Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Psychic Fangs
- Low Kick

Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog


Having experimented with a bit of Vish "semi-rain" (only abusers are Vish/Ferro) I think it's not hard to see why Band Vish is on the comeback. Band is stupid as is but Rain enables it even further letting it pull off [...]
A secret spicy tech I tried on the ladder as yourself building pseudorain is Tailwind Pelipper ( with Twind over Roost in my case and Uturn over Defog).

You only get 2-3 turns (if you toxic'd and get ko'd) of +2 speed, but if your opponent has only offensive checks to Dracovish lef - well its gg.

Nice bonus: Fast Pelipper also isn't the worst mon thanks to Tailwind, so it isn't a completly wasted moveslot.
 

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Psychic Fangs
- Low Kick

Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog


Having experimented with a bit of Vish "semi-rain" (only abusers are Vish/Ferro) I think it's not hard to see why Band Vish is on the comeback. Band is stupid as is but Rain enables it even further letting it pull off outright ridiculous things like 70% to Max Def Ferro and Pex. Defo a lot of fun to use though, main problem is you need to be solid vs Zera, it's annoying as hell. Pelipper set can be whatever, but I think Boots works fine, but Specs or Scarf is 100% workable, I don't think Damp Rock is needed on these sort of teams either. It's also a weird archetype of rain because it doesn't run any Swift Swimmers so naturally it's a bit disadvantaged vs offensive teams, but I think this can definitely be overcome in the builder but its something you defo need to keep an eye out on.

I also don't have a lot of replays saved but here's 1 from when I wasn't using sand in stour
I have used "semi-rain" on a lot of my teams and I just want to add that u-turn is mandatory if you want to get the most usage out of Vish. Pelipper forces a lot of switches and helps maintain momentum, and often times you can switch back into Vish without wasting a step. For example, a common switch in to Pelipper is none other than Clefable. If the team has no Toed, it's a free kill. A lot of teams can't do anything about this. Or if they switch in Hydreigon, you can switch in Dragapult. A lot of your supporting cast with semi-rain Vish should be fast since you have 2 slow pokemon.

Semi-rain is legit
 
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Srn

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A lot of mans are reppin screens HO and trying to be more creative than just bish/cloy/zera/dd pult/lucha, and that's great. I think HO is an effective teamstyle that still allows for a lot of creativity, unlike a lot of balance and fat teams with well established defensive cores. And I'm here to vouch for just one option people oughta consider when making screens HO: power trip corv.

I came across power trip corv because I wanted my HO team to be less excadrill weak. The way I saw it, my options pretty much came down to gyarados, aqua jet crawdaunt, and power trip corv. I've tried using gyarados and I was thoroughly disappointed. It has to break through all the vish countermeasures like phys def ferro/pex and still deal with shit like defensive corviknight, specs kyurem, iron defense kommo, etc. I went for sub dd eq waterfall, thinking it'd be my best bet to beat pex and still damage dragons, but I just ended up disappointed in its lack of power and some rly pathetic bulk too. For example ferro can break ur sub with knock off if ur moxie or don't get the intimidate off, which sucks.

I didn't try sd or dd (lol) crawdaunt, but I wasn't super optimistic, as it has to deal with some similar issues, especially with dragons. Specs kyurem and any dragapult were gonna hard stop me, screens or no. Maybe its a fine option on HO still, i'll let others find out. I settled on trying out power trip corviknight, and the results are honestly not bad. First, the set
Corviknight @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Atk / 16 SpD / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Agility
- Power Trip
- Roost

The given attack evs+adamant nature lets u kill dragapult after a single bulk up and agility (+1 36+ Atk Corviknight Power Trip (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 278-328 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) It's a nice damage benchmark to hit as u may avoid eating a wisp this way. 208 speed lets you hit 444 speed after an agility, outspeeding zeraora and scarf togekiss. Before an agility, 222 speed outpaces adamant band ttar, which lets u roost on stone edges, and ur faster than the crowded max speed ada/modest base 60 speed tier, which hits 219. Then just max hp rest in sdef.


Imma post some replays where I won with it, so we can see its performance in action.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108572814 This is why I decided on weakness policy as the item of choice, got me out of a rly tight spot vs ladder god storm zone.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108586733 This is why I decided against lum berry, I can just keep setting up on scald mons and sweep even if burned. Lum berry wouldn't help me beat scald mons with haze either.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108583207 I thought keldeo would clean it out, but some unlucky misses+sdef drops+surprise scarf kyurem meant corv carried instead, and once again, the burn was of little consequence.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108578980 Necrozma was about to sweep but got crit, corv saves the day with the WP
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1105796552 some unreal hax in the first 10 turns but corv clinches it out, shows its very solid MU vs opposing screens HO.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1104332222 once the ww hippo is pressured by teammates, corv shows its awesome MU vs sand. This is a place where I'd count on crawdaunt but it may struggle with cc aegislash and pult.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1104031407 I was still lum at this point, but if I was WP, corv just set right tf up in front of a zeraora and clean swept. It still swept with lum, but w/e.


So yeah this set aint trash, if ur lookin to make an HO team consider it. Just get screens, pressure ww hippo and haze users, and you should be golden. I'll be making a post about necrozma when VR opens up too, as I think necrozma should be ranked higher. This set doesn't exactly push corv beyond S- or anything, so I'll show it off here instead.
 
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Teleport or clefable really should be banned, sicne the recent rise of teleport + wish clefable has been really hurting the ou tier as a whole. Maybe after if clef gets banned we can suspect melmetal in ou again.
 
I really do hope that clefable gets the suspect many have been asking for, because it is dumb having to face wish teleport clefable in every ou format battle. It just sucks to have to deal with the menace that is clefable.

One thing that really should be re-suspected however should not be gorilla tactics darmanitan, but zen mode galarian darmanitan. Zen mode darmanitan takes a lot of setup to make work and is way less broken than gorilla tactics darmanitan. Sashed Zen mode is far easier to shut down with priority moves, and ou is full of those. So since we know gorilla tactics + choice band/scarf was the reason galarian darmanitan ban was voted on in the first place, why can we not test only zen mode galarian darmanitan? I know complex bans are very hated but I just wish zen mode galarian darmanitan had a chance to shine, because it does not seem like ubers is the place for it. Gorilla tactics darm on the other hand, is fine in ubers however. My solution would be to ban gorilla tactics to ubers just for this generation, and if a less powerful pokemon gets it, then we can rediscuss banning darm as a whole again. How about we test ONLY zen mode galarian darmanitan in ou and then we call a vote on whether zen mode galarian darm is too much for ou? I just felt like when we banned galarian darmanitan, nobody bothered looking at zen mode galarian darmanitan, and just focused on getting gorilla tactics darmanitan out of ou.
 
I do agree that gorilla tactics darmanitan was way too good in ou, but we never looked into zen mode at all. I never felt like zen mode galarian darmanitan was the issue, it was a functional ou pokemon and never hurt the meta in the slightest. I wish we could just change the galarian darmanitan ban into a complex ban that just bans gorilla tactics to ubers, and that would allow zen mode to stay in ou, because zen mode galarian darmanitan gets almost no ubers usage as compared to gorilla tactics.
 
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McCoolDude

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I do agree that gorilla tactics darmanitan was way too good in ou, but we never looked into zen mode at all. I never felt like zen mode galarian darmanitan was the issue, it was a functional ou pokemon and never hurt the meta in the slightest. I wish we could just change the galarian darmanitan ban into a complex ban that just bans gorilla tactics to ubers, and that would allow zen mode to stay in ou, because zen mode galarian darmanitan gets almost no ubers usage as compared to gorilla tactics.

These couldn't be one post?

Also, the rationale behind banning gdarm over gtactics was thoroughly explained here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/darmanitan-galar-is-now-banned-from-ou.3658369/

Many people ran zen mode in OU and campaigned for it in the suspect thread. It was considered. It just wasn't within tiering policy. See this thread:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/on-the-radar-vol-2-see-post-336.3658022/
 
I do agree that gorilla tactics darmanitan was way too good in ou, but we never looked into zen mode at all. I never felt like zen mode galarian darmanitan was the issue, it was a functional ou pokemon and never hurt the meta in the slightest. I wish we could just change the galarian darmanitan ban into a complex ban that just bans gorilla tactics to ubers, and that would allow zen mode to stay in ou, because zen mode galarian darmanitan gets almost no ubers usage as compared to gorilla tactics.
Mate, since you're new here, there are a few things about Smogon that you should know.
  1. It's considered be in poor taste to make multiple posts in a single thread in quick succession without anybody else saying something in between.
  2. Only in the most dire of circumstances does Smogon ban something other than a Pokemon. Evasion, Shadow Tag, and Baton Pass were dire. A worse version of Huge Power was not.
  3. When it comes to Pokemon that change form in battle, the form change is treated as an extension of the base form. It's possible for the extension to be in a higher tier (read: banned from lower tiers), like with Mega Lopunny or Perfect Zygarde in the past. However, the extension cannot exist without the base form. This is why Mega Garchomp was not allowed in UU, and why Zen Galarian Darmanitan is not allowed in OU.
 
Being a somewhat new player to the gen 8 OU tier, i dont know if my opinion on the metagame holds much weight. However, i wanna share my thoughts about dracovish and clefable, even if it's stuff thats already been said.

A lot of times when im sitting in the team builder, the mere presence of dracovish in the meta shuts down many choices, or atleast puts a severe restraint on team archetypes that would probably prefer not having to run multiple checks to it, even if those checks are pretty good overall in the metagame(Ferrothorn, Toxapex). I have not seen much bulky offence in this tier, if at all, and i think it has to do with the sheer power of fishious rend, it pretty much getting a 1 hit or 2 hit ko on every mon that could fit on such a team, or just most of the metagame in general depending on if its scarfed or banded. I dont think it's a 100% completely braindead 'mon because i have managed to outplay it in different ways without toad or other water resistant/immune 'mons. But against those teams, a decent player will just wait for the right oppertunity to get it in and tear you a new one. I really, really hope we dont see it's hidden abillity sand rush available any time soon.

I have very mixed feelings about the pink demon known to us mortals as "Clefable". On one hand, it can enable so many different teams due to it's stats and movepool if you wanna get a bit creative. On the other, it does wishport so well that i dont think ive met more than a handful of teams without it these last couple of days. And you also gotta respect the life orb set, even if it's not nearly as common. Making the assumption that it's the standard wishport set can be quite painful if wrong. Wishport is just so damn good that im not even sure it's gonna change after the dlc drops because it might just be adding 200 new mons that all enjoy safe wishes. The typing, the movepool and it's abillities just makes it so amazing that it's in a league of its own, reflected in it's tiering.

Even if things look super stale right now, i dont think a suspect of any pokemon until the dlc drops is a good idea. With the addition of many old pokemons, some with new moves, the problems we have now might not be as severe with the powerful wallbreakers in the tier, derpvish included. However, i dont think clefable is gonna change much and we need to decide if we wanna keep good, reliable recovery for every pokemon in the tier with the ubiquitousness of wishport. I personaly would be a bit sad to see it go due to its fantastic movepool, but i would be willing to give it up if it meant that my opponents walls didnt last until turn 100.

PS: Really hoping they add back pursuit for no specific reason at all! *Cough* Save Tyranitar Fuck Ghosts *Cough*
 

Martin

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Hi, I've seen people giving their opinions on certain Pokemon, so I thought might as well also give some brief thoughts on the state of the meta atm.

I personally don't have any issues with Clefable. I feel like you still need to actually play well if you want to take proper advantage of WishPort—it's not a free heal by any stretch, as instead of circumventing risk/reward like Regenerator does you simply shift the risk off of the recipient and onto an often already-stretched Clefable, and I think the dominance of WishPort balance can largely be chalked up to just how specific sorts of builds are forced/encouraged when playing in the current meta. I think of the situation with Clefable is sorta similar to that with Landorus-T, in that it is a Pokemon that's already good that happens to help make teambuilding a much more reasonable prospect between its specific utility and the power level of the surrounding environment.

The biggest offender in this constrictive, high-power environment is obviously Dracovish, and I don't personally think the council should consider taking any action on anything else until this stupid Pokemon has been addressed. Fisheous Rend is a completely stupid move—it takes a Pokemon that would otherwise probably be mediocre and lets it remove resists provided the conditions are correct. You can also arguably point towards any number of other heavily constrictive attackers like Kyurem, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Zeraora, Hydreigon, Gengar, Aegislash, and Rotom-H, which are only really somewhat restrictive due to the inherent nature of a limited dex format (except for Gengar, which has traditionally been kept in check by the existence of Pursuit and which is all of a sudden is much harder to consistently deal with for defensive teams)

I actually don't mind the presence of those other breakers as much if only because it actually encourages players to experiment with different options when checking them—the reason I've always liked formats like this is because you can bring very niche Pokemon that have a good matchup vs something near the top and feel like their niche serve a meaningful purpose other than using it for the sake of it (unlike in full dex formats). The big difference with Dracovish is that the "experimentation" is either stacking multiple Water resists, using Rocky Helmet where it would otherwise be suboptimal (see: Helmet Ferro), and/or using a Pokemon that is largely inferior to other Pokemon outside of a Dracovish meta (namely Seismitoad). Its very existence also reduces the pool of options you have to help the matchups versus those other Pokemon, because Pokemon that could otherwise act as checks are pigoenholed into specific, otherwise potentially suboptimal variants, and as such we won't get a realistic image of whether they're actually managable until we've removed the elephant in the room. I just do not think that Dracovish is a healthy Pokemon, and I think the game would just become a lot more diverse and workable if it were to be banned.
 
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Being a somewhat new player to the gen 8 OU tier, i dont know if my opinion on the metagame holds much weight. However, i wanna share my thoughts about dracovish and clefable, even if it's stuff thats already been said.

A lot of times when im sitting in the team builder, the mere presence of dracovish in the meta shuts down many choices, or atleast puts a severe restraint on team archetypes that would probably prefer not having to run multiple checks to it, even if those checks are pretty good overall in the metagame(Ferrothorn, Toxapex). I have not seen much bulky offence in this tier, if at all, and i think it has to do with the sheer power of fishious rend, it pretty much getting a 1 hit or 2 hit ko on every mon that could fit on such a team, or just most of the metagame in general depending on if its scarfed or banded. I dont think it's a 100% completely braindead 'mon because i have managed to outplay it in different ways without toad or other water resistant/immune 'mons. But against those teams, a decent player will just wait for the right oppertunity to get it in and tear you a new one. I really, really hope we dont see it's hidden abillity sand rush available any time soon.

I have very mixed feelings about the pink demon known to us mortals as "Clefable". On one hand, it can enable so many different teams due to it's stats and movepool if you wanna get a bit creative. On the other, it does wishport so well that i dont think ive met more than a handful of teams without it these last couple of days. And you also gotta respect the life orb set, even if it's not nearly as common. Making the assumption that it's the standard wishport set can be quite painful if wrong. Wishport is just so damn good that im not even sure it's gonna change after the dlc drops because it might just be adding 200 new mons that all enjoy safe wishes. The typing, the movepool and it's abillities just makes it so amazing that it's in a league of its own, reflected in it's tiering.

Even if things look super stale right now, i dont think a suspect of any pokemon until the dlc drops is a good idea. With the addition of many old pokemons, some with new moves, the problems we have now might not be as severe with the powerful wallbreakers in the tier, derpvish included. However, i dont think clefable is gonna change much and we need to decide if we wanna keep good, reliable recovery for every pokemon in the tier with the ubiquitousness of wishport. I personaly would be a bit sad to see it go due to its fantastic movepool, but i would be willing to give it up if it meant that my opponents walls didnt last until turn 100.

PS: Really hoping they add back pursuit for no specific reason at all! *Cough* Save Tyranitar Fuck Ghosts *Cough*
Dracovish - agreed with the point that this mon really restraints team building as there are only that few reliable guys that can take it on or manage it. The scarf set is less menacing but the band set is pretty much brainless. Think everyone feels the same way towards this mon so let's hope a decision will be made on it soon.

Clefable - is an exceptional healer now because of Teleport's new mechanics. I do find Clefable slightly more manageable since the defensive set can be exploited if one is able to predict or just Taunt it in time. Anyway I doubt Clefable is the true monster around - isn't the Chansey line coming back as well once DLC drops? That thing gets Wish and Teleport as well. I know it's a bit of a theorymon, but we can extrapolate and now consider if it is truly Clefable that is "broken" or is it "Wish-Teleport" that is wreaking too much havoc.
 
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Dracovish - agreed with the point that this mon really restraints team building as there are only that few reliable guys that can take it on or manage it. The scarf set is less menacing but the band set is pretty much brainless. Think everyone feels the same way towards this mon so let's hope a decision will be made on it soon.

Clefable - is an exceptional healer now because of Teleport's new mechanics. I do find Clefable slightly more manageable since the defensive set can be exploited if one is able to predict or just Taunt it in time. Anyway I doubt Clefable is the true monster around - isn't the Chansey line coming back as well once DLC drops? That thing gets Wish and Teleport as well. I know it's a bit of a theorymon, but we can extrapolate and now consider if it is truly Clefable that is "broken" or is it "Wish-Teleport" that is wreaking too much havoc.
If anything needs to happen to Dracovish—and by extension, the other chimera fossil Pokemon—it's reducing Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak's base power to something more manageable, like 65. It's possible for this to happen via the DLC. Now, personally, I only have problems with Dracozolt, on account of there being no reliable way to deal with it besides Seismitoad. Dracovish, on the other hand, can be dealt with not only by Seismitoad but Toxapex and Ferrothorn as well, more so the former in my experience. I do, of course, understand the need to re-evaluate those Pokemon in the meantime, though.

As for Clefable, I'm honestly amazed at how few people run any counters to it at all, like Excadrill, Gengar, or Salazzle. And the WishPort combo can easily be shut down by Taunt, provided that Clefable doesn't just switch out normally. That said, I do understand how frustrating it can be to deal with, considering how it allows Clefable to escape handily if you don't have Taunt after all. Therefore, I'd say that it's not so much that Clefable is broken as it's the WishPort combo, especially if the rumors about the Chansey line getting it are true.
 
If anything needs to happen to Dracovish—and by extension, the other chimera fossil Pokemon—it's reducing Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak's base power to something more manageable, like 65. It's possible for this to happen via the DLC. Now, personally, I only have problems with Dracozolt, on account of there being no reliable way to deal with it besides Seismitoad. Dracovish, on the other hand, can be dealt with not only by Seismitoad but Toxapex and Ferrothorn as well, more so the former in my experience. I do, of course, understand the need to re-evaluate those Pokemon in the meantime, though.

As for Clefable, I'm honestly amazed at how few people run any counters to it at all, like Excadrill, Gengar, or Salazzle. And the WishPort combo can easily be shut down by Taunt, provided that Clefable doesn't just switch out normally. That said, I do understand how frustrating it can be to deal with, considering how it allows Clefable to escape handily if you don't have Taunt after all. Therefore, I'd say that it's not so much that Clefable is broken as it's the WishPort combo, especially if the rumors about the Chansey line getting it are true.
Yea Chansey has Teleport in its arsenal when I looked at its Gen 7 movepool. If the same holds true when Chansey makes its debut in Gen 8, all hell may potentially break loose..in other words, potentially nothing will die if Chansey doesn't die.
 
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That thing gets Wish and Teleport as well. I know it's a bit of a theorymon, but we can extrapolate and now consider if it is truly Clefable that is "broken" or is it "Wish-Teleport" that is wreaking too much havoc.
Yea Chansey has Teleport in its arsenal when I looked at its Gen 7 movepool. If the same holds true when Chansey makes its debut in Gen 8, all hell may potentially break loose..in other words, potentially nothing will die if Chansey doesn't die.
Wish and Teleport are incompatible on chansey since they are exclusive to gen1/LGPE and gen3 respectively, so unless the DLC adds a teleport move tutor Chansey can use, it is not running that anytime soon.
 
Only in the most dire of circumstances does Smogon ban something other than a Pokemon. Evasion, Shadow Tag, and Baton Pass were dire. A worse version of Huge Power was not.
I agree with everything you replied with except this point here is said like it's just tautology. None of the posts I have seen have clarified this so I'll ask- what is the issue with having a complex ban like "Gorilla Tactics is banned as an ability on Darm-G"?

The only argument I can think of against this is that little Johnny Pokeman goes onto Showdown for the first time and wants to use Gorilla Tactics on his favorite Pokemon Darmanitan-G but it says it's not allowed in OU.

Okay, how much more difficult is that to comprehend than Darm-G not being allowed in OU?

"Why's Darm-G banned?" "Oh, it's broken little Johnny."

"Why's Gorilla Tactics banned?" "Oh, it's broken on that Pokemon Johnny boy."

Am I missing something?
 
what is the issue with having a complex ban like "Gorilla Tactics is banned as an ability on Darm-G"?
Quite simple: The Can of Worms

Once a ban like this is implemented, it would open up loads of really crazy things to happen like testing if 680 BST mons are balanced at level 75, or even worse, the possibility that Zacian can be used only if you also have a Caterpie.

The amount of bans like these would make teambuilding ridiculous.

Complex bans like this also go into the territory of nerfing a Pokemon, something Smogon wishes to avoid at all costs. (Full ability bans are rare)

It's also quite likely that if Gorilla Tactics was baneed from OU and GDarm finds itself in UU, it'll just use that same set there.
 

Ruft

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I agree with everything you replied with except this point here is said like it's just tautology. None of the posts I have seen have clarified this so I'll ask- what is the issue with having a complex ban like "Gorilla Tactics is banned as an ability on Darm-G"?

The only argument I can think of against this is that little Johnny Pokeman goes onto Showdown for the first time and wants to use Gorilla Tactics on his favorite Pokemon Darmanitan-G but it says it's not allowed in OU.

Okay, how much more difficult is that to comprehend than Darm-G not being allowed in OU?

"Why's Darm-G banned?" "Oh, it's broken little Johnny."

"Why's Gorilla Tactics banned?" "Oh, it's broken on that Pokemon Johnny boy."

Am I missing something?
Zarel (the creator of PS) covers this very well here. Either way, this thread isn't exactly the place for policy review.
 
I agree with everything you replied with except this point here is said like it's just tautology. None of the posts I have seen have clarified this so I'll ask- what is the issue with having a complex ban like "Gorilla Tactics is banned as an ability on Darm-G"?

The only argument I can think of against this is that little Johnny Pokeman goes onto Showdown for the first time and wants to use Gorilla Tactics on his favorite Pokemon Darmanitan-G but it says it's not allowed in OU.

Okay, how much more difficult is that to comprehend than Darm-G not being allowed in OU?

"Why's Darm-G banned?" "Oh, it's broken little Johnny."

"Why's Gorilla Tactics banned?" "Oh, it's broken on that Pokemon Johnny boy."

Am I missing something?
The standard answer for why Smogon tries to avoid complex bans like the plague is "to avoid a slippery slope scenario where people want to unban Blaziken with Speed Boost or Arceus without any move stronger than 70 power or some other dumb shit like that", and while I despise that standard answer due to "slippery slope" literally being the name of a logical fallacy, I do think it's a compelling argument if you look at it from a different perspective.

From my talks with tier leaders and general observation of their posts, I've learned an important detail that often gets overlooked: running a tier is hard. Pokemon is a game with such an obscene number of interlocking parts, so not only is there a near-certain probability that many of those parts will be unhealthy for the metagame, it can take months of arguing and deliberating to determine what the core problems actually are. As a result, tiers often take many years to stabilize into a healthy metagame. Now imagine what would happen if complex bans became a common tool. Instead of trying to determine which of the 30-something Pokemon in the tier needs to go, tier leaders would be trying to figure out which of the countless combinations of Pokemon, ability, and/or moves should be banned. Clefable + Teleport? Clefable + Wish? Clefable + Magic Guard? Clefable + some combination of those elements? The problem is not that any of these decisions are necessarily flawed, but rather the sheer number of possibilities would grind the already-glacial pace of tiering to a halt.

Like Ruft pointed out as I was writing this, this really isn't the place for this kind of discussion. If you'd like to discuss this further, do so in PMs.
 
The standard answer for why Smogon tries to avoid complex bans like the plague is "to avoid a slippery slope scenario where people want to unban Blaziken with Speed Boost or Arceus without any move stronger than 70 power or some other dumb shit like that", and while I despise that standard answer due to "slippery slope" literally being the name of a logical fallacy, I do think it's a compelling argument if you look at it from a different perspective.

From my talks with tier leaders and general observation of their posts, I've learned an important detail that often gets overlooked: running a tier is hard. Pokemon is a game with such an obscene number of interlocking parts, so not only is there a near-certain probability that many of those parts will be unhealthy for the metagame, it can take months of arguing and deliberating to determine what the core problems actually are. As a result, tiers often take many years to stabilize into a healthy metagame. Now imagine what would happen if complex bans became a common tool. Instead of trying to determine which of the 30-something Pokemon in the tier needs to go, tier leaders would be trying to figure out which of the countless combinations of Pokemon, ability, and/or moves should be banned. Clefable + Teleport? Clefable + Wish? Clefable + Magic Guard? Clefable + some combination of those elements? The problem is not that any of these decisions are necessarily flawed, but rather the sheer number of possibilities would grind the already-glacial pace of tiering to a halt.

Like Ruft pointed out as I was writing this, this really isn't the place for this kind of discussion. If you'd like to discuss this further, do so in PMs.
I agree this isn't the place to discuss this but PMs (with who?) restricts the conversation to only a few opinions and reduces visibility. What I mean is I think it should be discussed more in some different forum because while I see the point there, I think it's pretty easy to see the distinction between mon + ability vs mon + move or other convoluted examples. An ability being banned on a mon is pretty straight forward.

And I can already imagine the counter-argument of Dracovish where you say "okay so we can get rid of Strong Jaw to balance him" but you can pretty clearly see on every move other than Fishious Rend the ability is fine on that Pokemon. Gorilla Tactics is busted on all sides.

Anyway besides that, I don't see much of a difference between Gorilla Tactics and Arena Trap. Gorilla Tactics is exclusive to Darm-G for the time being as Arena Trap was exclusive to Diglett, Dugtrio, and Trapinch. Which you might say "obviously the ability there is more broken because it's good even on those two bad mons" but Arena Trap was deemed fine in some previous gens and I think if one day there was a Flying type Arena Trap user that is bad, no one would care. So saying "we can't ban Gorilla Tactics because one day there could be a mon bad enough to not abuse it" is stupid also. Arena Trap was also reevaluated after Gen 7 so why can't we ban Gorilla Tactics for now and reevaluate it later if there's another mon introduced that has it.

I'm only arguing about this because while it might cause a bit more deliberation about balance, I think it would ultimately lead to better balance and diversity. Because Zen Mode Darm could be really cool to use right now, having a nice option to sweep through bulky shit in the current meta. And previous examples like Blaziken, Gothitelle...clearly should be allowed without their respective abilities, they aren't even close to the same power level.

I'm dropping it here, sorry for causing too much discussion about it.
 
What's good everyone, today I want to discuss about certain Fire types pokemon that I see have been getting lots more usage in OU and are amazing picks in the current state of the metagame.



Ever since the banned of Arena Trap, Incineroar has became an amazing defensive pivot in the tier, with great defensive stats and typing that allows it to come in on the CM Jirachi, Rotom-H ( Watch out for Toxic) and most notably the Ghost types of the tier, and with the ability of Intimidate it allows for Incineroar to most notably switchin against Banded Aegislash, DD Dragapult, Bisharp, and in some cases Zeraora if needed. Receiving Parting Shot this gen allows it to bring in its corresponding teammates in against the pokemon that wanna take advantage of Incineroar and making aggressive plays safer to do. With the strong utility moves of Knock Off, Taunt , Will-O-Wisp , and Toxic makes it rather annoying to come in on Incineroar of either losing your item or getting heavily crippled. Incineroar makes for a real great pick in the current metagame, and may take a while on getting used to, as well needing wish support to stay healthy in order to reliably check the mons its suppose to, but at the end it pulls off on doing a lot for teams that are using it, and something different if people wanna try out.



Salazzle is rising in usage in OU with its Nasty Plot + Toxic Corrosion set making it a very hard thing to switchin to since nothing is safe from getting poisoned and being crippled. This mon is a fantastic breaker not only putting a timer against the likes of Toxapex and fat ground types , but in the late game it can easily clean with Nasty Plot once its checks are gone and or weakened. Salazzle heavily pressure defensive walls such as the popular core Clefable + Toxapex + Corviknight and Ferrothorn. One of the greatest things about Salazzle is when it is against mons it can take advantage of, it will most likely get either a free toxic on whatever comes in thanks to Corrosion which then cripples the switchin making it easier for them to wear down. I really like pairing Salazzle with SubCm Primarina just of how they both work together and Primarina enjoys Toxapex on a timer and Ferrothorn being removed, letting Primarina set up Calm Minds behinds its sub.


Chandelure at first didn't catch my attention compared to the other fire types and having competition to the other ghost types in the tier, but after trying it out I found out it is a very strong balance breaker that can come in on Clefable and beat Mandibuzz. Another thing about Chandelure is the ability on crippling defensive checks with Trick after its no longer needed for wallbreaker, and a bonus for receiving Heavy-Duty Boots if you catch Incineroar or Mandibuzz removing their immunity from Stealth Rocks. Chandelure also has good coverage if you don't want the nuking power of Overheat with Psychic for hitting Kommo-o and Toxapex, and Energy Ball for Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Obviously Chandelure still faces competition with the other ghost types in OU , but it's just as threatening as the other ghost types.


This is one of my favorite mons in OU and everyone knows what it does in most cases , so I don't wanna go in full depth about it, but this thing is really amazing rn and so annoying facing when you have to face one , it's defensive typing allows it to check Togekiss, Corviknight, Zeraora, and Sand Rush Excadrill, it's a very potent wallbreaker with Nasty Plot, as well as having many opportunities on clicking Toxic, heavily crippling its checks. It amazes how this is the Rotom form for this gen , but a fantastic one at that.


I'm pretty sure I may have missed some notable things to cover, but I wanna know everyone's thought on these mons in the current OU metagame and if their usage will keep on increasing in the tier. :psyglad:
 
I wanna know everyone's thought on these mons in the current OU metagame and if their usage will keep on increasing in the tier.​
I'll readily admit that I don't use these mons enough considering how good they are.

Rotom-H is my obvious pick for best Fire type in the tier, I do think its usage will continue rising. It just does everything it needs to really well. I believe it to be a top 4 mon in the metagame.

Salazzle is probably the Pokemon I have seen the most outside of Rotom-H. The lizard is a real menace to the teams I build. Corrosion and it's ability to switch in on pretty much any Clef make it very solid in this Balance centric metagame. Not to mention its solid speed tier doing well into HO. Thing is tough as a wet paper bag though, and 4x weak to ground is rough.

Chandy is an old favorite of mine, and it acts as a solid special breaker. Though I would argue it needs some solid support in order to break effectively. Like any fire type, hazards are an issue, and HDB means you lose out on scarf or specs. It also faces some serious competition from arguably better ghost types, see Aegislash, Gengar and big boi Dragapult. I don't see it rising too much in usage because of this fact. But it certainly has a solid niche.

Incineroar is my pick for most likely to rise in usage aside from the evergreen Rotom-H. Being weak to the fighting type does hurt it a lot. But the rest of its tools are pretty solid. This wish metagame certainly helps it significantly. If the metagame were to change, it might be one of the hardest hit mons. I think this thing is severely underrated.
 

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Salazzle is honestly really fuckin nice. Being the fourth fastest (viable) attacker really does go a long way towards picking off certain offensive Pokemon (most notably outrunning+OHKOing Mold Breaker Excadrill—though that said its firepower is frankly pathetic unboosted versus neutral targets), and its typing+Corrosion is frankly a godsend in a meta where balanced cores consisting of some combination of Clefable/Ferrothorn/Toxapex are running rampant. It's kinda sucky that its STABs get walled by Seismitoad, especially considering that it's a common Wish target, but honestly that mon is so god-damned mediocre at most of its jobs other than denying Fisheous Rend that catching it with a Toxic is a pretty OK trade-off in the grand scheme of things. Both poison and fire are such good offensive types in this meta outside of that noteworthy blind spot that it's honestly hard to care about it provided you have something that takes advantage of Toad in the back. I posted about Salazzle+SubCM Primarina in Good Cores the other day and frankly it's really disgusting versus balanced teams—seriously, what deals with Primarina behind a Sub if you've got Pex poisoned? It's honestly fairly common for balanced teams to be forced into Pex every time Salazzle comes out, especially if you have something else pressuring Seismitoad to come in more than it wants to in the back, and short of fairly uncommon Heal Bell/Aromatherapy balances a poisoned Toxapex usually means the Primarina user has won—it's just stupidly potent.
 
Chandelure is a mon I feel definitely deserved to be put in the spotlight right now, it's indeed great at breaking balance and in general just nuking stuff. The mons that resist it don't even comfortably come in on such as kommo and mandibuzz just bc of how much fire blast/overheat does to them on the switch. The only mon that hard walls its stabs is Tyranitar (Though you could run energy ball to 2hko it) and with the mon being as middling as it is rn, I don't think that's much of note. This has made chandelure a mon I've enjoyed just throwing on teams because I know it will put work in. Another thing worth mention is both the great abilities it has, with flashfire and infiltrator. Eating hazards does suck for it but I feel even if it comes in a few times, it still leaves its mark. I feel specs is the only set I'd really ever consider currently but trying out cm sets, they've had merit as well being able to setup on things like clefable, corv ace (with flashfire specifically which I feel works best for cm).
 
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