Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[MrHands]

I've actually seen Specs with Steel Beam occasionally and it's caught me by surprise each time since I was used to some sort of defensive or physical variant. Steel Beam OHKOs so much of the tier after some small chip.

My poor Mandibuzz got absolutely clowned on.

But honestly, I can see mixed/physical being the de-facto Aegislash sets.

Just for fun I threw together some of the ludicrous damage calcs that Specs Steel Beam is capable of. I know it's 140 base power off Uber level sp attack and you practically kill yourself to do it but even so some of the things this move shit-wrecks is crazy.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-423 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-206 (49.4 - 58.5%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 282-333 (67.3 - 79.4%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana through Light Screen: 236-278 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 282-333 (78.1 - 92.2%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%)

Of course these Pokemon are specially bulky and / or resist it. Something like a Hippowdon or Rillaboom stand no chance of survival. I guess if you want a Pokemon that can click a button and kill itself and you, look no further than Aegislash.

 

[musiquepkmn]

Just for fun I threw together some of the ludicrous damage calcs that Specs Steel Beam is capable of. I know it's 140 base power off Uber level sp attack and you practically kill yourself to do it but even so some of the things this move shit-wrecks is crazy.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-423 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-206 (49.4 - 58.5%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 282-333 (67.3 - 79.4%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana through Light Screen: 236-278 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 282-333 (78.1 - 92.2%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%)

Of course these Pokemon are specially bulky and / or resist it. Something like a Hippowdon or Rillaboom stand no chance of survival. I guess if you want a Pokemon that can click a button and kill itself and you, look no further than Aegislash.

Imo these calcs should be with Timid, since you want to outspeed standard Heatran so you can Close Combat it twice.

 

[Azure]

I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?

I've mostly been using spell tag and sub toxic aegislash sets. I don't particularly like specs right now, because spell tag can net pretty similar damage while overall easing prediction against stall teams. Beating bulky teams is where I think aegi really shines.


Aegislash @ Spell Tag
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Close Combat
- Toxic

I like toxic over shadow sneak on the spell tag set, because I think putting mandibuzz on a timer is overall more important for aegi. The given spread maximizes aegi's damage output, guarantees that it outspeeds adamant Crawdaunt, and dumps the remaining EVs in HP.

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- King's Shield

sub toxic can overall make a really nice glue against powerful special breakers like specs lele, and sort of specs gear to an extent.

I personally dont like to use other aegi sets besides these ones.

 

[whatsecretproject]

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?

I've been seeing good results with the Sub Toxic set. It can come in on things like Specs Lele or Banded Grassy Glide and proceed to cripple ghost resists on the switch with Toxic and chip everything else down with a strong max attack Shadow Ball. Shadow Ball's 20% SpDef drop chance often forces defensive pivots out too. It's match-up dependent though and doesn't do much some games because of how prevalent Ace, EQ, and Knock Off are currently.

 

[jorm201]

I apologize if this is in the wrong spot, but here is a Pyukumuku set that can be used in gen 7, I'm not sure if gen 8 has leppa berry.


Pyukumuku (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Recycle
- Rest
- Recover


Leppa and Recycle lets it pp stall more walls than one. With Max sp.def it can take on more sp. attackers like Volcarona, Mega Venusaur, Amoongus. Look out for Knock Off, especially from Gliscor, who it can't out-stall without leppa.

 

[658Greninja]

I apologize if this is in the wrong spot, but here is a Pyukumuku set that can be used in gen 7, I'm not sure if gen 8 has leppa berry.


Pyukumuku (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Recycle
- Rest
- Recover


Leppa and Recycle lets it pp stall more walls than one. With Max sp.def it can take on more sp. attackers like Volcarona, Mega Venusaur, Amoongus. Look out for Knock Off, especially from Gliscor, who it can't out-stall without leppa.

Ah yes, Amoonguss. One of the most broken special breakers in the tier. Also M-Venu and Gliscor aren’t in Sword and Shield so this post is mostly irrelevant.

You can post it here tho
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion-v2.3666135/

 

[jorm201]

Ah yes, Amoonguss. One of the most broken special breakers in the tier. Also M-Venu and Gliscor aren’t in Sword and Shield so this post is mostly irrelevant.

You can post it here tho
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion-v2.3666135/

Thank you! I don't think Amoongus is a special breaker, but the sp.def investment can avoid a 2hko.

 

[YeetYolk07]

I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?

If you're a real chad you use head smash banded aegislash to screw over mandibuzz. I use with wish support so it stays healthy to soft check a lot of things. It definitely has a good niche in this meta. Most lele sets can't break it and it beats set-up mag(to a certain extent).

 

[Azure]

I've been wanting to use NP Hydreigon again, it seems like such a hard breaker to stop in so many matchups. Has anyone else been using it? What are some nice teammates?

 

[Katy]

I've been wanting to use NP Hydreigon again, it seems like such a hard breaker to stop in so many matchups. Has anyone else been using it? What are some nice teammates?

Nasty Plot Hydreigon can indeed work on more offensive teams with Teleport and U-turn support, as it gets it in freely and safely, good teammates are those which can take on the rising Dragapult, and also Cinderace and other faster threats such as Tornadus-T and Garchomp and Kartana.
I think great teammates would be Slowbro, Blissey, Magearna, and Landorus-Therian as they can check the problematic Pokemon Hydreigon struggles with. Corviknight can also help Hydreigon with Garchomp, opposing Landorus-T, and moreover Tapu Lele and it also has U-turn to bring Hydreigon in safely.

An offensive build can also work with Choice Specs Magearna, and Swords Dance Garchomp; or even Cinderace + Zeraora with Hydreigon works as they compliment each other very well and Zeraora sees a surge in usage again and can threaten Dragapult offensively with a strong Knock Off.

These are the teammates I would personally run for supporting Hydreigon and moreover to pressure problematic Pokemon for it.

 

[Red Raven]

I've been wanting to use NP Hydreigon again, it seems like such a hard breaker to stop in so many matchups. Has anyone else been using it? What are some nice teammates?

To add on to Katy's answer, Zapdos is an incredible partner for any slow but powerful attackers and Hydreigon is no exception. The u turn spammers like Cinderace or Dragapult are rendered useless for the rest of the battle if they get staticed. If that doesn't work then there's always the threat of random discharges. Ferrothorn is also another great partner due to thunder wave and of course, the ever obknockxious knock off. It is also a reliable paralysis spreader as guys like Cinderace like coming in on it assuming its gonna go for a hazard or leech seed and are hit by a surprise thunder wave. Surprisingly, I barely encounter any thunder wave Ferrothorn

Another one of Hydreigon's main roadblocks is Blissey, which you would need two or three nasty plots just to power thru with draco meteor so someone like Cinderace or Kartana or even magma trap Heatran could work

Finally, poison or steel types are great partners for Hydreigon. One of its biggest issues and something that cannot be dealt with by paralysis is Tapu Koko with dazzling gleam. Galarian Slowking is tremendous for this role as it can also be irritating with its like, near limitless movepool while posing a threat via random poisoning. Scarfers like Landorus Therian and the rare scarf Garchomp can also put in work against Tapu Chicken

 

[Hobie]

Hey guys, I was fairly active in playing OU at the start of Crown Tundra, but I dropped off playing a while ago. I wrote the Zapdos analysis and figured I should update it to match with the current metagame. How is Zapdos doing and are its main sets still these?

Sets

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Discharge
- Heat Wave/U-Turn

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb/Choice Specs
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Hurricane
- U-turn/Volt Switch
- Roost/Heat Wave/Weather Ball

If there are any new sets that work well please let me know, as well as if there have been any massive shifts in Zapdos' viability in the past couple of months.

 

[Katy]

Heavy-Duty Boots and the reaction to them:
/ ​

We've seen a lot of pivoting in SPL with the influx of Zeraora, and the all so prominent Cinderace which both wear the good item Heavy-Duty Bots to overcome their weak point in dealing with entry hazards to be able to pivot around more often and in a more reliable way, with the item Heavy-Duty Boots being really good at what they're doing I feel a trend is going forward into adapting to that situation currently.

Pokemon such as don't run their own Heavy-Duty Boots 100% of the time anymore, as they want to punish hard to punish Pokemon such as Cinderace in a way to chip them down with Rocky Helmet, the same could be said about our Bunker-Pokemon, which strikes back in a revenge with carrying Rocky Helmet on its own.

also adapted well to that with punishing Cinderace and with running Baneful Bunker to also punish and cripple Zeraora for the rest of the game. Cinderace and Zeraora are the big ones which carry Heavy-Duty Boots currently, especially on VoltTurn Offense to pressure the opposing team as much as possible. But with Slowbro and Toxapex wearing Rocky Helmet more often currently to punish them is a way to keep them at bay. One would argue that Heavy-Duty Boots might be too much and it was heavily discussed in earlier stages of the game, but with the adaptation to them I feel like there is at least a few countermeasure to these dangerous Pokemon. I am more than curious how the metagame will adapt more to the influx of these fearsome Wallbreakers.

Knock Off users such as Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian and Toxapex can do a great job at removing the opposing teams items, there is also surging up in usage in SPL with Knock Off on its blades, to remove items, and it showed it is a great wallbreaker as well, which I want to Highlight especially. Other great Knock Off users include Rillaboom, which I still feel like is one of the best Grass-types out there alongside Tangrowth which makes a comeback recently.

is also a great option to punish in different ways with Knock Off and carrying Rocky Helmet simultaniously it is a great Pokemon to keep Zeraora in check and it doesn't stop there; Ground-types like Garchomp and Landorus-Therian getting checked as well, although it lost Hidden Power Ice to reliably check them, but with the defensive set it can easily keep them at bay, which is why I think this Pokemon deserves a special mention as a great Grass-type currently.

Other noteable threats:
ever since Spectrier left, I feel Dragapult is with its natural high Speed tier the premiere Ghost-type again; Choice Specs hits hard and the Hex set is still a promising tool for teams.
is a great Pokemon with checking Tapu Lele, Garchomp and Landorus-Therian and its assets to U-turn out and getting in a teammate safely is very appreciated currently.
is great as a wallbreaker and a pivot, I feel like the defensive set has great measures currently with Knock Off and U-turn giving that Pokemon alongside Heavy-Duty Boots a very great and appreciated role on plenty of teams.

 

[Finchinator]

Check out the SS OU playerbase survey, please provide your thoughts: click here!

 

[Azure]

what have you guys been using on rain lately? I've been wanting to try it out some more, just looking for some ideas on how to make a really effective rain

 

[Red Raven]

what have you guys been using on rain lately? I've been wanting to try it out some more, just looking for some ideas on how to make a really effective rain

On my own rain team, I have a max hp and max def Pelipper and Ferrothorn, specially defensive Swampert, band Barracuda, specs Keldeo and np Tornadus Therian. It's the only consistent rain team that I've ever built. There's room for changes but I just prefer what I call a 'standard rain structure' that consists with the first four mons as those always yield me consistent results. The fifth slot can be any bird that has hurricane or thunder, or both while the last one is anything with a water type move, thunder or hurricane

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

what have you guys been using on rain lately? I've been wanting to try it out some more, just looking for some ideas on how to make a really effective rain

Peli is the only one that's consistent on rain. After that, mons I've tried in rain are Magearna, Ferro, Pert, Seis, Zap, Torn, Barra, Daunt, LO Kingdra (Specs feels bad a bit), Chomp, Blissey (mostly for Kyurem, Rocks, Pivot), RapidShifu(?), Thundy T. Could try Glowking jut cuz fuck Pex

 

[ViZar]

Like the last time we had a survey, I'd like to share my thoughts on the Pokémon in question.



How do you feel about Cinderace?
I gave it a 4 out 5 rating. The combination of it's speed, attack, movepool, ability and Heavy-Duty Boots boost it to the top and make it a force to reckon with. It has very few checks and it can take advantage of them via its moves. U-Turn can be easily spammed against Toxapex and Slowbro and provide momentum. Of course Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin Garchomp punish this idea, however from that point onward, Cinderace doesn't have to use U-Turn.
Gunk Shot can potentially screw up Slowbro, Toxapex can be 1v1 when it packs Zen Headbutt and Garchomp has no recovery and is forced to rest. You could argue that it has a 4MSS, since it needs to run Pyro Ball and U-Turn. From there on it has to decide between Gunk Shot (for fairies and poison on Slowbro), High Jump Kick (for Blissey and Tyranitar), Zen Headbutt (for Toxapex) and Sucker Punch (for faster Pokémon). Electro Ball is also something that can consider putting on your Cinderace since it can screw up its water type checks, which can even be boosted by Electric Terrain provided by a great teammate in Tapu Koko.
Speaking of which, it's true that it has a 4MSS, but it teammates can help it to deal with it. Spikes can help with Toxapex and so does Future Sight. As mentioned Koko can help it with its Water type checks and Garchomp can deal with bulky Pokémon that weak to ground while Cinderace can help it to deal with Skarmory, Corviknight and the fairies.
While many people would like to have a Magearna suspect, I would say that Cinderace is more of a thread and more restricting. Cinder doesn't have the immediate power of Magearna, but it is faster and can deal with faster Pokémon without set up. Life Orb sets give Cinderace more power, but being honest LO Cinderace sucks. You looses longevity due to its Stealth Rock weakness and Life Orb chip, while Rocky Helmet and Rough just reduce your chances of getting in. Heavy-Duty Boots are just better and on more reason, why it is difficult to deal with.


How do you feel about Magearna?
While I said that Cinderace is more restricting, doesn't mean that Magearna is less of a threat. It has a great typing, stats and ability with a very wide movepool. You don't know what set it runs, until one of your Pokémon is severely damaged or KOed. Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Shift Gear, Calm Mind sets and many more are difficult to deal with since you don't what Pokémon of your team can check it.
Ground types can deal with it, but when it Shift Gears on the Switch or has already set up it can just Ice Beam your Nidoking, Garchomp or Landorus-Therian, while something like Swampert who isn't weak to Ice can dealt with via Fleur Cannon. Heatran resists it's Stabs and has the bulk to tank its other moves, assuming it doesn't have Aura Sphere or Focus Blast. Toxapex can clear its boosts with Haze, but when Magearna is running Thunderbolt, it is lights out.
When provided with status, hazards or screens support, it can steamroll through teams without much effort. One lucky turn, prediction or otherwise a free turn can immediatly make the game a downhill battle. There is some counterplay though, Latios can prevent it from switching in, because of Mystical Fire, while the many U-Turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn and Teleport users can bring in a Ground or Fire type against it, so they can take advantage of a Magearna that doesn't set up yet and is probably slower. I still think think that we should consider it for a suspect, but I think Cinderace should be our top priority right now. 4 out of 5 ranking.


How do you feel about Toxapex? 2 Not Broken
Toxapex isn't as much of an annoyance as it was in DLC1. There are Pokémon that can easily take advantage of it and there's some counterplay to it. Cinderace, Magearna, Volcarona are potentially Pokémon that it can check and beat however they have moves to threaten Toxapex with or they can take advantage of it via U-Turn and Volt Switch. Strong Ground types like Garchomp, Landorus-T, Nidoking and strong Electric types like Tapu Koko and Zapdos are common, useful and beat Toxapex or they can set up, lay Stealth Rock, pivot or dent the opponents other Pokémon. The presence of psychics like Tapu Lele, Slowking-G, Slowbro and Latios doesn't help much.
It's still a great Pokémon, don't get me wrong. It has great bulk, Regenerator and fantastic moves in Haze, Knock Off, Scald, Toxic and much more. It isn't the splashable wall, it's used to be. I gave it a 2 out of 5 Ranking.


How do you feel about Tornadus-T?
I gave it a 1 rating, but after some games I would consider givint it a 2 rating. Tornadus-T doesn't have Roost like the other birds, but thanks to HDB and Regenerator it can stay healthy throughout a game. Its speed and utility options in Defog, U-Turn, Taunt and Knock Off make a solid Pokémon that's worth to take account for. Nasty Plot is a scary set, however the problem is that you have to rely on inaccurate moves to deal damage, but it gets the job done. It's speed makes it fantastic too. It pairs really well with other Regenerators like Slowking-Galar, Slowbro and Toxapex. I can see how it might be frustrating, but I'm not convinced that it is broken or restrictive. My opinion might change in the future, but that's how I feel for Tornadus-T right now.


How do you feel about Teleport? 3 Not Sure
I would give it a 3 out of 5. Teleport isn't broken per se, but the main abusers of it make it frustrating to deal with. Slowbro checks a few physical attackers and with Regenerator, it can heal of the damage, while getting a Pokémon like Cinderace in safely. Blissey checks almost all special attackers reliably and it can spread status, set-up Stealth Rock or it can just Teleport out of battle. Clefable can Teleport into a teammate and heal it with Wish, but I'm not sure if it is that good right now. Overall, I think that Teleport that is worth looking at, but not now.


Should we consider unbanning Zamazenta-C?
Last Survey I gave it a 5 rating, meaning I think that it should absolutely be considered for a test, but now I gave it a 3 rating. After thinking for a while, it doesn't feel right to unleash it for OU yet. After some time where the Meta has stabilised, we could consider testing it. I look forward for it in the future.


Should we consider unbanning Darmanitan-G?
1 out of 5, absolutely not. It basically has Choice Scarf and Choice Band equip or with a CB it has a nuclear attack stat. With this Pokémon every battle becomes a prediction play, but even if you resist its attack, it still leaves devastating damage. Plus it has U-Turn which is really spammable. Sure it has a Stealth Rock weakness, but there are reliable ways to get rid of them and starting at 76% health doesn't matter when it's a late game scenario where you can just stay in and click one move. Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Heat resist all of its attacks (assuming you take the standard set before it was banned: Icicle Crash, Flare Blitz, Earthquake, U-Turn), but those two have no reliable recovery and aren't very good in the current meta to begin with. I don't see it being balanced or unbanned at all.


Should we consider unbanning Zygarde?
I gave Zygarde a 2 out of 5, because it isn't has bad as Galarian Darmanitan, but still no. It has great typing, great bulk, a riskless and spamable Stab, two great set up options in Dragon Dance and Coil, Substitute and Glare. Those attributes make Zygarde a very unhealthy and annoying presence. Necessitating checks/counters like Clefable and Buzzwole is restricting. Maybe sometimes in the future won't be that obressive, but I can't see it being unbanned in the near future or at all.

So, here are my thoughts on the questions, I think once Cinderace and Magearna leave the tier, the meta game will be in a much more healthier spot. From their on we'll have to see how the meta develops and look some threats that might become obressive or restricting.

Anyways, have a nice day and stay safe.
Cya!

 

[AM]

The Zamenta, G-Darm, Zygarde questions were hopefully just troll questions to see who actually is concerned for health of meta. I kept my answers short because it's beating a dead horse to say Mag and Cinderace are broken, even more so with Urshifu leaving the tier.

 

[Red Raven]

Since there are some shared thoughts on the survey, I might as well share mine since there's no harm to it. I'm not gonna put the exact rating since I did the survey yesterday and I already forgot what I gave them




I don't feel like this mon is broken. I've always just considered this as a giant irritation but not broken. Yes, it has a wide movepool and a really great speed tier but it's also somewhat limited. I've never had a problem with this mon ever since the tier sort of calmed down. That's probably because I keep spamming Ferrothorn and Zapdos with max hp max def. It's oddly satisfying seeing a Cinderace looking to absorb a leech seed and u turn out due to pyro ball threat only to get paralyzed while Zapdos has static, that's all that needs to be said. Even tho I think this mon is kinda ridiculous, I don't really feel like it's banworthy. There is also another reason for that and it has something to do when there was a question along the lines of 'do you have other concerns' or whatever so I'll type in that part later and it has some sort of relationship on why I don't think it's banworthy



I hate this mon. I legit hate whoever in gamefreak designed this dumb thing. I think this should be quick banned. The fact that it can choose which pokemon it's gonna lose to is already annoying enough and there is always the possibility of you losing a mon to it while trying to scout its set, which could easily get out of control. I'm not gonna rant about this for too long. I'm pretty sure I gave this one a five as every single battle, I have to worry about whether or not I'm gonna lose to this thing



Uhm, why is this here? That was what I legitimately thought when I saw it on the survey. There's probably some stuff about this during the isle of armor so I apologize if I miss anything as I only started playing after crown tundra dropped. While I do hate how hellish this thing is to switch into, I don't think it is even remotely broken



I don't think this mon is broken simply because of one thing, rng. If something relies on rng to be a threat, I am never gonna think it is ban worthy. This mon is literally at the mercy of a thirty percent. Yes it can break apart entire teams with nasty plot boosted attacks, has utility that rivals even Landorus Therian and a great speed tier, at the end of the day, it's still rng dependent and anything that relies on rng is never gonna be consistent because rng. Under rain, this thing is broken but I'm not particularly sure if rain is that good atm. If it does go for a utility set, then it's even more not broken. Its utility set existed last gen and it wasn't even broken

Teleport

I don't think it is ban worthy. It is very annoying to deal with due to its users having incredible longevity but the fact that it has negative priority also makes it somewhat exploitable. Taunt is also a thing and while not all mons carry taunt, it's still an option. Like with Cinderace, the main reason why I don't think it is ban worthy is related to the 'other concerns' part so I'll mention it later



I have no idea what to think on this. I didn't even know this pokemon existed until I remembered the boxart on sword and shield. I honestly don't know what to think on this as I'm not familiar with this mon at all



Like with Zamazenta, I'm not gonna comment too much on this. I only started playing when crown tundra dropped so I wasn't around when this was allowed. I did have some conversations that talked about this thing and if it is true that its ability is a built in choice band, I don't think it should be allowed since you'd have to sacrifice a previous moveslot for protect



I'm not exactly sure what to think on this one. When it was still around, I never had a problem dealing with it and yes it was incredibly annoying, it was more like just another Cinderace to me. The main reason why I think this is the same as Tornadus Therian, rng. This mon can easily derail because it usually relied on parahax and has a no risk button in thousand arrows but its attack is not that great and is outsped by a lot of mons. I'm kinda neutral at this one as while I don't want it back in the tier, I wouldn't mind it being in it as well

Now, for the last part, the other concerns

Heavy-Duty Boots

Now, I mentioned that this part is why I believe Cinderace and teleport aren't banworthy, the boots. If Cinderace didn't have boots, stealth rock just straight up ruins it. I think boots is what really pushes Cinderace over the edge. It literally has an infinite number of switches due to how this thing negates hazards. While teleport users like Slowbro do not carry boots all the time, that is mostly because of Cinderace. Regardless, I think boots really pushed the mons kept in check by hazards to go berserk. Yes, knock off is a thing but you have to work hard to knock off the boots, not to mention that your opponent can simply switch out to something that doesn't mind losing its item

Bottom line is, I think boots should be looked at first before Cinderace. It just makes something like Volcarona an even bigger threat because it's not crippled upon switch in while many of its answers are. If boots gets banned, then that means that to use someone like Cinderace, you actually have to put in effort to get it in instead of just near mindlessly getting it on the field. Banning boots would hurt the birds but really, Zapdos and Tornadus Therian have been dealing with rocks for over a decade now and have actually thrived in its presence while Moltres, well, doesn't exactly have that good of a place in ou right now

This is the part on why I don't think Cinderace is ban worthy. The fact that Cinderace, and many other mons can just switch in near unpunished just straight up elevates their danger level. I even think that boots removes the part where you have to carefully consider options because you will be punished just by switching

Those are my thoughts anyway. I really think that Magearna and boots are broken but nothing else


PS

Hide

Second biggest reason why I wanna get rid of boots, to kick Dragonite out of ou. I hate how Dragonite is in a tier higher than Salamence

 

[BitBitio]

Yeah not gonna lie
None of the unbans in the playerbase survey are gonna happen.
For those still carrying hope for GDarm, Zygarde, and Zamazenta-C to drop down, let me explain a few issues with that. (However, I personally am indifferent to a Zama-C test, it’s just not gonna happen.)

The “No-Unbans” Post​

Before I get into this, let me go over some important Smogon tiering policy-
1. Complex bans aren’t happening. Okay, we aren’t gonna unban combinations, individual aspects, and parts of Pokémon in order to make the Pokémon in question not broken. This means no Zen GDarm unbans. GDarm itself is completely broken- I’ll go over it again in a sec- so we aren’t gonna just ban Gorilla Tactics. The only example I can think of where there was a complex ban in recent memory was the Swift Swim+Drizzle ban in BW OU which I personally disagree with, but it isn’t current, nor something that will happen in the near future.

2. If an unban can potentially be not broken, then this unban ought to happen. We saw this most recently at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame- Genesect, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Landorus-I, Magearna, Melmetal, Cinderace, Zygarde, Blaziken, and Pheromosa were unbanned. Additionally, the already problematic Urshifu-SS and the potentially problematic Spectrier were not banned. Of all of these, guess what? Only four remain: Magearna, Cinderace, Melmetal, and Blaziken. The first two of these are arguably broken, likely due for a suspect, and last time each was suspected in SS OU, they were banned. Blaziken should potentially be much better after the theoretical ban of Ace, and should Blaziken prove problematic following this, then Blaziken will be banned too. Melmetal will be fine based on its current standing in the metagame, and even if it did end up broken it’ll just be banned too. With all of these unbans, we see every single unban bar Blaziken and Melmetal either gone or on the chopping block, in addition to the suspects and bans of Spectrier and Urshifu-SS. So why did all of these get unbanned in the first place? The answer is simple: they each had the potential to be balanced in the tier. Sure, it was heavily unlikely for most of them, but it was worth giving it a try due to the fact that every once in a while, we have a Melmetal or a Blaziken that isn’t actually broken, and adds to the metagame. At the start of Gen 8, there was an Aegislash unban due to its nerfs and general power creep and guess what- Aegislash is actually a really cool addition to the metagame!





However, let me go over why I don’t think that any of these unbans are happening individually and why it makes sense with the points I’ve made earlier.





Recently unbanned and quickbanned, Zygarde was very much broken when it was around last time, as well as in National Dex, and no metagame changes that make the metagame more hostile to Zygarde have really occurred. I guess Pult can revenge it a little easier behind Sub since it no longer is competing with Spectrier, and that’s the only change. This is not enough of a change to possibly merit an unban. After a single Dragon Dance, Pult can no longer revenge Zygarde, and with slight bulk investment, Zygarde can avoid a KO from Draco on the Boots Pivot set. The point is that in no way is Zygarde gonna be unbanned.





When I saw this one on the survey, I started laughing. Garm is broken, Garm is broken, Garm is broken. Anyone who has been watching either OU or NatDex this gen knows how absurd Garm is, and most people can see that it’s broken just on principle. It’s not gonna get unbanned, so it shouldn’t be tested. Additionally- Zen Garm is not gonna be unbanned. That would constitute a complex ban- banning Gorilla Tactics makes no sense because Huge Power is an ability that outright outclasses GTactics and is not broken on Azumarill nor Diggersby- and one cannot simply ban the combination of GTactics and Garm- that’s a complex ban. Other bans with similar principles but different circumstances that I just wanted to go over quickly are banning Libero but not Ace (sorry, but Libero isn’t broken in OU on Raboot and therefore Libero cannot be banned), and banning Arena Trap as a foil to the “ban Libero” argument- Arena Trap is proven to be broken across every generation in which it exists save for Gen 3 (arguably still broken), and one might say that banning it affects Diglett and Trapinch down in lower tiers, but they have such impracticality terrible stats and movepools that they aren’t worth using, and additionally, different tiering policy in relation to Little Cup means that they still have access to Arena Trap in that metagame.





Now this one is a bit different- Zamazenta-C is terrible in Ubers, but has never been tested in OU. There have been several lengthy discussions in regards to Zamazenta-C, and honestly, I think that it would be quite broken. It possesses a ton of natural bulk, which means that it is nearly impossible to OHKO with a faster Pokémon that is in the B tier or above in OU. I calced it. Barring a Scarf Victini V-Create or Blue Flare, pretty much no offensive counterplay threatens Zama-C with a KO. As a result, defensive counterplay is the better solution, and even then, Howl and Zama’s coverage let it beat nearly every OU threat head on. That being said, it technically should be considered for a retest as all discussion thus far has been theoretical. I don’t think it would prove healthy, but it’s the only one of the three unbans in the survey that could possibly happen.



Hopefully this helped clear up some stuff for people, I’m writing literally this entire post from my phone so I apologize if this sounds inarticulate. As for my thoughts in regards to the rest of the survey, I think that both Ace and Mag are suspect worthy, I think that the Pex is not suspect worthy, and I believe that Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele will be suspect worthy down the line. The metagame is in a pretty good place right now, we just need to get rid of the last of the broken stuff and we’ll be good to go!

 

[musiquepkmn]

Yeah not gonna lie
None of the unbans in the playerbase survey are gonna happen.
For those still carrying hope for GDarm, Zygarde, and Zamazenta-C to drop down, let me explain a few issues with that. (However, I personally am indifferent to a Zama-C test, it’s just not gonna happen.)

The “No-Unbans” Post​

Before I get into this, let me go over some important Smogon tiering policy-
1. Complex bans aren’t happening. Okay, we aren’t gonna unban combinations, individual aspects, and parts of Pokémon in order to make the Pokémon in question not broken. This means no Zen GDarm unbans. GDarm itself is completely broken- I’ll go over it again in a sec- so we aren’t gonna just ban Gorilla Tactics. The only example I can think of where there was a complex ban in recent memory was the Swift Swim+Drizzle ban in BW OU which I personally disagree with, but it isn’t current, nor something that will happen in the near future.

2. If an unban can potentially be not broken, then this unban ought to happen. We saw this most recently at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame- Genesect, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Landorus-I, Magearna, Melmetal, Cinderace, Zygarde, Blaziken, and Pheromosa were unbanned. Additionally, the already problematic Urshifu-SS and the potentially problematic Spectrier were not banned. Of all of these, guess what? Only four remain: Magearna, Cinderace, Melmetal, and Blaziken. The first two of these are arguably broken, likely due for a suspect, and last time each was suspected in SS OU, they were banned. Blaziken should potentially be much better after the theoretical ban of Ace, and should Blaziken prove problematic following this, then Blaziken will be banned too. Melmetal will be fine based on its current standing in the metagame, and even if it did end up broken it’ll just be banned too. With all of these unbans, we see every single unban bar Blaziken and Melmetal either gone or on the chopping block, in addition to the suspects and bans of Spectrier and Urshifu-SS. So why did all of these get unbanned in the first place? The answer is simple: they each had the potential to be balanced in the tier. Sure, it was heavily unlikely for most of them, but it was worth giving it a try due to the fact that every once in a while, we have a Melmetal or a Blaziken that isn’t actually broken, and adds to the metagame. At the start of Gen 8, there was an Aegislash unban due to its nerfs and general power creep and guess what- Aegislash is actually a really cool addition to the metagame!





However, let me go over why I don’t think that any of these unbans are happening individually and why it makes sense with the points I’ve made earlier.





Recently unbanned and quickbanned, Zygarde was very much broken when it was around last time, as well as in National Dex, and no metagame changes that make the metagame more hostile to Zygarde have really occurred. I guess Pult can revenge it a little easier behind Sub since it no longer is competing with Spectrier, and that’s the only change. This is not enough of a change to possibly merit an unban. After a single Dragon Dance, Pult can no longer revenge Zygarde, and with slight bulk investment, Zygarde can avoid a KO from Draco on the Boots Pivot set. The point is that in no way is Zygarde gonna be unbanned.





When I saw this one on the survey, I started laughing. Garm is broken, Garm is broken, Garm is broken. Anyone who has been watching either OU or NatDex this gen knows how absurd Garm is, and most people can see that it’s broken just on principle. It’s not gonna get unbanned, so it shouldn’t be tested. Additionally- Zen Garm is not gonna be unbanned. That would constitute a complex ban- banning Gorilla Tactics makes no sense because Huge Power is an ability that outright outclasses GTactics and is not broken on Azumarill nor Diggersby- and one cannot simply ban the combination of GTactics and Garm- that’s a complex ban. Other bans with similar principles but different circumstances that I just wanted to go over quickly are banning Libero but not Ace (sorry, but Libero isn’t broken in OU on Raboot and therefore Libero cannot be banned), and banning Arena Trap as a foil to the “ban Libero” argument- Arena Trap is proven to be broken across every generation in which it exists save for Gen 3 (arguably still broken), and one might say that banning it affects Diglett and Trapinch down in lower tiers, but they have such impracticality terrible stats and movepools that they aren’t worth using, and additionally, different tiering policy in relation to Little Cup means that they still have access to Arena Trap in that metagame.





Now this one is a bit different- Zamazenta-C is terrible in Ubers, but has never been tested in OU. There have been several lengthy discussions in regards to Zamazenta-C, and honestly, I think that it would be quite broken. It possesses a ton of natural bulk, which means that it is nearly impossible to OHKO with a faster Pokémon that is in the B tier or above in OU. I calced it. Barring a Scarf Victini V-Create or Blue Flare, pretty much no offensive counterplay threatens Zama-C with a KO. As a result, defensive counterplay is the better solution, and even then, Howl and Zama’s coverage let it beat nearly every OU threat head on. That being said, it technically should be considered for a retest as all discussion thus far has been theoretical. I don’t think it would prove healthy, but it’s the only one of the three unbans in the survey that could possibly happen.



Hopefully this helped clear up some stuff for people, I’m writing literally this entire post from my phone so I apologize if this sounds inarticulate. As for my thoughts in regards to the rest of the survey, I think that both Ace and Mag are suspect worthy, I think that the Pex is not suspect worthy, and I believe that Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele will be suspect worthy down the line. The metagame is in a pretty good place right now, we just need to get rid of the last of the broken stuff and we’ll be good to go!

I agree with your points made with Zygarde and Garm, but I don't agree with your reasoning for Zamazenta-C. Both Zygarde and Garm have been tried in OU and found broken, and therefore we have concrete knowledge on their best sets and their effect on the meta. We know exactly how Garm is nuclear and has no safe switch-ins, and we know where Sub-Glare Zygarde falls on the spectrum between Hax Gimmick and Viable Hax abuser. However, I think it is safe to say that very few people actually understand how Zamazenta-C works, seeing as how it has been the limbo between OU and Ubers since essentially the beginning of its existence. Currently, we still have broken bunnies running around OU, but once the tier has settled down from all the DLC2 unbans and nothing is immediately on the chopping block yet we should consider Zama-C seriously, since it would be a shame if we later find out it is in fact balanced and we lost a big portion of the metagame due to inaction.

 

[Contrary Servine]

I would also like to give a quick summary of my thoughts on the survey questions.


I agree that I don’t think Cinderace is broken anymore. It’s undoubtedly a top tier mon, but it isn’t over-centralising like Urshifu and Spectrier were, where you auto lost unless you ran a limited set of mons. Cinderace has a wide variety of checks, such as Hippowdon, Toxapex and Slowbro, and none of them are forced to run suboptimal sets specifically to beat Cinderace. Sure, U-turn is annoying as hell, and Cinderace can work around its counters with stuff like Electro Ball, but so can any good wallbreaker, like how Rillaboom can break Ferro with Superpower.



Get this thing out of OU. Unlike Cinderace, which always carries Pyro Ball and U-turn, Mag can run about seventeen different viable sets with totally different moves. Specs hits way too hard, Shift Gear CM is impossible to stop without Haze, and there’s even stuff like Scarf Trick and AV going around now. The coverage it gets is absolutely insane, with Aura Sphere for Heatran, Tbolt for Pex, and Ice Beam for Lando. It even gets Energy Ball, which I found out after it OHKOed my Gastrodon. Magearna has no reliable counters and needs to be banned.



Toxapex is not remotely broken, Pex shouldn‘t be banned. Don’t know why this was on the survey.



Don’t ban Tornadus either? Has anyone legitimately found this thing to be an issue? It doesn‘t get Roost, it relies on a 70% accurate move, it doesn‘t have the greatest coverage. I guess it’s kind of scary at +2 under rain, but Koko or Zeraora can just revenge it. Outside of Rain, Haze Pex sits on this thing all day.



Why are we even considering a box art legend in OU? This thing has crazy bulk, speed and attack power, and the only reasons to allow it into OU are lack of recovery, no boosting move outside of Howl, and mediocre coverage. There’s no case for letting Zamazenta into OU, the meta will become filled with Wish passers to support it and Scarf Victini to try and revenge kill it. It simply has too high a BST, that’s all there is to it.



Ahh yes, the weird snowman with a built-in Choice Band. Just no. It has absurd breaking power when it runs Scarf and Banded variants are just ridiculous.



Zygarde would be more balanced in OU than the other two, but it still shouldn’t be unbanned. Thousand Arrows lets it run three utility moves, and Sub Coil is too difficult to beat. Triple Axel and Icicle Spear could maybe keep it in check, but Glare means that Zygarde can cripple anything that tries to stop it and sweep even without support. If it couldn‘t run Thousand Arrows it might be balanced, but then we get into the realm of ‘Kygore can be used in OU if it holds Black Sludge and doesn’t have any water moves’.

Once Magearna is banned the metagame should be fairly balanced. I don’t think Cinderace should go, but that’s up for debate. Others have already made arguments similar to mine, so I won’t say anything more, but in summary: Ban Mag, Don’t Ban Ace, Don’t Ban Pex, Don’t Ban Torn, and don’t unban ZZ-C, Garm, or Garde.

 

[shadowpea]

I've been lurking around this thread for quite a bit so I think I should share my opinions on the mons on the survey as well.



I don't think its broken for most of the reasons other people said. Sure, its very good at what it does. Sure, Libero gives it 3 120+ BP STAB moves to work with. Sure, it gets STAB U-Turn and priority. But although its very good (no denying that), it is not broken in my eyes because there's enough counterplay to it and its checks are relatively easy to fit on a team. It isn't like Magearna which pressures you right from the teambuilder, although this might just me me spamming Zapdos/Moltres on my teams.



Now this is a completely different story. Magearna is broken. The SGCM Kisspower set forces you to have one of a select few pokemon that can deal with it. Sounds familiar? This is part of why Spectrier was banned and was exactly why I wanted Spectrier banned. I as a player likes freedom on the builder and Magearna greatly restricts that. Not to mention that the checks of SGCM can be completely obliterated by other sets or even just a change in coverage moves. Its too difficult to deal with, it lacks true counters (that's actually splashable in the metagame), and the SGCM set can 6-0 you from team preview if you don't have a satisfactory answer. Get it out.



Ok, I'm gonna be honest, selfishly I would love to see Toxapex be banned. Its so damn bulky and unkillable and annoying. However, the truth is that it is not broken, like at all. Sure, its bulky. Sure, its annoying as hell. Sure, some people would want to smash their computer screens when they see Toxapex on team preview, but it is not the least "broken". I think I shouldn't have to explain why.



Again, its just really, really good at what it does, not broken. Sure its versatile as hell and unkillable in the right hands and has nearly unparralelled utility as well as a nasty NP breaker set, but they all can be handled, and unlike Magearna the checks overlap and is easier to fit.



HAHAHAHAHAHA no



I was fine with it being freed until I started playing BH. Its bulk is just insane. Think Pokemon like Assult Vest Magearna in gen 7, with no recovery, but absolutely insane bulk. Even the strongest breakers can't OHKO it unless they have a supereffective STAB move. And its also fast, even faster than Tornadus-T, as well as great power. This might be garbage in ubers but is the perfect tank in OU. I do understand that people want to give it a chance in OU, so maaaaaaaaaaaybe it will be fine after we finish cleaning up the remaining brokens. Probably not tho.



Insanely versatile, can select which sets it can beat with the right set, has arguably the best offensive move (Tarrows), best physical setup moves outside of Shift Gear (DD and Coil), best status-inducing move outside of spore (Glare), best priority move (Espeed), and have all the right stats to do things with them. It can be incredibly annoying with Sub Glare shenanigans or just 6-0 teams with setup sets. No thank you.

TLDR: Ban Mage and don't touch anything else. Zama might be worth a shot tho.

 

[Tzolkin]

Yeah not gonna lie
None of the unbans in the playerbase survey are gonna happen.
For those still carrying hope for GDarm, Zygarde, and Zamazenta-C to drop down, let me explain a few issues with that. (However, I personally am indifferent to a Zama-C test, it’s just not gonna happen.)

The “No-Unbans” Post​

Before I get into this, let me go over some important Smogon tiering policy-
1. Complex bans aren’t happening. Okay, we aren’t gonna unban combinations, individual aspects, and parts of Pokémon in order to make the Pokémon in question not broken. This means no Zen GDarm unbans. GDarm itself is completely broken- I’ll go over it again in a sec- so we aren’t gonna just ban Gorilla Tactics. The only example I can think of where there was a complex ban in recent memory was the Swift Swim+Drizzle ban in BW OU which I personally disagree with, but it isn’t current, nor something that will happen in the near future.

2. If an unban can potentially be not broken, then this unban ought to happen. We saw this most recently at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame- Genesect, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Landorus-I, Magearna, Melmetal, Cinderace, Zygarde, Blaziken, and Pheromosa were unbanned. Additionally, the already problematic Urshifu-SS and the potentially problematic Spectrier were not banned. Of all of these, guess what? Only four remain: Magearna, Cinderace, Melmetal, and Blaziken. The first two of these are arguably broken, likely due for a suspect, and last time each was suspected in SS OU, they were banned. Blaziken should potentially be much better after the theoretical ban of Ace, and should Blaziken prove problematic following this, then Blaziken will be banned too. Melmetal will be fine based on its current standing in the metagame, and even if it did end up broken it’ll just be banned too. With all of these unbans, we see every single unban bar Blaziken and Melmetal either gone or on the chopping block, in addition to the suspects and bans of Spectrier and Urshifu-SS. So why did all of these get unbanned in the first place? The answer is simple: they each had the potential to be balanced in the tier. Sure, it was heavily unlikely for most of them, but it was worth giving it a try due to the fact that every once in a while, we have a Melmetal or a Blaziken that isn’t actually broken, and adds to the metagame. At the start of Gen 8, there was an Aegislash unban due to its nerfs and general power creep and guess what- Aegislash is actually a really cool addition to the metagame!





However, let me go over why I don’t think that any of these unbans are happening individually and why it makes sense with the points I’ve made earlier.





Recently unbanned and quickbanned, Zygarde was very much broken when it was around last time, as well as in National Dex, and no metagame changes that make the metagame more hostile to Zygarde have really occurred. I guess Pult can revenge it a little easier behind Sub since it no longer is competing with Spectrier, and that’s the only change. This is not enough of a change to possibly merit an unban. After a single Dragon Dance, Pult can no longer revenge Zygarde, and with slight bulk investment, Zygarde can avoid a KO from Draco on the Boots Pivot set. The point is that in no way is Zygarde gonna be unbanned.





When I saw this one on the survey, I started laughing. Garm is broken, Garm is broken, Garm is broken. Anyone who has been watching either OU or NatDex this gen knows how absurd Garm is, and most people can see that it’s broken just on principle. It’s not gonna get unbanned, so it shouldn’t be tested. Additionally- Zen Garm is not gonna be unbanned. That would constitute a complex ban- banning Gorilla Tactics makes no sense because Huge Power is an ability that outright outclasses GTactics and is not broken on Azumarill nor Diggersby- and one cannot simply ban the combination of GTactics and Garm- that’s a complex ban. Other bans with similar principles but different circumstances that I just wanted to go over quickly are banning Libero but not Ace (sorry, but Libero isn’t broken in OU on Raboot and therefore Libero cannot be banned), and banning Arena Trap as a foil to the “ban Libero” argument- Arena Trap is proven to be broken across every generation in which it exists save for Gen 3 (arguably still broken), and one might say that banning it affects Diglett and Trapinch down in lower tiers, but they have such impracticality terrible stats and movepools that they aren’t worth using, and additionally, different tiering policy in relation to Little Cup means that they still have access to Arena Trap in that metagame.





Now this one is a bit different- Zamazenta-C is terrible in Ubers, but has never been tested in OU. There have been several lengthy discussions in regards to Zamazenta-C, and honestly, I think that it would be quite broken. It possesses a ton of natural bulk, which means that it is nearly impossible to OHKO with a faster Pokémon that is in the B tier or above in OU. I calced it. Barring a Scarf Victini V-Create or Blue Flare, pretty much no offensive counterplay threatens Zama-C with a KO. As a result, defensive counterplay is the better solution, and even then, Howl and Zama’s coverage let it beat nearly every OU threat head on. That being said, it technically should be considered for a retest as all discussion thus far has been theoretical. I don’t think it would prove healthy, but it’s the only one of the three unbans in the survey that could possibly happen.



Hopefully this helped clear up some stuff for people, I’m writing literally this entire post from my phone so I apologize if this sounds inarticulate. As for my thoughts in regards to the rest of the survey, I think that both Ace and Mag are suspect worthy, I think that the Pex is not suspect worthy, and I believe that Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele will be suspect worthy down the line. The metagame is in a pretty good place right now, we just need to get rid of the last of the broken stuff and we’ll be good to go!

Just a small note, but Arena Trap was banned because it was broken on all of the pokemon that had access to it. Even Trapinch and Diglett were used in the past when Dugtrio was banned (gen V for example) and while sure they were worse they still ultimately achieved the same thing. The same goes for something like Moody. As for G-Darm maybe GT could be banned instead of it (and I personally wouldn't have any problems with it) but as things stand right now G-Darm is simply too much for the tier.