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Tbh, my personal view on all of this is it has been a hot minute since an earthshaking ban that all but sent to Ubers a top 10, highly centralizing mon, and we should keep that in mind when discussing the metagame and what may or may not be broken. (This thread is only a week old.)
That said, how good WishPort Clef is, and its absurd SPL usage rate, is worrying. But my biggest issue with Clef really, is how good Life Orb Clef is, and how no-one is using it because they're using the defensive sets instead. This for me is a huge red flag, and I think a sign of why Clef is untouchable in the current metagame. It is simply needed to check way, way, way too much. From Hydreigon to Dragapult and Keldeo to Kyurem, this mon is basically a requirement to hold the mess of threats in the tier at bay. But why is this? We have mons like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, who both were more than capable of holding these special breakers at bay last gen. And when you think about it that way, the answer to the question "What is wrong with OU?" is way too obvious...
The thing known as LORD VISH has been normalised. Its absurd damage output has just been accepted. I think everyone here needs a quick reminder of the power of LORD VISH.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 158-186 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It has a chance to OHKO the most physically bulky Water resist known to man on the switch if it's uninvested (which it always is).
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex, the wall to end all walls, is strong-armed into running physically bulky sets to soft check the thing if and only if it is scarfed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Because Banded 2-shots it on the switch. With no prediction required. Just a reminder that this is max Phys Def of a mon known for stalling out breakers and resisting the move in question. Toxapex has been seen running Baneful Bunker exclusively for Vish!
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even Ferrothorn struggles to hold it back. A quick reminder: Ferrothorn has no reliable recovery.
Everyone knows these calcs. So they slap a Water immunity on their team and forget about it. But this normally comes in the form of Seismitoad, who is not the best mon ever. Toad may provide Rocks, but it has no reliable recovery and cannot keep them up to save its life. So it has to be paired with WishPort Clef and... You have one of the thousands of generic balances out there right now. And playing with Toad against a team without Toad or Vish... Is painful. Toad's weak points have a habit of being excruciatingly pointed out over the course of 100 turns, and it will burn through your Clef's Wishes before theirs. And as SPL has shown, mons like Mantine and Rotom-M have cropped up to expose the weaknesses of teams that rely on Seismitoad. So you can play Gastrodon, or defensive Mantine instead. But at that point, you're running mons that belong on Stall, mons that serve no purpose beyond defensively checking threats. With these Water Immunities being as mediocre as they are, the rest of your team is going to have to carry most of the weight against non-Vish teams.
So you are left in a horrible 50/50, where you can either run the Water Immunity that has to be carried by an inch-perfect balance team, or you can take the chance of not running into LORD VISH. And running Dracovish isn't that much better. 50% of the time it's the ultimate breaker that claims a kill every time it comes in, 50% of the time it's mostly dead weight. It's the ultimate in matchup fishing, but this time everyone is caught up in it. Every time you click to play a game with a Water Immunity on your team, you're praying to see Vish or another Water Immunity so you're not basically a mon down, every time you click to play without one, you're praying to avoid it. And Clef is the only thing holding this joke of a meta together by keeping Vish's checks, and everything else, healthy.
About time someone wrote up something so accurate and fun to read at the same time, nice job. Seems like the meta that we're looking for needs more diversity and I like the direction of discussion that is geared towards just that. I will add from my own point of view the ripple effects that Vish causes. I won't go into insane detail but a summary should be serviceable to drawing a conclusion.
As theotherguytm already described one of effects of the Vish meta being that Clefable is forced onto teams because it has to check a ton of stuff and easily the most useful partner for Seismitoad, a needed role compression for many teams which includes a counter play to Vish. Toxapex being forced to use bunker in one of the slots also limits what the that monster does. This leads to other pretty pedestrian picks too if you want to use other things. The main flaw with Vish in the meta is that people are cornered into using an already small pokemon selection that decreases to very little options. If you decide to use a balanced approach to building you'll only be punished for doing so because you auto-lose to a giant portion of the meta because it's either too fast, too strong, or too bulky. Most teams resort to 4-5 bulky pokemon and then 1-2 breakers, this resembles more of a semi-stall meta/"balance" and using anything not that is going to be underwhelming. This forces many people to use strats that bypass these teams which then gives you the rise of HO with tons of set-up, breakers, and rng-based tactics. The skill required in this meta is barebones in many aspects as most games comes down to who has the pp to outlast who or can you wall every sweeper that is thrown at you. In this kind of meta you're are now forced to build in this linear way of making either lots of bulk and a breaker or a bunch of breakers to break down walls, anything left in the middle is Vish food. The best way I can sum it up is that even when Dracovish has 0 usage in a game, somehow, someway, it will still have the biggest impact during that game.
Along with the perspective and opinions of many poeple, the obvious conclusion that we have is to suspect test Dracovish.
About time someone wrote up something so accurate and fun to read at the same time, nice job. Seems like the meta that we're looking for needs more diversity and I like the direction of discussion that is geared towards just that. I will add from my own point of view the ripple effects that Vish causes. I won't go into insane detail but a summary should be serviceable to drawing a conclusion.
As theotherguytm already described one of effects of the Vish meta being that Clefable is forced onto teams because it has to check a ton of stuff and easily the most useful partner for Seismitoad, a needed role compression for many teams which includes a counter play to Vish. Toxapex being forced to use bunker in one of the slots also limits what the that monster does. This leads to other pretty pedestrian picks too if you want to use other things. The main flaw with Vish in the meta is that people are cornered into using an already small pokemon selection that decreases to very little options. If you decide to use a balanced approach to building you'll only be punished for doing so because you auto-lose to a giant portion of the meta because it's either too fast, too strong, or too bulky. Most teams resort to 4-5 bulky pokemon and then 1-2 breakers, this resembles more of a semi-stall meta/"balance" and using anything not that is going to be underwhelming. This forces many people to use strats that bypass these teams which then gives you the rise of HO with tons of set-up, breakers, and rng-based tactics. The skill required in this meta is barebones in many aspects as most games comes down to who has the pp to outlast who or can you wall every sweeper that is thrown at you. In this kind of meta you're are now forced to build in this linear way of making either lots of bulk and a breaker or a bunch of breakers to break down walls, anything left in the middle is Vish food. The best way I can sum it up is that even when Dracovish has 0 usage in a game, somehow, someway, it will still have the biggest impact during that game.
Along with the perspective and opinions of many poeple, the obvious conclusion that we have is to suspect test Dracovish.
Any post that supports suspect testing Dracovish is a great post.
I think an interesting experiment (that would never happen) is if Seismitoed doesn't exist. What will happen then? If the meta falls apart then you have an issue. In theory, if one pokemon is holding together the tier that indicates that something is broken.
I think a similar issue would happen with Excadrill if you removed Corviknight, which is why the thing is so damn prevalent. But that's a lesser issue compared to #SuspectVish
I think a similar issue would happen with Excadrill if you removed Corviknight, which is why the thing is so damn prevalent. But that's a lesser issue compared to #SuspectVish
Suspect Exca!! Nah just kidding...
I think Toad has more utilty other than check Vish as some people say about rol compresion.. Toad and Clefable has nearly same stats but the movelist and typing/ability is the reason of being so prominent.
I am ok with #SuspectVish
Tbh, my personal view on all of this is it has been a hot minute since an earthshaking ban that all but sent to Ubers a top 10, highly centralizing mon, and we should keep that in mind when discussing the metagame and what may or may not be broken. (This thread is only a week old.)
That said, how good WishPort Clef is, and its absurd SPL usage rate, is worrying. But my biggest issue with Clef really, is how good Life Orb Clef is, and how no-one is using it because they're using the defensive sets instead. This for me is a huge red flag, and I think a sign of why Clef is untouchable in the current metagame. It is simply needed to check way, way, way too much. From Hydreigon to Dragapult and Keldeo to Kyurem, this mon is basically a requirement to hold the mess of threats in the tier at bay. But why is this? We have mons like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, who both were more than capable of holding these special breakers at bay last gen. And when you think about it that way, the answer to the question "What is wrong with OU?" is way too obvious...
The thing known as LORD VISH has been normalised. Its absurd damage output has just been accepted. I think everyone here needs a quick reminder of the power of LORD VISH.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 158-186 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It has a chance to OHKO the most physically bulky Water resist known to man on the switch if it's uninvested (which it always is).
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex, the wall to end all walls, is strong-armed into running physically bulky sets to soft check the thing if and only if it is scarfed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Because Banded 2-shots it on the switch. With no prediction required. Just a reminder that this is max Phys Def of a mon known for stalling out breakers and resisting the move in question. Toxapex has been seen running Baneful Bunker exclusively for Vish!
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even Ferrothorn struggles to hold it back. A quick reminder: Ferrothorn has no reliable recovery.
Everyone knows these calcs. So they slap a Water immunity on their team and forget about it. But this normally comes in the form of Seismitoad, who is not the best mon ever. Toad may provide Rocks, but it has no reliable recovery and cannot keep them up to save its life. So it has to be paired with WishPort Clef and... You have one of the thousands of generic balances out there right now. And playing with Toad against a team without Toad or Vish... Is painful. Toad's weak points have a habit of being excruciatingly pointed out over the course of 100 turns, and it will burn through your Clef's Wishes before theirs. And as SPL has shown, mons like Mantine and Rotom-M have cropped up to expose the weaknesses of teams that rely on Seismitoad. So you can play Gastrodon, or defensive Mantine instead. But at that point, you're running mons that belong on Stall, mons that serve no purpose beyond defensively checking threats. With these Water Immunities being as mediocre as they are, the rest of your team is going to have to carry most of the weight against non-Vish teams.
So you are left in a horrible 50/50, where you can either run the Water Immunity that has to be carried by an inch-perfect balance team, or you can take the chance of not running into LORD VISH. And running Dracovish isn't that much better. 50% of the time it's the ultimate breaker that claims a kill every time it comes in, 50% of the time it's mostly dead weight. It's the ultimate in matchup fishing, but this time everyone is caught up in it. Every time you click to play a game with a Water Immunity on your team, you're praying to see Vish or another Water Immunity so you're not basically a mon down, every time you click to play without one, you're praying to avoid it. And Clef is the only thing holding this joke of a meta together by keeping Vish's checks, and everything else, healthy.
A doozy of a post, so it's covered in [SPOILERS] for convenience's sake
From the guy who predicted Cloyster would become a significant problem right before it spiked into a high-tier threat (not that that's relevant with the new powerhouses that are going around but stay with me), I present another interesting Pokemon that may have a small place in the meta even if it ends up being entirely ignored:
Bewear
Fluffy
Adamant
Choice Band
200 HP/252 DEF
Close Combat
Double Edge
Drain Punch
Earthquake
In a meta entirely choked up with heavy hitting physical attackers and frail special attackers, this thing does one thing in particular- force things to switch out and avoid taking a hit, or risk losing a life
Scrawling list of calcs
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Bewear: 306-361 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 486-572 (134.6 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 267-315 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Of note- Swords Dance Close Combat kills, but only when stacked with Life Orb)
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 355-418 (82.3 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 350-414 (108.3 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 161-190 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Zeraora Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 50-59 (11.6 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO (Just in case anyone was worried about a special attack doing anything to Bewear)
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 362-428 (114.1 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO (note if CC is used Zeroara drops its defenses, so it always dies from a +0 Earthquake)
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 162-191 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 258-304 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 160-190 (49.6 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (This is a SOFT check since even with drain punch Dracovish will 3HKO you if you switch into FR, and CB 2HKO's you- if Bewear can get in for free however, it one vs one's even CB Dracovish with DP since 18.5- 22.5% recovery ensures it's never OHKO'd by two FR's
Some of the hardest hitting Pokemon in the current meta find it hard to eat their metaphorical sandwiches with this thing around, and it capitalizes on that by either forcing the opponent to switch out and risk losing their Pokemon for little gain, or switch into a defensive Pokemon to try to stave off the Teddy Bear's wrath- that's where Choice Band comes in
Another scrawling list of calcs
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (I'm not sure who would switch Ferrothorn into a Bewear, but DP 2HKO's with CB and CC without, so even knocked off it's still a threat to this thing)
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Not sure where Clefable are standing now defensively but it 2HKO's even the bulkiest of variants with Double-Edge, and actually speed ties with uninvested variants (more on that issue later) )
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (2HKO's with SR, high coin flip to 2HKO without)
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 246-291 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 154-183 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Mandibuzz can't roost or it instantly dies to CC due to roost removing its flying type, and CC 2HKO's it regardless)
0+ Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. -1 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 46-55 (10.6 - 12.7%) -- possible 8HKO (Even after a -1 Def drop, FP does no damage whatsoever)
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 180-213 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO (one of the bulkiest versions of this Pokemon can't Roost on this thing because CC has a chance to OHKO with Corviknight removing its flying type, and Bewear undercuts Corviknight's speed by several base points, ensuring it's always slower unless your opponent gives Corviknight a speed reducing nature)
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. -2 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 211-249 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO(even after 2 CC's uninvested Corv can't KO with BB, forcing it to either Roost and take nonsensical damage or switch out/U-turn out
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 165-195 (46.6 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 103-123 (29 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
200+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 123-145 (28.5 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO (Kommo-O CAN switch into this thing but doesn't like taking hits from it, and risks taking a lot of damage from it if it gets into a Drain Punch/Body Press stall war because Bewear refuses to switch out)
Most of the common defensive walls get nuked due to this things higher than average attack -even while uninvested- and its typing granting it unique advantage against two of the bulkier Pokemon in the tier it (that being Corviknight and Mandibuzz)
Now, as for how it deals with the special attackers in the tier
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 181-214 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 452-534 (104.8 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 560-660 (143.2 - 168.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 350-414 (89.5 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 481-567 (111.6 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 432-510 (165.5 - 195.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 396-466 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 440-522 (102 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 354-416 (108.9 - 128%) -- guaranteed
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 377-445 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Most of them can OHKO this thing (even Kyurem with Draco Meteor on the C-Specs set), but they despise switching into any of its appropriate coverage moves, and unboosted Dragapult and Kyurem (i.e., no C-Spec) fail to KO if this thing is at full health, leading to the former losing over 50% of its health from an Earthquake and the latter being KO'd outright if it decides to stay in
So some of the hardest hitting physical presences fail to KO if they stay in and try to take this thing one on one, most of the prominent physical walls get ripped apart even at their bulkiest by this thing's main attacking moves, and special attackers can take it on, but don't like switching into most of (if not all of) its coverage moves
Now for the relevant problems with this Pokemon.
Hippowdon- try as it might, Bewear can't muscle through Hippowdon anything short of critically injured, and requires support to become more than set-up fodder against it
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 166-196 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Knock Off- It may come as a surprise (considering this is one of the few Pokemon in the entire current metagame who loves taking KO), but this Pokemon needs the added damage to KO some of the bulkier walls in this game such as Clef (max defense only- specially defensive sets get blown aside) Corviknight (you only barely 2HKO the bulkiest versions if you lose your CB, leaving you at risk of being roosted out into a Body Press/Brave Bird), and Toxapex (only barely 2HKO's the bulkiest versions with SR chip), meaning if any of those are hanging around on your opponent's team you need the extra damage to one vs one them (It also loses out on the 2HKO vs Dragapult and the OHKO vs Kyurem, though- provided you need none of those- it loves eating the otherwise universally problematic Knock Off, and uses the Pokemon that normally carry it (i.e. Zeroara, Bisharp, Mandibuzz) as switch in fodder)
Melmetal- it probably comes to no surprise, but this thing cannot switch in to check Melmetal
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Bewear: 190-224 (44 - 51.9%) -- approx. 8.2% chance to 2HKO
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Drain Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 236-282 (50 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Actually, it can (Drain Punch recovers 27.3-32.7%, ensuring it recovers enough to at least land one more attack), but it needs both the CB and drain punch recovery to be able to do so, so if your opponent's packing a ghost type and you mispredict, you're out of luck. Speaking of which...
Levitating/ Air Ballon ghost types- a bit of a meme, but this thing can't sacrifice any coverage moves without falling short of KO'ing one of the more common threats in the metagame (Toxapex, Corv, Clefable), so it's completely unable to damage these specific types of Pokemon without giving up something valuable in return (if you have to give something up I reccomend Earthquake since all it means is you lose out on the Toxapex match-up, and reccomend replacing it with Payback instead, though the odds you'll run into Air Ballon Dragapult in any serious capacity is sort of... unrealistic...)
Corsola (Galar edition)
0+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 118-140 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not touching that even with DL, and Earthquake isn't better by a long shot
Toxapex- despite being 2HKO'd, it can also play around this set by using BB, then switching to an appropriate counter after scouting your choice-locked move (you could probably use a Bulk Up set to try to counterplay around that, though alternative sets aren't currently the focus of this post)
As for how this thing plays, it looks for opportunities to get in for free and wreak havoc- once it starts getting chipped it loses its ability to check or scare off some of the stronger attackers (such as Terrakion), so slow U-Turns or Teleports (or faints) are great for getting this thing into position where it can cause big damage
From there, it's a straightforward matter of clicking the appropriate move and watching things die- Double Edge for Clefable (or Rotom if they decide to switch into it), CC for Corviknight, Earthquake for Zeroara, and Drain Punch in those situations where you can get away with it, or in those situations you want to turn 2HKO's into 3HKO's (such as against Melmetal and Mr. Fish). Hold back on using this thing if you see Hippowdon or Galarian Corsola on youe opponents team, since it's little more than set up fodder against either two of them
Now, as for why this thing is 200/252
52 in attack lets Bewear gurantee KO Toxapex with Earthquake even without SR, so non SR versions are getting sniped. Considering all Toxapex carry Regenerator however they'll most likely switch out afterwards, leaving that extra attack good for little more than added chip on things
52 in speed lets Bewear undercut Corviknight in terms of turn order, but also outspeed uninvested Clefable since they both carry the same base speed (60). This means that Clefable switching in to predict and landing on the wrong move will be forced to take Double-Edge twice and guarantee die if they stay in, or run extra speed EV's and risk losing valuable bulk they'll need to take on the score of other monsters wandering around this meta (it's possible Clefable are already running this much speed in order to outrun key threats and I haven't been looking up on it, so feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken about them being forced to run awkward movesets in order to take this thing on- if not more speed would need to be added in sacrifice for bulk, since taking on Clefable is essential in this meta)
As you can see, this thing's not as centralizing as Mr. Fish or Melmetal, but it thrives on its ability to come in and pop most of the meta open like a cork bottle once it gets in and settles down and its (two) problematic checks are gone. It needs support in taking out its hard counters in order to start taking the enemy team apart (and more than likely Wish support to be able to check multiple things over the course of a match), but we're in the era of Wish-Teleport Clefable and Hydreigon, so neither of those things are hard to find
A follow-up on my previous idea, again marked in SPOILERS:
I also want to discuss the existence of another set, because having only one set to run makes this Pokemon one-note, and its counters sort of run over it
Bewear
Adamant
Fluffy
200 HP/252 ATK/52 Speed (getting the jump on Clefable is still one of the most important things you can do now, so it's better in speed than anywhere else)
Leftovers
Bulk Up
Facade
Drain Punch
Earthquake
This set is slightly less effective since it loses out on the ability to KO max DEF Clefable even at +1 with a status boosted Facade
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 321-378 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Though Health only investments can't OHKO Bewear, and are 2HKO'd in response
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 296-350 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (notice this is without burn/poison- non defensively oriented versions are cleanly OHKO'd with it
What this thing does do however is punish both opponent's that assume you're running the Choice Band edition, and punish virtually every Pokemon that otherwise sets up shop in this current meta
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 200 HP / 4 Def Bewear: 96-114 (22.2 - 26.4%) -- 12.6% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 127-150 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bewear manages to get in and Hippowdon is forced to Roar out because Bewear beats it one on one after enough Bulk Ups, and statused Facade is a clean 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 235-277 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 139-165 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 120-142 (30 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bulk Up Corviknight can't handle this set, and non Bulk Up variants are sitting ducks for this thing- Bewear underspeeds by 1 point, so DP is always doing 60% damage minimum if it roosts, surpassing its Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 49-58 (11.3 - 13.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
Mandibuzz does nothing to this thing even with its best offensive move, and this is one of the few Pokemon in the entire meta that doesn't mind poison or Knock Off
Bewear does roughly 80-90% once it gets statused, and DP mitigates the use of its leftovers+ poison, plus gives it a permanent new toy to use in the form of a boosted Facade (that doesn't result in damage reduction on its other moves like it would with burn)
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex needs a burn on the first turn in order to check this thing, since the combination of non-boosted Earthquake +1 status boosted Facade has a high chance to 2HKO this thing. This Pokemon also doesn't mind Baneful Bunker, since a status move that doesn't rack up damage like Toxic and doesn't drop the attack of the rest of its moves like a burn is this thing's dream as far as offensive potential is concerned
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 212-250 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Still functions as an emergency check to +1 Zeroara, though this time it needs chip in order to reliably take it from full health; it goes without saying Zeroara cannot take this thing on if it's unboosted at all
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 442-522 (139.4 - 164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 168-198 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 520-616 (191.8 - 227.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still switches into Bisharp and checks it, since Bisharp needs SD+ 2 Iron Head flinches in order to stop this thing, and this thing nukes back in response even uninvested
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 352-415 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 288-338 (89.1 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Emergency checks CB Terrakion, but ONLY if it has full health- SD'd version OHKO's this, so you'd need to use the other version if you want to survive that attack (though you shouldn't be switching Bewear into Terrakion unless you know it's choiced or you're desperate, so keep that in mind)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 235-277 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 426-504 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Terrakion cannot switch in to check this thing once at all however once it's set-up (unless it's taken a ton of damage beforehand), and DP recovers over half of the damage CC does in the first place (37% from full health)
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 142-168 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 70.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 213-252 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 196-232 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Neither C-Scarf nor Choice Band Dracovish can stop this thing once it's already gotten to +1, and it recovers most of the damage it takes from FR via DP (22.7- 26.9%)
And less its power be underestimated, it also still bops frail attacking Pokemon if they try to switch in on the turn it tries to set up, and you predict and click a coverage move
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 352-416 (134.8 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 288-338 (73.6 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 147-174 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 254-300 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 174-206 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is supposed to represent Aegislash-Shield on the Pokemon Damage Calculator)
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 294-348 (97.3 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Only Dragapult out of all of these takes less than 50% damage from an unboosted attack from Bewear, and it has a 60% to not be able to do so again provided it has no bulk or leftovers recovery
The intended way to use this set is to switch into/ be switched into the plethora of Pokemon that can't reliably stop it from setting up, and +1'ing yourself via Bulk Up. From that point on Bewear has the capacity to boost itself through most of the physically defensive metagame, and essentially all of the physically offensive Metagame (not even CB Melmetal stops this thing once it gets set-up). Neither Knock Off nor poison can stop this thing (in fact the latter gives it a boost), and burn only slightly hinders its offensive capabilities
Now for the problems with this set.
Togekiss- a rarity in this metagame (at least to my knowledge), but unboosted Bewear can't even do more than Roost damage with even its strongest attack
252+ Atk Bewear Facade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 127-151 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And gets soundly 2HKO'd in response, with a high chance to flinch via Air Slash
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 350-414 (81.2 - 96%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Corsola (Galar edition)- just like the last set it can't touch this thing, and Facade can't capitalize on boosted damage after burn due to it being ghost type. Speaking of which...
Burn- while this thing can take burns and bust out a powerful boosted Facade in response to be given a status condition, it loses out on the ability to harm other types of Pokemon it might want to check that either are resistant or immune to the move such as Terrakion, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and the plethora of ghost types that haunt the tier
Air Balloon ghosts- same as last time, nothing to see here
Excadrill- what might define whether or not you use this set, or the other more defensive one
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 405-477 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 Excadrill OHKO's this set using Earthquake, so you can't reliably send it in once it's already set up
Speed creep base 60's- one of the problems with the other set as well, since both Slyveon and Clefable deal obnoxious amounts of damage if they manage to get the first hit in, with even uninvested Sylveon having a chance to OHKO this thing with Hyper Voice
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 380-450 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Facade also can't 2HKO either unless its +1, though boosted +1 Facade solidly KO's unless it's a physically defensive variant
Rotom-H- doesn't like taking attacks from this thing, but can come in a pinch and force Bewear to switch out, or risk getting nuked
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 444-524 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 444-524 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This set capitalizes on the fact that the other set is a viable option, and your opponent doesn't know whether it's going to be the much harder hitting and tankier first set, or the less powerful but more liable to set up and sweep second set, and the checks and potential counters vary between them (+2 Excadrill can check the second set but gets dusted by the first, Hippowdon can take on the first set but gets set up on by the second set, Togekiss, Clefable, and Sylveon can theoretically handle the second set but get roundhoused by the first set, etc.), so mispredicting can be a costly mistake that will more than likely result in your opponent losing one if not several Pokemon
As always, keep this thing away from Special attackers (and Cinderace) or they'll light this Pokemon up like a Christmas tree. Try not to switch directly into heavy hitting Pokemon (ala Dracovish, Terrakion) since this set is designed to set-up before they come in and force them into a checkmate position (if you want a Pokemon that can more reliably stop them outright use the first set). If possible, try to aim for poison, since burn reduces the power of its other moves and ruins its overall effectiveness. This thing loves Defog almost as much as Bisharp (Defog from Corviknight/ Mandibuzz is literally a free switch in for this thing), so SR not only helps by giving it added damage capacity behind its attacks, it gives it extra opportunities to come in and wreak havoc.[/ISPOILER]
A follow-up on my previous idea, again marked in SPOILERS:
I also want to discuss the existence of another set, because having only one set to run makes this Pokemon one-note, and its counters sort of run over it
Bewear
Adamant
Fluffy
200 HP/252 ATK/52 Speed (getting the jump on Clefable is still one of the most important things you can do now, so it's better in speed than anywhere else)
Leftovers
Bulk Up
Facade
Drain Punch
Earthquake
This set is slightly less effective since it loses out on the ability to KO max DEF Clefable even at +1 with a status boosted Facade
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 321-378 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Though Health only investments can't OHKO Bewear, and are 2HKO'd in response
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 296-350 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (notice this is without burn/poison- non defensively oriented versions are cleanly OHKO'd with it
What this thing does do however is punish both opponent's that assume you're running the Choice Band edition, and punish virtually every Pokemon that otherwise sets up shop in this current meta
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 200 HP / 4 Def Bewear: 96-114 (22.2 - 26.4%) -- 12.6% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 127-150 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bewear manages to get in and Hippowdon is forced to Roar out because Bewear beats it one on one after enough Bulk Ups, and statused Facade is a clean 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 235-277 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 139-165 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 120-142 (30 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bulk Up Corviknight can't handle this set, and non Bulk Up variants are sitting ducks for this thing- Bewear underspeeds by 1 point, so DP is always doing 60% damage minimum if it roosts, surpassing its Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 49-58 (11.3 - 13.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
Mandibuzz does nothing to this thing even with its best offensive move, and this is one of the few Pokemon in the entire meta that doesn't mind poison or Knock Off
Bewear does roughly 80-90% once it gets statused, and DP mitigates the use of its leftovers+ poison, plus gives it a permanent new toy to use in the form of a boosted Facade (that doesn't result in damage reduction on its other moves like it would with burn)
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex needs a burn on the first turn in order to check this thing, since the combination of non-boosted Earthquake +1 status boosted Facade has a high chance to 2HKO this thing. This Pokemon also doesn't mind Baneful Bunker, since a status move that doesn't rack up damage like Toxic and doesn't drop the attack of the rest of its moves like a burn is this thing's dream as far as offensive potential is concerned
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 212-250 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Still functions as an emergency check to +1 Zeroara, though this time it needs chip in order to reliably take it from full health; it goes without saying Zeroara cannot take this thing on if it's unboosted at all
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 442-522 (139.4 - 164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 168-198 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 520-616 (191.8 - 227.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still switches into Bisharp and checks it, since Bisharp needs SD+ 2 Iron Head flinches in order to stop this thing, and this thing nukes back in response even uninvested
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 352-415 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 288-338 (89.1 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Emergency checks CB Terrakion, but ONLY if it has full health- SD'd version OHKO's this, so you'd need to use the other version if you want to survive that attack (though you shouldn't be switching Bewear into Terrakion unless you know it's choiced or you're desperate, so keep that in mind)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 235-277 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 426-504 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Terrakion cannot switch in to check this thing once at all however once it's set-up (unless it's taken a ton of damage beforehand), and DP recovers over half of the damage CC does in the first place (37% from full health)
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 142-168 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 70.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 213-252 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 196-232 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Neither C-Scarf nor Choice Band Dracovish can stop this thing once it's already gotten to +1, and it recovers most of the damage it takes from FR via DP (22.7- 26.9%)
And less its power be underestimated, it also still bops frail attacking Pokemon if they try to switch in on the turn it tries to set up, and you predict and click a coverage move
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 352-416 (134.8 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 288-338 (73.6 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 147-174 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 254-300 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 174-206 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is supposed to represent Aegislash-Shield on the Pokemon Damage Calculator)
252+ Atk Bewear Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 294-348 (97.3 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Only Dragapult out of all of these takes less than 50% damage from an unboosted attack from Bewear, and it has a 60% to not be able to do so again provided it has no bulk or leftovers recovery
The intended way to use this set is to switch into/ be switched into the plethora of Pokemon that can't reliably stop it from setting up, and +1'ing yourself via Bulk Up. From that point on Bewear has the capacity to boost itself through most of the physically defensive metagame, and essentially all of the physically offensive Metagame (not even CB Melmetal stops this thing once it gets set-up). Neither Knock Off nor poison can stop this thing (in fact the latter gives it a boost), and burn only slightly hinders its offensive capabilities
Now for the problems with this set.
Togekiss- a rarity in this metagame (at least to my knowledge), but unboosted Bewear can't even do more than Roost damage with even its strongest attack
252+ Atk Bewear Facade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 127-151 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And gets soundly 2HKO'd in response, with a high chance to flinch via Air Slash
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 350-414 (81.2 - 96%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Corsola (Galar edition)- just like the last set it can't touch this thing, and Facade can't capitalize on boosted damage after burn due to it being ghost type. Speaking of which...
Burn- while this thing can take burns and bust out a powerful boosted Facade in response to be given a status condition, it loses out on the ability to harm other types of Pokemon it might want to check that either are resistant or immune to the move such as Terrakion, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and the plethora of ghost types that haunt the tier
Air Balloon ghosts- same as last time, nothing to see here
Excadrill- what might define whether or not you use this set, or the other more defensive one
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 405-477 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 Excadrill OHKO's this set using Earthquake, so you can't reliably send it in once it's already set up
Speed creep base 60's- one of the problems with the other set as well, since both Slyveon and Clefable deal obnoxious amounts of damage if they manage to get the first hit in, with even uninvested Sylveon having a chance to OHKO this thing with Hyper Voice
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Bewear: 380-450 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Facade also can't 2HKO either unless its +1, though boosted +1 Facade solidly KO's unless it's a physically defensive variant
Rotom-H- doesn't like taking attacks from this thing, but can come in a pinch and force Bewear to switch out, or risk getting nuked
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 444-524 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Bewear: 444-524 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This set capitalizes on the fact that the other set is a viable option, and your opponent doesn't know whether it's going to be the much harder hitting and tankier first set, or the less powerful but more liable to set up and sweep second set, and the checks and potential counters vary between them (+2 Excadrill can check the second set but gets dusted by the first, Hippowdon can take on the first set but gets set up on by the second set, Togekiss, Clefable, and Sylveon can theoretically handle the second set but get roundhoused by the first set, etc.), so mispredicting can be a costly mistake that will more than likely result in your opponent losing one if not several Pokemon
As always, keep this thing away from Special attackers (and Cinderace) or they'll light this Pokemon up like a Christmas tree. Try not to switch directly into heavy hitting Pokemon (ala Dracovish, Terrakion) since this set is designed to set-up before they come in and force them into a checkmate position (if you want a Pokemon that can more reliably stop them outright use the first set). If possible, try to aim for poison, since burn reduces the power of its other moves and ruins its overall effectiveness. This thing loves Defog almost as much as Bisharp (Defog from Corviknight/ Mandibuzz is literally a free switch in for this thing), so SR not only helps by giving it added damage capacity behind its attacks, it gives it extra opportunities to come in and wreak havoc.[/ISPOILER]
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 216 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 174-204 (40 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 144-170 (30.5 - 36%) -- 45.2% chance to 3HKO (16.5 - 19.5% recovered)
Faster than relaxed Seismi , SD taunt > pex hippo , overall it works well pressuring fat ghostless plus checking melme with some support even tho after using the bear ,I found the fluffly goat more reliable and annoying overall thanks to rest and twaving and allow switching wishport clef into cm lo to shit on fat . (Downside ->momentum killer when asleep )
I'd post in the viability thread, but I'll post here. This thing is actually good and deserves to be ranked (maybe B). There's beauty in its simplicity:
Vikavolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots (or if you're a savage, Life Orb) (Electric Plate / Bug Plate if you're a cheeseball laddering in the 1300s)
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Roost / Energy Ball (I endorse tbolt)
- Volt Switch
- Bug Buzz
- Sticky Web
The best way I can describe using Vikavolt is imagine a bug-type rotom-form with 145 spatk and access to sticky web.
It's an absolute pest to common balance cores because of its unique dual STAB, 145spatk, and ability to set up webs if walled. See below for a list of pokemon that make up common balance cores:
Pex: wrekt
Mandibuzz: wrekt
Corviknight: wrekt
Seismitoed: ouch (252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 220-261 (53.1 - 63%))
Ferrothorn: ouch (252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 154-183 (43.7 - 51.9%))
Clefable: set up webs on the switch, volt switch out, or apply pressure: (252+ SpA Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%))
Excadrill: set up webs on the switch, or give that sweet sweet chip (252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 124-147 (34.3 - 40.7%))
On the next switch should be a 2HKO since you will now outspeed (if they are still up)
This thing can also be a menace for offensive teams. Because of its unique typing, very few offensive threats have a super effective coverage move and it has surprisingly respectable bulk. By mid-game, and even early-game, I will be looking to make a trade to neutralize an opposing threat. Here are some recommended trades:
Zeraora (trading all day)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zeraora: 210-247 (66.2 - 77.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 135-160 (45.7 - 54.2%)
Melmetal (volt switch out)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 249-294 (52.7 - 62.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 228-268 (77.2 - 90.8%)
Bisharp (have to be near full health)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 235-277 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO!!!
252 Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 204-240 (69.1 - 81.3%)
Kyurem (yeah I'm assuming it's already locked into freeze dry.. deal with it, it happens in actual battles)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 192-226 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vikavolt: 217-256 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Conkeldurr (not all are 252 speed from my exp...)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 247-292 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 289-341 (97.9 - 115.5%)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 201-237 (68.1 - 80.3%)
I have not assumed webs in any of these, but if you did you can trade with so many more pokemon since you won't get KO'd, e.g. CB Vish, gengar, keldeo,
Some helpful thoughts / tips:
This is NOT a suicide lead bro
Effective at keeping webs up since it wreks common defoggers and gets good chip on the best spinner in the game
Best used early/mid game to apply constant pressure to common cores
Some people literally don't know this thing has 145 spatk
Get chip for days
I recommend tbolt since the added power is really nice. Roost is great but at the end of the day this is best early/mid-game and boots keeps you alive enough, if you're wasting time roosting then you're not maintaining the offensive pressure this thing should be used for
LO makes this thing a menace but you trade longevity - I like this being a pest for the first 20 turns
Lastly and most importantly,this thing pairs really well with all the broken things in the game: Kyurem, Melmetal, Dracovish
I'd post in the viability thread, but I'll post here. This thing is actually good and deserves to be ranked (maybe B). There's beauty in its simplicity:
Vikavolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots (or if you're a savage, Life Orb) (Electric Plate / Bug Plate if you're a cheeseball laddering in the 1300s)
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Roost / Energy Ball (I endorse tbolt)
- Volt Switch
- Bug Buzz
- Sticky Web
The best way I can describe using Vikavolt effectively is imagine a bug-type rotom-form with 145 spatk and access to sticky web.
It's an absolute pest to common balance cores because of its unique dual STAB, 145spatk that can significantly chip threats, and ability to set up webs if walled. See below for a list
Pex: wrekt
Mandibuzz: wrekt
Corviknight: wrekt
Seismitoed: ouch (252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 220-261 (53.1 - 63%))
Ferrothorn: ouch (252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 154-183 (43.7 - 51.9%))
Clefable: set up webs on the switch, volt switch out, or apply pressure: (252+ SpA Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%))
Excadrill: set up webs on the switch, or give that sweet sweet chip (252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 124-147 (34.3 - 40.7%))
On the next switch should be a 2HKO since you will now outspeed (if they are still up)
This thing is also a menace for offensive teams. Because of its unique typing, very few offensive threats have a super effective coverage move. This thing also has surprisingly decent bulk. By mid-game, and even early-game, I will be looking to make a trade to neutralize a threat. Here are some recommended trades:
Zeraora
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zeraora: 210-247 (66.2 - 77.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 135-160 (45.7 - 54.2%)
Melmetal
252+ SpA Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 249-294 (52.7 - 62.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 228-268 (77.2 - 90.8%)
Bisharp (have to be near full health)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 235-277 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO!!!
252 Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 204-240 (69.1 - 81.3%)
Kyurem (yeah I'm assuming it's already locked into freeze dry.. deal with it, it happens in actual battles)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 192-226 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vikavolt: 217-256 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Conkeldurr (not all are 252 speed from my exp...)
252+ SpA Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 247-292 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 289-341 (97.9 - 115.5%)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vikavolt: 201-237 (68.1 - 80.3%)
I have not assumed webs in any of these, but if you did you can trade with so many more pokemon since you won't get KO'd, e.g. CB Vish, gengar, keldeo,
Some helpful thoughts / tips:
This is NOT a suicide lead bro
Surprisingly effective at keeping webs up since it wreks common defoggers and chips the best spinner in the game
Best used early/mid game to apply constant pressure to common cores
Some people literally don't know this thing has 145 spatk
Get chip for days
I recommend tbolt since the added power is really nice. Roost is great but at the end of the day this is best early/mid-game and boots keeps you alive enough, if you're wasting time roosting then you're not maintaining the offensive pressure this thing should be used for
LO makes this thing a menace but you trade longevity - I like this being a pest for the first 20 turns
Lastly and most importantly,this thing pairs really well with all the broken things in the game: Kyurem, Melmetal, Dracovish
Not that it needs too much speed, but the only benefit to giving it any at all would be to outspeed uninvested base 60's/65's (i.e. the Eeveelution line, the Alolan starters, Clefable, Aegislash, etc.), since everything else above that mark tends to run speed EV's, and this thing is outpaced by things as slow as uninvested base 75's with a neutral nature (Venusaur hits 80 for comparison's sake)
180 lets you hit that benchmark, while giving you extra bulk to survive extra something (Sure, you lose the speed toss-up to Seismitoad, but anyone who keeps Seismitoad in on this Pokemon in Dracovish meta is a moron)
So I decided to bite the bullet and build my team for laddering OU, having played enough before but never seriously. I have time and my Economics homework... ehhhhh I can do it tomorrow. Here's the summarized stuff I said to myself trying to build.
Alright, so first I'll use Toad. I need to check Vish or else I'm gonna suffer. Sure if there's no Vish Toad isn't good... what if, instead of worrying about Vish, I try something different?
Well now I HAVE to use Hatterene. It's my favorite new Pokemon this gen, and I wanna use it. It's really good and underrated! I gotta show off its skill!
Hrm, what else do I need? Well, I know I need Clef. I guess I already have Toad for rocks, I can use WishPort. Maybe I could use... LO? Wait... why would I use Hatterene... when I can... use this??? Hmm... wait a minute... Specs Hatterene? It has Magic Bounce! It can deflect rocks from Toad, I know they've probably got Toad. Wait... why do I need to use Toad then? Can I go without rocks?
AH HAH! Specs Hatterene, Giga Drain, lead against their Toad. Got it. I now get rid of their Vish check... wait, now I have to use Vish. I literally have to, dude. I gotta. Their Toad won't see it coming! Turn one Toad is dead and then Vish cleans house!
I have done it. I have successfully broken the meta.
(this particular comment will not age well)
Ah yes I still have 4 more slots. Should I keep using Clef? I guess I can just wishport still. Wait. Gotta still build that Vish. CB Fisheous Rend... what does this thing learn again? Doesn't matter I just need Fisheous Rend. I guess Outrage... what else? Whatever just Equake and Psychic Fangs. Doesn't matter their Vish counter is dead I think.
WAIT WHAT IF THEY DON'T HAVE A TOAD LEAD?
Great now I actually gotta play the video game.
Corviknight...? Yeah lets use it. Sub Iron Defense? Defog obv. Body Press. That should do fine. Is this my gonna be my other wincon?
Wait what's my own Vish counter? Is this my Vish counter? Once the Sub is up do I win? I think so. Yeah I think once the Sub is up I win. Now how do I get that Sub up without dying... HeatTom beats this, got it. How am I gonna destroy that? Vish? Nah nah, don't wanna get stuffed early. Lets do...
Wait.
No.
Something that beats Electric, Fire, and a good Vish counter.
NO.
WAIT.
F*CK.
I HAVE TO USE TOAD.
(two and a half hours of me screaming obscenities at the metagame later)
Okay. Okay. This is fine. I still have 2 slots. Hatterene, Vish, Corviknight, Toad. I have hazard control, the counterpicks, and the sweeper. Two slots left. What other setters are there? Doesn't matter I have Hatterene. Giga Drain hits Toad and other waters, Mystical Fire hits Thorn, Psychic hits Pex. This is your reminder to use Hatterene it's really good.
Wait, but what about Clef? I mean I have Corv but I don't have a murder the fairy button. I need the fairy dead before they sink the momentum.
NOPE, WAIT, STILL GOTTA BUILD THE TOAD. Can't go thinking too far ahead. Focus on the toad. Focus on the toad and not your homework.
Uhhhhhhhh well I don't think I'll need rocks. What else does this thing run?
Oh. Nothing? Scald? I feel like I could do with something else. Maybe another Pokemon? What does Gastrodon do?
Oh. Also nothing? Come on. I can't use Mantine or... or can I? Wait I have Corv. And I'll still need something for HeatTom.
I have to use this largely useless piece of frog or else I get steamrolled.
It was around this time I got very bored and decided to stop procrastinating on my homework. Really I felt discouraged more than anything. The one positive to this generation isn't that I don't feel as helpless when deciding what to put on my team. I mean look at NatDex rn. What the heck do I put on my team? There's so many options it's kinda nuts. Here? It's the opposite. I know what I have to have on my team. The problem is I have to have it. Welcome to Gen 8 OU. Clef doesn't feel like the problem. Clef has pretty much always been good in some form or another. Really its the sheer constraints on teambuilding the meta has left me with. My singular anti-meta pick is all I can get out of it. I wanna do something different and interesting, but I find myself always falling into the same core. I mean look at the 4 I already had. 3 out of 4 were common on the same team. Toad Vish Corv alone is a core. I hadn't even considered Thorn, Pex, Kyurem, Zeraora, Hippo, my own HeatTom, and I was still on the fence about Clef for a 4 out of 5 core. I always try to find some interesting option in each OU, even if it isn't too great. I used Mega Chomp and a bunch of Pokemon that function in sand in Gen 6 for heaven's sake, and I got a couple moments where I was like, "yes! teambuilding!" But now? Where's the teambuilding?
TL;DR: In trying to break the Meta, the Meta broke me.
This question is going to be glanced over, but this is something regarding suspects that has needed to be addressed since suspect testing started on this site. Right now the process pretty much stems from a mish-mosh of opinions being thrown around in a specific thread trying to sway a select few's opinions (currently the OU council) to really get anything done with regards to anything suspect related.
Any post that supports suspect testing Dracovish is a great post.
I think an interesting experiment (that would never happen) is if Seismitoed doesn't exist. What will happen then? If the meta falls apart then you have an issue. In theory, if one Pokemon is holding together the tier that indicates that something is broken.
The meta is not short on mons that can deal with Vish from water immunity perspective. Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Quag, Lapras....etc all exist and would be ran if Toad was removed. At most all you're doing is losing the role compression that toad provided with rocks but it's not that hard to find another mon that you can just stick rocks on anyway.
I think Dracovish being considered "fine" in the meta initially stems from our past understanding of what we think would generally make a mon suspect worthy. A mon like Dracovish with a full immunity on its broken move, low speed and the coverage it has doesn't really sound that suspect worthy in a vacuum, but taking into consideration how it warps the metagame building around it, it really does make you think twice.
Other older Pokemon have warped lots of the metagame around them before but with such a limited selection of Pokemon and taking into consideration why Vish is warping the meta (it blows shit back in one click without much counterplay) it's obvious as fuck that it limits diversity a little too much even though it can technically be handled by the meta in a sense.
There is no real criteria to discuss the aspect of what Vish is doing. How much of a choke on diversity is too much? Clef kinda does some of the same thing but I don't think people are looking at Clef in the same light, as it's mostly a defensive mon. Clef is realistically never going to get a suspect test and doesn't deserve one but it's hard to talk about this stuff Clef, Vish or whatever mon in any capacity to get anything done without any actual criteria to define what is or isn't suspect worthy.
Hopefully pointing this stuff out here will spark some interest in this topic as having criteria for testing would make this process SOOOmuch easier.
This question is going to be glanced over, but this is something regarding suspects that has needed to be addressed since suspect testing started on this site. Right now the process pretty much stems from a mish-mosh of opinions being thrown around in a specific thread trying to sway a select few's opinions (currently the OU council) to really get anything done with regards to anything suspect related.
The meta is not short on mons that can deal with Vish from water immunity perspective. Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Quag, Lapras....etc all exist and would be ran if Toad was removed. At most all you're doing is losing the role compression that toad provided with rocks but it's not that hard to find another mon that you can just stick rocks on anyway.
I think Dracovish being considered "fine" in the meta initially stems from our past understanding of what we think would generally make a mon suspect worthy. A mon like Dracovish with a full immunity on its broken move, low speed and the coverage it has doesn't really sound that suspect worthy in a vacuum, but taking into consideration how it warps the metagame building around it, it really does make you think twice.
Other older Pokemon have warped lots of the metagame around them before but with such a limited selection of Pokemon and taking into consideration why Vish is warping the meta (it blows shit back in one click without much counterplay) it's obvious as fuck that it limits diversity a little too much even though it can technically be handled by the meta in a sense.
There is no real criteria to discuss the aspect of what Vish is doing. How much of a choke on diversity is too much? Clef kinda does some of the same thing but I don't think people are looking at Clef in the same light, as it's mostly a defensive mon. Clef is realistically never going to get a suspect test and doesn't deserve one but it's hard to talk about this stuff Clef, Vish or whatever mon in any capacity to get anything done without any actual criteria to define what is or isn't suspect worthy.
Hopefully pointing this stuff out here will spark some interest in this topic as having criteria for testing would make this process SOOOmuch easier.
This is a great post and a topic that I would love further discussion on, I only have my own opinion to contribute.
To me, there are two elements that can make a pokemon ban-worthy - they are either (i) "broken", (ii) "unhealthy" or both. The tricky part is the definition
To me, broken means there is not enough adequate counterplay. For an offensive threat, the damage output is too strong as viable switch-ins are 2HKO'd with the right coverage move. Additionally, counterplay that may check one viable set may not check another viable set. Simply put: "too strong". Examples from previous gens: Zekrom, Reshiram, Mega Kangeskhan, Landorus-I, Mega Mawhile.. etc.
Note, this does not mean that there is ZERO counterplay, but "adequate" and this is the subjective / difficult part of the definition. For example, Zekrom is countered (not just checked) by ferrothorn. Reshiram is hard-walled by chansey. Mega Kang gets beat by Mega Sabeleye and alolan Corsola (okay, a little theory-monning here). They aren't "unbeatable".
To me, everything broken is unhealthy by definition since the meta will be centralized around the limited (not adequate) counterplay. But there are things that are unhealthy but not broken. Defining unhealthy is difficult, identifying it is easier: teambuilding is heavily constricted (aka, meta is extremely centralized) and strategic play is not rewarded / is reduced as a result of the pokemon in question. Historically, most examples are abilities / moves which is why it is tough to pin on a pokemon. Here are some examples: Dynamax, Shadow Tag/Arena Trap, Swagger, and in my opinion, Gen 6 Aegislash (Uber)
Here are some amazing excerpts from that suspect thread:
...but also the fact it presents the game with more straight up 50/50 opportunities. While Pokemon is all about prediction and it might seem as simple as a guessing game, a straight up 50/50 does not reward based off of skill, but rather who won the coin flip
Aegislash prevents metagame development. Aegislash forces the same metagames and Pokemon to be used in a environment involving it; the metagame will always stay mostly the same because of the fact that Aegislash is so unlike every other Pokemon ever suspected... with Hoopa-Unbound being one of the few Pokemon to do so thanks to its ability to breach both Substitute and King's Shield. Because of this, Aegislash by itself will always force the same trends and metagames, and no amount of time will ever change that.
Gen 6 Aegislash is not a perfect comparison or example by any means (in fact it is quite a unique pokemon), but an example of a pokemon that is "unhealthy" but not purely broken by true traditional standards.
Back to today's meta. All that being said, I actually consider Dracovish suspect worthy on the grounds of the traditional "broken" definition. There isn't enough adequate counterplay. We're lucky Seismitoed is viable (sorry Lapras) but that is just one pokemon (Ferro counters Zekrom! Yay). So I actually disagree with your post that "there is no real criteria to discuss what Vish is doing" - it's quite simple, it actually is broken and we don't need to think outside the box at all here IMO
I would also add that it is also unhealthy in that it creates a lot of 50/50s because one of the most hilarious things about Dracovish is that its best check is itself! After I KO a 252hp/252def+ Corviknight with Dracovish, if the opponent has Vish he will often send him out. Do I switch out to Clef hoping he is outrage? Or will he just spam Fishious and it's a draw if I stay in? It's plain silly and stupid. No strategy. Dumb. IMO, Dracovish is broken and unhealthy.
Disclaimer: I am NOT comparing Vish to Gen 6 Aegislash. They are very different, and only have a few similarities. Vish is not nearly as splashable as Aegislash
There is no real criteria to discuss the aspect of what Vish is doing. How much of a choke on diversity is too much? Clef kinda does some of the same thing but I don't think people are looking at Clef in the same light, as it's mostly a defensive mon. Clef is realistically never going to get a suspect test and doesn't deserve one but it's hard to talk about this stuff Clef, Vish or whatever mon in any capacity to get anything done without any actual criteria to define what is or isn't suspect worthy. Hopefully pointing this stuff out here will spark some interest in this topic as having criteria for testing would make this process SOOOmuch easier.
For whatever it may be worth, we do. Although it's old, some definitions of commonly thrown around terms are given meaning in this post from 2015, and perhaps more importantly in this post from 2018, which discusses certain "Assumptions in Tiering Policy". We do have definitions for terms such as "broken" or "overcentralizing", but people throw them around so improperly and often that they have lost meaning. I've cited to them before, particularly in December when ironically I was discussing how Dracovish was utterly broken in pre-home OU, but until a badged user who makes people feel good starts referencing these frameworks, most people probably won't know they exist.
But since we're on the subject, take a look at what the definition of Broken says here.
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but they aren't necessarily entirely so.
Baton Pass was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to matchup, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team matchup restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few obscure counters or checks for it.
This is where it gets really subjective and hard to weigh whether something is enough of a problem that we should take action to fix it. Does Dracovish "practically dictate and require usage?" Obviously not. Are its checks "extraordinarily niche" Pokemon? Seismitoad certainly isn't, and Gastrodon probably isn't, though some other bulky waters may or may not be. Is it too good relative to the rest of the metagame enough to center the tier around it? Probably not, but you could argue that any team lacking multiple checks or Seisimitoad is going to get completely smashed, and it does say "[a Pokemon] could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team matchup restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few obscure counters or checks for it". Does that apply to Dracovish? I personally would not say so, but that's just my opinion from playing for many years and how I compare it in my mind to other vastly more problematic past suspects. It's still a fair argument though.
The fact that Fishious Rend is brainless and requires linear and predictable counterplay, which leads to stale teambuilding choices, is not necessarily a reason to ban something or deem it broken. I do think that there's a good argument that it's too much for the tier, but I think it has more to do with the combination of it's restrictive nature on teambuilding + it's inability to be easily revenge killed offensively. I think at best, Dracovish literally "fishes" for matchup wins against someone who takes the gamble of not preparing adequately for it, precisely because everyone else is overpreparing for it, and therefore not using it. At worst, it forces players to engage in this nonsensical gambling game when building teams and dictates the use of Seismitoad or a combination of sturdy checks like Ferro+Gastro on teams to deal with it defensively. You do have the benefit of WishPort Clef running the meta atm, so you could theoretically revive any of its sturdy checks with proper play and prediction. But with something like Ash Greninja in Gen 7, you could outplay it even if you didn't bring defensive counters to it. I'm not sold one way or the other whether you could say the same about teams unprepared for Dracovish. Just my personal opinion.
Bold of you to assume the anxiety only ever spikes when toad is around :)
:)))))))))))) :( :)
(maybe competitive pokemon isn't good for me idk i'm not a doctor)
I do HO and then I realize huh maybe this is a lil too much offense and I'm losing to one or two things way too much, and maybe if I used this defensive piece things will be better. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
I don’t think I’ve ever made a post like this but there are some really big issues I want to address with this meta. For what it’s worth it has some commentary, so it’s more than just the bitchings of a salty depressed retard.
1. Status
You can click TWave and Wisp and basically not worry about being punished for it. Clef is the closest there is to a status absorber but it hates TWave and becomes more vulnerable to Hex Dragapult after being affected. Scald would be here too if it weren’t for another aspect of the meta, mentioned below.
2. Knock Off
If you aren’t spamming this move then you’re doing something wrong. No megas or Z to absorb the hit. Most that traditionally wouldn’t have cared much, like Mandibuzz and Clef, are now vulnerable because they lose their timbs or lefties. Items are incredibly important in this meta and losing them is a pain in the ass.
3. Teleport
Fuck this move. Having a guaranteed slow DryPass makes predictions a pain and in many cases stops people from making reads in general. In conjunction with Wish, it’s honestly broken. Brings in breakers for free and keeps them healthy the whole game. Between the safe switchins and replenished health, it’s very difficult to wear down wallbreakers. Literally just pair this with Dracovish or Melmetal or Conk or wallbreaker ad infinitum and they won’t die.
4. Clefable
Every team has this thing because every team needs something to absorb status, check Dragapult Kyurem and Hydreigon, beat Seismitoad, break with LO or support with Wish + Teleport, etc. It makes games draw out for much longer than they should because it doesn’t fucking die, especially when Corv + Pex cover all its weaknesses. Corv Clef Pex is like the SkarmBliss of gen 8. AIDS.
5. Conkeldurr
Has zero counters. CC Knock Mach and Facade/EQ/T Punch kills everything in the tier, and the slower cores just fold to it. Offense has to pick a sack and try to revenge kill while balance has to dance around the coverage until it’s low enough to be killed. Until it gets Wished back to full. The new Mega Mawile.
6. Dracovish
Dumbest mon in OU. Fishous Rend is mindless and destroys any team lacking either Pex Ferro or Toad. The first two lose anyway if rain is up. Extremely restrictive to team building as a result and a major headache to play around.
7. Kyurem
Click Ice Beam on their Clef until you freeze it, or if it’s at like 90% just 2HKO on the switch. Or Knock Off the lefties so it dies. Or just 2HKO it unconditionally (and OHKO Melmetal with Earth Power) by using Modest. Spam Freeze Dry against everything else. Pain in the ass to deal with and eventually breaks through fat teams by freezing or crits. Very dumb.
8. Melmetal
Haven’t actually decides whether I’d prefer it in OU. On one hand, it’s bullshit. On the other hand, it shits on Clef. CB 2HKOs the entire tier basically, coverage permitting. If anything gets chipped a little, or you misread the option, shit will die. People keep praising Acid Armor but I haven’t seen it do shit.
9. Zeraora
Another mon with no switchins. Random scarfers and chip damage can keep it at bay but most scarfers are pretty ass rn and chip is mitigated by Clef. Always a headache to play against.
Anyway, every team should have some structure along the lines of WishPort Clef + a breaker or two, then Corv, Pex/Toad, and filler, and that can win like 80% of games. Boring, but effective.
I’ve laddered for reqs several times now and tilted while at the cusp of fulfillment, so I might keep trying or I might jump off a bridge instead, who knows. I’ll add some of the teams I used in a little while. Moral of the story is that this meta is full of bullshit but I’m optimistic that things will be more fun when DLC 1 drops. I highly doubt that Melmetal will significantly improved or worsen the meta should it be unbanned.
As a follow-up to my previous post about LORD VISH, I want to highlight something. I will go through the entire VR S to B- and categorise each mon as Defensive, Offensive or Either. (You'll see the point when I'm done)
SS OU Ranking Tier List
(In alphabetical order)
S Rank:
S Rank
Clefable Clef is obviously the best mon in the tier rn. WishPort is near-mandatory for decent Balance/Semi-Stall and holds the tier together by a thread. Life Orb is also a great pick, especially for BO.
CorviknightCorv is the tier's #1 hazard remover and all-around blanket check. Its great longevity, together with the ability to become a wincon on certain sets, makes it a top choice on most Balanced playstyles.
A Rank:
A+ Rank
Aegislash Top offensive threat, very unpredictable, set-dependent switch-ins.
Dragapult Another top offensive threat, capable of serving as speed control without needing a Scarf. Dragon Dance sets are popular HO picks.
Excadrill Offensive threat/hazard control compression. Sand Rush sets give Sand Balance a reason to exist.
Hydreigon Offensive powerhouse, no true switch-ins.
Kommo-o Uncommon Stealth Rocker due to the prevalence of Toad. Capable of becoming a wincon with Iron Defence. Belly Drum sets also have a place on HO.
Rotom-Heat Fairy check and Ground immunity that also functions as pivot and breaker. Can run Defog if required.
Toxapex The ultimate defensive wall. Often suffers from being overloaded and 4MSS due to the vast number of threats it is tasked with checking, including Dracovish.
Zeraora Offers similar speed control to Dragapult and has the capability to set up with Bulk Up. At home on a wide variety of playstyles, but missing some punch from its hits or longevity if it runs Life Orb.
A Rank
Conkeldurr Incredible Guts breaker, no switchins. Mach Punch provides priority.
Ferrothorn Top defensive wall, capable of running a wide variety of utility, including hazards. Lacks reliable recovery however.
Kyurem Specs breaker, limited switch-ins. Often ends up freezing checks over a long game. Dragon Dance sets exist but are limited in popularity.
Mandibuzz Defogger/Wall. Used as a blanket Ghost check and is the most dependable Aegi switch-in. Hates Toxic however.
Seismitoad Wall/Rocker. The most splashable Rocker due to its ability to check Dracovish. Often used as a blanket check to Electric moves, but is easy to wear down. Swift Swim sets see limited use.
Terrakion Powerful breaker, limited switch-ins. Can run Scarf for Speed control.
A- Rank
Cloyster HO sweeper, cheeses checks with King's Rock.
Dracovish Most deadly breaker in the tier or dead weight, very hit/miss. Unstoppable without a Water Immunity under Rain.
Gengar Offensive threat, fastest viable Scarfer in the tier. Can also set up with Nasty Plot.
Jirachi Rocker/Utility/Offensive Scarfer. Can hax its way to glory.
Sylveon (no longer deserving of current rank due to Clef's dominance, so will not be counting it)
Togekiss Offensive threat, capable of breaking down slower teams with Nasty Plot and flinches. Scarf and utility sets rare at best.
I'll stop here and count what we have so far. Offensive 12 Defensive 4 Either 5
Already this tells a pretty stark story. The A and S ranks have less defensive mons than offensive mons even when discounting the offensive sets of the mons that can do both. And the picture only gets more stark as you go down the VR...
B Rank:
B+ Rank
Bisharp Great offensive breaker and HO staple.
Hatterene Magic Bounce user with high Spa. Utility sets exist, but are normally rejected in favour of Calm Mind, AoA and sometimes OTR sets.
Hippowdon Defensive wall and Sand staple. Should be higher IMO.
Keldeo Special Breaker. Can stallbreak, but that capability is not required in the current meta.
Mamoswine Offensive breaker. Can set Rocks but rarely does in practice.
Obstagoon Offensive Guts breaker with excellent speed tier. Held back by lack of ultimate power and competition with Conk.
Rotom-Wash Utility mon. Mostly outclassed by Rotom-H.
Tyranitar Offensive Stealth Rocker/breaker. Mostly outclassed but brings Sand and some defensive utility.
B Rank
Cinderace HO staple thanks to Court Change and U-turn, together with a blistering Attack and Speed.
Crawdaunt Powerful breaker with priority. Frail and reliant on STABs however.
Ditto Blanket revenge killer/cover-all defensive threat. Can stallbreak through PP stall, but again that is rarely required.
Gastrodon Alternative Water Absorber with recovery. Very passive however.
Grimmsnarl Screen setter. Can be a sweeper with Bulk Up, but weak.
Hawlucha Sweeper/cleaner. Reliant on slow, one-time setup.
Mantine (No longer deserving of current rank due to Metronome nerf.)
Necrozma Sweeper with many different setup moves. Utility sets are not used. Weak unboosted and often walled.
Primarina Specs breaker or Perish trapper. Weaker than common threats.
Reuniclus Wincon that makes itself invincible with Acid Armour and Calm Mind. Hard to fit on teams.
Rotom-Mow Breaker that attempts to exploit common structures. Currently failing.
Snorlax Blanket special wall that becomes a wincon with Curse. Slow and lacking recovery.
B- Rank
Dracozolt Inferior Dracovish that uses Sub to compensate for its miss rate and common immunities.
Gyarados Dragon Dance Sweeper. Situational pick.
Sigilyph Magic Guard breaker. Limited in use.
Torkoal Sun setter.
Venusaur Sun sweeper.
Xatu Magic Bounce user with access to Teleport. Very passive and fairly frail too.
Offensive 15 Defensive 3 Either 7
(And I was very generous with some of those purples lol)
Total B- or higher viable mons: Offensive 27 Defensive 7 Either 12
There is simply way, way, way too many offensive mons, and way, way too few defensive mons to check them in the tier. The defensive mons we have are very good, but they can simply be overloaded or blindsided by a threat you didn't see coming in the builder. Even more stark right now is how elite the current metagame is. Everything in the A and S ranks is a world away from everything in the B ranks (bar Hippo and maybe Bisharp). Teambuilding ATM just seems to boil down to picking the one niche mon to build around and throwing on staples or just forgetting the niche mon entirely and building a team of S and A ranks because all the half-decent defensive threats are there, and the offensive threats that are there usually outclass everything else by a lightyear. This metagame is so heavily centralised it's scary.
Edit:
In SPL, the tier which had the fewest mons reach 10% use was RBY (ofc). But did you know SS OU was 2nd on that list?
# of Mons that reached 10% usage by tier:
SS OU: 14 (One of which was Dugtrio)
DOU: 15
LC: 18
SM: 24
ORAS: 21
BW: 18
DPP: 23
ADV: 19
GSC: 16
RBY: 11
I'm sure some of that can be out down to people experimenting with 1-off mons. But on the other hand, 12 out of those 14 breached 20% use, and one of the others was Zeraora, who literally did not exist for half the tour. The post-HOME stats make slightly easier reading with, 18 mons breaching 10%. On the other hand, Clef's absurd 83% usage rate post-HOME is worrying, but can be out down to the buffs HOME gave it. But then how to explain Corv's 63% post-HOME usage rate?
It is absolutely criminal how no one is discussing Sirfetch'd.
The duck's sheer offensive capabilities - with its ridiculous base 135 Attack stat, ok speed and spammable STAB Close Combat (not even fearing the Ghost-types of the tier thanks to Scrappy) - makes it a solid breaker.
It can easily destroy balance cores of Clefable/Corviknight/Seismitoad spamming its STAB, as Clefable is now running more specially defensive sets, allowing Sirfetch'd to pretty much always 2HKO it.
Moreover, access to priority First Impression provides a reliable check to a plethora of offensive pokemon in the tier such as Zeraora, chipped away Dracovish and Bisharp (in case it has gotten many boosts), Defog allows Sirfetch'd to provide utility by removing hazards on a switch in and Knock Off provides a spammable pair to Close Combat.
6. Dracovish
Dumbest mon in OU. Fishous Rend is mindless and destroys any team lacking either Pex Ferro or Toad. The first two lose anyway if rain is up. Extremely restrictive to team building as a result and a major headache to play around.
9. Zeraora
Another mon with no switchins. Random scarfers and chip damage can keep it at bay but most scarfers are pretty ass rn and chip is mitigated by Clef. Always a headache to play against.
Anyway, every team should have some structure along the lines of WishPort Clef + a breaker or two, then Corv, Pex/Toad, and filler, and that can win like 80% of games. Boring, but effective.
I've been using thunderpwoell's freeze-dry mixed focus sash mamoswine and it works wonders. Sash tanks and freeze dry ohko's vish, has a chance to OHKO seismitoad, while eq 2hko's toxapex and ohko's zeraora. This thing gets it's mileage, although those expecting the freeze-dry will be able to deal with it a bit better. Especially since a lot of people just click vish at the start when they don't see toad/some other check
JTD783hit on most my gripes but I'd like to just throw in my agreement how stupid Dracovish actually is and how much it contributes to the general staleness of this tier. It's dumb, it's not healthy and restricts so many builds. The risk reward is off the charts using the ooga booga mon. OU would be drastically less bad to both build for and play in if it left the tier.
It is fringe viable at best; I would not recommend using it. Probably some combination of Teleport + Morning Sun + a Fire STAB and a filler move on a defensive variant could suffice with Heavy Duty Boots equipped.
Have sun with it and you'll have Arcanine working beyond it's normal abilities. Sun gives it boosted morning sun and also boosted fire STAB for serious damage.
Have sun with it and you'll have Arcanine working beyond it's normal abilities. Sun gives it boosted morning sun and also boosted fire STAB for serious damage.
Paradoxically, I might consider Arcanine a suboptimal choice for a sun team due to the generally superior choices for sweepers in Venusaur, Cinderace and Darmanitan. It does have Wild Charge for Pelipper, but that hardly helps with its issue of being easily revenge killed. If anything, I'd run Arcanine as a defensive patch for teams lacking a good Clefable / Sylveon / Hatterene switch in. Even on that front it's quite lacking.
Paradoxically, I might consider Arcanine a suboptimal choice for a sun team due to the generally superior choices for sweepers in Venusaur, Cinderace and Darmanitan. It does have Wild Charge for Pelipper, but that hardly helps with its issue of being easily revenge killed. If anything, I'd run Arcanine as a defensive patch for teams lacking a good Clefable / Sylveon / Hatterene switch in. Even on that front it's quite lacking.
I agree that Arcanine is an inferior offensive sweeper, but Arcanine wouldn't be used as a sweeper (probably should of made it clear in my post, my bad).
Reason for Arcanine being placed with sun is to maximize its defensive capabilities while it also giving it a much needed punch to the attacks it delivers. Since a traditional offensive sun lacks the ability to be consistent in this meta, looking at Arcanine in these roles doesn't accurately represent it. For a sun team, a more bulkier one would suit Arcanine best as it would be a option defensively that outshines other options entirely with longevity and bulk. The fire type that is in the same tier defensively as Arcanine is Rotom Heat, but it doesn't have morning sun recovery or teleport pivoting, so Arcanine ends up as your best choice.
