn with the amount of spdef ground types like Exca and swampert?? I mean is better switch out to give free momentum
 
Something I think people are sleeping on is Specs Kyurem.
:bw/kyurem:+ :choice-specs:
Strange Places (Kyurem) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
Here is a full list of OU mons Kyurem does not 2HKO:
- Assault Vest Magearna

That's it. It's a bit prediction reliant, but especially because people usually are not using sturdy Kyurem answers, the payoff is huge. This thing absolutely decimates the common balance cores that are running around right now. Paired with Wish support, it has a nasty habit of sticking around. It has ungodly bulk, and while it does not have fantastic defensive typing, this bulk means it can almost always take even a boosted neutral hit and respond with an OHKO. Especially paired with Wish + Teleport Clef, this thing is an absolute demon.
 
Isnt better uturn with the amount of spdef ground types like Exca and swampert?? I mean is better switch out to give free momentum
Hey friend n_n

As the Tapu Koko is choice specs you want volt switch over uturn for the added power and chip damage it applies. Grass knot beats Swampert or Gastrodon and even mons like Tyranitar in a pinch! Versus excadrill youd be best to predict the switch or make an aggressive play. It is far better for Koko to have volt because of the power. Hope this helped :bloblul:
 
Something I think people are sleeping on is Specs Kyurem.
:bw/kyurem:+ :choice-specs:
Strange Places (Kyurem) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
Here is a full list of OU mons Kyurem does not 2HKO:
- Assault Vest Magearna

That's it. It's a bit prediction reliant, but especially because people usually are not using sturdy Kyurem answers, the payoff is huge. This thing absolutely decimates the common balance cores that are running around right now. Paired with Wish support, it has a nasty habit of sticking around. It has ungodly bulk, and while it does not have fantastic defensive typing, this bulk means it can almost always take even a boosted neutral hit and respond with an OHKO. Especially paired with Wish + Teleport Clef, this thing is an absolute demon.
I’m a big fan of this set. I normally pair it with some sort of offensive ground ie LandoT, Sand, to punch holes in fatty stuff for them or pair it with cleaners for same mentioned reasons. Tspike partners goes go with the set as well.
 
You still don't get it. As you say, Blaziken is frail. I never said the goal was to keep it at high HP. The goal is to run Turn 1 Sash Swords Dance to create as much scenarios where you can punish as possible.
They attack = you live with sash
They don't attack expecting your protect/switch = Free dance

Both end up on a +1 speed +2 Atk Blaziken, running reversal would ruin the second scenario.
Why not Sword Dance until they attack, bringing you to low health?
Considering that this strategy already has a bunch of holes in it with Priority, Rocky Helmet, Sand, Stealth Rock, and sometimes a multi-hit move.
This strategy would only really work against non-Sand HO, since slight residual damage ruins the entire gimmick.

This set also just seems like training wheels for Life Orb, as you describe it, since it hinges on the possibility of your opponent attacking, ignoring how a good player could create a scenario where they are forced to switch. Such as bring Blaziken in a Double Switch against a decently healthy Ferrothorn, and you have an Excadrill in the back that can sweep your opponent’s team. In this scenario, the Ferrothorn will either switch out to preserve itself for Excadrill, or risk being KO’d by Blaziken, thus making it so your Exacdrill pretty much win the game. In that same scenario, let’s your opponent has just enough to survive +2 of Blaziken’s moves, but not enough to survive +2 with Life Orb. If you ran Sash, you could lose your Blaziken without having done enough damage to your opponent’s team, while with Life Orb, you could significantly punch a huge hole in your opponent’s team at least before Blakizen faints, or just flat out sweep.
But let us also rewind in that scenario, and say that Ferrothorn user was ballsy, and Body Presses your Blaziken while you used Sword Dance.
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 130-153 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
You’re now at half health, no matter what you did to keep your Blaziken healthy. And unless you have a Wish Passer, that Focus Sash is now 100% useless. With Life Orb, you do have at most 6 uses left for any move you choose, but you still have an effective item still. Something that can deal more damage than with Sash before going down.
With sash, you also run into another problem.
Lets say that your opponent also have a Toxapex with Rocky Helmet, which due to regenerator is very much healthy, and your opponent’s Ferrothorn is still healthy enough to live a +2 earthquake (btw, Ferrothorn can be even below 50% HP and survive an Earthquake at +2 100% of the time, but only for sash)
+2 252 Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 123-145 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 67.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 160-188 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(The pex will also always survive a +2 Earthquake outside of crits at full health, while only having a 31.2% chance if surviving a +2 Life Orb Earthquake)
+2 252 Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 220-260 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 286-338 (94 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
With Life Orb, you can more often just click on EQ, and have no fear of relying on prediction. If Ferrothorn is too healthy, you have to decide on using Close Combat/Blaze Kick or Earthquake, and hope your opponent predicted incorrectly.
Even against a healthy Ferrothorn, having Life Orb is better as that 12% extra damage could mean your opponent’s Ferrothorn is no longer healthy enough to wall that Excadrill you have.

This is just 1 scenario among thousands.
Having Focus Sash also constricts your own team building as well, and the way you play a match. You are forced to have a Defogger and forced to keep it as healthy or else your set doesn’t work. If you have sand, you got to keep your Blaziken off the field while Sand is up. You need something to absorb a Toxic, as otherwise your pretty weak Blaziken can be stalled out anyways. All that can be exploited by the opponent. There are things that can exploit LO Blaziken, but most of those things also exploit focus sash.
Focus Sash also constricts Blaziken’s moves as well. While 99.9% of people still prefer CC, HJK is still an option for Life Orb sets, which is still more powerful, and so is Flare Blitz. You greatly diminish your power with Sash, not only because of the Life Orb boost, but because you have to restrain yourself from using the stronger BP moves Blaziken has.
 
Ok.
I'm about to rant.
Rant Starts...
Now
WHY IS APPLETUN IN PU???? IT'S SIGNATURE MOVE IS AN 80 BASE POWER, AND BASICALLY INCREASES IN POWER EVERY TIME YOU USE IT!!!! OH, AND IT GETS RIPEN+RECYCLE, MAKING SITRUS BERRY FREE RECOVER. IT ALSO GETS RECOVER AND 110/80/80 BULK, WHICH IS NOTHING TO LAUGH AT. OKAY, RANT'S OVER.
In other words, appletun can be pretty useful in OU. Here's my favorite set.
Appletun @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Ripen
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Recycle
- Apple Acid
- Draco Meteor
 
Why not Sword Dance until they attack, bringing you to low health?
Considering that this strategy already has a bunch of holes in it with Priority, Rocky Helmet, Sand, Stealth Rock, and sometimes a multi-hit move.
This strategy would only really work against non-Sand HO, since slight residual damage ruins the entire gimmick.

This set also just seems like training wheels for Life Orb, as you describe it, since it hinges on the possibility of your opponent attacking, ignoring how a good player could create a scenario where they are forced to switch. Such as bring Blaziken in a Double Switch against a decently healthy Ferrothorn, and you have an Excadrill in the back that can sweep your opponent’s team. In this scenario, the Ferrothorn will either switch out to preserve itself for Excadrill, or risk being KO’d by Blaziken, thus making it so your Exacdrill pretty much win the game. In that same scenario, let’s your opponent has just enough to survive +2 of Blaziken’s moves, but not enough to survive +2 with Life Orb. If you ran Sash, you could lose your Blaziken without having done enough damage to your opponent’s team, while with Life Orb, you could significantly punch a huge hole in your opponent’s team at least before Blakizen faints, or just flat out sweep.
But let us also rewind in that scenario, and say that Ferrothorn user was ballsy, and Body Presses your Blaziken while you used Sword Dance.
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 130-153 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
You’re now at half health, no matter what you did to keep your Blaziken healthy. And unless you have a Wish Passer, that Focus Sash is now 100% useless. With Life Orb, you do have at most 6 uses left for any move you choose, but you still have an effective item still. Something that can deal more damage than with Sash before going down.
With sash, you also run into another problem.
Lets say that your opponent also have a Toxapex with Rocky Helmet, which due to regenerator is very much healthy, and your opponent’s Ferrothorn is still healthy enough to live a +2 earthquake (btw, Ferrothorn can be even below 50% HP and survive an Earthquake at +2 100% of the time, but only for sash)
+2 252 Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 123-145 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 67.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 160-188 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(The pex will also always survive a +2 Earthquake outside of crits at full health, while only having a 31.2% chance if surviving a +2 Life Orb Earthquake)
+2 252 Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 220-260 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 286-338 (94 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
With Life Orb, you can more often just click on EQ, and have no fear of relying on prediction. If Ferrothorn is too healthy, you have to decide on using Close Combat/Blaze Kick or Earthquake, and hope your opponent predicted incorrectly.
Even against a healthy Ferrothorn, having Life Orb is better as that 12% extra damage could mean your opponent’s Ferrothorn is no longer healthy enough to wall that Excadrill you have.

This is just 1 scenario among thousands.
Having Focus Sash also constricts your own team building as well, and the way you play a match. You are forced to have a Defogger and forced to keep it as healthy or else your set doesn’t work. If you have sand, you got to keep your Blaziken off the field while Sand is up. You need something to absorb a Toxic, as otherwise your pretty weak Blaziken can be stalled out anyways. All that can be exploited by the opponent. There are things that can exploit LO Blaziken, but most of those things also exploit focus sash.
Focus Sash also constricts Blaziken’s moves as well. While 99.9% of people still prefer CC, HJK is still an option for Life Orb sets, which is still more powerful, and so is Flare Blitz. You greatly diminish your power with Sash, not only because of the Life Orb boost, but because you have to restrain yourself from using the stronger BP moves Blaziken has.
I don't get your FerroPex point, nor your ferro quake calcs. If I see Pex I quake, if I see Ferro I kick. If I predict once, well let's see. And if what you mean is, the opponent tries to abuse this and keeps switching for 3-4 turns between rockypex/ferro (people really use rockypex???), then I most likely will notice it and pull another sd. By then both will be in trouble against quake and my speed will be pretty high. Honestly this scenario is not common so I don't think it's worth discussing.

And you lost me at HJK. Running HJK when you have CC is simply greedy, and pointless.
Don't tell me you are in that 2% usage that runs HJK Hawlucha instead of CC.
You are correct, this is "training wheels LO", everything is there to ensure at least one turn of success. You also don't need a defogger because you lead with it T1 pretty much always, more training wheels.
Sure, the surprise factor is important, but surprise is only ruined if you play more than one match against the same person so...yeah
 
Last edited:
Have people been running VinCune to moderate or high success? Been spectating battles for the entirety of this meta and have seen an uptick in Cune. The set is telegraphed but it always comes in free. Really the only problems I’ve seen with people using it is they get greedy with the CM boosts and don’t rely as much as they should on pressure. It rips clef/pex a new one unless you do something stupid like switch in on a knock off. Getting in/anything free as a problem raised by anyone is a non-point in this meta with the central theme of broken pivoting abilities in the past 6 pages of this thread. I guess it stacks the slim suite of water weaknesses with the slow twins but what actually pressures VinCune behind a sub? Nothing with recovery wants to deal with it- maybe unaware clef.
 
Last edited:
Have people been running VinCune to moderate or high success? Been spectating battles for the entirety of this meta and have seen an uptick in Cune. The set is telegraphed but it always comes in free. Really the only problems I’ve seen with people using it is they get greedy with the CM boosts and don’t rely as much as they should on pressure. It rips clef/pex a new one unless you do something stupid like switch in on a knock off. Getting it/anything free as a problem raised by anyone is a non-point in this meta with the central theme of broken pivoting abilities in the past 6 pages of this thread. I guess it stacks the slim suite of water weaknesses with the slow twins but what actually pressures threaten VinCune behind a sub? Nothing with recovery wants to deal with it- maybe unaware clef.
Dragapult due to Infiltrator. Normally you would have to break the sub with something strong before threatening out with things Koko, Regileki, Rillaboom. Taunt users like Torn as well but the amount of faster Taunt users is a bit slim seeing as most of them are taking a chance to get burned. It also hates t-spikes since it needs lefties to maintain longevity, granted I guess someone could try boots with Wish support? Depends more on the game scenario tbh.
 
Have people been running VinCune to moderate or high success? Been spectating battles for the entirety of this meta and have seen an uptick in Cune. The set is telegraphed but it always comes in free. Really the only problems I’ve seen with people using it is they get greedy with the CM boosts and don’t rely as much as they should on pressure. It rips clef/pex a new one unless you do something stupid like switch in on a knock off. Getting it/anything free as a problem raised by anyone is a non-point in this meta with the central theme of broken pivoting abilities in the past 6 pages of this thread. I guess it stacks the slim suite of water weaknesses with the slow twins but what actually pressures threaten VinCune behind a sub? Nothing with recovery wants to deal with it- maybe unaware clef.
High sucess, as seen in here and here, just Ctrl+F and search. And honestly I don't know what can check Vincune, probably because I don't encounter it as much everytime I play, since it's down to RU.

Dragapult due to Infiltrator.
Probably what AM said.
 
Dragapult due to Infiltrator. Normally you would have to break the sub with something strong before threatening out with things Koko, Regileki, Rillaboom. Taunt users like Torn as well but the amount of faster Taunt users is a bit slim seeing as most of them are taking a chance to get burned. It also hates t-spikes since it needs lefties to maintain longevity, granted I guess someone could try boots with Wish support? Depends more on the game scenario tbh.
To your point, what is Cune fearing from infiltrator? It gets to scout with protect, burn some pp and get a little recovery. Specs Tbolt and draco are problems but I think CM after the shadow ball provides some resistance and a scald burn on the boots set allows it to be worn down. Basically if you have rocks up, you get to scout how to deal with pult
 
Ok.
I'm about to rant.
Rant Starts...
Now
WHY IS APPLETUN IN PU???? IT'S SIGNATURE MOVE IS AN 80 BASE POWER, AND BASICALLY INCREASES IN POWER EVERY TIME YOU USE IT!!!! OH, AND IT GETS RIPEN+RECYCLE, MAKING SITRUS BERRY FREE RECOVER. IT ALSO GETS RECOVER AND 110/80/80 BULK, WHICH IS NOTHING TO LAUGH AT. OKAY, RANT'S OVER.
In other words, appletun can be pretty useful in OU. Here's my favorite set.
Appletun @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Ripen
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Recycle
- Apple Acid
- Draco Meteor
Eeh.
I really don’t see why you would use Appletun over Ferrothorn as a tanky Grass type. All it has over Ferrothorn is recover, and it doesn’t do that much besides throw out weak moves, none of which can effectively so anything to Steel types or common regenerator Pokemon. You also have far better bulk, a far better typing, a strong Body Press, Spikes, Knock Off, Stealth Rocks, STAB Gyro Ball, and a punish for Contact abusers in Iron Barb when you use Ferrothorn.
Also take a look at the most common OU Pokemon.
Pheromosa U-turns on Appletun for massive damage while Ferrothorn easily tanks that hit while punishing non-protective pad variants.
Magearna can’t touch Ferrothorn without fighting coverage, and Ferrothorn can knock off its item, while Appletun does nothing.
Heatran will hit Appletun neutrally, but Appletun can’t do anything back, while Ferrothorn can Body Press and Knock Off on a switch.
Everything Appletun has an advantage over Ferrothorn in match-ups are too small and evenout by Knock Off and Hazards.

On a different note, I think a different Pokemon deserves some love.

While everyone has been in love with regular Urshifu, Urshifu-Rock... I mean Terrakion deserves some attention for HO, and not just as suicide lead either.
Having incredibly strong Rock STAB, an excellent speed tier, and Stone Edge being a non-contact move, Terrakion is a great answer to the common Defoggers can ruin the plans of HO, Sticky Webs, and Screens teams.
It’s Stone Edge is super effective against Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, and Tornadus-T, which currently all are popular Defog users, something regular Urshifu can’t do normally. Terrakion also has the benefit knowing that it can’t activate Static or Flame Body with Stone Edge, something Urshifu can with its STABs.
 
Lot of words incoming

Honestly, the nonstop talk about Teleport + Future Sight and the endless pro v anti momentum talks are getting a bit repetitive. So, I'm going to move along to a Pokemon considered egregiously useless by a good number of people that I've managed to actually find a usable niche in OU for (and is honestly really fun to use. Be prepared for yet another "MidnightReaper goes out of his way to make forgotten Pokemon usable in OU" post.

Stonjourner

Now you're probably thinking "an untiered Pokemon in OU? Really?" Yes, because Stonjourner has such a weird selection of stats and tools that give it the slightest of usable niches. Besides, look at that artwork; that cocky little shit has to have something up its sleeve to still have that smile while not even being ranked PU.

To solve the mystery, let's take a look at his stats.

HP:​
100​
Cool​
Attack:​
125​
Great​
Defense:​
135​
Fanfuckin'tastic​
Sp. Atk:​
20​
We just gonna ignore this​
Sp. Def:​
20​
We just gonna ignore this part 2, rock boogaloo​
Speed:​
70
That's ok-wait what?​

Notice something interesting? Usually, Pokemon such as Stonjourner (bulky Rock types) are slow as molasses, but not Stonjourner. Stonjourner actually has a base speed stat of 70 (something that made me double-take when I looked at his design). This means that Stonjourner can utilize a very oddly cobbled together Rock Polish set with very specific utility, and can put his excellent 125 base attack to use (in addition to his wonderful 100 / 135 physical bulk). I will be listing additional options after I talk about the set that I've been using.

I would like to preface before we go further that this set absolutely 100% requires prediction and bluffing your movepool to utilize its strengths. This is meant to be a late-game lure and cleaner that has extremely specific traits and is not a very splashable Pokemon.

Stonjourner @ Life Orb
Ability: Power Spot
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge (I prefer Rock Slide for the accuracy and flinch chance)
- Earthquake
- Heat Crash

Stonjourner having access to a 120 base power Fire move on certain Pokemon and lacking a quad resistance to Water / Grass moves are two unique aspects that give it specific utility in OU. Let's take a look at some damage calculations so you understand the level of Life Orb power on non-STAB moves with Stonjourner.

252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 395-465 (115.8 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 322-382 (88.4 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 221-263 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO (Stronger than Heat Crash in this situation)
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 577-681 (222.7 - 262.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 364-432 (103.4 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

STAB Rock Slide (or Stone Edge) absolutely maims common defensive answers such as Moltres and rounds out coverage nicely with Earthquake. 125 Attack for comparison is the same attack stat as Pokemon like Rillaboom, Marshadow, Zapdos-G and Bisharp. 135 Defense is only 8 lower than the current OU terror Melmetal. The whole purpose of using Stonjourner is as a late-game Rock-type Rock Polish Life Orb cleaner with unexpected coverage and speed. Stonjourner has additional options that are worth mentioning; Heavy Slam is an option to nuke Fairies such as Clefable. It has access to the Iron Defense Body Press combination (Body Press itself is worth note due to Stonjourner's higher Defense). Stealth Rock is also an additional option.

If you can play around Stonjourner's abysmal Special bulk, it has a usable albeit hyper specific niche.
Love it dude. Stonjourner probably has my favorite design of any mon from Galar, it was a shame it's been kind of relegated to the depths of ZU (it is an S rank there to be fair), so finding a niche for it in this meta is pretty impressive. Rock Polish seems like an honestly usable option on it because special priority is very rare (just Vacuum Wave and Lucario, and RU mon, is the only user of it). I will agree with you that in a real teambuilding scenario putting this set on a team is probably going to be extremely challenging because Stonjourner usually will struggle to find a lot of opportunities to get a Rock Polish off due to the fact that there are just so many special attackers that OHKO it - I mean even Zapdos uninvested can OHKO it. The main reason I would use this set would be if my team needed some sort of lure that can give bulkier Steel-types like Corvi (which, if running Adamant, has a big chance to OHKO it after Rocks), Ferro, and Magearna a hard time. That's actually kind of a real niche if you think about it, since Stonjourner has a huge surprise factor and mons like Heatran are obviously a lot more predictable and the aforementioned Pokemon are more likely to switch out on Heatran whereas with Stonjourner they're staying in to get KOed. Definitely a supremely niche mon, will probably have to see it in action to confirm that it has a niche, but I like where you're going with this.

Something I think people are sleeping on is Specs Kyurem.
:bw/kyurem:+ :choice-specs:
Strange Places (Kyurem) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
Here is a full list of OU mons Kyurem does not 2HKO:
- Assault Vest Magearna

That's it. It's a bit prediction reliant, but especially because people usually are not using sturdy Kyurem answers, the payoff is huge. This thing absolutely decimates the common balance cores that are running around right now. Paired with Wish support, it has a nasty habit of sticking around. It has ungodly bulk, and while it does not have fantastic defensive typing, this bulk means it can almost always take even a boosted neutral hit and respond with an OHKO. Especially paired with Wish + Teleport Clef, this thing is an absolute demon.
Specs Kyu is probably one of the hardest mons to switch into in this metagame because it separates itself from other Specs users by having a STAB that is extremely spammable; it hits every typing, is free of recoil, and has awesome type coverage. This set is ridiculously good if you need a bird crusher, thus making it an AMAZING partner to Rillaboom. Banded Rillaboom can lure in a bird and U-turn out to Kyurem and suddenly your opponent is in a whole conundrum because they need to either risk a bird or switching (and Kyurem has awesome coverage, so one correct predict and you're really pressuring your opponent). Having Freeze-Dry at your disposal is awesome too because suddenly Toxapex has serious trouble trying to switch in. Once Kyurem takes care of these mons, Rillaboom has so much more room to get to work because without these mons Rilla is actually terrifying to face with a Choice Band. That's such a good thing about the two together; Rillaboom uses a lure with U-turn to eventually clear itself up for more breaking or for a setup sweeper. Even if you mispredict at every single junction (having two choiced mons can do that to you) you're eventually going to wear down the opposing team and overwhelm them between two really powerful attacks. It's a great core for teams that need breakers and it can really just pressure your opponent severely if they're running a more balanced squad. With the Clefable + Toxapex core becoming a more popular thing lately (these two seem to be top 3 in usage consistently), having a pair of breakers that almost always takes care of them is such a valuable asset. On paper this core is terrifying - a Kyurem-Rillaboom core on paper should have insane breaking capabilities and clears the way for a wincon to setup and win.

Speaking of wincons, earlier this week I posted about how Dragonite has real sweeping capabilities but its 4MSS can hold it back big time. I'm just thinking out loud here, but Dragonite pairs pretty well with Kyurem (even if you're just rocking Kyurem by itself, adding Rillaboom makes Pex and Clef a much smaller issue however and helps lure in the bird mons that give Dragonite trouble) because of the aforementioned ability it has to take out those two (three if you're worried about Flame Body Moltres) birds. Forming a core with Kyurem and Rillaboom actually lets Dragonite opt for Roost as its fourth move because with DWB and Earthquake you're hitting nearly the entire tier for perfect coverage (and actually, the entire game save for 12) just missing out on Zapdos and Corviknight (plus the rarer Celesteela and Skarm). You know what mon breaks down the ones I just mentioned? You guessed it, Specs Kyurem. With this trio, you can lure in bird types, pressure the opposing team with Kyurem, then clear the way for Dnite. As for a sample core, I'd probably go with:

:ss/Kyurem:

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power

:ss/Rillaboom:

Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- U-turn
- Grassy Glide
- Knock Off

:ss/Dragonite:

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
- Roost


The main way to make Dragonite, and to an extent just about every sweeper (Kyurem-B and Zygarde were exceptions to this for the most part, pretty big reason they got banned imo) work in this meta is to surround them with mons that handle what gets in their way often. Dragonite's most common checks when forgoing Outrage are Zapdos and Corvi, and even with Outrage you're dealing with Clefable who can tank a DWB with ease often and Toxapex who can tank an EQ and use Haze or Toxic or attempt a Scald Burn. Like I said earlier, Kyurem + Rillaboom can work together to handle all of these mons. Kyurem really by itself can handle all of them bar Toxapex with Ice Beam most the time. It's just that having Rillaboom lures the two bird mons in. It's worth noting the latter two win regardless of moveset. Now you may ask, why is Roost so important? What makes it so valuable on Dragonite? Is reactivating Multiscale that important? The simple answer is: yes. To put it simply, Dragonite running Jolly and having to wear HDB over a boosting item means that DWB and EQ can be pretty weak at times. This means that there are times where if you fall short of KOing an opponent, they can KO Dragonite back. By being able to Roost back into Multiscale range, you're giving yourself a higher chance to attack with more HP as if you're able to Roost back into full health they'll hit you right after you roost (assuming you're faster) and you'll have a greater chance to finish off the sweep. Roost also evades Sucker Punch from Cinderace which has helped me in the past. I know I just talked about Dragonite a ton, and that's because Kyurem just accompanies it so WELL. Handling Dragonite's checks is going to really clear the path for Dragonite and unlock its full sweeping capabiltiies. Having Rillaboom to lure in birds and then potentially break later also helps Dragonite out a ton.

So yeah, all in all, Specs Kyurem is just a fantastically strong special breaker and pairing it with Rillaboom to lure in bird types for it to break through sounds like a terrifying breaking core. These two can really clear the way for a bunch of sweepers and Dragonite was a pretty good example of how they can break through common checks for it.
 
Last edited:
To your point, what is Cune fearing from infiltrator? It gets to scout with protect, burn some pp and get a little recovery. Specs Tbolt and draco are problems but I think CM after the shadow ball provides some resistance and a scald burn on the boots set allows it to be worn down. Basically if you have rocks up, you get to scout how to deal with pult
Suicune doesnt want to be statused since it either negates leftovers in the case of a burn, or cuts its speed to where it's either getting para'd in the case of the hdb Hex variants or slower to where more things have an opportunity to take advantage. It can definitely just scald to fish the burn on a potential switch in but it's a sketchy trade off until you confirm what variant it is. I do agree with your points though.
 

MANNAT

Follow me on twitch!
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

AM briefly covered part of the interaction in the above post, but the reason why getting statused is so debilitating for vincune in particular is because unlike crocune, it lacks the ability to heal off status with rest, making a burn pretty much a death sentence for it. The reason why vincune is such a potent pokemon is the combination of substitute + protect + leftovers + pressure. You heal off half a sub each time you sub + protect, allowing you to make way more subs and basically completely making up for one whenever your opponent fails to break a sub, but with burn any damage on suicune is permanent, meaning that you're functionally limited to 3 substitutes the entire game which means that you have a vincune without pretty much everything that makes it good. Thunder wave can also be incredibly damaging for suicune because it relies on being able to protect in the face of things that normally threaten it out to pp stall them or scout choice users, but you can't safely do that while para'd because there's a 25% chance you get turbo punished for it. Generally, the way to go with that interaction is pretty dependent on game state and scouting. It's pretty good to protect turn 1 to scout for a potential status move and pivoting appropriately, ie hippowdon on thunder wave/heatran on willowisp/etc.
I guess someone could try boots with Wish support?
Just wanted to address this but running boots on vincune is an atrocious idea because that ability to subtect and use lefties to make way more subs over the course of an individual interaction than you would be able to otherwise is incredibly important for pp stalling, especially considering the relative inconsistency of wishpassing (without teleport which presents its own issues). I think you're generally way better off pairing it with a grounded poison like amoong or fog that removes tspikes than going with boots from a functionality standpoint.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top