Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

[Pokeron]

About Incineroar: I like running 136 Speed EV to guarantee outspeeding every version of Adamant Conkeldurr.

0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flare Blitz is also rarely used by me (if we obviously don't count Ferrothorn etc.), but it is nice that it can chunk Clefable if they try to Teleport out of the Parting Shot.

 

[TheArchangle]

What lures are people enjoying using and think are viable?
I'm personally looking for a Pex lure in particular, but I'd like to hear it all

 

[ReadTheMango]

What lures are people enjoying using and think are viable?
I'm personally looking for a Pex lure in particular, but I'd like to hear it all

Ebelt Zeraora is the obvious one. Grass Knot for Toad, Play Rough for Kommo-o. I'm also a fan of Lure Jirachi personally, have been for 3 gens now.

I don't particularly think it's viable, but I've been experimenting with Nasty Plot LO Lucario. At +2 it does OHKO a usual counter in physically defensive Pex. Another lure that I'm not sure about is Specs Tyranitar, which I have been seeing more recently.

There is also... the really bad lure I've been using lately

Don't use this

Weezing-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Strange Steam
- Fire Blast
- Thunder

252+ SpA Choice Specs Weezing-Galar Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Choice Specs Weezing-Galar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 384-456 (109 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Weezing-Galar Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 238-280 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Weezing-Galar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 296-350 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Weezing-Galar Strange Steam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 229-270 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Weezing-Galar Strange Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 396-468 (101.2 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Edit: Forgot about that demonic Roseli Belch Hydreigon set. That is the best Clef lure in the game.

 

[escarlata]

What lures are people enjoying using and think are viable?
I'm personally looking for a Pex lure in particular, but I'd like to hear it all

Jirachi is my go-to Pokemon whenever I need a lure, it literally has something for everything, and has 2 flex spots.
My main team runs Shuca Berry Jirachi with Fire Punch, to get rid of Excadril who think they can get a free spin on me, and essentially win the entry hazard race from there. Kasib Berry might work to bait in Dragapult or Aegislash but I've been having more success with Shuca Berry because random Ground coverage is more common.
I've also used her with Grass Knot in my rain team to get rid of Seismitoad for Dracovish to have free reign.
In previous generations, I've used Future Sight Jirachi to make it hard to switch Venusaur and Toxapex into my Crawdaunt, so that's something you can try I guess. (Psychic is another option, but Future Sight is ironically harder to play around)

 

[Katy]

hello,

i wanna talk about here in this thread. the wcop week for round 1 is over and we see a clear sign that clefable is one of - if not - the most metagame defining pkmn currently as it has a usage of 80% in the first week of wcop shown in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-world-cup-of-pokémon-2020-usage-statistics.3665240/

it is very obvious that clefable defines the metagame by its splashability with checking multiple pkmn with its specially defensive set, whereas clefable can also act like a wallbreaker with either leftovers or life orb-variants with numerous of sets whichever your team prefers. clefable sits on top of gen8 ou and its splashability is defined by the good sets it offers for the team, with what your team prefers to have.
furthermore a new set appears with knock off in clefables arsenal to knock off choice specs from pkmn like or , which helps clefable to check these threats better and to make them less effective, same goes for leftovers on pkmn like , which dont appreciate loosing these items in the long term. also wish-passing with teleport is so effective as , , and other breakers like furhermore it adds to the defensive capability with wish-passing to defensive threats such as .

it is clear by now that clefable sits there on top of gen8 ou and i am also interested in your thoughts on this mon.

ps: also i am very interested in the usage stat of clefable on the ladder, which will be shown either later today or tomorrow in the upcoming tier-shifts.

 

[StiltOwl]

What lures are people enjoying using and think are viable?
I'm personally looking for a Pex lure in particular, but I'd like to hear it all

I find Roseli Berry Belch Hydreigon to be pretty great. It can live Moonblasts from max SpA Clefable and OHKO back after a Nasty Plot.

 

[ScottyAdams]

hello,

i wanna talk about here in this thread. the wcop week for round 1 is over and we see a clear sign that clefable is one of - if not - the most metagame defining pkmn currently as it has a usage of 80% in the first week of wcop shown in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-world-cup-of-pokémon-2020-usage-statistics.3665240/

it is very obvious that clefable defines the metagame by its splashability with checking multiple pkmn with its specially defensive set, whereas clefable can also act like a wallbreaker with either leftovers or life orb-variants with numerous of sets whichever your team prefers. clefable sits on top of gen8 ou and its splashability is defined by the good sets it offers for the team, with what your team prefers to have.
furthermore a new set appears with knock off in clefables arsenal to knock off choice specs from pkmn like or , which helps clefable to check these threats better and to make them less effective, same goes for leftovers on pkmn like , which dont appreciate loosing these items in the long term. also wish-passing with teleport is so effective as , , and other breakers like furhermore it adds to the defensive capability with wish-passing to defensive threats such as .

it is clear by now that clefable sits there on top of gen8 ou and i am also interested in your thoughts on this mon.

ps: also i am very interested in the usage stat of clefable on the ladder, which will be shown either later today or tomorrow in the upcoming tier-shifts.

The thing with Clef is that I don't necessarily think the mon is "broken" in a conventual sense. It's very, very good and versatile in what it can do; offers role compression depending on sets. However, I do think it needs to be looked at for a suspect test (or the WishPort sets at the very least) due to being A) overcentralising and B- unhealthy in terms of the metagame.

 

[Finchinator]

Dracovish is now banned from SS OU!

Read more: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-4-voting.3665273/page-7#post-8486547

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->

Yes Dracovish is banned

 

[Sun King]

hello,

i wanna talk about here in this thread. the wcop week for round 1 is over and we see a clear sign that clefable is one of - if not - the most metagame defining pkmn currently as it has a usage of 80% in the first week of wcop shown in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-world-cup-of-pokémon-2020-usage-statistics.3665240/

it is very obvious that clefable defines the metagame by its splashability with checking multiple pkmn with its specially defensive set, whereas clefable can also act like a wallbreaker with either leftovers or life orb-variants with numerous of sets whichever your team prefers. clefable sits on top of gen8 ou and its splashability is defined by the good sets it offers for the team, with what your team prefers to have.
furthermore a new set appears with knock off in clefables arsenal to knock off choice specs from pkmn like or , which helps clefable to check these threats better and to make them less effective, same goes for leftovers on pkmn like , which dont appreciate loosing these items in the long term. also wish-passing with teleport is so effective as , , and other breakers like furhermore it adds to the defensive capability with wish-passing to defensive threats such as .

it is clear by now that clefable sits there on top of gen8 ou and i am also interested in your thoughts on this mon.

ps: also i am very interested in the usage stat of clefable on the ladder, which will be shown either later today or tomorrow in the upcoming tier-shifts.

Clef is such an interesting mon to me because I've really never seen anything so versatile. It can either be a top notch support mon or a sweeper with the ability to take advantage of low tempo stuff like a Toxic turn or a hazard setter not named Exca. I've found myself using CM Clef on pretty much ever one of my teams because it can solo a squad very easily, and it's incredibly good at capitalizing on passive mons to set up and threaten a sweep.

I think in the wake of the Vish ban, it'll be interesting to see how the meta adapts--including Clefable sets--because a lot of the anti-Vish stuff was complete setup bait for CM. WishPort stuff I imagine will be a staple throughout Gen 8, so I think Clef is always going to define the meta.

 

[Martin]

Dracovish is now banned from SS OU!

Read more: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-4-voting.3665273/page-7#post-8486547

Hide

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Yes Dracovish is banned

I can't wait to never use Seismitoad again

 

[McCoolDude]

So when looking to replace toad on teams, I've seen a lot of people not recognizing everything it did (really just boiling it down to the most important bits, water absorb and stealth rock).

Toad also:

• Stopped Rotom-H. Rotom-H had to boost several times and overheat to break past toad, and couldn't volt switch out for momentum when toad was coming in. (It also provided a fairly consistent cinderace switch-in)
• Provided toxic support
• Provided knock support against Clefable (a knock user that invited Clefable in)
• Provided scald support (lesser, but still important)
• Hindered (didn't really stop) bulk up Zeraora.

I'm sure I'm missing a few others. As for its replacement, I've been toying with a few Rhyperior sets that worked fairly well in the Vish meta (when not facing vish teams). With the exception of knock/scald support, Rhyperior accomplishes many of the things toad did while being an extremely threatening wallbreaker with Swords Dance.

Rhyperior

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance

 

[spatula]

Two mons I am interested to see come back after the ban are Rotom-Wash, who will likely have an easier time using its stabs now that seismitoad's usage will be lower (unlike Rotom-Heat who could get around toad anyway with boosted overheats/toxic), and Toxapex, who may run a more spdef oriented spread now that max defense is not needed for Dracovish.

 

[Astra]

Rain without Dracovish is gonna be really bad. Like, pretty bad. Most Swift Swim users available are really weak and often can't finish off targets and get KOed in the process. In fact, you can argue that Ludicolo's whole niche was to deter Seismitoad and the like to pave the way for Dracovish to spam Fishious Rend without any worry. You can argue that Swift Swim Seismitoad does the same thing too with Grass Knot. Other Swift Swim users like Drednaw and Barraskewda were too underwhelming to use, but with Dracovish, it's hard to justify using rain at all considering the whole archetype this generations revolved around weakening the opposing team for Dracovish to clean up while also taking care of its checks and counters. Other rain "abusers" are simply too weak to use alone, even with a Life Orb, which nearly all of them are pretty much forced to run.

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

Not counting pokemon that have already been said, I think that we will see rise in usage of a lot top tire pokemon also. Clefable will maybe start running more psychical defensive sets to check some of the threats that are giving defensive cores such as toxapex and fero a hard time (zeraora and conc respectivly). Rotom heat will also rise in usage since now it should not be that woried about switch ins since ban of dracovish removes a major one with toad.

 

[Spoontech]

Rain without Dracovish is gonna be really bad. Like, pretty bad. Most Swift Swim users available are really weak and often can't finish off targets and get KOed in the process. In fact, you can argue that Ludicolo's whole niche was to deter Seismitoad and the like to pave the way for Dracovish to spam Fishious Rend without any worry. You can argue that Swift Swim Seismitoad does the same thing too with Grass Knot. Other Swift Swim users like Drednaw and Barraskewda were too underwhelming to use, but with Dracovish, it's hard to justify using rain at all considering the whole archetype this generations revolved around weakening the opposing team for Dracovish to clean up while also taking care of its checks and counters. Other rain "abusers" are simply too weak to use alone, even with a Life Orb, which nearly all of them are pretty much forced to run.

Rains best mon is gonna be specs Pelipper lmfao

 

[Katy]

Two mons I am interested to see come back after the ban are Rotom-Wash, who will likely have an easier time using its stabs now that seismitoad's usage will be lower (unlike Rotom-Heat who could get around toad anyway with boosted overheats/toxic), and Toxapex, who may run a more spdef oriented spread now that max defense is not needed for Dracovish.

I think Toxapex also has more room in its moveslots again, being not forced to run Baneful Bunker on every team where it will find use is a good thing, but I think that Baneful Bunker still could see some Usage to poison the other physical threats like Zeraora.

Rain without Dracovish is gonna be really bad. Like, pretty bad. Most Swift Swim users available are really weak and often can't finish off targets and get KOed in the process. In fact, you can argue that Ludicolo's whole niche was to deter Seismitoad and the like to pave the way for Dracovish to spam Fishious Rend without any worry. You can argue that Swift Swim Seismitoad does the same thing too with Grass Knot. Other Swift Swim users like Drednaw and Barraskewda were too underwhelming to use, but with Dracovish, it's hard to justify using rain at all considering the whole archetype this generations revolved around weakening the opposing team for Dracovish to clean up while also taking care of its checks and counters. Other rain "abusers" are simply too weak to use alone, even with a Life Orb, which nearly all of them are pretty much forced to run.

I also think with Dracovishs departure (ban) and Rain being less effective now, that other weather teams will find a better place in the metagame again, like Sun could see some usage again.

 

[Ruft]

Here's my post-Dracovish metagame speculation:

While I'm sure Seismitoad will drop in usage, I think it'll still be a viable pick. It is much more free to run Special Defense investment now, allowing it to do a better job of checking the likes of Rotom-Heat.

Sand teams in general have been great for a while now, but they've generally been on the weaker side versus Dracovish. With it being banned, I can only see this team archetype getting better.

Toxapex has a much easier time fitting moves like Toxic Spikes now, as Baneful Bunker isn't as necessary anymore. With the recent rise of Choice Specs Hex Dragapult, I can see Toxic Spikes becoming very popular. It is also much more free to run Special Defense investment now, allowing it to check a wider array of threats.

With Seismitoad losing ground, Rhyperior could rise up as another Stealth Rock setter and reliable check to Rotom-Heat. Of course it provides much more than that, including a check to a wide array of physical attackers as well as Togekiss, and some great wallbreaking capabilities.

While rain certainly takes a huge hit from losing Dracovish, Barraskewda and Drednaw might just benefit from the decrease in Dracovish checks.

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

While I'm sure Seismitoad will drop in usage, I think it'll still be a viable pick. It is much more free to run Special Defense investment now, allowing it to do a better job of checking the likes of Rotom-Heat.

I mean, it could. But is gastrodron not a better choice for that job? What else can Toad check in area of special offense without recovery?

 

[Ruft]

I mean, it could. But is gastrodron not a better choice for that job? What else can Toad check in area of special offense without recovery?

Unlike Gastrodon, Seismitoad has Stealth Rock and Knock Off, providing great utility and role compression.

 

[Tysonslayer]

Toad usage will drop a lot now , with the removal of Dracovish , teams can afford running better rock setters in their teams an din some cases drop toad , but will still be usable to have check like Salazzle and Rotom-H.


These two can for go to drop some defense and be mixed now with no longer needed to be max physdef to lose against vish , it will be cool now seeing Pex have even more of a presence in OU with running mixed and forgoing something else now that it can drop Baneful Bunker.


With Toad usage gonna be dropping, I can definitely see Rhyperior gaining a lot more usage as a rock setter that can reliably check Rotom-H and Togekiss. It also a nice at keeping up its rocks versus the likes of Corv and a strong wallbreaker after a Sword Dance.


Now that Dracovish is gone rain teams are just in a bad spot rn , it still could be something to look out for with teams decreasing rain answers , but will not be as impressive as it was back then. Other weathers especially sand teams are gonna be a lot better with Dracovish gone making a really solid playstyle be even better now.

 

[Pabloaram]

Why Shuckle rise???
Also Toad would work better as Spdef invested with some Def to fight Zeraora better... Being Spdef is better to check Heatom and Salazzle.

 

[Random Passerby]

Why Shuckle rise???
Also Toad would work better as Spdef invested with some Def to fight Zeraora better... Being Spdef is better to check Heatom and Salazzle.

Shuckle rose because people are spamming Sticky Web teams to get Suspect reqs.
People will probably use Rhyperior to replace Toad as it can take hits better except from Water types. Rotom-W will probably be better because of less Toad. Ferro and Pex will be free to invest some bulk into SpD instead of full Def. Pex also drops Baneful Bunker for Knock Off / Toxic Spikes / whatever.

 

[Martin]

Sets

Rotom-W @ Leftovers / Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: We'll see how much bulk it likes
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Discharge
- Nasty Plot
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / Trick

Rotom-W @ Leftovers / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: We'll see how much bulk it likes
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic / Thunder Wave

I expect this 'mon is about to get noticeably better. Especially if something like Rhyperior starts to see popularity to fill the hole left by people wanting to run an actually good Pokemon over Seismitoad for their Rotom-H check, the number of Pokemon that actually want to switch into Rotom-W's STABs are limited, given the lack of available Grass-types. Obviously one of the big drawbacks is just not having that offensive presence versus Ferrothorn (which is why I think we might see it running Wisp more than Tox, obviously pending on how big a hit the ban has on usage of Gastrodon and Seismitoad), which is one of the big selling points of Rotom-H, but between not being pigoenholed into Heavy Duty Boots, having a secondary STAB that doesn't drop your SpA, being able to switch into Primarina sometimes, and having a better MU versus Rock-types that will likely rise to help keep Rotom-H in check, I think it might not be quite so awkward to use anymore. Really excited to try this out once the ladder has been fixed to get rid of Vish.

I've decided to discuss some other stuff that may be affected or otherwise provide commentary on how they look in this meta.


Speaking of Rotom, I expect these Pokemon will be the main defensive checks to Heattom going into the last bit of the pre-DLC meta. We all know what Kommo-O does so I won't harp on it—generally a good 'mon that isn't directly affected one way or the other by the lack of Dracovish, although it doesn't really have much reason to run mixed with Draco anymore. Rhyperior still fills that role compression niche of checking Rotom-H and setting SR while having a better MU versus common removers while not feeling like total dead weight the moment it has to check more than one Pokemon at a time. Gastro lacks SR/KOff but is otherwise largely a better Seismitoad. It also retains the ability to keep Rotom-W and other waters like Primarina in check too which is a nice boon, and it pairs extremely well with common hazard setters like Hippowdon and Ferrothorn too.


I expect people will have much more of a tendency towards running Adamant on this now. Don't really have anything else to say—not having to KOff before Vish can move is a massive boon for an already-great Pokemon.


These two are massive winners from this ban. They can finally run actual spreads! Do I expect them to never run max defense again? No. Body Press Ferrothorn especially will probably need all the power it can get, cuz let's face it: Body Press is sorta pathetic even versus SE targets. That said, I expect we're gonna see a lot more of mixed def Ferrothorn to more comfortably check stuff like Primarina+improve its matchup versus Kyurem when paired with a defensive Water that it'd need to click Freeze Dry versus, and especially nowadays with more Ferrothorn running Power Whip as their main attacking move I expect to see it looking to increase the pool of 'mons it can switch into and Seed. Toxapex, on the other hand, will probably regain its really oppressive defensive versatility from last gen—no longer needing to run Bunker is a big boon, as it leaves much more room to run moves like Knock Off, Toxic, or Toxic Spikes alongside Scald, and having the option for SpD/mixed def open is something I expect to see a lot of people experimenting with more.


Anything that was previously slower than Dracovish definitely benefits here. Of course, this is kinda common sense—surely anything slower than any other pokemon would benefit from it being gone? But I think it's worth hammering home here because being slower than Vish really does carry a lot more weight than it does with most other Pokemon due to the nature of its defensive counterplay.

 

[Pabloaram]

Gastro lacks SR/KOff but is otherwise largely a better Seismitoad

This is the problem with gastro.. too pasive and primarina set for free in gastro.
Gastrodon as recovery but with wishport clef everywere Toad still outclassed gastro in utilty/rc

 

[Martin]

This is the problem with gastro.. too pasive and primarina set for free in gastro

(sets up alongside CM)

(breaks sub)

(if it doesn't sub for whatever reason)

Primarina is not a problem here