Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Zneon

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So bb skarm brought up Pheromosa in a great post, but in all honestly unlike a lot of people I don't find Pheromosa to be broken, though I do understand where the ban arguments for this Pokemon are coming from, I really don't find it to be broken right now and I'm going to go over why.

Pheromosa is an outstanding Pokemon, a top 3 Pokemon in fact at worst in my opinion, it's just that good however I feel its more of just extremely good than actually broken. The reason being is that its checks / counters are all very self sufficient Pokemon and some can just flat out deter Pheromosa from clicking U-turn without some form of punishment. Moltres / Zapdos are the biggest examples, especially Moltres, because that Pokemon doesn't really take a lot from Pheromosa's attacks, including Ice Beam, that's a pretty big drawback of a Pokemon who is going to be clicking U-turn most of the game, and while it is very good at it by forcing switches and wearing down stuff, the checks to Pheromosa, again are all very self sufficient. Clefable, Toxapex, and Moltres are good examples of this since they just recover off the damage while also being very splashable on many teams right now and considering that Pheromosa's main goal outside of spamming U-turn is to wear things down until its ready to clean up late game, that's not a good thing in Pheromosa's favour, which is a lesser case for QD, which is my opinion the broken set out of the 3 but I'll get into that next.

Now onto QD, this is the set that I feel can potentially push Pheromosa over the edge because of how consistently the Pokemon is able to sweep teams after 1 QD, which isn't hard since it forces pretty easily, and considering that Pheromosa hits really hard and is still ludicrously fast even with Modest, you can use it as a wallbreaker as well. The issue with this is that it makes checks to the other sets not really checks anymore, Moltres and Toxapex cannot handle Shock Wave at +1, and Fini needs to be at high health to live one at +1, Clefable needs to be as healthy as possible or it can just fold to Ice Beam, making it not even a good switch in. I don't think its other 2 sets are broken at all and in the current metagame, even unhealthy, however with QD added to the mix it I feel it definitely has a chance to be unhealthy.

Overall, I feel Pheromosa right now is pretty manageable. I do agree that offensive counterplay to it outside of priority and scarfers are basically nonexistent, I feel teams will have at least 1 and its defensive countermeasures overall are just good enough, self sufficient enough and splashable and common enough even without Pheromosa's presence for me to feel that it can be played around pretty consistently.

This is going to spark some disagreements but I would love to now your responses and opinions on Pheromosa though. Hope you enjoyed this post!
 
Overall, I feel Pheromosa right now is pretty manageable. I do agree that offensive counterplay to it outside of priority and scarfers are basically nonexistent, I feel teams will have at least 1 and its defensive countermeasures overall are just good enough, self sufficient enough and splashable and common enough even without Pheromosa's presence for me to feel that it can be played around pretty consistently.
I agree with everything you said, it's just that this paragraph is a bit weird to me. It basically seems to say, if we don't do the things that counter pheromosa, we can't counter pheromosa, which is true I guess, but says more about the person not doing it than about pheromosa.

Don't want to sound too aggressive, I think the rest of your post is really really on point :), and you described the defensive side of things well, the only thing I would add is that offensive teams that use TR or sticky web also have great speed control on phero
 
So I have been playing around with Glastrier and Trick Room for a little bit, and I was wondering if this set could be workable in OU.

Frosty the Glastrier
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability:Chilling Neigh
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Megahorn/Body Slam

So this set is pretty powerful in NatDex( I know this is the OU forum and I'm sorry for speaking out of line, but I need to tell you how powerful this thing is.) Icicle Crash is it's STAB which, with Life Orb, nukes a lot of Flying and Ground types on the dot. High Horsepower hits Toxapex for super-effective and 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Close Combat KOs Tyranitar (obviously) and 2HKOs Ferrothorn. Megahorn hits Slowbro and Slowking and Body Slam for the rest. Here are le calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 328-385 (77.5 - 91%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 743-879 (183.9 -217.5)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%)



As you can see, THATSA ALOTTA DAMAGE!!
(Also, how do you put a lot of data in one button. Like "Sets" and when you press the Sets you can see everything. I would like to know...)
 
So I have been playing around with Glastrier and Trick Room for a little bit, and I was wondering if this set could be workable in OU.

Frosty the Glastrier
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability:Chilling Neigh
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Megahorn/Body Slam

So this set is pretty powerful in NatDex( I know this is the OU forum and I'm sorry for speaking out of line, but I need to tell you how powerful this thing is.) Icicle Crash is it's STAB which, with Life Orb, nukes a lot of Flying and Ground types on the dot. High Horsepower hits Toxapex for super-effective and 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Close Combat KOs Tyranitar (obviously) and 2HKOs Ferrothorn. Megahorn hits Slowbro and Slowking and Body Slam for the rest. Here are le calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 328-385 (77.5 - 91%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 743-879 (183.9 -217.5)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%)



As you can see, THATSA ALOTTA DAMAGE!!
(Also, how do you put a lot of data in one button. Like "Sets" and when you press the Sets you can see everything. I would like to know...)
Use a hide tag to put the sets in, by using

[ hide=sets][/hide] do it without the spaces and put the sets in between both the tags
 
So I have been playing around with Glastrier and Trick Room for a little bit, and I was wondering if this set could be workable in OU.

Frosty the Glastrier
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability:Chilling Neigh
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Megahorn/Body Slam

So this set is pretty powerful in NatDex( I know this is the OU forum and I'm sorry for speaking out of line, but I need to tell you how powerful this thing is.) Icicle Crash is it's STAB which, with Life Orb, nukes a lot of Flying and Ground types on the dot. High Horsepower hits Toxapex for super-effective and 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Close Combat KOs Tyranitar (obviously) and 2HKOs Ferrothorn. Megahorn hits Slowbro and Slowking and Body Slam for the rest. Here are le calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 328-385 (77.5 - 91%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 743-879 (183.9 -217.5)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%)



As you can see, THATSA ALOTTA DAMAGE!!
(Also, how do you put a lot of data in one button. Like "Sets" and when you press the Sets you can see everything. I would like to know...)
I've seen glastrier used on trick room teams in OU, but from what I remember I mostly saw it with boots, guess probably because it's got quite the stealth rock weakness. Life orb seems like a take that gives it more punching power, which seems good as trick room sweepers generally want a lot of straight up firepower, but this does leave it a bit open to chipping, which may or may not matter given it's great bulk and speed under trick room. Since all those calcs you showed are super effective moves, might I suggest something like an expert belt as something of a middle ground item between boots and LO, as it will allow you to hit almost as hard as LO while not chipping yourself. Granted, this is a bit prediction reliant, but glastrier has nice enough coverage that it might be useful

Oh yh also you can still put that set in spoilers if you want, you just have to press the edit button below your post
 
I've seen glastrier used on trick room teams in OU, but from what I remember I mostly saw it with boots, guess probably because it's got quite the stealth rock weakness. Life orb seems like a take that gives it more punching power, which seems good as trick room sweepers generally want a lot of straight up firepower, but this does leave it a bit open to chipping, which may or may not matter given it's great bulk and speed under trick room. Since all those calcs you showed are super effective moves, might I suggest something like an expert belt as something of a middle ground item between boots and LO, as it will allow you to hit almost as hard as LO while not chipping yourself. Granted, this is a bit prediction reliant, but glastrier has nice enough coverage that it might be useful

Oh yh also you can still put that set in spoilers if you want, you just have to press the edit button below your post
I was thinking of Boots Glastrier a while back, but like you said, I wanted immediate power so once it got a chilling neigh boost it would hit incredibly hard. So Expert Belt is a pretty good alternative..
 
I was thinking of Boots Glastrier a while back, but like you said, I wanted immediate power so once it got a chilling neigh boost it would hit incredibly hard. So Expert Belt is a pretty good alternative..
I was using HDB Swords Dance Glastier in conjunction with Double Screens+Yawn+Trick Room Meowstick, which allowed Glastier to leverage its massive bulk with screen support and not be compromised by hazards, letting it set up SD with ease.

Behind screens this is one faaaaaat pony.
 
Now I may have completely missed the trend here but I have laddered three separate teams to 1700 with this guy and not seen a single one in my entire trip through the tier.. I give you... AV Buzzwole:
Buzzwole @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 172 HP / 100 Atk / 44 Def / 192 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake

The EVs are not optimized at all, but holy crap, this thing can really catch your opponent off guard and will outright win you games that you otherwise might be in a really tough spot in. Stone Edge is solely for Moltres/Zapdos as people love to think that the birds can just infinitely switch into/stay in on Buzzwole but it obviously OHKO's Moltres and forces a roost from Zapdos to which you can either switch on or go for the earthquake which WILL tilt your opponent sideways if executed properly. Outside of that, it does this to offensive Heatran:

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 300-354 (75.3 - 88.9%)
100+ Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%)

Or EQ if you want the insta-kill.

Just a couple other random rolls that helps its case

252+ SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 129-153 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
100+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 150-177 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
100+ Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 216-256 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh, and QD Pheromosa thinks it's got you by surprise... well..
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 165-195 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This right here though, is perhaps my favorite roll :
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 354-416 (88.9 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

The real kicker on this version of Buzzwole is that he overall really doesn't lose out on too much utility of other sets I commonly see. Moreso, it actually shores up the weaknesses of a bulk up or roost set. It still absolutely reks Rillaboom/Urshifu/Kartana/Pheromosa (the latter in an even better way), with the added benefit of actually beating several potential switch-ins. You can really swing the offensive momentum of a game in your favor by playing this thing at the right time. Not only that, but even once your opponent knows it still does its job properly and can still even win certain late-game situations it otherwise wouldn't.

Now, this thing is highly susceptible to being worn down and is still dying to a hurricane from anything in one hit, so be wary of that. You don't really want to be switching this *in* on a special attacker as it kind of defeats the purpose, so this either needs to be played in an extremely hyper offensive environment or in a team paired with a better overall special wall.

I have managed to ladder three different self-built teams to ~1700 on ladder with this mon being a significant x-factor in getting me there. I do not think that it's just the novelty of the set either, I think (especially if someone optimized the EVs) this thing is a legitimate threat that can put your opponent in a really bad spot if they are not prepared for it.
 
lol AV buzzwole. Seems like buzzwole has become the universal physical check now too, a big change from back when I started the buzzwole meta.

Also, cool that people have started using slowbro and blissey over chansey now. It's just better (even with eviolite) as I mentioned a year ago.

Just started playing some gen8, it seems that FS + Teleport slowking + Urshifu seems dangerously strong as a wall-breaking combo.
 
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i have been thinking about using mega gallade in ou with teleport wish and close combat as stab and a move of choice but not really sure or it will work please help me
 

Zneon

schmovin
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i have been thinking about using mega gallade in ou with teleport wish and close combat as stab and a move of choice but not really sure or it will work please help me
For the record, Mega Gallade isn’t allowed in gen 8 since megas are not available.

In the case you actually mean regular Gallade it isn’t going to use teleport + wish well as unlike Clefable, it lacks a good defensive typing to really use it properly. Psychic / fighting is pretty horrible defensively as it’s hit hard by so many things neutrally and doesn’t check anything important and CC as a standalone move gets walled by too many prevalent things and it cannot really afford that since neither is its bulk nor typing allows for any actual defensive utility outside of wishport.
 

ausma

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Hey all, I hope you're all having a fantastic weekend! I have a couple of discussion points for you guys that I would like to bring to the table; I'll start with one for now to keep things simple. My first discussion point revolves around Urshifu-SS.



I've been doing a lot of laddering and experimentation lately, particularly focusing a lot on the infamous Futureport user Slowbro, as well as its best abusers. We are all fairly familiar with how this operates, and it's driven a lot of Pokemon from being radar threats to potentially banworthy. For a while, I thought that the enabler--Futureport--was the problem, as there are a myriad of natural answers in the tier to Pokemon such as Pheromosa and Melmetal that can get overwhelmed with the additional pressure provided by Slowbro's incredible facilitation of the move. However, after extensive playing using this technique more thoroughly, I realized that the technique itself can be stuffed relatively easily if Slowbro faces too much pressure in of itself, which it easily can due to how valuable it is as both a wall and a pivot. Its typing, while fairly good for checking Cinderace and Melmetal, is not the best defensively due to a notable weakness to Volt-Turn, the nearly omnipresent use of Knock Off in the tier, and yielding a troublesome weakness to Urshifu-SS and Pheromosa's other STAB options. Against any good offensive team, Futureport can crumble if used recklessly, and for that reason I think it can be more readily checked despite how strong of a strategy it can be on Balanced Offense and Bulky Offense teams. However, I still do not believe such things as Pheromosa or Melmetal are problematic factors in of themselves when it comes to Futureport facilitation; though, Urshifu-SS is a problem in my eyes, and I'd like to explain why.

Urshifu-SS has always been a fairly polarizing Pokemon offensively, with one of the most spammable STABs in the game in Wicked Blow and a brutal STAB CC to back it. For that reason, it is a prime candidate for Futureport abuse, and I believe that the answers to Urshifu are much more limited than the myriad of checks that can handle Pheromosa and Melmetal. Urshifu's brutal STAB combination and damage output in tandem with hazard support and Future Sight leaves it so its only real switch-ins are Fairy-types. Of the top Fairy-types, the only viable, consistent answers come in the form of Clefable and Tapu Fini. While both compress quite a bit on a team, they can more readily crumble to Futureport support, and Wishport Clefable faces severe difficulty handling it due to Unseen Fist bypassing its only way to remain healthy. Tapu Fini, unfortunately, can be easily overwhelmed with a combination of Stealth Rock chip --> Wicked Blow --> Future Sight --> Wicked Blow, making it unreliable against the strategy (especially if Tapu Fini is pressured dealing with other threats like Melmetal or Garchomp and is already chipped). Utility Clefable can sometimes face this problem as well, though to a slightly lesser extent thanks to Magic Guard to mitigate hazard chip. Poison Jab variants are run sometimes as well, which can completely throttle Clefable and Tapu Fini if it opts for coverage over Sucker Punch priority. Although, I find myself more pressed to run U-turn + Sucker Punch, as Urshifu can always phenomenally pair with any good Fairy-type buster like rising star Nidoking, this still forces a very dangerous guessing game with revenge killers versus bulky Fairy-types to check Urshifu, and especially with Futureport, this can be really overwhelming to play against as guessing correctly can still be mitigated with something as simple as Future Sight to back its onslaught. I find myself nearly obligated to run a Fairy-type simply to check Urshifu to some degree of consistency, but even this isn't too consistent in execution as Futureport can completely throttle the switch-in anyway.

This simply just addresses its Choice Band variant. In fact, I find its LO Bulk Up sets to be extremely strong HO staples, able to pair phenomenally well with dual dance Magearna to lay out severe pressure against most of the defensive tier. Magearna can use Urshifu's few switch-ins as fairly good setup fodder since it is very good at forcing such switch-ins. Having the freedom to switch up moves after a Bulk Up boost makes it even more terrifying, with the 50/50s created via its last moveslot being even more polarizing and sometimes even game defining.

I'm curious to hear what people think about Urshifu-SS in the tier, and if people think it is a main suspect as to Futureport's strength at the moment. I personally think it is, and although I think it alone isn't broken, it takes far too great advantage of team support in my eyes to be a consistently healthy component to the tier, if it is one at all. Even if it can be checked with things like Rocky Helmet or residual damage, I think its sheer wallbreaking ability especially with Futureport to cleave through nearly all of its checks is too much and opens up offensive wincons far too easily to be conceivably healthy in my eyes.
 
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Hey all, I hope you're all having a fantastic weekend! I have a couple of discussion points for you guys that I would like to bring to the table; I'll start with one for now to keep things simple. My first discussion point revolves around Urshifu-SS.



I've been doing a lot of laddering and experimentation lately, particularly focusing a lot on the infamous Futureport user Slowbro, as well as its best abusers. We are all fairly familiar with how this operates, and it's driven a lot of Pokemon from being radar threats to potentially banworthy. For a while, I thought that the enabler--Futureport--was the problem, as there are a myriad of natural answers in the tier to Pokemon such as Pheromosa and Melmetal that can get overwhelmed with the additional pressure provided by Slowbro's incredible facilitation of the move. However, after extensive playing using this technique more thoroughly, I realized that the technique itself can be stuffed relatively easily if Slowbro faces too much pressure in of itself, which it easily can due to how valuable it is as both a wall and a pivot. Its typing, while fairly good for checking Cinderace and Melmetal, is not the best defensively due to a notable weakness to Volt-Turn, the nearly omnipresent use of Knock Off in the tier, and yielding a troublesome weakness to Urshifu-SS and Pheromosa's other STAB options. Against any good offensive team, Futureport can crumble if used recklessly, and for that reason I think it can be more readily checked despite how strong of a strategy it can be on Balanced Offense and Bulky Offense teams. However, I still do not believe Pheromosa or Melmetal are problematic factors in of themselves; though, Urshifu-SS is a problem in my eyes, and I'd like to explain why.

Urshifu-SS has always been a fairly polarizing Pokemon offensively, with one of the most spammable STABs in the game in Wicked Blow and a brutal STAB CC to back it. For that reason, it is a prime candidate for Futureport abuse, and I believe that the answers to Urshifu are much more limited than the myriad of checks that can handle Pheromosa and Melmetal. Urshifu's brutal STAB combination leaves it so its only real switch-ins are Fairy-types. Of the top Fairy-types, the only viable, consistent answers come in the form of Clefable and Tapu Fini. While both compress quite a bit on a team, they can more readily crumble to Futureport support, and Wishport Clefable faces severe difficulty handling it due to Unseen Fist bypassing its only way to remain healthy. Tapu Fini, unfortunately, can be easily overwhelmed with a combination of Stealth Rock chip --> Wicked Blow --> Future Sight --> Wicked Blow, making it unreliable against the strategy (especially if Tapu Fini is pressured dealing with other threats like Melmetal or Garchomp and is already chipped). Poison Jab variants are run sometimes as well, which can completely throttle Clefable and Tapu Fini if it opts for coverage over Sucker Punch priority. Although, I find myself more pressed to run U-turn + Sucker Punch, as Urshifu can always phenomenally pair with any good Fairy-type buster like rising star Nidoking, this still forces a very dangerous guessing game with revenge killers versus bulky Fairy-types to check Urshifu, and especially with Futureport, this can be really overwhelming to play against as guessing correctly can still be mitigated with something as simple as Future Sight to back its onslaught.

This simply just addresses its Choice Band variant. In fact, I find its LO sets to be extremely strong HO staples, able to pair phenomenally well with dual dance Magearna to lay out severe pressure against most of the defensive tier. Magearna can use Urshifu's few switch-ins as fairly good setup fodder since it is very good at forcing such switch-ins. Having the freedom to switch up moves after a Bulk Up boost makes it even more terrifying, with the 50/50s created via its last moveslot being even more polarizing and sometimes even game defining.

I'm curious to hear what people think about Urshifu-SS in the tier, and if people think it is a main suspect as to Futureport's strength at the moment. I personally think it is, and although I think it alone isn't broken, it takes far too great advantage of team support in my eyes to be a consistently healthy component to the tier, if it is one at all.
I am a big fan of Urshifu SS in the tier. I actually enjoy how much it messes up BO/Stall while doing less against offense. I have spammed that mag Urshifu futureport sample team to 1800. I like the priority, I like that it ignores intimidate. I have a hard time being convinced it’s too oppressive when Mandi, Clef and Pex are all staples and were staples before Urshifu came out says to me it’s not a problem. There’s ungodly amounts of contact punishment in this tier and if you forgo pads you’re likely going to be chipped or heavily crippled. The fact that these checks can be broken down with futureport is fine to me, I think people do need to start playing more aggressively against futureport and punish the Slowbro/Slowking with some aggro doubles. We have stuff like Spectrier in the tier, it’s not brain surgery to mess up those fat pieces of shit, people play them so brainlessly. The fact people can’t just do their usual regenerator loops when a future sight is live is a good thing in my eyes. so much of Gen 6 and 7 is go into your fat thing or regenerator to scout the breaker then switch again or heal, it’s really refreshing to see something that requires the other player to take some initiative.
 
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Perish Song

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Urshifu is a ridiculous Pokemon with an excellent STAB combination and an ability that prevents scouting. Without FuturePort, it will still benefit from teammates with access to moves like Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic, Knock Off, and Thunder Wave and other teammates that can pivot for it. This is an effect of new toy syndrome, aka everyone testing newly introduced Pokemon, and the old ones are forgotten just like how TTar and Aegislash fell to UU for a short time. It surely gained new checks in Tapu Fini and Kanto Birds, but it still punches a great amount of Pokemon in the tier.

FuturePort is a mechanic that needs to be looked upon individually, as this combination isn't the sole factor that enables Urshifu. Many other offensive threats such as Nidoking, Melmetal, Pheromosa, and Cinderace benefit greatly from the FuturePort, as it enables a ridiculous offensive presence that doesn't really have a consistent defensive counterplay and often forces unhealthy '50-'50s. I don't know how this will be handled but Future Sight was only seen as a niche strategy prior to Teleport and with the introduction of Teleport it is the standard set of certain Pokemon, speaks for itself how much of an impact it made in the metagame.
 
I think that IF Futureport is deemed broken by suspect, it should be a prime candidate for a complex ban similar to Aldaron's Proposal. I know people will give me a long slippery slope rebuttals and suddenly care about shitty 0 use futureport potential users and how rain was such a critical part of the bw meta compared to futureport is in gen 8 but like, banning slowking and slowbro is more unacceptable in my eyes, it’s just bonkers insane to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I think that IF Futureport is deemed broken by suspect, it should be a prime candidate for a complex ban similar to Aldaron's Proposal. I know people will give me a long slippery slope rebuttals and suddenly care about shitty 0 use futureport potential users and how rain was such a critical part of the bw meta compared to futureport is in gen 8 but like, banning slowking and slowbro is more unacceptable in my eyes, it’s just bonkers insane to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There have been a number of posts in this thread recently about how we don't tier based on whether we prefer one metagame to another, but rather based on whether the subject at hand is broken or not. If the Slowtwins are oppressive, we ban them, and if that makes Cinderace or whatever broken, we ban that too.

Besides, I haven't seen a single credible argument that Futureport is broken on anything that is not a Slowtwin. It's extremely exploitable. Does anybody even want to try to make that argument?

Edit: also if anybody wants to say that there's no collateral damage in a complex Futureport ban because there are no viable lower-tier users, I will fight them. There are no broken users, and it's much more exploitable, but there are viable lower-tier Futureport mons.
 
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FuturePort is a mechanic that needs to be looked upon individually, as this combination isn't the sole factor that enables Urshifu. Many other offensive threats such as Nidoking, Melmetal, Pheromosa, and Cinderace benefit greatly from the FuturePort, as it enables a ridiculous offensive presence that doesn't really have a consistent defensive counterplay and often forces unhealthy '50-'50s. I don't know how this will be handled but Future Sight was only seen as a niche strategy prior to Teleport and with the introduction of Teleport it is the standard set of certain Pokemon, speaks for itself how much of an impact it made in the metagame.
I don't really see why we are looking at the mechanic itself instead of the pokemon that use them because there are only two that can use FuturePort viably, the slow twins. There are 11 other fully evolved pokemon with the combination of wish + teleport and I don't think any of them are broken with it (unless someone proves me wrong) . It is only due to the slow twins great bulk + regenerator that makes them a problem, which gives them enough chances and the longevity to get a future sight up and teleport to a wall breaker. The slow twins are the alleged problem, not futureport itself and we should probably suspect atleast slowbro first rather than ban the strategy itself. I don't even believe that FuturePort is broken but focus should be on the pokemon that use this strategy, not the strategy itself.
 
I am a big fan of Urshifu SS in the tier. I actually enjoy how much it messes up BO/Stall while doing less against offense. I have spammed that mag Urshifu futureport sample team to 1800. I like the priority, I like that it ignores intimidate. I have a hard time being convinced it’s too oppressive when Mandi, Clef and Pex are all staples and were staples before Urshifu came out says to me it’s not a problem. There’s ungodly amounts of contact punishment in this tier and if you forgo pads you’re likely going to be chipped or heavily crippled. The fact that these checks can be broken down with futureport is fine to me, I think people do need to start playing more aggressively against futureport and punish the Slowbro/Slowking with some aggro doubles. We have stuff like Spectrier in the tier, it’s not brain surgery to mess up those fat pieces of shit, people play them so brainlessly. The fact people can’t just do their usual regenerator loops when a future sight is live is a good thing in my eyes. so much of Gen 6 and 7 is go into your fat thing or regenerator to scout the breaker then switch again or heal, it’s really refreshing to see something that requires the other player to take some initiative.
Can you send me the sample team you're talking about?
 

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Complex bans aren't happening unless something drastic changes for roughly the same reasoning I alluded to here. It's not like any complex ban would be a rational solution here regardless.

Personally, I feel like Urshifu/Future Sight can be an issue, but Spectrier and Pheromosa may be more troublesome. I plan on posting in more detail on them now, but if you guys want to discuss Urshifu/Future Sight, do yourself and everyone reading a favor and don't bother discussing complex bans as it's just a waste everyone's time as it currently stands. Even if the council was for them, this goes far beyond the council and more towards Smogon tiering policy as a whole, which has no business being in this thread regardless.
 
Complex bans aren't happening unless something drastic changes for roughly the same reasoning I alluded to here. It's not like any complex ban would be a rational solution here regardless.

Personally, I feel like Urshifu/Future Sight can be an issue, but Spectrier and Pheromosa may be more troublesome. I plan on posting in more detail on them now, but if you guys want to discuss Urshifu/Future Sight, do yourself and everyone reading a favor and don't bother discussing complex bans as it's just a waste everyone's time as it currently stands. Even if the council was for them, this goes far beyond the council and more towards Smogon tiering policy as a whole, which has no business being in this thread regardless.
Can you touch on what has changed with tiering policy compared to BW? I realize my position is exceptionally unpopular and I don’t really care how this particular issue plays out but I think it would be good to spell out what if anything has changed besides who’s in charge
 

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