Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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TPP

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Due to Arena Trap being banned from OU recently, I decided to make a new thread to discuss the new metagame. Arena Trap had a decently big effect on the metagame, as it prevented some wallbreakers from seeing as much usage as they'd like, and it also caused people to resort to using Shed Shell on mons like Toxapex. Now that Arena Trap is gone, the mons that were most affected by Arena Trap now have a new opportunity to shine in OU, and I will go ahead and list them below. Keep in mind that the complete list of mons affected by Arena Trap is far greater than what's below, as depending on the situation, any grounded mon could be revenge killed or finished off by Dugtrio (the most common Arena Trap user).

Offensive mons:


Most of these mons would get trapped after they KO'd a target. In most cases, Earthquake from Dugtrio would immediately KO them, but in other cases, Focus Sash on Dugtrio would allow it to survive a hit and then KO in return with Earthquake or Reversal.

Defensive mons:


Depending on the sets and EV spreads, Dugtrio had the potential to 2HKO all of these, especially if they were to have their item knocked off or if they were statused and/or chipped into Earthquake range. In most cases, these mons would be unable to 1HKO Dugtrio in return, which would allow Dugtrio to 2HKO them before being KO'd itself.

Finally, I'll leave some questions below:

1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?
2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?
3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?
4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?
5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?
6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned? Don't go overboard with this one.

April usage stats post (post #246)
 

Finchinator

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1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?
Terrakion and Kyurem are the two best Pokemon that will see an increase in viability. Terrakion in general was underwhelming initially, but now will likely be one of the better breakers in the metagame. It will face competition from Conkeldurr, but the increased speed tier and dual STAB go a long way, especially when Swords Dance allows for it to be virtually uncountered aside from Hippowdon (who will see an increase in usage itself). Kyurem not being trapped by Focus Sash Dugtrio is huge as now the main counterplay (SDef Clefable) is very prone to being frozen during drawn out games. Other things like Jirachi and Incineroar will see increases in usage to check it, especially with Dugtrio not being able to trap them, but this will not fully slow Kyurem from becoming a top tier offensive threat.

2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?
Dracozolt and Toxtricity. Neither will have much staying power in the tier. The former may be better than the latter, but Dracozolt is held back a lot by Hustle causing inconsistency and a pretty poor defensive standing in the metagame, which is the case regardless of Dugtrio's presence in the tier. Toxtricity falls out in a similar fashion defensively, but it also is in an awkward spot offensively at times as Pokemon like Ferrothorn can wall it and it is oftentimes prediction reliant seeing as it only ever gets free turns against Clefable.

3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?
Hippowdon and Incineroar. Hippowdon is able to defensively answer a lot of things Dugtrio trapped; Terrakion is a big one, but also Excadrill, Zeraora, and Bisharp can be kept in check by Hippowdon. The PDef variant will see a significant increase in usage and I feel like it has a lot of staying power, too. Incineroar may come-and-go depending on Kyurem and the pace of the metagame, but it is solid as a defensive pivot with Intimidate, some nice utility moves, and the ability to maintain momentum.

4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?
Dracovish and Keldeo will suffer a bit. Both of these appreciated having something to straight-up remove Toxapex from the equation, which Dugtrio provided. They also benefit from other little synergies as well such as Zeraora being gone, forced chip on a number of defensive pivots, and free turns that come after Dugtrio dies.

5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?
It will remain balanced oriented, but I think that the cores and combinations we see will begin to shift towards the aforementioned Pokemon more and more as time elapses.

6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
Kyurem is definitely the first Pokemon that comes to mind. Without Focus Sash Dugtrio limiting it to one kill or simply a trade-off, Kyurem is really restrictive and it has chances to break through with some luck over drawn out games regardless of counterplay. One could argue that Terrakion may also pop up a lot more and teams without Hippowdon will struggle with it, but I find that to be a bit out there right now. It is a possibility in the future once the metagame has full evolved, so keep your eyes open for it at least.
 

Jordy

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1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?
Bisharp, a Pokemon that was already rising in usage, is definitely going to be seeing even more usage, as Dugtrio was one of the main factors limiting it previously. The concurrent rise of checks like Hippowdon and Dark-resistant Pokemon such as Terrakion, could hurt its overall viability, though.

3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?
In response to Pokemon like Terrakion, Bisharp, Zeraora, Tyranitar, and Dracozolt, Hippowdon is sure to see more usage. Another Pokemon that I reckon might see more usage is Snorlax, as keeping Kyurem in check is significantly harder without Arena Trap. Snorlax could very well be hurt by these changes overall, though, as it really appreciated Dugtrio's ability to trap Toxapex and is much easier to pressure with the rise of Pokemon like Terrakion. On the topic of Toxapex, it's another Pokemon I reckon may become even better, as it's no longer prone to being trapped by Dugtrio and definitely one of the stronger defensive pivots into Pokemon like Terrakion.

Some other Pokemon like Toxtricity and Dracozolt obviously benefit greatly from the Arena Trap ban, but to avoid turning this thread into an echo chamber, I recommend you read Finchinator's post to read a little more about them.

4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?
Choice Specs Keldeo's viability pretty much stemmed from the fact Dugtrio could trap checks like Toxapex and Zeraora. Without the option to trap those Pokemon, I can't see Choice Specs Keldeo being a remotely viable option in the metagame and I reckon it is pretty likely to be completely replaced by Calm Mind + Taunt variants, which was already slowly happening. Choice Specs Dragapult's another Pokemon I can't see hanging around for much longer, it was already fading into obscurity and the main thread it was clinging onto to stay relevant was Dugtrio. Without the option to take care of its counterplay so easily, I don't see why you'd use it instead of Hex variants in particular, which provide more utility overall, and are much more flexible.

5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?
I think the metagame is very likely to stay a balance centric metagame as it was previously, but I think we are going to see a lot more of Pokemon like Hippowdon and Toxapex to deal with the Pokemon I mentioned throughout this post. As Pokemon start using Hippowdon more, sand teams with Excadrill as Speed control are bound to become even more prominent than they already are too. I reckon it'll be really interesting to see how people settle on dealing with Kyurem from here on out as well; it's really hard to deal with defensively with Pokemon other than specially defensive Clefable and some nicher options like Snorlax and Bronzong.
 
3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?
I think it might be worth taking another look at Arcanine with Dugtrio gone.
1585653705595.png

Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp

Arcanine doesn't just benefit from Dug going because it trapped the dog itself, but also due to a rise in other attackers, notably Zeraora and Cinderace, that it is able to comfortably wall. Intimidate + Will-O makes Arcanine a really strong physical wall that pairs well with Corviknight and many other defensive staples. Speaking of Corviknight, Arcanine can scare it and many other Pokemon out with the constant threat of a burn or flare blitz, allowing you to continue chipping away, get a guaranteed heal/burn or make a double yourself. It really shines as a switch-in though, with Intimidate helping you to pretty much wall out any physical attackers that can't hit you for weakness strongly enough. Heavy-Duty Boots increases its value as a switch in even more, allowing you to bring it in at full HP really often, either starting at full or after a Clefable wish pass.

+3 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 321-378 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 53-63 (13.8 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
-1 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 85-102 (22.1 - 26.5%) -- 14.4% chance to 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 154-182 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 136-160 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can run full defence, however I think 56 speed is super helpful for beating Bisharp - it allows you to outspeed it and kill it with a flare blitz or close combat. Even though Intimidate activates Defiant on switch-in, a +3 sucker punch won't kill you, allowing you to take it out of the game which becomes even more useful assuming Bisharp also spikes in usage. Weakness wise, it's fairly passive, however flare blitz + burns allow you to wear down your opponents team over time, and I believe it can fit pretty nicely on a ton of balance teams looking at the upcoming meta.
 
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Ruft

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I think it might be worth taking another look at Arcanine with Dugtrio gone.
View attachment 232637
Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp

Arcanine doesn't just benefit from Dug going because it trapped the dog itself, but also due to a rise in other attackers, notably Zeraora and Cinderace, that it is able to comfortably wall. Intimidate + Will-O makes Arcanine a really strong physical wall that pairs well with Corviknight and many other defensive staples. Speaking of Corviknight, Arcanine can scare it and many other Pokemon out with the constant threat of a burn or flare blitz, allowing you to continue chipping away, get a guaranteed heal/burn or make a double yourself. It really shines as a switch-in though, with Intimidate helping you to pretty much wall out any physical attackers that can't hit you for weakness strongly enough. Heavy-Duty Boots increases its value as a switch in even more, allowing you to bring it in at full HP really often, either starting at full or after a Clefable wish pass.

+3 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 321-378 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 53-63 (13.8 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
-1 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 226+ Def Arcanine: 84-100 (21.8 - 26%) -- 4.7% chance to 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 226+ Def Arcanine: 151-178 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 226+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You can run full defence, however I think 56 speed is super helpful for beating Bisharp - it allows you to outspeed it and kill it with a flare blitz or close combat. Even though Intimidate activates Defiant on switch-in, a +3 sucker punch won't kill you, allowing you to take it out of the game which becomes even more useful assuming Bisharp also spikes in usage. Weakness wise, it's fairly passive, however flare blitz + burns allow you to wear down your opponents team over time, and I believe it can fit pretty nicely on a ton of balance teams looking at the upcoming meta.
Arcanine gets Teleport which is definitely a great option too to maintain momentum.
 
Arcanine gets Teleport which is definitely a great option too to maintain momentum.
I didn't even realise :psynervous: that definitely adds to its utility if you can find space for it since it allows you to pivot out after a U-Turn or after tanking a hit, allowing you to potentially set up with something once you have Intimidate down.
 
Toxtricity falls out in a similar fashion defensively, but it also is in an awkward spot offensively at times as Pokemon like Ferrothorn can wall it and it is oftentimes prediction reliant seeing as it only ever gets free turns against Clefable.
Ever try running this set?

:swsh/toxtricity:
Mixed Shift Gear (Toxtricity) @ Throat Spray / Life Orb
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shift Gear
- Overdrive
- Boomburst/Sludge Wave
- Fire Punch

The point of this set is to abuse Toxtricity's ability to force switches against Pokémon like Toxapex, while also alleviating its Ferrothorn weakness. Throat Spray provides all the power of Specs without the choice lock, while Life Orb provides more power overall. You'll generally want to run Boomburst for the extra power but if you really hate Clefable and Sylveon, Sludge Wave could also be an option. Might not be the most meta-defining set but it's a nice lure for foes that expected the more common Specs set.

EDIT: Here's a more optimized spread. 2HKOs physically defensive Ferrothorn at +1 after Leftovers recovery and one round of Leech Seed while also outspeeding +1 Excadrill after Shift Gear.

:swsh/toxtricity:
Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 84 Atk / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shift Gear
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Fire Punch
 
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I posted a couple days ago about using Slurpuff and people asked for replays. Not the best, but these show it’s potency. Notably missing is Slurpuff setting up on a weather setter and beating Mantine or Lucodolo.

The set I’m running right now is:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
- Facade / Cotton Guard
Cotton Guard is a bit of a weird choice, but Slurpuff’s movepool is so bad it’s hard to figure what is worth running instead. Previously I had had Facade but there are very few Pokémon Slurpuff can only beat with Facade and I figured it was worth trying out as even one use massively increases Slurpuff’s bulk.

Slurpuff and Zeroara are good partners, as Zeroara beats Toxapex and Aegislash for Slurpuff and Slurpuff beats Gastrodon. Slurpuff also lets Zeroara run Knock Off over Play Rough, helping his 4MSS significantly.

Opponent can’t put on the breaks and S-Dog eats four.
Opponent resigns after slurpy drinks Mantine dry.
I try my best to throw it, but Slurpuff saves my ass.
Slurpuff nimbly dodges toxic before killing five.
 
I think Kyurem is just broken atm, especially with the Duggi Ban. There are basically two checks. This is either Snorlax which you can't fit on any team or a combination of Pex and max Sp Def Clef to force the Freeze Dry and keep the Freeze chances on Clef lower. The problem with just Sp Def Clef is that Kyurem gets too many possibilities to freeze Clef, as Ice Beam is close to 50 and Moonblast damage is relatively low on Kyurem. Also the DD set (Spear, DD, Sub, Tect) is almost an autowin against some teams.
 
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Jumping on the Kyurem discussion and reposting a couple thoughts I had in the previous thread right before it was shut and adding a few comments based on responses. Agreed with the above

Checks:
- Snorlax: no reliable recovery, gets chipped down eventually. best as a curse win-con, which means you can't repeatedly switch into Kyu. very mediocre
- Umbreon: a dark type without knock off, no hazards, no status moves outside of toxic - just way too passive for this meta, though I like that it also stops Specs Aegi (also worth a discussion tbh)
- Bronzong: at least can get rocks up, but tough to fit given ghost / knock off spam. Unfortunately, zong gets TROUNCED by all defoggers (literally all of them, no exaggeration) AND the most common spinner, Excadrill
- Sylveon: probably the best, but because the only recovery is wish+protect, you really can't do much back. very passive unfortunately.

Not checks:
- SpDef Clefable: ice beam does near 50%, clef can't KO it back. If you assume 5 softboils, there is a 40% chance you will have gotten freeze'd at least once. You are most likely to die while Kyurem isn't touched, or best case you hit it with one moonblast and sacrifice yourself
- "try to knock off the specs": someone posted this in the last thread. yes this is a viable strategy, but not a check - just like "if you can toxic it on the switch" is a check for a lot of pokemon. also, Kyurem actually gets HARDER to deal with without specs depending on your team!
- SpDef Clefable + SpDef Toxapex: yes, this is a check technically, but let's not get on the slippery slope of using two pokemon to be a check against one pokemon. when we are resorting to that, it's a reasonable sign something is unhealthy
 
EDIT: Here's a more optimized spread. 2HKOs physically defensive Ferrothorn at +1 after Leftovers recovery and one round of Leech Seed while also outspeeding +1 Excadrill after Shift Gear.

:swsh/toxtricity:
Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 84 Atk / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shift Gear
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Fire Punch
Actually, you only need 164 Spe after Shift Gear to outspeed scarf jolly Excadrill. The extra crispy 8 EV can be dumped into Atk.
But be aware that:
+1 92 Atk Toxtricity Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 264-312 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You won't be able to KO it without some chip damage first
 
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On the subject of kyurem, it's really not worth mentioning these as they're really bad or completely outclassed but I would like to exhaust all switch ins so everyone is aware how small the list of them is:

-Dusclops: Gravity, trick room, will-o-wisp no reliable recovery outside of pain split.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 191-227 (67.2 - 79.9%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 88-105 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 71.9% chance to 3HKO

Centi really needs heavy-duty boots but it's a coin flip not to be 2HKO'd by draco without Assault vest.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch: 369-434 (91.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Centiskorch: 245-290 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- not a KO

Finch mentioned jirachi and Incineroar as checks but you need a combination of one of them and another mon as Lord_Enz has mentioned with clef + pex as both are 2HKO'd. Jirachi can't OHKO unless it's banded or steel beam and uninvested neutral incineroar doesn't 2HKO nor will it get a 2nd hit in.
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 236-282 (60.3 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 294-346 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
184 SpA Jirachi Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 392-464 (100.2 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 356-420 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 159-187 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Incineroar: 246-289 (62.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Incineroar: 369-434 (93.6 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Incineroar: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
This might seem a little out there, but if Zeraora's threat level is risung due to Duggy being gone and Clef moving to more SpDef for Kyurem, I'd like to pitch Physically defensive Celebi w/ Colbur berry as a potential check to Zera.

Yes, Knock off can be a pain to deal with, but Colbur absorbs one and you can usually recover up or even Giga drain yourself outta range of an itemless Knock off by Zera, which enables you to win the 1v1. Especially if they're using lefties over life orb.

Calcs:

+1 252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celebi: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zeraora: 117-138 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously mons like Hippo are a better check to it than Celebi, but Cele's typing also allows it to act as a neat check to Toxapex and Keledo in addition to Zeraora as well as having Natural Cure to absorb Status in a similar fashion to Clef.

As for Kyurem, Max SpDef AV Ttar is an incredible check/possible counter to it, as you eat up anything it wishes to throw at you and 2HKO back with stone edge (even with just 4 Atk EVs). Tar can also check special varients of Aegislash and Dragapult nicely as well, on top of handling mons like Toxtricity if they see more play as a result of Duggy's ban.
 
I think that even though Toxtricity may not be a top-tier mon, it might've at least recovered it's old nice of dealing with Clef, Corvi and Pex. In the new post-home meta, however, we have Zeraora which deals with those last two very well and is faster, but the difference is that Toxtricity can also Volt Switch out, which would be a waste of coverage for Zera. We also have TP Clef which can safely bring in the goon and heal him up for further use.

Toxtricity is at his best when paired with another breaker to get in on Ferro like Conk for example, but obviously Vs Exca you might have to hit the double.

Tbh Toxtricity is one of the cooler mons in the meta that really got saved by the ban and one of my personal favourites, but you can ''t ignore the big issues that come with using it.
 
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I've been using Toxtricity to decent success on webs HO during the suspect test even with Duggy around. He's definitely my favourite gen 8 addition, so I'm excited to continue using him in a metagame without Arena Trap.

That being said the real winner of this ban has to be Kyurem. Not to repeat too much from above posts but I think it might become too much. That being said I have found a theoretical counter.

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Sassy Nature
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball
- Protect

It could perhaps be Bronzong's time to shine in the spotlight. Being a steel type with levitate makes the Zong's typing perfect for matching dragon ice stab with ground coverage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 154-183 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 72-84 (21.3 - 24.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (87 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 186-222 (47.5 - 56.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
 
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This might seem a little out there, but if Zeraora's threat level is risung due to Duggy being gone and Clef moving to more SpDef for Kyurem, I'd like to pitch Physically defensive Celebi w/ Colbur berry as a potential check to Zera.

Yes, Knock off can be a pain to deal with, but Colbur absorbs one and you can usually recover up or even Giga drain yourself outta range of an itemless Knock off by Zera, which enables you to win the 1v1. Especially if they're using lefties over life orb.

Calcs:

+1 252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celebi: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zeraora: 117-138 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously mons like Hippo are a better check to it than Celebi, but Cele's typing also allows it to act as a neat check to Toxapex and Keledo in addition to Zeraora as well as having Natural Cure to absorb Status in a similar fashion to Clef.

As for Kyurem, Max SpDef AV Ttar is an incredible check/possible counter to it, as you eat up anything it wishes to throw at you and 2HKO back with stone edge (even with just 4 Atk EVs). Tar can also check special varients of Aegislash and Dragapult nicely as well, on top of handling mons like Toxtricity if they see more play as a result of Duggy's ban.
I used physdef celebi pretty often about a month ago (s/o pirates). It's a decent check to dracovish and conkeldurr with colbur berry as well. However, I found that building with it was a little awkward as it can let in a lot of dangerous mons like rotom-heat and aegislash. I'm still not sure what the optimal moveset is either. It feels like it has very bad 4mss because you need recover and want to fit psychic/ep/giga/uturn/rocks (doesnt have the best matchup vs a lot of hazard removal though)/twave (more of a luxury) but can only fit 3. Maybe someone with more experience with the mon can chime in. It definitely has potential, but it feels quite flawed as well.
 
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I used physdef celebi pretty often about a month ago (s/o pirates). It's a decent check to dracovish and conkeldurr with colbur berry. However, I found that building with it was a little awkward as it can let in a lot of dangerous mons like rotom-heat and aegislash. I'm still not sure what the optimal moveset is either. It feels like it has very bad 4mss because you need recover and want to fit psychic/ep/giga/uturn/rocks (doesnt have the best matchup vs a lot of hazard removal though)/twave (more of a luxury) but can only fit 3. Maybe someone with more experience with the mon can chime in. It definitely has potential, but it feels quite flawed as well.
I agree on it being tough to build around and figure out the best moveset for it 100%. There are definitely flaws with the mon for sure when it comes to match ups and pther factors. It can be a handy rocker tho if you wish for it to be, as well as having some neat potential in the tier.
 

Ok guys, this may be controversial, but I think Eternatus should be unbanned.
Yo Mama is as big as Eternatus and she is OverUsed by other men

Sorry, I had to.

But to keep this on topic with recent news, I heard about the Metronome nerf.
It sucks, but I still say it is a useful item, even if protect screws it over.
But that gave me the idea of punishing your opponent for protecting. Things like setting up hazards, healing, and boosting your stats. Although that seems even more niche, meme-y, and prediction reliant.
And also remember that not everything runs Protect.
 

Ok guys, this may be controversial, but I think Eternatus should be unbanned.
Yo Mama is as big as Eternatus and she is OverUsed by other men

Sorry, I had to.

But to keep this on topic with recent news, I heard about the Metronome nerf.
It sucks, but I still say it is a useful item, even if protect screws it over.
But that gave me the idea of punishing your opponent for protecting. Things like setting up hazards, healing, and boosting your stats. Although that seems even more niche, meme-y, and prediction reliant.
And also remember that not everything runs Protect.
In what way has the Metronome item been nerfed?
 

Ruft

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In what way has the Metronome item been nerfed?
Metronome boosts reset upon the move failing, which includes missing and being used on Protect. This was not implemented correctly before but it is now. This means Pokemon holding Metronome will often fail to break through Pokemon carrying Protect, like Wish Clefable.
 
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Metronome boosts reset upon the move failing, which includes missing and being used on Protect. This was not implemented correctly before but it is now. This means Pokemon holding Metronome will often fail to break through Pokemon carrying Protect, like Wish Clefable.
Well, mechanically this makes sense. Why would the boost stay even when your move doesn't hit?
 
But that gave me the idea of punishing your opponent for protecting. Things like setting up hazards, healing, and boosting your stats. Although that seems even more niche, meme-y, and prediction reliant.
And also remember that not everything runs Protect.
Most metronome users have a way of punishing protect as it is. Mantine and kyurem can roost or put up a sub while Mamoswine can set rocks. The nerf is still rather massive nonetheless, especially when moves like mamos icicle crash has a decent chance of missing just in general.
 
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