Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

[LordHelix]

Comparing Arena Trap in any capacity to Magnet Pull is a farce because the scope of what they trap is absolutely incomparable. Magnet Pull, as peng described, literally only works on one type, which already makes it infinitely easier to prep for since you can react accordingly upon seeing a Magnezone or just slap on a Shed Shell or some other counter tech in the teambuilder. On the other hand, Arena Trap works on everything but two types + levitators. There is no conceivable way you can do Magnezone-style counter-teaming with every single suspectible Pokemon without gimping your team. In addition, 2 out of the 3 things that are immune to Arena Trap would beat Dugtrio anyway if it had any other ability. Mandibuzz, Corviknight, Rotom-Wash and so on were never gonna lose unless Dugtrio just so happened to have Mold Breaker or Huge Power or something. What this does is centralize the meta around Arena Trap and its few innate checks, which with the exception of the likes of Corviknight aren't infallible: Flyings are weak to Stone Edge, there are only a handful of viable Levitators and two of the 3 main ghosts get fricced by STAB EQ anyway even if they can switch out. An ability which eliminates an essential option for 6v6 play - the act of switching - from 88% of the type chart and Levitators has no place in a competitive environment.

Trapping everything means nothing if you cant actually beat the pokemon, diglett right here traps more pokemon than magnezone or pursuit ever did but it means nothing if all it does is get 30-60% off and die

88% of the type chart is hugely exaggerated when realistically the only pokemon getting consistently trapped are steel, rock, poison and electric types

I dont disagree on dugtrio being a problem at all, but stop acting like arena trap is synonymous to dugtrio because its not the same

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

To add to this, magnezone trapped about the same number of threats it did as diglett and trapinch theoritcally trap this gen

Last gen it trapped celesteela, skarmory, ferrothorn, defensive jirachi, scizor, kartana if scarfed and weakened av magearna. In addition to being hard to switch into in general if specs

Ill cover the threats trapinch and diglett can beat, diglett is the least reliable to due to its absolutely horrendous damage outout.

trapinch targets

Trapinch with sash traps tyranitar, excadrill, bisharp, dracozolt, crawdaunt (first impression has 30% chance to ohko after rocks), mamoswine (ohkos after rocks), toxtricity and drednaw

Situationally trapped pokemon are: toxapex (needs to be running max speed adamant and not get burned), ferrothorn (with super power if under 50%), dracovish (if under 50% and sashed), clefable (if under 50%), cinderace (if sashed and cinderace is choice locked)

diglett targets

Diglett with sash traps tyranitar, excadrill, bisharp (when under 85%), dracozolt, toxtricity, drednaw and.. flareon

Situationally trapped pokemon are: toxapex (eq does 40% max), ferrothorn (if sub reversal and ferro is under 55%). Dracovish (if under 46% or if not scarf)

Basically from my "theorymon" they trap around the same amount of threats that magnezone trapped, and worse of all is they dont even offer any defensive utility or offensive presence like specs or av magnezone did. The babies are literally just there to trap one threat and thats it whereas dugtrio can trap tyranitar, excadrill and weakened clef or pex in the same game

Dugtrio is different to the other arena trappers and magnezone since cause it can afford to run band and still outspeed basically the whole metagame with its excellent speed tier. Or run sash and get more than 2 attacks on anything

#justiceforthebabies

can you people just stop with this shit like for real? it's obvious that neither you nor Taco Bell there have any idea what you are talking about but I’m not going to address their essay because I have better things to do. this is just for anyone that would skim yours and think, ya that's legit.

"Basically from my "theorymon" they trap around the same amount of threats that magnezone trapped, and worse of all is they dont even offer any defensive utility or offensive presence like specs or av magnezone did. The babies are literally just there to trap one threat and thats it whereas dugtrio can trap tyranitar, excadrill and weakened clef or pex in the same game"

---- to be honest. I dont know how you've played even 3 games of pokemon and even remotely think that this is true. both can trap literally any mon besides ghosts and flying mons (besides levitators) and will come on and take out any weakened mon that you might need besides those mentioned for fucking free. and these are prevos. not only that you have to be forced to dance around it because of it; unless you wanna run shed shell on every single mon.



actually you know what
"As for trapping in general being a broken/uncompetitive mechanic, if that really is true, then Magnet Pull should also be banned (although I see a few players who believe that Magnet Pull should also be banned so kudos to them for their consistent logic). If widespread trapping is the broken and uncompetitive mechanic, then Pursuit should also be banned. Arena Trap on Trapinch/Diglett is more comparable to Pursuit and Magnet Pull than Arena Trap on Dugtrio or Shadow Tag in terms of what it can BOTH TRAP AND ELIMINATE. Diglett and Trapinch can only trap a select few of the metagame reliably, just like Pursuit and Magnet Pull."


-- this is an extremely wrong statement. not only can you switch out with pursuit, you can easily exploit it. for magnet pull, you can play around it or run shed shell on your steel mons so you had counterplea from the beginning, but you know that since you tried and play that down by comparing arena trap and shadow tag to fucking pursuit lmaoooo.

when pursuit gets higher base power and higher speed and can switch up types of moves on mons lmk, and like we all said before, it can trap whatever it wants for the most part. but I’m done having this conversation, we've all agreed that it needs to go yet people like yall continue this pointless lying

 

[Tacotaco]

Comparing Arena Trap in any capacity to Magnet Pull is a farce because the scope of what they trap is absolutely incomparable. Magnet Pull, as peng described, literally only works on one type, which already makes it infinitely easier to prep for since you can react accordingly upon seeing a Magnezone or just slap on a Shed Shell or some other counter tech in the teambuilder. On the other hand, Arena Trap works on everything but two types + levitators. There is no conceivable way you can do Magnezone-style counter-teaming with every single suspectible Pokemon without gimping your team. In addition, 2 out of the 3 things that are immune to Arena Trap would beat Dugtrio anyway if it had any other ability. Mandibuzz, Corviknight, Rotom-Wash and so on were never gonna lose unless Dugtrio just so happened to have Mold Breaker or Huge Power or something. What this does is centralize the meta around Arena Trap and its few innate checks, which with the exception of the likes of Corviknight aren't infallible: Flyings are weak to Stone Edge, there are only a handful of viable Levitators and two of the 3 main ghosts get fricced by STAB EQ anyway even if they can switch out. An ability which eliminates an essential option for 6v6 play - the act of switching - from 88% of the type chart and Levitators has no place in a competitive environment.

Please reread what I said on my original post. Arena Trap on Trapinch/Diglett is more comparable to Pursuit and Magnet Pull than Arena Trap on Dugtrio or Shadow Tag in terms of what it can BOTH TRAP AND ELIMINATE. Following your logic, Pursuit can also be banned since you can Pursuit trap (but not necessarily eliminate) every Pokémon.

LordHelix basically nailed what I have to say. Stop acting like Arena Trap and Dutrio are synonymous.

can you people just stop with this shit like for real? it's obvious that neither you nor Taco Bell there have any idea what you are talking about but I’m not going to address their essay because I have better things to do. this is just for anyone that would skim yours and think, ya that's legit.

"Basically from my "theorymon" they trap around the same amount of threats that magnezone trapped, and worse of all is they dont even offer any defensive utility or offensive presence like specs or av magnezone did. The babies are literally just there to trap one threat and thats it whereas dugtrio can trap tyranitar, excadrill and weakened clef or pex in the same game"

---- to be honest. I dont know how you've played even 3 games of pokemon and even remotely think that this is true. both can trap literally any mon besides ghosts and flying mons (besides levitators) and will come on and take out any weakened mon that you might need besides those mentioned for fucking free. and these are prevos. not only that you have to be forced to dance around it because of it; unless you wanna run shed shell on every single mon.



actually you know what
"As for trapping in general being a broken/uncompetitive mechanic, if that really is true, then Magnet Pull should also be banned (although I see a few players who believe that Magnet Pull should also be banned so kudos to them for their consistent logic). If widespread trapping is the broken and uncompetitive mechanic, then Pursuit should also be banned. Arena Trap on Trapinch/Diglett is more comparable to Pursuit and Magnet Pull than Arena Trap on Dugtrio or Shadow Tag in terms of what it can BOTH TRAP AND ELIMINATE. Diglett and Trapinch can only trap a select few of the metagame reliably, just like Pursuit and Magnet Pull."


-- this is an extremely wrong statement. not only can you switch out with pursuit, you can easily exploit it. for magnet pull, you can play around it or run shed shell on your steel mons so you had counterplea from the beginning, but you know that since you tried and play that down by comparing arena trap and shadow tag to fucking pursuit lmaoooo.

when pursuit gets higher base power and higher speed and can switch up types of moves on mons lmk, and like we all said before, it can trap whatever it wants for the most part. but I’m done having this conversation, we've all agreed that it needs to go yet people like yall continue this pointless lying

You can also exploit a Trapinch, Diglett, and even Dugtrio if they are choice-locked. Also, let's not forget that you are sacrificing a TEAM SLOT for Trapinch and Dugtrio. What if your opponents have nothing worth trapping on their team?

"both can trap...and take out any weakened mon that you might need besides those mentioned for fucking free"

Pursuit can take advantage of any weakned Pokémon just as Arena Trap on Diglett and Trapinch. If it is a Ghost or Psychic-type, it doesn't even need much chip to trap them. Anyway, it seems to me that you're just nitpicking arguments by conveniently leaving out the disadvantages of using Trapinch and Diglett over Pursuit and Magnet Pull. Plus you are theorizing without giving actual proof. I mentioned in my comment to also post replays, as that would help change my mind.

 

[Jordy]

I believe I said this already, but this is not the thread to discuss whether Dugtrio or Arena Trap is what should be dealt with. Once again, you're free to discuss Dugtrio's place in the metagame and whether you believe it to be unhealthy or not, but I don't want to see any more posts that try to argue whether it's approperiate to deal with Arena Trap as a whole or just Dugtrio. The next post that brings this up will be infracted and deleted.

 

[p2]

arena trap should just be banned instead of preserving lc mons because we saw what happened last gen, it was nowhere near the same scale as dugtrio but trapping still existed and still influenced games as much as dugtrio could - there is really no argument for this because we HAVE seen and experienced it already and nothing makes it any different this gen, and trying to prove otherwise is a waste of council time to be acting on tiering

 

[Deleted User 229847]

-- this is an extremely wrong statement. not only can you switch out with pursuit, you can easily exploit it. for magnet pull, you can play around it or run shed shell on your steel mons so you had counterplea from the beginning, but you know that since you tried and play that down by comparing arena trap and shadow tag to fucking pursuit lmaoooo.

Your magnet pull statement is extremely wrong too. Why should a pokemon be forced to use shed shell because there's a trapping ability in the game? My answer is: because people have a huge bias against stall and want to fuck it over, but the core problem is another one. Why is it fine to run shedshell (a suboptimal item) on your steel types but not on your offensive sweeper (which was literally the argument for not running shed shell on tapu lele, because it was suboptimal)? It's not like I can run shed shell on kartana or ferrothorn without being heavily punished for it.

Is trapping uncompetitive? Or is it not? Because either trapping is uncompetitive or none of the trapping abilities are. Which is such an easy concept to understand, really. There is a huge hole in the logic of most people here, and it's kinda crazy that it was normalized and swept under the rug since we already dealt with it so it shouldn't be considered again.

 

[Jordy]

Don't discuss Magnet Pull here either. I don't understand how that wasn't obvious, but it is literally not a part of the metagame because no Pokemon gets it right now.

If you really feel so strongly that all trapping abilities should be treated equally, I suggest that you take it up with the Tier Leader, council, or make a Policy Review thread.

 

[Dragoon Rider]

CM Clef is an actual set on defensive just switch out rocks/t-wave for Calm Mind.
If you want to put CM on LO Clef i suggest putting CM over Moonlight.
And washtom is the only one who can "lure" and burn ferro and most of the time Toad wants to be your wash-tom switch in plus washtom is kinda mediocre.
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 84-100 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 29.5% chance to 3HKO
here's the aegis calc btw
And aegis one shots back, no matter whether it's specs or band.

CM over moonlight was best during the dynamax days when you could just get 3 KOs after a CM due to being able to tank everything. Now you want recovery to repeatedly switch into Seismitoad, Pex, Buzz, certain Corviknight, etc over the course of the game.

Defensive CM without coverage is just too passive especially since its walled by Corviknight. One it gets softboiled we will probably start to see Bold CM clef with two attacks again.

IDK what you are saying about ferro. Burning ferro with toxapex, rotom, seismitoad, dragapult, scald in general, and so forth is a timeless strategy against ferrothorn to chip it down and make it easier to switch into. I know the Aegis calc. That means if it switches in and takes two attacks its taking over 60% so it only gets to force Clef out once maybe twice. It's also very common to get the +1 boost unexpectedly (ie on a recover or stealth rocks) to where it can't even switch in safely at all.

 

[Robot7620]

CM over moonlight was best during the dynamax days when you could just get 3 KOs after a CM due to being able to tank everything. Now you want recovery to repeatedly switch into Seismitoad, Pex, Buzz, certain Corviknight, etc over the course of the game.

Defensive CM without coverage is just too passive especially since its walled by Corviknight. One it gets softboiled we will probably start to see Bold CM clef with two attacks again.

IDK what you are saying about ferro. Burning ferro with toxapex, rotom, seismitoad, dragapult, scald in general, and so forth is a timeless strategy against ferrothorn to chip it down and make it easier to switch into. I know the Aegis calc. That means if it switches in and takes two attacks its taking over 60% so it only gets to force Clef out once maybe twice. It's also very common to get the +1 boost unexpectedly (ie on a recover or stealth rocks) to where it can't even switch in safely at all.

CM over moonlight is not the best, I was simply throwing out options.
It does do very well against slower bulkier teams due to Magic Guard however.
Defensive CM is also an actual set, I believe Finchinator made

this

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind

set it is outdated (I believe made a month ago?) but it's viable if you don't require T-Wave support(or if it's unneccessary) or if you already have a rocker. idek how the hell dragapult lures ferrothorn, fire blast exists, and it takes a ton from WoW hex.

 

[Ruft]

Cloyster @ King's Rock / Focus Sash / White Herb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Liquidation / Ice Shard / Explosion / Spikes / Toxic Spikes

Because Cloyster has been getting somewhat popular as a Shell Smash sweeper, I was just wondering what most people run as its fourth move. Its first three moves are quite obvious: Shell Smash is its main niche which it uses to set up, Icicle Spear is STAB that abuses Skill Link, Rock Blast is coverage that also abuses Skill Link. Its fourth move is more debatable however:

• Liquidation is STAB that can get past foes that resist Ice and Rock, mainly Aegislash and Bisharp. One of the main reasons most people run King's Rock is for the ability to get past checks like this by flinching with its other attacks though.
• Ice Shard is STAB priority which can be quite useful. There are some notable Pokemon in OU that do outspeed +2 Cloyster such as Choice Scarf users like Dragapult, Gengar and Dugtrio, as well as Unburden-activated Hawlucha. Ice Shard can also be used to outspeed other priority moves like Mach Punch from Conkeldurr, Sucker Punch from (non-Choice Scarf) Dugtrio, and Prankster moves from Grimmsnarl.
• Explosion is a one-time nuke that can be used against foes that Cloyster struggles to break like Toxapex, and it maintains momentum by providing a free switch-in opportunity. Naturally you have to look out for Ghost-types when using this. It also doesn't really help with its Steel problem.
• Spikes or Toxic Spikes can be used to take advantage of the switches that the threat of Shell Smash Cloyster can force, similar to how Ash Greninja runs Spikes in SM OU.

I was just wondering what people's thoughts are on this matter. There's also the question if you should even use King's Rock or run Focus Sash, White Herb or even Heavy-Duty Boots instead. Even its nature is up for debate since both Adamant and Jolly have their advantages.

While it's partly dependent on the team on which it is used, what set do you think is optimal for Cloyster to run in general?

EDIT: Here's what TIBot says about what it runs in 1695 OU:
Moves: Shell Smash 99.132% | Icicle Spear 98.751% | Rock Blast 83.822% | Ice Shard 35.243% | Liquidation 34.275% | Spikes 22.622% | Toxic Spikes 10.079% | Other 16.076%
Items: King's Rock 36.799% | Focus Sash 20.843% | Heavy-Duty Boots 17.808% | White Herb 13.165% | Leftovers 7.229% | Other 4.155%
Spreads: Adamant: 0/252/0/0/4/252 39.101% | Jolly: 0/252/0/0/4/252 9.444% | Adamant: 0/252/4/0/0/252 4.947% | Adamant: 248/120/0/0/0/140 4.668% | Jolly: 0/252/4/0/0/252 3.991% | Impish: 188/56/16/0/0/248 3.457% | Other 34.392%

 

[Mame YO]

I’ve been saying this since the dynamax ban but the CM set you want to be running is this:


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Moonlight

It’s walled by Toxapex and gastrodon and is forced out by many of the the standard offensively oriented clef checks but it also can lure some clef checks and set up on them. Rotom H loses to this version as long as Clefable gets one CM off on the switch which is notable because it’s super easy to achieve this condition. Flamethrower is preferred to allow it to set up on Ferrothorn and then kill it. Max defense and hp with a bold nature helps it survive an iron head from excadrill or bisharp and KO back (in the case of drill, you need a boost or prior damage) if you absolutely have to, but it also help tremendously versus a plethora of physical attackers expecting the squishier LO set.

edit: honestly, once you remove the 1-2 mons each team is running that stops a sweep you can set up and proceed to kill 4 mons straight to end a game. It’s potent.

 

[TheDoff]

Just throwing 2 cents in.

So I always like to build my own teams. sometimes they're standard, sometimes I try to find some whack mons that counter some meta threats. Sometimes they do well, sometimes they suck.

What I'm getting at here is that I've tried quite a lot of stuff on ladder.
The conclusions I've reached are a few:

First off, Dugtrio invalidates SO MUCH innovation and usage of mons that might have a good niche, but see it disappear because they either run shed shell or are dugtrio food EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Here's the problem, every time. It will have zero counterplay. There will always be better mons than others, but I should have the ability to try to build with something without worrying that it will die every time it gets a kill.

Secondly, I don't know if the community has given up/moved on from this, but I feel dracovish is another problem that needs to be addressed. I can't think of another mon that has the potential to OHKO everything in the tier bar immunities and ferrothorn without any boost (lol). It forces you to run a water immunity on every team (I have yet to build a well rounded team without seismitoad) on ladder and turns the matchup into a constant 50/50 between crunch and FR.
I don't feel like I've explained this well but I seriously think this is a latent problem, meaning it's not overwhelming but only because toad is on every team. And toad has many things going for it, but so do other stealth rockers, and except for exca/mew on HO toad offers too much value as a check to this thing to not pick something else.

I'd love to see these things get suspect tested (I think its long overdue) and I like to imagine a ban for both would present a healthier, less restrictive and more competive meta.

 

[Mame YO]

With the relatively limited pool of Pokémon available I feel like mons like dracovish and dugtrio are a much bigger influence on the meta than they would be in a national dex meta and that influence is not positive (so much so that dugtrio was already banned previously because of it). Considering the limited pool of mons, I think that it should be a priority of the tiering council to try and promote meta diversity and both of these mons are significant inhibitors to that much needed diversity imo. I wholeheartedly agree with TheDoff on this. There should at least be suspect tests.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

Trippolino (Quagsire) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Toxic
- Scald
- Earthquake

Quagsire>Seismitoad. it hits for way less, a little bit more physical tankiness and a bit less special one, but i get a reliable way of recovering, completely shutting down dracovish (who can destroy seismitoad with 40/44% psyschic fang, even more with crunch). I lose setting potential but got a ferrothorn to back it up. Thinking about actually removing ferro for a better setter.

Flareon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Flare Blitz
- Copycat

This thing is fucking nuts lol. It makes flareon a potential setter, it lets you steal phantom force against dragapult, it gives you volt switch momentum vs rotom... it's so nice to have and it's even a reliable recover against clefable, copying moonlight when she needs to in order to preserve wish PPs.
Insane that I am running fucking flareon on my stall team but beggars (stallers) can't be choosers.
Sassy nature because I want to move slower and I also want my spatk as high as possible.

 

[aceguy123]

Cloyster @ King's Rock / Focus Sash / White Herb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Liquidation / Ice Shard / Explosion / Spikes / Toxic Spikes

Because Cloyster has been getting somewhat popular as a Shell Smash sweeper, I was just wondering what most people run as its fourth move. Its first three moves are quite obvious: Shell Smash is its main niche which it uses to set up, Icicle Spear is STAB that abuses Skill Link, Rock Blast is coverage that also abuses Skill Link. Its fourth move is more debatable however:

• Liquidation is STAB that can get past foes that resist Ice and Rock, mainly Aegislash and Bisharp. One of the main reasons most people run King's Rock is for the ability to get past checks like this by flinching with its other attacks though.
• Ice Shard is STAB priority which can be quite useful. There are some notable Pokemon in OU that do outspeed +2 Cloyster such as Choice Scarf users like Dragapult, Gengar and Dugtrio, as well as Unburden-activated Hawlucha. Ice Shard can also be used to outspeed other priority moves like Mach Punch from Conkeldurr, Sucker Punch from (non-Choice Scarf) Dugtrio, and Prankster moves from Grimmsnarl.
• Explosion is a one-time nuke that can be used against foes that Cloyster struggles to break like Toxapex, and it maintains momentum by providing a free switch-in opportunity. Naturally you have to look out for Ghost-types when using this. It also doesn't really help with its Steel problem.
• Spikes or Toxic Spikes can be used to take advantage of the switches that the threat of Shell Smash Cloyster can force, similar to how Ash Greninja runs Spikes in SM OU.

I was just wondering what people's thoughts are on this matter. There's also the question if you should even use King's Rock or run Focus Sash, White Herb or even Heavy-Duty Boots instead. Even its nature is up for debate since both Adamant and Jolly have their advantages.

While it's partly dependent on the team on which it is used, what set do you think is optimal for Cloyster to run in general?

I run Cloyster quite a bit and have done so to high ladder. I've only ever ran Ice Shard and Spikes and that's like a 90/10 split. Never tested explosion but have tested Liquidation. I think Ice Shard is the best option by quite a bit because it allows you to finesse a sweep after weakening certain things, gives you a revenge kill option, and allows you to outplay things with sucker punch. You get walled by Aegislash but generally Aegislash needs one flinch to get past anyway. Bisharp cannot kill if it comes in to revenge and you're at full plus you can outplay if you come in on it.

The reason I'll never run Liquidation again is this
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 184-217 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
big pile of bullshit.

The reason I've never tried explosion is this
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 256-302 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
big pile of bullshit.

The best thing to run if you want to (for whatever reason) setup while Pex or Aegi is alive is Spikes for momentum.

Don't bother using Cloyster without King's Rock or Adamant set. You should always be able to luck out Pex, Seis, and Quag so that stall players cry, that's just common courtesy.

 

[Ruft]

Aegislash @ Air Balloon
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Close Combat

New set gaining popularity. Jolly is very important as it lets you hit the 220 speed benchmark which allows you to outspeed Mew after webs, along with other base 100s such as Flygon (any more speed is unnecessary as you can simply win the tie). Besides that, 252 evs in atk to hit as hard as possible and 80 evs in hp to add some much needed bulk. Iron Head and Close Combat offer good coverage and Shadow Sneak gives you STAB priority to hit everything Jolly Aegislash doesn't outspeed. This set has been tried and tested in SPL, so you know it's heat.

Adamant 252 Spe has 219 Speed which outspeeds -1 +Spe nature 252 Spe base 100s too as they have 218 Speed. The main point of your spread hitting 220 Speed is actually outspeeding these Adamant 252 Spe Aegislash and Modest 252 Spe Clefable, which hit 219 Speed, rather than tying.

 

[TheDoff]

Aegislash @ Air Balloon
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Close Combat

New set gaining popularity. Jolly is very important as it lets you hit the 220 speed benchmark which allows you to outspeed Mew after webs, along with other base 100s such as Flygon (any more speed is unnecessary as you can simply win the tie). Besides that, 252 evs in atk to hit as hard as possible and 80 evs in hp to add some much needed bulk. Iron Head and Close Combat offer good coverage and Shadow Sneak gives you STAB priority to hit everything Jolly Aegislash doesn't outspeed. This set has been tried and tested in SPL, so you know it's heat.

Ive been using balloon aegi for a bit now, its amazing how free it becomes vs Conkeldurr teams. Its great vs excadrill too until you get flinched. Another set i used was this:

Aegislash @ Air Balloon (Life Orb/Leftovers)
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Steel Beam/Close Combat
- Autotomize

It will be a free switchin on Conk for the whole game, and is great to weaken the opposing team by spamming shadow ball / flash cannon. It doubles easily as a late game cleaner as not many people play around autotomize, and their counter may be Hydreigon/Obstagoon, that get obliterated by CC. Steel Beam KOs mandibuzz from like 70% which is insane. The main problem is SpD Corviknight but as soon as it gets weakened, after a single autotomize this set outspeeds even Dragapult by one point and can really go to town with the stab + CC or Steel beam combo.

Underrated set, try it out.

 

[Jordy]

With people talking about Quagsire, I'd like to shift some attention to a Pokemon I've been having a lot of fun and success on the higher end of the ladder with: Curse Gastrodon.

set

Gastrodon-East @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Curse

First things first, I'd briefly like to touch upon using Gastrodon instead of Quagsire. The most important thing that Gastrodon offers over Quagsire is the ability to pivot into and check Pokemon such as Dragapult, Hatterene, and Gengar. While it may not be as good at checking Dracovish as Quagsire due to its comparatively worse physical bulk, you're dealing with a Dracovish that isn't locked into Fishious Rend, which is quite easy to handle all things considered. Gastrodon can often come in against passive Pokemon such as specially defensive Clefable to restore its HP, so being worn down by Dracovish isn't a particularly big deal in practice very often.

Moving on, I'd like to touch upon why Curse Gastrodon is good in particular. There's really not a lot of teams that are prepared for Curse Gastrodon; teams often rely on overpowering it with Pokemon such as Conkeldurr, which can be worn down quickly. Beyond that, Ferrothorn can prove to be annoying but it can also be worn down quite quickly, especially if you manage to burn it with a teammate. Against the very common Clefable balance builds that we're seeing right now, Curse Gastrodon can be a very overwhelming presence due to the amount of switch-ins it gets and how hard it can be to punish.

One thing that I do think is worth noting is that you should really only use Curse Gastrodon alongside a cleric like Aromatherapy Clefable, as Gastrodon will often end up getting crippled by Pokemon such as Rotom-H and Seismitoad.

 

[TheDoff]

I just lost turn one to kings rock beat up weavile.
It flinched my drill, would have gotten ohkod back but nah its 6-0ing me instead.

BAN Kings rock
BAN Quick Claw
Ban these bullshit luck based items you can slap on any mon and luck out the opponent with.

This is the definition of uncompetitive. Might as well unban moody and double team if you're going to allow these luck based strats to exist.




Ye I'm salty sorry :/ I mean it tho

 

[Deleted User 229847]

I just lost turn one to kings rock beat up weavile.
It flinched my drill, would have gotten ohkod back but nah its 6-0ing me instead.

BAN Kings rock
BAN Quick Claw
Ban these bullshit luck based items you can slap on any mon and luck out the opponent with.

This is the definition of uncompetitive. Might as well unban moody and double team if you're going to allow these luck based strats to exist.




Ye I'm salty sorry :/ I mean it tho

Yea, I have literally no idea why quickclaw is banned but king's rock is deemed competitive and/or okay, the entire point of the item is making the enemy skip his turn, there are no other tactics that use this item, it's simply flinch your way to the victory. I didn't even know it was unbanned since it makes really no sense given the current item banlist.

 

[TheDoff]

Yea, I have literally no idea why quickclaw is banned but king's rock is deemed competitive and/or okay, the entire point of the item is making the enemy skip his turn, there are no other tactics that use this item, it's simply flinch your way to the victory. I didn't even know it was unbanned since it makes really no sense given the current item banlist.

Quick Claw is a legal item as of right now on any mon you wish

(Why)

 

[Jordy]

Quick Claw isn't banned so the argument that King's Rock shouldn't be unbanned because Quick Claw isn't simply doesn't exist. I don't really think this is an argument appropriate for this thread; it falls more in-line with the policy of Smogon in general.

 

[Nugget]

Just wanted to drop in and say that I hate this Rotom-Heat set:

gross standard rotom

Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 228 HP / 64 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Nasty Plot
- Overheat
- Volt Switch

this set honestly disgusts me because of the prospect of boosting with NP just to volt switch or overheat
gross truly gross
and the grossest thing is this set is honestly good in this meta because of Corviknight/Ferrothorn
you can't even swap out wisp for some other attacking move because your options are another electric move are dark pulse and both suck total ass

trick rotom

Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Will-O-Wisp

What do you guys think about trick Rotom instead? I feel like this set accomplishes a lot of the same stuff as NP rotom except it can ruin Sylveon and Clef with trick, still does stuff against Seismitoad when it switches in, doesn't OHKO Corviknight but Overheat does a HUGE chunk unboosted (81-95%) and Volt Switch applies pressure as well. Still kills Ferrothorn obviously. This set also revenge kills Excadrill as long as it is chipped/isn't sash, or can scarf wisp a physical threat in a pinch. This set gets more fucked up by stealth rocks but if you live your entire life in fear of stealth rocks you will never truly live.

 

[Himura]

What do you guys think about trick Rotom instead? I feel like this set accomplishes a lot of the same stuff as NP rotom except it can ruin Sylveon and Clef with trick, still does stuff against Seismitoad when it switches in, doesn't OHKO Corviknight but Overheat does a HUGE chunk unboosted (81-95%) and Volt Switch applies pressure as well. Still kills Ferrothorn obviously. This set also revenge kills Excadrill as long as it is chipped/isn't sash, or can scarf wisp a physical threat in a pinch. This set gets more fucked up by stealth rocks but if you live your entire life in fear of stealth rocks you will never truly live.

Honestly I prefer Washtom for a scarf trick pivot. Why live in fear of rocks when you can be indifferent to it. Giving up Heatom’s NP also makes his signature fire move choice locked with diminishing returns while Washtom’s hydropump sustains it’s power. Granted wash is better for grounds (bar toad) while heat is better Corvi, ferro, bisharp, and other steels. Trading WoW for T-wave gives a different flavor of disruption, but Heatom gets both. Imo, I will take scarfed Washtom 7 out of 10 times over scarfed Heatom.

When it comes to NP sets, it’s no competition. Heatom is superior to the washing machine on that front. Same with Mowtom.

 

[talah]

Trick + NP Rotom-H is still very much a viable choice, but even without it, the oven is superior to the washer with Scarf just on account of its general qualities. Scarf Rotom-W is a pretty alright set but it does require specific teams to work, since you're giving a fantastic matchup against the omnipresent fairies, as well as giving yourself a handicap vs Toad/Gastro, since you really can't touch them at all, while Rotom-H can.

sure, Rocks are an annoyance; you absolutely have to keep it in mind, but you're also tricking Leftovers, usually, which is still extremely useful. this comes into play with the other really nice quality of Trick Oven, which is that a lot of the time you can Trick their Stealth Rocker. Seismitoad, Kommo-o, Clefable, are all prime Rotom-H targets. this doubles down on the no-boots part and can ensure easier removal.

of course, each has their own set of advantages and weaknesses, but I wouldn't say WashTom holds a candle to HeatTom, with any set. WashTom's best niche is by far the SubNP + Dark Pulse + Discharge set, which does something HeatTom straight up can't.

i'll also say that MowTom is a much better user of TrickScarf than WashTom is, since they have roughly similar defensive qualities with MowTom's offensive presence just being straight up better when using STABs. you do lose out on a good Corviknight check and Mamo check but that's about it.