Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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a chandelure set i think people aren't talking about enough heavy duty boots 4 attacks or heavy duty boots calm mind if you want to destroy clef. with shadow ball psychic flamethrower and either energy ball or calm mind you kinda destroy the entire team. it gets so many chances to come in or set up on corviknight and clefable. psychic cooks pex which is the #1 fire resists in the entire gen and nothing else can really take chandelure moves especially at +1. chandelure is definitely one of the premier wallbreakers imo that people never talk about and im hpapy people are talking about it
 
It's kinda sucky that its STABs get walled by Seismitoad, especially considering that it's a common Wish target, but honestly that mon is so god-damned mediocre at most of its jobs other than denying Fisheous Rend that catching it with a Toxic is a pretty OK trade-off in the grand scheme of things. Both poison and fire are such good offensive types in this meta outside of that noteworthy blind spot that it's honestly hard to care about it provided you have something that takes advantage of Toad in the back. I posted about Salazzle+SubCM Primarina in Good Cores the other day and frankly it's really disgusting versus balanced teams—seriously, what deals with Primarina behind a Sub if you've got Pex poisoned? It's honestly fairly common for balanced teams to be forced into Pex every time Salazzle comes out, especially if you have something else pressuring Seismitoad to come in more than it wants to in the back, and short of fairly uncommon Heal Bell/Aromatherapy balances a poisoned Toxapex usually means the Primarina user has won—it's just stupidly potent.
Salazzle + SubCM Primarina is fantastic core as well as one that I feel will see a big spike in usage just for how much you instantly destroy the ever so common Balance teams in the tier. SubCM Primarina was amazing at being a balance breaker that is also another great pick in the current metagama, and the only things that didn't care much for it was the not so common Power Whip Ferro and Toxapex which the only thing it could've done was Haze, but with Salazzle in the mix it easily beats both Ferrothorn and Toxapex after it gets poisoned , which just lets Primarina stay behind Substitue , set up , and just click buttons. I really won't be surprised if some Ferrothorns start running Power Whip just to have a fighting chance against Primarina, if a team ain't prepare for Primarina it can easily find opportunities and win games. I also have to agree about toad being mediocre in most scenarios , and I am guilty for using it , it's a really good pick for most teams , but idk how I feel just seeing so many toads in lots of teams and how easy it can be for something to easily take advantage of it or just wear it down easily, but that's probably just me not sure.

I feel specs is the only set I'd really ever consider currently but trying out cm sets, they've had merit as well being able to setup on things like clefable, corv ace (with flashfire specifically which I feel works best for cm).
I wouldn't be surprised if CM sets show up, it then allows for Chandelure to run Heavy-Duty Boots and considering there are many opportunity for it to set up with the mons you mentioned and access to really good coverage, it will really be a strong CM user and with proper team support it can do its job even better, this is definitely Chandelures time on the spotlight.
 
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a chandelure set i think people aren't talking about enough heavy duty boots 4 attacks or heavy duty boots calm mind if you want to destroy clef. with shadow ball psychic flamethrower and either energy ball or calm mind you kinda destroy the entire team. it gets so many chances to come in or set up on corviknight and clefable. psychic cooks pex which is the #1 fire resists in the entire gen and nothing else can really take chandelure moves especially at +1. chandelure is definitely one of the premier wallbreakers imo that people never talk about and im hpapy people are talking about it
Heavy Duty Boots Chandelure is fantastic - I used an all-out attacker with Energy Ball over CM
I tried using Psychic Chadelure in Psychic Terrain in OU

Psychic Terrain OU is fantastic right now: A lot of people rely on Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet and especially Mach Punch from Conk - with Psychic Terrain, suddenly all the Chandelure checks like Bisharp or Crawdaunt get destroyed

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 54.7 + 252 SpA Chandelure Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%)

252 SpA Chandelure Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (111.1 - 131%)
 
Heavy Duty Boots Chandelure is fantastic - I used an all-out attacker with Energy Ball over CM
I tried using Psychic Chadelure in Psychic Terrain in OU

Psychic Terrain OU is fantastic right now: A lot of people rely on Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet and especially Mach Punch from Conk - with Psychic Terrain, suddenly all the Chandelure checks like Bisharp or Crawdaunt get destroyed

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 54.7 + 252 SpA Chandelure Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%)

252 SpA Chandelure Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (111.1 - 131%)
Rn the only form of psychic terrain is Indeedee...
:ss/indeedee:
who is better more offensive (male version) or more bulk and healing wish (female version)??
 
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Finchinator

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Everyone and their mother's have been talking about Clefable lately: Is Teleport Clefable broken? Is Clefable too "centralizing" in the metagame? Why is Clefable so common and will it continue to be? What makes Clefable as good as it truly is? etc.

I made a little video explaining this and figured it would be cool to post here. But also, this post is not just a shameless plug because fuck advertising. I want to hear what you guys think about Teleport Clefable relative to the other sets. I was looking into some deeper tournament usage and it takes up approximately 55-60% of Clefable we see on most people's teams in tournaments, but I feel like it is actually more heavy on the Wish set than that in reality. I think that so many variants of Clefable are great overall rn, but the WishPort one is far ahead of the pack in my personal stance. What do you guys think is the best for your teams and what do you think fits each archetype? Any techs that have not yet surfaced that you feel are worth showcasing? And do you think it has sticking power for the rest of pre-DLC and eventually post-DLC SS OU? Very interesting topic for discussion. Please note this is not a suspect or potential suspect discussion as it will not be touched before DLC no matter what happens at this point, but it is worth talking about because it is ridiculously good and I think that this thread could use some realigning when it comes to the topics at hand.
 
Everyone and their mother's have been talking about Clefable lately: Is Teleport Clefable broken? Is Clefable too "centralizing" in the metagame? Why is Clefable so common and will it continue to be? What makes Clefable as good as it truly is? etc.

I made a little video explaining this and figured it would be cool to post here. But also, this post is not just a shameless plug because fuck advertising. I want to hear what you guys think about Teleport Clefable relative to the other sets. I was looking into some deeper tournament usage and it takes up approximately 55-60% of Clefable we see on most people's teams in tournaments, but I feel like it is actually more heavy on the Wish set than that in reality. I think that so many variants of Clefable are great overall rn, but the WishPort one is far ahead of the pack in my personal stance. What do you guys think is the best for your teams and what do you think fits each archetype? Any techs that have not yet surfaced that you feel are worth showcasing? And do you think it has sticking power for the rest of pre-DLC and eventually post-DLC SS OU? Very interesting topic for discussion. Please note this is not a suspect or potential suspect discussion as it will not be touched before DLC no matter what happens at this point, but it is worth talking about because it is ridiculously good and I think that this thread could use some realigning when it comes to the topics at hand.
Excellent video. I know it's silly but I'll always be happy that I called this set right as it was taking off in "Next Best Thing". I know I wasn't the first to use it, but that'll always put a smile on my face lol! I think the WishPort set has incredible sticking power. Its potential upsides are enormous, and as the tier is flooded with new wallbreakers I don't imagine its utility will be any less appreciated. I think the problem is that so little can directly threaten Clefable without enormous risk. If the set does happen to be offensive, or spec'd to live certain hits, the results can be detrimental to the opponent's defensive core or potential offensive wincon. Things like Excadrill, Venusaur, Corviknight, etc., can push damage on Clefable, but they are quite literally playing with fire. I do really enjoy this type of versatility which Clefable has always been known for but has been brought to life in a more profound way in SS than ever before. I do wonder though whether Clefable is the issue or if it's the strategies it enables. Giving some of the bulkier wallbreakers another breath of life late in the game can be devastating, and stuff like Dracovish and Conkeldurr were already warping the metagame in a potentially unhealthy way before WishPort was available. Kyurem is another example of something that likely would have already been quite constraining before the Home updates. I do definitely understand and support the council's decision to wait until DLC drops to suspect things, though, as I do believe the metagame will need to brace for some enormous changes next month.
 
Honestly, I rather want to see a ban on Dracovish and suspect on Kyurem / Zeraora before Clefable is touched. I know that its usage is sky high and ridiculous, but for me this feels like the situation in Ubers, where Quagsire has huge viability, thanks to Zacian-C: The metagame forces the usage.

For example, if Fishious Rend Vish disappears, suddenly teams depending on Toad to check it can run a completly different mon in OU.

Of course, if Clefable turns out to be problematic even if some breakers leave the tier, feel free to suspect it (after the DLC drops)
 

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Honestly, I rather want to see a ban on Dracovish and suspect on Kyurem / Zeraora before Clefable is touched. I know that its usage is sky high and ridiculous, but for me this feels like the situation in Ubers, where Quagsire has huge viability, thanks to Zacian-C: The metagame forces the usage.

For example, if Fishious Rend Vish disappears, suddenly teams depending on Toad to check it can run a completly different mon in OU.
Considering that I have alluded to Dracovish and potentially Kyurem being touched BEFORE DLC and specifically said Clefable was only being touched AFTER DLC if it was in need of suspect attention, I do not understand the point of your post at all. Also, the comparison to Ubers is very off-base. Clefable is a top-tier Pokemon in OU that is good regardless of surrounding pieces to a large extent; you do not just stumble into being used >50% of the time. Quagsire is used solely because of 1-2 Pokemon it keeps in check thanks to Unaware. There is absolutely not one Pokemon you can pinpoint as a sole reason for Clefable's usage.
 
Considering that I have alluded to Dracovish and potentially Kyurem being touched BEFORE DLC and specifically said Clefable was only being touched AFTER DLC if it was in need of suspect attention, I do not understand the point of your post at all.
Ctrl+F 'Kyurem' no result from you. Ctrl+F 'Dracovish' no result from you. Maybe you are referring to another post in another thread?
If you meant the ~ 20 Minutes Video, I couldn't watch it.
Heck, even now I can't watch it.

Also, the comparison to Ubers is very off-base. Clefable is a top-tier Pokemon in OU that is good regardless of surrounding pieces to a large extent; you do not just stumble into being used >50% of the time. Quagsire is used solely because of 1-2 Pokemon it keeps in check thanks to Unaware. There is absolutely not one Pokemon you can pinpoint as a sole reason for Clefable's usage.
two small points:
1.
The idea behind the comparison between Quagsire and Clefable isn't about their role in their respective metagame, the idea is that - for me - their high usage is a circumstance of the restrictions placed on specific pokemon of their respective metagames. (note that high in Quagsire's case means that it literally is used at ALL in Ubers, don't quote me its actual % of usage, the fact that it exists as a viable option in ubers is saying enough)
2.

Of course, I am aware that Clefable is high rank even in National Dex OU, which provides atleast a limited scope about the possible future of this Gen's OU metagame: Which means even with different possible quote unquote "balanced" metgames, Clefables viability and potential power cannot be underestimated.

However, for Clefable to be suspected and to be put on the same pedestal as Galarian Darm is in my eyes completly absurd.
First of all, Clefable doesn't feel cheap or uncompetitive for a support Pokemon. Its moveset while flexible, is hindered by its rather lowish BST - which also means that in a proper metagame more Pokemon can rise up which can abuse its currently most played set, WishPort. As it is quite simple, the lower the BST for a defensive Pokemon, the either slower or weaker its offensive is. This means in a new(=after DLC/Suspect) metagame you are suddenly able to fit onto your mons moves like Taunt, Trick, Steel coverage, heck even Skill Swap -
there a lot of possibilities: With the important distinction that they are also great even against no Clefable teams: Tricking is as always useful against Corviknight / Pex, Taunt is obv great, Skill Swap can deal with Magic Bounce / Guts / Skill Link from Conk etc. etc.

Therefore, I still believe that its the current metagame itself that enables Clefable so much - and with proper bans / suspects / DLC upon us, its usage will actually greatly change imho - for the worse.
- - -
As for Tech choices for Clefable(in my case LO Clef): What surprised me was using Psychic on Clefable - while at first glance being used alongside Moonblast showcases that the coverage is super odd(you need Fthrower), the fact of the matter is, in Psychic Terrain cheeky Toxapex get obliterated by LO Clef, also it deals the most damage to Rotom-H, Cinderace and the very rare Salazzle. Obviously this moveset is only possible on PsychicTerrain/Lucha teams, which currently aren't viable after testing on ladder.
 

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Ctrl+F 'Kyurem' no result from you. Ctrl+F 'Dracovish' no result from you. Maybe you are referring to another post in another thread?
??? What thread are you even reading?





I have made my stances as tier leader as clear as possible; I have went well out of my way to be transparent throughout the entire generation and this thread is the first place I go to do that. You either just looked on the last page, which is silly because it is far less than 10% of this entire thread and only captures the last few days, or you just assumed incorrectly.


two small points:
1.
The idea behind the comparison between Quagsire and Clefable isn't about their role in their respective metagame, the idea is that - for me - their high usage is a circumstance of the restrictions placed on specific pokemon of their respective metagames.
This can be applied to any defensive Pokemon ever then; they are largely reactionary Pokemon, but my point is that Clefable would be a top reactionary option in the metagame no matter the supporting cast. When we dropped Melmetal, it was still easily the best Pokemon in the tier. Your argument holds absolutely no weight due to this because it is universally applicable no matter the metagame and you cannot simply devalue every defensive option in the context of every metagame.

Of course, I am aware that Clefable is high rank even in National Dex OU, which provides atleast a limited scope about the possible future of this Gen's OU metagame: Which means even with different possible quote unquote "balanced" metgames, Clefables viability and potential power cannot be underestimated.
Nobody cares about National Dex OU here. This also is irrelevant because of above, but yea that point does not really work in the favor of Clefable so much as it is just moot/irrelevant.

However, for Clefable to be suspected and to be put on the same pedestal as Galarian Darm is in my eyes completly absurd.
Just because one thing was suspected previously does not mean every other suspect has to be as good or as broken as it. Suspects are done given the context of the current metagame, not based on some comparative past-tense analysis that brings in older variants of the metagame. Putting it on the "same pedestal" is completely irrelevant and has no place in this thread, let alone a suspect discussion. I am not even on the brink of suspecting Clefable, as I alluded to multiple times in my last post and in prior posts, but this argument needed to be addressed because it should never be logic we resort to.
 
I have made my stances as tier leader as clear as possible; I have went well out of my way to be transparent throughout the entire generation and this thread is the first place I go to do that. You either just looked on the last page, which is silly because it is far less than 10% of this entire thread and only captures the last few days, or you just assumed incorrectly.
So you did post it in another thread earlier here in this topic about Kyurem and Dracovish, you didn't post it in your Clefable analysis above with the video, that is why I was surprised by your statement of
"Considering that I have alluded to Dracovish and potentially Kyurem being touched BEFORE DLC and specifically said Clefable was only being touched AFTER DLC if it was in need of suspect attention, I do not understand the point of your post at all. "
-> You meant posts which were 3 weeks ago.
Anyways:
My point is basically: Clefable discussion is odd in a broken metagame, which actually IS NOT broken by Clefable. To paint a more dramatic and obvious picture, imagine a metagame with only Mono Dragon types and one Fairy -> The dragons eat each other alive, but the fairy stands very strong in this metagame - Yes, that hypothetical fairy mon would be sky high in usage, but this is solely due to a broken metagame, not by itself. This extrapolated image is in my opinion in a obviously less dramatic form the current state of Overused. We are in a broken beats broken meta, with some fair mons peppered in. I count Clefable as a fair mon.

This can be applied to any defensive Pokemon ever then; they are largely reactionary Pokemon, but my point is that Clefable would be a top reactionary option in the metagame no matter the supporting cast. When we dropped Melmetal, it was still easily the best Pokemon in the tier. Your argument holds absolutely no weight due to this because it is universally applicable no matter the metagame and you cannot simply devalue every defensive option in the context of every metagame.
I don't understand your points here, please explain more clear -
1. how is it relevant that Melmetal got dropped shortly in OU for Clefable? As far as I remember, Wishport was one of the best support moves/teammotes for Melmetal.
2. why can it be applied to any defensive Pokemon? My point is that the highest usage of Clefable ever is due to the current metagame: Not Clefable shapes it this way, but truly broken mons do
(e.g. Vish, and as you made clear this isn't about Vish etc., just to emphasize its the metagame around Clefable)
3. I don't understand "how I devalue every defensive option in the context of every metagame.", please be clearer here.

Nobody cares about National Dex OU here. This also is irrelevant because of above, but yea that point does not really work in the favor of Clefable so much as it is just moot/irrelevant.
Why are you concentrating on the point about the metagame being National Dex OU but not on the matter that the metagame closest to DLC still puts it on a high spot? My point is simply that it IS undeniably a very viable Pokemon, that is literally all I am saying. Not more, not less. I didn't mention Mega Metagross, Kartana etc. etc. pp because I agree about Clefable's "standalone" viability(or as you call it "top reactionary option"), even with completely different circumstances but still being a similar metagame. I don't care about National Dex in any shape or form, its just - as said - a glance about Clefable's viability with its natural abilities, not being forced to run absurd sets, in the metagame most similar to what we can expect from the DLC soon.
 

Finchinator

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So you did post it in another thread earlier here in this topic about Kyurem and Dracovish, you didn't post it in your Clefable analysis above with the video, that is why I was surprised by your statement of
"Considering that I have alluded to Dracovish and potentially Kyurem being touched BEFORE DLC and specifically said Clefable was only being touched AFTER DLC if it was in need of suspect attention, I do not understand the point of your post at all. "
-> You meant posts which were 3 weeks ago.
It was literally this thread a few pages back. 3 weeks ago is not long at all. You are being ridiculously stubborn. I have been very transparent -- more transparent than any other tier leader to ever precede me. At this point, not only are you going out of your way to try and nitpick things, but you are also straight up ignoring the truth and facts. If this interaction did not directly involve me, I would very likely delete your posts right now, but instead I will make an example to explain the fallacies of your logic beyond what I already have so future users do not make the same mistakes.

Anyways:
My point is basically: Clefable discussion is odd in a broken metagame, which actually IS NOT broken by Clefable. To paint a more dramatic and obvious picture, imagine a metagame with only Mono Dragon types and one Fairy -> The dragons eat each other alive, but the fairy stands very strong in this metagame - Yes, that hypothetical fairy mon would be sky high in usage, but this is solely due to a broken metagame, not by itself. This extrapolated image is in my opinion in a obviously less dramatic form the current state of Overused. We are in a broken beats broken meta, with some fair mons peppered in. I count Clefable as a fair mon.
Your analogy is outright horrible and not applicable whatsoever. Calling a metagame broken instead of a Pokemon makes no sense. You need to reassess and lurk more if these are your honest takeaways.

I don't understand your points here, please explain more clear -
1. how is it relevant that Melmetal got dropped shortly in OU for Clefable? As far as I remember, Wishport was one of the best support moves/teammotes for Melmetal.
You are ignoring the fact that Clefable let Melmetal in for free, which not many other things did. In fact, a majority of the time I was sending Melmetal in, it was on Clefable. You are looking at this in a very one-sided fashion, just like all of your other arguments (besides the ones that are simply not applicable).

2. why can it be applied to any defensive Pokemon? My point is that the highest usage of Clefable ever is due to the current metagame: Not Clefable shapes it this way, but truly broken mons do

3. I don't understand "how I devalue every defensive option in the context of every metagame.", please be clearer here.
As I outlined thoroughly in my last post, defensive options tend to be reactionary to opposing offensive options. You use Hippowdon to check Swords Dance Terrakion, Swords Dance Bisharp, and Bulk Up Zeraora. You use Corviknight to negate the progress of common Stealth Rock setters and check things like Swords Dance Excadrill. This can be applied to most defensive staples in the metagame, including Clefable. Your logic is not applicable to Clefable only. Clefable checks plenty of things, but not a whole lot more than other strong walls and pivots. What makes it stand out is the supportive qualities it has with Wish and Teleport, giving it a very distinct niche and unmatched place in the current metagame. You have completely ignored this and it is very fundamental to understanding SS OU right now.
 
While WishPort Clefable is amazing, I do enjoy playing some of the more offensive variants of Clefable as well. That being said, many teams would still benefit heavily from Wish support in the absence of having it from Clefable. The remaining viable Wish users, at that point, would be Sylveon, Umbreon, Vaporeon and Jirachi. Did I miss any? I don't like the idea of running Sylveon and Clefable on the same team. Has anyone had any luck with the other three? I used Vaporeon extensively in the pre-Home era. I consider it to be an underrated pick for its ability to check Dracovish, and its Wishes are enormous.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
While WishPort Clefable is amazing, I do enjoy playing some of the more offensive variants of Clefable as well. That being said, many teams would still benefit heavily from Wish support in the absence of having it from Clefable. The remaining viable Wish users, at that point, would be Sylveon, Umbreon, Vaporeon and Jirachi. Did I miss any? I don't like the idea of running Sylveon and Clefable on the same team. Has anyone had any luck with the other three? I used Vaporeon extensively in the pre-Home era. I consider it to be an underrated pick for its ability to check Dracovish, and its Wishes are enormous.
Xatu is currently ranked in B-, which is higher than Sylveon, Vaporeon, and Umbreon, for what it's worth. Xatu also gets access to Teleport along with Wish and Magic Bounce is always nice to prevent hazards/status. However, Xatu isn't nearly as bulky as Clef and its typing hurts it. Gardevoir also has access to Wish alongside Teleport and could actually run the same exact Wish-Teleport-Protect-Moonblast set that Clefable does, but again, it's not overall as bulky, has a Ghost weakness/doesn't resist Dark, and the lack of Magic Guard hurts it. As you mentioned with Sylveon, you're trying to avoid having two Fairies on the same team as well. Gallade and Alolan Raichu both also have access to Wish-Teleport, but neither of them are really sturdy enough defensively to utilize it. So yeah, obviously nothing is going to be as good of a wish-passer as Clef, but I appreciate you exploring other options
:blobthumbsup:
 
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It was literally this thread a few pages back. [...]
1.What am I ignoring exactly, what "truth and fact" am I ignoring? Please be precise about what you are accusing me of doing. You make it sound like I type away mindlessly and have never played one match in this metagame and that I don't read what you type, just because I missed you mentioning Kyurem/Vish.

2. I never said you weren't transparent? I simply stated that I didn't find you mentioning Kyurem/Vish in the post right there and that I didn't saw the video. After that I thought you may have meant another thread, but you meant this thread. That's it.

3. You want to delete posts which discuss the meta? Very odd statement. It is not even discussion which derails the thread, it is about Clefable after all. While you wanted to start the discussion about how good Clefable is in the current metagame/ its sets, I wanted to point out that it feels kinda odd - in as I call it "broken" metagame - to discuss Clefable's might. It would be much more interesting to discuss its viability/power/sets in a "fixed" meta imho (and yes I am aware of the DLC/eventual suspects etc., just so you can't start with the ""ignoring this and that"" again)

Now let's move on:
Your analogy is outright horrible and not applicable whatsoever.
That statement literally doesn't mean anything. "Your points about Clefable are outright horrible and not applicable whatsoever." This doesn't say anything of substance, yet mirrors your statement. My analogy isn't to be interpreted alone, it has only but one purpose: to emphasize my statement about the whole OU metagame being wrong/feeling broken, and as a result, forcing the Clefable usage.
Calling a metagame broken instead of a Pokemon makes no sense. You need to reassess and lurk more if these are your honest takeaways.
It does make sense, if you simply realize that Pokemon are the foundation of games:
It basically means that the current OU metagame has to many broken Mons. There isn't a secret, illogical, hard-to-grasp statement behind it. Too many broken Mons in a tier, broken Metagame. If you are annoyed by me calling it broken Metagame instead of broken Pokemon in current OU, than be my guest and I'll change it. But nontheless for me the whole OU metagame right now is a knock-off spamming; wish-port using; broken Wallbreaker; same Pokemon usage and even King's Rock flinching bonanza.
What needs to be fixed exactly? I don't know, but as a consequence for me only two things are clear:

1. Clefable isn't to be called broken/currently suspectworthy due to the metagame
2. Vish needs to go. Will that fix the meta completly? Nah, I don't think so.

^This statement isn't to further suspect discussions, but to emphasize my current thoughts of this OU metagame.
You are ignoring the fact that Clefable let Melmetal in for free, which not many other things did. In fact, a majority of the time I was sending Melmetal in, it was on Clefable. You are looking at this in a very one-sided fashion, just like all of your other arguments (besides the ones that are simply not applicable).
Is this a test to see if I am ignoring what you are saying? Because you know yourself well that Melmetal can't switch into every Clefable set. Versions running Fire Coverage to punish Corviknight naturally dent Melmetal as well, 2HKO common sets, while also being faster than Metal.
Furthermore, in a Melmetal metagame, Clefable's fire coverage increases, as otherwise, as you stated yourself right now, Melmetal switches in for free, which is something everybody wants to avoid obviously. Which, if Melmetal were OU right now, would force the change, similarly to how Toxapex runs full Def to take on Dracovish.

As I outlined thoroughly in my last post, defensive options tend [...]
I'll be honest, I still don't get your point, even if you explained it so far. It is not that I don't want to acknowledge it, but I'll refer to it later in another reply, as I don't want to lose the progress in the other quoted and replied to paragraphs. Maybe I am tired or my English is rusty, but I won't forget this part. As I don't want to cut it out, I left it as "unresolved".


- - - WishPort in OU with other Mons - - -

I tried Wish Gardevoir in OU, my main annoyance with it is being neutral to Knock Off/ weak to Ghost, and having less bulk on both sides, otherwise it would have been an interesting choice, as it Moonblast packs a Punch even uninvested.


Problem Calcs for emphasis, feel free to insert relevant special/physical attackers:
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gardevoir: 84-99 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 341-402 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 374-441 (110 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Sorry if this is the wrong place for this but while I think dracovish and clefable are both suspect testable is it really practical to suspect either with such an massive meta shift in the near future
 
What am I ignoring exactly, what "truth and fact" am I ignoring?
That post about Dracovish 3 weeks ago. You treat it as if it being that long ago renders it null. The tier leaders don't simply forget about their posts from three weeks ago.
You make it sound like I type away mindlessly and have never played one match in this metagame and that I don't read what you type, just because I missed you mentioning Kyurem/Vish.
Yeah... Since your post from earlier makes it sound like it needed to be in the video with Clefable: (and it makes you sound a bit irritated that it wasn't there, but w/e)
So you did post it in another thread earlier here in this topic about Kyurem and Dracovish, you didn't post it in your Clefable analysis above with the video,
I never said you weren't transparent?
In a way, you did imply it since you felt like you didn't have enough information regarding the stance on Dracovish. Not to mention, that you never found this information in this thread, which could have easily be found using the search bar in the upper right corner.
You want to delete posts which discuss the meta?
Uhh yeah that's a moderator's capability if they deem posts as straight up loosing the focus of the meta. (Which does include massive walls of arguments)
It is not even discussion which derails the thread
Look, all I see here are big walls of arguments right now, which if you ask me, seems quite derailed from the discussion of Clefable.
I wanted to point out that it feels kinda odd - in as I call it "broken" metagame - to discuss Clefable's might.
I wanted to point out that it feels kinda odd to use the term "broken" metagame as outlined a bit later, but first:
That statement literally doesn't mean anything. "Your points about Clefable are outright horrible and not applicable whatsoever." This doesn't say anything of substance, yet mirrors your statement.
Read the next part of their post. Stop bending the words to make it seem worse than it is.

Second:
It does make sense, if you simply realize that Pokemon are the foundation of games:
You'd think a tier leader would know this already no? This just appears to be an obvious fact taken out of context.

now to finally address "broken" metagames:
It basically means that the current OU metagame has to many broken Mons.
Just use "A lot of broken mons" instead. You don't need to shove jargon in our throats. You said Broken Metagame means Broken Mons, so let's just use that.
Too many broken Mons in a tier, broken Metagame.
In which this metagame those threats could be banned. Banning has been used and worked for over a decade, so those threats could just be banned.
Is this a test to see if I am ignoring what you are saying?
Not everything is an attack against you. You don't need to get personal with any of this.
Clefable's fire coverage increases, as otherwise, as you stated yourself right now, Melmetal switches in for free
You just tried to piece an assumption onto a fact. You may want to go find some sources before making this assumption. (Not saying you're wrong here, it just seems like some random info you pieced yourself)

Oh yeah, and as seen through the move usage statistics for last month:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Moonblast 95.366% |
| Wish 69.769% |
| Protect 58.868% |
| Teleport 52.124% |
| Soft-Boiled 21.890% |
| Flamethrower 19.385% |
| Calm Mind 15.137% |
| Thunderbolt 8.673% |
| Stealth Rock 7.763% |
| Thunder Wave 7.593% |
| Aromatherapy 7.043% |
| Moonlight 5.050% |
| Fire Blast 4.370% |
| Toxic 3.414% |
| Heal Bell 2.767% |
| Knock Off 2.489% |
| Other 18.298% |
+----------------------------------------+
only ~20% of Clefable sets ran Flamethrower (and only ~4% ran Fire Blast) even with Melmetal around.
similarly to how Toxapex runs full Def to take on Dracovish.
Toxapex always runs full Def. It even did this in SM. (EDIT: my bad. See post below) What's this important for?
 
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Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Toxapex always runs full Def. It even did this in SM. What's this important for?
I'm not trying to draw this out even further and I agree with most of what you said, but I just wanted to point out that max SpDef was/is actually more common on Toxapex in SM. Here are the Pex spreads from October 2019, which was the last month before SS came out:
Spreads |
| Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 23.781% |
| Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 16.058% |
| Calm:248/0/8/0/252/0 3.908% |
| Impish:252/4/252/0/0/0 2.958% |
| Bold:248/0/252/0/8/0 2.849% |
| Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 2.368% |
| Other 48.078%
Max SpDef was also still the most common Pex spread in SM last month. Compare that to the most recent Pex spreads in SS:
Spreads |
| Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 42.103% |
| Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 6.307% |
| Impish:252/4/252/0/0/0 4.537% |
| Bold:248/0/252/0/8/0 3.785% |
| Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 2.126% |
| Impish:252/0/252/0/4/0 1.530% |
| Other 39.612%
Now, obviously SM and SS are very different metagames and you can't fully attribute anything to one Pokemon, but I do think a case can be made that the presence of Dracovish has likely caused a significant decrease in the diversity of Toxapex spreads. The same could probably be said about Ferrothorn as well, but I'm more hesitant to blame Dracovish as much for that because of other things like the introduction of Body Press.

So again, I really don't want to continue on that argument and please don't think that I'm jumping into that whole thing with Pokeron and Finch lol. I also don't want to steer this thread down another spiral of reiterating arguments concerning Dracovish either. I just wanted to point out something about Pex that I have thought about as well, although I don't even know if there's much of a problem with the majority of Toxapex being phsyically defensive.
 
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Finchinator

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This is starting to derail; I stopped responding to him because there was no point conversing with a dude who clearly was too stubborn to understand the other side or accept that his position was incorrect. Now, we are already discussing the intricacies of SM sets just as a subset of a point we are trying to prove. It is not worth it to continue down this road, so let's drop it for the time being
 
To go down a different path of discussion, let's talk about something completely out of left field.

:steelix:
Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Iron Defense / Curse
- Body Press
- Gyro Ball / Stealth Rock
- Earthquake / Stealth Rock

I really do think that Steelix has some real untapped potential in this metagame. With fully invested physical bulk, this thing is one of the strongest body press users outside of Kommo-o (due to STAB). This thing takes hits it really has no business taking, especially from physically orientated HO. I have been using an Iron Defense set for the immediate bulk that it provides, allowing you to outpace boosts from Bulk Up users, Curse users and Dragon Dance users. I did want to do some testing of a curse set before I posted, but this seemed the perfect opportunity. Would highly recommend giving this mon a whirl if you have the time. Feel free to experiment with different sets and spreads, this is just my preference.
 
Fine, no more Clef+ Kyu+Vish.
- - -
Iron Defense and Body Press can be used by a multitude of Steel Type Pokemon such as Corviknight and if you are insane Ferrothorn. What specific difference does Steelix have that matters for it to be used in OU? Steelix is one of my favs, and i would love to give it a shot OU, just want to make sure that I pick the right teammates and of course reason for it.
 
Since the current conversation died I am going to bring up something that I haven't seen discussed. Which is, Unban Moody
Moody has traditionally been considered uncompetitive due to its random nature and allowing pokemon to break the evasion clause by randomly boosting evasion. As of generation 8 moody can no longer boost evasion or accuracy. Due to this, I feel like moody is no longer abusable to the point of getting banned to ubers and would breathe some much-needed life into the two current users that are languishing in untiered (Glalie + Octillery).
Some might say that moody is still inherently "uncompetitive". I will counter that point by saying that the move swagger was banned in generation 6 due to being uncompetitive but was unbanned in generation 7 when the confusion rate was lowered from 50% to 30%. Additionally, smogon allows the use of Bright Powder and Acupressure. Both of these affect evasion, yet are allowed in competitive play.
 
Since the current conversation died I am going to bring up something that I haven't seen discussed. Which is, Unban Moody
Moody has traditionally been considered uncompetitive due to its random nature and allowing pokemon to break the evasion clause by randomly boosting evasion. As of generation 8 moody can no longer boost evasion or accuracy. Due to this, I feel like moody is no longer abusable to the point of getting banned to ubers and would breathe some much-needed life into the two current users that are languishing in untiered (Glalie + Octillery).
Some might say that moody is still inherently "uncompetitive". I will counter that point by saying that the move swagger was banned in generation 6 due to being uncompetitive but was unbanned in generation 7 when the confusion rate was lowered from 50% to 30%. Additionally, smogon allows the use of Bright Powder and Acupressure. Both of these affect evasion, yet are allowed in competitive play.
It already was unbanned. It was then quickly rebanned because it's still bullshit.
 
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