Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Iron Man

Status
Not open for further replies.
Melmetal is absolutely bonkers in this metagame honestly, which has been stated multiple times. You only really have the Rotom's as reliable "counters" but even then, especially in Heat's case - Mel can carry coverage to dent them hard. I've been using PhysDef Rotom-H, which has over applications as well - wisping Mel and hopefully limiting its impact. But is that truly healthy for the game? Where you have to hope to limit it or use a faster mon to revenge (perferrably a special attacker, as its phys bulk can swallow most physical attacks) it? I honestly say no.
 
Banded Melm 2HKO's defensive Toxapex with EQ.


Steel typing means it can't be worn down by toxic either. Rotom-H quad-resists DIB and Levitate provides immunity to EQ. Modest Rotom-H OHKO's banded variants with OH but doubles Showdown variants are dealt between 80-95% damage. WoW can be used to cripple it but burned banded Melm still OHKO's Rotom-H with Superpower after stealth rock damage.
This is for banded Melm vs pivot modest Rotom-H
View attachment 234968
252+ SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 278-330 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Melmetal Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 182-216 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I don't think Modest Rotom is a thing but anyway... Yeah, nice check there.
I think this is something I need to point out: You get far more special bulk on Melmetal by putting its bulk into Spd rather than HP. It also improves the amount it heals by Wish passing. Melmetal's physical bulk is more than acceptable enough uninvested, eg:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 288-338 (70 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 298-352 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 270-318 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 16 HP / 16 Def Melmetal: 328-388 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (yep, that tiny investment does the job).
So... Yeah. Put the EVs into Spd.
 
252+ SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 278-330 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Melmetal Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 182-216 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I don't think Modest Rotom is a thing but anyway... Yeah, nice check there.
I think this is something I need to point out: You get far more special bulk on Melmetal by putting its bulk into Spd rather than HP. It also improves the amount it heals by Wish passing. Melmetal's physical bulk is more than acceptable enough uninvested, eg:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 288-338 (70 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 298-352 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 270-318 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 16 HP / 16 Def Melmetal: 328-388 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (yep, that tiny investment does the job).
So... Yeah. Put the EVs into Spd.
I think that that is band melm, not AV.
 
252+ SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 278-330 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Melmetal Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 182-216 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I don't think Modest Rotom is a thing but anyway... Yeah, nice check there.
I think this is something I need to point out: You get far more special bulk on Melmetal by putting its bulk into Spd rather than HP. It also improves the amount it heals by Wish passing. Melmetal's physical bulk is more than acceptable enough uninvested, eg:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 288-338 (70 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 298-352 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 270-318 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 16 HP / 16 Def Melmetal: 328-388 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (yep, that tiny investment does the job).
So... Yeah. Put the EVs into Spd.
It still takes prediction on the Melmetal player's end to click rock slide against Rotom-H on the switch in - as otherwise, Rotom will win out due to outspeeding, althp overheat's SpA drop must be accounted for. PS: Rotom-H always runs Heavy Duty boots, so Rocks aren't a Factor in this (unless knocked off). Rotom can also wisp Melmetal to cripple it.
 
It still takes prediction on the Melmetal player's end to click rock slide against Rotom-H on the switch in - as otherwise, Rotom will win out due to outspeeding, althp overheat's SpA drop must be accounted for. PS: Rotom-H always runs Heavy Duty boots, so Rocks aren't a Factor in this (unless knocked off). Rotom can also wisp Melmetal to cripple it.
Not to mention if that melmetal carries rock slide over T Punch or Superpower.
 
There are so many arguments regarding Melmetal's power and while I completely agree with those points, I do feel that a way to beat it is by exploiting its horrendous SpDef stats.

Melmetal was quickbanned because of the fact that there wasn't a consistent answer on the defensive side to it. Toxapex? Just give it a Thunder Punch or EQ.

Corvi? You're gonna need Bulk Up to stand a chance at banded Mel. Clef? ....

The issue with trying to bring a Special Attacker into the fray since almost EVERYTHING dies to it. Dragapult. GONE. Hydreigon. GONE. Hatterene and Clef? GONE.

I find that currently, the best answer to this metal beast is Rotom-Heat. It's so good for a check and actually provides some insane damage. 8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 420-494 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO and this is with NO boosts.

It's ability to dominate the meta with one of the best attack stats we have ever seen is nuts (no pun intended), and it is broken, but if you look at Ubers and the ENDLESS answers they have up there, putting Mel there won't be necessary. I personally think Mel should come back but it is us as a community to decide what we should keep.
 
Something I've seen surprisingly discussion of is the danger of the multiple sets it can run, because while a corvinight could stall a banded melmetal out of tpunches, or a ferro could chip it heavily, and a clef can easily scout its move and waste PP, Spedef Acid Armor Body Press Melmetal beats all 3 of these sets. You need a completely different set of pokemon to deal with this set, and you have to play very carefully until you know what set it is.

+6 0 Def Melmetal Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 218-257 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Can't be roosted on obviously)

0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Melmetal: 414-490 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO

+6 0 Def Melmetal Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 374-440 (106.2 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not to mention if that melmetal carries rock slide over T Punch or Superpower.
also I would advice you drop EQ for rock slide, not tpunch or superpower, EQ is the least important coverage move, as tpunch hits pex almost as hard, and aegislash takes an obscene amount from double iron bash

Corvi? You're gonna need Bulk Up to stand a chance at banded Mel. Clef? ....
Due to roost losing your flying type, corv being faster, and pressure, standard defog corvs semi-reliably counter melmetal, unless you get paralyzed
 
Melmetal is really good, thats for sure. You dont need to look at any calcs to figure out that a mon with such heavy physical bulk and varied movepool is going to sit at the top of the foodchain in the tier. That said, I think it fits just right in the tier as it is right now. While not many people I've discussed this with seem to agree, I think its offensive capabilities are not powerful enough for it to be problematic, but just strong enough to cause an impact in the tier, evidently not the most welcomed one but one that I think will help the current state of the meta.

Melmetal does one thing I think everyone can appreciate: punish TeleWish Clef Balance. Aside from Aegislash, theres not many mons in the meta that can hit Clef hard enough to where it cant succesfully pass Wish with Teleport to its teammates, which is one of the primary reasons this strategy has risen to the top of the metagame, to the point where not having your own Wish passing Clef puts u at a direct disadvantage against a team with it. Because of this, one of the prime switch-in opportunities for Melmetal is a Wishing Clef. I've seen and went through this sequence dozens of times on the suspect ladder and it also leads to one of Melmetal's flaws: Protect. Choice Band is the most popular set atm, although people briefly experiemented with Sub Acid Armor prior to the original ban and Assault Vest/bulkier AoA sets are seen sometimes. While the Clef user suddenly loses all momentum in the face of a Melmetal, Protect can usually scout the most dangerous set. Whenever Melmetal doesnt turn out to be choiced, it lacks the immediate power to force a kill through the sturdier defensive core that are very popular atm. Defensive backbones consisting of Clefable, Corviknight, Toxapex, Hippowdon, Seismitoad, Rotom-H, Ferrothorn, etc all have the tools to play around choiced sets and the sturdiness to withstand correctly predicted attacks coming from a non choiced set. A number of recent metagame trends including the rise of helm Hippo, Pain Split being a staple of Rotom-H, plenty of Ferrothorn, etc are quite punishing for Melmetal and with Wish Clefable being omnipresent, I think Melmetal has just the right power to force a kill when conditioned correctly but is not overpowered to the point where it can dismantle these cores at any moment without giving them the chance to recover.

Against more offensive teams, the biggest gripe most people have with Melmetal is just how bulky it is. It's nearly impossible to OHKO with a physical move, which often allows it to at least trade with an offensive threat. I think its physical bulk is easily one of its most oppressive traits for this reason, but I also think offensive teams are well equiped to handle this threat. The staple pivots (Clef, Corv, Toad, Kommo-o) all have different ways to prevent it from coming in for free: Clef can Teleport out for momentum, Corv clicks U-Turn more often than not, Toad is Toad, Kommo-o threatens to hit it with Body Press on the switch and win 1 on 1. I think on practice, Melmetal's impact in this matchup comes down to its ability to succesfully switch in (either after a KO or VoltTurn support) and make the right trade. It's definitely easier for it to get out of hand when you don't have the defensive backbone to hold it back or the offensive tools to take it down in 1 hit but mons like Rotom-H, Dragapult, Chandelure, Specs Kyurem, the increasingly popular CC Conk, etc are usually enough to keep it at bay and make progress themselves. Speaking of Kyurem, another great aspect about Melmetal is the addition of an offensive Ice resist to the tier. Prior to Melmetal the only mon that could really switch into an Ice Beam and pose a threat of its own was Aegislash. With the right set and spread, Melmetal can turn the tables against one of the most powerful breakers in the tier which is great for bulky offense teams that cant afford the sturdiest Ice resists that would drain momentum.

There's a lot more I could talk about but I think this about sums up my thoughts, I think Melmetal would be a great addition and in all honesty the tier can only get so much worse than it is rn anyway, free Melmetal

Going to be honest, I've been fairly quiet because honestly I just don't really like this game anymore but I’m not gonna sit here idly by and let this shit pass. You've already conceded on its massive bulk, which is absolutely ridiculous and made for a more kid-friendly version of a kids' game, but failed and just severely played down its offensive capabilities. And since neither you nor anyone else in this thread brought up hard numbers, I will.

Melmetal at 135/143/143/80/65/30 has some of the largest Hp, attack, def, and hardest hitting steel type move in the entire game. Its steel type paired with its massive hp makes it very sturdy on both sides defensive even with the low spdef (which can easily be taken care with the AV). Not to mention it's steel type move - Double Iron Bash - hits twice, is essentially a base 120 attack off of base 143 attack stat, and can straight up oko through resisted hits absolutely for free and just kill neutrally for no reason whatsoever. Even if you hit this super effectively, shit is incredibly stupid to kill as it will live absurd hits and can oko you back with almost 0 attack invested allowing for some VERY interesting sets to be made, and I’m very aware that you know this.

Flygon(was at +2 btw ) used Earthquake!
It's super effective!
(The opposing Melmetal lost 84% of its health!)
The opposing Melmetal used Double Iron Bash!
(Flygon lost 88.0% of its health!)
(Flygon lost 12.0% of its health!)
The Pokémon was hit 2 times!
Flygon fainted!

I don't understand how you don't see it as problematic given that it hits everything it needs to and extremely hard. your only caveat was that it punishes clef wish tele but to my understanding is not warranting to bring a broken mon down from ubers. having this on your team will make you have to bring said mons that you mentioned and keep them alive at all costs just to not trade or lose. I think you also downplayed that depending on the set, it's very hard to take this out specially as well, as that can and do run spdef since their hp and def are already sky-high and can just stall out with rest if need be. Shit is honestly ridiculous. Essentially what you are saying is that because you hate clef , aegi, and kyrurem, we should allow this joke of pokemon to be brought down and for what? For it to have one of the hardest hits and highest bulks in the game? I cannot believe we are doing this; making it so that every team is going to look the exact same just to deal with this fucked up metagame we have is atrociously evil and I’m serious. Keep this out of here.

inb4 some try hard is like 'blah blah but I wanna run melmetal + dracovish + galarian darm offense blah blah '
 
Last edited:
While Melmetal's stats may look terrifying at first I believe he's not only not broken, he's healthy for the metagame. Even though it's certainly an amazingly powerful mon, I dont believe hes even close to being too much for OU.

Firstly and perhaps more obviously, Melmetan is a safe check/counter to TP Clefable which is arguably the most cancer mon in the tier. Being able to safely bring in something vs. Clef enables a builder to craft a team that leans towards the offensive side, rather than what we have seen lately, which is just a shitfest of fat blobs. Not only that, the addition of Melmetal to the tier gives offense the chance to take 1 hit from prominent physical attackers like Scarf Vish in rain, plus 2 Bisharp, Zeraora, etc...

Melmetal also has a rough time getting through common bulky Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Corvi, Rotom, Seismi, the list goes on... You guys are treating Melmetal like it has the offensive capabilites Landorus-I. Moreover, the meta will undoubtedly adapt to Melm's unban. Perhaps Clef's ideal set is going to change to the LO variant, rather than TP, Ferros/Hippos are gonna run rocky helmet, Seismitoads are starting to run Earth Power, there are ways around the mon, you just have to look for them.

Offense has ways around it, balance has ways around it, the mon is simply not as powerful as other ban worthy mons.

It's not as cancerous and restrictive as Duggy.

Its not NEARLY the offensive threat that Darm was.

Its not even close to being as centralizing as Aegi in other gens. At least from anecdotal experience, Clefable is still being used as much, if not more than before.

While I do believe that Melm is gonna be a top tier threat, I just dont think it reaches that point where its actually broken.
 
Idk why anyone would question the decision to retest, this was outlined quite clearly at the time of the quickban and underscored by Melmetal's numerous flaws. Despite these flaws, the spammability of Double Iron Bash along with the absurd difficulty of KO'ing Melmetal in return by any of its defensive "answers" make it far too much for the OU tier. The argument that it breaks up the stale balance cores is totally irrelevant since those cores are introduced to combat other potentially centralizing elements of the tier. Something that disrupts those cores by simply overwhelming every defensive core is not healthy for the metagame. Offensive teams have to play extremely aggressively because in most cases every one of their members will drop to DIB clean through focus sash and frail resists.
 
Firstly and perhaps more obviously, Melmetan is a safe check/counter to TP Clefable which is arguably the most cancer mon in the tier. Being able to safely bring in something vs. Clef enables a builder to craft a team that leans towards the offensive side, rather than what we have seen lately, which is just a shitfest of fat blobs.

Its not even close to being as centralizing as Aegi in other gens. At least from anecdotal experience, Clefable is still being used as much, if not more than before.
I hope I'm not the only one to notice the massive contradictions here. So Melm is good for being able to punish Clef, but at the same time Clef's usage is on the rise? Melm offers yet another chance for more offensive teams to break balance and take the meta in a more offensive direction, but Melm on Wish/Tele Clef balance is on the rise?
There's so many conflicting statements in this post and in this thread that I don't get it, what are peoples' motivations to keep this thing in OU? Is it to provide an offensive solution to Clef because Clef is such an overpowering figure? As if there aren't plenty in the game already (Aegislash, Gengar, Toxtricity, Bisharp, Excadrill, etc), we don't need another offensive solution to Clef, Clef is not an overwhelming problem that we need to stamp out by dropping things from Ubers, that alone will not fix the meta. So then is it to take the meta down a different direction from the typical stale Wish/Tele Clef formula that's all over the place at the moment and promote growth and creativity? That's a failure given that Melm fits perfectly on those exact same types of teams, this is why Clef's usage is on the rise. Neither of these can be used as worthwhile points to support Melm's return, Clef is more necessary than ever for its Teleport allowing Melm safe switch-ins which is ideal for it and also being able to pass Wishes to it. In fact:
Melmetal also has a rough time getting through common bulky Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Corvi, Rotom, Seismi, the list goes on...
Of those checks, Ferro, Rotom, and Seismi all require Wish support from Clef, so to use those checks against Melm you have to be running Clef too.
If overuse of Clef balance is the big problem in the meta, it's worth considering why that is more than just seeing Clef, determining Clef is bad, and trying to find more solutions to kill Clef because that will not work. theotherguytm made a good post in the metagame discussion thread where he pretty rightly pointed out that Clef is holding everything together right now ensuring that teams don't auto-lose to busted threats because the only things keeping them in check are things that can't live long without the Wish support. This meta is fat shit vs busted hard-hitters and re-introducing one of the latter will not fix that, it'll just continue to worsen the issue as is being demonstrated right now. Clef balance is still on the rise, certain defensive mons went from being good to virtually necessary, and fire coverage where possible is now mandatory, that all sound pretty centralising if you ask me and unless the meta takes an unexpected turn in a good direction in these two weeks there really should be no grounds to accept Melm as a positive figure in it.
 
Last edited:

ausma

Take your time
is a Site Content Manageris an Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Aside from Leo's fantastic post, I haven't really seen any good arguments regarding pro-unban, and, honestly, I'm kind of annoyed with that at this point given how my games as of this suspect have helped to mold my opinion toward what seems to be pretty unpopular. Right out the gate, I believe Melmetal is not only worthy of an unban, but also is a healthy addition to the tier.

To begin my contention, I would like to address a very noteworthy metagame trend that many posters here are discussing: the rise of Clef balance. It's undeniable that, at the moment, we are seeing an extremely great rise in Wishport Clefable, which is holding a lot of defensive cores together in this meta against some really brutal hard hitters. Wishpassing to Pokemon that can't recovery reliably such as Ferrothorn, Seismitoad, and Kommo-O is a boon for their defensive utility, and obviously, this has become the wave in our current metagame as a way to combat the terrifying offensive cores created by things like Zeraora, Terrakion, Dracovish, and Kyurem. However, there is something about these hard hitters, and with Clefable's role in the tier that I can't help but notice: Clefable is trying to check almost everything. It is the de facto check to Dragon spam, it is able to stomach Terrakion/Zeraora to a degree, act as a defensive barricade, but most importantly it is trying to keep defensive cores healthy. It's because of this that Clefable's role in the tier is centralizing to a degree where you will see it doing almost everything at any time (It's almost at 50% usage, for fuck's sake). However, the thing is, I don't believe this is Clefable's fault in of itself, but rather the consequence of how easy it is to wear things down. In other words, it is the lead defender of the horde of zombies that is HO and offensive cores.

This all being said, my contention in Melmetal's favor now comes into play.

It seems strange that I prelude my argument with the fact that Clefable needs to be in the tier to check heavy hitters, especially because of how Melmetal seems to only make this worse. It pries Clefable apart and opens the road for offense to clean house, and while this is true, I actually believe its effect will actually help better check these heavy-hitters much more than it will help them, while not completely shafting offense.

Let's first dissect Melmetal itself. What exactly is it bringing to the table against the metagame?

As we know, Melmetal has base 135 HP and Base 143 Defense, all backed by a pure Steel typing. This is pretty great, and these calcs support it. It also has base 143 attack, and one of the best offensive moves in the game to back it.

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 261-307 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 260-306 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 288-338 (60.7 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 314-372 (66.2 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, you shouldn't be leaving it in on these types of attacks without a reason, but given how casual these moves are for these hitters, the fact Melmetal has the potential to stomach these hits is an absolute boon for balance. Not only is it able to soak these hits, but its even able to punish its attackers back with great effect, much unlike the other walls that are prevalent in the tier. This sounds overcentralizing on paper, however, despite how unbelievably bulky it is, I honestly believe that its bulk is overrated. Bear in mind that it isn't able to recover outside of Wishport Clefable's help, meaning that if Melmetal takes hits like these and consequentially punishes the opposition for trying to be too aggressive without much of a gameplan, you are forced to fold some momentum to bring it back. However, even then, with its gargantuan HP stat, you don't heal very much from it.

Here are some calcs of hits it struggles to take outright, and these are all physical.

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 390-460 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (dies if rain is up)
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 572-674 (120.6 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 346-408 (72.9 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This seems all pretty impressive on paper, but given that it's abysmally slow, it isn't able to switch in on any of these attacks without having to take another. In fact, its speed is a giant, giant problem for it. It has to always take some kind of punishment, and it absolutely hates getting burned by things like Weezing (preferably normal), Rotom-A, or Incineroar, the latter two of which are phenomenal checks to it.

None of this is even accounting for the special end, where with even an Assault Vest, it faces an extremely tough time. Nasty Plot Rotom-Heat is a staple set, and Melmetal gets melted by it. With some chip (which Melmetal is definitely taking, especially with spike stacking), Kyurem's Earth Power can blow it back as well, even moreso against its best set.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 418-494 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 420-494 (88.6 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

So, where am I going with this? To keep it short, I believe that Melmetal is a good check to the centralization of Wishport Clefable, but also a good, yet not centralizing check to the offense that it can beat. As stated before, Wishport Clefable is forced to hold the defensive metagame together, and nobody can really blame it. It has to with how prevalent these offensive threats are, and Melmetal is a strong, yet not broken check that gives Clefable more breathing room. Clefable doesn't need to be as much of a crutch to balance and keep everything healthy at every second, and Melmetal is able to not only take a hit, but punish thoughtless offense all the same. It allows for balance and defense to take different approaches to handling certain threats that they normally can't because of things like Zeraora, such as the menacing Specs Kyurem or Hex Pult. This is why I believe Melmetal promotes diversity as well: it creates for a more surefire check to offense, allowing for balance to take many more approaches in order to succeed, while still having pretty consistent checks that are already commonplace in the tier. That's what balance is. It's not meant to be a one trick pony like it's been forced to be with Wishport Clefable being such a necessity on it. Of course, with the nature of Wishport Clefable and how much it supports Melmetal as well, it's going to remain a big part of balance, but the idea is that it frees up team slots in order to allow more diversity, which greatly helps the metagame.

However, I already know one huge counterpoint regarding Melmetal's presence in the tier: its offensive potential. This is extremely true, and I'm not here to argue that it isn't a big threat offensively. However, again, I believe to a degree this is overstated as well. We have things like Rocky Helmet, which is a giant way to punish and wear down DIB spamming Melmetals. I've been seeing abusers like Ferrothorn and Slack Off Hippowdon sets (the latter of which naturally outspeeds Melmetal) that are surprisingly solid checks to its offensive variants, and I've been using Rocky Helmet Corviknight to a similar effect, which utilizes Pressure to wear down DIB's PP even faster. I mentioned how easy it is to burn it as well, and, as Leo suggested, Protect is amazing against it especially. I just haven't had that hard of a time checking Melmetal defensively, and like any threat in the metagame, adapting to its presence is a given. Things we know aren't broken but are great, like Corviknight, make an impact on the metagame, and we naturally have to prepare for them. I feel Melmetal is no different despite its strengths.

All in all, for these reasons, once I get reqs, I'm going to vote unban.
 
Last edited:
Aside from Leo's fantastic post, I haven't really seen any good arguments regarding pro-unban, and, honestly, I'm kind of annoyed with that at this point given how my games as of this suspect have helped to mold my opinion toward what seems to be pretty unpopular. Right out the gate, I believe Melmetal is not only worthy of an unban, but also is a healthy addition to the tier.

To begin my contention, I would like to address a very noteworthy metagame trend that many posters here are discussing: the rise of Clef balance. It's undeniable that, at the moment, we are seeing an extremely great rise in Wishport Clefable, which is holding a lot of defensive cores together in this meta against some really brutal hard hitters. Wishpassing to Pokemon that can't recovery reliably such as Ferrothorn, Seismitoad, and Kommo-O is a boon for their defensive utility, and obviously, this has become the wave in our current metagame as a way to combat the terrifying offensive cores created by things like Zeraora, Terrakion, Dracovish, and Kyurem. However, there is something about these hard hitters, and with Clefable's role in the tier that I can't help but notice: Clefable is trying to check almost everything. It is the de facto check to Dragon spam, it is able to stomach Terrakion/Zeraora to a degree, act as a defensive barricade, but most importantly it is trying to keep defensive cores healthy. It's because of this that Clefable's role in the tier is centralizing to a degree where you will see it doing almost everything at any time (It's almost at 50% usage, for fuck's sake). However, the thing is, I don't believe this is Clefable's fault in of itself, but rather the consequence of how easy it is to wear things down. In other words, it is the lead defender of the horde of zombies that is HO and offensive cores.

This all being said, my contention in Melmetal's favor now comes into play.

It seems strange that I prelude my argument with the fact that Clefable needs to be in the tier to check heavy hitters, especially because of how Melmetal seems to only make this worse. It pries Clefable apart and opens the road for offense to clean house, and while this is true, I actually believe its effect will actually help better check these heavy-hitters much more than it will help them, while not completely shafting offense.

Let's first dissect Melmetal itself. What exactly is it bringing to the table against the metagame?

As we know, Melmetal has base 135 HP and Base 143 Defense, all backed by a pure Steel typing. This is pretty great, and these calcs support it. It also has base 143 attack, and one of the best offensive moves in the game to back it.

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 261-307 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 260-306 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 288-338 (60.7 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 314-372 (66.2 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, you shouldn't be leaving it in on these types of attacks without a reason, but given how casual these moves are for these hitters, the fact Melmetal has the potential to stomach these hits is an absolute boon for balance. Not only is it able to soak these hits, but its even able to punish its attackers back with great effect, much unlike the other walls that are prevalent in the tier. This sounds overcentralizing on paper, however, despite how unbelievably bulky it is, I honestly believe that its bulk is overrated. Bear in mind that it isn't able to recover outside of Wishport Clefable's help, meaning that if Melmetal takes hits like these and consequentially punishes the opposition for trying to be too aggressive without much of a gameplan, you are forced to fold some momentum to bring it back. However, even then, with its gargantuan HP stat, you don't heal very much from it.

Here are some calcs of hits it struggles to take outright, and these are all physical.

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 390-460 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (dies if rain is up)
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 572-674 (120.6 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 346-408 (72.9 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This seems all pretty impressive on paper, but given that it's abysmally slow, it isn't able to switch in on any of these attacks without having to take another. In fact, its speed is a giant, giant problem for it. It has to always take some kind of punishment, and it absolutely hates getting burned by things like Weezing (preferably normal), Rotom-A, or Incineroar, the latter two of which are phenomenal checks to it.

None of this is even accounting for the special end, where with even an Assault Vest, it faces an extremely tough time. Nasty Plot Rotom-Heat is a staple set, and Melmetal gets melted by it. With some chip (which Melmetal is definitely taking, especially with spike stacking), Kyurem's Earth Power can blow it back as well, even moreso against its best set.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 418-494 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 420-494 (88.6 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

So, where am I going with this? To keep it short, I believe that Melmetal is a good check to the centralization of Wishport Clefable, but also a good, yet not centralizing check to the offense that it can beat. As stated before, Wishport Clefable is forced to hold the defensive metagame together, and nobody can really blame it. It has to with how prevalent these offensive threats are, and Melmetal is a strong, yet not broken check that gives Clefable more breathing room. Clefable doesn't need to be as much of a crutch to balance and keep everything healthy at every second, and Melmetal is able to not only take a hit, but punish thoughtless offense all the same. It allows for balance and defense to take different approaches to handling certain threats that they normally can't because of things like Zeraora, such as the menacing Specs Kyurem or Hex Pult. This is why I believe Melmetal promotes diversity as well: it creates for a more surefire check to offense, allowing for balance to take many more approaches in order to succeed, while still having pretty consistent checks that are already commonplace in the tier. That's what balance is. It's not meant to be a one trick pony like it's been forced to be with Wishport Clefable being such a necessity on it. Of course, with the nature of Wishport Clefable and how much it supports Melmetal as well, it's going to remain a big part of balance, but the idea is that it frees up team slots in order to allow more diversity, which greatly helps the metagame.

However, I already know one huge counterpoint regarding Melmetal's presence in the tier: its offensive potential. This is extremely true, and I'm not here to argue that it isn't a big threat offensively. However, again, I believe to a degree this is overstated as well. We have things like Rocky Helmet, which is a giant way to punish and wear down DIB spamming Melmetals. I've been seeing abusers like Ferrothorn and Slack Off Hippowdon sets (the latter of which naturally outspeeds Melmetal) that are surprisingly solid checks to its offensive variants, and I've been using Rocky Helmet Corviknight to a similar effect, which utilizes Pressure to wear down DIB's PP even faster. I mentioned how easy it is to burn it as well, and, as Leo suggested, Protect is amazing against it especially. I just haven't had that hard of a time checking Melmetal defensively, and like any threat in the metagame, adapting to its presence is a given. Things we know aren't broken but are great, like Corviknight, make an impact on the metagame, and we naturally have to prepare for them. I feel Melmetal is no different despite its strengths.

All in all, for these reasons, once I get reqs, I'm going to vote unban.
You fail to acknowledge the fact that wishport clefable can sustain melmetal and thanks to its fantastic bulk it's even harder to punish a switch-in to heal it up. Not only that, but your whole argument is allowing a broken pokemon to decentralize the meta (I also dislike the current one, so I kind of understand where you are coming from) and subsequently make it centralize around melmetal since it's such an absurd powerhouse that it will warp everything around itself. How is this healthy? Also using corviknight to pp stall iron bash is incredibly risky given the fact that it's 2hko'd by tpunch
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 242-286 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and will eventually lead to your paralisis if you stay in to pp stall tpunch (not like it's a viable option anyway).
 

ausma

Take your time
is a Site Content Manageris an Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
You fail to acknowledge the fact that wishport clefable can sustain melmetal and thanks to its fantastic bulk it's even harder to punish a switch-in to heal it up.
Bear in mind that it isn't able to recover outside of Wishport Clefable's help, meaning that if Melmetal takes hits like these and consequentially punishes the opposition for trying to be too aggressive without much of a gameplan, you are forced to fold some momentum to bring it back. However, even then, with its gargantuan HP stat, you don't heal very much from it.
Of course, with the nature of Wishport Clefable and how much it supports Melmetal as well, it's going to remain a big part of balance
Yeah sorry, you're right. I didn't mention Wishport Clef helping Melmetal at all, my bad.

Not only that, but your whole argument is allowing a broken pokemon to decentralize the meta (I also dislike the current one, so I kind of understand where you are coming from) and subsequently make it centralize around melmetal since it's such an absurd powerhouse that it will warp everything around itself.
I've explained in my post numerous times how Melmetal wouldn't centralize everything around itself. It has so many natural checks and weaknesses that it needs team support (heavily through Clefable and other defensive checks) in order to fully utilize its gargantuan offenses, and even with Clefable's help, it still is taking pretty considerable punishment through either soaking a Wisp or direct damage due to its atrocious speed and subpar natural special bulk. It either has to trade off the sheer power of a Banded set, leaving it more vulnerable to its defensive checks, or trade off the special bulk provided by AV and the ability to switch moves, which makes it much easier to play around, especially with the utility of Protect.

You are correct about Corviknight losing to Banded Thunder Punch, but if it's banded, Corviknight can pretty effectively play around it due to the move lock. Against AV, the matchup becomes much more annoying, as Corviknight can outheal Thunder Punch's damage output and deal Rocky Helmet damage in the process. Additionally, with its AV set, it pretty consistently loses the Hippo and Seismitoad matchups. I haven't even mentioned Toxapex either, which is effective against AV, and is an ok neutral switchin against Banded sets, especially with the rising Baneful Bunker. That being said, though, it's not very good, as it loses Recover PP in the matchup, but it can be a good pivot into something like Hydreigon or Kyurem (Ferrothorn is much better at this, but Toxapex is an option). Funnily enough, it naturally outspeeds the thing, too. This comes back to its speed as well; most defensive checks can naturally outspeed it and heal on it without having to take another hit, forcing Melmetal to run speed if it wants a shot at outspeeding something, and in doing so, it partially compromises its bulk.

252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 162-192 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 180-212 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 120-142 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- approx. 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

There's a pretty considerable tradeoff with both of its sets, really. It kind of needs a Band to be more menacing, which leads to Melmetal being stuck into one move, which as a breaker, it hates a lot. Conversely, if it goes with AV, it loses out on beating most defensive archetypes.
 
You fail to acknowledge the fact that wishport clefable can sustain melmetal and thanks to its fantastic bulk it's even harder to punish a switch-in to heal it up. Not only that, but your whole argument is allowing a broken pokemon to decentralize the meta (I also dislike the current one, so I kind of understand where you are coming from) and subsequently make it centralize around melmetal since it's such an absurd powerhouse that it will warp everything around itself. How is this healthy? Also using corviknight to pp stall iron bash is incredibly risky given the fact that it's 2hko'd by tpunch
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 242-286 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and will eventually lead to your paralisis if you stay in to pp stall tpunch (not like it's a viable option anyway).
While I'm also more convinced by the anti-Melmetal posts, Ausma's is the only pro-Melmetal post that convinced me allowing Melmetal might have some merit, so I'm going to defend it. Ausma actually did acknowledge Melmetal's synergy with WishPort Clefable. The core of her argument was not about Melmetal's power, but rather its bulk. She argues that Melmetal provides more options for balance teams to beat offense. Because they can now use something as tanky and powerful as Melmetal, they don't need to rely on Clefable keeping everything healthy with Wish. Even if they still use both, Clefable isn't under nearly as much pressure, because Melmetal is more self-sufficient than Clef's usual Wish recipients.

And then she ninja'd me.
 
It has so many natural checks and weaknesses
I hate to be this type of person, but I have to massively disagree with this statement. Although yes it does have natural checks, a lot of these checks can't actually switch in on Banded Melmetal because of Double Iron Bash's raw power, meaning they either get KOed from full or with a tiny bit of chip damage or have to take a severe punch in the gut in the process and then not being able to retaliate back. There are only two pokemon that can truly keep Melmetal in check: Rotom-H and Seismitoad. This is already problematic enough. However, only 1 of them actually counters them not factoring teammates or chip damage in the process: Seismitoad. Even then, though, it's not like we have good pokemon out there that beat the shit out of Seismitoad (looking at you Hydreigon, and Kyurem), and those can be easily slapped alongside Melmetal.

When the only check to Melmetal is a pokemon like Seismitoad that we have easy-to-access and effective counters to, this is not good.
 
I don't understand this discussion at all or why it is getting suspected just because of a "promise". Like you quickbanned it because it was broken, it's still broken. All this thread is: "it is so broken" or "I like it, it beats Clef and loses to Rotom-H".

Okay, have a Rotom-H answer on your team. It honestly has no great counters other than that. Using screens and some support, its iron defense body press set is stupid. I like to run full Def instead of full SpDef just to have immediate power tanking physical threats and threatening body press after just 1 boost. You stay in on Excadrill and Conkeldurr, it's ridiculous.

Then other than Rotom-H there's no special threat that can come in and one shot you anyway, you're nearly guaranteed to be up in exchange against every team. That's the issue with this mon, there are a few answers but you should nearly always come out up in exchange using it. People acting like it's not broken because it's not Kyu-B that can literally 6-0 everything and has one counter need to realize a 2 for 1 mon is just as busted
 
Yeah sorry, you're right. I didn't mention Wishport Clef helping Melmetal at all, my bad.



I've explained in my post numerous times how Melmetal wouldn't centralize everything around itself. It has so many natural checks and weaknesses that it needs team support (heavily through Clefable and other defensive checks) in order to fully utilize its gargantuan offenses, and even with Clefable's help, it still is taking pretty considerable punishment through either soaking a Wisp or direct damage due to its atrocious speed and subpar natural special bulk. It either has to trade off the sheer power of a Banded set, leaving it more vulnerable to its defensive checks, or trade off the special bulk provided by AV and the ability to switch moves, which makes it much easier to play around, especially with the utility of Protect.

You are correct about Corviknight losing to Banded Thunder Punch, but if it's banded, Corviknight can pretty effectively play around it due to the move lock. Against AV, the matchup becomes much more annoying, as Corviknight can outheal Thunder Punch's damage output and deal Rocky Helmet damage in the process. Additionally, with its AV set, it pretty consistently loses the Hippo and Seismitoad matchups. I haven't even mentioned Toxapex either, which is effective against AV, and is an ok neutral switchin against Banded sets, especially with the rising Baneful Bunker. That being said, though, it's not very good, as it loses Recover PP in the matchup, but it can be a good pivot into something like Hydreigon or Kyurem (Ferrothorn is much better at this, but Toxapex is an option). Funnily enough, it naturally outspeeds the thing, too. This comes back to its speed as well; most defensive checks can naturally outspeed it and heal on it without having to take another hit, forcing Melmetal to run speed if it wants a shot at outspeeding something, and in doing so, it partially compromises its bulk.

252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 162-192 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 180-212 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 120-142 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- approx. 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

There's a pretty considerable tradeoff with both of its sets, really. It kind of needs a Band to be more menacing, which leads to Melmetal being stuck into one move, which as a breaker, it hates a lot. Conversely, if it goes with AV, it loses out on beating most defensive archetypes.
You are right about wishport clefable, my bad on that one. I still disagree with the notion that it will not warp everything around itself. I don't think it has that many good checks either. or checks that would be good in the hypothetical new meta.
 

p2

Banned deucer.

used ^ the entire way laddering, pretty common sand team with a couple twists on it

- Melmetal is very underwhelming in this meta, sky high usage of Hippowdon along with the usual common mons that either passively or directly pressure it (Pex, Ferro, Rotom-H, Exca, Terrak, Conk, Aegi)
- Main reason it was so effective in the Kyu-B meta would probably be due to how offensive it was, Mel crushed HO and forced a trade vs literally everything on offense, for example LO Terrak cannot even OHKO with CC. When every second team is offense this thing has a proper field day
- The meta is obviously very different now, Helmet Hippo is a staple on a lot of fatter teams now, but I chose to run helmet on Hippo and Ferro, Helmet Ferro ruins Mel and helps out a bit with annoying ass Dracovish.

I hardly ran into any Mels on the ladder which is very annoying, I easily ran into less than 10 out of 40 games but every time I did it was pretty underwhelming, but the team I used is quite naturally prepared for it. I don't think bringing Mel back is going to affect the meta much, Clef balance teams still thrive in this meta. A positive to note though is that it does affect Kyurem, Mel can punish Kyurem pretty hard but what's stopping switch into a Helmet mon or something? Mel also doesn't reduce the freeze chance aha

Sounds contradictory, but I think Mel will have an unneeded knock-on effect in diminishing the viability of offense in the tier. Something to think about, I still don't know what I'm voting
 

used ^ the entire way laddering, pretty common sand team with a couple twists on it

- Melmetal is very underwhelming in this meta, sky high usage of Hippowdon along with the usual common mons that either passively or directly pressure it (Pex, Ferro, Rotom-H, Exca, Terrak, Conk, Aegi)
- Main reason it was so effective in the Kyu-B meta would probably be due to how offensive it was, Mel crushed HO and forced a trade vs literally everything on offense, for example LO Terrak cannot even OHKO with CC. When every second team is offense this thing has a proper field day
- The meta is obviously very different now, Helmet Hippo is a staple on a lot of fatter teams now, but I chose to run helmet on Hippo and Ferro, Helmet Ferro ruins Mel and helps out a bit with annoying ass Dracovish.

I hardly ran into any Mels on the ladder which is very annoying, I easily ran into less than 10 out of 40 games but every time I did it was pretty underwhelming, but the team I used is quite naturally prepared for it. I don't think bringing Mel back is going to affect the meta much, Clef balance teams still thrive in this meta. A positive to note though is that it does affect Kyurem, Mel can punish Kyurem pretty hard but what's stopping switch into a Helmet mon or something? Mel also doesn't reduce the freeze chance aha

Sounds contradictory, but I think Mel will have an unneeded knock-on effect in diminishing the viability of offense in the tier. Something to think about, I still don't know what I'm voting
"Melmetal is very underwhelming in this meta" ...
  • "I hardly ran into any Mels on the ladder"
  • Main strategy to beat Melmetal is to sack Ferrothorn martyrdom style with helmet
  • *checks team* team has 3 dedicated checks to Melmetal (Hippo, Ferro, Rotom) and 2 pokemon Melmetal won't want to switch into (Exca/Terrak)
Glad to know that even the most prepared teams (which will all be hyper offense in nature) just handle Melmetal by sacrificing at least one pokemon

Btw your team gets bopped by Dracovish
 

Leo

after hours
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
"Melmetal is very underwhelming in this meta" ...
  • "I hardly ran into any Mels on the ladder"
  • Main strategy to beat Melmetal is to sack Ferrothorn martyrdom style with helmet
  • *checks team* team has 3 dedicated checks to Melmetal (Hippo, Ferro, Rotom) and 2 pokemon Melmetal won't want to switch into (Exca/Terrak)
Glad to know that even the most prepared teams (which will all be hyper offense in nature) just handle Melmetal by sacrificing at least one pokemon

Btw your team gets bopped by Dracovish
The fact that you’re looking at one of the most standard lineups for “new” meta hippo ferro rotom bulky offense thats becoming increasingly popular in tournament play and attributing its good matchup against Melmetal to having a milliard of checks and counterplay, including top tier threats it doesn’t want to come into, says a lot about the place Melmetal has in the current meta
 

p2

Banned deucer.
That team was made well before Mel even dropped and I find it very consistent in the tier regardless of whether Mel is here or not

I don't understand the point of your post, are you telling me my team is bad because I figured out how to adapt to a new threat? Ferro hardly gets sacked, it takes a heavy hit yeah, but it provides you with options. 1. Push your momentum since if Mel attacks again it dies (option of Leech, Spikes or Knock) 2. Switch out if you really need Ferro that desperately, either to Rotom or Hippo 3. Fuck it sack Ferro, if I don't need a water resist then sure it can go.

Glad to know that even the most prepared teams (which will all be hyper offense in nature) just handle Melmetal by sacrificing at least one pokemon
This is false, balance still thrives as one of the strongest team styles in this meta, I already addressed this but Mels presence hurts offense more than benefiting it.

Btw your team gets bopped by Dracovish
I ALSO addressed this. If you are going to throw about mindless criticism and sit there theorymonning, then don't bother posting lol, simple as. Yes it is weak to Vish but not once did I ever think "holy shit I autolose to this thing"
 
The fact that you’re looking at one of the most standard lineups for “new” meta hippo ferro rotom bulky offense thats becoming increasingly popular in tournament play and attributing its good matchup against Melmetal to having a milliard of checks and counterplay, including top tier threats it doesn’t want to come into, says a lot about the place Melmetal has in the current meta
A pokemon doesn't need to 6-0 a team to be broken. This thing has 30 base speed for crying out loud, it's impossible for it to sweep teams. In this "good matchup" you're sacking Ferrothorn to handle Melmetal. Hippo is cleanly 2HKO'd and cannot KO back. Rotom-H can switch in twice (assuming DIB), but cannot KO it back.

What's your definition of a check? I'd like to know the "milliard" of them and how they survive DIB. Calcs please

If your idea of counterplay is to sack a pokemon and move on, then I believe there are a few more Uber pokemon we should retest!

Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn is probably your best bet to keep Metal in "check". Worst case you run into a correctly predicted CB Superpower and it's still a 2HKO, but you take out 50% of Metal's health. From there it'll be in KO range of a lot of things that outspeed it (Toed, flamethrower clefable, etc). Pair it with a rotom-H, hippo, corviknight and boom. Do you have it contained with adequate counterplay? Yes. Is it still broken? Yes. They aren't mutually exclusive.

This is a minor point but I dislike using the term "standard lineups". Every team in this meta is standard because the meta is overcentralized around centralizing offensive threats. With Melmetal legal, every team will look even more the same! Corvi, ferro, rotom-h for all!

I don't understand the point of your post, are you telling me my team is bad because I figured out how to adapt to a new threat? Ferro hardly gets sacked, it takes a heavy hit yeah, but it provides you with options. 1. Push your momentum since if Mel attacks again it dies (option of Leech, Spikes or Knock) 2. Switch out if you really need Ferro that desperately, either to Rotom or Hippo 3. Fuck it sack Ferro, if I don't need a water resist then sure it can go.
No not at all, I am not saying your team is bad. I just dislike your argument of "I handled it well" for multiple reasons.

Broken pokemon don't make more people lose; the same number of people will be winning and those that "adapt" will win. It's not an argument against something broken. A skilled battler and teambuilder can do well even if we release Kyogre to OU

We can release Mewtwo to OU and there will still be counterplay. Dynamax has counterplay. Both are broken.

In order to you run your "options", you by definition need minimum ~3 checks to Melmetal since you want the ability to switch out if needed. Do you have issue with teams needing ~3 "checks" to have satisfactory counterplay against Metal? Also, prediction works both ways.

You may say a lot of the options to "check" Melmetal are "standard", like ferro/corvi/rotom-h. True, do you want to further centralize the game around them?
 
Last edited:
Who in their right mind thought this would be okay in OU it was oppressive before the AT ban and now it's even worse.

Anyway, Melmetal. If this thing doesn't get banned I think we all know it will comfortably rest very high on the VR. It is very oppressive and there are no consistent defensive options due to it's sheer coverage and power. This thing does seem like it won't get unbanned unless nintendo blesses us with heatran.

I'd like to address the Dracovish argument. There are many differences between these two that make melmetal significantly better.

1. Typing and stats:
While stats do not always make or break a pokemon, Melmetal has the ability to deal more damage and is more physically bulky than Dracovish, while Dracovish only excels in speed. Melmetal survives much more than the frail Dracovish, which more often than not dies in one hit. Also, Melmetal has a much better typing due to Clefable running rampant, as well as Dragapult.

2. Coverage:
Melmetal has good coverage which allows it to OHKO most "defensive answers" to it (the standouts being heat and wash). Meanwhile, dracovish's "coverage" does almost no damage whatsoever, and is honestly terrible. Not to mention that while Melmetal has Assault Vest options that still deal respectable damage while not requiring a switch (and boosting Sp. def), but Dracovish only has metronome has no viable options.(No, metronome is not okay on dracovish. Don't)

3. Counters and Checks:
Dracovish is oppressive, but has a lot of lost matchups. First, the tried-and-true immunities (Seismitoad, Gastrodon), the bulky resists (Ferrothorn, Toxapex), the outspeed OHKOers (Dragapult, Zeraora), and the sash setup sweepers (Excadrill, Cloyster). In other words, it is far from uncounterable. Melmetal on the other hand does so much damage with CB and potential iron fist buffs (depending on the move) that it OHKOs any steel or coverage resists. Furthermore, the coverage that isn't buffed by its ability and used often (Stone Edge, Earthquake) is powerful enough to OHKO threats anyway.

In case it wasn't obvious, I think Melmetal should stay banned. This post was made to put an end to the Melmetal
 
Who in their right mind thought this would be okay in OU it was oppressive before the AT ban and now it's even worse.

Anyway, Melmetal. If this thing doesn't get banned I think we all know it will comfortably rest very high on the VR. It is very oppressive and there are no consistent defensive options due to it's sheer coverage and power. This thing does seem like it won't get unbanned unless nintendo blesses us with heatran.

I'd like to address the Dracovish argument. There are many differences between these two that make melmetal significantly better.

1. Typing and stats:
While stats do not always make or break a pokemon, Melmetal has the ability to deal more damage and is more physically bulky than Dracovish, while Dracovish only excels in speed. Melmetal survives much more than the frail Dracovish, which more often than not dies in one hit. Also, Melmetal has a much better typing due to Clefable running rampant, as well as Dragapult.

2. Coverage:
Melmetal has good coverage which allows it to OHKO most "defensive answers" to it (the standouts being heat and wash). Meanwhile, dracovish's "coverage" does almost no damage whatsoever, and is honestly terrible. Not to mention that while Melmetal has Assault Vest options that still deal respectable damage while not requiring a switch (and boosting Sp. def), but Dracovish only has metronome has no viable options.(No, metronome is not okay on dracovish. Don't)

3. Counters and Checks:
Dracovish is oppressive, but has a lot of lost matchups. First, the tried-and-true immunities (Seismitoad, Gastrodon), the bulky resists (Ferrothorn, Toxapex), the outspeed OHKOers (Dragapult, Zeraora), and the sash setup sweepers (Excadrill, Cloyster). In other words, it is far from uncounterable. Melmetal on the other hand does so much damage with CB and potential iron fist buffs (depending on the move) that it OHKOs any steel or coverage resists. Furthermore, the coverage that isn't buffed by its ability and used often (Stone Edge, Earthquake) is powerful enough to OHKO threats anyway.

In case it wasn't obvious, I think Melmetal should stay banned. This post was made to put an end to the Melmetal
Honestly, there are so many flaws in your argument. First and foremost I don't understand why your whole argument is based around Dracovish. They are very much different pokemon with different checks and different counters and fit into completely different team structures. Secondly you state that metal has more power than Dracovish which is simply not true, just calc a bit before posting. Also, metal is not "MUCH" bulkier than Vish, it is only bulkier on physical side and realistically Vish's bulk is not even that bad. Lastly you are tremendously underselling their difference in speed. Vish outspeeds ALL fat mons, while metal is outsped by pretty much everything. Melmetal is unstoppable only if you do not know how to play against it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top