Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[ZannaBianca]

I could see Rock Tomb having merit. With Balloon it means Chomp and Lando are Toxic fodder for you always off the switch, same with Torn if you have enough speed investment. It gives a bit of redundancy vs Volcarona, but also helps directly in the Heatran mirror, especially if you have a Balloon, as if you are offensive you guarantee outspeed and ohko any Balloon Tran that tried to switch into you.

In particular when it comes to grassy terrain I am inclined to agree. Leftovers and a few other items/moves gain a lot of merit when you are getting bonus recovery per turn. Notably Protect and/or Toxic becomes a valuable option, as does Torment (Volcanion being the most obvious exception, a lot of standard sets lack two ways to reliably and significantly damage Heatran on a per turn basis). Nature Power becomes a decent option for Bro and Chomp on the switch, although I think Koko is potentially Heatran's best Nature Power partner.

Edit: Under Grassy you gain additional considerations such as Iron Defense, Body Press, Flame Body as an Ability, Will-o-wisp, Lava Plume, Eruption (since you can recover it's base power), Rocky Helmet, Shuca Berry, Metronome, and more physically defensive spreads.

If using Nature Power (or Dark Pulse, like some madlads I have seen on ladder), If think Taunt would be best option in the 4th slot, otherwise Slowking can basically come in with and just eat everything.

 

[Xenocide88]

If using Nature Power (or Dark Pulse, like some madlads I have seen on ladder), If think Taunt would be best option in the 4th slot, otherwise Slowking can basically come in with and just eat everything.

That's part of the crux of many a Heatran set in that they feel vastly more powerful when they have Taunt to prevent an opponent from negating their progress. Versus Slowbro/Slowking in particular you restrict them to a mediocre Scald or Press in the case of some Slowbro running Colbur Berry.

 

[ZannaBianca]

Something which may sound stupid but also very fun to try would be a lure set for something like Slowking or SpDef Hippodown. One option I was thinking of was Block Power Whip Ferrothorn with sufficient investment. It could be a nasty surpise for the opponent and cripple or remove their main Heatran switch-in.

 

[myself12]

Something which may sound stupid but also very fun to try would be a lure set for something like Slowking or SpDef Hippodown. One option I was thinking of was Block Power Whip Ferrothorn with sufficient investment. It could be a nasty surpise for the opponent and cripple or remove their main Heatran switch-in.

Doesn't slowking just teleport out though? It also heals back damage due to regenerator. With hippo though, this sounds evil. I remember toxapex with block, recover, spite, and another move that would trap and pp stall.

 

[viivian]

Doesn't slowking just teleport out though? It also heals back damage due to regenerator. With hippo though, this sounds evil. I remember toxapex with block, recover, spite, and another move that would trap and pp stall.

it’s negative priority tho, so it still eats a fuckton from ferro’s power whip, even without investment

 

[myself12]

it’s negative priority tho, so it still eats a fuckton from ferro’s power whip, even without investment

I meant that there's nothing stopping it from teleporting away the turn you use block. You are screwed by power whip tho:

0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 294-348 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[viivian]

I meant that there's nothing stopping it from teleporting away the turn you use block.

not enough to take another one of ferrothorn’s power whips

- 0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 294-348 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

this isnt a metagame discussion post but please everyone who reads this and wants to post about calc,

Please Do Not Use A Strip "-" Before A Number/CALC like the post above here,

- 0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 294-348 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

at first i was confused on why its -attack ferrothorn but realize its not the nature.

i know calcs usually go (Number)(plus or minus) like
252- Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Abomasnow: 87-103 (27.1 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

but there has been so many instances where people use "-" at the beginning of calcs and made people, not just me wonder "wait, why is he using -attack nature on this?" and had people respond to posts trying to correct it by saying the nature on the damage calculator might be wrong, when it is already correct, just that there was a "-" in the beginning and caused unnecessary confusion.

you dont need to preface a calc with "-" unlike sentences. just post the calc. ik this sounds like a bit of a rant, but it really does make it easier to read posts, so sorry if this post bother anyone.

 

[Martin]

If you want a Slowking lure that's not the usual Taunt+Toxic damage-over-time or Koko+Nature Power strats, here's a set that you may want to mess around with:


Heatran @ Power Herb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power

This is an option that can kinda nuke Slowking off the face of the earth under certain conditions. Once you've hit it with Knock Off, simply catch it on switch-in with Magma Storm, Taunt it to stop it Teleporting out, and Solar Beam to kill it on the spot. Modest guarantees that SR+Magma+2 Magma chips is enough to take it out. This will also hit Fini hard, which is handy as Misty Surge provides a buffer against both Toxic and Nature Power. You don't even need SR assuming Fini is max HP+Leftovers. It also nukes Rotom-W off of the face of the earth, which is handy as otherwise it can fire off a Hydro Pump at you (though you do need to be careful of faster variants), and Gastrodon too. Obviously has the drawback of no Leftovers hurting longevity, but so does Balloon so And Slowbro obviously dies too if someone's really falling back hard on that 'mon to deal with Heatran for some reason. Can also punish people who try to pivot in with Urshifu, letting you take it out of the picture early if you have a read on them, but that 'mon dies to two SR+Storm+DoT combos anyway. Trades utility vs Grounds/Dragons/opposing Tran/etc. for more immediate utility vs most Water-types. You can go Timid if you don't mind being a bit weaker but keep in mind it does affect calcs quite hard and may need more chip to net certain kills (or at least will make you eat another Scald).

 

[Deleted User 595640]

Semi-Weather for Dummies
I've found a really simple and effective formula for building weather-terrain teams. It's as easy as ordering a combo meal.

Step 1: Pick a weather-sweeper pair
Step 2: Pick a terrain pair
Step 3: Pick a breaker
Step 4: Slap a Garchomp on it

Run terrain extender, nature power, and weather ball where available. Don't be dumb and lose your answer to scarf shadow ball.

Breaker Recommendations
Breakers should be getting "dual stab" from the terrain and/or weather. This is your freebie slot. You have to modify the terrain setter set and/or weather setter set to complement your breaker choice. All setters should be offensive; dont waste a slot on some bumpkin set like SpD pelipper.

	Psychic	Electric	Grassy	Misty
Sun
Rain
Sand () / ()
Hail ( / )

Garchomp Set
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Fire Fang / Aqua Tail / Stone Edge / Stealth Rock

Pyschic-Sun is by far my favorite. You smash steels and just blow stuff up.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Semi-Weather for Dummies
I've found a really simple and effective formula for building weather-terrain teams. It's as easy as ordering a combo meal.

Step 1: Pick a weather-sweeper pair
Step 2: Pick a terrain pair
Step 3: Pick a breaker
Step 4: Slap a Garchomp on it

Run terrain extender, nature power, and weather ball where available. Don't be dumb and lose your answer to scarf shadow ball.

Breaker Recommendations
Breakers should be getting "dual stab" from the terrain and/or weather. This is your freebie slot. You have to modify the terrain setter set and/or weather setter set to complement your breaker choice. All setters should be offensive; dont waste a slot on some bumpkin set like SpD pelipper.

	Psychic	Electric	Grassy	Misty
Sun
Rain
Sand () / ()
Hail ( / )

Garchomp Set
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Fire Fang / Aqua Tail / Stone Edge / Stealth Rock

Pyschic-Sun is by far my favorite. You smash steels and just blow stuff up.

This is actually kind of a really nice elo farming guide, quite like the way it's organized (though Volcanion on grassy is pretty underrated because it can stomach vital Earthquakes that aren't a +2 Chomp after SR ofc)

 

[Moyashi]

What are your thoughts on specs dragapult? Do you think it's time as a metagame staple is beginning to fall off or is there still more to be explored with it?

Was scrolling through the forums while thinking about Dragapult after playing and experimenting with teambuilding, as well as thinking about the top 10 Pokemon in OU, and this kinda reminds me of something I wanted to actually talk about and highlight.

There is some sentiment among some players that specs Pult isn't as threatening with players prepping for it, but the more I play and watch games, the more I feel like, at least in recent times, it's proven to still be capable of exerting immense pressure. It has been pointed out before but a lot of specs Pult's best answers have fallen off, with Mandibuzz being outclassed and nonthreatening and Blissey being very "meh" and exploitable. And even the best universal ghost check, Tyranitar, has been moving towards choice band sets, which makes it also more easily pressured with a resulting lack of leftovers (especially as it can ONLY switch into specs shadow ball if running band itself, as draco meteor hits too hard and potential coverage is equally threatening).

Adding to this, Eeveeto pointed this out

Pult outspeeds almost the whole Meta and this is also true with MODEST (which I consider better, since it only loses to Koko and ties to Weavile) nature.

Which I have to agree with. Modest Pult only misses out on jolly Weavile and any Koko. Thus by running modest, specs Pult pushes many of the KO thresholds and makes them easier to reach with minor chip.

Modest Specs Pult vs Spdef Lando and Spdef Heatran

Spdef Lando has to avoid falling below 90% or else it can't come into Modest Pult reliably, especially with rocks up. Whereas Timid Pult needs it at 80% when coming in on rocks.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 150-177 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Whereas vs Spdef Heatran

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Heatran: 123-145 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Heatran: 135-160 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- 75.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Modest Pult makes it easier to smash through without even needing rocks. It pretty much limits this Spdef Heatran to one switch in, especially with rocks up, while timid needs rocks to do the same. Now of course this isn't too hard to do, but it's still notable.

Modest Pult vs Clefable and Tapu Fini

This one doesn't seem as notable compared to Lando, but using Modest Pult allows it to pick it off from around 84%.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fini is a big difference.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 124+ SpD Tapu Fini: 108-127 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 124+ SpD Tapu Fini: 118-141 (34.3 - 40.9%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Again rocks make both easier kos, but modest not necessitating rocks helps a lot in wearing it down. And against, limits the times Fini can come in vs modest, usually not more than once while against timid it can potentially do so many times.

Misc note but AV torn can still check both sets of specs Pult while at high health but pressured by rocks. Though rocks ensures modest 2HKOs AV torn from 90% with rocks up while timid is a roll of 50%ish.

What I really want to highlight is how easy those thresholds are to reach in this more offensive metagame, with very minor support. Ironically one great way is thanks to Weavile as both it and specs Pult sorta share many checks (heatran, Tapu Fini and Clefable). Weavile can pressure all three with knock off and drop them into that 2HKO range for modest specs Pult while also removing valuable leftovers that keep them from switching comfortably into modest Pult.

I think what truly makes specs Pult, especially modest, so effective is the fact offense is running the tier right now, and specs Pult is very good info opposing offense. And between shadow ball and draco, Pult also has fairly customizable 3rd/4th slots. I seen some wild tricks like willomiss on modest specs to ruin Ttar switching in (especially banded Ttar), or dragon breath on slot 4 to cripple heatran/lando switch ins with paralysis.

Between this, and its other sets that are plenty viable, I'm of the opinion Pult is a top 5 Pokemon in the tier (well actually top4 behind the big three but hey). It's still a huge presence that exerts immense pressure, and commands respect. And for this reason I want to ask what other players think of Pult. Where do you place it in the metagame right now? What sets do you think are best? What checks do you think are the best?

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Between this, and its other sets that are plenty viable, I'm of the opinion Pult is a top 5 Pokemon in the tier (well actually top4 behind the big three but hey). It's still a huge presence that exerts immense pressure, and commands respect. And for this reason I want to ask what other players think of Pult. Where do you place it in the metagame right now? What sets do you think are best? What checks do you think are the best?

I don't think I'd put it top 5 because Thorn, Clef, Chomp, and Torn-T are also really strong contenders around that but it's easily top 10 and still very good. After that post I will say I changed my mind a bit on specs pult because there's actually quite a bit more options than I think I really understood or experimented with at the time (I admittedly don't use it much because it just never ends up on my teams). A lot of the way I had been using specs was the pseudo offensive pivot with timid and U-turn, which is still a pretty good set but one that's definitely seen better days

1. Modest is definitely the way to go IMO. Its power makes it a lot better at picking things off and threatening stuff like Landorus with just SB especially, and that's always nice since thankfully the thing attracts chip to it like a damn magnet lol. Pult has to be pretty careful around Koko and Weavile anyway (and ice shard still threatens timid pult).

2. Ditching U-Turn can be really nice. It does admittedly limit its utility but I really like being able to run dual coverage since Pult's switch ins tend to be a lot more cut and dry than something like Lele or Volcanion which, while terrifying, have to pretty smartly predict.

I haven't tried Wisp but that does sound like something nice to try.

One thing I will say is I still haven't had much luck with DD Pult. I don't really like the set and think it's kind of an awkward and unwieldy wincon, even though it's pretty scary to play against (but I wonder if that just comes from me choking and expecting specs sometimes lol)

I tend to change my mind a lot (but the tier also tends to change a lot) but I moreso think of the top 10 as just two groups that I can't be bothered to split hairs and order

1-3: Lando, Tran, Weav
4-10: Clef, Thorn, Pult, Torn, Slowbro, Chomp
Honorable Mentions: Melm, Kart, Zapdos

 

[viivian]

has anyone ever explored scarf heatran recently? ik that set hasn’t seen use since ORAS, but it can be a nasty surprise for an unsuspecting opponent thinking they were able to take out heatran with a faster mon. it’s pretty damn scary to face against if you manage to get it in safely, especially after you’ve cleared out any pesky waters and dragons trying to switch in. here’s the set:

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Eruption

this set becomes especially devastating once you switch into a fire move and grab a free power boost to cause even more devastation. while it can be prediction reliant, and keeping tran fully healthy can be a challenge, i’ve found mitigating those issues to be pretty easy when you pair it with teleport support from slowbro and defog support from torn-t. overall, while niche, scarf tran is an underrated cleaner than can rip apart teams with impunity if left unchecked.

thoughts on this set?

 

[Cratersmash]

has anyone ever explored scarf heatran recently? ik that set hasn’t seen use since ORAS, but it can be a nasty surprise for an unsuspecting opponent thinking they were able to take out heatran with a faster mon. it’s pretty damn scary to face against if you manage to get it in safely, especially after you’ve cleared out any pesky waters and dragons trying to switch in. here’s the set:

View attachment 429189
Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Eruption

this set becomes especially devastating once you switch into a fire move and grab a free power boost to cause even more devastation. while it can be prediction reliant, and keeping tran fully healthy can be a challenge, i’ve found mitigating those issues to be pretty easy when you pair it with teleport support from slowbro and defog support from torn-t. overall, while niche, scarf tran is an underrated cleaner than can rip apart teams with impunity if left unchecked.

thoughts on this set?

I've seen it mostly on Sun, where it nukes everything with Eruption

 

[Xenocide88]

has anyone ever explored scarf heatran recently? ik that set hasn’t seen use since ORAS, but it can be a nasty surprise for an unsuspecting opponent thinking they were able to take out heatran with a faster mon. it’s pretty damn scary to face against if you manage to get it in safely, especially after you’ve cleared out any pesky waters and dragons trying to switch in. here’s the set:

View attachment 429189
Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Eruption

this set becomes especially devastating once you switch into a fire move and grab a free power boost to cause even more devastation. while it can be prediction reliant, and keeping tran fully healthy can be a challenge, i’ve found mitigating those issues to be pretty easy when you pair it with teleport support from slowbro and defog support from torn-t. overall, while niche, scarf tran is an underrated cleaner than can rip apart teams with impunity if left unchecked.

thoughts on this set?

Strong on Sun. I'd probably drop Magma Storm from the choice sets, especially for a scarfer that's just too risky a button to click imo.

 

[ZannaBianca]

Strong on Sun. I'd probably drop Magma Storm from the choice sets, especially for a scarfer that's just too risky a button to click imo.

Agreed, not much use for a risky trapping move if the role is that of a cleaner, probably better to go with Fire Blast in that slot

Edit: Now that I think of it, Magma Storm could be useful if your main concerns are double Regen shenanigens wasting precious PP or Sun turns

 

[Xenocide88]

Agreed, not much use for a risky trapping move if the role is that of a cleaner, probably better to go with Fire Blast in that slot

Edit: Now that I think of it, Magma Storm could be useful if your main concerns are double Regen shenanigens wasting precious PP or Sun turns

Magma Storm in Sun 150 BP+1/8th HP per turn 75% Accuracy
Fire Blast in Sun 165 BP @85% Accuracy (10% Burn chance for residual damage, mostly negligible here)
The damage is close to comparable, but if you hit a burn, I think Fire Blast ends up doing more damage. Fire Blast will hit a lot more often, that's just numbers, so by that metric it will out damage Magma Storm in all likelihood even if their regenerator core is switching as you're likely hitting for +50% and hazards each turn. Scarfed Magma Storm does entirely eliminate the problem but will be less reliable.

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Sun: 267-315 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Sun: 294-346 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Sun: 162-191 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Sun: 177-209 (44.9 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(Lol, good luck with this one)

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So for Pex it's kind of meh. It could be packing Shed Shell, and without Taunt it can just Recover anyways. If Glowking is AV you can trap it, but if it's any other set it could have access to Slack Off. If Slowbro is the Colbur variant and you have rocks your rolls to 2hko before it can Slack Off are much better. Torn gets blown up by both, and Modest Scarf still outruns 168 Timid Torn. Then there's this...

252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Sun: 399-469 (110.5 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Sun: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

That's probably the button you want to be clicking most of the time.

 

[ZannaBianca]

Magma Storm in Sun 150 BP+1/8th HP per turn 75% Accuracy
Fire Blast in Sun 165 BP @85% Accuracy (10% Burn chance for residual damage, mostly negligible here)
The damage is close to comparable, but if you hit a burn, I think Fire Blast ends up doing more damage. Fire Blast will hit a lot more often, that's just numbers, so by that metric it will out damage Magma Storm in all likelihood even if their regenerator core is switching as you're likely hitting for +50% and hazards each turn. Scarfed Magma Storm does entirely eliminate the problem but will be less reliable.

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Sun: 267-315 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Sun: 294-346 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Sun: 162-191 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Sun: 177-209 (44.9 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(Lol, good luck with this one)

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So for Pex it's kind of meh. It could be packing Shed Shell, and without Taunt it can just Recover anyways. If Glowking is AV you can trap it, but if it's any other set it could have access to Slack Off. If Slowbro is the Colbur variant and you have rocks your rolls to 2hko before it can Slack Off are much better. Torn gets blown up by both, and Modest Scarf still outruns 168 Timid Torn. Then there's this...

252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Sun: 399-469 (110.5 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Sun: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

That's probably the button you want to be clicking most of the time.

What you wrote is absolutely true but I don't think Pex and Slowtwins calcs are as relevant since the role of a Scarf Heatran would be as a cleaner more than a breaker, so you would assume that these potential switch-ins are already heavily damaged. If using Specs however...

252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage

And for Slowking there is still Solar Beam as an option:

252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking in Sun: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Xenocide88]

The discussion was about Scarf Tran on Sun, where with the weather boost it can act as both a breaker and cleaner. Specs Tran is a whole other monster. I can see Solar Beam on Scarf Sun sets, I hadn't considered doing the calc for that since I was mostly weighing Magma Storm vs Fire Blast.

 

[658Greninja]

Anyone else think Weavile is somewhat overrated atm? It doesn’t feel overwhelming to me anymore like it was when Band Beat Up was all the rage. From watching wcop, compared to mons like Melm and Torn, its not doing that particularly well despite being so hyped up as top 3 or even potentially broken by some (including me at one point). We’ve seen many frequent defensive cores of Flame Body Tran + dark resist frequently in these games where Weavile risks getting burnt. Am I not wrong?

Another thing to note is that Melm’s presence is at its peak rn. Its performance in wcop is something that can’t be ignored, Melm has established itself as one of if not the best breaker in the tier with its combination of offensive and defensive utility. Tect + Tox has been its most frequent set, being amazing at forcing progress against everything outside of the steel birbs or Ferro and being so phat that very few things in the tier can OHKO it at high hp makes it invaluable for BO/Balance. Ferro, Zone and Corv usage has also seen a drop. Assuming trends continue, Melm could possibly become top 5, but it is too soon to claim.

My option on the meta has changed, it is well balanced to a tee.

Gonna make another post some other time, its gonna be about theorycrafting and tech.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Anyone else think Weavile is somewhat overrated atm? It doesn’t feel overwhelming to me anymore like it was when Band Beat Up was all the rage. From watching wcop, compared to mons like Melm and Torn, its not doing that particularly well despite being so hyped up as top 3 or even potentially broken by some (including me at one point). We’ve seen many frequent defensive cores of Flame Body Tran + dark resist frequently in these games where Weavile risks getting burnt. Am I not wrong?

Another thing to note is that Melm’s presence is at its peak rn. Its performance in wcop is something that can’t be ignored, Melm has established itself as one of if not the best breaker in the tier with its combination of offensive and defensive utility. Tect + Tox has been its most frequent set, being amazing at forcing progress against everything outside of the steel birbs or Ferro and being so phat that very few things in the tier can OHKO it at high hp makes it invaluable for BO/Balance. Ferro, Zone and Corv usage has also seen a drop. Assuming trends continue, Melm could possibly become top 5, but it is too soon to claim.

My option on the meta has changed, it is well balanced to a tee.

Gonna make another post some other time, its gonna be about theorycrafting and tech.

well non-Banded Beat up Weavile was always manageable imo, the main issue for me was definitely banded beat up, but beat up requires a specific team structure to work, telegraphing it at the outset and even with that can't outright ohko most of it's checks with it that it outspeeds and so if you're able to generate momentum and status their team, beat up becomes far more manageable.

 

[Moyashi]

Anyone else think Weavile is somewhat overrated atm? It doesn’t feel overwhelming to me anymore like it was when Band Beat Up was all the rage. From watching wcop, compared to mons like Melm and Torn, its not doing that particularly well despite being so hyped up as top 3 or even potentially broken by some (including me at one point). We’ve seen many frequent defensive cores of Flame Body Tran + dark resist frequently in these games where Weavile risks getting burnt. Am I not wrong?

I couldn't disagree more. Weavile being prepped for to this extent is a testiment to its influence in the metagame, and its unrivaled ability to force progress with knock off makes it valuable in every game. Past that, yes flamebody Tran+dark resist cores are a thing, yes it presents a risk of burns to Weavile, but that risk is also present for that Heatran user. Should they switch in, you risk a knock. And if you don't end up burning the Weavile, you now lack your item for longevity. It is a two way street. Plus, while a good set, you do have some opportunity cost of not running flash fire for opposing heatran.

The metagame has become.much more offensive in response to Vile, so naturally there will be some match ups it isn't as amazing in. But it is still a massive threat.

Melm is a great pokemon btw, top 10 right now. But top5 is really stretching it imo as only really toxtect is that notable to that extent. Its other sets are good but not that amazing (choice band blows, and assault vest is really awkward sometimes). Plus Top5 is a very contentious grouping. Past the big three, you still have excellent pokemon like TornadusT, the rising Clefable, and of course Dragapult. Plus other staples.

My option on the meta has changed, it is well balanced to a tee.

Eh. I find it pretty boring atm but that may partly be end of generation syndrome after having played so much already, might be burn out. (I also hate the rash of veil offense specifically on ladder but that is its own thing).

I dunno i just don't feel incentivized to be build anything diffenent lately.

 

[Tapeworm]

Anyone else think Weavile is somewhat overrated atm? It doesn’t feel overwhelming to me anymore like it was when Band Beat Up was all the rage. From watching wcop, compared to mons like Melm and Torn, its not doing that particularly well despite being so hyped up as top 3 or even potentially broken by some (including me at one point). We’ve seen many frequent defensive cores of Flame Body Tran + dark resist frequently in these games where Weavile risks getting burnt. Am I not wrong?

Another thing to note is that Melm’s presence is at its peak rn. Its performance in wcop is something that can’t be ignored, Melm has established itself as one of if not the best breaker in the tier with its combination of offensive and defensive utility. Tect + Tox has been its most frequent set, being amazing at forcing progress against everything outside of the steel birbs or Ferro and being so phat that very few things in the tier can OHKO it at high hp makes it invaluable for BO/Balance. Ferro, Zone and Corv usage has also seen a drop. Assuming trends continue, Melm could possibly become top 5, but it is too soon to claim.

My option on the meta has changed, it is well balanced to a tee.

Gonna make another post some other time, its gonna be about theorycrafting and tech.

Gonna agree with everything here but I couldn't not Haha your post given how much of a 180 it is compared to how outspoken you'd been about Weav just a few post back in this thread. The meta definitely has a good range of defensive and offensive options to deal with Weav that most team structures can accommodate well without compromising a team's ability to function against most other matchups (unless the team is generally ass, but that's on the builder, the tools are all there), it's for sure still good in its offensive roles still and offers fantastic role compression that a lot of teams love, but it shouldn't be an 'oh shit' moment at preview.

Melm's good, always been good. Hate Tox/Tect, fat bastard. With it's rising popularity I see Zone clawing its way back up with it, they're a great pairing, disrupting the fat Steel + fat Water + fat Ground defensive structures which could otherwise just pivot around in your face and block your progress, people are gonna start taking advantage of the trend eventually.

 

[Xenocide88]

With how teams are preparing for Weavile, I am beginning to unironically think Protective Pads Swords Dance might be the meta set poised to succeed best at the moment. Ferro might be on a slight decline, but it's usage is still well beyond relevant. Zapdos has seen an uptick in usage, more teams consider Buzzwole as their Vile check. Heatrans with Flame Body and Rocky Helmets on everything. Teams are already well equipped with a defogger to cover the lack of Heavy-Duty Boots, and an Axel onto a Helmet Chomp does more than Rocks to you anyways. Plus you could pair Weavile with Spikes because not only does it appreciate the extra damage thresholds, but your opponent is more likely to defog their own rocks away for you.