What about the argument that Chansey or Slowbro or Clefable with U-turn or Parting Shot would be just as (potentially) problematic? The advantages Teleport has are -6 priority (but these mons are slow anyway) and that it can't be blocked by Protect or whatever. Is that really enough to push it over the edge?
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)
- Thread starter TPP
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keeping our tiering policy consistent should theoretically be the right way to go but however i truly feel like this is a completely unique situation which we've faced during recent tiering. clefable being able to utilise teleport is broken, plain and simple. the issue arises is that banning clefable as a whole completely flips the metagame upside down and has a whole list of side effects which come with it. clefable is such a staple within the tier and is used as a blanket check to such a wide variety of different pokemon that its removal from the tier just allows said pokemon to run wild essentially. banning this mon as a whole creates way more problems than it solves. i understand the comparisons to how greninja was banned but this is a completely different situation. i feel like banning teleport is the only suitable way to go about this without making the meta more unplayable than it already is.
No, I think you definitely do have to make a compelling argument it’s broken / uncompetitive on everything because you’re banning it on everything. The burden is on you to show why we should deviate from business as usual tiering policy. You’re just doing harm reduction because you want to keep Clef/Bro/Chansey in the the tier and view it as the lesser evil.
Can we ban Thousand Arrows to keep Zygarde 50 when it drops? No? Why not? How about Double Iron Bash so Melmetal can stay? I wanna use Water Absorb Dracovish (Sand Rush will actually be cool) so how about let's just ban Fishous Rend. Maybe we can require everything with over 700 BST hold a lagging tail! I’d love to see Zacian in the tier if we cap it at level 50!
we. ban. pokemon. not. parts. of. them.
I encourage everyone in quarantine to read the whole thread here where literally every argument on move bans has been discussed 1000x https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/banning-dynamicpunch.3573383/
I'll give you the end result from Sam
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i don't think banning clef is such a huge issue as you're making it out to be, especially if vish and kyu go and thus allow defense cores to be more varied and use more slots.
a big thing is you could still viably run sylveon + heal bell user/reuniclus/siglyph
yeah and Srn , to piggy back on what Negative Charge is saying here, there are pretty strong cases in the Protean thread why the burden of proof is on the one pushing a move/ability ban, instead of on the ones promoting to ban the mon and keep the move/ability.
as an aside, i dont think we should be putting any focus on bro/chansey as they are not currently relevant and wont be for some time
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I'm sayin that we're not deviating from business as usual. Banning teleport would happen under the same rationale as banning baton pass. We banned baton pass on everything.
In the protean thread you linked (ty for that), it is repeated that protean itself is not what is broken, it is protean+greninja's speed tier+its movepool. Others toss around the idea that we our bans should be as nonrestrictive as possible, but that seems like a weaker and more rabbit-holey line of thinking to me as well. Same thing for speed boost, speed boost isn't broken itself, it is broken on blaziken, so it is blaziken that should be banned.
Honestly, these are sort of similar to baton pass and teleport too. Baton pass isnt broken on something like beedrill, it was amazing on something like espeon because espeon had magic bounce and etc. Teleport won't be broken on arcanine or cloyster or machamp, it's gonna be problematic on chansey/slowbro/clef. So why did we ban baton pass and not its abusers? Well partially because the whole playstyle was so versatile, banning the abusers wouldn't be effective because it wouldn't be hard to replace lost members. I'd also give some credit to just being frustrated with that versatility, we tried complex bans and baton pass still found a way to be lame so we just banned it altogether.
So maybe teleport isn't that versatile. Maybe once/if we do decide to ban pokemon and not the move, new unhealthy teleport mons will not crop up to take their place. This is all still just theorymonning on my part, and we're all just deliberating how to best handle what is clearly the issue. I wanted to assess our options before we all just hopped onto the ban clef train, because if that is how we decide to tackle it, I can imagine people hopping on the ban clef train very quickly.
What if chansey and slowbro got access to u-turn/parting shot instead? I'm honestly not sure how to feel about that lol. Those moves are more exploitable than teleport imo but if they did become very unhealthy, I'd probably lean towards banning the mon and not the move. So maybe the mons are more of the problem, if they can become unhealthy just with the addition of a pivoting move? Idk yet, I'm in the dark as much as anybody else.
I believe that Gen 8 is broken and needs a ban. Whenever I think about Gen 8 I break out with a raging headache, therefore it is generally unhealthy. Because of Gen 8, I am forced to build my breakfasts around large doses of prescription painkillers and therefore it is very centralising in a negative way. I also believe that post-ban, skipping straight to Gen 9 is also unwise as that simply consists of the Kanto starters, 100 alternative Clefable evolutions, and a Bug type Eeveelution. Hiding in the corner and pretending none of this ever happened is the right thing to do. Quickban immediately.
On a serious note about the take on Clefable and Teleport, etc: I believe Teleport is the issue here for a few reasons. Clefable as a whole runs more sets than just the TelePass set, CM and Aromatherapy cleric are all very viable and I'm sure no one believes that those are a problem with this meta currently, Teleport simply gives it such a good advantage that it's able to abuse those its positive traits to an (arguably) extreme degree. Considering Teleport too, it's a fantastic way for balanced teams to preserve consistent momentum with its defensive pivots; the -1 priority allows it to always have the advantage without having to reduce Speed EVs or IVs like you would on things you'd want to abuse a slow U-Turn or Volt Switch with, it is very convenient for defensive pivots, particularly for bringing in offensive threats safely which is a phenomenal advantage. Comparing it to Baton Pass is a good example because Baton Pass was not broken on everything strictly, it was simply a too good mechanic that had the potential to be broken on a lot of things. This is not on that scale, but it's similar. Looking at more recent events, Arena Trap was banned, not Duggy, because it as a mechanic was broken, one of the determining factors behind this decision was that Diglett and Trapinch became (loosely) viable by virtue of that ability; considering that, would people be using Arcanine, Xatu, and Defensive Cloyster if not for Teleport? Possibly, but Teleport does give them a greater degree of viability than they deserve. I know Teleport is not a direct comparison to Baton Pass or Arena Trap, but suspecting Teleport under the current circumstances would not be 'deviating from business as usual' at all. I'm personally not sure if a suspect around either of these is even a good idea, but if it's going to happen then I think Teleport is your target.
On a serious note about the take on Clefable and Teleport, etc: I believe Teleport is the issue here for a few reasons. Clefable as a whole runs more sets than just the TelePass set, CM and Aromatherapy cleric are all very viable and I'm sure no one believes that those are a problem with this meta currently, Teleport simply gives it such a good advantage that it's able to abuse those its positive traits to an (arguably) extreme degree. Considering Teleport too, it's a fantastic way for balanced teams to preserve consistent momentum with its defensive pivots; the -1 priority allows it to always have the advantage without having to reduce Speed EVs or IVs like you would on things you'd want to abuse a slow U-Turn or Volt Switch with, it is very convenient for defensive pivots, particularly for bringing in offensive threats safely which is a phenomenal advantage. Comparing it to Baton Pass is a good example because Baton Pass was not broken on everything strictly, it was simply a too good mechanic that had the potential to be broken on a lot of things. This is not on that scale, but it's similar. Looking at more recent events, Arena Trap was banned, not Duggy, because it as a mechanic was broken, one of the determining factors behind this decision was that Diglett and Trapinch became (loosely) viable by virtue of that ability; considering that, would people be using Arcanine, Xatu, and Defensive Cloyster if not for Teleport? Possibly, but Teleport does give them a greater degree of viability than they deserve. I know Teleport is not a direct comparison to Baton Pass or Arena Trap, but suspecting Teleport under the current circumstances would not be 'deviating from business as usual' at all. I'm personally not sure if a suspect around either of these is even a good idea, but if it's going to happen then I think Teleport is your target.
Scale is everything here, with Baton Pass we were looking to at very least 10, arguably many more, Pokémon, with a near infinite number of combinations. In this case it's literally ONE Pokémon that can be considered broken because of Teleport. You are misinterpreting the argument about Trapinch and Diglett, the issue isn't that they can be useful per se, it's that they still exibith uncompetitive qualities (guaranting kills, preventing switches, you know the gist). Why would Arcanine being more viable because of Teleport be a bad thing, considering it can't even wishpass? Is Nasty Plot broken because it makes Gengar a better wallbreaker than it "deserves" (what does this even mean?) to be?
Am I seriously reading that Teleport is considered broken?
How many generations again did we always had access to WishPass or Wish Uturn which is functionally the same, since Gen 3 / Gen 4 for U-Turn?
This is a joke right? It is obviously Clefable that's the problem (actually I rather suspect Vish but whatevs).
How many generations again did we always had access to WishPass or Wish Uturn which is functionally the same, since Gen 3 / Gen 4 for U-Turn?
This is a joke right? It is obviously Clefable that's the problem (actually I rather suspect Vish but whatevs).
The Baton Pass comparisons don't hold up. Banning the move was a last resort. Look at how many workarounds were implemented before the eventual ban. The number of abusers, whether passers of receivers, was much too high to have any sort of complex ban. Did we want to banish all of Espeon, Ninjask, Vaporeon, Smeargle, Magearna, Scolipede, etc., to Ubers? Right now, Wish + Teleport is only broken on one Pokemon. If the DLC changes that and we've suddenly got 10+ mons that abuse the tactic in a restrictive way then maybe we can shift the discussion at that point. There is no point in bringing up mons that do not exist in the current metagame.
Don't cherry-pick WishPassing as the only basis for Teleport's general great effectiveness. In the current metagame which has such a huge power disparity, a balance team being able to safely bring in a monster breaker is an incredible advantage, there are so many breakers that benefit from this that it's not a stretch to say that Teleport does exhibit uncompetitive qualities in the current climate. The -1 priority, lack of susceptibility to contact damage or type immunity also give it an edge over U-Turn and Volt Switch (albeit at the cost of chip damage). Now we could ban Clef who is not only healthy but currently an integral part of the metagame with the exception of Teleport bolstering its effectiveness to potentially broken levels, we'd still have high-momentum Telespam gimmick teams demonstrating that Teleport still has arguably uncompetitive potential, and breakers would have even more of a field day tearing teams apart without Clef being a central line of defense against many of them. If you disagree that Teleport in itself is uncompetitive then fair enough, at this point it's just splitting hairs anyway, but a meta that Clef is holding together by a shoestring without Clef is not good and that is hard to dispute. A complex ban between running Wish and Teleport together is also an option, but I really don't think Clef gone is a good idea. I'd sooner start crossing off some of the overly abusive breakers first before we go near Clef, starting with that dumb fish.
So, if Lando got Brave Bird and turned out to be broken we could be justified to ban Brave Bird or Brave Bird+Lando because it would be otherwise beneficial in the metagame?
I also agree that Dracovish is a priority by the way, and the best approach for Clefable for now is wait and see until June, but should it turn out to still be broken banning a move that is broken only on one (or even two, it does not matter) Pokémon out of dozens should not ever be entertained as an option.
One of the Pokemon I personally find the most restrictive in the metagame is Dracovish. Dracovish forces you to use one of a small pool of Pokemon, multiple of which see as much usage as they do because of Dracovish's presence to begin with. Over the course of the entire SS OU metagame thus far, this has remained the case, too. The fact of the matter is that Dracovish initially seemed like a flavor-of-the-month breaker as it began to pop up, but now it strikes me as a consistent top-tier force through a number of different metagame phases. I am not calling for immediate tiering action and I think we should let things settle a little bit after seeing two tests occur back-to-back, but Dracovish is undoubtebly on my personal radar. I am curious to see what others have to say about this Pokemon.
Another Pokemon that is very good, but not necessarily broken currently -- the jury is perhaps still out on this for me, is Kyurem. With the addition of Freeze Dry, it got much better this generation. Many games see it getting in safely repeatedly due to high natural bulk and the ability to compliment teammates that offer pivoting opportunities. From there, Ice Beam and Freeze Dry go a long way alone. Aside from Rotom-Heat and Jirachi, which are not even safe in the long haul without Wish support, you are oftentimes relying upon things like SDef Clefable, which is going to have to avoid freezes repeatedly. I think the element of Ice Beam freezing is actually something that is very important when considering the viability and effectivness of Kyurem. With this said, I do not find it nearly as restrictive or overpowering as Dracovish.
Another Pokemon that is very good, but not necessarily broken currently -- the jury is perhaps still out on this for me, is Kyurem. With the addition of Freeze Dry, it got much better this generation. Many games see it getting in safely repeatedly due to high natural bulk and the ability to compliment teammates that offer pivoting opportunities. From there, Ice Beam and Freeze Dry go a long way alone. Aside from Rotom-Heat and Jirachi, which are not even safe in the long haul without Wish support, you are oftentimes relying upon things like SDef Clefable, which is going to have to avoid freezes repeatedly. I think the element of Ice Beam freezing is actually something that is very important when considering the viability and effectivness of Kyurem. With this said, I do not find it nearly as restrictive or overpowering as Dracovish.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
By itself, Teleport is just a guaranteed slow U-turn that doesn't risk contact damage. That obviously makes it a very good move, which is why it is used on things like Arcanine and Xatu, but no one is advocating to suspect them. Clef's typing, bulk, Magic Guard, and access to Wish along with Teleport is clearly what sets it apart. It's kind of like how Adaptability on Mega-Lucario was too much with his base stats but it's fine on Crawdaunt. I get that analogy isn't perfect because abilities are different than moves but I hope it conveys the general idea. If ultimately when they're released, Chansey and Slowbro are too good with Teleport, they and/or Teleport itself can be suspected then. I also agree with others that we shouldn't worry about how the DLC could affect the meta at this time. Unless I'm missing something, I just don't get why some people view Teleport as the problem; it's a very strong move that may make certain mons too much, but it's fine on others. You can say that about pretty much every good move in the game that has a wide enough distribution. I'm not really advocating for a suspect on Clef now either and I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Clef's impact on the meta overall, but I think that if it comes to that, the discussion should be centered on Clef as a whole, not Teleport. Finally, I've seen a few people say that they're concerned about the effect that removing Clef could have on the meta. That's always a fair concern to have and something that should and would be discussed if a suspect test came around, but the current SS meta is largely bemoaned anyway. Clef is holding the current meta together and significantly shaping it, but if many people are unhappy about the form that the meta has taken, why are we resistant to at least considering it without Clef? It feels kind of like a weird Stockholm-syndrome to me where we dislike what the meta has become but we're afraid of what it would be without Clef. Changes can still be made to the tier if Clef does get banned and that results in the meta not being in a good spot, although I can understand the concern about removing Clef having a snowball effect where other mons become more problematic. I'm not sure though if removing Clef would cause many more problems to arise. Of course we wouldn't know unless it happened and this is all conjecture, but I think that the meta could adapt and other defensive cores, wish passers, and ways to deal with statuses would develop. If the argument is that it's more pressing to look into other mons like Dracovish before Clef, fair enough and I would agree to that. However, I don't think that should preclude any discussion about possibly suspecting Clef, and if it does come to that, I believe that Clef specifically should be looked at, not Teleport. As a last random aside, it's funny to me that all these years later, Teleport is the move that has become controversial for being so powerful. I still think back to playing Red Version and only thinking of Teleport as the worthless move that made Abra annoying to catch, and then later learning about using it for the Mew glitch.
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I've been very interested in trying to find situations analogous to the current Clef discussion in OU. Most mons we see banned are offensive powerhouses, so it's hard to find good comparisons. I started off looking at the most obvious one, Mega Sableye, which was way before my time but has some good elements of comparison.
This statement could easily be applied to Clef in the current metagame. The issue with Clef is not that it is inherently broken, but that it offers a ridiculous risk-reward trade off, specifically to balance teams.
The second suspect that I think is relevant is the Zygarde suspect from SM OU. I think most people should be more familiar with this one, but the biggest similarities I see are the versatility of sets alongside the addition of one "broken" move between metagames (Thousand/ WishPort) and while not seen as game breaking are very centralizing in their respective metagames (Clef moreso than Zyg). I personally do not know if I would advocate a test of Clef but I think these tests of Pokemon generally agreed not to be broken yet still unhealthy are very applicable to discussion around this.
ABR said:
This statement could easily be applied to Clef in the current metagame. The issue with Clef is not that it is inherently broken, but that it offers a ridiculous risk-reward trade off, specifically to balance teams.
The second suspect that I think is relevant is the Zygarde suspect from SM OU. I think most people should be more familiar with this one, but the biggest similarities I see are the versatility of sets alongside the addition of one "broken" move between metagames (Thousand/ WishPort) and while not seen as game breaking are very centralizing in their respective metagames (Clef moreso than Zyg). I personally do not know if I would advocate a test of Clef but I think these tests of Pokemon generally agreed not to be broken yet still unhealthy are very applicable to discussion around this.
I think it is time to acknowledge the fact that, defensive pokemon can also be broken. When was the last time we suspected such a pokemon? Deoxys D was always quick banned, and then what... Mega Sableye suspect . I hardly remember another case. Mega Sableye was banned like 2 week before Sun & Moon relase. So we had to deal with broken mon for entire ORAS metagame, just because we hesitated for too long.
Adding teleport to clefable simply pushed it over the edge, and in deserves suspect test. Everybody who plays on the ladder recently knows how it works. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with the move itself, no other mon with access to it shows any signs of being unhealthy. Complex bans should not be considered, just to save clefable. Also argument about clef on its own preventing whole tier from collapse is just plain bulshit, and tiering policy never worked that way. Checking potentially broken mons with other broken mon is not a way. That is what bans are used for.
Adding teleport to clefable simply pushed it over the edge, and in deserves suspect test. Everybody who plays on the ladder recently knows how it works. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with the move itself, no other mon with access to it shows any signs of being unhealthy. Complex bans should not be considered, just to save clefable. Also argument about clef on its own preventing whole tier from collapse is just plain bulshit, and tiering policy never worked that way. Checking potentially broken mons with other broken mon is not a way. That is what bans are used for.
Looking at Smogon's previous bans, they ban moves or abilities if either 1.) majority abuses it like Shadow Tag and Baton Pass, or 2.) at least two Pokémon abuse it like Weather+Speed abilities in BW. As of now, Clefable is the only Pokémon that abuses the Teleport and WishPort, so it makes sense to ban Clefable (like Protean Greninja in XY). However, once DLC arrives and Chansey and Slowbro starts abusing the mechanic in a similar way, they would fall under case #2. If those 3 gets banned because Teleport/WishPort pushed them over the edge, then it would make sense to ban the moves, not the Pokémon. Majority of the Chlorophyll, Swift Swim, and Sand Rush users were affected by the BW Weather Clause just because a small pool of Pokémon like Excadrill, Kingdra, etc. abused it. Since Excadrill, Kingdra, etc. are proven to be balanced without their weather teamate, the complex ban was made instead. The same would happen with Teleport/WishPort Clefable, Chansey, and Slowbro if they are proven to be ban worthy with it and balanced without.
That said, I'm not really sure if Teleport, WishPort, or Clefable are banworthy or not, so don't take my post as a pro-ban or anti-ban argument. No comment on Chansey as well. However, I do believe that Teleport Slowbro is uncompetitive. Only Torn-T and Mienshao has access to Regerator and U-Turn/Baton Pass. Those Pokémon are too fast that there are times where the Pokémon it brings in have to take damage. Plus, even if they are slow, they don't have the bulk to eat hits as well. Meanwhile, Slowbro has great bulk, always moves last with Teleport and heals with Regenerator. It's uncompetitive as you can consistently get momentum against physical attackers while healing against most of the punishment. Slowbro also isn't passive, so physical attackers can't just slap Taunt on their moveset as you also risk getting hit. I used to think that Alomomola had U-Turn before and wondered why nobody was complaining about that potentially uncompetitive mechanic until I found out it doesn't :/ With the DLC, we would have our first bulky Regenerator with a slow pivoting move that also isn't super passive. The only thing Slowbro is missing is Wish.
That said, I'm not really sure if Teleport, WishPort, or Clefable are banworthy or not, so don't take my post as a pro-ban or anti-ban argument. No comment on Chansey as well. However, I do believe that Teleport Slowbro is uncompetitive. Only Torn-T and Mienshao has access to Regerator and U-Turn/Baton Pass. Those Pokémon are too fast that there are times where the Pokémon it brings in have to take damage. Plus, even if they are slow, they don't have the bulk to eat hits as well. Meanwhile, Slowbro has great bulk, always moves last with Teleport and heals with Regenerator. It's uncompetitive as you can consistently get momentum against physical attackers while healing against most of the punishment. Slowbro also isn't passive, so physical attackers can't just slap Taunt on their moveset as you also risk getting hit. I used to think that Alomomola had U-Turn before and wondered why nobody was complaining about that potentially uncompetitive mechanic until I found out it doesn't :/ With the DLC, we would have our first bulky Regenerator with a slow pivoting move that also isn't super passive. The only thing Slowbro is missing is Wish.
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Slowbro and Chansey don't exist in the game right now so talking about them is pointless. Also, Slowbro not only doesn't got wish, but is not immune to status/ hazard, so it will never be nowhere near clef level of brokenness. I believe Teleport + wish Chansey is illegal so we are talking about simple pivoting. (I always believed that Evolite introduction pushed Chansey too far. Using one pokemon slot let you wall like 99% of special attackers, and yet it has never been brought to suspect, maybe future performance with teleport will finally make that to considerate).
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Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I've been thinking about it more and I do understand why some people are concerned about the potential fallout of banning Clef. If I were to rank how I would personally prioritize what I would like to be suspected, which is different than the Pokemon I consider to be the best in the meta, I would say:
1.
Dracovish
2.
Conkeldurr - Ruft explains my problems with Conk better than I could in this post
3.
Kyurem
4.
Clefable
5.
Zeraora
Now I'm just some random guy and I don't think that my opinion on what should be suspected is all that important, but for the sake of argument, if the mons that I listed were banned in that order, Clef would become even better defensively by the time that the first three were banned. I guess you could argue that Kyurem's presence actually makes Clef more important because Clef is meant to be an answer to Kyurem, but as we know, the freeze chance can mess with that. Conk and Dracovish are both good and common recipients of Wishes/Teleports from Clef, but they're some of the few things that can OHKO Clef as well. So, removing Dracovish, Conk, and Kyurem would only exacerbate the current Wish-Teleport Clef situation. Conversely, if you were just to remove Clef, Kyurem notably could become more of a problem, although other defensive mons like SpDef Corviknight or even Assault Vest Hatterene could rise in prominence as a response (and SpDef Corviknight is obviously very common anyway). They would still need to deal with Kyurem freezing though, but that's an issue with Kyurem. The same could be said that removing Conk would take probably the best breaker out of the tier and could lead to even more problems with an overly-defensive metagame. Cloyster shenanigans also get more annoying without Conk. Removing Dracovish...well, I really feel that he is just very unhealthy for team building and I think that banning him would likely only be a good thing. Sure, some defensive mons get even harder to break without Dracovish, but they're walls for a reason and should be hard to break. As I mentioned earlier, you could argue that banning Dracovish would make Clefable even more problematic, but that leads me to my main point:
Since this meta has a relatively small selection of viable mons, banning one could have a disproportionately larger impact than it would in say USUM or ORAS. I think that adds credence to Ruft's suggestion (at the end of the same post that I linked earlier) of possibly suspecting multiple things simultaneously. I also understand some people advocating waiting until at least the first DLC drops because that's obviously going to change the meta. Again though, I agree with Ruft that we should focus exclusively on the meta that we are currently dealing with and worry about retests if that's something that looks appealing later.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Now I'm just some random guy and I don't think that my opinion on what should be suspected is all that important, but for the sake of argument, if the mons that I listed were banned in that order, Clef would become even better defensively by the time that the first three were banned. I guess you could argue that Kyurem's presence actually makes Clef more important because Clef is meant to be an answer to Kyurem, but as we know, the freeze chance can mess with that. Conk and Dracovish are both good and common recipients of Wishes/Teleports from Clef, but they're some of the few things that can OHKO Clef as well. So, removing Dracovish, Conk, and Kyurem would only exacerbate the current Wish-Teleport Clef situation. Conversely, if you were just to remove Clef, Kyurem notably could become more of a problem, although other defensive mons like SpDef Corviknight or even Assault Vest Hatterene could rise in prominence as a response (and SpDef Corviknight is obviously very common anyway). They would still need to deal with Kyurem freezing though, but that's an issue with Kyurem. The same could be said that removing Conk would take probably the best breaker out of the tier and could lead to even more problems with an overly-defensive metagame. Cloyster shenanigans also get more annoying without Conk. Removing Dracovish...well, I really feel that he is just very unhealthy for team building and I think that banning him would likely only be a good thing. Sure, some defensive mons get even harder to break without Dracovish, but they're walls for a reason and should be hard to break. As I mentioned earlier, you could argue that banning Dracovish would make Clefable even more problematic, but that leads me to my main point:
Since this meta has a relatively small selection of viable mons, banning one could have a disproportionately larger impact than it would in say USUM or ORAS. I think that adds credence to Ruft's suggestion (at the end of the same post that I linked earlier) of possibly suspecting multiple things simultaneously. I also understand some people advocating waiting until at least the first DLC drops because that's obviously going to change the meta. Again though, I agree with Ruft that we should focus exclusively on the meta that we are currently dealing with and worry about retests if that's something that looks appealing later.
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I'm a little sad that Melmetal didn't make it into OU, but I do think it will come back down the line, so I'm not too stressed. For this post I will be borrowing Ruft's formatting to give my thoughts on which elements of the game I personally think are worthy of undergoing a suspect test going forward.
Elements I believe to be clearly problematic:
Dracovish is the single most prevalent issue that I have regarding this metagame. I have time and again heard complaints about how stale team compositions are in this metagame. I would argue that this thing is the primary reason for that problem existing. Any non-HO team lacking a water immunity gets beaten down. Period. Not to mention how well this thing synergizes with my second pick for 'should be suspect tested'. WishPort into Dracovish is nasty. You've heard this all before, but it needs to be said, this thing's effect on teambuilding is unhealthy and overcentralising. I think this thing needs to go.
I agree with the general consensus that WishPort Clef is too much for the metagame. It's usage is unbelievable, being near mandatory on balance and warping teambuilding as a result. In previous generations, have you ever felt that your breaker would be a million times better with reliable recovery? Have you ever wanted the freest switchins of your life? This beast is your answer. Clef has been solid for three generations now, and I would argue that it is currently even better than it was in ORAS. It's bulk, defensive typing, abilities (yes, after testing I think unaware is solid too, don't @ me) and ability to blanket check an insane amount of threats has always been good. I would argue, in difference to Ruft that WishPort pushes it over the edge to broken. This isn't discrediting how insane this mon already was Pre-Home meta. I would say it was already unhealthy for the metagame at large. Just that I believe that is WishPort that will ultimately result in this Pokemon being banned. LO clef remains a threat btw.
Zeraora is in my humble opinion, broken. I would argue this thing is similar to two previous suspects, one in ORAS and one in USUM. Those are Greninja and Zygarde respectively. I say this because of how this thing is 'reliably checked'. In that it isn't. This thing is both versatile and strong, meaning that reliable checks are only reliable if you correctly guess its set. This is not balanced gameplay. Sure there is some skill in scouting and predicting the set it is running, but the onus that this places on the player without zeraora is... difficult to say the least. Games can just devolve into "I need to keep my whole team above --% health or I just lose to Zeraora" OR "I'm fine as long it's not running THAT move". This thing is a pain in the nuts to prep for, requiring at the minimum 2 Pokemon that check different Zeraora sets, or you can be in serious danger of instantly losing. Therefore, I think it is worthy of a suspect. Right after public enemy number 1 and 2 above.
Elements I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are worthy of a suspect test:
I'm a little on the fence about Kyurem. I recognize it's great ability to break half the tier in half. but I do think that thing has 'reliable' answers, which will see usage rises once LORD VISH is banned (if it is). People may disagree with this view, but I am okay with B-C tier picks getting solid usage if it is as an answer to the meta. In this case stuff like Bronzong, Snorlax, Sylveon etc. That being said, Sp Def Corvi and Clef do generally get the job done. Just not in all cases (thank you 10% freeze chance). I dunno, I don't struggle with this mon as much as other things here. That being said, I do think it worthy of a suspect test.
There are... interesting ways to get around defensive steel types that avoid EP though
See Ruft's post, he explains this better than I can. That being said, I AM a proud Neutralising Gas Weezing man, so this is less of an issue to my teams personally. For everybody else, this thing is stupid dumb. The only reason I could deal with it during this suspect test was the amount of people who stay in against lead Melmetal. TL;DR I think this mon is too strong for the tier as it stands, and should be suspected to see if it is worthy of ridesharing.
Elements I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are potentially worthy of a ban:
This one is a bit dicier. I think that King's Rock (and the other flinch item) could potentially be worthy of a straight up quickban. I just think that when this item is abused, it is ultimately uncompetitive. Cloyster and Weaville being the two main culprits that come to mind. I don't really have much to say about this one. I could run inner focus, or steadfast or whatever, sure. But should I have to? Is it not stupid that part of the reason Cloyster was so viable was because you could just flinch past your checks? Serene Grace abusers are in a similar boat, but there is sufficient counterplay to those. This just feels cheap.
Elements that I believe will be a problem in the future
I am of the genuine belief that teleport will prove to be too much for the metagame once DLC drops, and will require a suspect test. I haven't seen the full list of Pokemon that will get it. I do however, know that Slowbro and Chansey will get it. Teleport will be too much on these Pokemon, especially on Chansey. If you think WishPort Clef was bad, wait until you see this thing. It is for this reason that I am hesitant to ban Clef itself at this stage. Let's say Clef gets banned, in no small part due to it gaining Teleport and running the metagame. The ramifications of this decision will be felt in future suspects. At what point do we ban a move > the Pokemon that use it. Baton Pass is the main comparable example here, and that was a whole debacle that could've been avoided by just banning the clearly broken move which required very niche counterplay. Teleport on the other hand, doesn't really have much counterplay. The priority and momentum that this move can provide is insane, especially when combined with Wish. I do think it is worthy of a potential ban once DLC drops, but that's theorymoning, so I guess we will see.
Elements I believe to be clearly problematic:
Dracovish is the single most prevalent issue that I have regarding this metagame. I have time and again heard complaints about how stale team compositions are in this metagame. I would argue that this thing is the primary reason for that problem existing. Any non-HO team lacking a water immunity gets beaten down. Period. Not to mention how well this thing synergizes with my second pick for 'should be suspect tested'. WishPort into Dracovish is nasty. You've heard this all before, but it needs to be said, this thing's effect on teambuilding is unhealthy and overcentralising. I think this thing needs to go.
I agree with the general consensus that WishPort Clef is too much for the metagame. It's usage is unbelievable, being near mandatory on balance and warping teambuilding as a result. In previous generations, have you ever felt that your breaker would be a million times better with reliable recovery? Have you ever wanted the freest switchins of your life? This beast is your answer. Clef has been solid for three generations now, and I would argue that it is currently even better than it was in ORAS. It's bulk, defensive typing, abilities (yes, after testing I think unaware is solid too, don't @ me) and ability to blanket check an insane amount of threats has always been good. I would argue, in difference to Ruft that WishPort pushes it over the edge to broken. This isn't discrediting how insane this mon already was Pre-Home meta. I would say it was already unhealthy for the metagame at large. Just that I believe that is WishPort that will ultimately result in this Pokemon being banned.
Zeraora is in my humble opinion, broken. I would argue this thing is similar to two previous suspects, one in ORAS and one in USUM. Those are Greninja and Zygarde respectively. I say this because of how this thing is 'reliably checked'. In that it isn't. This thing is both versatile and strong, meaning that reliable checks are only reliable if you correctly guess its set. This is not balanced gameplay. Sure there is some skill in scouting and predicting the set it is running, but the onus that this places on the player without zeraora is... difficult to say the least. Games can just devolve into "I need to keep my whole team above --% health or I just lose to Zeraora" OR "I'm fine as long it's not running THAT move". This thing is a pain in the nuts to prep for, requiring at the minimum 2 Pokemon that check different Zeraora sets, or you can be in serious danger of instantly losing. Therefore, I think it is worthy of a suspect. Right after public enemy number 1 and 2 above.
Elements I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are worthy of a suspect test:
I'm a little on the fence about Kyurem. I recognize it's great ability to break half the tier in half. but I do think that thing has 'reliable' answers, which will see usage rises once LORD VISH is banned (if it is). People may disagree with this view, but I am okay with B-C tier picks getting solid usage if it is as an answer to the meta. In this case stuff like Bronzong, Snorlax, Sylveon etc. That being said, Sp Def Corvi and Clef do generally get the job done. Just not in all cases (thank you 10% freeze chance). I dunno, I don't struggle with this mon as much as other things here. That being said, I do think it worthy of a suspect test.
See Ruft's post, he explains this better than I can. That being said, I AM a proud Neutralising Gas Weezing man, so this is less of an issue to my teams personally. For everybody else, this thing is stupid dumb. The only reason I could deal with it during this suspect test was the amount of people who stay in against lead Melmetal. TL;DR I think this mon is too strong for the tier as it stands, and should be suspected to see if it is worthy of ridesharing.
Elements I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are potentially worthy of a ban:
This one is a bit dicier. I think that King's Rock (and the other flinch item) could potentially be worthy of a straight up quickban. I just think that when this item is abused, it is ultimately uncompetitive. Cloyster and Weaville being the two main culprits that come to mind. I don't really have much to say about this one. I could run inner focus, or steadfast or whatever, sure. But should I have to? Is it not stupid that part of the reason Cloyster was so viable was because you could just flinch past your checks? Serene Grace abusers are in a similar boat, but there is sufficient counterplay to those. This just feels cheap.
Elements that I believe will be a problem in the future
I am of the genuine belief that teleport will prove to be too much for the metagame once DLC drops, and will require a suspect test. I haven't seen the full list of Pokemon that will get it. I do however, know that Slowbro and Chansey will get it. Teleport will be too much on these Pokemon, especially on Chansey. If you think WishPort Clef was bad, wait until you see this thing. It is for this reason that I am hesitant to ban Clef itself at this stage. Let's say Clef gets banned, in no small part due to it gaining Teleport and running the metagame. The ramifications of this decision will be felt in future suspects. At what point do we ban a move > the Pokemon that use it. Baton Pass is the main comparable example here, and that was a whole debacle that could've been avoided by just banning the clearly broken move which required very niche counterplay. Teleport on the other hand, doesn't really have much counterplay. The priority and momentum that this move can provide is insane, especially when combined with Wish. I do think it is worthy of a potential ban once DLC drops, but that's theorymoning, so I guess we will see.
no need to write essays for something so simple
Clefable is too strong with the current pool of pokemon in OU. It is too hard to KO and thus too effective at just giving fat wishes to the team. It should be banned.
No idea why you would want to ban any of the breakers *first* -- that will just make clefable even stronger.
Banning teleport would be stupid. Post-DLC, OU will just have a higher power level. Go play UU instead if you want to artificially weaken stuff.
Clefable is too strong with the current pool of pokemon in OU. It is too hard to KO and thus too effective at just giving fat wishes to the team. It should be banned.
No idea why you would want to ban any of the breakers *first* -- that will just make clefable even stronger.
Banning teleport would be stupid. Post-DLC, OU will just have a higher power level. Go play UU instead if you want to artificially weaken stuff.
I'm going to be entirely honest: I don't see any merit in trying to ban Wishport Clefable.
Without a doubt, Clefable is not only the best Pokemon in the current metagame, but also harbors one of the best sets in Wish + Protect + Teleport + Moonblast. We know how incredible this set is, not only in its defensive utility, but in the fact it can heal worn down defensive behemoths that can't heal reliably for free. What makes it so good is that, unlike Xatu/Gardevoir/Gallade, it doesn't need to compromise its team slot, as it is able to do much more than pass Wishes such as check Dragon spam, and its godlike utility as a whole goes without saying. Consequentially, I've noticed a lot of people are mentioning how they think Clefable is the problem, as it is utterly overcentralizing balance. While I believe that this is an issue, I don't believe this in of itself is Clefable's fault. As the Melmetal suspect passed through, I made many observations regarding the role that Clefable played in balance, and I realized that Clefable itself isn't the problem, but rather offense itself.
There have been many relevant arguments regarding how much Dracovish constrains teambuilding in its own right, alongside behemoths such as Kyurem and Zeraora. Despite how we have lost Z-Moves and Megas going into Gen 8, we also lost a lot of defense in turn as well, and we gained a lot of unprecedented wallbreakers. Whether they're completely new or simply refurbished with new moves, it is without question that these Pokemon are a problem at their core. I addressed in this post here in more detail on how Clefable more or less was trying to act as a team captain trying to keep defensive Pokemon healthy to keep taking on these offensive threats. With this in mind, it's unsurprising that Wishport Clefable is so good in a meta where Pokemon can dismantle defensive threats that struggle to keep themselves healthy, especially with AT now gone.
However, I don't believe this is a case of broken checking broken, as I feel Kyurem and Zeraora offensively are only as powerful as they are because of the meta that they're surrounded by. Even if Teleport is the issue, I feel the true culprit of it and Offense's strength (and currently the bigger issue regardless of if Teleport is broken or not) is Dracovish.
Truthfully, there have been a lot of arguments regarding suspecting Dracovish, and at this point, I can't help but agree. The defensive metagame loses so many of its options just to not lose to Dracovish that options to checking things like Kyurem and Zeraora are severely limited, and allow for them to freely dismantle the metagame without much of an issue. Seismitoad, for instance, is used so much because it compresses a Rocker, Electric immunity, a generally defensive Pokemon, and, most notably, a water immunity. Gen 8 marks the first time possibly ever where having a Water immunity is a huge reason as to why a Pokemon is viable. As of this post, Seismitoad sits at the A rank in the Viability rankings, and despite the time since the last update, I feel this hasn't even remotely faltered. Despite 3 straight generations of mediocrity, suddenly, it's an OU staple, mainly because it checks Dracovish. As a result of the overbearing strength of Dracovish, ultimately mediocre things like Seismitoad are run, and in turn, further encourage use of Wishport Clefable so it can do its job while making sure Dracovish and co. doesn't utterly dismantle its team.
As a result, Dracovish puts such a strain on defense because you have to always consider that chance of running into Dracovish. If you don't have Ferro, Pex, or an Immunity, you lose at team preview--even then, Ferrothorn and Pex are still greatly dented by Fishious Rend, especially in the Rain. Dracovish fits every bill of overcentralizing that is suspect-worthy, most notably, warping the metagame around itself. Water immunities and resistances are required almost exclusively because of Dracovish, and the defensive metagame is forced to lose out on options just because Dracovish will dismantle it otherwise. Wishport Clefable has to be used, because it is the only real way that things handling the offense of the metagame can really do their jobs. theotherguytm did an amazing job explaining as to why Dracovish is a problem in his post earlier in this thread, which you can see here.
Overall, it's true that Clefable is overcentralizing how balance is to be played, but I can't help but say that the source of the problem isn't Clefable itself, but, rather, the reason as to why it's so centralizing to begin with: offense. More specifically, the issue is Dracovish forcing options away from relevancy that could legitimately check Zera/Kyu/Terrakion. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk
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That said offensive teams similarly have some struggles dealing with Dracovish. The Band set might honestly be easier for some more offensive teams in general to deal with as mons like Kyurem, Hydreigon, and Terrakion are able to outpace it and keep it in check offensively. The scarf set, which usually runs Adamant, can be outpaced by Dragapult and Zeraora which definitely helps offensive teams better deal with Dracovish. Top this all off with some stronger priority users like Bisharp and Conkeldurr that can handle taking one non double damaged Fisheous Rend and offense has a fighting chance. While this is all fine and dandy it's also worth spotlighting that if offensive teams don't have one of these faster mons/strong priority users in they essentially lose a mon, meaning Dracovish is far from useless in the matchup offense just arguably has an easier time dealing with the Vish in a creative fashion than having to rely on the same 3-4 choices for switch ins like balance.
As I mentioned earlier Dracovish is by no means unstoppable, it's just potentially to centralizing as it forces bulkier teams into a smaller box team building wise. I really don't see its presence in the tier as anything but an unhealthy hindrance to the team building process.
I think you're overstating clef's wishpassing to defensive pokemon and understating clef's wishpassing to breakers. Ur breakers will get chipped taking hazards, helmet/barbs, switching into weaker moves to force mons out, LO chip etc. And clefable is very much responsible for making these breakers so effective because it can safely heal that chip damage off. I can play MUCH more recklessly with a pokemon like specs kyurem knowing that I don't really have to preserve its health, I can just wish it back up later, and this safety net that wishport clef provides drastically reduces the effectiveness of chip damage on breakers. I don't mind taking overheats from rotom-h or even body presses from corviknight because I can heal that shit off later, I can just focus on getting my kills in now.
I'm going to be entirely honest: I don't see any merit in trying to ban Wishport Clefable.
Without a doubt, Clefable is not only the best Pokemon in the current metagame, but also harbors one of the best sets in Wish + Protect + Teleport + Moonblast. We know how incredible this set is, not only in its defensive utility, but in the fact it can heal worn down defensive behemoths that can't heal reliably for free. What makes it so good is that, unlike Xatu/Gardevoir/Gallade, it doesn't need to compromise its team slot, as it is able to do much more than pass Wishes such as check Dragon spam, and its godlike utility as a whole goes without saying. Consequentially, I've noticed a lot of people are mentioning how they think Clefable is the problem, as it is utterly overcentralizing balance. While I believe that this is an issue, I don't believe this in of itself is Clefable's fault. As the Melmetal suspect passed through, I made many observations regarding the role that Clefable played in balance, and I realized that Clefable itself isn't the problem, but rather offense itself.
There have been many relevant arguments regarding how much Dracovish constrains teambuilding in its own right, alongside behemoths such as Kyurem and Zeraora. Despite how we have lost Z-Moves and Megas going into Gen 8, we also lost a lot of defense in turn as well, and we gained a lot of unprecedented wallbreakers. Whether they're completely new or simply refurbished with new moves, it is without question that these Pokemon are a problem at their core. I addressed in this post here in more detail on how Clefable more or less was trying to act as a team captain trying to keep defensive Pokemon healthy to keep taking on these offensive threats. With this in mind, it's unsurprising that Wishport Clefable is so good in a meta where Pokemon can dismantle defensive threats that struggle to keep themselves healthy, especially with AT now gone.
If in the hypothetical case we banned Clefable, HO would undeniably break the metagame. If you play a defensive playstyle, you cripple yourself in the team builder, because with things like Zeraora and Kyurem around without the best thing in the game to keep checks healthy, the only way you'd be able to successfully best these threats is to bring them yourself. I feel I don't need to explain why this is a problem.
So your assertion that offense would take over is inaccurate. Breakers, just like defensive checks, have a lot to lose when/if wishport clef goes away.
Most definitely. I do agree that I did underplay Clefable's utility to offense as well, and I wish to mend that with this follow up post. Before I start, though, I want to make clear that most of my focus was put more on Dracovish being the issue itself as opposed to the hypothetical of what would happen if Clefable/Teleport is removed from the tier.
While it is very true that Clefable does allow offense to work a lot more aggressively, the main reason I focused more on defense in my post is because offense gets even more opportunities due to the metagame that Dracovish's existence enables. The defense level inherently decreases since we need to run specific things to check Vish, and combating offense becomes a lot harder when things like Seismitoad, Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and co. have to be used more frequently to handle them. Bear in mind that all of the listed Pokemon are complete Kyurem food given how they 1: usually need Physical investment just to better handle Dracovish 2: are mostly Water types and will die to Freeze Dry. I definitely agree that Wishport Clefable gives offensive Pokemon many more opportunities to be aggressive, though I feel this only exacerbates the problem that comes from Dracovish's influence by only making offense harder to combat.
But, it needs to be said that just as Clefable enables more offense, Clefable also enables more defense. Even though Clefable helps to enable both sides of the spectrum, however, offense has such an edge simply because the defensive metagame was forced to warp around itself just to not lose to Dracovish at team preview. I feel this isn't as much of an issue of Clefable being unhealthy more than it is Dracovish making the entire defensive metagame weak to other threats such as Kyurem and Zeraora, which prosper to a terrifying degree since the defensive metagame completely works in their favor, and even moreso with Clefable's help.
Though, regardless of what Clefable is able to help, there's still a giant imbalance and constraint in teambuilding in the tier, and the defensive metagame struggles to prosper since weaker, more Kyurem/Zeraora weak things need to be run just to not auto-lose to Dracovish.
Random Person #467
"I think Dracovish is unhealthy for x, y and z reasons"
Entire thread for weeks (months?) on end:
We do not need to suspect it. Please, save us some time on this one and just quickban, has there been a single real defense of it other than it kills Clef? There are suspect worthy things that could go either way but they are not Dracovish, whose ban seems all but inevitable should it go through the suspect process.
"I think Dracovish is unhealthy for x, y and z reasons"
Entire thread for weeks (months?) on end:
We do not need to suspect it. Please, save us some time on this one and just quickban, has there been a single real defense of it other than it kills Clef? There are suspect worthy things that could go either way but they are not Dracovish, whose ban seems all but inevitable should it go through the suspect process.
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