Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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Paradoxically, I might consider Arcanine a suboptimal choice for a sun team due to the generally superior choices for sweepers in Venusaur, Cinderace and Darmanitan. It does have Wild Charge for Pelipper, but that hardly helps with its issue of being easily revenge killed. If anything, I'd run Arcanine as a defensive patch for teams lacking a good Clefable / Sylveon / Hatterene switch in. Even on that front it's quite lacking.
well, it does have Espeed in regards to being easily revenged, which is rare this gen. Otherwise I´d agree that the other options are mostly superior
 
the meta is getting more one-dimensional every day

clef usage is skyrocketing now because people are realizing that you are always in the back if you aren't using your own wish clefable because if they heal up their team you are always in the back cuz your game plan will never succeed if they mindlessly heal their shit. honestly clef is just getting overcentralizing to the point where it's just annoying. extremely dragged out games + no need to think your plays if you have such an ez heal my pokemon button.

dracovish is also a disgusting mon that pretty much mandates baneful pex or seismitoad on every team. ferrothorn just gets destroyed by banded rend and they can just heal up damage after wish clef. even baneful pex is kinda iffy because like i said you get 2hko'd after stealth rock if ur item is knocked off (not hard to do when knock off is like on everything now lol). they just claim one after u switch out then they wish pass to vish and rinse repeat. easier to do in practice in these games because wish clef gets more oppurtunities against these balance/semi-stalls. honestly dracovish is one of those mons that i consider broken depending on the matchup. it's come to the point where stalls are running water absorb quagsire.

scarf vish in rain is deadass ez wins against unprepared teams. literally 6-0s off lead lol.

i think the main problem right now is that pokemon like clef, pult, vish, zera are necessary to have solid counters/checks too so it leaves a lot of room for teams to get fucked up by bad matchups. it's honestly a matchup based game at this point which is why the most successful teams are just running clef/corv/seis or pex cores with a breaker (kyu vish mel or driller) and two other random support mons

i hope dlc can bring more variation to this meta

on a serious note, i think vish should be looked at eventually. sure, it's basically useless in some games but in others its like why was i even born to see my ass get whooped like this lmao
 
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As a follow-up to my previous post about LORD VISH, I want to highlight something. I will go through the entire VR S to B- and categorise each mon as Defensive, Offensive or Either. (You'll see the point when I'm done)
SS OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank

Clefable Clef is obviously the best mon in the tier rn. WishPort is near-mandatory for decent Balance/Semi-Stall and holds the tier together by a thread. Life Orb is also a great pick, especially for BO.


Corviknight Corv is the tier's #1 hazard remover and all-around blanket check. Its great longevity, together with the ability to become a wincon on certain sets, makes it a top choice on most Balanced playstyles.

A Rank:

A+ Rank


Aegislash Top offensive threat, very unpredictable, set-dependent switch-ins.

Dragapult Another top offensive threat, capable of serving as speed control without needing a Scarf. Dragon Dance sets are popular HO picks.

Excadrill Offensive threat/hazard control compression. Sand Rush sets give Sand Balance a reason to exist.

Hydreigon Offensive powerhouse, no true switch-ins.

Kommo-o Uncommon Stealth Rocker due to the prevalence of Toad. Capable of becoming a wincon with Iron Defence. Belly Drum sets also have a place on HO.

Rotom-Heat Fairy check and Ground immunity that also functions as pivot and breaker. Can run Defog if required.

Toxapex The ultimate defensive wall. Often suffers from being overloaded and 4MSS due to the vast number of threats it is tasked with checking, including Dracovish.

Zeraora Offers similar speed control to Dragapult and has the capability to set up with Bulk Up. At home on a wide variety of playstyles, but missing some punch from its hits or longevity if it runs Life Orb.

A Rank

Conkeldurr Incredible Guts breaker, no switchins. Mach Punch provides priority.

Ferrothorn Top defensive wall, capable of running a wide variety of utility, including hazards. Lacks reliable recovery however.

Kyurem Specs breaker, limited switch-ins. Often ends up freezing checks over a long game. Dragon Dance sets exist but are limited in popularity.

Mandibuzz Defogger/Wall. Used as a blanket Ghost check and is the most dependable Aegi switch-in. Hates Toxic however.

Seismitoad Wall/Rocker. The most splashable Rocker due to its ability to check Dracovish. Often used as a blanket check to Electric moves, but is easy to wear down. Swift Swim sets see limited use.

Terrakion Powerful breaker, limited switch-ins. Can run Scarf for Speed control.

A- Rank

Cloyster HO sweeper, cheeses checks with King's Rock.

Dracovish Most deadly breaker in the tier or dead weight, very hit/miss. Unstoppable without a Water Immunity under Rain.

Gengar Offensive threat, fastest viable Scarfer in the tier. Can also set up with Nasty Plot.

Jirachi Rocker/Utility/Offensive Scarfer. Can hax its way to glory.

Sylveon (no longer deserving of current rank due to Clef's dominance, so will not be counting it)

Togekiss Offensive threat, capable of breaking down slower teams with Nasty Plot and flinches. Scarf and utility sets rare at best.
I'll stop here and count what we have so far.
Offensive 12
Defensive 4
Either 5
Already this tells a pretty stark story. The A and S ranks have less defensive mons than offensive mons even when discounting the offensive sets of the mons that can do both. And the picture only gets more stark as you go down the VR...
B Rank:

B+ Rank


Bisharp Great offensive breaker and HO staple.

Hatterene Magic Bounce user with high Spa. Utility sets exist, but are normally rejected in favour of Calm Mind, AoA and sometimes OTR sets.

Hippowdon Defensive wall and Sand staple. Should be higher IMO.

Keldeo Special Breaker. Can stallbreak, but that capability is not required in the current meta.

Mamoswine Offensive breaker. Can set Rocks but rarely does in practice.

Obstagoon Offensive Guts breaker with excellent speed tier. Held back by lack of ultimate power and competition with Conk.

Rotom-Wash Utility mon. Mostly outclassed by Rotom-H.

Tyranitar Offensive Stealth Rocker/breaker. Mostly outclassed but brings Sand and some defensive utility.

B Rank

Cinderace HO staple thanks to Court Change and U-turn, together with a blistering Attack and Speed.

Crawdaunt Powerful breaker with priority. Frail and reliant on STABs however.

Ditto Blanket revenge killer/cover-all defensive threat. Can stallbreak through PP stall, but again that is rarely required.

Gastrodon Alternative Water Absorber with recovery. Very passive however.

Grimmsnarl Screen setter. Can be a sweeper with Bulk Up, but weak.

Hawlucha Sweeper/cleaner. Reliant on slow, one-time setup.

Mantine (No longer deserving of current rank due to Metronome nerf.)

Necrozma Sweeper with many different setup moves. Utility sets are not used. Weak unboosted and often walled.

Primarina Specs breaker or Perish trapper. Weaker than common threats.

Reuniclus Wincon that makes itself invincible with Acid Armour and Calm Mind. Hard to fit on teams.

Rotom-Mow Breaker that attempts to exploit common structures. Currently failing.

Snorlax Blanket special wall that becomes a wincon with Curse. Slow and lacking recovery.

B- Rank

Dracozolt Inferior Dracovish that uses Sub to compensate for its miss rate and common immunities.

Gyarados Dragon Dance Sweeper. Situational pick.

Sigilyph Magic Guard breaker. Limited in use.

Torkoal Sun setter.

Venusaur Sun sweeper.

Xatu Magic Bounce user with access to Teleport. Very passive and fairly frail too.
Offensive 15
Defensive 3
Either 7
(And I was very generous with some of those purples lol)
Total B- or higher viable mons:
Offensive 27
Defensive 7
Either 12
There is simply way, way, way too many offensive mons, and way, way too few defensive mons to check them in the tier. The defensive mons we have are very good, but they can simply be overloaded or blindsided by a threat you didn't see coming in the builder. Even more stark right now is how elite the current metagame is. Everything in the A and S ranks is a world away from everything in the B ranks (bar Hippo and maybe Bisharp). Teambuilding ATM just seems to boil down to picking the one niche mon to build around and throwing on staples or just forgetting the niche mon entirely and building a team of S and A ranks because all the half-decent defensive threats are there, and the offensive threats that are there usually outclass everything else by a lightyear. This metagame is so heavily centralised it's scary.
Edit:
In SPL, the tier which had the fewest mons reach 10% use was RBY (ofc). But did you know SS OU was 2nd on that list?
# of Mons that reached 10% usage by tier:
SS OU: 14 (One of which was Dugtrio)
DOU: 15
LC: 18
SM: 24
ORAS: 21
BW: 18
DPP: 23
ADV: 19
GSC: 16
RBY: 11
I'm sure some of that can be out down to people experimenting with 1-off mons. But on the other hand, 12 out of those 14 breached 20% use, and one of the others was Zeraora, who literally did not exist for half the tour. The post-HOME stats make slightly easier reading with, 18 mons breaching 10%. On the other hand, Clef's absurd 83% usage rate post-HOME is worrying, but can be out down to the buffs HOME gave it. But then how to explain Corv's 63% post-HOME usage rate?
Just wanted to point out that counting how many viable defensive Pokemon vs offensive Pokemon there are in the viability rankings doesn't really mean anything. You'll find this in most old gen OUs as well, because the requirements to be a good defensive Pokemon are really stringent and as such there are only ever a handful of standout options, but those mons always hit pretty high usage. In fact I'd argue that this will always be the case - there will probably always be a signficantly larger number of viable offensive Pokemon than defensive Pokemon, and it comes down to how hard it is for defensive Pokemon to carve a niche over one-another.

Defensive mons ideally want to be self-sufficient for recovery, have a good enough stat-spread, metagame-appropriate defensive typing, not be hazard weak, have access to support options like SR/Defog/Haze/WW, and to not be set-up fodder for scary metagame threats. Its super super difficult to be a defensive Pokemon and not many can do it effectively. What you end up with is a really short list of mons that massively outclass the alternatives. Something like Clefable invalidates almost every other defensive fairy in the game, and almost all other Wish-passers bar very niche mons that can compress roles for you (i.e. Water Absorb Vaporeon). You see this in various old gens with stuff like Chansey, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory which are so head-and-shoulders above anything else comparable to it that they have a near monopoly over their roles. If you were to take your approach and try to work out how many specially defensive walls there were in old gens, you'd come to the conclusion that special walls are bad, when in reality its just that Chansey's near perfect combination of typing, movepool, and stat-spread that kicks every other comparable Pokemon off the viability ranking.

On the other hand, its way easier for a fringe offensive Pokemon to find a niche for itself and make its way onto the VR somewhere because its way harder to be directly outclassed by something above it. There's no set of definitive characteristics for what makes an offensive Pokemon good - they can be glass cannons, they can be slow but bulky powerhouses, they can be choiced attackers or set-up sweepers. There's no essential movepool requirements either, imagine a situation where you have 3 offensive Pokemon with similar typing, stat spreads and coverage but one gets CM, one gets NP, one gets U-turn - if one is top tier, then the other two are probably at least viable if not top-tier themselves. Look at something like Dragapult - although its obviously top tier, it doesn't invalidate the similar options below it because its way easier for offensive Pokemon to find a niche. Gengar, Aegislash, Hydreigon, Kyurem and offensive Kommo-o all share role(s) and at least one typing with offensive Dragapult sets, but all carve a niche for themselves over Dragapult through differences in typing and movepool in a way that Clefable's competitors don't - Wish, Teleport, SR, TWave etc are so important that what you gain from the alternatives is rarely enough to make them worth consideration.

The other important difference with offensive Pokemon is that it is viable to pair Pokemon that on paper overlap in their roles as part of an offensive strategy. You can run Dragapult alongside Kyurem as part of a strategy to break through teams that can normally only handle one of them at a time. In BW OU, Salamence is near exclusively utilised alongside at least 2 other dragons + Magnezone whenever it is used, and therefore its viability is the result of its overlapping roles with top tier Pokemon like Garchomp, Dragonite, and Kyurem-B - this helps it rather than hinders it. In this way, offensive Pokemon that look similar on paper don't always compete against eachother for teamslots, but oftetimes complement eachother - this therefore makes offensive Pokemon that otherwise look outclassed actually pretty viable options. This isn't so much the case with defensive Pokemon, whereby stacking similar Pokemon quickly becomes redundant. It happens sometimes but not super common.

I'm sure there's ways to analyse if the metagame has too many threats to keep up with, but just counting the Pokemon based on role doesn't take into account how offensive and defensive Pokemon compete or complement eachother in the teambuilder.
 
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I'm sure there's ways to analyse if the metagame has too many threats to keep up with, but just counting the Pokemon based on role doesn't take into account how offensive and defensive Pokemon compete or complement eachother in the teambuilder.
Usage stats are better than just counting.

1825 stats - this gen march (this gen feb) | last gen
1. Clefable 51% (42%) | Landorus-T 51%
2. Corviknight 43% (36%) | Magearna 31%
3. Toxapex 31% (20%) | Ferro 22%
4. Zeraora 27% (14%) | Greninja 22%
5. Dragapult 26% (41%) | Tapu koko 18%

A couple takeaways:
  • IMO clefable hate has always been overblown, people just haven't accepted that it's the best right now just like Lando last gen. However, I think it might hit 60%+ in April...
  • The bigger problem is the stale balance cores that many people feel "forced" into. Take the top 3 for example, Corvi/Clef/Pex that many teams are using based on the March stats. Let's make a simplifying assumption that you start your team with all 3 (which you can see all over the ladder). You're still going to get blown apart by the #4 threat, Zeraora (27% usage), so you need to add a Zera check/counter (Hippo / Rotom-H common answers). But wait, your team gets beat by Vish (13% usage), so now you add Toed. That's 5/6 slots so your team doesn't get blown apart by common threats. Yes other creative methods exist but this meta is so much more restrictive than those of the past
  • We have a small sample size, but centralization is increasing fast. Clefable 42% --> 51%, Corvi 36% --> 43%, Pex 20% --> 31%. Keep in mind this meta is only a couple months old (post-home release) compared to the last gen stats which were pre-gen8. While the usage stats tell me there is a centralization problem, it doesn't look that terrible - but it will likely get MUCH worse going forward, and people are already starting to see that on the ladder. I can't wait to see April's data.
 

A

Tactical Floof Supporter!
is a Tiering Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
what's up gamers, been a hot minute. Been playing a good deal of SS OU as of recent (got melmetal reqs) and I noticed a few things that have some potential moving forward:


Choccy Milk (Rotom-Heat) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 92 Def / 176 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Protect
- Toxic
- Volt Switch

ProTox Heattom paired with very solid defog support or the likes of Hatterene is deceptively bulky with its actual source of sustain allowing it to tank through hits and keep itself in shape. Toxic also essentially cripples mons like Seismitoad, Kommo-o, and Hydreigon looking for free turns against it while Protect empowers toxic, scouts against choiced mons like Kyurem/Hydrei/Pult and gives you more recovery in the long run. I've had Heattom stomach a CB Superpower from melt, take 70 and let it sustain through at least above half thanks to the free turns protect provides. It also means you can freely swap into DIB without losing too much since you automatically force it out anyway. Specs Kyurem also isn't as bad to deal with when you know what it's locked into. Cinderace has also been slightly more manageable as a result. The speed EVs outpaces CB Adamant Dracovish which is important when pivoting out with Volt Switch so Fishous doesn't immediately murk your incoming Pokemon. I think with smart play with Defog or Hatte, Protox's benefits can highly offset the SR weakness. Do be careful of knock off though, but again Protect helps with that.


welcome gamer (Pyukumuku) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Taunt
- Rest / Recover
- Spite

Pyukumuku is a bit of a gimmick but on paper you can definitely get massive results with it. It traps a buttload of defensive pokemon which enables mons like Kyurem and Bulk Up Zeraora (and I'm sure many others) to totally go sicko mode on the opposition. Pyukumuku in a vacuum beats: Snorlax, Sylveon, Non U-turn/Non Taunt Corviknight (been seeing a lot of iron head body press roost defog), Hippowdon, Toxapex, Seismitoad, and the big one: Clefable with a bit of smart play.

Block bypasses Protect and Baleful Bunker so there's no real way of escaping it. You'd want to block when those defensive mons love to use the free turns you're "giving" them by using things like Wish, Stealth Rock, Toxic or Knock Off. Thanks to Teleport being negative priority, Taunt shuts it down and you can comfortably handle Clefable with your bulk investment. Spite also cuts off Moonblast very fast so you're going to win out in the long run. Taunt into Rest, Sleep, into Taunt/Spite is also very real depending on how you read it.

Seismitoad and Toxapex are pretty much guaranteed fodder once you press Block. The spread is pretty customizable but the defense EVs reach a jump point and the spdef allows you to stomach Hyper Voices and Moonblast from things you wanna trap a little easier. Getting Knock'd off isn't the end of the world vs Pex or Toad when it means they're out of the game. Rest is preferred over Recover so you actually beat those Toxic mons. If you want a little more guaranteed security against Sylveon and Clefable trapping however, Recover works just as fine.

It is a bit of a deadweight pokemon against more offensive playstyles, but that's not what it's for and that's why you have 5 other mons to deal with it. Also watch out for Hatterene, but luckily it's a bit on the rarer end. I would've preferred Block Pex but Pyuku's access to Taunt sold me on it.
 
Hi guys, today I want to discuss a very underrated mon in the metagame and it is Sylveon!!!, I know it has already been discussed in other versions, but I feel that it is underrated after home dropped, i will also discuss the other eeveelutions (I have seen that they are very good)
Let's see.....
sylveon.gif

HP 95 / Atk 65 / Def 65 / SpA 110 / SpD 130 / Spe 60
Ability: Cute Charm / Pixilate
Main Moves: Hyper Voice, Toxic, Mystical Fire, Wish, Heal Bell, Yawn, Shadow Ball, Psyshock, Protect and Calm Mind
Description: Sylveon may seem like a bad version of Clefable because the latter has better abilities, Soft-Boiled, TeleWish and Stealth Rock, so Sylveon Wish may seem to have no place, but while Clefable has trouble choosing his abilities, if he chooses Unaware, you have the problem that you have problems against Stealth Rock and if you choose Magic Guard, you have a worse match up vs Hydreigon, Sylveon has a better match up against Kyurem and Hydreigon naturally, because Hydreigon needs if or if Nasty plot to beat her. Now we have Specs Sylveon, this kitty with bows hits the whole metagame, breaks cores like Toxapex / Clefable / Corviknight easily and her only real counter for this set is Melmetal, but you can use cores like Rotom-H + Sylveon Specs and it solves Sylveon has a lot to love and I think he deserves more love than he has, he is a threatening power and a very good Wishpasser and thanks to Duggy's Ban, he no longer has to be pressured and even with Melmetal, is great, Yawn is good too, can pressure switch ins and even pressure Melmetal.

vaporeon.gif

HP 130 / Atk 65 / Def 60 / SpA 110 / SpD 95 / Spe 65
Abilities: Water Absorb / Hydration
Main Moves: Scald, Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, Haze, Toxic, Roar and Ice Beam
Description: Vaporeon is a great Dracovish Scarf counter, because it can withstand even Outrage, it can also be a good check from Melmetal and Aegislash Swords Dance and doing all this in one slot is quite valuable, although it competes with Seismitoad, Vaporeon has two really important niches , the first is that it can be a cleric wisher and the second is its best overall bulk, although it does not have ground typing, the support of Wish and Heal Bell is very important, I also want to mention that it has very good utility moves like Haze , Roar and Yawn, which definitely gives him a place in the current metagame, all of these moves are to stop setup sweepers, you can even bring Toxic if you have problems with other bulky waters other than Toxapex, Vaporeon definitely deserves more exploration in this metagame, because it has very interesting things to try.

umbreon.gif

HP 95 / Atk 65 / Def 110 / SpA 60 / SpD 130 / Spe 60
Abilities: Synchronize / Inner Focus
Main Moves: Foul Play, Toxic, Yawn, Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, Moonlight and Taunt
Description: Umbreon has Yawn to pressure many setup sweepers like Hydreigon and Rotom-H that Mandibuzzz does not stop and both are really common threats, also Umbreon has a better MU against Kyurem and Dragapult, because Mandibuzz is defeated by both (Kyurem with Ice Beam / Freeze-Dry and Dragapult with Thunderbolt), Umbreon is a mon with a respectable niche that I see well, he was also benefited by the Duggy Ban, because this was a mon very difficult to beat for our friend Umbreon Although the Melmetal Unban doesn't benefit him much, but at least he presses it with Yawn and this is useful, Umbreon and Mandibuzz are comparable mons, but they are different, although Umbreon probably has some competition with Hydreigon at times, I also mention that his ability is quite circumstantial, but good, because most threats think twice before using an attack like Toxic, making it a mon harder to wear down.

flareon.gif

HP 65 / Atk 130 / Def 60 / SpA 95 / SpD 110 / Spe 65
Abilities: Flash Fire / Guts
Main Moves: Flare Blitz, Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Curse, Mystical Fire, Roar and Yawn
Description: Flareon is undoubtedly the most benefited by the Duggy Ban and although it does not have many relevant things, it still has a niche, it is a great counter of Corviknight, Zeraora, Clefable, Jirachi Scarf, Melmetal (it can 1v1 because it can burn it) and Aegislash Specs Especially if you wear a Physical Defensive EV Spread to hold 3 Zeraora's 3 Plasma Fits and 3 Corviknight's Brave Bird, it is also very useful with Wish, Yawn, Heal Bell, Will-O-Wisp and Roar and can do all this in 1 single slot, I know you have competition with Arcanine, but I suppose your Cleric Wisher set should be enough to justify yourself in some teams, this is great, because most defensive pokemon have no direct recovery (Seismitoad, Ferrothorn, Rotom Mow, Hatterene, Rotom Wash and Sylveon Specs are examples), it also has Mystical Fire as a niche move to easily count Sub CM Jirachi and Sylveon Specs, Flareon is a mon that although not as viable, has an interesting niche in some teams, even Curse is good.

Notice: From here we will see eeveelutions with smaller niches, but they are not bad.

espeon.gif

HP 65 / Atk 65 / Def 60 / SpA 130 / SpD 95 / Spe 110
Abilities: Synchronize / Magic Bounce
Main Moves: Psyshock, Psychic, Grass Knot, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, Trick, Reflect, Light Screen, Yawn, Wish, Heal Bell, Protect, Toxic and Weather Ball
Description: Espeon is a mon with a limited niche, because it is difficult to justify about Hatterene and Grimmsnarl and there are better trick scarfers, but despite this, it still has a niche, about Hatterene it has Trick and a higher speed that does not depend on trick room, for which is freer to carry something like Specs and Grimmsnarl on the set screens, it still has Yawn and Magic Bounce, Yawn is used to press the setup sweepers and Magic Bounce revives the state movements and Espeon is fast, so it It depends on prankster so much, I mean, prankster is useful, but Magic Bounce still has a niche and on the other trick scarfers, because I will have to mention one by one. Over Jirachi he has basically better offensive stats, so he can hit harder and is also fast enough to overcome Venusaur in a modest sun if Espeon has Scarf and over Rotom Wash, because both are quite different, one is faster and offensive and the other more defensive and more useful, we have a mon that has a decent niche that is usable in few teams, but that's fine.

leafeon.gif

HP 65 / Atk 110 / Def 130 / SpA 60 / SpD 65 / Spe 95
Abilities: Leaf Guard / Chlorophyll
Main Moves: Solar Blade, Knock Off, Dig, Synthesis, X-Scissor, Protect and Swords Dance
Description: It only stands out in sun, but it can destroy if used well, if it is under sun and its threats have been eliminated, it can easily sweep especially if we pair it with mons such as Venusaur, Torkoal and Darmanitan, it may not benefit as much with the Duggy Ban and less with the Melmetal retest, so it is still difficult to use, but Leafeon is a good late game cleaner that has decent coverage, Knock Off is for removing items and this serves to remove things like Band Melmetal and make it destroy less Leafeon is a mon with a niche in the sun, but it is only viable there.

jolteon.gif

HP 65 / Atk 65 / Def 60 / SpA 110 / SpD 95 / Spe 130
Abilities: Volt Absorb / Quick Feet
Main Moves: Thunder, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Volt Switch, Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, Yawn, Roar and Weather Ball
Description: Jolteon still has a very small niche for very specific teams, because there are certainly better options like Zeraora, Rotom-H and Rotom-W, but it still has niches, Weather Ball is one of them, because it benefits you in all climates, in Sun it kills steels, in rain it can kill Rotom-H, Sand does not really benefit him and Hail gives him excellent Bolt Beam coverage, it really is the only niche he has on Zeraora, but he only fits in climate teams except in sand and not I see it a consistent option outside of these, I also mention that it does have some defensive utility with Wish and Yawn, so it can still do Wish + Volt Switch, but there really isn't much else it has.

glaceon.gif

HP 65 / Atk 60 / Def 110 / SpA 130 / SpD 95 / Spe 65
Abilities: Snow Cloak / Ice Body
Main Moves: Freeze-Dry, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Water Pulse, Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, Blizzard (only in Hail) Yawn, Substitute and Weather Ball
Description: Glaceon doesn't have a lot of niches over Kyurem, he only has three niches that are worth it, on one hand the pure ice type gives him a better match up against Sylveon and Clefable, Specs Glaceon with Blizzard can 2HKO to Clefable and under Hail and after rocks It can 2HKO Sylveon too, it also has a better match up against Hydreigon, because it can withstand a Draco Meteor and can weaken it from any of its ice attacks, the second niche is its defensive utility with Wish, Roar, Yawn and Heal Bell, this is Probably what gives niche to all eeveelutions, although Glaceon full defensive is unfeasible, you can put some of these attacks depending on what you need in some HDB set, Wish if you want to recover, Roar and Yawn to force switch ins and Heal Bell To recover from the problems of the state, you can even take protect to scout the Melmetal Band and the third niche is Ice Body, if it were not for this, Glaceon with Substitute would not be viable, Leftovers + Substitute + Protect + Toxic + Blizzard + Ice Body in Hail is a set that should be explored further, although it is not a solid niche, it is definitely a mon with a certain niche in the metagame.

In case you want to know the top of eeveelutions it would be like this:
1. Sylveon
2. Vaporeon
3. Umbreon
4. Flareon
5. Leafeon
6. Espeon
7. Glaceon
8. Jolteon

And well, these mons have benefited from the Duggy ban, now let's see that mons are going to go down
tyranitar.gif

HP 100 / Atk 134 / Def 110 / SpA 95 / SpD 100 / Spe 61
Abilities: Sand Stream / Unnerve
Main Moves: Stone Edge, Ice Beam, Snarl, Stealth Rock, Dragon Tail, Earthquake, Hydro Pump, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Dragon Dance, Foul Play, Crunch and Taunt
Description: Tyranitar has benefited from the Duggy Ban, but Melmetal's unban made its use drop, it is that now they are really preferred to things like Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, various unranked mons like the mentioned unranked eeveelutions, Flygon and Heliolisk are much easier to fit into a team than Tyranitar, if unranked mons are easier to fit than Tyranitar, it really does not have a place, on paper it looks like a fantastic mon with excellent stats and excellent ability, but does not count anything useful, to start it does not achieve do nothing against the cores Clefable or Sylveon + Seismitoad + Corviknight, Sand does not win, Sun does not win because Venusaur defeats him with Giga Drain, Rain does not win, it is terrible, there is no team that is not prepared against him, teams have a minimum of 3 -4 Tyranitar counters, I just see him going down to Under Used, don't make him suffer any more in OU pls, even Umbreon is better, because Wish + Yawn is good, but Tyranitar is unviable in the OU metagame actually.

There really isn't much else, maybe Mandibuzz goes down a little and Jirachi goes up, but now let's get down to business, Melmetal:
melmetal.gif

HP 135 / Atk 143 / Def 143 / SpA 80 / SpD 65 / Spe 34
Ability: Iron Fist
Main Moves: Double Iron Bash, Rock Slide, Superpower, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Acid Armor, Iron Defense and Body Press.
Description: Melmetal is great, basically very few things wall Melmetal, you depend on certain niche monsters and scouts with Protect, since its good coverage allows Melmetal to be difficult to wall, TPunch + DIB + Superpower + Earthquake is a difficult set to deal with Only sand cores and little else can weaken this mon. On the other hand, this mon has no direct recovery and is very slow and this in such an offensive metagame I honestly do not see something in its favor, its special defense is not so high, so it is 2HKO for things like Seismitoad Earth Power and 4HKO by Scald Vaporeon and can burn it, so Melmetal is an easy mon to wear that depends on a wisher like Clefable and Sylveon, however it is excellent and hits hard, also Body Press + Iron Defense / Acid Armor + DIB + Thunder Punch It is great, he is not beaten for many things either and although he needs more support, he is still fine.
Is broken?: It is debatable, but at the moment it is not broken, at first I thought it was broken because it was not walled by anything, but the metagame is getting a little used to it, using things like Vaporeon, Rotom-H, Seismitoad and Golisopod and with this post, maybe Flareon is more explored, who knows.

Bye guys :)
 

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what's up gamers, been a hot minute. Been playing a good deal of SS OU as of recent (got melmetal reqs) and I noticed a few things that have some potential moving forward:


Choccy Milk (Rotom-Heat) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 92 Def / 176 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Protect
- Toxic
- Volt Switch

ProTox Heattom paired with very solid defog support or the likes of Hatterene is deceptively bulky with its actual source of sustain allowing it to tank through hits and keep itself in shape. Toxic also essentially cripples mons like Seismitoad, Kommo-o, and Hydreigon looking for free turns against it while Protect empowers toxic, scouts against choiced mons like Kyurem/Hydrei/Pult and gives you more recovery in the long run. I've had Heattom stomach a CB Superpower from melt, take 70 and let it sustain through at least above half thanks to the free turns protect provides. It also means you can freely swap into DIB without losing too much since you automatically force it out anyway. Specs Kyurem also isn't as bad to deal with when you know what it's locked into. Cinderace has also been slightly more manageable as a result. The speed EVs outpaces CB Adamant Dracovish which is important when pivoting out with Volt Switch so Fishous doesn't immediately murk your incoming Pokemon. I think with smart play with Defog or Hatte, Protox's benefits can highly offset the SR weakness. Do be careful of knock off though, but again Protect helps with that.
Cool post, but re: the bolded part, Fishious Rend doubles in power if Dracovish moves first or if the recipient of Fishious Rend switches in on the turn it is used. So a fast Volt Switch or U-turn doesn't actually result in an 85 BP Fishious Rend, unfortunately.
 

Srn

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I want to talk about melmetal one more time before we can move on to the stale meta we know and don't really love.

I think most people understand & recognize that mel reinforced the dominance of wishport balance and hindered HO, reducing what variety was left of the meta. Many, myself included, probably wished to ban mel with that logic in mind. I don't think this line of reasoning is totally misguided, but I'd like to clarify that mel itself isn't the root of that problem. I think there's a few factors forcing us to choose wishport balance if we wanna win.

1) wishport balance has a big advantage over non wishport balance because ur breakers are kept healthy, so you'll probably break them better than they break u.

2) wishport balance is also keeping your checks to said breakers healthy, so you can probably outlast their breakers more than they outlast yours.

3) the breakers we have in this meta are really powerful and force passive checks. Pokemon like dracovish, kyurem, aegislash, zeraora, hydreigon etc don't have reliable answers outside of fairly passive pokemon like seismitoad, toxapex, clefable, etc. This is in stark contrast to gen7, where a breakers like kartana had plenty of offensive checks like mega lati@s, serp, torn-t, and various scarfers that could switch in on at least 2/4 moves safely.

It's really difficult to fit offensive checks to breakers into teams. The most reliable ones we have are pokemon like conk that can force back kyu/hydra/exca/bish to a good extent with mach punch, and is capable of dealing good damage itself. And when we throw melmetal into the mix, we end up with HO becoming worse and balance becoming better. If I did actually get reqs (i went 34-4 and tilted i swear vros) I think I'd stand by my ban vote, but I'd keep in mind that banning melmetal won't actually improve our stale meta, it only keeps it from getting worse. Melmetal itself is far from broken, and if we had addressed more pressing issues like dracovish/wishport clef/perhaps kyurem and introduced melmetal into a more varied meta, perhaps it wouldn't have had such an unhealthy effect on the meta.

So what do we suspect next? Where do we go from here?

I think the most cut and dry next step is to target dracovish. Many people think it's bad or overhyped, but its influence on teambuilding is very real. You're pretty much forced to run toad+wishport clef or phys def bunker pex (because max phys def pex alone isn't enough jfc) on any non-HO team. There are few to no real offensive pokemon switching into a fishious rend, and there's like 3-4 defensive ones that are comfortable switching in (ferro/toad/pex), and ferro/toad really want wish support. Vish is an incredibly restrictive presence in teambuilding and banning it would likely introduce more variety on that front.

The trickier thing to tackle when trying to improve our stale meta is addressing wish+teleport clefable, the lynchpin of the most dominant playstyle in the game rn. A complex ban of wish+teleport could work and minimizes collateral damage. Banning wish is silly. Banning teleport also seems silly in the current meta, because teleport itself is far from obnoxious on the mons that currently get it. Only when wish+teleport are together do we see very reliable wish passing. So initially, I was thinking a complex ban of wish+teleport might be the best way to go.

However, from what information we have on the DLC, we can guess that teleport is gonna have some insane distribution. The biggest offender is chansey, and to a lesser extent, pokemon like slowbro are gonna have access to teleport+regenerator, which sounds absolutely braindead. When I think of running into that 1600s player wielding chansey HO, I can kind of chuckle and smh because chansey sucks up too much momentum to be a good fit. But when you throw teleport into the mix, I can see chansey dominating the meta, fitting into every kind of team and giving up no momentum with teleport. It doesn't even matter that wish+teleport won't be legal on chansey, teleport will be all it needs to become the most difficult pokemon to handle in the tier.

With all of THAT in mind, I think that we should first handle vish, wait for DLC to come out, confirm our suspicions on the lameness of teleport, and then probably suspect teleport itself. After at least these 2 suspects we might have a cool meta on our hands. I do hope some threads in policy forums open up soon to address these issues.
 
I strongly disagree on pursuing a complex ban on Tele-Wish. Ban the mons. Gardevoir and Xatu can WishPort; I don't seem them warping the meta around themselves. People were tripping over themselves to say we can't ban Gorilla Tactics (even though it's likely to remain an exclusive ability like Water Bubble), I see no reason to give Clef (or Chansey when it drops) special carve out treatment to keep them in the tier.
 

lyd

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I strongly disagree on pursuing a complex ban on Tele-Wish. Ban the mons. Gardevoir and Xatu can WishPort I don't seem them warping the meta around themselves. People were tripping over themselves to say we can't ban Gorilla Tactics (even though it's likely to remain an exclusive ability like Water Bubble), I see no reason to give Clef (or Chansey when it drops) special carve out treatment to keep them in the tier.
telewish is illegal on chansey fwiw, but i agree with you, teleport isnt the issue, wish isn't the issue, and teleport + wish isn't the issue. but rather clef itself, wether it's banworthy or not that's up to debate, but to me clef is the element that should be looked at!
 
I strongly disagree on pursuing a complex ban on Tele-Wish. Ban the mons. Gardevoir and Xatu can do it and I don't seem them warping the meta around themselves. People were tripping over themselves to say we can't ban Gorilla Tactics (even though it's likely to remain an exclusive ability like Water Bubble), I see no reason to give Clef (or Chansey when it drops) special treatment.
To be fair, I think the Gorilla Tactics argument was because it's an exclusive Ability and likely to remain that way.
Compare it to, say, Drought in UU right now - Drought is on a multitude of Pokémon and demonstrably an issue no matter which Pokémon uses it. (For example, some have made the argument that if Ninetales is banned, even Vulpix may be able to fill its shoes; similarly, if the setters remain but the main abusers Venusaur and Darmanitan are banned, some have argued that sun would remain broken because of too many other factors working in its favor; and the ability to abuse sun too well has gotten Pokémon like Shiftry banned even from other, lower tiers in the past, in conjunction with Vulpix rather than its UU setters.) It's actually because of that that the UU council is trying to go through PR to get Drought itself suspected. The question is not so much "is Drought the only reason <insert Pokémon here> a problem?" but "if <insert Pokémon here> is banned, will Drought still be a problem anyway?" Gorilla Tactics is only on one Pokémon in the first place, so the same argument can't possibly be made.
Banning an Ability to "nerf" a specific Pokémon is exactly the kind of thing current tiering policy is meant to avoid - it's currently supposed to be a last resort if it's proven to be a common thread among problematic Pokémon, meaning the Ability not only makes a Pokémon a problem for the tier but is a problem for a tier.
That said, I also agree that Teleport + Wish is on multiple Pokémon and doesn't seem to be demonstrably broken on all of them, so I see where you're coming from there, and I think your assessment is in line with the current tiering policy! I don't think you're wrong - I was just clarifying this specific issue based on what I've read.
 
I strongly disagree on pursuing a complex ban on Tele-Wish. Ban the mons. Gardevoir and Xatu can WishPort; I don't seem them warping the meta around themselves. People were tripping over themselves to say we can't ban Gorilla Tactics (even though it's likely to remain an exclusive ability like Water Bubble), I see no reason to give Clef (or Chansey when it drops) special carve out treatment to keep them in the tier.
I strongly agree. I grow weary of reading the "collateral" damage argument. It has no basis in tiering policy especially in the last few gens. If we wanted to ban Teleport altogether I wouldn't necessarily hate that, but it clearly isn't broken on any of the other Pokemon that learn the move. Most of them are barely scraping for niche viability. Clearly Clefable is a huge issue to the tier, I wonder if maybe its low base stats are giving people pause on suspecting it individually. But I agree Clef is the element that should be looked at
 
I want to talk about melmetal one more time before we can move on to the stale meta we know and don't really love.

I think most people understand & recognize that mel reinforced the dominance of wishport balance and hindered HO, reducing what variety was left of the meta. Many, myself included, probably wished to ban mel with that logic in mind. I don't think this line of reasoning is totally misguided, but I'd like to clarify that mel itself isn't the root of that problem. I think there's a few factors forcing us to choose wishport balance if we wanna win.

1) wishport balance has a big advantage over non wishport balance because ur breakers are kept healthy, so you'll probably break them better than they break u.

2) wishport balance is also keeping your checks to said breakers healthy, so you can probably outlast their breakers more than they outlast yours.

3) the breakers we have in this meta are really powerful and force passive checks. Pokemon like dracovish, kyurem, aegislash, zeraora, hydreigon etc don't have reliable answers outside of fairly passive pokemon like seismitoad, toxapex, clefable, etc. This is in stark contrast to gen7, where a breakers like kartana had plenty of offensive checks like mega lati@s, serp, torn-t, and various scarfers that could switch in on at least 2/4 moves safely.

It's really difficult to fit offensive checks to breakers into teams. The most reliable ones we have are pokemon like conk that can force back kyu/hydra/exca/bish to a good extent with mach punch, and is capable of dealing good damage itself. And when we throw melmetal into the mix, we end up with HO becoming worse and balance becoming better. If I did actually get reqs (i went 34-4 and tilted i swear vros) I think I'd stand by my ban vote, but I'd keep in mind that banning melmetal won't actually improve our stale meta, it only keeps it from getting worse. Melmetal itself is far from broken, and if we had addressed more pressing issues like dracovish/wishport clef/perhaps kyurem and introduced melmetal into a more varied meta, perhaps it wouldn't have had such an unhealthy effect on the meta.

So what do we suspect next? Where do we go from here?

I think the most cut and dry next step is to target dracovish. Many people think it's bad or overhyped, but its influence on teambuilding is very real. You're pretty much forced to run toad+wishport clef or phys def bunker pex (because max phys def pex alone isn't enough jfc) on any non-HO team. There are few to no real offensive pokemon switching into a fishious rend, and there's like 3-4 defensive ones that are comfortable switching in (ferro/toad/pex), and ferro/toad really want wish support. Vish is an incredibly restrictive presence in teambuilding and banning it would likely introduce more variety on that front.

The trickier thing to tackle when trying to improve our stale meta is addressing wish+teleport clefable, the lynchpin of the most dominant playstyle in the game rn. A complex ban of wish+teleport could work and minimizes collateral damage. Banning wish is silly. Banning teleport also seems silly in the current meta, because teleport itself is far from obnoxious on the mons that currently get it. Only when wish+teleport are together do we see very reliable wish passing. So initially, I was thinking a complex ban of wish+teleport might be the best way to go.

However, from what information we have on the DLC, we can guess that teleport is gonna have some insane distribution. The biggest offender is chansey, and to a lesser extent, pokemon like slowbro are gonna have access to teleport+regenerator, which sounds absolutely braindead. When I think of running into that 1600s player wielding chansey HO, I can kind of chuckle and smh because chansey sucks up too much momentum to be a good fit. But when you throw teleport into the mix, I can see chansey dominating the meta, fitting into every kind of team and giving up no momentum with teleport. It doesn't even matter that wish+teleport won't be legal on chansey, teleport will be all it needs to become the most difficult pokemon to handle in the tier.

With all of THAT in mind, I think that we should first handle vish, wait for DLC to come out, confirm our suspicions on the lameness of teleport, and then probably suspect teleport itself. After at least these 2 suspects we might have a cool meta on our hands. I do hope some threads in policy forums open up soon to address these issues.
Whenever I see someone say we should suspect dracovish

1587417679746.png


Everybody gangsta until Fishious Rend 2HKO defensive toxapex after SR.

My personal opinion: I think we should look at Vish, Kyurem and Zeraora in that order before DLC. I know UU has done multiple suspects at once, is that on the table for OU? For what it's worth I would think of doing Vish + Kyurem and then let the meta settle if any action has taken place, especially since Vish warps the meta so much.

Re: Clefable, I think people just need to accept that it's the best pokemon in the game. Teleport isn't a broken move, and neither is wish. IMO, people just haven't accepted that it's a new strategy and it's really good. If Clefable is broken, then we should suspect it. But I don't think it is. I just think it's good. People also complained about Lando-T last gen.

Regarding Chansey with teleport, it does seem absurd. If it hard walls every special attacker, gets rocks up, and keeps up insane momentum then it could legitimately be broken. In theory it honestly sounds broken. So in the same vein, if it is broken, we should suspect Chansey/Blissey. Simple as that. Obviously, this is all theory for now.

One way to tell that it isn't teleport that is the issue: what if Chansey/Clefable had parting shot / u turn? etc. Teleport is a great move but it isn't the issue.
 
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Actually, you only need 164 Spe after Shift Gear to outspeed scarf jolly Excadrill. The extra crispy 8 EV can be dumped into Atk.
But be aware that:
+1 92 Atk Toxtricity Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 264-312 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You won't be able to KO it without some chip damage first
Does the 8 extra attack help against common mons and also, are we not going to talk about how tox BODIES clef and corv?
 
Whew, we dodged a bullet there.
IMO, Melmetal is definitely deserving of a second suspect down the road (and anyone who's played Nat Dex will agree it's not really an issue there), but right now the tier needs fixing up and releasing Melmetal into the metagame would have just made justifying bans on other mons harder. There are mons coming in the DLC that do a much better job of keeping it in check (Teleport Slowbro is nuts lol), so I'd love to see another retest once things have settled down.

Anyway, it's pretty easy to see there's an issue when OUPL Week 1 has only 2 SS games without two pink blobs staring each other down.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-486455 (No Clefs)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-488438 (One Clef that should have arguably won)
Like I said earlier, the root cause of all this is Dracovish forcing mons like Pex into running PhysDef, which makes Clef the only special blanket left in the tier. LORD VISH is just dumb. Toad is the only real viable check to it and it's prone to getting worn down eg:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-493169
This entire game basically comes down to a 50/50 between Vish clicking Rend or Fangs because Toad was weakened.

Once Vish is out of the way and the tier has allowed special walls to be Water-type again, I think Clef does need to be looked at. Pre-HOME it was undoubtedly one of the best mons in the tier, and had two very good sets with utility options on both. The 4th slot on traditional WishClef saw a lot of experimentation thanks to Clef's deep movepool. HOME and Teleport almost completely obliterated one of those sets and sealed up the 4th slot on the other. Not to mention it removed a competitor in Sylveon from the metagame overnight. Clef turned from a versatile glue to a one-trick-pony. Should speak volumes then, that this one-trick-pony is on every team that isn't HO. I don't think it's Teleport in particular that's the issue here. Nor is it Wish, or even the combination of WishPort. Clef and Clef alone is broken because it:
  • Has reasonable to high bulk combined with an excellent typing and access to reliable recovery, which makes its WishPort reliable and allows it to heal itself afterwards.
  • Has Magic Guard, which prevents it taking chip damage from literally anything and makes it impossible to cripple with status.
  • Has a decent SpA and a powerful STAB in Moonblast that prevents it being too passive.
So Clef is broken, but IMHO removing it now would be like removing the brick that holds up the wall. LORD VISH has to go first.
Re: Clefable, I think people just need to accept that it's the best pokemon in the game. Teleport isn't a broken move, and neither is wish. IMO, people just haven't accepted that it's a new strategy and it's really good. If Clefable is broken, then we should suspect it. But I don't think it is. I just think it's good. People also complained about Lando-T last gen.
Lando-T was a centralizing mon because it served as a glue. It could do a variety of things well and fill in holes in teambuilding. It centralised the tier in healthy ways thanks to its defined weaknesses (No reliable recovery, crippling Ice weakness, 4MSS). It was never quite the best at whatever it chose to do, but it was always an option in every teamslot in the builder, which lead to it being on many teams, but doing a different thing on each team. On one team it was a suicide lead, next a breaker, then a pivot... You see? Lando-T did everything decently and was a boon to whatever team it was on, while never quite being the star player.
Contrast Clef, which only ever fills one slot in the builder. The Clef slot. Which really sums it up. What does it do on any team it's on? WishPort. That's it.
I think the closest we have to a Lando-T this gen is either Dragapult (but it doesn't get access to hazards or hazard control, nor does it provide much defensively) or Excadrill (who is presently suffering from inability to sweep syndrome aka losing to Corviknight).
Anyway, hopefully this shows why Clef is just too strong (because everyone already knows about LORD VISH) and needs to be suspected. I think if we reach the conclusion that it is healthy and just the best mon in the tier, it should be via suspect, like Scizor in Gen 7 UU.
 
I've been experimenting with more UU mons in OU, and I was wondering if anyone saw any value in either Drapion or Rotom-Wash?


Drapion is interesting to me because of the combination of T-Spikes, Taunt, and STAB Knock Off. Fourth could probably be Poison Jab for Clef or something. I'm not sure if a bulkier or more offensive EV spread would be best for Drapion. The problem I see with him is that he doesn't fit great on offensive teams and if you don't mind a more passive mon, Pex for T-Spikes is pretty much always better. Drapion also can't really function like a pivot the way Incineroar does. Still though, I'm trying to see if Drapion has some niche.


It's still pretty weird to me that Rotom-Wash is in UU. The main advantages that I see for him over Rotom-Heat are better defensive typing, not being as susceptible to Rocks so it can run Lefties, and beating Rotom-Heat head-to-head. I think using Rotom-Wash as a bulky defogger with enough speed to outrun adamant CB Dracovish could capitalize on these benefits the most. Maybe a set with Hydro, Discharge or Volt Switch, Defog, and Pain Split, Wisp, or Toxic could work. Again though, he's usually outclassed by other defoggers like Corviknight or Mandibuzz.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone else had any thoughts on or experience with using Drapion and Rotom-Wash in OU.

Edit: Also, I wasn't sure if it was more applicable to post this here or in the Q&A thread; sorry if I made the wrong call.

Edit 2: One other UU mon I think is interesting is bulky, sunless Venusaur.


Sleep is uncommon in OU but it can be influential on the outcome of games. I don't think that there are many better options for sleep inducers in OU than Venusaur. A max phys Def variant is one of the best possible answers to Zeraora and switching in on him gives you a free Sleep Powder. Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Protect/Toxic/Knock Off or maybe Sludge Bomb for Clef rounds out the set. Speaking of Clef, Venusaur does a pretty good job of threatening Clef because Sleep Powder prevents Teleport shenanigans. Venusaur obviously takes care of Toad as well and can sometimes do alright against Excadrill in a pinch thanks to Giga Drain/Black Sludge and maybe even Leech Seed recovery.
I will give credit to blunder as well because he used bulky Venusaur on a team built by Jeanzera in his latest video.
 
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Ruft

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I want to give my thoughts on which Pokemon I personally think are worthy of undergoing a suspect test going forward.

Pokemon I believe to be clearly problematic:

:ss/clefable:

Let's start off with the elephant in the room. Clefable with Wish + Teleport is near mandatory on balance teams right now (which is by far the most dominant playstyle) and this has an incredibly unhealthy effect on the metagame. Wish + Teleport makes it so that every Pokemon on the team essentially has reliable recovery, but I don't think it's this combination that's necessarily broken. You don't (and I very much doubt you would after a Clefable ban) see people using Xatu, Gardevoir, Gallade or Alolan Raichu to do the same thing and for very good reason: they don't have the ability to take hits for its teammates like Clefable does. Clefable has good bulk that is heavily amplified by its excellent ability in Magic Guard that makes it so it can't be chipped by hazards or status while simultaneously allowing it to absorb status for its teammates. Additionally, its pure Fairy typing is amazing as it allows it to check an abundance of common threats. I firmly believe it's the combination of these factors that make Clefable so dominant, not just the fact that it has both Wish and Teleport. This is further evidenced by the fact that Clefable was already by far the most dominant Pokemon before the release of Home, which gave us Teleport. Because of this, I personally believe a suspect test on Clefable is the way to go.

That is not to say that Teleport itself is clear from being suspect-worthy. There's a very real possibility that when the first DLC drops Teleport Slowbro and/or Teleport Chansey (which can't have Teleport in tandem with Wish for what it's worth) could be problematic as well, in which case Teleport as a whole could be looked at and Clefable given a second chance. However, this is speculation at this point and I don't think future metagames should be considered when judging the metagame at hand, which is why I believe Clefable is what should be looked at for the time being.

:ss/kyurem:

Kyurem is the Pokemon I'm most convinced is broken. Aside from a few Pokemon that are not so common in Snorlax, Sylveon, and Bronzong, specially defensive Clefable is generally gonna be your Pokemon of choice to "reliably" check Kyurem, as actual Ice resistant Pokemon tend to get demolished by Freeze-Dry, Earth Power or Draco Meteor. However, in reality it's not reliable in the slightest. Timid Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam does 42.8 - 51% to Clefable, which means that any slight chip damage or removal of its Leftovers means it's at risk of being 2HKO'd. And that's assuming that Kyurem is Timid with Ice Beam and not running Modest or Blizzard, at which point you'll always be at risk. I haven't even mentioned the fact that Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry both have a chance to freeze, which means that even if you play diligently and keep your Clefable healthy throughout the game, there's a good chance it'll just get frozen and you lose the game on the spot, if that hadn't already occurred earlier. Because of this, I believe Kyurem is clearly problematic and deserves a suspect test.

:ss/dracovish:

Dracovish's case is a bit different. Rather than being unhealthy in the way it plays, it's mostly its straining effect on teambuilding that's problematic. A balance team lacking a Dracovish check in one of Seismitoad, (Baneful Bunker) Toxapex or Ferrothorn (which all need to be physically defensive generally) is often going to have a very tough time dealing with an opposing Dracovish, and it's just a common enough threat that forgoing it is too risky. At this point it's a horse that's been beaten beyond death, but I agree with the fact that Dracovish's straining effect on teambuilding is enough to make it deserving of a suspect test.

Pokemon I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are worthy of a suspect test:

:ss/conkeldurr:

This is probably a less popular opinion, but I think Conkeldurr does have clear traits of being broken. A Guts-boosted Conkeldurr has the ability to 2HKO any Pokemon in the metagame with one of Close Combat, Facade or Knock Off. (No, this statement is not an exaggeration. Yes, Close Combat 2HKOs Hippowdon. Yes, Facade can 2HKO Toxapex. No, I don't consider Neutralizing Gas Weezing viable.) The Pokemon that actually outspeed it and threaten it back can be OHKO'd. This means a well played Conkeldurr essentially has no switch-ins. Clefable can run 136 Spe EVs to outspeed it (and also needs a bit of Defense investment to avoid the OHKO from Facade) but that means it fails to reliably check the other Pokemon it's supposed to, meaning this is only possible on certain team featuring the likes of Snorlax to check Dragapult and Kyurem for it. I've said this before but I believe a well played Conkeldurr is the single hardest Pokemon for balance teams to deal with.

:ss/zeraora:

Finally, I think Zeraora also has traits of being broken. Reliable checks are incredibly hard to come by as they depend on what set it's running, meaning that the first time Zeraora is in, it's often a guessing game of which one it is. You're gonna be inclined to check it with Hippowdon or Seismitoad, which is fine if it's Bulk Up but if it uses Grass Knot you're taking massive damage. You can go Rotom-Heat but take close to half from Close Combat or lose your Heavy-Duty Boots due to Knock Off and take Stealth Rock damage the next time you come in. Kommo-o works great if it lacks Play Rough but if it does have it it's dead. The game can just devolve into this guessing game and can end up in your checks being weakened enough where a Bulk Up-boosted Zeraora wins the game. You might think to be able to make assumptions based on the rest of its set (4 attacks with Grass Knot if Life Orb/Expert Belt/Metronome, no Play Rough if Knock Off or vice versa, etc.) or even the rest of the team, but that is an incredibly dangerous game to play as that means you can lose to anyone going slightly off-template. Zeraora also has a strain on teambuilding as you generally want to have one of Hippowdon or Seismitoad to deal with Bulk Up Zeraora and Kommo-o (in case of no Play Rough) or Rotom-H to deal with 4 attacks Zeraora. Overall, Zeraora is generally a major headache to both prepare for and play against, which is why I do think it's worthy of a suspect test.

Conclusion
I believe that after these Pokemon have been looked at the metagame would be in a much healthier place, in terms of both teambuilding and playing. The problem is of course that the DLC is inching closer, meaning there might not be enough time to test all these Pokemon and/or it might shift the metagame enough to the point that some if not all of the Pokemon I talked about might not be problematic any longer. However, I think this is not something that should currently be taken into consideration. Suspect tests should happen based on the metagame as it is now; retests can always happen later on after a DLC metagame shift. Regarding the time element, perhaps suspecting multiple things simultaneously could be considered.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
I want to give my thoughts on which Pokemon I personally think are worthy of undergoing a suspect test going forward.

Pokemon I believe to be clearly problematic:

:ss/clefable:

Let's start off with the elephant in the room. Clefable with Wish + Teleport is near mandatory on balance teams right now (which is by far the most dominant playstyle) and this has an incredibly unhealthy effect on the metagame. Wish + Teleport makes it so that every Pokemon on the team essentially has reliable recovery, but I don't think it's this combination that's necessarily broken. You don't (and I very much doubt you would after a Clefable ban) see people using Xatu, Gardevoir, Gallade or Alolan Raichu to do the same thing and for very good reason: they don't have the ability to take hits for its teammates like Clefable does. Clefable has good bulk that is heavily amplified by its excellent ability in Magic Guard that makes it so it can't be chipped by hazards or status while simultaneously allowing it to absorb status for its teammates. Additionally, its pure Fairy typing is amazing as it allows it to check an abundance of common threats. I firmly believe it's the combination of these factors that make Clefable so dominant, not just the fact that it has both Wish and Teleport. This is further evidenced by the fact that Clefable was already by far the most dominant Pokemon before the release of Home, which gave us Teleport. Because of this, I personally believe a suspect test on Clefable is the way to go.

That is not to say that Teleport itself is clear from being suspect-worthy. There's a very real possibility that when the first DLC drops Teleport Slowbro and/or Teleport Chansey (which can't have Teleport in tandem with Wish for what it's worth) could be problematic as well, in which case Teleport as a whole could be looked at and Clefable given a second chance. However, this is speculation at this point and I don't think future metagames should be considered when judging the metagame at hand, which is why I believe Clefable is what should be looked at for the time being.

:ss/kyurem:

Kyurem is the Pokemon I'm most convinced is broken. Aside from a few Pokemon that are not so common in Snorlax, Sylveon, and Bronzong, specially defensive Clefable is generally gonna be your Pokemon of choice to "reliably" check Kyurem, as actual Ice resistant Pokemon tend to get demolished by Freeze-Dry, Earth Power or Draco Meteor. However, in reality it's not reliable in the slightest. Timid Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam does 42.8 - 51% to Clefable, which means that any slight chip damage or removal of its Leftovers means it's at risk of being 2HKO'd. And that's assuming that Kyurem is Timid with Ice Beam and not running Modest or Blizzard, at which point you'll always be at risk. I haven't even mentioned the fact that Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry both have a chance to freeze, which means that even if you play diligently and keep your Clefable healthy throughout the game, there's a good chance it'll just get frozen and you lose the game on the spot, if that hadn't already occurred earlier. Because of this, I believe Kyurem is clearly problematic and deserves a suspect test.

:ss/dracovish:

Dracovish's case is a bit different. Rather than being unhealthy in the way it plays, it's mostly its straining effect on teambuilding that's problematic. A balance team lacking a Dracovish check in one of Seismitoad, (Baneful Bunker) Toxapex or Ferrothorn (which all need to be physically defensive generally) is often going to have a very tough time dealing with an opposing Dracovish, and it's just a common enough threat that forgoing it is too risky. At this point it's a horse that's been beaten beyond death, but I agree with the fact that Dracovish's straining effect on teambuilding is enough to make it deserving of a suspect test.

Pokemon I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are worthy of a suspect test:

:ss/conkeldurr:

This is probably a less popular opinion, but I think Conkeldurr does have clear traits of being broken. A Guts-boosted Conkeldurr has the ability to 2HKO any Pokemon in the metagame with one of Close Combat, Facade or Knock Off. (No, this statement is not an exaggeration. Yes, Close Combat 2HKOs Hippowdon. Yes, Facade can 2HKO Toxapex. No, I don't consider Neutralizing Gas Weezing viable.) The Pokemon that actually outspeed it and threaten it back can be OHKO'd. This means a well played Conkeldurr essentially has no switch-ins. Clefable can run 136 Spe EVs to outspeed it (and also needs a bit of Defense investment to avoid the OHKO from Facade) but that means it fails to reliably check the other Pokemon it's supposed to, meaning this is only possible on certain team featuring the likes of Snorlax to check Dragapult and Kyurem for it. I've said this before but I believe a well played Conkeldurr is the single hardest Pokemon for balance teams to deal with.

:ss/zeraora:

Finally, I think Zeraora also has traits of being broken. Reliable checks are incredibly hard to come by as they depend on what set it's running, meaning that the first time Zeraora is in, it's often a guessing game of which one it is. You're gonna be inclined to check it with Hippowdon or Seismitoad, which is fine if it's Bulk Up but if it uses Grass Knot you're taking massive damage. You can go Rotom-Heat but take close to half from Close Combat or lose your Heavy-Duty Boots due to Knock Off and take Stealth Rock damage the next time you come in. Kommo-o works great if it lacks Play Rough but if it does have it it's dead. The game can just devolve into this guessing game and can end up in your checks being weakened enough where a Bulk Up-boosted Zeraora wins the game. You might think to be able to make assumptions based on the rest of its set (4 attacks with Grass Knot if Life Orb/Expert Belt/Metronome, no Play Rough if Knock Off or vice versa, etc.) or even the rest of the team, but that is an incredibly dangerous game to play as that means you can lose to anyone going slightly off-template. Zeraora also has a strain on teambuilding as you generally want to have one of Hippowdon or Seismitoad to deal with Bulk Up Zeraora and Kommo-o (in case of no Play Rough) or Rotom-H to deal with 4 attacks Zeraora. Overall, Zeraora is generally a major headache to both prepare for and play against, which is why I do think it's worthy of a suspect test.

Conclusion
I believe that after these Pokemon have been looked at the metagame would be in a much healthier place, in terms of both teambuilding and playing. The problem is of course that the DLC is inching closer, meaning there might not be enough time to test all these Pokemon and/or it might shift the metagame enough to the point that some if not all of the Pokemon I talked about might not be problematic any longer. However, I think this is not something that should currently be taken into consideration. Suspect tests should happen based on the metagame as it is now; retests can always happen later on after a DLC metagame shift. Regarding the time element, perhaps suspecting multiple things simultaneously could be considered.
It's kind of funny and telling that you just listed half of the breakers ppl use in the tier as suspect worthy.

I want to clarify my stance on wishport and all that nonsense.
Personally, I am against a clefable suspect or clefable ban. When I think of all the moving parts of the equation that make wishport balance dominant and that make wishport good at all, I think teleport is far more accountable for the BS than clefable is. Others have brought up that wishport is not good on other mons like xatu, it only works well because of clefable's resilience. This is very true, clefable's innate defensive qualities are part of what makes wishport clef so good. But I think teleport is clearly the more broken element here, clefable has always been this defensively solid but I have never thought of it as impossible to handle or unhealthy (in gen7 at least, we don't talk about gen6 clef).

I think teleport being the part we should target will become more clear once DLC drops. Chansey will have it, Regen slowbro will have it, I'm pretty sure machamp will have it? Chansey and slowbro will undoubtedly be obnoxious with it, and I think people will understand that chansey and slowbro themselves are not that bad, it's just teleport that makes them awful. Yes, teleport is not gonna be obnoxious on machamp because machamp does not have the same defensive qualities that chansey and slowbro do. Just bc frail mons don't use teleport well, it doesn't excuse teleport from being the problem.
Ofc this is all just broad theorymonning and I'd wait until DLC before we address wishport or clefable. In the meantime I encourage you all to build fun and interesting HOs :]
 
I want to give my thoughts on which Pokemon I personally think are worthy of undergoing a suspect test going forward.

Pokemon I believe to be clearly problematic:

:ss/clefable:

Let's start off with the elephant in the room. Clefable with Wish + Teleport is near mandatory on balance teams right now (which is by far the most dominant playstyle) and this has an incredibly unhealthy effect on the metagame. Wish + Teleport makes it so that every Pokemon on the team essentially has reliable recovery, but I don't think it's this combination that's necessarily broken. You don't (and I very much doubt you would after a Clefable ban) see people using Xatu, Gardevoir, Gallade or Alolan Raichu to do the same thing and for very good reason: they don't have the ability to take hits for its teammates like Clefable does. Clefable has good bulk that is heavily amplified by its excellent ability in Magic Guard that makes it so it can't be chipped by hazards or status while simultaneously allowing it to absorb status for its teammates. Additionally, its pure Fairy typing is amazing as it allows it to check an abundance of common threats. I firmly believe it's the combination of these factors that make Clefable so dominant, not just the fact that it has both Wish and Teleport. This is further evidenced by the fact that Clefable was already by far the most dominant Pokemon before the release of Home, which gave us Teleport. Because of this, I personally believe a suspect test on Clefable is the way to go.

That is not to say that Teleport itself is clear from being suspect-worthy. There's a very real possibility that when the first DLC drops Teleport Slowbro and/or Teleport Chansey (which can't have Teleport in tandem with Wish for what it's worth) could be problematic as well, in which case Teleport as a whole could be looked at and Clefable given a second chance. However, this is speculation at this point and I don't think future metagames should be considered when judging the metagame at hand, which is why I believe Clefable is what should be looked at for the time being.

:ss/kyurem:

Kyurem is the Pokemon I'm most convinced is broken. Aside from a few Pokemon that are not so common in Snorlax, Sylveon, and Bronzong, specially defensive Clefable is generally gonna be your Pokemon of choice to "reliably" check Kyurem, as actual Ice resistant Pokemon tend to get demolished by Freeze-Dry, Earth Power or Draco Meteor. However, in reality it's not reliable in the slightest. Timid Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam does 42.8 - 51% to Clefable, which means that any slight chip damage or removal of its Leftovers means it's at risk of being 2HKO'd. And that's assuming that Kyurem is Timid with Ice Beam and not running Modest or Blizzard, at which point you'll always be at risk. I haven't even mentioned the fact that Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry both have a chance to freeze, which means that even if you play diligently and keep your Clefable healthy throughout the game, there's a good chance it'll just get frozen and you lose the game on the spot, if that hadn't already occurred earlier. Because of this, I believe Kyurem is clearly problematic and deserves a suspect test.

:ss/dracovish:

Dracovish's case is a bit different. Rather than being unhealthy in the way it plays, it's mostly its straining effect on teambuilding that's problematic. A balance team lacking a Dracovish check in one of Seismitoad, (Baneful Bunker) Toxapex or Ferrothorn (which all need to be physically defensive generally) is often going to have a very tough time dealing with an opposing Dracovish, and it's just a common enough threat that forgoing it is too risky. At this point it's a horse that's been beaten beyond death, but I agree with the fact that Dracovish's straining effect on teambuilding is enough to make it deserving of a suspect test.

Pokemon I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are worthy of a suspect test:

:ss/conkeldurr:

This is probably a less popular opinion, but I think Conkeldurr does have clear traits of being broken. A Guts-boosted Conkeldurr has the ability to 2HKO any Pokemon in the metagame with one of Close Combat, Facade or Knock Off. (No, this statement is not an exaggeration. Yes, Close Combat 2HKOs Hippowdon. Yes, Facade can 2HKO Toxapex. No, I don't consider Neutralizing Gas Weezing viable.) The Pokemon that actually outspeed it and threaten it back can be OHKO'd. This means a well played Conkeldurr essentially has no switch-ins. Clefable can run 136 Spe EVs to outspeed it (and also needs a bit of Defense investment to avoid the OHKO from Facade) but that means it fails to reliably check the other Pokemon it's supposed to, meaning this is only possible on certain team featuring the likes of Snorlax to check Dragapult and Kyurem for it. I've said this before but I believe a well played Conkeldurr is the single hardest Pokemon for balance teams to deal with.

:ss/zeraora:

Finally, I think Zeraora also has traits of being broken. Reliable checks are incredibly hard to come by as they depend on what set it's running, meaning that the first time Zeraora is in, it's often a guessing game of which one it is. You're gonna be inclined to check it with Hippowdon or Seismitoad, which is fine if it's Bulk Up but if it uses Grass Knot you're taking massive damage. You can go Rotom-Heat but take close to half from Close Combat or lose your Heavy-Duty Boots due to Knock Off and take Stealth Rock damage the next time you come in. Kommo-o works great if it lacks Play Rough but if it does have it it's dead. The game can just devolve into this guessing game and can end up in your checks being weakened enough where a Bulk Up-boosted Zeraora wins the game. You might think to be able to make assumptions based on the rest of its set (4 attacks with Grass Knot if Life Orb/Expert Belt/Metronome, no Play Rough if Knock Off or vice versa, etc.) or even the rest of the team, but that is an incredibly dangerous game to play as that means you can lose to anyone going slightly off-template. Zeraora also has a strain on teambuilding as you generally want to have one of Hippowdon or Seismitoad to deal with Bulk Up Zeraora and Kommo-o (in case of no Play Rough) or Rotom-H to deal with 4 attacks Zeraora. Overall, Zeraora is generally a major headache to both prepare for and play against, which is why I do think it's worthy of a suspect test.

Conclusion
I believe that after these Pokemon have been looked at the metagame would be in a much healthier place, in terms of both teambuilding and playing. The problem is of course that the DLC is inching closer, meaning there might not be enough time to test all these Pokemon and/or it might shift the metagame enough to the point that some if not all of the Pokemon I talked about might not be problematic any longer. However, I think this is not something that should currently be taken into consideration. Suspect tests should happen based on the metagame as it is now; retests can always happen later on after a DLC metagame shift. Regarding the time element, perhaps suspecting multiple things simultaneously could be considered.
I'm glad that you mentioned Conk and Zeraora potentially being worth looking into. People focus on Dracovish a lot because of the strain it puts on team building, and I agree with that sentiment, but Conk and Zeraora are often more annoying to play against. Conk in particular I don't hear much talk about but it's crazy that essentially nothing safely switches into it, as you pointed out. I've found Zeraora typically easier to play around and there are some niche mons that handle all variants (like phys Def Venusaur, as I mentioned earlier), but considering options like that is a testament to the impact it has on team building.
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote but especially bringing up how Conk and Zeraora can be problematic, as they sometimes fly under the radar with Clef/Kyurem/Dracovish being so overtly polarizing. I'm not pushing hard and saying any of those mons are inherently broken, but I agree that it's worth further discussing the impact of all of them on the metagame.
 
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Srn & others considering a ban of Teleport , I'd just want to leave this old thing here in case you haven't read through it before:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-banning-protean-instead-of-greninja.3526563/

imo, tho it's dated, it still shows some good viewpoints regarding the shitshow rabbit hole you're asking to go down, which could further open pandora's box of either policy exceptionalism or complex bans (for those that want clef+tele) that smog has tried to limit in the past.

i myself prefer the simplicity/straight-forward-ness of: if a tier gets something new that makes a previously unbroken/healthy mon into a broken/unhealthy one, then the mon goes.

Like how protean gren went from managable in ORAS until it gaining access to GunkShot+LowKick made it broken and so it was banned. It became usable and arguably un-broken again in gen7 because a whole lotta ways of checking it were introduced/became-viable due to SM/USUM meta.

So for me, suspecting clef would be the best way to go about it currently.

EDIT: thanks guys for fixing my rusty history regarding Gren in ORAS
 
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Leave teleport alone. It's not broken. Suspect the mons. It's incomprehensible to me people can suggest this with a straight face in light of Smogon tiering history and policy. Speed Boost wasn't banned, Blaziken was. Arena Trap was banned (including Diglett) because trapping was deemed uncompetitive across the board. Same for evasion moves. Do you actually think Xatu teleporting is broken? Teleport Ralts? Teleport Beheeyem? Kyurem-B was banned, not Icicle Spear and Dragon Dance. If Teleport is banned can we ban Double Iron Bash so Melmetal can come back before the DLC? Why not skip a Dracovish suspect and ban Fishous Rend, nobody cares about Arctovish amirite?? It's a bottomless rabbithole.

JinLong88 notes Gen 6 Greninja became broken in ORAS when it got Gunk Shot and Low Kick, how can teleport Clef (and the DLC mons) possibly be differentiated from this history?
 
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Srn & others considering a ban of Teleport , I'd just want to leave this old thing here in case you haven't read through it before:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-banning-protean-instead-of-greninja.3526563/

imo, tho it's dated, it still shows some good viewpoints regarding the shitshow rabbit hole you're asking to go down, which could further open pandora's box of either policy exceptionalism or complex bans (for those that want clef+tele) that smog has tried to limit in the past.

i myself prefer the simplicity/straight-forward-ness of: if a tier gets something new that makes a previously unbroken/healthy mon into a broken/unhealthy one, then the mon goes.

Like how gren went from usable in gen6 until its release of its hidden ability made it broken and so it was banned (as i currently understand it; i could be missing something). It became usable and arguably un-broken again in gen7 because a whole lotta ways of checking it were introduced/became-viable due to SM/USUM meta.

So for me, suspecting clef would be the best way to go about it currently.
A correction, it was not Protean becoming available in the middle of the generation that turned Greninja from "balanced" to broken, as it was available from day one. It was getting Gunk Shot and Low Kick from ORAS move tutors, which allowed it to beat preexisting checks like Clefable, Azumarill, Kyurem-B and the niche Empoleon. Regardless, the point still stands, and if anything it is more valid because in this case the comparable course of action would have been banning Gunk Shot (globally or just on Greninja), and it was arguably a Pokémon also on the verge of already being broken. We can all agree that a Wish+Teleport or Clefable+Teleport ban wouldn't really work compared to past policy, and to consider banning Teleport as a whole, you would have to make a compelling argument that it is broken on everything, in the same vein of Baton Pass, including the likes of Xatu and Arcanine (before bandaging your head prior to breaking it about Chansey and Slowbro), and I am just not seeing it.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
A correction, it was not Protean becoming available in the middle of the generation that turned Greninja from "balanced" to broken, as it was available from day one. It was getting Gunk Shot and Low Kick from ORAS move tutors, which allowed it to beat preexisting checks like Clefable, Azumarill, Kyurem-B and the niche Empoleon. Regardless, the point still stands, and if anything it is more valid because in this case the comparable course of action would have been banning Gunk Shot (globally or just on Greninja), and it was arguably a Pokémon also on the verge of already being broken. We can all agree that a Wish+Teleport or Clefable+Teleport ban wouldn't really work compared to past policy, and to consider banning Teleport as a whole, you would have to make a compelling argument that it is broken on everything, in the same vein of Baton Pass, including the likes of Xatu and Arcanine (before bandaging your head prior to breaking it about Chansey and Slowbro), and I am just not seeing it.
I don't think I have to make a compelling argument that teleport is broken on everything because baton pass wasn't broken on everything either. It had the right abusers (who were completely fine and healthy outside of dedicated bp teams) and having those few pokemon get access to baton pass was all that was needed to make it all a shitstorm. Of course baton pass wasn't broken on dickass mons like beedrill or solrock or emolga. It didn't have to be. And I'd argue teleport is the same. Teleport doesn't have to be broken on ralts or beheeyem to be considered for a ban, if it's broken on chansey/slowbro/clefable then that's all I need to make that argument.
 
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