Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Katy

Banned deucer.
Hey y'all,

I wanna talk about :Urshifu:-S, since it got brought up earlier in this thread and I think it's important to get different point of views on it.
So first of all a quick view on it, Urshifu-S has sure a centralizing effect on the metagame, which also counts for Pokemon like the currently suspected Pheromosa, the ghosty-horse Spectrier, and also to a lesser degree Magearna. But Urshifu-S is no different in centralizing the metagame to some degree, especially with Future-Port-Support, due to Slowbro and the less used Slowking, but it can also profit and benefit of Galar-Slowkings Future-Sight (allthough it has no Teleport, but its Future-Sight stuff still pressures a ton of the counterplay to Urshifu-S).

Urshifu-S is a strong wallbreaker, capable of using an insane ability in Unseen Fist, which all contacts moves go through Protect. Its great typing in dark/fighting helps it a lot to capitalize from its potential, as this typecombination is really great in the current metagame, with not many Pokemon being able to wall the dual-stabs + its coverage-options. With a great HP, and Defense-stat being both 100 and its amazing Attack-stat of 130 and its great Speed-tier being 97, it has the stats to be a threatening Wallbreaker as well. Furthermore it has different Sets, which it can use, be it Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Bulk Up, all its sets put in some work, and with the foremer two it can easily get Momentum via U-turn and with the latter it can become a dangerous breaker with Wicked Blow, Close Combat / Drain Punch, and Sucker Punch.

:Urshifu: (Single-Strike) Sets:

Urshifu @ Choice Band / @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Poison Jab / Iron Head

Urshifu @ Black Glasses / @ Life Orb

Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch​

these Set-options are the main-sets currently in the metagame and have different counterplay options, but first off, let's dive in into a more in-depth view about these two sets:

Choice Band / Choice Scarf: This set really hits hard,e specially in concjunction with Choice Band, Wicked Blow-spam is really free in the current metagame and hits baring physically defensive Clefable and physically defensive Tapu Fini everything else pretty hard. Choice Band-sets can further Urshifus wallbreaking potential due to the already very good and optimal Attack-stat. Choice Scarf, however, can be also a Set-option, due to how many Pokemon it threatens, due to the Speed-control this set gives, being able to outrun a vast majority of the metagame with a Scarf is pretty functionally and good. It can outrun faster threats such as CB-Pheromosa, Spectrier, Tapu Koko, offensive Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, Barraskewda (without rain), and Scarf-Lando-T. Both sets have the ability to run either Poison Jab or Iron Head to dish out a lot of damage on the aforementioned Clefable and Tapu Fini, especially coupled with a Choice Band. What really helps these both sets is the support, due to Future-Sight and Teleport from Slowbro as it can wear down the typical Checks to Urshifu and Urshifu can get past these Checks, with them taking damage from Futre-Sight and a always critting Wicked Blow or its coverage-options.

Bulk Up:
This Set is seen more on hyper Offensive structures, be it Screens, Veil, or Hazard Stack HO, which it can make use of, to get a better position to Bulk Up. Bulk Up-sets have an overlapping counterplay to the Band- or Scarf-Set; physically defensive Clefable and Tapu Fini! Bulk Up-sets tend to run Close Combat more often than Drain Punch, but if you want to keep Urshifu for longer, a strong Drain Punch can help there, which is a nice tool for it. Sucker Punch gives some mind-games, especially when urshifu is already at +1 any player has to be careful around its mind-games made up by Sucker Punch.

I believe all Sets are really dangerous and have their different aspects of running through the metagame without any real drawbacks. Urshifu-S is a Pokemon, which shines more often than not during a battle and while it has its own flaws, the flaws by any means do NOT overshine how good Urshifu is.

But let's move on to another important aspect, the Counterplay to Urshifu!

These are the Pokemon, which can help versus it:
:Clefable:
:Tapu Fini:
:Toxapex:
:Landorus-Therian:
:buzzwole:
:kommo-o:
:togekiss:

These are the best to go with options currently, but the issue is Kommo-o and Togekiss aren't that splashable anymore, and Buzzwole while still being a great option in the current metagame finds itself in a rather weird spot, it can help to tank stuff against Urshifu, but with the above mentioned suppot due to Slowtwins, it gets ehavily pressured by Futre-Sight, more than Clefable and Tapu Fini do. Landorus-Therian can help the best versus Urshifu-S being locked into its fighting-type STAB or its coverage in Poison Jab, however it still doesn't appreciate a struck by Wicked Blow. Toxapex can also help, but this and Clefable as a core have to be physically defensive, or else they see themselves getting 2HKOed by Wocked Blow. Clefable and Toxapex however can profit from great recovery options in Soft Boiled and Recover, and the latter can grant itself longevity due to Regenerator while the former has Magic Guard to stay healthy and unaffected by entry hazards.
Clefable + Toxapex are the best options right now as a counterplay, Tapu Fini is another great Pokemon, which can help versus Urshifu-S. Tapu Fini is tanky enough to switch 3 times with Stealth Rocks up into Urshifus Wicked Blow. however it still gets pressured when multiple layers of entry hazards are up, Spikes or Toxic Spikes.

Closing Words:

While the counterplay doesn't seem bad they all get pressured by different factors, be it entry hazards in the case of Tapu Fini or be it the help from one of the Slowtwins, which can put pressure on Clefable and Toxapex-cores. I feel, it isn't that we lack Pokemon, which can help versus Urshifu-S but with different aspects, be it a support from the Slows, or be it support due to entry hazards, that counterplay gets limited.
And I can see why people talk about Urshifu-S and that this topic is a heat one. It isn't that we lack the number of Pokemon, but they could get limited during the course over the game to check Urshifu-S effectively. I would say, we still should keep a close eye on it, especially after the Pheromosa suspect is over. I feel Urshifu-S, Spectrier, and Magearna are all Pokemon, we have to keep in mind, when building a team, but also in the general aspect of the current metagame and how they cenetralize the metagame in the future.

Thanks for reading and I hope y'all have a great day!
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
First, Ocelzolt is just plain scary. It has insane speed under sand and most common teams cannot deal with its Dragon/Ground/Fire coverage combined with the sheer power of Bolt Beak. (And I get to say "I told you so!" to everyone that disagreed with me when DLC2 was just new)

Well, time to redirect the discussion with my promised Kyurem post!

1607779779620.png


OBLITERATOR (Kyurem) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast / Earth Power​

This is the definition of a nuke. Choice Specs Modest Draco Meteor manages to be stronger than Tapu Lele, one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier. This alone gives Kyurem quite a nice niche. But one of Kyurem's best selling points as a wallbreaker is that most teams are not prepared for it. For starters, some of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier are water- or flying-types, which Kyurem can easily abuse. Most flying-types gets owned by Ice Beam while Pex and Slowbro gets demolished by Freeze-Dry. On top of that, Blissey gets 2HKOed by Focus Blast after minimal chip. Blissey, I beg you. And almost anything that doesn't resist Dragon gets wiped right off the map by the sheer power of a Draco Meteor. This makes Kyurem a great anti-meta threat, as most common Pokemon and archetypes can't find proper ways to deal with it. Rain have insane trouble with this, as Freeze-Dry alone can often crush 2/3 of their team. Also, going down the viability rankings, the highest ranked mon that can take a hit from the Focus Blast variant (besides AV Mage) is... Aegislash, at B rank, which gets 2HKOed by Earth Power. And I'm not even bother trying to find a mon that can take all five of Kyurem's moves. In case you are wondering though, everything that is above C+ that is not wearing an Assult Vest (and most stuff that is) cannot take a hit given Kyurem picks the correct move. Sure, sometimes they can take a Draco Meteor and heal as Kyurem is forced to switch due to the SpA drop, but that is pretty much forced, and any random teammate can just come in. In the present metagame, Kyurem is an amazing anti-meta breaker, and with the correct prediction it can often get a kill or a gigantic dent whenever it comes in.

Finally, if you are at low ladder, use this. The noobs down there will not see a Freeze-Dry coming on their water-types.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 348-410 (88.3 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 266-314 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Magearna: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (no Magearna runs this anymore but this just shows how strong Kyurem is)

Finally, I would like to speak a bit about Zapdos. Zapdos in rain is yet another mon that most teams aren't prepared for. Having two powerful STABs and a pseudo-STAB in Weather Ball in rain is often too much for opposing teams to swallow. And again, most common defensive Pokemon (besides Blissey, lol) cannot properly deal with Zapdos. So we have the holy trinity of anti-meta destruction: Sand Rush Dracozolt, Specs Kyurem, and Zapdos in rain. No one are prepared for them, and they are bound to create destruction wherever they go.

As I said, despite its flaws, weather is gonna be pretty good.

Edit: after going down the VR, this is the full list of viable Pokemon in the VR that can take a hit:
AV Magearna, Shuckle, Shedninja (lol), Grimmsnarl after Prankster Light Screen, Max SpD AV Slowking-G, end list
Let that sink in, folks.
 
Last edited:
Fumes, Sand Veil + Bright Power Garchomp is something I've actually looked into. I haven't used it nearly enough as I've been looking into more niche OU sets, and more recently, NU sets. Anyways, the combination of these two items leaves 100% accuracy moves down to a whopping 67.5%. It's pretty impressive assuming its left undisturbed. However, this set-up is just too easy to be ruined to be considered as competitive instead of a more direct offense. I mean, Hone Claws pokemon, while not as apparent, still do remain in the tier. However, as I was told about one of my sets, you still have to consider the niche. Although, this set can more directly be ruined by weather changers. Drizzle Pelipper is quite often run, and Defog users can lower your evasion. You also have to consider Knock Off users that will get rid of your Bright Powder, Skill Swap and Entrainment users that may erase your Sand Veil, and that your Sandstorm is still temporary. Since there are too many ways to ruin this set, I don't see it to be as viable as a straightforward offensive Garchomp, although that may just be my opinion.
Who uses hone claws / skill swap /entrainment anyway.
 
1: I was told to consider the niche, I believe in this same thread. So, if I have to ignore that just because we're dealing with a different person, that ain't right.

2: You ignored Knock off, Drizzle, Defog, and Sandstorm being temporary. :/
 
Fumes, Sand Veil + Bright Power Garchomp is something I've actually looked into. I haven't used it nearly enough as I've been looking into more niche OU sets, and more recently, NU sets. Anyways, the combination of these two items leaves 100% accuracy moves down to a whopping 67.5%. It's pretty impressive assuming its left undisturbed. However, this set-up is just too easy to be ruined to be considered as competitive instead of a more direct offense. I mean, Hone Claws pokemon, while not as apparent, still do remain in the tier. However, as I was told about one of my sets, you still have to consider the niche. Although, this set can more directly be ruined by weather changers. Drizzle Pelipper is quite often run, and Defog users can lower your evasion. You also have to consider Knock Off users that will get rid of your Bright Powder, Skill Swap and Entrainment users that may erase your Sand Veil, and that your Sandstorm is still temporary. Since there are too many ways to ruin this set, I don't see it to be as viable as a straightforward offensive Garchomp, although that may just be my opinion.
You know what, you're right. To counter sand veil chomp, I'm going to start running this garchomp set:

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Rush
- Earthquake

Nothing better than needing 2 set up turns to do anything against evasion, it's a very fair and balanced mechanic :)
 

fish anemometer

I ❤️HOLE
is a Tiering Contributoris the defending PU Circuit Champion
Hey, wanted to share some cool sets I think should see more usage to spice up the meta :)

To preface, I'm sure most people who stick their nose in the OU meta know of the infamous "Team 20" in the craing team archive. This is a team that has seen much usage in tournaments as well as ladder, unfortunately losing pretty much every time (besides Finchinator vs SOULWIND) ...

This is partially due to lack of surprise factor. Trapper Urshifu-R can't do it's job as a Pex lure, because Ushifu-R already being a rarity on non rain teams AND paired with a Suicune is too easy a giveaway.
Additionally, it doesn't even do a great job at killing Pex, it can get scald burnt and have it's pads knocked off and lose the 1v1.... So, overall using this thing is a huge L.

It got me thinking if there are any other cool trappers to use that aren't terrible at their job like Ursh-R and not boring as block+spite Pex, and it led me to something quite useful in a lot more situations than every other luremon (i think):


:ss/cinderace:
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Electro Ball
- Fire Spin
- Taunt
- Gunk Shot/High Jump Kick/Pyro Ball/U-turn/Super Fang

Trapper Cinderace
is likely the best lure-and-trap pokemon available rn. It's very easy to pretend you're a standard Cinderace set just waiting to be walled by a bulky water type. I really want to see some creative teams that take advantage of this in many ways.

Fire spin+taunt is pretty standard as far as trapping goes. Taunt on Cinder is really cool because it outspeeds most of the tier and prevents set up from things that would otherwise wall the lure set.
Electro ball is the move that blasts away bulky water types as well as some other fat "cinder checks" such as defensive moltres and Torkoal. Being an unexpected Toarkoal and Pelipper killer in 1 is p nice, as those mons love to stay in especially at full health. You don't even need to trap Peli, uninvested electro ball 1hkoes.
The last move is up to player preference, and it's usually a move regular Cinderace would run. Gunk is good for hitting fairies hard which is why it's my most used choice, HJK hits Garchomp and Heatran which usually take the place of bulky waters on teams without them, super fang+fast taunt is nice but revealing it alerts the opponent you're not a standard Cinderace.

Meta relevant Pokemon you can lure and eliminate with this: :toxapex: :slowbro: :slowking: :pelipper: :torkoal: :moltres: :weezing-galar: as well as other big ones depending on your 4th move.

High ladder replays: (1800-2000 elo):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242372774-v59psrhu7piwr8g8f3kuah066p5epalpw Pex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242322435-jdy2eupqn7mqpb5ip8wg3lwu2522bp7pw destroying rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242352616-sopsbd2gpji61gn0crrgnf1ezok80a0pw Slowbro
Bonus: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242913645-q6lcz3x3c0oj8ohjd74x921scdx9qeepw poor ox ;-;

Now to something quite underrated:

:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion @ Choice Band/Life Orb/Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance/Toxic/Iron Head


Terrakion is one of the best abusers of Future Sight as it destroys common futureport stops like Mandibuzz and has bulk and typing to not leave it vulnerable to death or 4x effective moves in situations where a player is willing to trade their clef for a Shifu/Mosa.
Eq and SD are moves that really allow it to tear the common defensive cores of today's teams to shreds. Also toxic on band sets for Slowbro/Tang. Justified makes Urshifu players at least think twice before clicking the braindead-move.

It definitely has competition at the moment (from 2 mons that might get banned), but it sure has a niche. No replays but trust me it's good. Cheers :smogduck:
 

Gross Sweep

Plan Ahead
is a CAP Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
One of the most interesting developments in this DLC2 meta to me is the evolution of Cinderace's moveset. Before its initial ban in DLC1 I firmly believed Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn was the best set, and probably the most commonly ran. You would have had to work hard to convince me to run any other set as it was such a good catch all to most defensive cores in the metagame. However, with new mons to beat this DLC the preferred set has seemed to change. Based off my experiences it feels like Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch has taken over as the most prominent set in the metagame. This is pretty wild to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly not having the ability to threaten Toxapex with Zen Headbutt is less than ideal to me. Also not utilizing U-turn to grab momentum while abusing Heavy Duty Boots just feels like a loss when it comes to opportunity cost. That said I can see the merit, since not being walled by Heatran, and having priority to help vs offensive threats like Spectrier in a metagame with more speedy Pokemon in general than DLC1 is practical.

Other sets like trapper Cinderace have even received mention, but most other sets fail to find the consistent usage and success as the one I mentioned earlier. Seeing this trend I obviously wanted to build a team that would utilize this Cinderace set while making up for its faults: lack of options vs Toxapex, and no ability to grab momentum through pivoting.


The first step was to find a way to deal with Toxapex reliably. I remembered a post by Finchinator earlier on in the thread that mentioned a Heatran set that ran both Lava Pume and Magma Storm as a way to lure in and trap Toxapex over the course of a game. Thought that would be a cool partner to start with as it helps with the problem at hand. Next I went with Slowking as I prioritized finding a Water resist to go with my Fire types, and FuturePort provided the team with another way to create situations to threaten Toxapex. Next I added Landorus-T who gave my team an Electric immunity, Ground immunity, some speed control as I went with Scarf. The pick also helps with the momentum issue. Between Teleport Slowking, U-turn on Lando, and even Magma Storm on Heatran the team does a fairly good job of keeping up momentum. Nothing to special about the EVs, still trying to find a good spread for bulky scarf sets. The only thing I'm really attached to is the speed which beats Jolly/Timid Mosa. Technically it only needs 204 to do so but that would leave it with 295 speed, and I don't like the idea of a speed tying Nidoking if Lando gets Knocked Off so I run 208. Like always Clefable is a top notch glue mon that provides the team with a lot of utility like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Fairy typing, Urshifu check, and other Clef things. Hydreigon was my last as it helps me not lose to Spectrier at preview, provides another Ground immunity (most of the time), and helps check Heatran since it would be easy for Slowking to get overloaded vs a team with Nidoking and Heatran. I threw this team together pretty quickly and only played a few games with it, but I like it thus far. At the very least it's a solid start I'll probably tinker with a bit more over time. Feel like it does a pretty good job of showing options that can help facilitate the Cinderace set.

I'm sure a new Cinderace set will be taking over the meta a few months from now, as Protean/Libero sets have proved to be extremely adaptive. I would encourage anyone looking at Cinderace to try out new techs, just make sure to acknowledge any shortcomings the set may have and build accordingly.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Personally like Pyro, Sucker, Zen, Bulk Up on Ace right now with stuff to wear down whatever this doesnt target well like Ursh-R to take care of Heatran. I feel like people for the most part have stopped switching Gunk Shot recipients except Slowbro into Ace and lot of Pex still roaming around. I've played around with other things like Life Orb and Adamant if not both together there's a lot of dimensions and ways you can utilize Ace for a team as noted above.
 

clean

is a Tiering Contributor
OMPL Champion
One of the most interesting developments in this DLC2 meta to me is the evolution of Cinderace's moveset. Before its initial ban in DLC1 I firmly believed Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn was the best set, and probably the most commonly ran. You would have had to work hard to convince me to run any other set as it was such a good catch all to most defensive cores in the metagame. However, with new mons to beat this DLC the preferred set has seemed to change. Based off my experiences it feels like Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch has taken over as the most prominent set in the metagame. This is pretty wild to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly not having the ability to threaten Toxapex with Zen Headbutt is less than ideal to me. Also not utilizing U-turn to grab momentum while abusing Heavy Duty Boots just feels like a loss when it comes to opportunity cost. That said I can see the merit, since not being walled by Heatran, and having priority to help vs offensive threats like Spectrier in a metagame with more speedy Pokemon in general than DLC1 is practical.

Other sets like trapper Cinderace have even received mention, but most other sets fail to find the consistent usage and success as the one I mentioned earlier. Seeing this trend I obviously wanted to build a team that would utilize this Cinderace set while making up for its faults: lack of options vs Toxapex, and no ability to grab momentum through pivoting.


The first step was to find a way to deal with Toxapex reliably. I remembered a post by Finchinator earlier on in the thread that mentioned a Heatran set that ran both Lava Pume and Magma Storm as a way to lure in and trap Toxapex over the course of a game. Thought that would be a cool partner to start with as it helps with the problem at hand. Next I went with Slowking as I prioritized finding a Water resist to go with my Fire types, and FuturePort provided the team with another way to create situations to threaten Toxapex. Next I added Landorus-T who gave my team an Electric immunity, Ground immunity, some speed control as I went with Scarf. The pick also helps with the momentum issue. Between Teleport Slowking, U-turn on Lando, and even Magma Storm on Heatran the team does a fairly good job of keeping up momentum. Nothing to special about the EVs, still trying to find a good spread for bulky scarf sets. The only thing I'm really attached to is the speed which beats Jolly/Timid Mosa. Technically it only needs 204 to do so but that would leave it with 295 speed, and I don't like the idea of a speed tying Nidoking if Lando gets Knocked Off so I run 208. Like always Clefable is a top notch glue mon that provides the team with a lot of utility like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Fairy typing, Urshifu check, and other Clef things. Hydreigon was my last as it helps me not lose to Spectrier at preview, provides another Ground immunity (most of the time), and helps check Heatran since it would be easy for Slowking to get overloaded vs a team with Nidoking and Heatran. I threw this team together pretty quickly and only played a few games with it, but I like it thus far. At the very least it's a solid start I'll probably tinker with a bit more over time. Feel like it does a pretty good job of showing options that can help facilitate the Cinderace set.

I'm sure a new Cinderace set will be taking over the meta a few months from now, as Protean/Libero sets have proved to be extremely adaptive. I would encourage anyone looking at Cinderace to try out new techs, just make sure to acknowledge any shortcomings the set may have and build accordingly.
Something else worthy of mention is a set I have been using a lot recently. U-turn/Pyro Ball/HJK/Court Change is a really strong Pivot and a great way to disrupt the ever present screens HO archetype. It's not always super safe to have Ace sit in on a potential threat and click Court Change, but it does alleviate a lot of the worry one might have when the opponent starts stacking hazards. It is also quite fast, so something like a suicide lead Mew, for example, has no way of preventing the hazard swap.
 
First, Ocelzolt is just plain scary. It has insane speed under sand and most common teams cannot deal with its Dragon/Ground/Fire coverage combined with the sheer power of Bolt Beak. (And I get to say "I told you so!" to everyone that disagreed with me when DLC2 was just new)

Well, time to redirect the discussion with my promised Kyurem post!

View attachment 299232

OBLITERATOR (Kyurem) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast / Earth Power​

This is the definition of a nuke. Choice Specs Modest Draco Meteor manages to be stronger than Tapu Lele, one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier. This alone gives Kyurem quite a nice niche. But one of Kyurem's best selling points as a wallbreaker is that most teams are not prepared for it. For starters, some of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier are water- or flying-types, which Kyurem can easily abuse. Most flying-types gets owned by Ice Beam while Pex and Slowbro gets demolished by Freeze-Dry. On top of that, Blissey gets 2HKOed by Focus Blast after minimal chip. Blissey, I beg you. And almost anything that doesn't resist Dragon gets wiped right off the map by the sheer power of a Draco Meteor. This makes Kyurem a great anti-meta threat, as most common Pokemon and archetypes can't find proper ways to deal with it. Rain have insane trouble with this, as Freeze-Dry alone can often crush 2/3 of their team. Also, going down the viability rankings, the highest ranked mon that can take a hit from the Focus Blast variant (besides AV Mage) is... Aegislash, at B rank, which gets 2HKOed by Earth Power. And I'm not even bother trying to find a mon that can take all five of Kyurem's moves. In case you are wondering though, everything that is above C+ that is not wearing an Assult Vest (and most stuff that is) cannot take a hit given Kyurem picks the correct move. Sure, sometimes they can take a Draco Meteor and heal as Kyurem is forced to switch due to the SpA drop, but that is pretty much forced, and any random teammate can just come in. In the present metagame, Kyurem is an amazing anti-meta breaker, and with the correct prediction it can often get a kill or a gigantic dent whenever it comes in.

Finally, if you are at low ladder, use this. The noobs down there will not see a Freeze-Dry coming on their water-types.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 348-410 (88.3 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 266-314 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Magearna: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (no Magearna runs this anymore but this just shows how strong Kyurem is)

Finally, I would like to speak a bit about Zapdos. Zapdos in rain is yet another mon that most teams aren't prepared for. Having two powerful STABs and a pseudo-STAB in Weather Ball in rain is often too much for opposing teams to swallow. And again, most common defensive Pokemon (besides Blissey, lol) cannot properly deal with Zapdos. So we have the holy trinity of anti-meta destruction: Sand Rush Dracozolt, Specs Kyurem, and Zapdos in rain. No one are prepared for them, and they are bound to create destruction wherever they go.

As I said, despite its flaws, weather is gonna be pretty good.

Edit: after going down the VR, this is the full list of viable Pokemon in the VR that can take a hit:
AV Magearna, Shuckle, Shedninja (lol), Grimmsnarl after Prankster Light Screen, Max SpD AV Slowking-G, end list
Let that sink in, folks.
I've used kyurem quite a bit but i've realised that focus blast and earth power are usually better than draco is most cases i've had as i've stated in my old post
So lately I've seen how a lot of people don't really use kyurem and kyurem is actually a great mon.
It has 5 main sets that i've seen on the ss ou ladder near the 1400-1900 areas
1. Sub Roost-
sub roost freeze dry earth power is a great set which counters common threats like heatran pex offesnive mag and most of rain while having quite abit of longivity with the new HEAVY DUTY BOOTS and Roost. the pressure ability is also very helpful.
2.Specs-
although this is kyurems best set [imo] not most of sets run this and even the ppl who use it imo use the ]wrong sets [imo] The best set according to me IS Freeze Dry Ice Beam Focus Blast and Earth Power
most specs kyurem run draco which isnt rly important for it [again only imo] while freeze dry hits water types ice beam is a more POWERFUL move when waters are gone or weakened .
Earth power can hit heatran magearna ttar the newly amazing ou mon slowking witch galar and melmetal when u cant risk a miss.
Focus Blast is there to ohko ttar 2hko blissey ohko heatran 2hko av melm with focus blast into earth power on the next switch
A LOT OF CALCS
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 224 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 306-360 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 316-374 (81.8 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 476-564 (123.3 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 195-229 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

3.Scarf- scarf kyurem is a great revenge killer with a speed of something like 475 idk and a great base special attack its quite a good scarfer on rain weak teams with freeze dry ice beam draco and focus blast.
4.Sub Roost v2- thiz was one of the most spammed dlc1 sets with freeze dry as its special move and icicle spear to kill physically weak mons. This was a pp staller set.
5.DD Kyurem- this is the worst set kyurem uses imo but it works on quite a few teams from what ive heard. This is a pp stalling offensive Kyurem that uses sub roost dd icicle spear.
Thank you for looking at this post and I hope ive done unova icy boi justice. Feel free to pm me for any questions. SAM OUT ! PS: Ttar is tyranitar and imo=in my opinion
Although I do agree about sand zolt being a huge threat as its only main counters if im correct are are spdef swampert and spdef hippo and u could actually use kyurem sand [I already made a few teams with that lol] very effectively although you stated that zapdos could only be beat by blissey tyrainitar is also a good zap check [as weather ball becomes rock] so maybe rain with single strike shifu could be good ? idek so anyways back to the kyurem topic. Although kyurem is sadly weak to rocks you could obviously just use boots but since specs has more damage you'l need hazard control. I've realised that if on sand or maybe even if not on sand excadrill works pretty well with earthquake iron head rapid spin and toxic and it can decimate all of the kyurem "checks". SAM OUT
 
Hey y'all,

I wanna talk about :Urshifu:-S, since it got brought up earlier in this thread and I think it's important to get different point of views on it.
So first of all a quick view on it, Urshifu-S has sure a centralizing effect on the metagame, which also counts for Pokemon like the currently suspected Pheromosa, the ghosty-horse Spectrier, and also to a lesser degree Magearna. But Urshifu-S is no different in centralizing the metagame to some degree, especially with Future-Port-Support, due to Slowbro and the less used Slowking, but it can also profit and benefit of Galar-Slowkings Future-Sight (allthough it has no Teleport, but its Future-Sight stuff still pressures a ton of the counterplay to Urshifu-S).

Urshifu-S is a strong wallbreaker, capable of using an insane ability in Unseen Fist, which all contacts moves go through Protect. Its great typing in dark/fighting helps it a lot to capitalize from its potential, as this typecombination is really great in the current metagame, with not many Pokemon being able to wall the dual-stabs + its coverage-options. With a great HP, and Defense-stat being both 100 and its amazing Attack-stat of 130 and its great Speed-tier being 97, it has the stats to be a threatening Wallbreaker as well. Furthermore it has different Sets, which it can use, be it Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Bulk Up, all its sets put in some work, and with the foremer two it can easily get Momentum via U-turn and with the latter it can become a dangerous breaker with Wicked Blow, Close Combat / Drain Punch, and Sucker Punch.

:Urshifu: (Single-Strike) Sets:

Urshifu @ Choice Band / @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Poison Jab / Iron Head

Urshifu @ Black Glasses / @ Life Orb

Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch​

these Set-options are the main-sets currently in the metagame and have different counterplay options, but first off, let's dive in into a more in-depth view about these two sets:

Choice Band / Choice Scarf: This set really hits hard,e specially in concjunction with Choice Band, Wicked Blow-spam is really free in the current metagame and hits baring physically defensive Clefable and physically defensive Tapu Fini everything else pretty hard. Choice Band-sets can further Urshifus wallbreaking potential due to the already very good and optimal Attack-stat. Choice Scarf, however, can be also a Set-option, due to how many Pokemon it threatens, due to the Speed-control this set gives, being able to outrun a vast majority of the metagame with a Scarf is pretty functionally and good. It can outrun faster threats such as CB-Pheromosa, Spectrier, Tapu Koko, offensive Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, Barraskewda (without rain), and Scarf-Lando-T. Both sets have the ability to run either Poison Jab or Iron Head to dish out a lot of damage on the aforementioned Clefable and Tapu Fini, especially coupled with a Choice Band. What really helps these both sets is the support, due to Future-Sight and Teleport from Slowbro as it can wear down the typical Checks to Urshifu and Urshifu can get past these Checks, with them taking damage from Futre-Sight and a always critting Wicked Blow or its coverage-options.

Bulk Up: This Set is seen more on hyper Offensive structures, be it Screens, Veil, or Hazard Stack HO, which it can make use of, to get a better position to Bulk Up. Bulk Up-sets have an overlapping counterplay to the Band- or Scarf-Set; physically defensive Clefable and Tapu Fini! Bulk Up-sets tend to run Close Combat more often than Drain Punch, but if you want to keep Urshifu for longer, a strong Drain Punch can help there, which is a nice tool for it. Sucker Punch gives some mind-games, especially when urshifu is already at +1 any player has to be careful around its mind-games made up by Sucker Punch.

I believe all Sets are really dangerous and have their different aspects of running through the metagame without any real drawbacks. Urshifu-S is a Pokemon, which shines more often than not during a battle and while it has its own flaws, the flaws by any means do NOT overshine how good Urshifu is.

But let's move on to another important aspect, the Counterplay to Urshifu!

These are the Pokemon, which can help versus it:
:Clefable:
:Tapu Fini:
:Toxapex:
:Landorus-Therian:
:buzzwole:
:kommo-o:
:togekiss:
I just wanted to add that Sucker Punch is an important slash on the banded set because it can actually nullify many sweepers such as Dragapult, Spectrier, or severely weakened Magearna or Kartana. Poison Jab is also an important slash on Bulk Up sets because with just a little chip, it can muscle through Clefable and Tapu fini which are Urshifu's most common counters. Personally, I think Bulk Up is only worth if you're running Poison Jab with another threatening mon like Cinderace that can chip fat.

As for the pokemon you listed, Kommo-o and Togekiss might be solid checks but they are outclassed by Clefable and Buzzwole and not optimal (as you mentioned), although I do agree they are respectable answers. Meanwhile Toxapex is only good if coupled with a Clefable or at least a Mandibuzz to eat Wicked Blow + Future Sight. Landorus-T has no business here to be honest because the offesnive sets are outsped and the defensive sets can't really touch or stop Urshifu. The best it can do is deter it from using Close Combat and switching into Magearna. I'd also argue Weezing-Galar is a solid answer, especailly with Wish support.

Hey, wanted to share some cool sets I think should see more usage to spice up the meta :)

To preface, I'm sure most people who stick their nose in the OU meta know of the infamous "Team 20" in the craing team archive. This is a team that has seen much usage in tournaments as well as ladder, unfortunately losing pretty much every time (besides Finchinator vs SOULWIND) ...

This is partially due to lack of surprise factor. Trapper Urshifu-R can't do it's job as a Pex lure, because Ushifu-R already being a rarity on non rain teams AND paired with a Suicune is too easy a giveaway.
Additionally, it doesn't even do a great job at killing Pex, it can get scald burnt and have it's pads knocked off and lose the 1v1.... So, overall using this thing is a huge L.

It got me thinking if there are any other cool trappers to use that aren't terrible at their job like Ursh-R and not boring as block+spite Pex, and it led me to something quite useful in a lot more situations than every other luremon (i think):


:ss/cinderace:
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Electro Ball
- Fire Spin
- Taunt
- Gunk Shot/High Jump Kick/Pyro Ball/U-turn/Super Fang

Trapper Cinderace
is likely the best lure-and-trap pokemon available rn. It's very easy to pretend you're a standard Cinderace set just waiting to be walled by a bulky water type. I really want to see some creative teams that take advantage of this in many ways.

Fire spin+taunt is pretty standard as far as trapping goes. Taunt on Cinder is really cool because it outspeeds most of the tier and prevents set up from things that would otherwise wall the lure set.
Electro ball is the move that blasts away bulky water types as well as some other fat "cinder checks" such as defensive moltres and Torkoal. Being an unexpected Toarkoal and Pelipper killer in 1 is p nice, as those mons love to stay in especially at full health. You don't even need to trap Peli, uninvested electro ball 1hkoes.
The last move is up to player preference, and it's usually a move regular Cinderace would run. Gunk is good for hitting fairies hard which is why it's my most used choice, HJK hits Garchomp and Heatran which usually take the place of bulky waters on teams without them, super fang+fast taunt is nice but revealing it alerts the opponent you're not a standard Cinderace.

Meta relevant Pokemon you can lure and eliminate with this: :toxapex: :slowbro: :slowking: :pelipper: :torkoal: :moltres: :weezing-galar: as well as other big ones depending on your 4th move.

High ladder replays: (1800-2000 elo):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242372774-v59psrhu7piwr8g8f3kuah066p5epalpw Pex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242322435-jdy2eupqn7mqpb5ip8wg3lwu2522bp7pw destroying rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242352616-sopsbd2gpji61gn0crrgnf1ezok80a0pw Slowbro
Bonus: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242913645-q6lcz3x3c0oj8ohjd74x921scdx9qeepw poor ox ;-;
I've actually been using Fire Spin Cinderace myself, and have found that 4th move Pyro Ball is the most consistent 4th move, for me at least. It has consistent damage for stuff like Clefable and Zapdos while still providing enough damage vs. specially defensive threats like Corviknight or Mandibuzz that Electro Ball can't get through alone.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
One of the most interesting developments in this DLC2 meta to me is the evolution of Cinderace's moveset. Before its initial ban in DLC1 I firmly believed Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn was the best set, and probably the most commonly ran. You would have had to work hard to convince me to run any other set as it was such a good catch all to most defensive cores in the metagame. However, with new mons to beat this DLC the preferred set has seemed to change. Based off my experiences it feels like Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch has taken over as the most prominent set in the metagame. This is pretty wild to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly not having the ability to threaten Toxapex with Zen Headbutt is less than ideal to me. Also not utilizing U-turn to grab momentum while abusing Heavy Duty Boots just feels like a loss when it comes to opportunity cost. That said I can see the merit, since not being walled by Heatran, and having priority to help vs offensive threats like Spectrier in a metagame with more speedy Pokemon in general than DLC1 is practical.

Other sets like trapper Cinderace have even received mention, but most other sets fail to find the consistent usage and success as the one I mentioned earlier. Seeing this trend I obviously wanted to build a team that would utilize this Cinderace set while making up for its faults: lack of options vs Toxapex, and no ability to grab momentum through pivoting.


The first step was to find a way to deal with Toxapex reliably. I remembered a post by Finchinator earlier on in the thread that mentioned a Heatran set that ran both Lava Pume and Magma Storm as a way to lure in and trap Toxapex over the course of a game. Thought that would be a cool partner to start with as it helps with the problem at hand. Next I went with Slowking as I prioritized finding a Water resist to go with my Fire types, and FuturePort provided the team with another way to create situations to threaten Toxapex. Next I added Landorus-T who gave my team an Electric immunity, Ground immunity, some speed control as I went with Scarf. The pick also helps with the momentum issue. Between Teleport Slowking, U-turn on Lando, and even Magma Storm on Heatran the team does a fairly good job of keeping up momentum. Nothing to special about the EVs, still trying to find a good spread for bulky scarf sets. The only thing I'm really attached to is the speed which beats Jolly/Timid Mosa. Technically it only needs 204 to do so but that would leave it with 295 speed, and I don't like the idea of a speed tying Nidoking if Lando gets Knocked Off so I run 208. Like always Clefable is a top notch glue mon that provides the team with a lot of utility like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Fairy typing, Urshifu check, and other Clef things. Hydreigon was my last as it helps me not lose to Spectrier at preview, provides another Ground immunity (most of the time), and helps check Heatran since it would be easy for Slowking to get overloaded vs a team with Nidoking and Heatran. I threw this team together pretty quickly and only played a few games with it, but I like it thus far. At the very least it's a solid start I'll probably tinker with a bit more over time. Feel like it does a pretty good job of showing options that can help facilitate the Cinderace set.

I'm sure a new Cinderace set will be taking over the meta a few months from now, as Protean/Libero sets have proved to be extremely adaptive. I would encourage anyone looking at Cinderace to try out new techs, just make sure to acknowledge any shortcomings the set may have and build accordingly.
That's a solid team and I agree with most of your analysis on Cinderace. Personally, I have been using a similar team with Specs Magearna > Heatran, allowing for Trick and some momentum based breaking. I was able to win with it in OU Champs R1 last weekend and have been grinding with it on the ladder a bit; the import can be found here. I do not see a need to invest more in SDef on Slowking (checks Modest Nidoking), but perhaps eating Tapu Lele and rogue Dracos a bit better can help in the long haul.

I do like how you integrate the Heatran set though. MagmaPlume offers so much unspoken utility and people oftentimes struggle to play around it before it is too late.

Also, I feel Sucker Punch Cinderace can still afford Adamant if you are not worried about Keldeo Rain (especially if you lack ZHB) or Zarude. Sucker hitting Latis is pretty big. I think Boots > any other item by a long shot, too, as LO makes you super prediction reliant and oftentimes is not worth it.
 
That's a solid team and I agree with most of your analysis on Cinderace. Personally, I have been using a similar team with Specs Magearna > Heatran, allowing for Trick and some momentum based breaking. I was able to win with it in OU Champs R1 last weekend and have been grinding with it on the ladder a bit; the import can be found here. I do not see a need to invest more in SDef on Slowking (checks Modest Nidoking), but perhaps eating Tapu Lele and rogue Dracos a bit better can help in the long haul.

I do like how you integrate the Heatran set though. MagmaPlume offers so much unspoken utility and people oftentimes struggle to play around it before it is too late.

Also, I feel Sucker Punch Cinderace can still afford Adamant if you are not worried about Keldeo Rain (especially if you lack ZHB) or Zarude. Sucker hitting Latis is pretty big. I think Boots > any other item by a long shot, too, as LO makes you super prediction reliant and oftentimes is not worth it.
Genuine question - is there any point to running 252+ speed on Defog/Roost Hydreigon? Urshifu, Tapu lele and Kyurem are all taking pitiful damage from Dark Pulse or EP, so I feel like running enough EVs to outspeed them is usually useless aside from finishing them off at low health in the rare occasion. I personally run just enough to outspeed Timid Nidoking or maybe a max speed Lando if the team is weak to HO. I feel like the extra points in HP or SpA feel really nice.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Genuine question - is there any point to running 252+ speed on Defog/Roost Hydreigon? Urshifu, Tapu lele and Kyurem are all taking pitiful damage from Dark Pulse or EP, so I feel like running enough EVs to outspeed them is usually useless aside from finishing them off at low health in the rare occasion. I personally run just enough to outspeed Timid Nidoking or maybe a max speed Lando if the team is weak to HO. I feel like the extra points in HP or SpA feel really nice.
I've thought long and hard about this one; ultimately, my answer is still yes. I prefer max speed on more teams than not with Defog Hydreigon. Being able to Roost off Choice Band Wicked Blow, get a timely revenge kill on a weakened Tapu Lele / Kyurem / Excadrill / Landorus-T, and soft-check Nidoking seems too (collectively) important to pass up on. The metagame has some speed tiers that are congested and Hydreigon is fortunate enough to be on the faster outskirts of one of these areas. In addition, you do not usually need more special attack or bulk investment for much here either. If you want to go with a bulkier Hydreigon, then I can see it justified, but you can check Spectrier, Heatran, and Crawdaunt regardless, which goes a long way I reckon.
 
Haxorus

In today's edition of "MidnightReaper once again channels Karen from Gen 2 energy", I've got an unconventional pick that I've been having a lot of fun with, Haxorus. Now you're probably thinking (a decently fast, powerful Dragon-type Physical attacker? Why on earth would I use Haxorus when Pokemon like Garchomp and Dragonite exist?) Simple, because we're not using Haxorus as a Dragon Dance sweeper (even though it gets access to it), we're not using it as a bulky cleaner (Dragonite gets Multiscale, so why even bother?). We're using Haxorus's unique traits to create a "tech slammer" set that can shut down walls like Toxapex and hazard setters while still being able to pound away at conventional answers with powerful attacks coming off of a monstrous 147 base attack stat (for comparison, that is only three points lower than Groudon). Also, just look at his scythe blade whiskers, awesome as hell.


Haxorus @ Life Orb (Rocky Helmet or Expert Belt have also been decent options during playtesting)
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- First Impression
- Close Combat​

(Additional options include Crunch, Aqua Tail, Poison Jab, Dragon Tail, Endeavor, Dragon Dance, Rock Slide, Swords Dance, Outrage, Hone Claws, etc)

The key to Haxorus's niche and where I've found it to be the most successful is access to a wide array of coverage moves for specific threats, access to a trifecta combination of Taunt, Earthquake, and the Mold Breaker ability. Neither Garchomp nor Dragonite has access to Taunt or Mold Breaker.

Taunt and Earthquake

Taunt means that prospective Will-O-Wisp users or hazard setters can't get a free switch without potentially risking shutting themselves down, and slower Pokemon such as Toxapex are completely shut down and then eliminated with Earthquake. Having Mold Breaker means that Taunt cannot be bounced back by Magic Bounce either. Base 97 Speed with Jolly is a wonky tier and it really wishes it was a bit higher, but for what it's trying to do it's completely usable (and it's also tied with Urshifu, who runs Adamant most of the time so you're likely always going to outspeed with a Jolly nature). Mold Breaker also means that Pokemon with Levitate such as Hydreigon, the Rotoms, and Latios don't get a free switch-in either on prospective Earthquakes. Pokemon such as Heatran, Regieleki, Excadrill, Nidoking, and many other threats cannot stand up to Earthquake (especially with prior chip).

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 593-702 (153.6 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 260-307 (65.9 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 278-328 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 229-270 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 385-455 (127 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

First Impression

Now you may be thinking, First Impression? Really? There are several great traits about using this move that give it a very usable place on Haxorus's moveset. First (hah), I've found that in my testing that handling Grassy Glide Rillaboom is a serious issue for a lot of faster tech attackers, and First Impression is my solution to that as it has increased +2 priority over +1 Grassy Glide, and has a serious chance to one-shot Rillaboom from full health, and always one-shots it with even the slightest bit of chip damage (with an Adamant nature, it's always an OHKO).

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 304-359 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

First Impression also gives Haxorus the ability to handle weakened late-game cleaners who have boosted their speed or are relying on a scarf to outspeed key threats.

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 307-361 (94.4 - 111%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 110-131 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Having access to the most powerful priority move in the game (not counting priority boosted by abilities or typing such as Yveltal's Dark Aura boosted STAB Sucker Punch) is a blessing, and it helps form the crux of this set in combination with Taunt's ability to shut down slower threats and the terror of Mold Breaker Earthquake.

Close Combat (and other options)

The last option really depends on your specific coverage needs. I personally recommend Close Combat as a reliable option to dispatch Urshifu-S and to hit Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Blissey, and Tyranitar for extremely high amounts of damage.

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 372-439 (109 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 221-263 (62.7 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 294-348 (113.5 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 276-325 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 686-811 (169.8 - 200.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 676-795 (94.6 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

However, if Close Combat is not your speed you can always try one of Haxorus's many plentiful coverage or tech options. Poison Jab handles Fairies, Crunch has some situational use. Dragon Dance can be a safety net to clean opponents late game, the options are almost endless with the scythe dragon.

Give Haxorus a try! He may take a little work and requires a team to be suited for his specific strengths, but I promise you won't be disappointed.

(Sorry to everyone who is waiting for me to make a Lunatone analysis, I'm still trying to find a way where the niche I see for it isn't outclassed)
 
Last edited:

Mars @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Protect
- Swords Dance

This Blaziken set beats the standard life orb FB/CC/Thunder Punch/Swords Dance set because it has the potential to actually sweep, come in multiple times per game, and eventually muscle through its checks opposed to killing one or two things before dying to chip + recoil like the standard set.

Generally I feel like Blaziken dies too early from Life Orb + Flare Blitz chip, which can be frustrating; Leftovers + Protect greatly helps offset this. Additionally, Protect also frees you from being revenge killed since there are plenty of threats that can easily outspend Blaziken at +1, so getting revenged is basically never an issue (besides priority, which Leftovers + Protect still helps with). With screens, I've found it rather manageable to even get up two Swords Dances sometimes. Protect and Leftovers really help you take the extra hit, survive one more flare blitz, and more reliably set up while still not at all being weak. While you may miss Life Orb in situations where you're +2 against a healthy Zapdos, Clef, etc., being able to set up a second Swords Dance all of a sudden becomes very doable with Leftovers and Protect. Withough Thunder Punch you might also find yourself getting frustrated being walled by more shit like Pelipper, Moltres, Slowbro, Tapu Fini, you can keep coming in and building a team to take advantage of this, while eventually being able to break through them with enough chip. Coming in multiple times isn't really possible with Life Orb, Rocks, and Flare Blitz recoil, but Leftovers and Protect give Blaziken the ability to come in a few times without dying to chip after like one kill. Another reason why Blaziken is a great user of Protect is that opponents take a huge risk trying to take advantage of a predicted Protect because of Swords Dance. While Thunder Punch + Life Orb is nice, I think Protect + Leftovers is the better set if you want Blaziken to actually sweep opposed to kill one or two pokemon before dying to chip. Sorry if my thoughts are a little jumbled, it's late but this really is a good set.

Replay
 
Last edited:

Katy

Banned deucer.

Mars @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Protect
- Swords Dance

This Blaziken set beats the standard life orb FB/CC/Thunder Punch/Swords Dance set because it has the potential to actually sweep, come in multiple times per game, and eventually muscle through its checks opposed to killing one or two things before dying to chip + recoil like the standard set.

Generally I feel like Blaziken dies too early from Life Orb + Flare Blitz chip, which can be frustrating; Leftovers + Protect greatly helps offset this. Additionally, Protect also frees you from being revenge killed since there are plenty of threats that can easily outspend Blaziken at +1, so getting revenged is basically never an issue (besides priority, which Leftovers + Protect still helps with). With screens, I've found it rather manageable to even get up two Swords Dances sometimes. Protect and Leftovers really help you take the extra hit, survive one more flare blitz, and more reliably set up while still not at all being weak. While you may miss Life Orb in situations where you're +2 against a healthy Zapdos, Clef, etc., being able to set up a second Swords Dance all of a sudden becomes very doable with Leftovers and Protect. Withough Thunder Punch you might also find yourself getting frustrated being walled by more shit like Pelipper, Moltres, Slowbro, Tapu Fini, you can keep coming in and building a team to take advantage of this, while eventually being able to break through them with enough chip. Coming in multiple times isn't really possible with Life Orb, Rocks, and Flare Blitz recoil, but Leftovers and Protect give Blaziken the ability to come in a few times without dying to chip after like one kill. Another reason why Blaziken is a great user of Protect is that opponents take a huge risk trying to take advantage of a predicted Protect because of Swords Dance. While Thunder Punch + Life Orb is nice, I think Protect + Leftovers is the better set if you want Blaziken to actually sweep opposed to kill one or two pokemon before dying to chip. Sorry if my thoughts are a little jumbled, it's late but this really is a good set.

Replay
Hey,

don't take it the wrong way, but this set faces a lot of problems: It can't bypass Pokemon, which are very big in the current metagame, Pokemon like Slowbro, Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Moltres, and Pelipper. I think it is a necesseity to have at least Thunder Punch instead of the Protect on this slot.

Tapu Fini just hardwalls this set and can retaliate with a strong Scald / Surf, whereas Toxapex can just Haze away the stat-boosts Blaze gained and can recover pretty freely, as it doesn't have to fear Thunder Punch or Earthquake at all, Slowbro can dish out a strong Scald or pressure it with Future Sight. Furthermore Slowbro can use Slack Off to stay healthy. Moltres and Pelipper can also wall this set, and can make use of Scorching Sands in the case of Moltres and Scald (occosionally Hurricane) in Pelippers case.

I feel this set, while being a fun set to try, is just getting walled by too many big Pokemon in the metagame and Thunder Punch at least is necessary on 1 of its slots to bypass these big Pokemon. Furthermore Leftovers might seems useful, but Blazikens fraility is - even with Leftovers in conjunction with Protect - still way too big to keep it really healthy in the long run.

Blaziken itself is in a weird metagame stage in general, as it faces too many walls even with Thunder Punch, Knock Off, Earthquake, or Stone Edge in its arsenal. The metagame is just not in Blazikens favor at all. I feel like to better utilize this set, i feel Thunder Punch is a necessity.

This is NOT meant to be a negative criticizm, just as a slight help, so Blaziken finds itself in a place where it can pressure at least the aforementioned defensive threats.

But in overall this set looks fun to use.
 
Last edited:
Hi I wanted to share some cool sets that I've been running recently with success.

These are not really any new innovations, as they've been used in past gens before, but I feel like they have their place in the current meta and I just wanted to share.

:xy/hydreigon:
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 12 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Superpower

Although I don't think Hydreigon's best set is Life Orb 3 attacks, it's still viable and hits really hard. It's also a good surprise factor. In this set, using Superpower instead of a second STAB move like Draco, or even a coverage move like Flash Cannon, Hydreigon is able lure out and 2HKO Blissey. With how common Blissey is, I think this is worth, especially if you have teammates that hate Blissey. It also has the plus of hitting Urshifu and opposing Hydreigons the hardest bar Draco Meteor.

12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 429-507 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 286-338 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:xy/nidoking:
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 36 Atk / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
- Superpower

Although I really enjoy having Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes as my last move on Nidoking, Superpower is a nice alternative from time to time that can lure and, also, 2HKO Blissey. Yes, you can run Taunt on Nidoking and slowly chip down Blissey, but that process is extremely delicate and is hard to pull off. Superpower doesn't have as much usage as Taunt, but if your objective is to eliminate Blissey from the game, it does the job way better.

36 Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 429-507 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 36 Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 286-338 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These set aren't really anything new, as anyone who has played gen 6 or even gen 7 UU has seen them before. They can be extremely effective in the current meta in luring out Blissey. It's not even hard at all, because you don't have to Superpower on the switch, as most Blissey will not Soft-Boil immediately.

I'm not a really much of saving replays, but here's a cool one if you want to see it in action. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1244380036-evt69gb228361gb1ygcmb144ndx1hvxpw
 
I’ll vouch for Superpower on Nidoking for sure. I’ve hit it on just as many Tyranitars as I have Blisseys, simply because what seems like an opportunity to set up sand and absorb a sludge wave as a midground is anything but. The normal worse case scenario for a play like that is taking an Earth Power - SpDef Ttar can live Fleurs Cannons and some Focus Blasts/Aura Spheres, this normally wouldn’t phase someone - and instead they lose the mon entirely.

Sacrificing a 4th slot to eat a hard counter that probably walked 1 or 2 other mons on your team is certainly worth it. Skewda runs psychic fangs, right?

I do have to address that its the kind of tech you pick up to address a weakness, though. Superpower on King literally just hits those two mons, you might click it on a Hydreigon someday. You run this specifically because Blissey frustrates your team’s structure and you’re not looking to change a mon to handle that.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top