If you switch Mimikyu in at the right time (on a drain or mach) Mimkyu will force Conk out. Saying that conk can live a play rough is true, but play rough into sneak kills (let alone a SD play rough kills) so i don’t know what you were getting at there. Corviknight can run brave bird and roost which can beat conk if it still has its leftovers. Arcanine can also switch in just to get off the intimidate and then you can go into things like corv and toad and take less damage.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)
- Thread starter TPP
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Conkeldurr can run 252 speed EVs, it's always outspeed Hippowdon. Conkeldurr learn Close Combat this generation, it can 1v1 Hippowdon because it can 2HKO with Close Combat. It can just run Close Combat and doesn't have to use Drain Punch anymore because Clefable would use Wish and Teleport passes to Conkeldurr.
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Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
As SilentKillerVGC said:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 219-258 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I really don't think that Conk should run Drain Punch over CC, unless maybe you don't have Wish-Teleport Clef on your team as well.
I do agree with what you said about Mimikyu though; I think it's one of the better switches into Conk because you still get the immunity to 3 of Conk's moves but don't risk getting OHKOed by Knock Off like every other ghost. Mimikyu getting Knocked Off and breaking its Disguise is still risky though because it can greatly diminish its ability to clean up late game.
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scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
yeah, BUT that does not justify that he must stay in OU, Mimikyu and Togekiss are the only reliable counters, but that would be a Centralization as I said earlier
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. If you think I'm defending Conk, I'm not lol. Earlier this week I said that Dracovish is the only Pokemon that I would personally want suspected more than Conk in this post. I also would not call Mimikyu and certainly not Togekiss a counter to Conk. As I've said before, the only Pokemon that I think really counters Conk is Galarian Weezing. Mimikyu might be the second best at it but switching Mimikyu into Conk is riskier than switching in Galarian Weezing. Also, I can't see anything like Mimikyu, and certainly not Galarian Weezing, becoming overly-centralizing because of Conk (although since I love Galarian Weezing, I think that a bizarre Neutralizing Gas meta would be dope lol). Right now, the answer to Conk is to sometimes play around it with defensive resists/immunities, sac if you need to, and threaten it out/revenge kill. Walling Conk isn't really possible, unless you have Galarian Weezing but he's sadly not good enough to warrant much consideration. I don't think over-centralization in team building should be the argument against Conk if you don't want to see it in OU any longer.
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scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Oh ok, I did not understand you, thank you very much bro, altough Galarian Weezing is bad in the metagame imo, it has no reliable recovery and depends on a Wisher, in addition to its bulk is not so high
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
No problem! And yeah, Galarian Weezing isn't great, outside of checking Conk. He's become the most fun mon for me to use though in SS OU so I mention him whenever applicable.
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
exactly.No problem! And yeah, Galarian Weezing isn't great, outside of checking Conk. He's become the most fun mon for me to use though in SS OU so I mention him whenever applicable.
By the way, no one has discussed eeveelutions, I think they have interesting niches that are debatable anyone want to argue about any of these or no?
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Primarina is very good, is a really good Dracovish check, Can take a Fishious Rend Scarf and then kill him, Primarina is a very underrated mon who deserves more support.Don't feel like discussing vish because its mostly repetitive, so why not talk about 1 of my favorite mons rn Primarina!
View attachment 239534
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 44 SpD / 148 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
I'm going to be mainly be focusing on Primarinas sub cm set for this post. The spread here allows Primarina to keep subs up vs clef without any boosts, you also creep mons that like to creep Conk like Seismitoad, which allows you to sub up before they can knock/toxic your Primarina. The moveset is pretty self explanatory. Primarina is usually able to 6-0 many teams from team preview simply because it can get free subs up vs most defensive mons (ferro,bpress corv,pex,clef,seismitoad,mandibuzz,hippowdon,kommo-o) for free and start to cm up. Defensively your best is most likely pwhip ferro and it isn't all that common, though your mainly trying to deal with Primarina offensively, which poses its own set of problems esp if primarina is alrdy behind a sub, if that is the case you most likely will have to sack a mon to get rid of the sub and pressure Prim with something like Zeroara. Theres are also more niche sets like specs and trapper though I personally think this is the best Prim set atm, I'd love to hear your thoughts
Btw, change the 148 EVs in Speed for defense, is for hold better the Fishious Rend Band, because:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Primarina: 284-334 (78 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But yeah, Primarina is very good.
The 148 speed EVs are for setting up on some slightly faster passive mons like Seismitoad that would go for Toxic. Instead, Primarina gets a free sub against them and can wall them with Calm Mind. Primarina is not a good Dracovish check usually, as you can see from your own calc. I use Primarina with physically defensive Celebi as a Dracovish/Zeraora/Conk/Dracozolt check, because Primarina alone can't check Dracovish.
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Ah well, I understand, keep it like this, but if you are very susceptible to Dracovish (in other teams of course), make that change, it depends on the team in general.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
The problem with trying to use Primarina to check Dracovish is that it's slower than Dracovish. Even though it doesn't get OHKOed by Fishious Rend with your spread, it can't switch into Dracovish because it will just get KOed the following turn. If you're bringing it in to live a hit and then revenge kill Dracovish, you should just use something faster like Hydreigon or Dragapult to OHKO Dracovish without needing to take a hit first. I guess if you're trying to use it as a lure against Dracovish after a U-turn/Teleport/Volt Switch, that could work, but the same could be said for any Focus Sash user. I understand it's always nicer to have more outs against something as threatening as Dracovish, but I feel like running phys Def on Primarina is just squandering the potential of Primarina to succeed as a setup sweeper, which is where it's more valuable.
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
True, although Vish is not so threatening considering that the metagame is very used, so I would not have it in my suspect ranks, but true, Primarina is a sweeper, not a check from Vish.
What about Kyurem? I think there were earlier posters that brought up Kyurem as well.
Basically, bulky waters (especially those with self-recovery moves) used to wall Kyurem but not anymore as choice-specs Freeze-Dry hits too stupidly hard. Even the bulkiest specially defensive Clefable risk getting 2HKO if it had been worn down/leftovers knocked off earlier or frozen by Freeze-Dry.
I think the the use of Freeze-Dry has made Kyurem quite hard to wall - no Corviknight? you lose. It's almost as though gamefreak has some bias against water types. Or you end up running a bunch of stuff just to work around it, and all of them have a good chance of becoming frozen in the course of staying in, and you lose anyway.
My rambling: If Freeze-Dry is effective against water types, why isn't Scald effective against ice types?
Basically, bulky waters (especially those with self-recovery moves) used to wall Kyurem but not anymore as choice-specs Freeze-Dry hits too stupidly hard. Even the bulkiest specially defensive Clefable risk getting 2HKO if it had been worn down/leftovers knocked off earlier or frozen by Freeze-Dry.
I think the the use of Freeze-Dry has made Kyurem quite hard to wall - no Corviknight? you lose. It's almost as though gamefreak has some bias against water types. Or you end up running a bunch of stuff just to work around it, and all of them have a good chance of becoming frozen in the course of staying in, and you lose anyway.
My rambling: If Freeze-Dry is effective against water types, why isn't Scald effective against ice types?
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scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
I don't know why suspect is asked, but well, there are my arguments
Pro Ban argument:
- This mon is very difficult to wall, the bulky waters are weak to Freeze-Dry Specs and Clefable dies with Ice Beam, the only mon that walls it is Sylveon, but this means that you must drop Clefable by Sylveon (although Sylveon is great, I will not deny it), I will have to give some calcs
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 322-380 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 828-976 (257.1 - 303.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 558-656 (176 - 206.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Anti ban argument:
- Its speed is average, but it is slower than things like Zeraora, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Keldeo and Terrakion and all of these can respond strongly to it and if it carries a Scarf it does not hit hard, Sub Kyurem is easy to break by Sylveon, so this is an anti ban argument.
because I think the anti ban argument is stronger, because he has problems dealing with all of these and the fact that he lacks monsters who wall him is not so important, because it is slow, sincerely I think he should stay and even if they ban Clefable And Conkeldurr, I don't think he should go, he is not broken at all, he is also weak at Mach Punch, so he is weak at Conkeldurr.
I will never understand why people even pose a Kyurem suspect test, I know it is difficult to wall, but the fat teams do not have that much weight, keeping Kyurem in OU
He's got a point you know
I'd like to note that Kyurem gets absolutely feasted on by Dragapult. SubRoost is denied by Infiltrator in all scenarios, and Specs can't even attempt to outspeed it.
HOWEVER, Dragapult getting in is its own issue. Because Kyurem hits like a truck, undeniably in the top 5 of things you really don't want to switch into in SwSh OU.
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
I agree, Kyurem is very difficult to change (the only pokes that change it are Sylveon, Snorlax sometimes and Bronzong), but it is stopped by Dragapult in most scenarios and it is also stopped by Sylveon in all (and I mean all) scenarios, freezing is a bit unlikely and Hyper Voice trespasses Sub Kyurem
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The only way clef gets beat by Kyurem is if it gets frozen. Max spdef clef does not get 2hko’d. Sylveon is a counter, but it’s horrible outside of that. CurseLax is a counter to Kyu with thick fat. Jirachi can take ice/dragon moves. Spdef Corv walls with roost. This thing is not ban worthy, not even close
Conk should never run CC. The stat drops will allow it to get ko’d by Hippo with EQ. Drain punch is perfectly fine, getting (somewhat) reliable recovery and still hits hard with Stab+Guts boost. Facade is there to hit harder and Facade also does NOT have the negative stat drops, allowing it to beat things like Togekiss and Clef
I want to address a couple of points I don't agree with.
First of all, I don't consider Kyurem slow at all. Its speed is highly impressive for such a threatening wallbreaker, outspeeding and forcing out many common decently fast Pokemon like Excadrill and Rotom-H. Then you mention Zeraora, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Keldeo, and Terrakion "can respond strongly to it" but all of them have the potential to be OHKO'd so they can't reliably switch in at all. If you're using balance and your sole counterplay to Kyurem is sacking something and then switching in a revenge killer, that's a recipe for disaster. Next, Kyurem is so bulky that you'd need some significant prior chip damage to even kill it with a Guts-boosted Mach Punch from Conkeldurr and again, since Kyurem can OHKO it, it's not reliable counterplay at all.
Not sure why people keep bringing up Dragapult, as you mention it can't reliable come in on it at all. SubRoost isn't even part of the discussion as it's honestly not a great set at all (I'm assuming you mean a set akin to its set from last generation). While Choice Specs is clearly the dominant Kyurem set, I will acknowledge there is a Leftovers Substitute + Protect + Dragon Dance + Icicle Spear set that is worth exploring, partly thanks to its surprise value and Pressure stalling capabilities. Even in this case Dragapult isn't all that much of a threat since Kyurem will outspeed it after a Dragon Dance and threaten it with Icicle Spear.
Seriously, stop acting like Dragapult can safely come in on Kyurem because it cannot. Additionally, Snorlax is indeed a check but AV is not a set at all. I'm also not sure why you keep bringing up Sylveon. The fact that people would use Sylveon to check Kyurem despite being harshly outclassed by Clefable except for its Special Defense is a testament to how problematic Kyurem really is.
Clefable getting frozen honestly isn't as unlikely as some people are making it out to be. If you're consistently using Clefable to tank Ice Beams/Freeze-Dries from Kyurem your opponent can keep fishing for a freeze and be bound to get it and render your check useless. That's also not the only way Clefable can get beaten by a long shot. If its Leftovers get knocked off and/or it gets chipped down in the slightest it's at risk of getting 2HKO'd, and that's not even taking into consideration critical hits. Snorlax does check it but it's far from the most splashable Pokemon. Jirachi is weak to Earth Power and honestly can't even consistently tank its other attacks that well. Corviknight has the same problem as Clefable in that a freeze/critical hit/chip damage ruins it.
Guts-boosted Close Combat is quite spammable, since only Toxapex can reliably come in to take it (Ghosts tend to fear Knock Off and Togekiss Facade), and cleanly 2HKOs Hippowdon on the switch (or forces it out), there's no Earthquake to be taken here. But yes, Drain Punch is still a fine option for more longevity. I'm not sure what you mean with your last sentence since there's no specific reason Close Combat would cause it to drop Facade.
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
It is not terrible, it also transfers Substitute and Specs Sylveon hits as a truck, it is even 2HKOed to Corviknight, I think it is too underrated.
But in fact Kyurem is far from being banworthy, he has a large checklist, it is for the same reason that Dracovish is not banworthy either in my opinion, Keep Kyurem and Vish and Leave Conk and Clefable.
I would generally say that it's good to start out with some of your own thoughts a on topic if you're wanting to generate discussion on that topic. But since Eeveelutions are always interesting to discuss, I'm happy to provide my own thoughts (I believe another user posted their thoughts a page or two back as well if you'd like to look).
Sylveon is the only Eeveelution that I think has established a strong niche in OU, though it's faded considerably due to Clefable's total domination of the tier with its Teleport + Wish set. Sylveon also lost a bit of its role when Dugtrio was banned, as Pixilate Quick Attack was one of the few niches it retained over Clefable. I do think it's worth consideration on a few teams since it's generally a better Hydreigon check and its Pixilate Hyper Voice can hit through Substitutes. Be sure to take advantage of its better SpD and ability to hit through Subs if you're planning on using it over Clefable.
Umbreon is an interesting choice, though I am not sure whether it will continue to retain its niche moving forward. Its weakness to Fairy hinders its ability to serve as a special wall, but it still does decently well against specially-based Ghost types. It was pretty decent in the pre-Home metagame but the number of fast Fighting types introduced does it no favors. As a Wish passer I'd consider it outclassed by Clefable and to a lesser extent even Vaporeon.
Vaporeon is the only one left that has any usable niche in OU, imo. As mentioned before, it's a decent Wish passer. Even though it lacks Teleport, its Wishes are gigantic even compared to Clefable's. It competes with Gastrodon, Mantine, and Seismitoad as a water immunity. While I think it's the best Dracovish answer (with full defense investment) out of the bunch, the others offer role compression that is generally more useful to a team than Vaporeon's wish passing, especially with Clefable usurping that role quite well on many teams.
The others I don't really think warrant discussion. Espeon and Flareon shockingly aren't totally unusable but are outclassed mostly by Hatterene/Xatu and Arcanine/Centiskorch respectively. The others are laughably terri-bad, as their movepools somehow got even worse with the generational shift.
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scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
I agree, Sylveon has a considerable niche with Hyper Voice and its fattest special bulk, Vaporeon and Umbreon are pretty decent, but they don't have as good a niche as the others, Flareon and Espeon meh, they work in specific builds and the others work , but they are very situational.
Kyurem Last month 1825+ usage at least 25% of them were modest and tho corvi is a straight 2hko , knocked off clef isn't a check without considering freeze or crit . In short every 4 kyurem in high ladder you see is a straight massacre if you ever consider using clef or corv as your kyurem check .
Vish restrain teambuilding while fishing for match-up since its kinda easily checked while Kyurem is always good , also able to run different set ,freeze stuff , force the usage of mediocre mon to check it defensively ( snorlax is deadweight against any type of team running haze pex/ww hipo , brozong is hard walled by corv and take the d by the uncomon shadow ball , sylveon is a leader price/wall Mart Clefable ) so yeah tbf kyurem is more of a problem right now than vish is but chansey is on his way , the ou council made the mistake letting us suffer for months with AT roam free , so it won't bother them if the meta sucks since july is close by , and pretty much all they did since the start of ss ou was discutable (sleep clause , AT for month then an useless suspect , lame ass excuse about not qbing dinamax (we care for the pleb/cart kid user so they can have fun for a moment on a simulator made for purist ruled by a minority of elitist , the mechanic was so balance it's was pretty much suspected/banned on every tier outside of uber/ag even in randbat so the argument is 100% making sense oof ) , another useless suspect for melmetal which could be tested again after the dlc , stag ) , we all agree the current ss ou is the worst ou we ever had with the worst council decisions on top of it , great right , that was my little grain of salt sorry .
Guts-boosted CC is fucking spammable, it's one of the top pokemon in SS we don't want to switch in because it can 2HKO the entire metagame (I am not even exaggeration). Let's say that Hippowdon switches into Conkeldurr's Facade/Knock Off without stats drop, it will do nothing back to Conkeldurr because CC will 2HKO it so Conkeldurr will force Hippowdon out. You would be insane to run Togekiss/Sylveon over Clefable this metagame because Clefable is a super glue pokemon on any team and Wish/Teleport passes to a breaker that doesn't have a true switch-in (Conkeldurr, Kyurem, Zeraora, Dracovish, Hydreigon and Aegislash).
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