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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Pex is worse now than ever before. It’s deadweight in a lot of matchups and enables many of the hardest things to swap into. It’s usage has plateaued, if not fallen, and it’s viability leaves it in the “good, but not problematic or close to banworthy” territory.
Pex has never received support in surveys — including from the general public and qualified players. Banning Toxapex would be the most lazy piece of tiering ever right now. It doesn’t present an issue and stall is less common now than ever, but yet it’s a scapegoat as the face of a nonexistent problem.
Sincr Finch so succinctly summed up Pex in the meta, imma just leave that topic. Will just leave my two cents on HDB and then move on.
Not broken item or unhealthy. Nor are they an auto add to everything. Not all defensive pokemon even. And offensive pokemon, even Weavile, run non boots items to great effect. They simple add another layer to the game and building. And we have tools to handle them.
Not broken item or unhealthy. Nor are they an auto add to everything. Not all defensive pokemon even. And offensive pokemon, even Weavile, run non boots items to great effect. They simple add another layer to the game and building. And we have tools to handle them.
Generally speaking, I think the main "stupid" aspect of Boots is the infinite switching that it can enable in certain cases. Regenerator Pokemon are not necessarily the main abusers of this item (apart from Torn-T) but they can help enable this sort of style by resulting in a net-positive gain for the player performing the infinite switching. One situation I saw where the 1000 turn limit of a battle was enacted was due to a player constantly switching between a Mandibuzz and a Toxapex, and the player fighting them did the same thing with their Pokemon.
That being said, I hardly think this sort of situation warrants a ban of the item. From what I've seen, this sort of situation occurs in the mid- to late-game when both players largely have only passive pokemon alive that will struggle to make progress in the situation. And even without Boots, its not like these situations won't continue happening. Just replace Boots Mandibuzz with Clefable, or use Defog slightly earlier in this cycle so that the field is Hazard-less and it will still continue happening.
Another "stupid" aspect is that it makes a lot of Offensive Pokemon like Volcarona, Weavile, and Dragonite harder to revenge kill or deal with. I do see how this is the case, as a well played Volcarona or Dragonite can become unstoppable. However, with Volcarona and Dragonite specifically, I feel that they still need to be played much more conservatively and saved more for the late-game, so as to not get statused or get Knocked Off. As such, its difficult to make use of other potential Utility they'd have in the early-game, like checking Rillaboom, since that will leave them crippled for the rest of the match and less likely to sweep. In essense, Heavy Duty Boots grants these Pokemon more leeway and allows them to sweep more reliably, but doesn't fundamentally change how these Pokemon are played.
It's not so much as one mon abuses it but moreso because it makes the tier feel unrewarding. Compare it to something like gen seven. Hazards were still incredibly dominant especially with Greninja being a spiker but they are never overbearing because there are so many options for hazard removal. Yes, setting hazards takes just one click but so is removing them and it's not the same in something like gen five where your only options for removing them are Excadrill or Tentacruel, only two pokemon. The mons that set hazards like Garchomp and Heatran are easy to use and the ones that remove them are just as easy like Tornadus or Landorus
If a player managed to get in a good position and put their enemy where they either sack their hazard removal or lose a far more crucial pokemon, that player should be rewarded. Now, even if you manage to do just that, that lil shit Tapu Koko is still not gonna get punished for switching in. Not just Koko but practically every pokemon that can run the item. That effort of trying to get rid of the opposing hazard removal sometimes feel pointless because hazards ain't doing there jobs
In short, it just reduces the stakes of a battle and doesn't reward a player for making a good play
I don't understand the argument of a boots or hazards suspect. Even as someone who has been really inactive in the tier over the last 3 months or so, it baffles me. Hazards and Boots are some of the healthiest things in this meta.
Hazards themselves can be risky to set up sometimes, the only times it really isn't risky is during a hazard trade in Lando v Lando matchups, but setters always has to worry about letting a wallbreaker or sweeper in for free. Ferrothorn worries about Volcarona, Heatran, and even Urshifu while Lando worries about Weavile, Volcanion, or the same Urshifu. On the flipside, defog carries the same kinds of risks. Torn-T doesn't want to let Weavile, Koko, or Zera get in for free, or god forbid defog on a bisharp switch and give them a free SD.
People say Boots water down that balance, make hazards less useful. In a generation where Z-Crystals and Mega Stones couldn't be knocked off and Knock itself was run pretty rarely, I would agree. However in a meta where Knock Off is on every single team, be it on Lando-T, Weavile, Torn-T, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Kartana, Zeraora, hell even Clefable means that just swapping in boots mons isn't always an option. Having your boots mon lose its boots means not only did it never have a form of recovery in leftovers to heal damage, but their boots might be rendered useless the first time they swap in. Boots are not a get out of hazards free card, they help against hazards for sure, but can be taken away and will leave you in a horribly compromised position if you rely on it too much.
Hazards themselves can be risky to set up sometimes, the only times it really isn't risky is during a hazard trade in Lando v Lando matchups, but setters always has to worry about letting a wallbreaker or sweeper in for free. Ferrothorn worries about Volcarona, Heatran, and even Urshifu while Lando worries about Weavile, Volcanion, or the same Urshifu. On the flipside, defog carries the same kinds of risks. Torn-T doesn't want to let Weavile, Koko, or Zera get in for free, or god forbid defog on a bisharp switch and give them a free SD.
People say Boots water down that balance, make hazards less useful. In a generation where Z-Crystals and Mega Stones couldn't be knocked off and Knock itself was run pretty rarely, I would agree. However in a meta where Knock Off is on every single team, be it on Lando-T, Weavile, Torn-T, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Kartana, Zeraora, hell even Clefable means that just swapping in boots mons isn't always an option. Having your boots mon lose its boots means not only did it never have a form of recovery in leftovers to heal damage, but their boots might be rendered useless the first time they swap in. Boots are not a get out of hazards free card, they help against hazards for sure, but can be taken away and will leave you in a horribly compromised position if you rely on it too much.
As someone who is also extremly inactive and bad at comp, i have the genuenly question, why boots are bad?
I mean, when SR was introduced, a lot of mons just dropped out of viability forever, it changed team builing, countering, and planning forever for multiple generations, to the point where game freak buffed moves to help
So now we have a pair of nice looking sneakers who save countless mons from probably the most dangerous move in the game, and now everyone is mad? I mean, I know theres the argument of "Look at that stall man" but you have a buffed knock off, other means of indirect dmg, and also actual attacks
The biggest argument from banning boots would be the "Game of inches" but here we have to actually study how actually game changer and how often the "i would have won with rocks but the drip of those boots its too good and now that mandibuzz just roosted off my attack"
I guess i want/need to be sold
PD: this is completly unrelated but you know imagine Volcarona wearing drip but no legs or drip to support it
What I don't like about boots is that it makes planning out a sweep less consistent/reliable, thus forcing much more scouting. It used to be easier to take a glance at the state of the oppositions team and have a fairly good idea whether or not you can take it away from there. Surprise HP/def EV's is one thing, but missing out on hazard damage means you can throw most calcs out the window before extensive scouting/knocking.
Pinning down bulkier teams has become a lot harder and momentum is more easily lost. Regenerator compounds this issue of course, and in my opinion plays much bigger part in slowing down this meta.
I kind of hate the design of HDB and i feel it promotes a less fun way of planning the game (to me at least), but I don't think it's overcentralizing or broken.
Personally, I think it makes sweeping more consistent, at least in the late game once the big roadblocks to your sweeper are out of the way. In the same way that HDB lets the opponent otherwise live unexpected hits, it also does the same for your sweeper and lets them set up more reliably, particularly in neutral matchups. A Volcarona at 100% HP is able to set up very easily vs a wider pool of threats than a Volcarona at 50% HP. Now, Volcarona is a bit of an extreme example, but it also applies to other Pokemon like Dragonite and Weavile.
Boots are fine. The boots/regen argument pretty much boils down to two mons in particular: Torn and Pex. Torn is probably the most banworthy pokemon right now (alongside Weavile), combining a level of progress-making ability + defensive support that is unhealthily overwhelming when taking into account its absurd longevity due to boots+regen.
As for Pex, for sure it is below average in the meta right now. But SZ had mentioned the key argument here perfectly in one of his Melm suspect posts. Pex has warped the meta so much around itself that the excessive countermeasures people started taking against it now feel like the general practice. It has had too much influence over determining what's good/viable (FS+breaker, Lele, Knock off Spam) in the meta. A lot of what we consider "standard" is partly an excessive adaptation to Pex that has become "standard" since Pex would be too much of a dominant force otherwise. Even then, perhaps the most concerning aspect of Pex is the ability to shrug off powerful STAB SE attacks to click toxic/tspikes/knock off and then switch out to be good as new.
Bottom line is, Pex is rarely out there making outcome-changing contributions in matches at the moment cause the meta is too reactive to it. It's absence would allow a lot more mons and strategies to flourish while making the tier healthier and more enjoyable as a whole.
Honestly, Pex has been brought up time and time again over the course of the metagame, a good portion of the player base supports the suspect. I do not get the reluctance of the council to take any sort of tiering action against this mon. If it's not banworthy, it won't get the votes. It's just really that simple.
This is especially concerning that we just had Melm suspect test, which ended with just half the votes being cast and with a ridiculous 86% no ban. Posts in the suspect thread displayed completely opposite views of the metagame, yet agreed on the no ban on Melm. You can literally pick any random mon from the A+/S list and you'd still have more ban votes. It's just sad to see a mon getting tested that the community almost unanimously considered fine, while tiering action on certain other mon(s) that had vocal complaints against since the inception of the tier get completely brushed off over and over again.
As for Pex, for sure it is below average in the meta right now. But SZ had mentioned the key argument here perfectly in one of his Melm suspect posts. Pex has warped the meta so much around itself that the excessive countermeasures people started taking against it now feel like the general practice. It has had too much influence over determining what's good/viable (FS+breaker, Lele, Knock off Spam) in the meta. A lot of what we consider "standard" is partly an excessive adaptation to Pex that has become "standard" since Pex would be too much of a dominant force otherwise. Even then, perhaps the most concerning aspect of Pex is the ability to shrug off powerful STAB SE attacks to click toxic/tspikes/knock off and then switch out to be good as new.
Bottom line is, Pex is rarely out there making outcome-changing contributions in matches at the moment cause the meta is too reactive to it. It's absence would allow a lot more mons and strategies to flourish while making the tier healthier and more enjoyable as a whole.
Honestly, Pex has been brought up time and time again over the course of the metagame, a good portion of the player base supports the suspect. I do not get the reluctance of the council to take any sort of tiering action against this mon. If it's not banworthy, it won't get the votes. It's just really that simple.
This is especially concerning that we just had Melm suspect test, which ended with just half the votes being cast and with a ridiculous 86% no ban. Posts in the suspect thread displayed completely opposite views of the metagame, yet agreed on the no ban on Melm. You can literally pick any random mon from the A+/S list and you'd still have more ban votes. It's just sad to see a mon getting tested that the community almost unanimously considered fine, while tiering action on certain other mon(s) that had vocal complaints against since the inception of the tier get completely brushed off over and over again.
TBF, a higher percentage of people believed that action should be taken on Melmetal compared to other mons in the tier, including Pokemon like Heatran and Weavile, as shown by the survey results, which is why I believe it was suspected in the first place. As such, I don't think it was unanimously considered fine under that context, even with the results of the suspect tests in mind.
Perhaps a survey could be conducted on HDB, Toxapex, etc. but it might be too late at this stage of the metagame with Scarlet and Violet coming out soon. We will see though.
I'm guessing scarlet and violet will be awful metagames for the first 6 months, I think we should try to resolve gen 8 now before it becomes another BW, where it's a problematic metagame cuz they didnt take action sooner. I think weavile, lele, torn and pult will be considered very problematic a few years down the line if they arent already, and tour players might grow to hate this metagame. I think right now offense is actually extremely strong, those 4 I mentioned are autopilot mons that provide great benefits at little drawback, and strategies will evolve to optimize thier use.
I understand why prople didnt want to ban mel for the sake of metagame stability cuz it keeps a lot of offensive threats in check, but I think if anything that means those mons should be looked at for a suspect.
We had a "poll" (survey) with inclusion of Heavy Duty Boots earlier in the generation and it was nowhere near enough support for tiering action.
Despite this we also had a policy review thread here a bit earlier in the generation to make sure we did our due diligence on the matter. There was nowhere near enough support and keeping boots was the unquestionable consensus.
So let's say we ignore all of this because in the last few months changed with HDB to make it go from perfectly balanced to broken, now we have three weeks to:
- suspect HDB
- potentially deal with a ban (it would not get near enough support, but hypothetically if it would) that reshapes the entire OU metagame that will happen less than a week before SV drops
- have every single lower tier deal with the same conundrum
I stopped the discussion of this because enough due diligence was done on it and the support was not there. A handful of thread posters stirring up a commotion does not suddenly mean that the majority of a playerbase of thousands of players is going to support this or that it makes sense in the grand scheme of things.
So since the new shiny pokemon game its about to come out, and theres a 99% chance of no more bans or tests or major shakeups, i think we can start packing up and look at the gen with nostalgic feeling, what do you guys liked, disliked, loved and hated about the gen overall? even tho i was nowhere near present, i fucking hated the dracovish/Clef port spam, and i liked that there was some more room for actual creativity, and everyone seems on a way better shape than gen 7 ou lmao
as for me, only played at the start and end, but had a bit of fun trashing low ladders and getting trashed because im an even lower ladder
Btw, quick reminder to put Choice Scarf ditto on your first day of work or your gonna die
as for me, only played at the start and end, but had a bit of fun trashing low ladders and getting trashed because im an even lower ladder
Btw, quick reminder to put Choice Scarf ditto on your first day of work or your gonna die
TornT is nowhere even close to overwhelming or unhealthy. It is a fantastic pivot and glue for teams, a great knock user and highly versatile, but it isn't difficult to beat with a remotely decently built team. It's a common knock and status victim, and its just average bulk is often forgotten because it has deceptive longevity due to regen.
Pex is at a low point because the meta has naturally grown in a way that is less favorable to it. Things like future sight, lele and knock spam being good have very little to do with Pex supposed influence on the metagame. All of these would be as prominent (if not more) if Pex wasn't around. They're naturally effective.
This isn't early gen8. Pex is not some get out of jail free card against even strong SE hits. There are many pokemon it cannot just eat a hit from and then switch out for free. Strong hits exist that leave it chipped to a point of being less able to switch into what it should be switching into. Its overreliance on status/knock is exploitable itself. Heck even something like Weavile can and does take advantage of Pex. SD sets have been shown in games to force it into an awkward recover+haze loop that can see haze being pp stalled.
The metagame isn't even reacting to Pex like it did earlier in gen8, or like has to other pokemon durinh the crown tundra metagame. There are many more pokemon that have caused far more notable reactive developments in the CT. Rocky helmet spam and dark/ice checks due to Weavile, Gastrodon and RotomW popping back up to help with Volcanion but also Zapdos and other special attackers.
It got brought up earlier in the generation when there were less tools to deal with it. But nowadays it has less impact than ever and is more annoying than it is unhealthy. And frankly... Vague claims like "a good portion of the player base supports the suspect" despite playerbase surveys not even mentioning it in any large capacity... They have no weight or meaning. Especially without proof. The burden of proof is on you.
Tldr; Pex is more than fine in the metagame.
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I like gen 8 competitive compared to 7 and 6, largely due to a general mindset shift I had this generation.
Before, particularly in Gen 7, I was more focused on having a team that covered every single matchup. This made teambuilding a chore, since there would always be some niche threat I wasn't able to cover. That was still an issue for me this generation, but I felt it was a bit easier to branch out by considering the synergies that various Pokemon had. At first, it was w/ Pokemon like Grassy Terrain + Hawlucha, where the terrain conditions were integral to the Pokemon, but after observing other, more creative players, I tried out some more "general" strategies (where a Pokemon would benefit from a Terrain / weather, but it wasn't integral to their success). Strategies like Volcarona + Misty Terrain to avoid Toxic, Heatran + Grassy Terrain to give it more longevity, Galarian-Slowbro + Grassy Terrain to nullify its EQ weakness from Landorus-T, etc. Prioritizing these kind of synergies over covering every single matchup made playing the game significantly more fun, particularly as I had to also manuever more cleverly during a battle to guarantee a positional advantage in order to benefit from the effects of things like Terrains or Weather. I actually regret not doing this in gen 7 since it seems like it would have been even more rewarding there.
My favorite metagame was the IoA since it felt like a lot of Pokemon were viable in that format. I didn't like the large amount of powercreep the CT meta had compared to the IoA meta.
Pex has certainly shaped the metagame a lot but I think the point was that it was more suspect worthy than mel , not that action should actually be taken against it, especially at this point. Even if a suspect happened it would not actually get any significant support
I really enjoyed the IoA meta in particular, as Magcargo already brought up, there were a ton of viable mons that were fun to use.
Coming back after taking a break around the mid-point of Tundra meta, I actually also really like how the meta has shaped up. It seems like the tier has settled fairly significantly, with nothing standing out as egregiously broken. Which means that one of my least favorite Pokemon games will ironically become one of my favorite competitive retro gens, once gen 9 comes out.
I'm also pretty happy with the tiering action taken this gen. I know it can't have been easy managing 3 different metagames in quick succession. While some things probably stuck around a touch too long (Darkfu, Spectrier, Vish), these things were considered and handled in a reasonable way. The fact that Melmetal, the Pokemon which had the most support behind it for tiering action, was not banned by such a convincing margin, indicates to me that we now have a fairly healthy metagame.
EDIT: Also agree with the below post in many aspects.
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I disagree with the notion that it is way to difficult to force progress in the tier. If anything it is one of the easiest to progress.
We have several wallbreakers from the likes of Heatran, Kart, Lele, Shifu, Blaziken, etc. Even the speed demons of the tier, Pult, Koko, Weavile have their own ways of forcing progress through repeated dmg on their checks.
We also have hazards, pivot moves, Knock, Future Sight, Trick, etc
Those complaining about boots don’t realize that a good portion of HDB users will usually be switching into mons with Knock. Take for example Torn who is tasked with switching into Rilla, Kart, and defogging, leaving it vulnerable to being knock’d by certain hazard setters. Or the Slowtwins who will be switching into Knocks from Pex or Torn.
Imo this generation has been the most on and off out of them all. It started with a hostile dynamax metagame before moving to a very stale Clef/Corv/Toad tier before we all realized how fucking stupid Dracovish was. SS OU was going in a good direction but it still had problems like Port Clef making games feel eternal. Then IoA was introduced and with it came power creep, Rilla, Magearna, Cinderace, tutor moves, and Darkfu. It was a somewhat fun but awful metagame. Even after the bans of Mag and Cinder, it feel into a dark spot. Teams were comprised of Clef/Pex or Pex/Mandi cores cause of Darkfu’s prescene, then Pex forced progress easily if you didn’t have either Clef or a Pex of your own. These two metagames had alot in common. They had the potential to be great and interesting due to the dex cut allowing for pokemon that either fell off due to power creep or never seen massive OU success before. Just to list most of them.
Rhyperior, Primarina, Keldeo, Terrakion, Heattom, Mandibuzz, Alakazam, Mantine, Conk, Gengar, Chandelure, Incineroar, Snorlax, etc.
On the other hand the metas ended up being overly centralized with one or two broken threats and would not be fixed as the next wave of DLC would come. Which would bring back several OU staples and lead us to banning a bunch of shit, from Genesect all the way to Kyurem, and that brings us here to current Gen 8. This is one of the most balanced generations since ADV and DPP. While there has been some mons debated to be suspect worthy like Tran, Torn and Pult, I never felt restrained when teambuilding like I did in the previous SS metas. There are so many interesting synergies due to Future Sight, Terrain, the offensive threats we have, and the moveset variety that has transpired due to the plethora of restricting threats that are no longer present. While I’ll miss rocking teams with CB Rhyperior, I am glad we aren’t in a state of the meta where I had to prepare for Darkfu, the lamest broken mon. I hope in Gen 9 we can learn from the mistakes of what will be considered an old gen in three weeks.
We have several wallbreakers from the likes of Heatran, Kart, Lele, Shifu, Blaziken, etc. Even the speed demons of the tier, Pult, Koko, Weavile have their own ways of forcing progress through repeated dmg on their checks.
We also have hazards, pivot moves, Knock, Future Sight, Trick, etc
Those complaining about boots don’t realize that a good portion of HDB users will usually be switching into mons with Knock. Take for example Torn who is tasked with switching into Rilla, Kart, and defogging, leaving it vulnerable to being knock’d by certain hazard setters. Or the Slowtwins who will be switching into Knocks from Pex or Torn.
Imo this generation has been the most on and off out of them all. It started with a hostile dynamax metagame before moving to a very stale Clef/Corv/Toad tier before we all realized how fucking stupid Dracovish was. SS OU was going in a good direction but it still had problems like Port Clef making games feel eternal. Then IoA was introduced and with it came power creep, Rilla, Magearna, Cinderace, tutor moves, and Darkfu. It was a somewhat fun but awful metagame. Even after the bans of Mag and Cinder, it feel into a dark spot. Teams were comprised of Clef/Pex or Pex/Mandi cores cause of Darkfu’s prescene, then Pex forced progress easily if you didn’t have either Clef or a Pex of your own. These two metagames had alot in common. They had the potential to be great and interesting due to the dex cut allowing for pokemon that either fell off due to power creep or never seen massive OU success before. Just to list most of them.
Rhyperior, Primarina, Keldeo, Terrakion, Heattom, Mandibuzz, Alakazam, Mantine, Conk, Gengar, Chandelure, Incineroar, Snorlax, etc.
On the other hand the metas ended up being overly centralized with one or two broken threats and would not be fixed as the next wave of DLC would come. Which would bring back several OU staples and lead us to banning a bunch of shit, from Genesect all the way to Kyurem, and that brings us here to current Gen 8. This is one of the most balanced generations since ADV and DPP. While there has been some mons debated to be suspect worthy like Tran, Torn and Pult, I never felt restrained when teambuilding like I did in the previous SS metas. There are so many interesting synergies due to Future Sight, Terrain, the offensive threats we have, and the moveset variety that has transpired due to the plethora of restricting threats that are no longer present. While I’ll miss rocking teams with CB Rhyperior, I am glad we aren’t in a state of the meta where I had to prepare for Darkfu, the lamest broken mon. I hope in Gen 9 we can learn from the mistakes of what will be considered an old gen in three weeks.
I have but there are so many defensive cores that you will need to fill your entire team with wall breakers in order to not get walled.
stall is incredibly annoying to play against, there are a lots of defensive cores meaning that you have to make an entire team full of wall breakers in order to be properly prepared.
and some cores need specific pokemon in order to be broken.
like the landorus+corviknight core, the ONLY pokemon that can take this core down with its STAB moves is volcanion.(while there are electric-ice types out there,their stats and moves aren't that good)
or the toxapex+landorus/hippodown+zapdos core, ONLY pokemon that can beat this core with its STAB moves is mamoswine(which is not a very good pokemon).
Former:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 427-504 (111.7 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 734-866 (183.5 - 216.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Later:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 379-447 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Psychic Terrain: 343-405 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 462-546 (151.9 - 179.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You don't need an entire team of wall breakers to break stall. You just primarily need a couple of strong mons (preferably backed up with hazard support) and know how to manage them well during the match.
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defensive landorus some times increases its special defence.
even if it doesn't,if the enemy has a heatran in their team then blacephalon will be forced to switch.
as about tapu lele since it is not guaranteed OHKO on zapdos it is not a proper councer.(37.5% chance to OHKO isn't that high).
also running psychic on tapu lele has a big opportunity cost,since it needs to beat blissey with psyshock,and needs thunderbolt more.
even if it invests 252 hp, 252 spdef, and a nature in spdef, lando still doesnt have recovery, so you can just switch out and attack later
Also 2hkoing zapdos means you beat it???