Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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Normal defensive Venusaur is actually better than I thought. It's no Mega Venusaur, but it still puts in work. Walling Zeraora, which I've seen a fair amount of people complain about (although I saw a blaze kick variant on the ladder). It partially walls conk, facade can be an issue. Can take two scarf Vish hits not in the rain. Defensive mons like Pex, Mandibuzz, Toad, Hippo can't really touch this thing. It can easily stop Terrakion, and sometimes SD Aegislash and Keldeo. Sleep powder seems to work better than toxic in order to potentially stop set up threats, or can catch a Corviknight, Clefable, etc. coming in, or for opposing steel types or poison types which can't be poisoned. Sludge Bomb obviously threatens clef, who gets 3HKO'd, and other faries. Overall it is a good defensive check to a lot of the physical mons in the tier. I'm just surprised that I don't see this more often.


venu.gif


Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis / Toxic / Sleep Powder
- Earth Power / Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
Def. Calcs
Dragapult
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Venusaur: 150-177 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Conk
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 149-176 (41 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 232-274 (63.9 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Dracovish
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 156-183 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(watch out for psychic fangs though) 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 208-246 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Zeraora
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 64-76 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 52-61 (14.3 - 16.8%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Zeraora Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 39-46 (10.7 - 12.6%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 84-99 (23.1 - 27.2%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Blaze Kick vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 190-226 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Excadrill
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 118-141 (32.5 - 38.8%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 144-169 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 96-113 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- 12.3% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

(banded could be a problem)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 214-253 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 143-169 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
 
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Normal defensive Venusaur is actually better than I thought. It's no Mega Venusaur, but it still puts in work. Walling Zeraora, which I've seen a fair amount of people complain about (although I saw a blaze kick variant on the ladder). It partially walls conk, facade can be an issue. Can take two scarf Vish hits not in the rain. Defensive mons like Pex, Mandibuzz, Toad, Hippo can't really touch this thing. It can easily stop Terrakion, and sometimes SD Aegislash and Keldeo. Sleep powder seems to work better than toxic in order to potentially stop set up threats, or can catch a Corviknight, Clefable, etc. coming in, or for opposing steel types or poison types which can't be poisoned. Sludge Bomb obviously threatens clef, who gets 3HKO'd, and other faries. Overall it is a good defensive check to a lot of the physical mons in the tier. I'm just surprised that I don't see this more often.


View attachment 241106

Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder / Toxic / Synthesis
- Giga Drain / Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
Def. Calcs
Dragapult
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Venusaur: 150-177 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Conk
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 149-176 (41 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 232-274 (63.9 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Dracovish
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 156-183 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(watch out for psychic fangs though) 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 208-246 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Zeraora
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 64-76 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 52-61 (14.3 - 16.8%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Zeraora Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 39-46 (10.7 - 12.6%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 84-99 (23.1 - 27.2%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Blaze Kick vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 190-226 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Excadrill
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 118-141 (32.5 - 38.8%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 144-169 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 96-113 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- 12.3% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

(banded could be a problem)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 214-253 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 143-169 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Going through calcs one by one
Number one, specs pult is not really good anymore.
252 SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Venusaur: 195-229 (53.7 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Here's the correct calc
Next Conk calc makes no sense.
Close Combat into Facade KO's after rocks, and has a chance to even without rocks(guaranteed if lefties have been knocked).
Vish calc also makes no sense, given it's not band.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 233-275 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
And scarf vish only exists on rain which equates to banded vish anyways
Zera calc is a good point
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
Venu can't switch into drill if rocks are up either
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 144-169 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
Here's calc for non-banded terrak as well.
I even have issues with the set. Why is Synthesis even being slashed, let alone being slashed after Toxic and Sleep Powder when it should at least be slashed first?
I'd go w/ ( leech | ep | sludge bomb | synthesis| )
Finally, I apologize for formatting I know it's a mess
 
Going through calcs one by one
Number one, specs pult is not really good anymore.
252 SpA Spell Tag Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Venusaur: 195-229 (53.7 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Here's the correct calc
Next Conk calc makes no sense.
Close Combat into Facade KO's after rocks, and has a chance to even without rocks(guaranteed if lefties have been knocked).
Vish calc also makes no sense, given it's not band.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 233-275 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
And scarf vish only exists on rain which equates to banded vish anyways
Zera calc is a good point
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
Venu can't switch into drill if rocks are up either
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 144-169 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
Here's calc for non-banded terrak as well.
I even have issues with the set. Why is Synthesis even being slashed, let alone being slashed after Toxic and Sleep Powder when it should at least be slashed first?
I agree specs pult isn’t used as much anymore, but still see it from time to time. I thought i would put it in anyways. Conk will kill with cc into facade, but due to the drops from cc, a sludge bomb could kill the conk, depending on the hp.
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 205-243 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
On the scarf vish point, I still see a lot floating around, it's not like it doesn't exist anymore.
Exca has a very little chance of 2hko-ing venu with rocks up, you had burn damage on the calc.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
On the synthesis/toxic/sleep powder point, I used both sp and synthesis and synthesis is by far better, but sleep powder can definitely come in handy some times. I'll put synthesis in front now. But once again, Venusaur prevents walls from really doing anything, pex, mandibuzz, hippo and toad all struggle against it. Those are 4 of the (at least) top 10 defensive mons in the current meta.
 
No, physdef Toxapex doesn’t help much.
I strongly agree with this comment
With appropriate support like setting hazard. knock off the black sludge or putting status(para/burn) on the pex
Dracovish is able to break the toxapex in a high probability. We know that pex can fill one slot with bunker to nerf the Vish
So does the Vish, it evolves, it could play safe and smart. Utilize your mind 90% to click bunker on that turn and switch out to keep momentum.
Even if you make the Vish poisoned, it still mess up your team by mindless clicking.
The toad has the outrage/rend dilemma (And the first time you will very likely to get hit by outrage because you can't take the risk of being smashed by rend so you switch to toad over 90 times in a 100 scenes), the ferrothorn lacks reliable recovery.
Always remember the non-item/weather boosted Vish's move power is approximately equal to a M-Medicham HJK
And it has no accuracy flaw, no negative effect (recoil, speed drop etc)

Do we really want to keep it because the toad/ferro/pex is popular in this tier?
 
Lmao for some perspective, vs a max invest Mew with no type advantage:

252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits): 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%)

224 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%)

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%)

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) : 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%)

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) in Electric Terrain: 282-333 (69.8 - 82.4%)

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP): 288-339 (71.2 - 83.9%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP): 382-451 (94.5 - 111.6%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) in Rain: 574-676 (142 - 167.3%)
 
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Finchinator

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Lmao for some perspective, vs a max invest Mew with no type advantage:

252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits): 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%)

224 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%)

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) : 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%)

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP): 282-333 (69.8 - 82.4%)

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP): 288-339 (71.2 - 83.9%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP): 382-451 (94.5 - 111.6%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP): 574-676 (142 - 167.3%)
Rules said:
make sure your post actually bring some sort of discussion to it.
Normally, I would delete this post, but there are so many instances of posts lacking true substance that are not worth being posted that I will make an example out of this one. Everyone in this thread is capable of using a damage calculator. Everyone in this thread should be able to gauge how relatively strong these Pokemon are. Unfortunately, some people apply this information poorly in their arguments and that is their fault entirely, but bumping the thread with a wall of calcs and no actual arguments or substance is pointless. Let's avoid this moving forward.
 
Normally, I would delete this post, but there are so many instances of posts lacking true substance that are not worth being posted that I will make an example out of this one. Everyone in this thread is capable of using a damage calculator. Everyone in this thread should be able to gauge how relatively strong these Pokemon are. Unfortunately, some people apply this information poorly in their arguments and that is their fault entirely, but bumping the thread with a wall of calcs and no actual arguments or substance is pointless. Let's avoid this moving forward.
No, I don't think most people are able to grasp the relative power of fishious rend. It is so much stronger than anything in the past.

That's not too say raw power is the end all be all of a Pokemon's viability, but when it comes from a no risk move, on a Pokemon that isn't easy to ohko, and in a generation with a fraction of defensive answers, it's worth highlighting.
 

Finchinator

We'll be a fine line
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
BW Circuit Champion
No, I don't think most people are able to grasp the relative power of fishious rend. It is so much stronger than anything in the past.
Anyone who plays the tier has at the very least a rough idea of how strong it is.

That's not too say raw power is the end all be all of a Pokemon's viability, but when it comes from a no risk move, on a Pokemon that isn't easy to ohko, and in a generation with a fraction of defensive answers, it's worth highlighting.
I’m with you. I think Dracovish is suspect worthy and probably banworthy. There’s just no time or place to make a post solely with walls of calculations.
 


I'm going to be entirely honest: I don't see any merit in trying to ban Wishport Clefable.

Without a doubt, Clefable is not only the best Pokemon in the current metagame, but also harbors one of the best sets in Wish + Protect + Teleport + Moonblast. We know how incredible this set is, not only in its defensive utility, but in the fact it can heal worn down defensive behemoths that can't heal reliably for free. What makes it so good is that, unlike Xatu/Gardevoir/Gallade, it doesn't need to compromise its team slot, as it is able to do much more than pass Wishes such as check Dragon spam, and its godlike utility as a whole goes without saying. Consequentially, I've noticed a lot of people are mentioning how they think Clefable is the problem, as it is utterly overcentralizing balance. While I believe that this is an issue, I don't believe this in of itself is Clefable's fault. As the Melmetal suspect passed through, I made many observations regarding the role that Clefable played in balance, and I realized that Clefable itself isn't the problem, but rather offense itself.

There have been many relevant arguments regarding how much Dracovish constrains teambuilding in its own right, alongside behemoths such as Kyurem and Zeraora. Despite how we have lost Z-Moves and Megas going into Gen 8, we also lost a lot of defense in turn as well, and we gained a lot of unprecedented wallbreakers. Whether they're completely new or simply refurbished with new moves, it is without question that these Pokemon are a problem at their core. I addressed in this post here in more detail on how Clefable more or less was trying to act as a team captain trying to keep defensive Pokemon healthy to keep taking on these offensive threats. With this in mind, it's unsurprising that Wishport Clefable is so good in a meta where Pokemon can dismantle defensive threats that struggle to keep themselves healthy, especially with AT now gone.

If in the hypothetical case we banned Clefable, HO would undeniably break the metagame. If you play a defensive playstyle, you cripple yourself in the team builder, because with things like Zeraora and Kyurem around without the best thing in the game to keep checks healthy, the only way you'd be able to successfully best these threats is to bring them yourself. I feel I don't need to explain why this is a problem.

However, I don't believe this is a case of broken checking broken, as I feel Kyurem and Zeraora offensively are only as powerful as they are because of the meta that they're surrounded by. Even if Teleport is the issue, I feel the true culprit of it and Offense's strength (and currently the bigger issue regardless of if Teleport is broken or not) is Dracovish.



Truthfully, there have been a lot of arguments regarding suspecting Dracovish, and at this point, I can't help but agree. The defensive metagame loses so many of its options just to not lose to Dracovish that options to checking things like Kyurem and Zeraora are severely limited, and allow for them to freely dismantle the metagame without much of an issue. Seismitoad, for instance, is used so much because it compresses a Rocker, Electric immunity, a generally defensive Pokemon, and, most notably, a water immunity. Gen 8 marks the first time possibly ever where having a Water immunity is a huge reason as to why a Pokemon is viable. As of this post, Seismitoad sits at the A rank in the Viability rankings, and despite the time since the last update, I feel this hasn't even remotely faltered. Despite 3 straight generations of mediocrity, suddenly, it's an OU staple, mainly because it checks Dracovish. As a result of the overbearing strength of Dracovish, ultimately mediocre things like Seismitoad are run, and in turn, further encourage use of Wishport Clefable so it can do its job while making sure Dracovish and co. doesn't utterly dismantle its team.

As a result, Dracovish puts such a strain on defense because you have to always consider that chance of running into Dracovish. If you don't have Ferro, Pex, or an Immunity, you lose at team preview--even then, Ferrothorn and Pex are still greatly dented by Fishious Rend, especially in the Rain. Dracovish fits every bill of overcentralizing that is suspect-worthy, most notably, warping the metagame around itself. Water immunities and resistances are required almost exclusively because of Dracovish, and the defensive metagame is forced to lose out on options just because Dracovish will dismantle it otherwise. Wishport Clefable has to be used, because it is the only real way that things handling the offense of the metagame can really do their jobs. theotherguytm did an amazing job explaining as to why Dracovish is a problem in his post earlier in this thread, which you can see here.

Overall, it's true that Clefable is overcentralizing how balance is to be played, but I can't help but say that the source of the problem isn't Clefable itself, but, rather, the reason as to why it's so centralizing to begin with: offense. More specifically, the issue is Dracovish forcing options away from relevancy that could legitimately check Zera/Kyu/Terrakion. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk
OK so what are these "punished options" that Vish forces into obscurity that will suddenly rise to check Zera/Kyu/Terrak?
Pretty sure those mons only have a handful of defensive checks between them regardless.
 
I am sick of reading about:

"If in the hypothetical case we banned Clefable, HO would undeniably break the metagame. If you play a defensive playstyle, you cripple yourself in the team builder, because with things like Zeraora and Kyurem around without the best thing in the game to keep checks healthy, the only way you'd be able to successfully best these threats is to bring them yourself. I feel I don't need to explain why this is a problem".

It is absolutely not only bad argument, but actually no argument at all. You have no real idea how metagame will adapt to potential absence of Clefable. Nobody has until that really happen. Those kind of irrelevant predictions never were, and shall never be considerate to prevent from suspect testing something. Actually, I don't even care if metagame fall apart or not. Checking broken mon with another broken mon is not a way. If Zareora or Kyurem, or anything else will become too much to handle, then they must get a their own suspect. Simple.

Melmetal suspect was about reintroduction an uber pokemon, which didn't happen, so nothing really changed in the meta. That's why waiting for tier stabilization, as we always do after ban, looks like unnecessary waste of time. Right now meta is completely unplayable, and I hope council will make some decision soon.
 
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Martin

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OK so what are these "punished options" that Vish forces into obscurity that will suddenly rise to check Zera/Kyu/Terrak?
Pretty sure those mons only have a handful of defensive checks between them regardless.
I wouldn't say there are "punished options" so much as teams wouldn't be pigoenholed into running either a Water immunity or multiple physically defensive Water resists to check it consistently. Having those extra slots freed up (and not having to integrate something as horribly mediocre as Seismitoad into defensive cores) really goes a long way towards adequately prepping for Pokemon like this—Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Toxapex will have more mixed/specially defensive spreads opened up as reasonable options, it will all of a sudden become much more reasonable to stack more soft responses for Pokemon that aren't Dracovish. To mention Seismitoad again, not stacking Ground-types alongside Hippowdon is a boon in its own right—it means you can run something that either helps check another Pokemon (e.g. SpD Rachi for Kyu, Cofag for Conk etc.) or literally anything else that doesn't exasperate an awkward GK Zeraora MU like Seis does. There are other things I could probably mention too but I think you get the gist of my post at this point.

Also re: the above post—the meta is not unplayable lol. I actually really like what we have ATM outside of Dracovish existing. If you want unplayable just look towards gen 7. I agree with the rest of the sentiment of your post tho—plz ppl stop saying stuff shouldn't be banned bc it checks other things. While I don't personally have any problem with Clefable anyway, the same argument could easily be applied in reverse with banning breakers making balance too strong (I have seen people argue this) and it is an equally bad argument then—broken checks broken fallacy yada yada yada.
 
OK so what are these "punished options" that Vish forces into obscurity that will suddenly rise to check Zera/Kyu/Terrak?
Pretty sure those mons only have a handful of defensive checks between them regardless.
I wouldn't say there are "punished options" so much as teams wouldn't be pigoenholed into running either a Water immunity or multiple physically defensive Water resists to check it consistently. Having those extra slots freed up (and not having to integrate something as horribly mediocre as Seismitoad into defensive cores) really goes a long way towards adequately prepping for Pokemon like this—Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Toxapex will have more mixed/specially defensive spreads opened up as reasonable options, it will all of a sudden become much more reasonable to stack more soft responses for Pokemon that aren't Dracovish. To mention Seismitoad again, not stacking Ground-types alongside Hippowdon is a boon in its own right—it means you can run something that either helps check another Pokemon (e.g. SpD Rachi for Kyu, Cofag for Conk etc.) or literally anything else that doesn't exasperate an awkward GK Zeraora MU like Seis does. There are other things I could probably mention too but I think you get the gist of my post at this point.
To add to this, there are load of good Stealth Rockers that aren't even seeing play atm because of how Toad or FerroPex is needed.
Rhyperior
This is one that caught my eye early in SPL. Rhyperior was used several times as an offensive Stealth Rocker that could keep out common hazard removers with the threat of switching in on EdgeQuake or even a Swords Dance. Weakness Policy sets work too. Its lack of recovery and multiple weaknesses can hurt, but unlike Toad it brings serious firepower to the table, and it threatens Clef significantly.
Kommo-o
A Stealth Rocker that sits above Toad in the (outdated) VR. It can run numerous sets that make it hard to predict, but it usually ends up with Rocks/BodyPress/EQ/Filler. That Dragon typing and high bulk lets it switch in on numerous threats in the metagame, notably laughing at any Zeraora that lacks Play Rough. It can carry Poison/Steel coverage to punish Fairies, Taunt to punish Defoggers and passive mons, or Iron Defence to become an outright wincon. Packing a lot of firepower and unpredictability for a primarily defensive mon makes it awkward to switch in on, plus the threat of it being Belly Drum or Swords Dance when it first comes in.
Tyranitar
The OG Big Dude is struggling with the current metagame. It makes for a pretty dangerous Stealth Rocker on paper, but being walled to hell by Corv never helps a Rocker. Being abused by Clef doesn't help either. Still, it has massive bulk in a Sandstorm that's hard to overlook when scouting for a switch-in to dangerous breakers. It can usually eat one SE hit before replying too.
Mamoswine
Worth a mention as an offensive Rocker with great coverage, but doesn't have the bulk to survive Kyurem's Draco Meteor. Thick Fat lets it come in anything else though. Shame it usually has to be Choiced to get anywhere.
Jirachi
The thing known as Haxrachi makes itself known as a versatile threat, and it can squeeze Rocks into its set if need be. The threat of Iron Head usually forces out most targets slower than it that can't wall it forever or OHKO it. Ground and Dark weaknesses don't help its cause, but if you need a switch-in to anything not clicking a Ground move or Knocking at your door, Jirachi is a pretty good choice.
Cobalion
This time, it legitimately has a niche in OU. Rocks+Volt Switch+Decent offenses and bulk=yay. It has a pretty deep movepool and a dangerous speed tier that lets it threaten out most breakers with its STABs. Volt Switch does enough damage to Buzz and Corv to help prevent them Defogging and it's also pretty decent at abusing Clef.
Necrozma
Rocks? Check. Decent bulk? Check. Reliable recovery? Check. 2HKOing Corv on the switch with enough investment? Check. Great Ability? Check. Halfway decent typing.... Sadly no, but the rest of this package is neat. Rockers with in-built reliable recovery are hard to come by.
Mew
Suffers from the same problem as above: awful typing. Its lower offenses makes it less dangerous unboosted too. However, its bottomless movepool cannot be overlooked, and allows it to beat pretty much anything if you care enough about beating said thing. Base 100 speed is decent as hell too.
Terrakion
Usually can't fit Rocks into its set, but again a potential Rocker that beats out Defoggers.
Clefable
Yes it learns Rocks, no it will never use them.
 
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Necrozma
Rocks? Check. Decent bulk? Check. Reliable recovery? Check. OHKOing Corv with enough investment? Check.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but how does Necrozma OHKO Corviknight? The only way I can see it OHKOing is if it gets enough Calm Mind boosts or Weakness Policy gets activated for Heat Wave. I wouldn't consider that the same thing as investment, which to me usually means just enough EVs, and Necrozma can't really fit Rocks and Calm Mind on the same set anyway. I agree with a lot of your other assessments though and again, I apologize if I'm overlooking something.

Also, as an aside, I feel like some people are underestimating Seismitoad and the value it offers. I'm going to focus on the current meta, but even if Dracovish ends up getting banned in the future, I still think Toad could be a solid choice for a Rocker. The thing about Toad is that although it may not have as many "strengths" to offer and as much of an offensive presence as things like Jirachi or Rhyperior, it also has fewer weaknesses and often offers more utility. Water/Ground is one of the best typings and the removal of Hidden Power makes it even better, especially since right now there aren't many threatening Grass attackers. Access to utility moves like Scald and Knock Off on top of Rocks will always be nice for Toad as well. Seismitoad tends to give more defensive flexibility and can switch into more things than many other rockers; not being inherently weak to things like Excadrill and Rotom-Heat is a big benefit over things like Rhyperior, Jirachi, Cobalion, etc. However, one Rocker that I think does largely outclass Seismitoad in most ways (ignoring Water-immunity) is Kommo-o. The main things that I see as benefits for Toad over Kommo-o is not having to fear Brave Bird from Corviknight, not being as weak to Dragapult, and being able to hit switch-ins more consistently with Scald and Knock Off (which is a pretty big deal against two of the best Pokemon in the meta in Corviknight and Clefable). That being said, Kommo-o may outshine Toad in most relevant ways and is largely just a better Pokemon, but to me, Toad feels like a "safe," if not underwhelming at times, pick. So the way I see it, even when disregarding Toad's Water-immunity, it still offers consistent value and utility, and is a worthy consideration as a Rocker, even though it may not be as flashy as other options. I hope that my ramblings make some sense on why I think that Toad is more than just an answer to Dracovish that is useless/always outclassed when the other team doesn't have Dracovish.
 
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Sorry if I'm missing something, but how does Necrozma OHKO Corviknight? The only way I can see it OHKOing is if it gets enough Calm Mind boosts or Weakness Policy gets activated for Heat Wave. I wouldn't consider that the same thing as investment, which to me usually means just enough EVs, and Necrozma can't really fit Rocks and Calm Mind on the same set anyway. I agree with a lot of your other assessments though and again, I apologize if I'm overlooking something.
My bad, corrected. I misremembered. It actually 2HKOs on the switch-in if Modest 252. Sample set:
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Heat Wave
- Toxic/Photon Geyser
- Moonlight
STABless Nec seems counterintuitive, but Toxic is far better at crippling non-Steel hazard removers like Mandibuzz, and Heat Wave murders the Steels. Geyser is only useful for neutral targets, which isn't the idea of this set as a Stealth Rocker.
252+ SpA Necrozma Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 180-212 (45 - 53%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also, as an aside, I feel like some people are underestimating Seismitoad and the value it offers. I'm going to focus on the current meta, but even if Dracovish ends up getting banned in the future, I still think Toad could be a solid choice for a Rocker. The thing about Toad is that although it may not have as many "strengths" to offer and as much of an offensive presence as things like Jirachi or Rhyperior, it also has fewer weaknesses. Water/Ground is one of the best typings and the removal of Hidden Power makes it even better, especially since right now there aren't many threatening Grass attackers. Access to utility moves like Scald and Knock Off on top of Rocks will always be nice for Toad as well. Seismitoad tends to give more defensive flexibility and can switch into more things than many other rockers; not being inherently weak to things like Excadrill and Rotom-Heat is a big benefit over things like Rhyperior, Jirachi, Cobalion, etc. However, one Rocker that I think does largely outclass Seismitoad in most ways (ignoring Water-immunity) is Kommo-o. The main things that I see as benefits for Toad over Kommo-o is not having to fear Brave Bird from Corviknight, not being as weak to Dragapult, and being able to hit switch-ins more consistently with Scald and Knock Off. That being said, Kommo-o may outshine Toad in most relevant ways and is largely just a better Pokemon, but to me, Toad feels like a "safe," if not underwhelming at times, pick. So the way I see it, even when disregarding Toad's Water-immunity, it still offers consistent value and utility, and is a worthy consideration as a Rocker. I hope that my ramblings make some sense on why I think that Toad is more than just an answer to Dracovish that is useless/always outclassed when the other team doesn't have Dracovish.
This is true, Toad has his place in the metagame. But you can't tell me it deserves to be the 2nd most used mon in tour play (OUPL Week 1), behind only Clef. The main issue with Toad is its typing is a two-edged sword. While it is an excellent typing, it makes it harder to fit other defensive mons with similar typing on your team. And Toad's average bulk combined with its lack of recovery and susceptibility to status means you generally need a secondary check for any mon you want Toad to check, bar Vish. Martin made an excellent point on this above: Toad cannot check a Zeraora over a long match by itself, as it gets worn down by CC. But having Hippo as a secondary answer gets you 6-0ed by Grass Knot Zeraora. Having Clef as a coverage answer leaves you stuck in an awkward 50-50 every time it comes in. And WishPort wars tend to be lost by the side that burns the least Wishes. Toad burns through Clef's PP faster than anything else in OU. Why?
Passivity.
Toad is a passive mon, no getting around it. Yes it can "cripple" opposition, but can it force most mons out in a critical moment? No. That's ok, there's mons like Pex, which is also passive and can wall anything forever. Wait, Toad doesn't do that either. Toad doesn't do enough damage to punish mons staying in on it, nor can it wall threats forever. It has the worst of both worlds. Name another Stealth Rocker in OU that you can go hard Corv or hard Mandi into with little fear beyond losing your item or possibly a burn. And name another Stealth Rocker that these two actively force/stall out to boot. Sure Toad gets up Rocks, but it can't keep them up to save its life. Rhyperior might die easier, but there's no way you can go hard Mandi while that is on the board! You can't switch the birds into Cobalion, or they might eat a Volt Switch and be staring down a breaker. Toad neither does enough damage to be a tank, nor deals with enough to be a wall. It tries for both and ends with the worst of both. In most games, Toad usually gets up Rocks in front of another Toad! Which sums it up really.
 
This is true, Toad has his place in the metagame. But you can't tell me it deserves to be the 2nd most used mon in tour play (OUPL Week 1), behind only Clef. The main issue with Toad is its typing is a two-edged sword. While it is an excellent typing, it makes it harder to fit other defensive mons with similar typing on your team. And Toad's average bulk combined with its lack of recovery and susceptibility to status means you generally need a secondary check for any mon you want Toad to check, bar Vish. Martin made an excellent point on this above: Toad cannot check a Zeraora over a long match by itself, as it gets worn down by CC. But having Hippo as a secondary answer gets you 6-0ed by Grass Knot Zeraora. Having Clef as a coverage answer leaves you stuck in an awkward 50-50 every time it comes in. And WishPort wars tend to be lost by the side that burns the least Wishes. Toad burns through Clef's PP faster than anything else in OU. Why?
Passivity.
Toad is a passive mon, no getting around it. Yes it can "cripple" opposition, but can it force most mons out in a critical moment? No. That's ok, there's mons like Pex, which is also passive and can wall anything forever. Wait, Toad doesn't do that either. Toad doesn't do enough damage to punish mons staying in on it, nor can it wall threats forever. It has the worst of both worlds. Name another Stealth Rocker in OU that you can go hard Corv or hard Mandi into with little fear beyond losing your item or possibly a burn. And name another Stealth Rocker that these two actively force/stall out to boot. Sure Toad gets up Rocks, but it can't keep them up to save its life. Rhyperior might die easier, but there's no way you can go hard Mandi while that is on the board! You can't switch the birds into Cobalion, or they might eat a Volt Switch and be staring down a breaker. Toad neither does enough damage to be a tank, nor deals with enough to be a wall. It tries for both and ends with the worst of both. In most games, Toad usually gets up Rocks in front of another Toad! Which sums it up really.
Yeah, I agree that Toad's usage being so high is clearly due to Dracovish. What you and others have said about needing multiple defensive checks for common threats is true, and I feel like that's largely due to the inherent nature of some of the breakers. The strongest breakers in the meta right now can either only be reliably checked by a small handful of Pokemon that are otherwise largely irrelevant (Conkeldurr and Kyurem) or have enough unpredictability in their movesets that using a common defensive mon against them runs the risk of getting it blown up (Zeraora, as you referred to). There really isn't a Skarm/Bliss(Chansey) in the current meta where you can have a two mon defensive core and that's part of the reason why things like balance teams with four defensive mons have become so common.

Back to Toad though, he's clearly fighting an uphill battle against other Rockers - just compare his basestats to things like Kommo-o, Jirachi, and Hippo. However, I think that he can fit onto teams with three or four defensive mons without having to worry much about type redundancy because he does offer a significant amount of utility. You don't need him to wall things indefinitely if you have things like Corviknight, Clefable, and Pex to switch into. All Toad really needs to offer balance teams a lot of the time is Rocks, Knock/Scald on switches, and checking a few important mons like Rotom-Heat (and obviously Dracovish but I’m purposefully ignoring him at the moment), and Toad usually gets done what he needs to. Overall, I feel like Toad offers more utility than most Rockers and shouldn't really be viewed as a wall. Also, I'm not sure why you said, "Name another Stealth Rocker in OU that you can go hard Corv or hard Mandi into with little fear beyond losing your item or possibly a burn. And name another Stealth Rocker that these two actively force/stall out to boot." Again, I might be missing something, but I think that Corviknight and Mandibuzz actually switch into most of the prominent Rockers with fewer repercussions than they do into Toad; Kommo-o can't do much to either, Hippo can't damage either and has to Whirlwind, Excadrill doesn't threaten either much, Ferro can be annoying with Knock/Leech Seed/more rarely T-Wave but that's about the same risk as switching into Knock/Scald from Toad, Jirachi really doesn't threaten Corviknight or Mandibuzz much either. Also, Corviknight and Mandibuzz (especially with Taunt) can force out/stall out all of them. Those are five of the most prominent Rockers in OU and Knock/Scald from Toad is usually as good or better than whatever they can do against Corviknight and Mandibuzz, although that's not saying a lot.

Another random aside: I feel like it's also being overlooked a little at times with all of the talk about Clef, Dracovish, and Kyurem how good Corviknight still is. Yeah, the introduction of Zeraora hurts it but it's still one of the most reliable Defoggers I can remember in any metagame and hard walls major threats like Excadrill. Pressure stalling out some breakers like Kyurem and Aegislash is also often one of the best ways to deal with them. This is all anecdotal and I don't have any data to corroborate this, but I feel like it's harder in general to keep up Rocks in this meta, due to how reliable Corviknight is, how good/common Rapid Spin Drill is, and Heavy Duty Boots allowing Defoggers like Mandibuzz to not care about hazards.

So yeah, I kind of rambled again, but I think we're largely in agreement. Toad's value is significantly tied to Dracovish, and if Dracovish isn't on the other team (which could become more common in the future if it gets suspect tested, but I'm not going to speculate), Toad isn't as important to your team. However, I think that some people are too quick to dismiss Toad as just a Dracovish check with Rocks. I feel like that's partially a response to how disproportionately large Toad's usage is relative to how good of a mon he is, and that's fair, but I also think that dismissing him as useless without Dracovish (and I know you're not doing that, theotherguytm) is an overcompensation. That's really all I was trying to say but made it way longer than I needed to lol
 
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Anyone else feel like Excadrill is low key one of the best in the game? We talk a lot in this thread about threats who are able to hold the meta hostage and I think Excadrill is in that conversation, perhaps even moreso than ridiculous threats like Zeraora whose bulk up set is criminal.

If Toed is holding the meta together for Vish, Corviknight is the one that holds the meta up for Excadrill. A difference being that Corviknight is probably an A/A+/S pokemon regardless. Without Corviknight, I always find my teams weak against Excadrill given good grass types are just so hard to come by in Gen 8. Actually they don't really exist... sorry Celebi, you're OK but just not good enough. Said differently, so long as Drill is in the tier I think Corviknight will be A+ at minimum. Or you could say this, Excadrill is one Corviknight away from being the best all around offensive pokemon in the game. Tangrowth, please come back.

Most recently, instead of Corviknight, I have been using phys def HDB Pelliper as a hard Drill counter (u-turn into CB vish on the clefable switch ;)). Always wary of +2 Rock Slide though.
 
Anyone else feel like Excadrill is low key one of the best in the game? We talk a lot in this thread about threats who are able to hold the meta hostage and I think Excadrill is in that conversation, perhaps even moreso than ridiculous threats like Zeraora whose bulk up set is criminal.

If Toed is holding the meta together for Vish, Corviknight is the one that holds the meta up for Excadrill. A difference being that Corviknight is probably an A/A+/S pokemon regardless. Without Corviknight, I always find my teams weak against Excadrill given good grass types are just so hard to come by in Gen 8. Actually they don't really exist... sorry Celebi, you're OK but just not good enough. Said differently, so long as Drill is in the tier I think Corviknight will be A+ at minimum. Or you could say this, Excadrill is one Corviknight away from being the best all around offensive pokemon in the game. Tangrowth, please come back.

Most recently, instead of Corviknight, I have been using phys def HDB Pelliper as a hard Drill counter (u-turn into CB vish on the clefable switch ;)). Always wary of +2 Rock Slide though.
Yeah, I agree that Drill is great and the Rapid Spin buff is still kind of crazy to me after all of these years. I just want to mention though that it's more than just Corviknight that prevents Drill from being dominant (although it probably is the best Drill check). The introduction of Body Press hurts Drill because it allows mons like Ferro and Kommo-o (on top of Corviknight) to invest in phys Def and still threaten Drill extremely hard. Hippo is one of Drill's best partners but it also is one of the better answers to Drill as well. Mandibuzz with Foul Play usually beats Drill but it has to be more cautious of Rock Slide. Conk also adds insurance and prevents Drill from sweeping. But yeah, Drill is great, although I feel it's more a result of Drill's utility (Spin and Rocks) on top of its offensive capabilities (although it can obviously be very scary offensively as well, especially in sand and/or after Spin/SD).
 
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Again, I might be missing something, but I think that Corviknight and Mandibuzz actually switch into most of the prominent Rockers with fewer repercussions than they do into Toad; Kommo-o can't do much to either, Hippo can't damage either and has to Whirlwind, Excadrill doesn't threaten either much, Ferro can be annoying with Knock/Leech Seed/more rarely T-Wave but that's about the same risk as switching into Knock/Scald from Toad, Jirachi really doesn't threaten Corviknight or Mandibuzz much either. Also, Corviknight and Mandibuzz (especially with Taunt) can force out/stall out all of them. Those are five of the most prominent Rockers in OU and Knock/Scald from Toad is usually as good or better than whatever they can do against Corviknight and Mandibuzz, although that's not saying a lot.
Kommo's 4th slot is usually either Taunt, which stops them Defogging outright, or Iron Defence, which turns them into setup fodder. Defensive Corv rarely runs Brave Bird, as that implies dropping Body Press/Iron Head or U-turn, and Buzz literally never runs it. Since they are slower, going hard into Kommo before you know its last slot is not recommended!
200+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 124-147 (31 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Compare: 0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Corviknight: 63-75 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery)

Hippo I can agree on, but it at least has Whirlwind to prevent it being Roosted on. Toad doesn't even get that.

If you're running Rocks on Drill, that means it's suicide lead Drill, and your best play is to KO yourself with Steel Beam and prevent Defog, or go into Bisharp to try and punish it.

I think you're forgetting Ferro has base 94 Attack, Body Press, two 120+ BP STABs, as well as Leech Seed. Leech Seed+Body Press is a pain for Corv and Buzz to deal with, as Roosting causes them to take massive damage:
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 48 Def grounded Corviknight: 178-210 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed damage
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def grounded Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leech Seed damage
Ferro is not something these two can sit on!

Jirachi has enough variance in its sets between Scarf, Sub CM and defensive to make switching in a Defogger on it an issue until you know its set. And then it can just hax you out of a Defog and/or Roost, so Mandi especially can't afford to sit in front of it. Plus it can run Fire Punch, which at least annoys Corv.
252 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 126-150 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 100-118 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 105-124 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

So I think the cardinal sin Toad commits is not being able to punish them staying in on it and Roosting off its punishment. The others at least dissuade them doing that (or in Hippo's case, physically force them to choose between Defog and Roost before they are forced out), so they are weaker when they next come back in. Toad is entirely dependent on the rest of its team to punish Corv and Buzz simply Defogging and healing up in its face.
 
Kommo's 4th slot is usually either Taunt, which stops them Defogging outright, or Iron Defence, which turns them into setup fodder. Defensive Corv rarely runs Brave Bird, as that implies dropping Body Press/Iron Head or U-turn, and Buzz literally never runs it. Since they are slower, going hard into Kommo before you know its last slot is not recommended!
200+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 124-147 (31 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Compare: 0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Corviknight: 63-75 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery)
I think that Brave Bird on Corviknight is really good and often better than Iron Head, but that's just me. Regardless though, I don't think that you should just ignore Brave Bird on Corviknight. In March, Brave Bird was the third most common move used overall on Corviknight and appeared on 58.610% of all Corviknights. It gets less common as you move up the ladder, but it was still used on 44.411% of Corviknights at 1695 and 40.253% of Corviknights at 1825. Mandibuzz can also run Taunt as well and ends up in speed-creep wars with Kommo-o, which Kommo-o should win because it has a higher base speed (85 vs 80), but neither of them wants to run that much speed anyway. My point was just that even if they get Taunted, that's not as bad for Corviknight and Mandibuzz as getting Knocked Off or burned, and neither Toad nor Kommo-o really threaten either of them much - I guess unless Kommo-o is Iron Defense but then you give up Taunt. Clef is usually a smarter switch into Toad (and Kommo-o) anyway because you don't want to risk Corviknight getting burned, and Toad can Knock Off Clef. Kommo-o can't do much at all to Fairies like Clef, Hatterene, and Togekiss (Iron Head and Poison Jab don't really do enough damage unless you invest significantly in Attack for Kommo-o, but then you're weakening it as a defensive mon and hamstringing Body Press) and Dragapult also switches more easily into Kommo-o than Toad. That's why Toad, in my opinion, is able to more consistently hit things across the board on the switch, since nothing wants to get Knocked Off. Also, the point of Toad using Scald against Corviknight is to fish for a burn, so the damage calc isn't very relevant. However, as I said earlier, I do think that Kommo-o largely outclasses Toad, if you don't consider Dracovish. Just compare their basestats; it's like comparing Poliwrath to Dragonite. Toad does have Knock Off and Scald (two of the best moves in the game) going for it though.

If you're running Rocks on Drill, that means it's suicide lead Drill, and your best play is to KO yourself with Steel Beam and prevent Defog, or go into Bisharp to try and punish it.
I've seen people use Rocks on Drill well outside of being a suicide lead because it does a good job of scaring out things like Clef and Rotom-Heat. Also, trying to predict a Defog and going Bisharp against Corviknight is super risky because it gets OHKOed by Body Press. Going Bisharp from Excadrill is especially risky since Body Press hits Drill hard anyway.

I think you're forgetting Ferro has base 94 Attack, Body Press, two 120+ BP STABs, as well as Leech Seed. Leech Seed+Body Press is a pain for Corv and Buzz to deal with, as Roosting causes them to take massive damage:
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 48 Def grounded Corviknight: 178-210 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed damage
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def grounded Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leech Seed damage
Ferro is not something these two can sit on!
You can't use the calc to justify something being 2HKOed after Roost because the calc doesn't take into consideration that you get 50% of your health back by Roosting. Body Press won't out-damage Roost and Leftovers against Corviknight, so Corviknight can Pressure-stall it out. Body Press also doesn't do enough on average to out-damage Roost against Mandibuzz. Power Whip isn't doing much to either as well and Mandibuzz Taunting Ferro also shuts it down. As I said before though, I agree that Leech Seed, Knock Off, and T-Wave can make it annoying to switch Corviknight and Mandibuzz into Ferro.

Jirachi has enough variance in its sets between Scarf, Sub CM and defensive to make switching in a Defogger on it an issue until you know its set. And then it can just hax you out of a Defog and/or Roost, so Mandi especially can't afford to sit in front of it. Plus it can run Fire Punch, which at least annoys Corv.
252 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 126-150 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 100-118 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 105-124 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
If Jirachi is your Stealth Rocker (which was the situation I was talking about), it's probably not Scarfed or Sub CM, and you wouldn't need to switch in a Defogger against it unless you already knew that it had Stealth Rock. Jirachi haxing through stuff has always been an annoying possibility but it's extremely unlikely that it doesn't get Pressure-stalled by Corviknight and Mandibuzz with Foul Play does too much for it usually to be worth trying to hax down Mandibuzz.

Minimum amount of Foul Play damage vs minimum amount of Iron Head damage: <-- Best case scenario for Jirachi but if you're using a defensive Jirachi, you're probably going to invest heavily into SpDef anyway.
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jirachi: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

Maximum amount of Foul Play damage versus maximum amount of Iron Head damage (assuming Jirachi is Jolly):
252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 105-124 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO <-- Not sure why the calc didn't just say "guaranteed 4HKO" here btw

I get that Jirachi can hax down Mandibuzz, especially with getting Leftovers recovery on flinches, but I don't think the odds are good enough to rely on it.

So I think the cardinal sin Toad commits is not being able to punish them staying in on it and Roosting off its punishment. The others at least dissuade them doing that (or in Hippo's case, physically force them to choose between Defog and Roost before they are forced out), so they are weaker when they next come back in. Toad is entirely dependent on the rest of its team to punish Corv and Buzz simply Defogging and healing up in its face.
Yeah, I agree that Toad can't really stay in against Corviknight and Mandibuzz, but Corviknight and Mandibuzz don't want to stay in against it either and risk getting Knocked Off and/or burned. I still think that very few of the viable Stealth Rock users can scare out Corviknight and Mandibuzz, and I haven't really seen that happen in games either. Even if you want to say that Kommo-o with Iron Defense, Ferro with Knock/Leech Seed/T-wave, and maybe even Jirachi with Body Slam/Iron Head hax or just U-turning out are harder for Corviknight and Mandibuzz to switch into than Toad, it's not like Corviknight or Mandibuzz need to fear any of them too much anyway (except maybe Kommo-o with Iron Defense). The other thing is that Clef is usually a better switch in against things like Toad and Kommo-o regardless. Also, as for Hippo, if you switch straight into Corviknight or Mandibuzz when Hippo comes out, you just Defog away the Rocks he sets without taking any damage; there shouldn't be a reason to Roost unless you just choose to do so. If Hippo Whirlwinds after you Defog, you either get lucky and have a mon that threatens Hippo come out or you just repeat the process by switching back to Corviknight or Mandibuzz and continue to waste Hippo's PP, or force them to go for a double-switch.

So anyway, sorry for the wall of text and I hope it doesn't feel like I'm incessantly arguing with you when I think we largely agree anyway lol. My whole point is that I don't think that Toad is worthless without Dracovish, and that he is solid enough across the board and offers sufficient utility to still be considered as a viable Rocker, even though he's not as flashy and immediately appealing as some other options. I obviously get that it's hard to argue that a Pokemon like Seismitoad is better than things like Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Kommo-o, and I'm not doing that, but I think he has enough going for him to not be viewed as a total downgrade either.
 
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Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis / Toxic / Sleep Powder
- Earth Power / Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
Considering your slashes give the option to not even use grass STAB, I doubt you'd want overgrow. Even with Giga drain, idk what sort of low hp overgrow calcs you'd want to land with it, so you're probably better off with Chlorophyll just in case you run into a sun team.
 

TPP

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RMT Leader
April usage stats are here!

Code:
Combined usage for OU (1695 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Clefable           | 45.596% |
| 2    | Corviknight        | 28.053% |
| 3    | Dragapult          | 27.369% |
| 4    | Seismitoad         | 26.472% |
| 5    | Zeraora            | 26.032% |
| 6    | Excadrill          | 23.125% |
| 7    | Ferrothorn         | 22.074% |
| 8    | Dracovish          | 18.947% |
| 9    | Aegislash          | 17.764% |
| 10   | Rotom-Heat         | 17.607% |
| 11   | Hydreigon          | 17.577% |
| 12   | Bisharp            | 16.740% |
| 13   | Hippowdon          | 16.649% |
| 14   | Toxapex            | 16.064% |
| 15   | Kommo-o            | 13.899% |
| 16   | Conkeldurr         | 13.414% |
| 17   | Kyurem             | 12.913% |
| 18   | Mandibuzz          | 12.847% |
| 19   | Melmetal           | 12.054% |
| 20   | Cinderace          | 10.505% |
| 21   | Togekiss           |  9.684% |
| 22   | Cloyster           |  8.725% |
| 23   | Mew                |  8.624% |
| 24   | Gengar             |  8.566% |
| 25   | Tyranitar          |  7.246% |
| 26   | Terrakion          |  6.998% |
| 27   | Pelipper           |  6.696% |
| 28   | Hatterene          |  6.586% |
| 29   | Jirachi            |  6.339% |
| 30   | Hawlucha           |  6.128% |
| 31   | Mimikyu            |  6.082% |
| 32   | Grimmsnarl         |  6.028% |
| 33   | Keldeo             |  5.482% |
| 34   | Ditto              |  3.834% |
| 35   | Crawdaunt          |  3.804% |
| 36   | Necrozma           |  3.802% |
| 37   | Gyarados           |  3.781% |
| 38   | Ninetales-Alola    |  3.399% |
| 39   | Primarina          |  3.252% |
| 40   | Mamoswine          |  3.241% |
| 41   | Torkoal            |  2.934% |
| 42   | Toxtricity         |  2.869% |
| 43   | Darmanitan         |  2.774% |
| 44   | Venusaur           |  2.742% |
| 45   | Snorlax            |  2.568% |
| 46   | Incineroar         |  2.497% |
| 47   | Chandelure         |  2.469% |
| 48   | Shuckle            |  2.429% |
| 49   | Diggersby          |  2.411% |
| 50   | Rotom-Wash         |  2.320% |
| 51   | Obstagoon          |  2.130% |
| 52   | Salazzle           |  2.084% |
| 53   | Reuniclus          |  2.066% |
| 54   | Gastrodon          |  1.826% |
| 55   | Ribombee           |  1.668% |
| 56   | Weezing-Galar      |  1.666% |
| 57   | Mantine            |  1.595% |
| 58   | Charizard          |  1.546% |
| 59   | Weavile            |  1.538% |
| 60   | Vaporeon           |  1.517% |
| 61   | Sylveon            |  1.498% |
| 62   | Celebi             |  1.193% |
| 63   | Vikavolt           |  1.176% |
| 64   | Arcanine           |  1.160% |
| 65   | Barraskewda        |  1.149% |
| 66   | Rotom-Mow          |  1.067% |
| 67   | Sirfetch'd         |  1.046% |
| 68   | Quagsire           |  1.017% |
| 69   | Rhyperior          |  0.978% |
| 70   | Jellicent          |  0.966% |
| 71   | Gardevoir          |  0.963% |
| 72   | Bewear             |  0.944% |
| 73   | Heliolisk          |  0.819% |
| 74   | Flygon             |  0.792% |
| 75   | Whimsicott         |  0.785% |
| 76   | Polteageist        |  0.756% |
| 77   | Xatu               |  0.747% |
| 78   | Galvantula         |  0.728% |
| 79   | Dracozolt          |  0.669% |
| 80   | Cobalion           |  0.659% |
| 81   | Haxorus            |  0.652% |
| 82   | Durant             |  0.636% |
| 83   | Slurpuff           |  0.634% |
| 84   | Araquanid          |  0.612% |
| 85   | Golisopod          |  0.591% |
| 86   | Corsola-Galar      |  0.588% |
| 87   | Lucario            |  0.560% |
| 88   | Umbreon            |  0.545% |
| 89   | Gigalith           |  0.528% |
| 90   | Ninetales          |  0.503% |
| 91   | Sandaconda         |  0.482% |
| 92   | Espeon             |  0.474% |
| 93   | Toxicroak          |  0.470% |
| 94   | Bronzong           |  0.410% |
| 95   | Roserade           |  0.410% |
| 96   | Milotic            |  0.403% |
| 97   | Sigilyph           |  0.398% |
| 98   | Clefairy           |  0.397% |
| 99   | Blastoise          |  0.360% |
| 100  | Goodra             |  0.348% |
| 101  | Pincurchin         |  0.331% |
| 102  | Malamar            |  0.330% |
| 103  | Accelgor           |  0.324% |
| 104  | Copperajah         |  0.323% |
| 105  | Runerigus          |  0.321% |
| 106  | Froslass           |  0.310% |
| 107  | Barbaracle         |  0.295% |
| 108  | Sableye            |  0.293% |
| 109  | Indeedee           |  0.283% |
| 110  | Ludicolo           |  0.274% |
| 111  | Centiskorch        |  0.247% |
| 112  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.233% |
| 113  | Vanilluxe          |  0.230% |
| 114  | Vileplume          |  0.229% |
| 115  | Arctozolt          |  0.227% |
| 116  | Decidueye          |  0.213% |
| 117  | Noivern            |  0.213% |
| 118  | Tsareena           |  0.210% |
| 119  | Shiftry            |  0.206% |
| 120  | Frosmoth           |  0.196% |
| 121  | Abomasnow          |  0.191% |
| 122  | Drapion            |  0.188% |
| 123  | Coalossal          |  0.187% |
| 124  | Steelix            |  0.187% |
| 125  | Gallade            |  0.177% |
| 126  | Braviary           |  0.172% |
| 127  | Duraludon          |  0.170% |
| 128  | Lapras             |  0.162% |
| 129  | Machamp            |  0.159% |
| 130  | Lanturn            |  0.154% |
| 131  | Cinccino           |  0.153% |
| 132  | Meowstic           |  0.153% |
| 133  | Appletun           |  0.151% |
| 134  | Shedinja           |  0.150% |
| 135  | Claydol            |  0.148% |
| 136  | Drednaw            |  0.138% |
| 137  | Inteleon           |  0.135% |
| 138  | Pangoro            |  0.135% |
| 139  | Flapple            |  0.134% |
| 140  | Morpeko            |  0.132% |
| 141  | Rillaboom          |  0.131% |
| 142  | Orbeetle           |  0.129% |
| 143  | Avalugg            |  0.128% |
| 144  | Shiinotic          |  0.125% |
| 145  | Virizion           |  0.109% |
| 146  | Leafeon            |  0.107% |
| 147  | Hitmonlee          |  0.106% |
| 148  | Kingler            |  0.105% |
| 149  | Cursola            |  0.105% |
| 150  | Rotom-Fan          |  0.102% |
| 151  | Dugtrio            |  0.101% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
In terms of rises/drops, the only notable ones are Dugtrio and Ditto dropping to UU. As for usage changes, first I'll list the more notable changes and then I'll show the differences in usage from March to April for every mon on the viability rankings. I'll discuss the following while comparing the April usage stats with the March usage stats. Keep in mind that Melmetal was allowed for part of April due to the suspect test.

Rises:

#11 (18.014%) > #4 (26.472)

Seismitoad is back in business. It's the most reliable defensive stop to Dracovish and it also handles Rotom-Heat, which is something Ferrothorn and Toxapex are threatened by. Bulk up Zeraora sets were becoming more common and Seismitoad is a reliable answer to that as well. Wish Clef growing in usage helps Seismitoad out a lot with longevity issues that it normally has.

#12 (17.865%) > #7 (22.074%)

Ferrothorn has been making its way onto balance teams in order to take advantage of more passive mons such as Clefable, in order to set up Spikes and Knock Off any item. It was also a good punisher for Melmetal during the suspect test with Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs, which dealt a total of 58% to Melmetal if it used Double Iron Bash on Ferrothorn.

#13 (15.738) > #8 (18.947)

I'm not entirely sure how Vish usage went up, but more people have started using Choice Band and it's very tough to deal with, as even Ferrothorn and Toxapex have a chance of being 2HKO'd with hazards up.

#15 (13.162%) > #10 (17.607%)

Rotom-Heat has been gaining usage over time and it is a very solid mon that sports impressive defensive and offensive utility. Defensively it deals with Corviknight, Sand Rush Excadrill that lack Rock Slide, opposing Rotom-Heat and occasionally Zeraora if necessary. Offensively it is able to threaten common defensive mons such as Ferrothorn and Toxapex, and it also has the ability to threaten mons like Clefable and Seismitoad with status from Discharge and Toxic respectively.

#16 (12.765%) > #13 (16.649%)

Sand balance has been getting more popular since SPL ended and Hippowdon plays a big part in that. It not only provides Stealth Rock, Sand, and Whirlwind to phase out sweepers like Curse Snorlax, but it also checks a lot of big threats including Excadrill, Zeraora and Terrakion.

#32 (4.804%) > #25 (7.246%)

Operation save Tyranitar was a success.

Drops:

#5 (21.994%) > #9 (17.764%)

I don't think Aegislash itself has changed in the last month, so it might be more accurate to say that it dropped a few rankings because other mons such as Seismitoad and Ferrothorn saw a spike in usage to surpass it. Again, I'm not totally sure about this one, so if anyone knows better, feel free to chime in.

#7 (20.121%) > #12 (16.740%)

Hippowdon seeing more usage and Melmetal being in the tier for 2 weeks most likely lead to Bisharp seeing a drop in usage.

#8 (19.786%) > #15 (13.899%)

Kommo has to compete with Seismitoad, Ferrothorn and Toxapex as the team's physically defensive Water-resist and with the former two seeing way more usage, it's no surprise that Kommo-o has less usage. Additionally, unlike the other three, Kommo-o does not resist Steel, which meant that it was unable to resist Double Iron Bash from Melmetal and therefore was not as reliable at checking it as the others.

#10 (18.513%) >#14 (16.064)

Toxapex's slightly lower usage is most likely due to Ferrothorn having an increase in usage.
S Rank:

S+ Rank
#1 (41.809%) > #1 (45.596%)

S- Rank
#2 (34.093%) > #2 (28.053%)
#15 (13.162%) > #10 (17.607%)

A Rank:

A+ Rank

#5 (21.994%) > #9 (17.764%)
#17 (11.425%) > #16 (13.414%)
#3 (30.458%) > #3 (27.369%)
#6 (21.122%) > #6 (23.125%)
#12 (17.865%) > #7 (22.074%)
#16 (12.765%) > #13 (16.649%)
#9 (18.938%) > #11 (17.577%)
#8 (19.786%) > #15 (13.899%)
#11 (18.014%) > #4 (26.472)
#10 (18.513%) >#14 (16.064)
#4 (29.512%) > #5 (26.032%)

A Rank
#13 (15.738) > #8 (18.947)
#14 (15.519%) > #17 (12.913%)
#20 (10.872%) > #18 (12.847%)
#30 (5.621%) > #26 (6.998%)

A- Rank
#7 (20.121%) > #12 (16.740%)
#19 (10.904%) > #22 (8.725%)
#27 (6.837%) > #24 (8.566)
#28 (6.530%) > #29 (6.339%)
#48 (2.781%) > #51 (2.130%)
#42 (3.259%) > #39 (3.252%)
#21 (9.801%) > #21 (9.684%)

B Rank:

B+ Rank

#44 (3.042%) > #47 (2.469%)
#50 (2.553%) > #46 (2.497%)
#26 (6.877%) > #33 (5.482%)
#38 (3.565%) > #40 (3.241%)
#53 (2.218%) > #45 (2.568%)

B Rank
#18 (11.015%) > #20 (10.505%)
#43 (3.245%) > #35 (3.804%)
#54 (2.156%) > #54 (1.826%)
#24 (7.698%) > #32 (6.028%)
#25 (7.354%) > #28 (6.586%)
#34 (4.664%) > #30 (6.128%)
#41 (3.404%) > #36 (3.802%)
#59 (1.432%) > #53 (2.066%)
#60 (1.350%) > #66 (1.067%)
#65 (1.072%) > #52 (2.084%)
#32 (4.804%) > #25 (7.246%)

B- Rank
#40 (3.444%) > #37 (3.781%)
#68 (0.940%) > #69 (0.978%)
#39 (3.537%) > #50 (2.320%)
#37 (3.643%) > #41 (2.934%)
#45 (3.003%) > #44 (2.742%)
#73 (0.775%) > #77 (0.747%)

C Rank:

C+ Rank

#35 (3.003%) > #43 (2.742%)
#56 (1.903%) > #49 (2.411%)
#31 (5.586%) > #34 (3.834%)
#74 (0.726%) > #70 (0.966%)
#29 (6.324%) > #23 (8.624%)
#98 (0.364) > #96 (0.403%)
#23 (9.323%) > #31 (6.082%)
#33 (4.733%) > #27 (6.696%)
#36 (3.897%) > #61 (1.498%)
#52 (2.382%) > #42 (2.869%)

C Rank
#112
(0.221%) > #143 (0.128%)
#57 (1.556%) > #62 (1.193%)
#93 (0.432%) > #111 (0.247%)
#67 (0.999%) > #79 (0.669%)
#85 (0.570%) > #81 (0.652%)
#51 (2.511%) > #38 (3.399%)
#119 (0.183%) > #110 (0.274%)
#46 (2.978%) > #57 (1.595%)
#160 (0.082%) > #153 (0.099%)
#66 (1.003%) > #68 (1.017%)
#49 (2.744%) > #59 (1.668%)
#90 (0.482%) > #97 (0.398%)
#81 (0.651%) > #67 (1.046%)
#62 (1.240%) > #60 (1.517%)
#55 (1.907%) > #59 (1.538%)

C- Rank
#82
(0.623%) > #84 (0.612%)
#89
(0.491%) > #61 (1.160%)
#61 (1.289%) > #65 (1.149%)
#126 (0.152%) > #136 (0.138%)
#86 (0.551%) > #82 (0.636%)
#136 (0.127%) > #134 (0.150%)
#78 (0.665%) > #88 (0.545%)
#58 (1.437%) > #56 (1.666%)


Here are the usual questions:

1. How do you guys feel about the usage stats?
2. Are there any rises/drops that you expected or think are noteworthy?
3. Which mons do you think will continue rising and which mons will continue dropping?
4. Are there any non-OU mons that may rise up to OU next month? If so, what are they?
5. Are there any underrated/low usage mons that you can see getting more usage next month?
6. Why do you think Seismitoad and Ferrothorn went up in usage while Kommo-o and Toxapex had decreased usage?
7. What was the biggest surprise to you this month?
 
Last edited:

Ausma

d-d-d-d-d-d-d-doin' your mom
is a Pre-Contributor
#13 (15.738) > #8 (18.947)

I'm not entirely sure how Vish usage went up, but more people have started using Choice Band and it's very tough to deal with, as even Ferrothorn and Toxapex have a chance of being 2HKO'd with hazards up.
I'm pretty sure Vish use went up heavily in part to people starting to cite it as a huge problem for the tier. We were complacent with it for a while given how we had slapped on Water immunities or checks on our teams and called it a day, but given how it's hugely on the radar now, I'm not really surprised that people are trying to weaponize its raw strength once more--I believe the rising use of Band also reflects this stigma as well.

1. How do you guys feel about the usage stats?


They're about what I expected, honestly. Balance behemoths run the show--namely Clefable--and the best mons continue to be used.

2. Are there any rises/drops that you expected or think are noteworthy?


Honestly, Dragon spam losing its effectiveness due to the ubiquity of Clefable was something I was expecting, but something I didn't think would be so huge. Dragapult and Kommo-O are likely the biggest victims of this.

3. Which mons do you think will continue rising and which mons will continue dropping?


Clef is pretty much a meta staple, so I have no doubts it's going to stay on the rise. But, things like Kommo-O and Hydreigon hate Clefable and a lot of the threats running around currently; Hydreigon in particular is losing a lot of its luster with Dark and Ghost resists becoming a necessity in the tier, and it hates Clefable's notoriety.

4. Are there any non-OU mons that may rise up to OU next month? If so, what are they?

I can't really say I can think of any. The meta is so centralized around what's here that I feel like things rising is just kind of a difficult thing to ponder. The latest usage stats revealed no new fresh rises whatsoever, which makes me think that unless we do something, the meta is going to be incredibly stagnant.

6. Why do you think Seismitoad and Ferrothorn went up in usage while Kommo-o and Toxapex had decreased usage?


Easily it's been because of Dracovish/Clefable's rise in use. Kommo-O is extremely Clef weak, and Dracovish's rise warrants more use of Seismitoad and Ferrothorn--likely its best checks. Toxapex, though, I can't say for sure, but my guess is how Ferrothorn just outclasses it as a balance wall. It can just do more and run more flexible options than Pex, which is a one trick pony at the end of the day.

7. What was the biggest surprise to you this month?


Aegislash dropping was incredibly unexpected. I would have expected it to pick up with the drop of Kommo-O and the rise of Clefable, so I can't really say why it dropped, truthfully. Though, if I had to guess, it's likely that its flexibility that made it so strong pre-Home and early-Home has lost its effectiveness; that and it greatly struggles against Sand Balance. Toxic isn't nearly as bad as we once thought it'd be, likely due to Toxic immune Pokemon being everywhere in this meta.
 
1. How do you guys feel about the usage stats?
:clefable: :corviknight:
Not surprised by the usage stats, Clef remains a staple on everything minus HO. You are actively crippling yourself not running this demon on your team. Wishport is having a pretty clear effect on the metagame. That being said, I have been running a significant amount of Unaware Clef to counter all the setup sweepers that are popping up midladder. I've even been running LO Clef to some success. This thing is just so far above the rest of the metagame that it's crazy. Corvi remains Clef's best partner, and is one the most solid defoggers we've ever seen. I am surprised to see Ferrothorn that high and Kommo-o that low. But aside from that, there are pretty clear explanations for all of the rises and drops, minus one mon I'll bring up later.
2. Are there any rises/drops that you expected or think are noteworthy?
:Ditto: :Dugtrio:
Ditto was a pretty obvious drop, as was Duggy. Bisharp is sort of to be expected due to the Melmetal testing. Most noteworthy rises in usage (not including Clef) have to be Seismitoad, in response to the also rising Dracovish.
3. Which mons do you think will continue rising and which mons will continue dropping?
:Rotom-Heat:
Clef will not stop until it or Teleport is tested, this I can promise. I do think Rotom-H is my pick for most likely to continue rising. It just works its magic so well in this meta, being able to beat out or otherwise cripple all of its answers.
4. Are there any non-OU mons that may rise up to OU next month? If so, what are they?
:Venusaur: :Gyarados:(:torkoal:?)
Venusaur and Gyarados come to mind as things I have seen more and more as the month went on. Venusaur mainly for its defensive set, but also on Sun teams, and Gyarados as the setup sweeper it has always been. I could definitely see either or both of them rising to OU. On the topic of Sun though, Torkoal surprised me with how much usage it is seeing. I would not be too shocked to see it rise either. Shoutouts Thunder Pwoell.
5. Are there any underrated/low usage mons that you can see getting more usage next month?
:Weezing-Galar: :Jirachi:
I was really happy to see Galarian-Weezing ranked on the VR and it to hit top 60 in OU usage. I think that it is a great answer to many of the physical breakers in the tier without steel STAB. I'm going to be pushing for more usage on this thing wherever I go, I think it is a genuinely good meta answer. That being said, stacking fairy typing is not ideal with Clef on every team, and the rise of things like Salazzle. I do believe it's usage will rise as people try it out more. It is the single best combined answer to physical Zeraora and Conkeldurr imo. I also think Jirachi is being severely slept on.
6. Why do you think Seismitoad and Ferrothorn went up in usage while Kommo-o and Toxapex had decreased usage?
:Dracovish: :Melmetal:
Two words for toad, Banded Dracovish. Pex is not exactly a surefire answer to the menace that is BandVish. I was very surprised by Ferro's rise and Kommo-o's drop, as I mentioned above (before I saw this question). The juxtaposition between Tour usage and Ladder usage when it comes to Kommo-o is fascinating, truly. I suppose again, that you could put this down to the effectiveness of rocky helm Ferro during Melmetal testing, but it's hard to say. Might also in part be how free a switchin Kommo-o is for Clef.
7. What was the biggest surprise to you this month?
:Aegislash:
Agreeing with Ausma that Aegislash dropping so far in usage was a big surprise to me. Like Bisharp, I do believe this is the result of Melmetal testing, but I didn't think Aegis would drop this far. Might also be the rise in ghost resists popping up in the tier, but I'm admittedly not too sure.
 
Last edited:

Ruft

Let's cut loose
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Won OST Predictions
4. Are there any non-OU mons that may rise up to OU next month? If so, what are they?
:ss/primarina:
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def (or SpA) / 44 SpD / 136 Spe
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Moonblast

As the recent VR update reflects, Primarina is superb right now and I'm particularly a fan of Substitute + Calm Mind. If it manages to set up against a typical balance team (which isn't particularly hard) and the opponent lacks one of Power Whip Ferrothorn or Haze Toxapex, it is often able to win on the spot. I can definitely see it skyrocket in usage and rise to OU. For those wondering, the Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Adamant 252 Spe Conkeldurr, while the HP and Special Defense EVs with a Calm nature allow its Substitute to survive a Moonblast from uninvested Clefable. The rest can be dumped into either Defense or Special Attack.

There's another Water-type I want to highlight however:

:ss/crawdaunt:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet

I think Swords Dance Crawdaunt is a balance breaker that greatly appreciates the current state of the metagame. It forces out common Pokemon like Clefable and Hippowdon and can capitalize on this by using Swords Dance, allowing it to OHKO many bulky Pokemon like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Seismitoad (which is something Dracovish can only dream of doing), as well as Zeraora with Aqua Jet. Aqua Jet also allows it to revenge kill various other common threats like Excadrill, Rotom-Heat, and Terrakion (with some prior chip damage). In short, it can wreak havoc on many a team currently, especially typical sand teams.

Since Crawdaunt's usage was already decently close to the cutoff last month (3.804% with the cutoff being 4.52%), I can see it rising up to OU. If I'm right and Crawdaunt becomes popular, possible countermeasures could be increased usage of Kommo-o and Hydreigon and perhaps even investing enough Speed on Primarina to outspeed Adamant 252 Spe Crawdaunt. Fun fact: this requires 216 Spe EVs which happens to be just enough to continue running 248 HP and 44 SpD EVs (for the reasons I outlined above). Primarina's physical Defense is quite mediocre so contrary to what you might expect it can't take Crawdaunt's hits well (but it's not threatened from behind a Substitute of course).
 

p2

Banned deucer.

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Psychic Fangs
- Low Kick

Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog


Having experimented with a bit of Vish "semi-rain" (only abusers are Vish/Ferro) I think it's not hard to see why Band Vish is on the comeback. Band is stupid as is but Rain enables it even further letting it pull off outright ridiculous things like 70% to Max Def Ferro and Pex. Defo a lot of fun to use though, main problem is you need to be solid vs Zera, it's annoying as hell. Pelipper set can be whatever, but I think Boots works fine, but Specs or Scarf is 100% workable, I don't think Damp Rock is needed on these sort of teams either. It's also a weird archetype of rain because it doesn't run any Swift Swimmers so naturally it's a bit disadvantaged vs offensive teams, but I think this can definitely be overcome in the builder but its something you defo need to keep an eye out on.

I also don't have a lot of replays saved but here's 1 from when I wasn't using sand in stour
 
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