Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

[levitategengar]

Gastrodon got Toxic back with Home. In theory the typical Scald-Toxic-Recover Gastrodon is already back.



The thing that got me confused is that Seismotoad also had that presence and speed (and Stealth Rock) in previous generations, and these advantages were not enough, everybody picked Gastrodon over it. The only exception is being this generation.

Toed > Gastro because in this generation their primary use is so your team doesn't get annihilated by Vish

Seismitoed is better in this regard as with a free switch, Toed can get up rocks and/or knock off the switch in. It's the one of the most consistent rockers. Fits on stall, balance, and HO

Gastrodon is not as good because it is far more passive and can't make great use of a free switch. It doesn't have access to rocks or knock off, just toxic. It's too passive, and it is very difficult to fit Gastro on balance teams given the competition from pex

In previous gens Gastro > Toed because their primary use was being a wall on a stall/balance team. Gastro has reliable recovery which made it better. Balance/stall teams weren't as reliant on Toxapex to stop half the threats in the game since there was more diversity.

 

[Jaajgko]

1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?

Terrakion is huge because it could get trapped by any dug set, and Shed Shell / Shuca are clearly inferior to LO SD or Band sets offensively. Because of that, we often preferred Conkeldurr over it, but now I believe that Terrakion outclasses Conk.
Tyranitar hated having to run Shed Shell, and I could see it making more appearances with the rise of Chandelure and of Ghost types in general.

2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?

Dug was annoying to them but they still have many flaws, and it's not like Dugtrio being banned will increase their viability that much, because many HOs with Cinderace don't mind too much it being gone if it prevented rocks / webs from being on the field, while Toxtricity could viably run Shed Shell, and while it's obviously not optimal, the best item now seems to be black sludge.

3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?
is a really good mon that couldn't afford shed shell, and it was very prone to get trapped by the combination of U-Turn Pult + Dugtrio. Now it's gonna be more often on teams as the main ghost and ice resist.

4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?

Sun really liked Dugtrio's presence so it's getting even worse, but it's already losing a lot of usage anw.
With Dug getting banned, Terrakion will steal Conkeldurr's spotlight as a fighting type breaker.
Dug could be paired with a lot of mons so it's a bit hard to say what's gonna drop, some mons definitely will but I'm not sure which.

5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?
Offensive teams will abuse even more of Kyurem and Zeraora but will also run a lot of Terrakion. Bulky teams will probably often have a core of Clefable Toxapex and Corviknight.

6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned? Don't go overboard with this one.

I think Zeraora was already too problematic with Arena Trap and wasn't easy to trap with BU sets, and Kyurem appreciates not being trapped by Dug, but also won't appreciate the rise of Incineroar, Jirachi, Toxapex + Clef + Corviknight and Tyranitar, so I'm not sure how better it gets, but definitely already felt problematic with Arena Trap and still now.
The mon that gets really crazy because of Dug's ban is definitely Terrakion, as it is now free to run LO and Banded set, which have no switch-in combined, while also being fast. There are defensive combinations that can hold it back, like max def Pex + max def Corviknight, max def Hippo + a ghost or a good fighting resist, max def necrozma + solid rock resist, but it can still find its way through those. It does have some tough matchups, but usually if the opponent has a Mandibuzz it's sure to put in the work.

 

[B1001]

Dunno, Terrakion feels a little underwhelming imo. He seems great on paper but just seems to underperform in practice.

If you run Choice Band, then predicting becomes a nightmare when almost every team has a mix of things like Aegislash/Pex/Hippo/Clef/Corv. He doesn't have great mid-ground options and can be punished heavily for guessing wrong because every wall threatens him (Hippo can EQ, Pex can Scald, Clef can Moonblast, Corviknight can Iron Head/Body Press, Seismitoad, Ferrothorn, etc.)

That also becomes an issue with the Swords Dance set. Setting up becomes risky when damn near everything can kill or cripple you. He also gets easily revenged by common metagame threats like Zeraora, Dragapult, Conk, etc.

In contrast, Conk doesn't really have these issues (or at least not to this extent) since he has great midground options (Facade and Knock Off) and can actually take hits from walls and heal himself back with Drain Punch. Mach Punch is also fantastic late game and can be a lifesaver. He definitely seems like the more threatening fighting type of the two.

In terms of problems, I think Kyurem is the bigger one when his two main switchins (Sp.Def Clef and Corv) are susceptible to getting frozen as they can't do anything but heal after switching in to take an ice beam. And I don't know if it's just me, but this bastard freezes a shit ton - and those freezes cost games.

 

[rubberducky402]

toxapex / clef / corv cores are stupid hard to deal with, and if you are using your own core you can expect a super drawn out battle that is not enjoyable at all. wish protect teleport clefable is being spammed to oblivion and it invalidates a lot of creative teams because you can wear down a check, only for clefable to just reliably wish pass the whole game and heal up mons without reliable recovery such as ferrothorn and even zeraora. a lot of these bullshit ass "balance" teams are technically semi-stall teams with a breaker such as dracovish or zeraora, they are especially consistent at there job when placed on these teams because any chip you get on them is invalidated through wishpass.

if it's not some bullshit like that, then it's going to be some hyper offense meant to counter these teams which still can't even beat these teams reliably all the time. and also for the record, I do not want the post to look like i'm whining about how fat the metagame is. I see these wish pass teams similar to ABR weavile stall back in previous generations, except this time these semi-stall teams rarely have to forfeit momentum due to u-turn corvinight, teleport clefable, and the sheer threat of just losing a game if clefable passes a wish to something.

honestly i think clefable is at the peak of the meta, and i think it has an extremely unhealthy presence. it's even come to a point where I even miss the dugtrio meta. i would highly consider looking at clefable for a suspect test

 

[Tapeworm]

1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?

There's not much more to add to this beyond what others have said but it's worth re-emphasising Exca and potentially T-Tar here. Sand Rush Exca is a monster that's able to dismantle a tonne of teams of all archetypes but in a Duggy meta it was handicapped by the trapper and when it was run it was limited somewhat to more balance based teams centred around Hippo. While I still think that'll unquestionably remain the most common and effective way of abusing Rush Exca and a style that'll increase in usage in its own right, T-Tar's slightly more freed presence allows for a more offensive direction without the risk of being invalidated by trappers. Gravity Sand offense in particular could be interesting without Duggy's pressure opening up more opportunities to set up with less risk. It certainly won't be the face of the new meta, but I'm keen to see how far it'll go.

2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?

I do like my boy, Terrakion, but Duggy was not its worst enemy but rather just one of many issues it faced. As mentioned before, Choiced sets are very prediction reliant and easy to abuse given the number of threatening Ghost and non-grounded mons out there now; while Duggy's ease of revenging is no longer an issue, those prior issues are still a problem for it. The set that easily benefited most was the SD set, now being able to run Life Orb freely at +2 it can now OHKO Corv, OHKO Seismitoad, OHKO Pex after Rocks, and has a >50% chance to OHKO max Def Clef, none of these were possibilities before while forced to run Shed Shell. The issue it still faces is that its defensive typing is absolute ass in the current meta with so many super-effective attacks it struggles against flying around so setup opportunities are still limited if it's on any team besides a Screens team, in which case it can be a valuable new toy for that style of offense but that's not a big enough niche for it to really make a significant presence for itself, particularly with how many other perfectly good Screens abusers we have already.

6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned?

I do not think Zeraora is as crazy as people say it is, but it is still a substantial threat right now to a whole host of teams and playstyles. Its speed, coverage, and versatility make it a very easily splashable mon that can pressure any style of play whether that be offensive or defensive, most teams have to add this to their threatlist, some less than others depending on the spread they're up against but the counterplay is limited and generally predictable. Is it worthy of a suspect? I don't think so. Leaving aside the soon-to-arrive DLC which I believe will offer more options to play with against this thing, it's not nearly the kind of threat that previous bans this gen have been so far, it does suffer slightly from 4mss, it's not all that strong unboosted and Life Orb suffers from longevity issues and Bulk Up is straight trash. It is problematic for sure and if it is suspected down the line I'd understand it even if I don't entirely agree with it, it is the most overbearing threat we have right now.

 

[Finchinator]

Melmetal retest

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-3-iron-man.3662190/

 

[ausma]

He's here.
The big boy.



I'm not gonna lie, now that the meta's starting to settle again, I'm really hyped to see him back (at least for a bit). It's hard to describe, but I personally feel like Melmetal will do what Duggie did but actually in a healthy sense: checking things like Kyurem, Terrakion, and Zeraora, while not completely eliminating a fundamental aspect of the game through trapping.

I feel like Melmetal being here will keep a good cap on the big offensive threats while not being utterly busted, since Melmetal has some giant weaknesses in the current metagame that come through many special breakers that are running around right now (especially after the Duggie ban). Additionally, it is really Knock Off prone, as I believe it needs its item to effectively do its job in soaking hits, and Knock Off now being much more prevalent is a point against the big boy. Hell, Ferrothorn, arguably one of its best defensive checks on sets without Superpower, runs Knock Off pretty frequently now.

So, what are some things against the big boy that are rising that weren't as good before? I believe things like Incineroar--a really strong check due to its typing, ability, and access to Parting Shot-- and Toxtricity--a phenomenal special breaker--will likely rise in response to Melmetal's new presence in the tier, especially now that Duggie isn't around to squash their full potential. Similarly, rising star Hippowdon is an absolute defensive beast and is a pretty effective check as well against AV sets, and Toxapex is pretty solid as well against sets without Thunder Punch. This being said, it can't really run all the coverage it'd like to, especially in our new Duggie-less meta, so it's going to get walled in some way, shape, or form by the new diversity we have.

There is one thing I'd like to address, though, and it's the idea that Melmetal's presence in the tier is advocating the broken checking broken mentality. I would like to express that I personally don't believe Melmetal is at all advocating this, because prior to Duggie's ban, Zeraora and Kyurem were considered relatively manageable. By their base, the aforementioned big offensive threats aren't broken, but can be strong to a point where teambuilding is somewhat difficult, and hence arguably overcentralizing. Because of this, I think Melmetal is a fantastic addition at the moment, since it helps create a more effective check to these big offensive beasts to not push them over an edge that isn't natural for them while not being broken in of itself.

Overall, I'm super excited about Melmetal's return, and I can't wait to see how the metagame changes over the next couple of weeks with all of this in mind.

 

[levitategengar]

I'm frankly disappointed by the decision to retest. I don't want to repeat what I've already said in previous pages, but this current meta has so much broken/unhealthy shit in it that severely constricts team building and needs to be addressed (e.g. Kyu, Vish, Zera, King's Rock). Wasting time re-testing something that is ostensibly unhealthy at the least is the last thing we need - if the plan is to not suspect anything prior to DLC, I'd just like that to be made clear by the council so I don't waste my time trying to create a movement here :)

In the spirit of adding to discussion re: Melmetal. Calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 110-132 (36.1 - 43.4%) -- approx. 99% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 190-224 (47.5 - 56%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 316-374 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- approx. 83.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 274-324 (77.8 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 150-176 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- approx. 54.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 240-284 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 98-116 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- approx. 98.6% chance to 3HKO

Some takeaways:

• Choice band Double Iron Bash is probably the best set and will cut cleanly through the meta. The scary thing is that so many other sets are viable (assault vest, acid armor, etc). I just think CB spam will be stupid
• All versions of toxapex cannot switch in, as there is a 50% flinch chance on the 2nd hit. No need to try and predict with CB earthquake.
• Best options are Corviknight (outspeeds) and Ferrothorn (takes down Melmetal martyrdom style with Iron Barbs). Both get wrecked if Melmetal predicts well. Offensive options that will rise are Rotom-H and Vish
• Pair this with CB Vish (who nicely checks Melmetal) to eliminate ferro/pex/toed and congrats, balance and stall are now eliminated as viable playstyles. We're just left with hyper offense. Make sure the rest of your team is just dedicated to Kyurem / Zera / Exca / Cloyster / Aegi / Vish (who will be rising in usage) like every other team out there

The only universe that I predict Melmetal not being broken in is a meta where it's so hyper offense oriented that being slow causes Melmetal to lose its effectiveness, sort of like why people aren't as woke about CB Vish being blatantly broken/unhealthy right now. AKA the meta I predict we are headed towards.

 

[McCoolDude]

Melm is a big dumb mon. It has always been a big dumb mon. It will probably always be a big dumb mon.

Most of the calcs I see are focused on Melmetal's offensive presence, which is pertinent! However it's also worth looking at its defensive ability, because there are numerous situations where melmetal can facetank damage and OHKO something just because it got to come in for free.

Hide

252 SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 303-357 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage (even a burned melm does 90% to pult)

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 426-502 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Melmetal OHKOS with DIB)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 322-381 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Melmetal obviously OHKOs with EQ)

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 393-463 (83.2 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Obviously melmetal OHKOs with DIB)

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 418-494 (88.5 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 248-294 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 428-506 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 381-448 (80.7 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 372-438 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is just to point out that, even if you have a strong attacker with coverage for melmetal, melmetal very probably has better odds to live the attack and remove whatever mon is in front of it.

 

[ScottyAdams]

I can see defensive versions of the rotom boys (Heat, Wash and even mow) with Will-o-wisp seeing more play due to them being the closest thing to a "counter" to Melmetal's DIB spam that we have, though even then - Melmetal will usually pack coverage and they're still dented by other moves on its set if they come in on them (Notably Rock Slide or Superpower)

 

[Negative Charge]

^ that's Clefable in the background

I would like our chunky metal boy to drop honestly even though I know it won't. I'm not really moved by random calcs showing Melmetal's user getting rewarded using coverage on the switch to bop a check, like idk good for you if you predict ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . My main question is when this remains banned will it ever be retested when DLC 1 / DLC 2 drop or is this it till Gen 9?

 

[volx757]

^ that's Clefable in the background

I would like our chunky metal boy to drop honestly even though I know it won't. I'm not really moved by random calcs showing Melmetal's user getting rewarded using coverage on the switch to bop a check, like idk good for you if you predict ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . My main question is when this remains banned will it ever be retested when DLC 1 / DLC 2 drop or is this it till Gen 9?

I'd agree that calcs showing a check getting bopped by coverage are not very valuable data, but if you look over the list of calcs that they posted, almost none of them are coverage moves, and almost all of them are Melmetal clicking it's STAB and 2/3HKOing bulky resists.

Sure you can click Superpower and go for a 2HKO on a predicted Ferrothorn. Or you can just click double iron bash every turn because even max physdef ferro gets throttled by it. Brainless mon, I don't think it's gonna work out for Melmetal in OU.

 

[CaptenCollin]

Someone mentioned a suspect test of Clefable and I honestly don’t think it’s a crazy idea. I’m wondering how the new Meta will look and it seems like just Melmetal and Clef will be all over low ladder spam.

 

[Pokedom10]

My very first thought was that Melmetal was probably fine, because Hippowdon is on the rise and is a pretty great defensive piece. It even has an Earthquake to threaten back with. But because I'm cautious, I had to check.

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Uh oh. That's probably one of the most physically defensive sets you can find on the market... and it's still not enough to switch in with reliably.

 

[McCoolDude]

My very first thought was that Melmetal was probably fine, because Hippowdon is on the rise and is a pretty great defensive piece. It even has an Earthquake to threaten back with. But because I'm cautious, I had to check.

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Uh oh. That's probably one of the most physically defensive sets you can find on the market... and it's still not enough to switch in with reliably.

You forgot:

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 174-206 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So not so much "threaten" as "mildy discourage"

 

[Talpr0ne]

I can't help but wondering if this isn't happening too soon. In principle, I am all for allowing the community to have a say in bans, even including a review process for certain non obvious quickbans like this one. However, Melmetal is an undeniably strong Pokémon and hardly anything changed around it to justify an unban on the grounds that it is weaker, so essentially this suspect is just asking to the community if they agreed or not with the council when they banned it. I am not opposed to it, but if Melmetal stays banned I hope that another retest is considered after Crown Tundra, when we'll get Pokémon that can handle it more comfortably than most of the ones currently available (I.e.Heatran and Landorus-T).

 

[JTD783]

I'm gonna go through each of these mons, or at least most of them, and say what I've seen in recent meta developments.

S Rank

Clefable: Best mon in the meta. Teleport (especially with Wish) is busted. They're almost always spedef, haven't seen LO in a long time. LO needs to run CM to beat other clefs if they're fat. It's unbelievably splashable, but also a pain in the ass to play against. I love it and I despise it. Knock Off and Thunder Wave are also really nice atm.

Corviknight: The premiere Excadrill answer. Mostly been seeing bulky defog with Body Press to beat Bish and Drill. Bulk Up is still fairly solid but it's prone to being statused. Hasn't changed much.

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Aegislash: A bitch to play around. Nothing like going into a defensive Pex on a presumed CB only to get smashed by Specs Shadow Ball. Specs and Band are amazing, but SD isn't that great these days. SubToxic isn't that good but it's definitely annoying.

Dragapult: Wisp Hex Draco U-Turn is the best set rn. It hates the rise of spedef Clef and Zeraora is annoying but it's still solid. Specs is underwhelming, DD sets are a cool meme I guess. Scarf Dragapult is bad.

Excadrill: Busted on paper. Busted in practice if any of Corv / Mandi / Hippo are removed, but fairly useless if they're healthy. Band is cool on gravity teams, especially since it 2HKOs max physdef Hippo after like any chip at all. Lead sets exist I guess.

Hydreigon: NP is still decent honestly, just needs chip to secure the OHKO on spedef Clef with +2 LO Flash Cannon. Or just run modest and nuke it. Sub NP is too weak and scarf is bad. Still an absolute menace to every team, especially fat ones. Might work well in conjunction with Kyurem?

Kommo-o: dont care to write anything

Rotom-Heat: Annoying bastard. Pairs really well with Wish support from Clef. Just avoid Knock Off.

Toxapex: Fat piece of shit. Toxic Spikes are broken. Knock Off is a busted move.

Zeraora: Bulk Up seems like the best set rn, but mixed 4 attacks is also very good. The latter gets worn down pretty fast, unless of course it's paired with Wish Clef. Seeing a pattern here?

A Rank

Conkeldurr: Unwallable. A get out of jail free card against Terrak, Drill, Kyurem, etc. Nearly unstoppable with Wish support.

Ferrothorn: Very annoying, but can be kept down with Knock Off and Scald burns.

Kyurem: Specs is wild. Knock Off support makes it unwallable. A little hazard removal lets it come in for free and tear your opponent a new one, over and over. Sub Tect DD is a weird meme.

Mandibuzz: dont care to write anything

Seismitoad: This exists to beat Dracovish and get rocks up, and that's about it. Hasn't changed at all.

Terrakion: Can safely exist without Shed Shell after Arena Trap's ban. SD is best imo, Band is scary but too prediction-reliant. Scarf is meh.

A- Rank

Cloyster: Total bullshit. Autowins against a lot of teams and can skill through the rest with King's Rock. Love/hate relationship with this fucker.

Dracovish: Incredibly unhealthy effect on the tier. Will 6-0 any team lacking any one of Pex/Ferro/Toad and can still get past them through rain or repeated chip. Most brainless Unga Bunga mon in this tier, and that's saying something. Can't be trapped by Dug anymore, but Dug can't trap Pex anymore. Basically a draw. Same as always, otherwise.

Gengar: If you want a fast ghost breaker, ignore Dragapult and use this. NP is scary as hell. Slept on pretty hard.

Jirachi: Scarf is ok, but SubCM is really cool. Lots of teams have no good answer to it. Spedef with Wish is probably good since it dunks on Clef but I haven't seen it used recently. Also kind of a draw with Arena Trap's ban.

Sylveon: Who?

Togekiss: Sub NP is great. Mon has serious electric-type allergies but rips fat builds a new one. Scarf is meh. Appreciates TWave support.

In general, the best strat rn seems to be spamming status and Knock Off mindlessly so breakers can run through teams easily. Bulky Offense seems better than balance but both are solid. HO is mostly using webs and sometimes screens, and stall is very rare. Tier will probably improve as long as Melmetal doesn't come back.

 

[theotherguytm]

Tbh, my personal view on all of this is it has been a hot minute since an earthshaking ban that all but sent to Ubers a top 10, highly centralizing mon, and we should keep that in mind when discussing the metagame and what may or may not be broken. (This thread is only a week old.)

That said, how good WishPort Clef is, and its absurd SPL usage rate, is worrying. But my biggest issue with Clef really, is how good Life Orb Clef is, and how no-one is using it because they're using the defensive sets instead. This for me is a huge red flag, and I think a sign of why Clef is untouchable in the current metagame. It is simply needed to check way, way, way too much. From Hydreigon to Dragapult and Keldeo to Kyurem, this mon is basically a requirement to hold the mess of threats in the tier at bay. But why is this? We have mons like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, who both were more than capable of holding these special breakers at bay last gen. And when you think about it that way, the answer to the question "What is wrong with OU?" is way too obvious...

The thing known as LORD VISH has been normalised. Its absurd damage output has just been accepted. I think everyone here needs a quick reminder of the power of LORD VISH.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 158-186 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It has a chance to OHKO the most physically bulky Water resist known to man on the switch if it's uninvested (which it always is).
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex, the wall to end all walls, is strong-armed into running physically bulky sets to soft check the thing if and only if it is scarfed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Because Banded 2-shots it on the switch. With no prediction required. Just a reminder that this is max Phys Def of a mon known for stalling out breakers and resisting the move in question. Toxapex has been seen running Baneful Bunker exclusively for Vish!
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even Ferrothorn struggles to hold it back. A quick reminder: Ferrothorn has no reliable recovery.

Everyone knows these calcs. So they slap a Water immunity on their team and forget about it. But this normally comes in the form of Seismitoad, who is not the best mon ever. Toad may provide Rocks, but it has no reliable recovery and cannot keep them up to save its life. So it has to be paired with WishPort Clef and... You have one of the thousands of generic balances out there right now. And playing with Toad against a team without Toad or Vish... Is painful. Toad's weak points have a habit of being excruciatingly pointed out over the course of 100 turns, and it will burn through your Clef's Wishes before theirs. And as SPL has shown, mons like Mantine and Rotom-M have cropped up to expose the weaknesses of teams that rely on Seismitoad. So you can play Gastrodon, or defensive Mantine instead. But at that point, you're running mons that belong on Stall, mons that serve no purpose beyond defensively checking threats. With these Water Immunities being as mediocre as they are, the rest of your team is going to have to carry most of the weight against non-Vish teams.

So you are left in a horrible 50/50, where you can either run the Water Immunity that has to be carried by an inch-perfect balance team, or you can take the chance of not running into LORD VISH. And running Dracovish isn't that much better. 50% of the time it's the ultimate breaker that claims a kill every time it comes in, 50% of the time it's mostly dead weight. It's the ultimate in matchup fishing, but this time everyone is caught up in it. Every time you click to play a game with a Water Immunity on your team, you're praying to see Vish or another Water Immunity so you're not basically a mon down, every time you click to play without one, you're praying to avoid it. And Clef is the only thing holding this joke of a meta together by keeping Vish's checks, and everything else, healthy.

 

[Is Dracovish Banned Yet?]

Tbh, my personal view on all of this is it has been a hot minute since an earthshaking ban that all but sent to Ubers a top 10, highly centralizing mon, and we should keep that in mind when discussing the metagame and what may or may not be broken. (This thread is only a week old.)

That said, how good WishPort Clef is, and its absurd SPL usage rate, is worrying. But my biggest issue with Clef really, is how good Life Orb Clef is, and how no-one is using it because they're using the defensive sets instead. This for me is a huge red flag, and I think a sign of why Clef is untouchable in the current metagame. It is simply needed to check way, way, way too much. From Hydreigon to Dragapult and Keldeo to Kyurem, this mon is basically a requirement to hold the mess of threats in the tier at bay. But why is this? We have mons like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, who both were more than capable of holding these special breakers at bay last gen. And when you think about it that way, the answer to the question "What is wrong with OU?" is way too obvious...

The thing known as LORD VISH has been normalised. Its absurd damage output has just been accepted. I think everyone here needs a quick reminder of the power of LORD VISH.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 158-186 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It has a chance to OHKO the most physically bulky Water resist known to man on the switch if it's uninvested (which it always is).
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex, the wall to end all walls, is strong-armed into running physically bulky sets to soft check the thing if and only if it is scarfed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Because Banded 2-shots it on the switch. With no prediction required. Just a reminder that this is max Phys Def of a mon known for stalling out breakers and resisting the move in question. Toxapex has been seen running Baneful Bunker exclusively for Vish!
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even Ferrothorn struggles to hold it back. A quick reminder: Ferrothorn has no reliable recovery.

Everyone knows these calcs. So they slap a Water immunity on their team and forget about it. But this normally comes in the form of Seismitoad, who is not the best mon ever. Toad may provide Rocks, but it has no reliable recovery and cannot keep them up to save its life. So it has to be paired with WishPort Clef and... You have one of the thousands of generic balances out there right now. And playing with Toad against a team without Toad or Vish... Is painful. Toad's weak points have a habit of being excruciatingly pointed out over the course of 100 turns, and it will burn through your Clef's Wishes before theirs. And as SPL has shown, mons like Mantine and Rotom-M have cropped up to expose the weaknesses of teams that rely on Seismitoad. So you can play Gastrodon, or defensive Mantine instead. But at that point, you're running mons that belong on Stall, mons that serve no purpose beyond defensively checking threats. With these Water Immunities being as mediocre as they are, the rest of your team is going to have to carry most of the weight against non-Vish teams.

So you are left in a horrible 50/50, where you can either run the Water Immunity that has to be carried by an inch-perfect balance team, or you can take the chance of not running into LORD VISH. And running Dracovish isn't that much better. 50% of the time it's the ultimate breaker that claims a kill every time it comes in, 50% of the time it's mostly dead weight. It's the ultimate in matchup fishing, but this time everyone is caught up in it. Every time you click to play a game with a Water Immunity on your team, you're praying to see Vish or another Water Immunity so you're not basically a mon down, every time you click to play without one, you're praying to avoid it. And Clef is the only thing holding this joke of a meta together by keeping Vish's checks, and everything else, healthy.

I created an account just to support this. After playing this meta in depth due to being quarantined and having more free time, my conclusion is that Dracovish is the most toxic OU legal pokemon I've ever seen, rivaling Politoed in Gen 5. I'm shocked that it's not being suspected and Melmetal is being re-tested instead.

A lot of people are complaining about the lack of diversity in the meta in the Melmetal suspect thread. There are a lot of reasons for this, but Dracovish is the biggest one. Ban this thing please and let me know so I can retire this account.

 

[Pokedom10]

Everyone knows these calcs. So they slap a Water immunity on their team and forget about it. But this normally comes in the form of Seismitoad, who is not the best mon ever. Toad may provide Rocks, but it has no reliable recovery and cannot keep them up to save its life. So it has to be paired with WishPort Clef and... You have one of the thousands of generic balances out there right now. And playing with Toad against a team without Toad or Vish... Is painful. Toad's weak points have a habit of being excruciatingly pointed out over the course of 100 turns, and it will burn through your Clef's Wishes before theirs. And as SPL has shown, mons like Mantine and Rotom-M have cropped up to expose the weaknesses of teams that rely on Seismitoad. So you can play Gastrodon, or defensive Mantine instead. But at that point, you're running mons that belong on Stall, mons that serve no purpose beyond defensively checking threats. With these Water Immunities being as mediocre as they are, the rest of your team is going to have to carry most of the weight against non-Vish teams.

So you are left in a horrible 50/50, where you can either run the Water Immunity that has to be carried by an inch-perfect balance team, or you can take the chance of not running into LORD VISH. And running Dracovish isn't that much better. 50% of the time it's the ultimate breaker that claims a kill every time it comes in, 50% of the time it's mostly dead weight. It's the ultimate in matchup fishing, but this time everyone is caught up in it. Every time you click to play a game with a Water Immunity on your team, you're praying to see Vish or another Water Immunity so you're not basically a mon down, every time you click to play without one, you're praying to avoid it. And Clef is the only thing holding this joke of a meta together by keeping Vish's checks, and everything else, healthy.

ROLE. COMPRESSION. It's a problem in a limited format. You need 1 Pokemon to fill 4 different roles. Toad has status, rocks, useful immunities, and a statspread that screams honest. Nothing outside of HP above 100. But you need it. You need it because that Rotom Heat is gonna Volt Switch any minute now. You need it because they've got a Pokemon that hates switching into Scald. You need it because those rocks aren't going to lay themselves. So you build it. Not because you can, as if it's some neat tech that stops certain cores like Alolem was for a while. But because you have to.

 

[Empress Mobile]

ROLE. COMPRESSION. It's a problem in a limited format. You need 1 Pokemon to fill 4 different roles. Toad has status, rocks, useful immunities, and a statspread that screams honest. Nothing outside of HP above 100. But you need it. You need it because that Rotom Heat is gonna Volt Switch any minute now. You need it because they've got a Pokemon that hates switching into Scald. You need it because those rocks aren't going to lay themselves. So you build it. Not because you can, as if it's some neat tech that stops certain cores like Alolem was for a while. But because you have to.

Yeah, and therein lies the problem. I've seen lots of comments from great players about how Dracovish isn't broken, and that's absolutely correct given the way the metagame has warped around it to accommodate its existence. But never before has a team truly needed a water resist such that it would run such an easily abusable Pokemon as Seismitoad to frequency we see now. Even Gen 5's specs boosted, rain boosted Hydro Pump from Keldeo could be reasonably dealt with by bulky resists like the Lati twins or Slowking. Now even things like Toxapex and Ferrothorn can fall to the banded set, without prediction. The role compression afforded by Seismitoad is only nearly as valuable as it is due to the specific metagame restraints introduced by Dracovish.

 

[Lennart]

Yeah, and therein lies the problem. I've seen lots of comments from great players about how Dracovish isn't broken, and that's absolutely correct given the way the metagame has warped around it to accommodate its existence. But never before has a team truly needed a water resist such that it would run such an easily abusable Pokemon as Seismitoad to frequency we see now. Even Gen 5's specs boosted, rain boosted Hydro Pump from Keldeo could be reasonably dealt with by bulky resists like the Lati twins or Slowking. Now even things like Toxapex and Ferrothorn can fall to the banded set, without prediction. The role compression afforded by Seismitoad is only nearly as valuable as it is due to the specific metagame restraints introduced by Dracovish.

To add to this, it is really difficult for offense to deal with scarf dracovish, as either most offensive Pokemon fail to survive even one hit or fail to do enough to it and still fall or nearly fall to fishious rend without the boosting side effect. Often it is the best bet to either throw away 2-3 Mons to finish it (Priority/Faster Pokemon) or try to force it into outrage with dragon types (although, as most are 2hkoed by fishious this is easier said than done). Many of its checks arent in the best of states in the current meta and or very unsatisfying answers. These answers commonly have a few drawbacks (although most Pokemon have these, I want to underline the gravity of their drawbacks) like 90 % of them are huge momentum drainers against the common teams. But this isnt a one sided problem, with the facilitated wish passing via clefable, not only completely shutting down most of these but also providing wish for chipped pokemon, especially walls, enhancing the importance of momentum (but despite that clef tends to get it chance inevitably and this commonly results in long, exhaustive games). And some of these perceived answers to dracovish have to run either moves they often would rather not, like baneful bunker to avoid the 2 hko from banded dracovish + chipping it, or a totally reliant on wish due to a lack of recovery, alongside the fact that dracovish can almost 2hko them or opt to obliterate thembest anyway, if played with rain

 

[CaptenCollin]

I usually don’t frequent forums, what criteria leads to moms being suspect tested? How does that decision come about?

 

[Gravelmouse]

I usually don’t frequent forums, what criteria leads to moms being suspect tested? How does that decision come about?

In this specific case, Melmetal is being suspected because it only had 1 day in the meta on release before being quickbanned, and it was stated when it was quickbanned that in the near future, it would be retested back into the OU tier. So it was never a question of IF melmetal would be tested.

 

[Is Dracovish Banned Yet?]

I usually don’t frequent forums, what criteria leads to moms being suspect tested? How does that decision come about?

The "OU Council" has the decision power. The best we can do is let our opinion be heard. For example, Dracovish is broken.