Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Nebula27]

Weavile is heat. I wanna talk about it.

The two main sets I've seen going around are Choice Band with Knock Off + 3 Ice Moves/2 Ice Moves + Low Kick and Boots SD with Knock + Shard + Crash/Triple Axel. Both sets are really good at grabbing momentum off a free switch, either something like a pivot move or a hard switch on a rocks Lando/Garchomp. Because it typically forces switches into 'safe' Pokemon like Tapu Fini/Clefable/Corviknight these are the first things getting Knocked which is great for forcing your progress as these Pokemon are cut from their lefties or boots or what have you.

Current metagame trends are kind of forcing a lot of teams into the middling balance teams which is conversely what Weavile thrives upon facing. If you can incapacitate their Choice Scarf user it's generally going to go to town in endgames where things are chipped. Additionally Ice/Dark just murders so many things that it's hard to stay safe from it forever, it baits in the few checks it has because the opponent often has to go in to them in the early game. Koko/Kart/Rilla all support it well by threatening the waters that it can't remove easily, and it's not hard to add something to go for the bulky steels either.

gonna link this replay from OST, it was the game that put me on to Weavile in the first place thanks to Lord_Enz's excellent use of the Pokemon. Also plugging my team bazaar post bc it's a fun team that I think emphasizes some of Weavile's best qualities.

I only experimented with it before the Urshifu ban and when I was lower ladder but I remember loving it. I remeber its largest problem was getting in without HDB but lacking immediate power without Band. Recently I've seen a swords dance lead set that tries to punish non scarf lando-t with crash and knock off swamps leftovers. When I encounter this set (Swords, Crash, knock, low kick, Life orb) It can dish out some serious chip early on and setting up a easier late game. Zerarora with close combat might be a great way to beat this set and I use it as a lead anytime I see weavile.

Now this set is probably useless against scarf Lando but I guess thats what the shard + band set is for which is a guaranteed OHKO. Now this is low ladder (1300s?) so I'm not sure how it would translate to that higher tier of play. This also my first time on the forums so please tell me if I'm doing this wrong?

 

[TravisB]

Am I the only one who feels like Boots Zera's damage output is kinda meh? I feel just because it can run boots, it doesn't mean it should. It seems like it's really missing out on the damage output of the boost item variants. It Unfortunately is not Ace who can boost the damage of it's coverage moves with Libero and it clearly shows in those damage calculations

Zera can learn Rising Voltage. Its kind of situational obviously, but you can do some serious damage with that under terrain and being specially based also makes Grass Knot and Volt Switch better. Could run Toxic/Knock Off/Aura Sphere/Focus Blast in the 4th slot.

 

[Katy]

pokemon in spl which gained a lot of attraction:

this pokemon gained a lot of usage over the past couple of weeks. slowly but surely it cements itself as one of the better pokemon in swsh ou. this pokemon clicks choice band-boosted knock offs like no other, triple axel, and priority in ice shard make it a very appealing factor in spl and without many ice/dark resists in the metagame this pokemon clearly shows more and more dominance in spl altogether. its different sets all put in a lot of work wether its choice band or heavy-duty boost with swords dance both sets are a huge threat to most teams right now. its speed tier is also great with 125 it doesnt get outsped that easily. i think this pokemon sees more and more usage not only in tour environment but also on ladder.

i've talked about this pokemon before, but i cannot stress enough of how good scizor is, this pokemon shot up in usage over the past couple of weeks as well. with teampartners like landorus-t, dragapult, and zeraora it formes a great core pressuring the opposition with volt-turn combo. scizor really cemented itself as one of the biggest threats currently and i hope it sees the ladder usage it deserves. it also profits from an amazing priority in stab bullet punch, which after a swords dance-boost, is really threatening.

seems to see a comeback again; after spectriers ban it wasn't seen as much anymore, but with dragapult and other dangerous special attackers such as hydreigon and calm mind clefable rising it shows once again it is one of the best special walls in the metagame.

had a whopping 100% winrate in week 9 of spl and it clearly shows how good of a pokemon it is. it's swords dance set is really terrifying after its checks in corviknight and mandibuzz are weakened. grassy glide in grassy terrain with the added boost is nothing to laugh at after a +2 with swords dance and rillaboom is a noteworthy wallbreaker. this grass buddy clearly dominated the past week of spl and i feel we will see more of it.

its calm mind set alongside spdef investment makes it a great check to hydreigon and dragapult and a great lategame-cleaner with thunder / thunderbolt in its arsenal and stab moonblast. soft boiled guarantees great longevity to do that task and it is popping up as one of the better stealth rock setters again.

winners of past week in spl:

in overall we can say that , , and are the lucky pokemon this past week in spl. scizor and weavile cements themselves among the best and rillabooms winrate is a clear sign of how good this pokemon can work with the right support to get it going lategame.

losers of past week in spl:

the unlucky pokemon in week9 of spl is , this pokemon is still a threat regardless, switching into its stabs in magma storm or lava plume isn't a joke with both moves having a great side effect. but this week was a little bit unfortunate for this pokemon, but i think it'll bounce back again.

these are my thoughts on the past week in spl, i hope you have a great day and thanks for reading!​

 

[ausma]

This season of SPL has been really awesome altogether, with great showings from every player and party involved. Though, most interestingly, I'm fascinated to see the metagame developments and really fun cores unfolding. In particular, I'd like to use Katy's fantastic post as groundwork for my own observations.

this pokemon gained a lot of usage over the past couple of weeks. slowly but surely it cements itself as one of the better pokemon in swsh ou. this pokemon clicks choice band-boosted knock offs like no other, triple axel, and priority in ice shard make it a very appealing factor in spl and without many ice/dark resists in the metagame this pokemon clearly shows more and more dominance in spl altogether. its different sets all put in a lot of work wether its choice band or heavy-duty boost with swords dance both sets are a huge threat to most teams right now. its speed tier is also great with 125 it doesnt get outsped that easily. i think this pokemon sees more and more usage not only in tour environment but also on ladder.

i've talked about this pokemon before, but i cannot stress enough of how good scizor is, this pokemon shot up in usage over the past couple of weeks as well. with teampartners like landorus-t, dragapult, and zeraora it formes a great core pressuring the opposition with volt-turn combo. scizor really cemented itself as one of the biggest threats currently and i hope it sees the ladder usage it deserves. it also profits from an amazing priority in stab bullet punch, which after a swords dance-boost, is really threatening.


had a whopping 100% winrate in week 9 of spl and it clearly shows how good of a pokemon it is. it's swords dance set is really terrifying after its checks in corviknight and mandibuzz are weakened. grassy glide in grassy terrain with the added boost is nothing to laugh at after a +2 with swords dance and rillaboom is a noteworthy wallbreaker. this grass buddy clearly dominated the past week of spl and i feel we will see more of it.

Weavile, Scizor, and Rillaboom are having a fantastic time in the current metagame, and the big things I've noticed regarding their usage, I bolded. I believe that these 3 Pokemon are utterly fantastic right now, especially in tandem with Zeraora and Tapu Koko which lay out a lot of pressure against threats like Corviknight, Toxapex, and Mandibuzz that can be fairly annoying for them. I think more offensively inclined teams are shining in the current metagame in such a way that doesn't feel particularly constricting, too, sporting a wide variety of offensive cores that are super customizable. There are options like Kyurem, Zeraora, Tapu Koko, Rillaboom, Weavile, Dragapult, Scizor, Garchomp, Landorus-T; frankly, that's just scratching the surface. I absolutely love the route that offenses have been taking and it's amazing to me just how many options there actually are for them in the tier. Overall, though, I seriously adore how much archetype customization that the tier's climate encourages.

As another discussion point I'd like to bring up off of this observation, I think, bluntly, that this is a Knock Off centric metagame. Knock Off is probably the most powerful, easy, and effective way to force progress in the tier, and is viable on a wide variety of offensive and defensive Pokemon alike for its ability to instantaneously strip away vital items like HDB and Leftovers. The three quoted Pokemon are a fair symptom of that idea, with all three making solid use out of Knock Off to punish pretty much every single switch-in in the tier, too. Obviously, there are reasons for this: for one, we have incredibly powerful Knock Off abusers that are incredibly potent at making use of the move. For example, Tornadus-T is arguably a top 3 Pokemon in the tier, and despite being a Nasty Plot wallbreaker, it makes use of Knock Off to remove HDB from Tapu Koko and Zapdos which are otherwise capable of swapping into its Hurricane and coverage options with relative ease. Likewise, Rillaboom and Kartana can both also make use of Knock Off to strip switch-ins like Mandibuzz and Zapdos of their boots, and also remove Corviknight's item as well which can leave it more vulnerable to later wallbreaking. The other reason as to its power is, simply, without Mega Stones and Z-Crystals to block Knock Off's removal, it is a move that is immensely spammable and neigh impossible to switch into. I don't feel as though Knock Off is necessarily broken, but rather that its centralization is based heavily in the climate of the metagame, especially since it can be swapped into after you lose your item initially (though, that's dependent on the recipient in question). It's just an amazing move on literally any Pokemon.

Despite that, though, I think this is the best state the metagame has been in for a long time. I'm absolutely pumped to see what SPL playoffs bring to the table, and what developments we will see for the tier going forward.

 

[Tzolkin]

Hello, I would like to bring back the point of Zamazenta-C as I believe its potential introduction to the tier would be extremely welcome one. While many people got scared to death when they looked up its stats which are of course great they do not see many flaws and issues it has that would prevent it from running over the tier. Firstly, it cannot hold an item. What this means is that it either loses passive recovery or most importantly can't run Choice Band. This means that its attack is effectively around base 90 with choice band equipped which is downright terrible and it means it cannot OHKO many offensive threads. Secondly its movepool sucks. Appart from Fire Fang and Wild Charge it has absolutely nothing in terms of coverage which makes it extremely easy to defensively answer. It also lacks recovery that together with its lack of Leftovers means that it gets worn down very quickly despite its resistance to rocks. Most importantly we aren't in gen 2 anymore where each stat could be maxed out and that means that if you don't invest in offense and speed (which is almost mandatory with its lackluster offenses) your bulk isn't nearly as impressive anymore. Ultimately, it is a fast and bulky tank, that gets worn down quickly, is very predictable and faces severe competition from other steels that either hit harder or provide more useful utlity (Melmetal, Scizor, Heatran, ...)

But why is Zamazenta healthy for the tier? Well, apart from its main competition Melmetal (which is much much stronger and pretty much as physically bulky) there are no other tanks in the tier. But most importantly there are no Knock Off absorbers in the game with the removal of Z-moves and Megas and as you currently see, aimlessly spamming Knock Off in the early game almost always results in some decent progress and that would obviously change because a player would suddenly have an option to resort to in teambuilding to deal with Knock off spam.

While I agree that there is a chance that Zamazenta becomes too hard to break for offensive builds, I believe there is a good chance it could stay in the meta and make it even better than it already is.

 

[Contrary Servine]

Hello, I would like to bring back the point of Zamazenta-C as I believe its potential introduction to the tier would be extremely welcome one. While many people got scared to death when they looked up its stats which are of course great they do not see many flaws and issues it has that would prevent it from running over the tier. Firstly, it cannot hold an item. What this means is that it either loses passive recovery or most importantly can't run Choice Band. This means that its attack is effectively around base 90 with choice band equipped which is downright terrible and it means it cannot OHKO many offensive threads. Secondly its movepool sucks. Appart from Fire Fang and Wild Charge it has absolutely nothing in terms of coverage which makes it extremely easy to defensively answer. It also lacks recovery that together with its lack of Leftovers means that it gets worn down very quickly despite its resistance to rocks. Most importantly we aren't in gen 2 anymore where each stat could be maxed out and that means that if you don't invest in offense and speed (which is almost mandatory with its lackluster offenses) your bulk isn't nearly as impressive anymore. Ultimately, it is a fast and bulky tank, that gets worn down quickly, is very predictable and faces severe competition from other steels that either hit harder or provide more useful utlity (Melmetal, Scizor, Heatran, ...)

But why is Zamazenta healthy for the tier? Well, apart from its main competition Melmetal (which is much much stronger and pretty much as physically bulky) there are no other tanks in the tier. But most importantly there are no Knock Off absorbersin the game with the removal of Z-moves and Megas and as you currently see, aimlessly spamming Knock Off in the early game almost always results in some decent progress and that would obviously change because a player would suddenly have an option to resort to in teambuilding to deal with Knock off spam.

While I agree that there is a chance that Zamazenta becomes too hard to break for offensive builds, I believe there is a good chance it could stay in the meta and make it even better than it already is.

First of all, I’d like to point out that your statement about Zamazenta’s coverage is incorrect. It also gets access to Crunch, Ice Fang, Play Rough and Psychic Fangs, which massively widen the coverage options it has. Secondly, while you are correct in saying that it has no recovery, wish passing teammates like Clef would provide it with indirect recovery, and thanks to its fantastic 4x rock resistance, stealth rocks will do almost nothing in terms of chip, meaning teams will be forced to run spikes in order to wear it down. It also resists U-turn, the most common pivot move in the game. Pair this with 92/145/145 bulk (this bulk is better than Pex and Ferro by the way, not to mention the Dauntless Shield boost), as well as it being faster than Torn-T and having a higher attack stat than Rillaboom, and I think you can see why it might be a bit broken.
As you address in your post, it can absorb Knock Off, which arguably makes it even stronger, since that would make it the only reliable Knock Off absorber in the tier. You also argue that since it can’t hold an item, its attack stat is too weak since it can’t use Life Orb or Choice Band. But say you switch in on a Banded Rillaboom’s Knock Off and click Howl, the only attack boosting move Zamazenta-C gets. Immediately, your oppenent has to switch, you get a free Howl, and suddenly you’re at the level of a Choice Band in terms of attack power and you can still switch moves. Even though Howl is a terrible boosting move, Zamazenta’s sheer bulk lets it switch in and set up against half the tier, and its good speed tier and aformentioned bulk make it extremely difficult to revenge kill.
For the reasons above, I don’t believe the council should consider unbanning Zamazenta-C. Uninvested, it has a Def and Spdef of 326, two points lower than fully invested base 100s, and hits 427 if fully invested. This means offensive sets will have bulk comparable to some walls, and defensive sets would be near-unkillable. I know it doesn’t get reliable recovery, but it does get Rest and Sleep Talk, and there’s nothing to stop it receiveing Wish. I don’t think allowing a Steel with 92/145/145 bulk into the tier is a good idea.

 

[Bruh Moment (Fruedasi)]

My opinion about the Zamazenta Stuff:
First of all, currently It's better to not make a suspect test for it right now, the metagame now is been a lot of more fun without all the broken stuff, so why for the sake of the metagame add the maybe broken stuff right now? Ok, Maybe Zamazenta can make the tier more healthy because of the Knock Off absorption, but really? Right now on my opinion it's better to we have the metagame for some months and then test Zamazenta and possible other mons (aka I have a opinion about a Uber that may can be OU even that it has great coverage and sheer power) but for now let's stop the bans and unbans for a couple of months to see not only how the metagame shapes and shifts, but if testing Zama is really that worthy for the metagame, right now it's better be patient for Zamazenta in OU, let's first have this beatiful metagame before it can be destroyed by some shield-armored dog(or if the shield-armored dog is really that ok for SS OU standarts)
Anyways here's my opinion feel free to disagree about this, have a wonderful day.

 

[AM]

Can this meme of Zamanta-C go away already? Please.

 

[Finchinator]

Can this meme of Zamanta-C go away already? Please.

Nah, let’s free it

 

[Finchinator]

I’m dead serious btw.

 

[ViZar]

Sorry for making this post, but I'd like to share my thoughts on ruff dog and explain why it probably isn't a good idea.
I know in the past, I've been an unban supporter but when thinking about it, it doesn't sound like a good idea at all.

First of stats. Suprise, it's good in that department. 130 Atk is the least impressive in my opinion. Sure it's good, but the reason why mons like Urshifu, Garchomp and Latios can make it work is because of Choice items and Life Orb. With that being said, 130 is still huge and it has very good moves to abuse it with.
It's bulk is like ludicrous. 92/145/145 is better than Pex's bulk and it gets +1 on top of that. Sure it doesn't have recovery (that would've been more absurd), but a bulky, balanced or stall team can keep it healthy with Grassy Surge, Leech Seed and Wish Support. Offensive teams can heal it with Healing Wish as well.
Lastly, its speed. Great Attack with Great Bulk usually results in a slow mon, but Zamazenta has freaking 128 Spe. Here is a noteable list of mons it can outspeed: Volcarona, Garchomp, Kartana, Latios, Hawlucha and Tornadus-Therian. Provided that they have no speed boosts of course, but the fact that it is only outsped by Koko, Zeraora and Dragapult naturally isn't really good.

It has other traits like a very good typing and a good enough movepool, but I'm busy now and I wanted to share my thoughts before this conversation is shut down again. So yeah sorry for this kinda low quality.

Have a nice day and stay safe!
Cya!

 

[Fusion Flare]

In all seriousness, me and ausma were discussing this, but there’s basically nothing thats SUPER broken in the meta at the moment. So it’d be a perfect time to retest Zama-C, as the meta is super stable currently. We could suspect it sometime this month, or we could wait until usage stats come in by April and test it then.

I mean, UU went absolutely nuts over the idea of a suspect test for Aegislash at first, and yet there are people now clamoring for it to be unbanned, myself included. Who’s to say if it is or it isnt? Theorymonning won’t get us anywhere, thats for sure. So why not?

 

[YeetYolk07]

I actually agree with letting it loose in OU for some time for people to gather their thoughts since all the discussion has not been put to practice. However if we were to test it, which I believe should be after the next tier shifts, I would personally vote for Ban for reasons stated above. But it would be super fun to play with it, so I'd say let it loose(at the right time of course).

 

[incorolla]

Genuine question: if the meta is a relatively stable place rn, wouldn't freeing Zama completely destabilize it? Like, people have pointed out its mammoth stats and decent coverage, i cant imagine the meta remaining at all stable when/if its unleashed

 

[YeetYolk07]

Genuine question: if the meta is a relatively stable place rn, wouldn't freeing Zama completely destabilize it? Like, people have pointed out its mammoth stats and decent coverage, i cant imagine the meta remaining at all stable when/if its unleashed

Yes but people have been discussion reason to unban, the main reason being the lack of good set-up. Zama-C, which I personally believe to be too much, should still be let in considering that there is actually a good majority that wants to test it, which im not opposed. I think it is possible to soft check it with a lot of things, however there aren't many solid counters which is why I believe it would be banned again.

 

[ausma]

Genuine question: if the meta is a relatively stable place rn, wouldn't freeing Zama completely destabilize it? Like, people have pointed out its mammoth stats and decent coverage, i cant imagine the meta remaining at all stable when/if its unleashed

That is the whole design of a suspect test, should we choose to do one. Unban suspects free the suspect Pokemon onto the ladder for two weeks (or whatever range of time the suspect takes place within), and a supermajority vote determines if it stays unbanned, or if it goes back to being banned. There would be no risk to stability since that control factor is always there, and if it proves to be a balanced and/or healthy component, then the informed supermajority vote ensures that any potential risk would be outright eliminated.

Anyway, to add my two cents onto this discussion, I personally think if there's a time to do a Zamazenta-Crowned suspect, it would be soon, or at least sometime after shifts this April. Although I cannot say for certain as to its impact, I think the metagame has found itself in a relatively stable position with no overtly polarizing, banworthy threat on the radar. Additionally, given the ubiquity of Knock Off, Zamazenta-Crowned would actually add something to the tier. Above all else, though, it's imperative to remember that theorycrafting only gets us so far; we can say Zamazenta-Crowned is broken here, or broken there, but we can't be certain until we actually see it in action.

Free Zamazenta; for a suspect test, anyway.

 

[Bruh Moment (Fruedasi)]

I think that make a comparison between Zama and Giratina is a bit too far. Giratina was truly busted for OU standarts, but Zama is even not tested yet, we still don't see how Zama could destroy or be ok for the tier. We still don't know and that's why people are supporting testing Zama. Might Zama would be busted but maybe not (remember Kyurem-B in Gen 5 OU) so yea we'll see if it's truly busted or not. That's why it most like will be tested. Anyways that's it, it will maybe be tested in April after the tier shifts just to see if it's that broken or not like people making theorymonning is trying to say.
Edit : OOF the post that I was refering was deleted. Why I didn't use the reply feature. I feel dumb sometimes

 

[AquaVanilla]

imo, i dont think this is a good idea considering zama has godlike stats, great coverage, and a great typing, add that w its amazing defense and good speed that outspeeds a lot of the metagame. Yeah, it doesnt have recovery but we could see a bunch load of wish passing clefs and wish passing clef has indeed got better after the bans which offense cant do anything abt it when theres a zama, offense will legit get murdered by zama, and nothing can offensively check zama which you are gonna have to rely on defensive cores to even do anything to check it. But, we will just have to see.

 

[pulsar512b]

imo, i dont think this is a good idea considering zama has godlike stats, great coverage, and a great typing, add that w its amazing defense and good speed that outspeeds a lot of the metagame. Yeah, it doesnt have recovery but we could see a bunch load of wish passing clefs and wish passing clef has indeed got better after the bans which offense cant do anything abt it when theres a zama, offense will legit get murdered by zama, and nothing can offensively check zama which you are gonna have to rely on defensive cores to even do anything to check it. But, we will just have to see.

I was about to say Latios but uhh

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[qwertyman888]

PLEASE, not Zamazenta-C. We're finally getting a meta free of things that are by definition broken. WHY would we ruin that? To satisfy Blunder??

A lot of common arguments, and one made in Blunder's video, is that it's "bad in Ubers". I swear if i see that argument again I am actually going to cry. "It's bad in Ubers" doesn't make it good for the meta. Compare it to Reshiram, another awful Uber Pokemon. Would THAT make the meta more healthy?

Second, saying we're theorymonning when we say we don't want Zama isn't quite fair. Its stats say more than enough. 720 BST and 148 defenses, with an actual solid HP stat? Really?

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 218-258 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Banded strongest Fighting-type SUPER-EFFECTIVE STAB in the tier. It lives without breaking a sweat. Not only that, Cinderace is gone now, even less of an argument for Zamazenta-C being remotely healthy for the metagame.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 159-187 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not super-effective, but Lele is one of the strongest mons in the tier and it can't even 2HKO this thing.

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 159-190 (40.9 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Another incredibly powerful supereffective STAB attack that can't 3HKO. 0 attack Zama outspeeds and can 2hko fairly easily.

Zama can't run both max physdef and spdef, but these calcs alone show how insanely bulky it is. Retesting this thing would make the tier hell for the duration of the test, and if it were somehow by a miracle unbanned, the tier would be borderline unplayable.

Third, "it has no recovery" isn't a great argument. Its existence would make Wishport Clefable or even Wish Blissey common on its own(not necessarily during the suspect test, but if it were somehow unbanned and the meta progresses to that point). Wish would give it enough recovery to be incredibly hard to kill. This would also promote extremely fat balance teams to dominance in the meta (I have nothing against balance/stall, but I know a lot of people do.)

A ton of people are focusing on Zama being offensively "bad": walled by Pex, only boosting move is Howl, etc. They're completely ignoring how the defensive side of things would be way too overbearing.

Not to mention it takes nothing from rocks, the most common and easiest to set up hazard in the tier.

I understand that people want a suspect and to be honest that's fine. But it'd no doubt hurt the meta when we're just getting something good IF it was unbanned.

Finch, I really, desperately hope you're joking.

(PSA: The damage calc for Zama is broken. Remove its Ability and manually set +1 defense to see the real calcs.)

 

[toaster04]

I guess ill offer my opinions on this topic..

the dog should get neutered. while the meta is an incredibly stable state currently, a suspect test would be cool.. despite being a gargantuan, being a fantastic knock absorber, etc, i dont believe its worth unleashing zama-c in ou. at all.

colossal stats echo chamber (92/130/145/80/145/128) and courage the cowardly dog uber completely dissuades offense without fear, offensive checks like garchomp will get howled on once, and then win the matchup. lando-t to some extent checks it, but my point still stands. its really 50/50s in the end as displayed with the calcs below.

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 307-367 (90 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 410-486 (106.2 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 98-116 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 118-141 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
dragapult gets howled on and loses

252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 237-281 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 342-404 (132 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

i think zapdos is one of the closest things to a defensive check. courage the cowardly dog uber is going to forcefeed ultra-fat cores and completely invalidate the tier, a suspect would probably be the next step but i have high doubts for it.

 

[Hobie]

I know that some people adamantly believe that Zama would be broken in the tier (and quite honestly I'm not sure if I think it would or wouldn't), but what is the harm in suspect testing it? People have been thinking about it for quite a while and given that there's no clear consensus if it would be broken or not, isn't now the perfect time for a suspect test? I might be incorrect (and if so please tell me), but isn't the purpose of a suspect test to settle that debate in the actual tier rather than just theory crafting? At worst it turns out that the mon is broken and the ladder has a dumb mon on it for two weeks, but if it turns out to not be broken we have a whole new mon to play with.

 

[musiquepkmn]

If we are going to consider unbanning Zama-C, we should at least make sure that if it is crazy broken, a QB is on the table. Whether or it will be broken is a question, but if it is broken my guess is that it will be super broken. If we do suspect it, and it turns out to be super broken, will the council be able to immediately call off the suspect?

 

[Fusion Flare]

PLEASE, not Zamazenta-C. We're finally getting a meta free of things that are by definition broken. WHY would we ruin that? To satisfy Blunder??

A lot of common arguments, and one made in Blunder's video, is that it's "bad in Ubers". I swear if i see that argument again I am actually going to cry. "It's bad in Ubers" doesn't make it good for the meta. Compare it to Reshiram, another awful Uber Pokemon. Would THAT make the meta more healthy?

Second, saying we're theorymonning when we say we don't want Zama isn't quite fair. Its stats say more than enough. 720 BST and 148 defenses, with an actual solid HP stat? Really?

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 218-258 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Banded strongest Fighting-type SUPER-EFFECTIVE STAB in the tier. It lives without breaking a sweat. Not only that, Cinderace is gone now, even less of an argument for Zamazenta-C being remotely healthy for the metagame.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 159-187 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not super-effective, but Lele is one of the strongest mons in the tier and it can't even 2HKO this thing.

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 159-190 (40.9 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Another incredibly powerful supereffective STAB attack that can't 3HKO. 0 attack Zama outspeeds and can 2hko fairly easily.

Zama can't run both max physdef and spdef, but these calcs alone show how insanely bulky it is. Retesting this thing would make the tier hell for the duration of the test, and if it were somehow by a miracle unbanned, the tier would be borderline unplayable.

Third, "it has no recovery" isn't a great argument. Its existence would make Wishport Clefable or even Wish Blissey common on its own(not necessarily during the suspect test, but if it were somehow unbanned and the meta progresses to that point). Wish would give it enough recovery to be incredibly hard to kill. This would also promote extremely fat balance teams to dominance in the meta (I have nothing against balance/stall, but I know a lot of people do.)

A ton of people are focusing on Zama being offensively "bad": walled by Pex, only boosting move is Howl, etc. They're completely ignoring how the defensive side of things would be way too overbearing.

Not to mention it takes nothing from rocks, the most common and easiest to set up hazard in the tier.

I understand that people want a suspect and to be honest that's fine. But it'd no doubt hurt the meta when we're just getting something good IF it was unbanned.

Finch, I really, desperately hope you're joking.

(PSA: The damage calc for Zama is broken. Remove its Ability and manually set +1 defense to see the real calcs.)

Ok, ok, it WAS blunder (and later aim) that had bandwagon the idea, but the idea that that was the reasoning alone is kinda just missing the entire point. Yes, it originally was annoying cries because it was shit, but then we actually discussed it and suddenly it isnt so unreasonable.

People keep mentioning the defenses, but they’re nothing offense can’t break down or anything, and it just seems outright a liability against defensive cores that just sit on it endlessly and wear out those 8 PP STABs. Sure, you can try and handwave it by saying ‘oh but you can wish pass it, now what will you do’ but Wish is not only really hard to fit on both the blobs, but its really awkward to execute as well. And there’s also its goofy defensive utility. A steel that cant actually come in on Lele’s or Latios’s STAB Psychic without getting chipped tremendously? Eugh. And this is compounding on the fact that your only form of recovery is an awkward to pull off wish.

Now it could be centralizing, and it doesnt get unbanned. Ok, fine, whatever. Back to the normal meta, its not like two weeks kills anyone in a meta thats stable as-is. People are acting like the minute this gets retested its a death sentence for the tier or something.

 

[qwertyman888]

Now it could be centralizing, and it doesnt get unbanned. Ok, fine, whatever. Back to the normal meta, its not like two weeks kills anyone in a meta thats stable as-is. People are acting like the minute this gets retested its a death sentence for the tier or something.

I specifically said "if it was somehow unbanned." I'm NOT arguing against a suspect, I'm arguing against voting Unban on said suspect, or ever permanently freeing Zama in OU.