Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Iron Man

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Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to retest Melmetal.



Melmetal was initially quickbanned within two days of being released under the condition that it would be retested once the metagame settled down a bit. After a month and a half of post-home adjustments, including a recent Arena Trap ban, the OU tiering council believes now is the best time to give Melmetal a retest. Please note that a retest does not make it an official addition to the OU tier, but rather it allows for Melmetal to have the opportunity to be voted down from Ubers to OU. In order to have an accurate vote, we will be retesting Melmetal on the OU ladder over the next two weeks, much like any other suspect.

Melmetal had a large impact on the metagame over the couple of days in which it was allowed, but this may not be fully indicative of Melmetal's viability due to it just being released and everyone wanting to try it out immediately. A proper retest will give players who achieve voting requisites a chance to fully examine Melmetal's place in the metagame; they will be able to determine if Melmetal is banworthy or not with this information.

As for some background, Melmetal is a very strong and physically sturdy Pokemon. It is able to deal out large amounts of damage with its signature move, Double Iron Bash, which also has a high chance of flinching. While Melmetal is slow, investing in Speed could allow it to outrun most walls and paralysis support is also a possibility. Faster or not, the mono-Steel typing allows for Melmetal to resist a plethora of common attacks, which pairs quite nicely with high base 135 HP. All of these positive characteristics pair quite nicely with a slew of coverage moves such as Superpower, Earthquake, and Thunder Punch. Offensively, Melmetal is capable of dealing out massive damage output to a vast majority of Pokemon it will encounter in the SS OU metagame.

On the defensive end of the spectrum, Melmetal is quite capable as well; it can run a less directly threatening set that highlights its defensive prowess featuring Acid Armor and Body Press, fully abusing base 143 defense. This combination allows for it to be less prediction reliant and function as a win condition on balanced structures. It is true that this variant of Melmetal is less capable of breaking through common walls and pivots off-the-bat, which can be taken advantage of with timely pivoting to special attackers such as Rotom-Heat and Specs Aegislash. Not much is able to withstand a continuous assault from Melmetal though, even if it is defensively oriented. With the current metagame being full of various methods of recovery such as Wish, perhaps there could be enough longevity to keep Melmetal in check, but players must be wary of the many options Melmetal users can choose between, especially considering that Melmetal is not a particularly forgiving Pokemon with base 143 attack.

This retest will be used to determine if Melmetal should stay banned in the SS OU metagame or if it should be allowed once more. This thread should be used to focus on Melmetal's place in the suspect metagame and nothing else. There should be no discussion of alternative suspects or discussion opposing this retest. Normal suspect rules and procedure, which is outlined below, applies to this retest as well.



  • To achieve voting requisites, you must reach a minimum GXE of 82 with a minimum of 40 games played on the Pokemon Showdown! OverUsed (OU) ladder
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTJ. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTJ FINCH.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Melmetal, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until April 19th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Melmetal vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should he common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leader, Finchinator, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
 
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Zneon

formerly f is for frens
Melmetal



So, Melmetal. Now to kick of this discussion, I will give my feelings about it before the quickban, and see how it fairs now. So before the quickban and when it was just in OU for about a day, I feel that it was completely stupid, it was, and still is, a monster with pretty much 0 switch ins, so then I would want it to be quickbanned. As for now, the metagame as settled, though I feel that this was really early to suspect Melm, especially considering that the AT ban was 1 week ago. Okay, so after using it on the ladder a bit, I want to give my thoughts on it now and give a conclusion if I feel it will promote a healthy metagame.

No. Absolutely not. I don't think Melm is completely broken, but its presence, if anything will impact the tier very negatively. First, Choice Band, it's literally the equivalent of using Band Vish, except its more risk free and it has even less switch ins, considering the fact that DIB is a low risk, high reward move that always punishes your opponent for switching to a "check" considering that most mons will get 2HKO'd or just straight up die to the move, as a result I feel that there will be a significant amount of Rotom-Heat spam, considering that's probably the only thing that can stomach a DIB well. Considering the fact that support mons such as Teleport Clef absolutely benefit Melmetal to an insane degree that I cannot see Melm being healthy for the tier by any means, almost every single Special Attack are incapable of switching into it because of how it just nukes everything that switches in.

With Band out of the way, let's talk about Sub + Acid Armor. If anything I consider this a more painful set as it pretty much takes advantage of the most fat Pokemon in the tier such as Clefable, Ferrothorn and Defog Corviknight, and pretty much uses them as setup fodder because of how bulky it is, meaning that after an Acid Armor, every physical attacker are pretty much incapable of breaking through Melm without a crit, and Special Attackers like Dragapult and Gengar pretty much drops to DIB after breaking its Sub, its incredibly difficult to deal with when it gets going, as once it sets up, there is much less that the opponent can do, and considering the amount of fat mons in the tier, that are used on every team, I can't see this not being hard as, if not harder to deal with than Choice Band.

After all this, I do not think that Melmetal should return, at least for now, I feel it will be more manageable in the future, with Zapdos returning in DLC 2, but for now, I can't see Melmetal leading to a healthy metagame. I would love to see your opinions on Melm myself guys, whether it's similar to mine, anti-unban, pro-unban or just adding a whole other argument to this, can't wait to see your opinion.
 
Hey hey, first time ever posting on smogon! poggers

Anyway, I don't think enough has changed in the metagame to say that Melmetal is somehow not still broken. Let's consider its matchup against the top ten mons, and then some:

Clefable - easily OHKOs even max defense sets.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 732-864 (185.7 - 219.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
And Flamethrower barely even hits the iron man back, even if Clef is faster:
+2 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 350-414 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corviknight - with proper prediction, Melmetal can destroy this thing in two turns. Thunder Punch and Double Iron Bash easily 2HKO both Bulk Up and Defog sets - and while this does become a little more complicated when you factor in Roost, Covidknight cannot do jack back:
+1 0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 63-75 (13.3 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 112-132 (23.7 - 27.9%) -- 87.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dragapult - with chip, Double Iron Bash OHKOs even with burn:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist burned Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 264-312 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However, Dragapult can hit back with a Hex that will also deal significant damage, and Specs variants can also do quite a number on Melmetal with Fire Blast or, to an extent, Shadow Ball, so it's not quite a comfortable matchup for Metal.

Zeraora - Earthquake easily destroys Zeraora, and Zeraora can't do much back.
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 174-206 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if Melmetal is locked into Double Iron Bash, it still deals 83% at the lowest, beating the electric furry handily with even a little chip - for example, stealth rocks.

Aegislash - Double Iron Bash (136.3 - 160.9% ), Earthquake (253.6 - 298.8%), and Thunder Punch (114.1 - 134.4%) all OHKO every non-defensive set. Only banded Close Combat can fight back in any meaningful capacity. SubToxic Aegi cannot beat Melmetal, and it still gets rather nuked by Earthquake (88.8 - 104.9% ).

Excadrill - Again, this thing is utterly blown back by every one of Melmetal's moves. The only non-Thunder Punch attack that doesn't immediately kill is Double Iron Bash, and even that still has a low chance to. Earthquake from Drill can 2HKO Metal, however, and it's definitely faster.

Bisharp - Again, Earthquake and Superpower absolutely blow this thing away, and Double Iron Bash deals 75% at minimum. Bisharp's Knock Off can't even kill at +2, and setting up on Melmetal is extremely dangerous. If Melmetal switches in to Bisharp SD-ing, you are totally boned.

Kommo-o - I'm starting to repeat myself. Clangorous Soul gets destroyed by DIB and can only hit back with a max-60% Flamethrower, Defensive sets can survive one turn and have an 0.4% chance to 2HKO with Body Press.

Hydreigon - destroyed by DIB, Orb or Scarf:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 456-536 (140.3 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While theoretically a max/max Bold Hydreigon could survive one DIB, first off why the hell would you ever run that, and second off it's not like that extra turn can do anything - even with max Modest, Hydreigon can barely OHKO with Flamethrower.

Toxapex - Melmetal goes absolutely sicko mode on the poor starfish. If you've locked in to Earthquake or Thunder Punch, say goodbye to The Pex. If you've locked into DIB, you will be down to a 3HKO, but even then, what the hell can Toxapex do against the absolute iron force of nature that is a steel-type with a 51% chance to make you flinch? Because with only 12 EVs, Melmetal outspeeds Toxapex by one point.

Just about everything below here gets either handily OHKOd by DIB, destroyed by a prediction, or can survive for about two turns before falling to the monster themselves. Also, note that all of the scenarios in which something can kill Melmetal require a safe switch-in - Dragapult, Corviknight, Aegislash, Bisharp, none can switch in to DIB in any safe capacity, and if your opponent has the chance to predict, they get absolutely blown back anyway. The only thing I would say that is anything close to a solid counter is Rotom-Heat, and maybe Seismitoad.

Rotom-Heat:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 98-116 (32.3 - 38.2%) -- approx. 99% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 420-494 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Seismitoad:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 240-284 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Beyond this, nothing viable can switch in to Melmetal.

End result? Even if Melmetal cannot beat everything easily, with even a little bit of team support it can easily Double Iron Spam its way to victory and has winning matchups against almost all the highly used pokemon. Of a tier of 34 pokemon, two (not including itself) can switch into it safely. This will surely create a very unhealthy metagame. I don't expect to get reqs, but if I do, I will for sure be voting ban.
 
i definitely feel like melmetals too strong for the current meta but its worth using calcs with him in mind rather than just what people have been using. vish also looked unstoppable without carrying some water immunity before people grew more familiar with his options and limits.

like yeah current corv sets struggle with his coverage but with some defense EVs he can roost out basically all of his options. and due to pressure it doesnt really matter if he cant hit back. standard pex gets flinched but if pex is an important pivot for your team then you may need to speed creep back. defensive arcanine has been floating around a bit and is much more appealing with melmetal in the tier. and thats not getting into potential secondary effects on the tier such as how he makes it extremely difficult for wish+teleport clefable to do its job (as much as he benefits from wishpassing he also virtually shuts the set down entirely).

melmetal is still a monster and feels overpowered compared to the current OU. but its main scare still comes from the choice band set. and as strong as it is, thats still a slow choiced mon and in practice hes not always gonna get in for free, force something out, and guess the right coverage move.
 
I think the arguments around Melmetal can be summed up to:

Melmetal has no consistent defensive answer (it can run rock coverage for rotom, and toad takes almost half with no way to recover it, and itself has many super consistent counters) and almost no consistent offensive checks (STAB, super effective special attacks from something with >100 SpA are about the only way to consistently OHKO the thing).

TL;Dr: it's a big dumb mon.
 
And no-one has mentioned Assault Vest yet. Which lets it do this:
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 306-364 (74.4 - 88.5%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 204-242 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And so on. When people talk about Melmetal being "weak" to special moves, they don't mean it's like Kartana where a light, resisted special fart KOes it or Chansey where it has to eternally live in fear of Knock Off. They mean it actually takes damage on that side, as opposed to its nutty physical bulk. Anyway, I think Melmetal is more broken now than it was when HOME initially dropped and it was QBed. Why?

Other Banned Elements
:Kyurem-Black: The rivalry of these two was the story of the week after HOME dropped. Dragon Dance KB running through the tier and Melmetal being slapped onto teams in an attempt to halt it.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 191-225 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Melmetal's massive physical bulk and Ice resist allowed it to naturally check KB. But KB started running Earth Power to beat it:
0- SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 250-296 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 281-333 (68.3 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 205-244 (49.8 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (This is the most bulk it can run while still speed creeping uninvested Toxapex and having max Atk. As you can see, it's not enough to prevent Melmetal being 2HKOed on the switch-in)
So in order to check KB, Melmetal had to transfer a lot more of its potent offensive power than it would like into bulk. But this limited the damage it could do to opposing teams in return. Now remove KB from the equation however, and Melmetal is free to run much more offensive sets that can blow holes in teams.

:Dugtrio: The other ban that has happened since then, Arena Trap, has also benefited Melmetal.
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 300-354 (72.9 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 268-316 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While Dugtrio was unable to trap and kill a healthy/physically bulky Melmetal, it could take advantage of Melmetal's lack of recovery to force massive damage on it, which would limit the time it could spend breaking a team dramatically. Choice Band was the best way of dealing with it on a free switch, while Sash sets could come in a Melmetal Choice locked into a move that wasn't DIB. In addition to this, Melmetal usually could not benefit greatly from a Dugtrio on its team, as many of its usual answers like Rotom-H and Corviknight were untrappable.

So both the other banned elements since HOME's release have worked in Melmetal's favour, making it impossible to pin down and force damage on/revenge kill it, while removing its need to run absurd amounts of bulk to deal with another broken threat.

Metagame Trends
I think in the week after HOME's release, Teleport being given to Clefable was viewed by most people (at least certainly by me) as a nice gimmick that it would probably not find space for. However, since then WishPort has emerged as Clefable's #1 set, contributing to its utterly insane 83% usage rate in SPL after HOME came out. This set is loved by Melmetal for two reasons.
  1. It completely mitigates its lack of healing by Wish passing, and gives it loads of free switch-ins to break things.
  2. Opposing WishPort Clefable also give Melmetal free switch-ins to abuse, unless the Clef switches in and immediately Teleports out every time.
Other trends like the increasing use of Pex and Zeraora, the decrease in use of Hydreigon, all add up to Melmetal's presence being far more forceful this time around.

So I've heard some comparisons between Melmetal and our LORD VISH. These comparisons are utterly ridiculous.
  • Melmetal has insane bulk, Vish can be KOed by neutral hits.
  • Bulky Melmetal literally does not care about paralysis, is immune to Poison and resists Stealth Rock. Vish becomes dead weight when para'ed and hates being worn down.
  • Melmetal has one of the best defensive typings in the game, Vish has a mediocre one.
  • Vish loses when forced to use coverage. Melmetal OHKOs with its coverage.
  • There is no such thing as Steel Absorb.
So as you can see, there is nothing to compare the two.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 110-132 (36.1 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
HAIL LORD VISH.
 
So I've heard some comparisons between Melmetal and our LORD VISH. These comparisons are utterly ridiculous.
  • Melmetal has insane bulk, Vish can be KOed by neutral hits.
  • Bulky Melmetal literally does not care about paralysis, is immune to Poison and resists Stealth Rock. Vish becomes dead weight when para'ed and hates being worn down.
  • Melmetal has one of the best defensive typings in the game, Vish has a mediocre one.
  • Vish loses when forced to use coverage. Melmetal OHKOs with its coverage.
  • There is no such thing as Steel Absorb.
So as you can see, there is nothing to compare the two.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 110-132 (36.1 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
HAIL LORD VISH.
Not to take away from your post which I like, but have some differing thoughts on the comparison to Vish. While Vish isn't banned (yet) and is not the direct topic of this thread, I'd recommend against comparing anything undergoing a suspect test to Vish, who is arguably the most unhealthy OU-legal pokemon in the history of OU from a teambuilding perspective.

Like Melmetal, Vish:
  • Actually DOES have really good bulk (90hp/100def/80spdef), which makes it hard to revenge, kill with priority, etc
  • Both have stupid strong moves that work well with CBs. While Melmetal has base 143atk and Vish 90atk, Vish has a 170BP STAB move with a 1.5x ability multiplier vs. a 120BP STAB move with a 1.2x multiplier... technically Vish is stronger (how is that for perspective?).
  • Vish has one of the best defensive typings in the game, with only two weaknesses and tons of resists. Vish also doesn't lose when it has to use coverage, it can actually beat Toeds with strong-jaw boosted crunches
  • Vish does hate para but to para it you usually need to sacrifice that said pokemon (all the t-wave pokemon faster than Vish are also too frail to handle a CB-boosted 85bp fishious rend)
  • Vish actually outspeeds a ton of walls (Corviknight, Clefable, Hippo, etc)
My point here is that a comparison to Vish is actually reasonable in my eyes, which to be clear does NOT make me think Melmetal is ok. I will vote broken.

To put things in perspective: if we used our current OU logic, if a "steel absorb" existed, then Melmetal should probably be OU just like Dracovish. And we'd have said steel absorbers on every team.
 
I won’t be voting but I’ll share my thoughts.I believe Melmetal is incredibly unhealthy for the OU metagame and should stay in Uber(Legit they fuk where they thinking when making this thing).With an Assault Vest,Melmetal is incredibly hard to KO and destroys anything in its path.Double Iron Bash smokes anything that doesn’t resist it or have heavy Defense(Hippowdon for example,Which still takes a good chunk).Not only that even Steel Resistant Pokemon get bopped by coverage moves.Corviknight gets 2HKOd by Thunder Punch,Toxapex gets bopped by EQ as does Aegislash and Bisharp and the last move is heavily flexible.Ice Punch,Rock Slide and Superpower.Not to mention Choice Band is another option that nuked everything in sight.The best options are water types not weak to TPunch,Dracovish and Seismitoad are the two best options imo.That being said Melmetal is not unkillable.It has no reliable recovery and has bad Special Defense without Assault Vest
 
Melmetal is on another level compared to anything that is actually OU.

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 190-224 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are the only two switch-ins to CB Melmetal that have reliable recovery that can also switch into all of Melmetal's coverage moves. Quagsire and Gastrodon can both be flinched down if Melmetal invests in enough speed to do so. Max/Max Rotom-Heat takes enormous damage from Superpower and is pretty much only good for one switch-in. This extreme lack of defensive counterplay is unhealthy for OU. I think Melmetal has no business being in OU before Zapdos returns through DLC, and even then, it might be too powerful because being forced to use Zapdos to check it could mean that Melmetal is still too restrictive of a presence.
 
I think my post is going to be a bit different compared to the general consensus, while I do agree Melmetal is above the power curve I dont agree it should be banned. My main reasoning has to do with more so with me typically wanting balance to be moreso focused on a fun meta game over anything else. The term "balance" to me has no real use beyond it being a typically surefire way to make sure the game I'm currently experiencing a competetive experience where the player is rewarded for skill and game planning. The current SS OU meta is horribly stale it majorly consists of 3 core balance wish pass clef, defog uturn roost, a corviknight a rocker or screener and either ferro or pex as walls with 2 breakers whether it be specs kyurem, guts conk or something like scarf chandelure. Its incredibly stale with 50+ long turns just getting chip and hoping your opponent pivots incorrectly to force a sac on their side and chip some more. Melmetal breaks this format because of his insane attack stat and forcing a higher varience of mons like rotom heat and wash, inceneroar, keldeo and golisopod. Also in my experience he is incedibly fun to use and pivot around with whether it be his CB set or Acid armor. An argument I can see brought is its unbanning is going to mean that hes going to have to be built around heavily and included in most teams, my counter argument is Clef is used almost every team right now in OU, not because it deals massive amounts of damage, not because its huge variety of sets makes it super unpredictable (which it is and I argue is unfun) but because it can erase any mistake you have made with a simple wish teleport into wish protect on the pivot. Any arguements against my statements are more than welcome.
 
I think my post is going to be a bit different compared to the general consensus, while I do agree Melmetal is above the power curve I dont agree it should be banned. My main reasoning has to do with more so with me typically wanting balance to be moreso focused on a fun meta game over anything else. The term "balance" to me has no real use beyond it being a typically surefire way to make sure the game I'm currently experiencing a competetive experience where the player is rewarded for skill and game planning. The current SS OU meta is horribly stale it majorly consists of 3 core balance wish pass clef, defog uturn roost, a corviknight a rocker or screener and either ferro or pex as walls with 2 breakers whether it be specs kyurem, guts conk or something like scarf chandelure. Its incredibly stale with 50+ long turns just getting chip and hoping your opponent pivots incorrectly to force a sac on their side and chip some more. Melmetal breaks this format because of his insane attack stat and forcing a higher varience of mons like rotom heat and wash, inceneroar, keldeo and golisopod. Also in my experience he is incedibly fun to use and pivot around with whether it be his CB set or Acid armor. An argument I can see brought is its unbanning is going to mean that hes going to have to be built around heavily and included in most teams, my counter argument is Clef is used almost every team right now in OU, not because it deals massive amounts of damage, not because its huge variety of sets makes it super unpredictable (which it is and I argue is unfun) but because it can erase any mistake you have made with a simple wish teleport into wish protect on the pivot. Any arguements against my statements are more than welcome.
My arguments against your statement would be that the metagame is stale b/c there are too many suspect-worthy threats and only a couple team formulations are viable, NOT because it is lacking melmetal. Adding metal would double down on every team needing rocky helmet ferro, pex, corvi, etc.
 
I think my post is going to be a bit different compared to the general consensus, while I do agree Melmetal is above the power curve I dont agree it should be banned. My main reasoning has to do with more so with me typically wanting balance to be moreso focused on a fun meta game over anything else. The term "balance" to me has no real use beyond it being a typically surefire way to make sure the game I'm currently experiencing a competetive experience where the player is rewarded for skill and game planning. The current SS OU meta is horribly stale it majorly consists of 3 core balance wish pass clef, defog uturn roost, a corviknight a rocker or screener and either ferro or pex as walls with 2 breakers whether it be specs kyurem, guts conk or something like scarf chandelure. Its incredibly stale with 50+ long turns just getting chip and hoping your opponent pivots incorrectly to force a sac on their side and chip some more. Melmetal breaks this format because of his insane attack stat and forcing a higher varience of mons like rotom heat and wash, inceneroar, keldeo and golisopod. Also in my experience he is incedibly fun to use and pivot around with whether it be his CB set or Acid armor. An argument I can see brought is its unbanning is going to mean that hes going to have to be built around heavily and included in most teams, my counter argument is Clef is used almost every team right now in OU, not because it deals massive amounts of damage, not because its huge variety of sets makes it super unpredictable (which it is and I argue is unfun) but because it can erase any mistake you have made with a simple wish teleport into wish protect on the pivot. Any arguements against my statements are more than welcome.

Melmetal will liven up the meta for about a week, until it finds its place on every team, and the single best answer to it finds its place on the team. Alternately, both melm and its answer drops off in favor of a hyper offense strategy used purely to beat melm+ melm answer teams.

Broken mons like Melmetal do not encourage varied teambuilding, they restrict it further. Even your example, teleport clef, is already recognized as one of the best possible partners with Melmetal.
 
I think my post is going to be a bit different compared to the general consensus, while I do agree Melmetal is above the power curve I dont agree it should be banned. My main reasoning has to do with more so with me typically wanting balance to be moreso focused on a fun meta game over anything else. The term "balance" to me has no real use beyond it being a typically surefire way to make sure the game I'm currently experiencing a competetive experience where the player is rewarded for skill and game planning. The current SS OU meta is horribly stale it majorly consists of 3 core balance wish pass clef, defog uturn roost, a corviknight a rocker or screener and either ferro or pex as walls with 2 breakers whether it be specs kyurem, guts conk or something like scarf chandelure. Its incredibly stale with 50+ long turns just getting chip and hoping your opponent pivots incorrectly to force a sac on their side and chip some more. Melmetal breaks this format because of his insane attack stat and forcing a higher varience of mons like rotom heat and wash, inceneroar, keldeo and golisopod. Also in my experience he is incedibly fun to use and pivot around with whether it be his CB set or Acid armor. An argument I can see brought is its unbanning is going to mean that hes going to have to be built around heavily and included in most teams, my counter argument is Clef is used almost every team right now in OU, not because it deals massive amounts of damage, not because its huge variety of sets makes it super unpredictable (which it is and I argue is unfun) but because it can erase any mistake you have made with a simple wish teleport into wish protect on the pivot. Any arguements against my statements are more than welcome.
I both agree and disagree with this. I think the idea to reintroduce Melm was done with the intention of what you said, by bringing back a shiny new toy that dismantles the common cores that are just an eyesore at this point to shake things up and encourage the use of different things. I also think however (at least so far) that it missed the mark. Melmetal is a powerful offensive presence, but its bulk and sloth make it still a less than ideal pick for teams other than the bulky balance teams that it aims to destroy. I've seen a lot of people running Melmetal now and 8/10 of them are running it on a Clef/Corv/Seismi team, a lot of teams running around look something like this, this, this, or this and games are still lasting 50+ turns. Rotom-H is much more prevalent and I imagine that trend will increase, Fire coverage is being run on anything that can run it, I'm seeing it on Clefs and I've seen in on defensive Kommo-O a few times too. It is still very early stages so I'm keeping an open mind as to how things will change to accommodate Melm over these two weeks, but so far it just seems like more of the same with a side of Melm on every bulky balance team and an extra helping of Rotom-H and Fire coverage, and if that continues then it's having the total opposite effect as intended and instead of promoting more diversity in a stale meta it's simply making it even more stale and is best off staying out of OU.
I have no idea how this'll affect things post-DLC release and I don't think anyone else does either. If the vote leans ban but the meta changes to accommodate it post-DLC then idk, another suspect, maybe? We'll just need to wait and see for now, but as far as the meta right this minute stands, I'm personally not seeing much promise yet.
 
I both agree and disagree with this. I think the idea to reintroduce Melm was done with the intention of what you said, by bringing back a shiny new toy that dismantles the common cores that are just an eyesore at this point to shake things up and encourage the use of different things. I also think however (at least so far) that it missed the mark. Melmetal is a powerful offensive presence, but its bulk and sloth make it still a less than ideal pick for teams other than the bulky balance teams that it aims to destroy. I've seen a lot of people running Melmetal now and 8/10 of them are running it on a Clef/Corv/Seismi team, a lot of teams running around look something like this, this, this, or this and games are still lasting 50+ turns. Rotom-H is much more prevalent and I imagine that trend will increase, Fire coverage is being run on anything that can run it, I'm seeing it on Clefs and I've seen in on defensive Kommo-O a few times too. It is still very early stages so I'm keeping an open mind as to how things will change to accommodate Melm over these two weeks, but so far it just seems like more of the same with a side of Melm on every bulky balance team and an extra helping of Rotom-H and Fire coverage, and if that continues then it's having the total opposite effect as intended and instead of promoting more diversity in a stale meta it's simply making it even more stale and is best off staying out of OU.
I have no idea how this'll affect things post-DLC release and I don't think anyone else does either. If the vote leans ban but the meta changes to accommodate it post-DLC then idk, another suspect, maybe? We'll just need to wait and see for now, but as far as the meta right this minute stands, I'm personally not seeing much promise yet.
I have yet to try but how about incorporating it into a HO team? HO is decently strong in todays meta but take a experienced player with HO vs any varience of Balance and I'd give it a 30/70 match in favor of balance simply because a couple well placed screens or status will just make your team crumble. Melmetal however is able to take care of Grimmsnarl even through reflect and if you run a weather combo like specs pelliper and scarf fish you can negate nine tails screening. Keep in mind this is my first gen since I tried to get into gen 7 but with megas and z moves and like 100 viable mons it was a bit too steep of a learning curve at first and the farthest ive gotten on the ladder is HO 1600 points so I'm not super experienced on what generates a healthy meta game long term
 

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I can agree, if we vote to ban Melmetal I think we should do the same to clefable and clefairy
:pikuh:

While it's tempting to ask/discuss other potentially banworthy elements in the metagame, I strongly recommend limiting discussion to just Melmetal and what we have in the metagame at this point in time. We appreciate posts that mention suspect tests or the timing of this suspect test, but we would like to ask you all to avoid posting about that and instead focus on how Melmetal is in today's metagame. For starters, I'll provide a few sample questions:

1. Is there sufficient counterplay to Melmetal in OU?
2. What are the most optimal Melmetal sets? Is there any one set you believe to be too much for the metagame to handle?
3. How does Melmetal affect teambuilding?
4. What are the most common answers/methods of dealing with Melmetal?
5. How does Melmetal affect other threats in the metagame? What does it promote and what does it discourage?

Thanks, have a good day, and good luck with laddering.
 
I have yet to try but how about incorporating it into a HO team? HO is decently strong in todays meta but take a experienced player with HO vs any varience of Balance and I'd give it a 30/70 match in favor of balance simply because a couple well placed screens or status will just make your team crumble. Melmetal however is able to take care of Grimmsnarl even through reflect and if you run a weather combo like specs pelliper and scarf fish you can negate nine tails screening. Keep in mind this is my first gen since I tried to get into gen 7 but with megas and z moves and like 100 viable mons it was a bit too steep of a learning curve at first and the farthest ive gotten on the ladder is HO 1600 points so I'm not super experienced on what generates a healthy meta game long term
I don't entirely understand what you're saying, balance doesn't utilise Screens, Grimmsnarl and A-Ninetales are used on HO teams to offer more set-up opportunities and longevity, they're unnecessary on balance teams and are a waste of a slot, so running Melm on HO to handle Screens balance is completely unnecessary. HO right now is big because of its ability to dismantle existing balance so I certainly wouldn't call HO vs balance a '30/70 match in favour of balance' because that is also simply not true. I've not run Melm on HO and honestly I don't plan to, it's far too slow and its Choice restriction is not ideal either. It does hit like a train and DIB spam can be enough to achieve the desired result but you'd really want something like SD Terrak under Screens support as an example of something to dismantle balance cores and teams in general more effectively simply because of its speed tier and ability to switch up moves. As I said before, I don't want to speak in definitives until we get to see how the meta shapes up in these next two weeks, but I highly doubt Melm HO will be a thing due in part to the drawbacks I mentioned and also down to just how much more effective it is with Teleport and Wish support.
 
Banded Melm 2HKO's defensive Toxapex with EQ.
Hey hey, first time ever posting on smogon! poggers

Anyway, I don't think enough has changed in the metagame to say that Melmetal is somehow not still broken. Let's consider its matchup against the top ten mons, and then some:

Clefable - easily OHKOs even max defense sets.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 732-864 (185.7 - 219.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
And Flamethrower barely even hits the iron man back, even if Clef is faster:
+2 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 350-414 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corviknight - with proper prediction, Melmetal can destroy this thing in two turns. Thunder Punch and Double Iron Bash easily 2HKO both Bulk Up and Defog sets - and while this does become a little more complicated when you factor in Roost, Covidknight cannot do jack back:
+1 0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 63-75 (13.3 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 112-132 (23.7 - 27.9%) -- 87.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dragapult - with chip, Double Iron Bash OHKOs even with burn:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist burned Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 264-312 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However, Dragapult can hit back with a Hex that will also deal significant damage, and Specs variants can also do quite a number on Melmetal with Fire Blast or, to an extent, Shadow Ball, so it's not quite a comfortable matchup for Metal.

Zeraora - Earthquake easily destroys Zeraora, and Zeraora can't do much back.
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 174-206 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if Melmetal is locked into Double Iron Bash, it still deals 83% at the lowest, beating the electric furry handily with even a little chip - for example, stealth rocks.

Aegislash - Double Iron Bash (136.3 - 160.9% ), Earthquake (253.6 - 298.8%), and Thunder Punch (114.1 - 134.4%) all OHKO every non-defensive set. Only banded Close Combat can fight back in any meaningful capacity. SubToxic Aegi cannot beat Melmetal, and it still gets rather nuked by Earthquake (88.8 - 104.9% ).

Excadrill - Again, this thing is utterly blown back by every one of Melmetal's moves. The only non-Thunder Punch attack that doesn't immediately kill is Double Iron Bash, and even that still has a low chance to. Earthquake from Drill can 2HKO Metal, however, and it's definitely faster.

Bisharp - Again, Earthquake and Superpower absolutely blow this thing away, and Double Iron Bash deals 75% at minimum. Bisharp's Knock Off can't even kill at +2, and setting up on Melmetal is extremely dangerous. If Melmetal switches in to Bisharp SD-ing, you are totally boned.

Kommo-o - I'm starting to repeat myself. Clangorous Soul gets destroyed by DIB and can only hit back with a max-60% Flamethrower, Defensive sets can survive one turn and have an 0.4% chance to 2HKO with Body Press.

Hydreigon - destroyed by DIB, Orb or Scarf:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 456-536 (140.3 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While theoretically a max/max Bold Hydreigon could survive one DIB, first off why the hell would you ever run that, and second off it's not like that extra turn can do anything - even with max Modest, Hydreigon can barely OHKO with Flamethrower.

Toxapex - Melmetal goes absolutely sicko mode on the poor starfish. If you've locked in to Earthquake or Thunder Punch, say goodbye to The Pex. If you've locked into DIB, you will be down to a 3HKO, but even then, what the hell can Toxapex do against the absolute iron force of nature that is a steel-type with a 51% chance to make you flinch? Because with only 12 EVs, Melmetal outspeeds Toxapex by one point.

Just about everything below here gets either handily OHKOd by DIB, destroyed by a prediction, or can survive for about two turns before falling to the monster themselves. Also, note that all of the scenarios in which something can kill Melmetal require a safe switch-in - Dragapult, Corviknight, Aegislash, Bisharp, none can switch in to DIB in any safe capacity, and if your opponent has the chance to predict, they get absolutely blown back anyway. The only thing I would say that is anything close to a solid counter is Rotom-Heat, and maybe Seismitoad.

Rotom-Heat:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 98-116 (32.3 - 38.2%) -- approx. 99% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 420-494 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Seismitoad:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 240-284 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Beyond this, nothing viable can switch in to Melmetal.

End result? Even if Melmetal cannot beat everything easily, with even a little bit of team support it can easily Double Iron Spam its way to victory and has winning matchups against almost all the highly used pokemon. Of a tier of 34 pokemon, two (not including itself) can switch into it safely. This will surely create a very unhealthy metagame. I don't expect to get reqs, but if I do, I will for sure be voting ban.
Steel typing means it can't be worn down by toxic either. Rotom-H quad-resists DIB and Levitate provides immunity to EQ. Modest Rotom-H OHKO's banded variants with OH but doubles Showdown variants are dealt between 80-95% damage. WoW can be used to cripple it but burned banded Melm still OHKO's Rotom-H with Superpower after stealth rock damage.
This is for banded Melm vs pivot modest Rotom-H
1586303179096.png
 
WANTED:
:ss/melmetal:
Melmetal
1. Is there sufficient counterplay to Melmetal in OU?
The answer should be obvious to me and pretty much everyone reading this thread - Melmetal has quite literally no counterplay defensively, and even offensive counterplay is scarce because of Double Iron Bash. The only (viable) ways to counteract this guy here is Rotom-H and Seismitoad. This alone is not good - if you have to run the same 2 mons every single damn time to HOPEFULLY check a single pokemon, something's gone haywire. No, Quagsire and Gastrodon don't count because they're not that relevant anymore, I'm only listing these two. Then there's the "hopefully" part. Rotom-H gets fucked over with Superpower (no, seriously), leaving Seismitoad as the only viable counter that doesn't instantaneously combust to DIB or Melmetal's coverage. Even then, it has no recovery, so with a tiny bit of chip damage, Melmetal can beat the shit out of it, and we have great methods of beating the shit out of the toad in Clefable, Aegislash, Dragapult, and, by extension, Hydreigon that can destroy Seismitoad with ease.

EDIT: Urgh, fine, got enough energy to do this, I'll just answer the rest of the questions here.
2. What are the most optimal Melmetal sets? Is there any one set you believe to be too much for the metagame to handle?
The most optimal set I can think of is probably Choice Band. That thing combined with Double Iron Bash basically means Melmetal hits like an ABSOLUTE NUKE (now, I get that other pokemon do this, like Darmanitan, but fuck that guy). This is the main reason why Iron Giant here has so few switch-ins. CB Double Iron Bash completely nukes frail resists, and even bulkier walls will crumble to the move's raw power. The problem gets even worse with CB when you realize that this guy has a metric shitton of coverage to boot. So that means that anything but Seismitoad can crumble to a different coverage move (let's face it, the ones you're going to be running are Earthquake, Thunder Punch, and Superpower), and even then, a bit of chip damage and some special wallbreakers does wonders for a dead Seismitoad. I think the main set, Choice Band, is absolutely nuts and is too much.

Notwithstanding, I have seen other sets pop up like Assault Vest and [??Acid Armor + Body Press??], but I find those not as effective as CB is.
3. How does Melmetal affect teambuilding?
Melmetal won't exactly hurt teambuilding in itself, however, if it were to be unbanned, it would easily destroy the variability of teambuilding. This is because you'd already know to bring the same 2 pokemon (Rotom-H and Seismitoad, none of which are that reliable) just to check Melmetal. Let me ask you guys this - does forcing the same 2 pokemon on a team just to check something broken good? No. This is like the AT ban - it forced the use of otherwise unviable items just to check it. (This is different, but I figured I'd bring this up for good measures).
4. What are the most common answers/methods of dealing with Melmetal?
Read the answer for the first question.

Not going to answer question #5 because it's a big-brain joke I'm too small-brained to understand.

These questions should be enough to prove that Melmetal can and will essentially destroy the stability of this meta and needs to STAY OUT OF OU.
 
Last edited:
:pikuh:

While it's tempting to ask/discuss other potentially banworthy elements in the metagame, I strongly recommend limiting discussion to just Melmetal and what we have in the metagame at this point in time. We appreciate posts that mention suspect tests or the timing of this suspect test, but we would like to ask you all to avoid posting about that and instead focus on how Melmetal is in today's metagame. For starters, I'll provide a few sample questions:

1. Is there sufficient counterplay to Melmetal in OU?
2. What are the most optimal Melmetal sets? Is there any one set you believe to be too much for the metagame to handle?
3. How does Melmetal affect teambuilding?
4. What are the most common answers/methods of dealing with Melmetal?
5. How does Melmetal affect other threats in the metagame? What does it promote and what does it discourage?

Thanks, have a good day, and good luck with laddering.
1. No
2. CB all u need, many others viable tho
3. Really bad for teambuilding
4. There are no "answers"
5. Discourages teambuilding flexibility. Encourages more Dracovish, which further discourages teambuilding. Which encourages more Dracovish

Can we end this "suspect test"
 
Last edited:

Finchinator

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1. No
2. CB all u need, many others viable tho
3. Really bad for teambuilding
4. There are no "answers"
5. Discourages teambuilding flexibility. Encourages more Dracovish, which further discourages teambuilding. Which encourages more Dracovish

Can we end this "suspect test"
Did you actually make a forum account named "Is Dracovish Banned Yet?" solely to post this? You guys never cease to amaze me.

---

Anyway, I'm leaning towards ban currently. It is hard to answer defensively despite having poor speed and middling special bulk. This point has been talked to death already and it will be talked to death even more in the coming posts I'm sure, so I will leave it at this until I solidify my opinion and get reqs.

I am thinking of locking this thread if only because you guys clearly cannot follow the rules outlined in the OP. Melmetal was retested because it only got ~1 day in the tier, which overlapped with a ton of new Pokemon and moves being introduced as well. It was not a matter of "if", but rather a matter of "when" we would be retesting it prior to DLC. Doing so upon DLC or soon thereafter would be bad for the same reason it was initially: releasing controversial Pokemon into metagames with tons of new Pokemon, moves, etc. already just leads to confounding variables causing us to not know what the underlying issues are. There is a very good chance it will still be banworthy, in which case we can simply vote to ban it. However, we are not going to skimp out on doing the right thing as a tiering council, especially when we are not yet ready to go to any other suspects. Some are being discussed and they will continue to, but for now the predominant focus is on Melmetal and this is not changing, so this should be treated like any other suspect thread: staying on topic, not questioning why the suspect is happening or asking for it to end, and making arguments strictly on the suspect being banworthy or not. If there are many more people who violate the rules, then I will make it known that posting publicly is a privilege, not a right, by locking the thread.
 
Honesty Melmetal is stupid good in OU. It has little to no switch ins or answers with its choice band set, the very few being Aegislash, Rotom H and W, Seismitoad (who still takes 30% and has no recovery), Ferrothorn and Corviknight, the latter of which takes 49 - 53% to Double Iron Bash if it is max SpDef. Toxapex also takes less than 50%, however, Melmetal commonly runs 12 speed to outspeed it, leaving it vulnerable to Double Iron Bash's 51% flinch chance. It's low speed and SpDef does leave it vulnerable for specially attacking revenge killers such as Specs Pault, Specs Kyurem, if the melmetal has been chipped to below 90% and Dracovish, who still takes nearly 50% of its health from DIB. This low speed can be taked advantage of in Trick Room, in which it is incredibly strong and very hard to revenge kill from anything except Rotom-H, who doesn't even OHKO with unboosted Overheat with it's nasty plot set. Choice Band isn't melmetal's only set however. Melmetal can patch it's poor SpDef with an Assault Vest, which gets rid of crazy power in favour of being incredibly difficult to wear down. This means that Melmetal can possibly live 2 Earth Powers from Specs Kyurem and 2 Fire Blasts from Specs Pault with 252+ SpDef. This makes Melmetal significantly hard to KO and can take many mons with it as it goes down. I think that Melmetal should not be allowed back into OU.
 

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Melmetal is really good, thats for sure. You dont need to look at any calcs to figure out that a mon with such heavy physical bulk and varied movepool is going to sit at the top of the foodchain in the tier. That said, I think it fits just right in the tier as it is right now. While not many people I've discussed this with seem to agree, I think its offensive capabilities are not powerful enough for it to be problematic, but just strong enough to cause an impact in the tier, evidently not the most welcomed one but one that I think will help the current state of the meta.

Melmetal does one thing I think everyone can appreciate: punish TeleWish Clef Balance. Aside from Aegislash, theres not many mons in the meta that can hit Clef hard enough to where it cant succesfully pass Wish with Teleport to its teammates, which is one of the primary reasons this strategy has risen to the top of the metagame, to the point where not having your own Wish passing Clef puts u at a direct disadvantage against a team with it. Because of this, one of the prime switch-in opportunities for Melmetal is a Wishing Clef. I've seen and went through this sequence dozens of times on the suspect ladder and it also leads to one of Melmetal's flaws: Protect. Choice Band is the most popular set atm, although people briefly experiemented with Sub Acid Armor prior to the original ban and Assault Vest/bulkier AoA sets are seen sometimes. While the Clef user suddenly loses all momentum in the face of a Melmetal, Protect can usually scout the most dangerous set. Whenever Melmetal doesnt turn out to be choiced, it lacks the immediate power to force a kill through the sturdier defensive core that are very popular atm. Defensive backbones consisting of Clefable, Corviknight, Toxapex, Hippowdon, Seismitoad, Rotom-H, Ferrothorn, etc all have the tools to play around choiced sets and the sturdiness to withstand correctly predicted attacks coming from a non choiced set. A number of recent metagame trends including the rise of helm Hippo, Pain Split being a staple of Rotom-H, plenty of Ferrothorn, etc are quite punishing for Melmetal and with Wish Clefable being omnipresent, I think Melmetal has just the right power to force a kill when conditioned correctly but is not overpowered to the point where it can dismantle these cores at any moment without giving them the chance to recover.

Against more offensive teams, the biggest gripe most people have with Melmetal is just how bulky it is. It's nearly impossible to OHKO with a physical move, which often allows it to at least trade with an offensive threat. I think its physical bulk is easily one of its most oppressive traits for this reason, but I also think offensive teams are well equiped to handle this threat. The staple pivots (Clef, Corv, Toad, Kommo-o) all have different ways to prevent it from coming in for free: Clef can Teleport out for momentum, Corv clicks U-Turn more often than not, Toad is Toad, Kommo-o threatens to hit it with Body Press on the switch and win 1 on 1. I think on practice, Melmetal's impact in this matchup comes down to its ability to succesfully switch in (either after a KO or VoltTurn support) and make the right trade. It's definitely easier for it to get out of hand when you don't have the defensive backbone to hold it back or the offensive tools to take it down in 1 hit but mons like Rotom-H, Dragapult, Chandelure, Specs Kyurem, the increasingly popular CC Conk, etc are usually enough to keep it at bay and make progress themselves. Speaking of Kyurem, another great aspect about Melmetal is the addition of an offensive Ice resist to the tier. Prior to Melmetal the only mon that could really switch into an Ice Beam and pose a threat of its own was Aegislash. With the right set and spread, Melmetal can turn the tables against one of the most powerful breakers in the tier which is great for bulky offense teams that cant afford the sturdiest Ice resists that would drain momentum.

There's a lot more I could talk about but I think this about sums up my thoughts, I think Melmetal would be a great addition and in all honesty the tier can only get so much worse than it is rn anyway, free Melmetal
 
I have to say what has already been stated 100x. Melmetal is unhealthy for the meta, its simply too brainless there is no such thing as a CB DIB switch in . Over the course of a long game ( which is every game these days) Nothing is taking more than 2 Bashes you almost dont even need coverage. The only thing i can think of that would make Melmetals life even a little difficult is rocky helmet Ferrothorn. Combined with iron barbs and the fact that DIB obviously hits twice ,melmetal will take BIGG chip from brainlessly spamming it into a ferrorthorn, so maybe that could make the melmetal user think twice..... until he fully heals it by safely warping a wish to it with the Pink gengar looking thing. And thats just the choice band set, ferro is obvious setup fodder for the sub acid armor body press set and AV is solid af too. Tldr, Melm is a consistent threat to every team archetype and should stay uber Imo.
 
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