Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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Dragon dance tyranitar was always largely unviable because even jolly DD sets are outsped by a +1 ttar, but now that restriction is gone and for the most part many pokemon finding themselves faster than a tyranitar after a DD are not abel to ko him in time before being koed back making DD tyranitar a threat to more than just slower bulky teams. Thanks to his exllent offensive typing ability that increases his solid special bulk and existing great physical bulk he's ready to be a solid threat once more.
 
I think a big winner from arena trap being banned was toxtricity. It can now spam its strong STAB move overdrive and even stronger punk rock boosted Boomburst. obviously, its common checks like dragapult( which is a shaky check) and ferrothorn are still in the tier. Despite this, i think toxtricity benefitted the most from arena trap's removal. It can now use sets such as shift gear throat spray making it a sufficient cleaner or sweeper for bulky offense and offense teams.
 
I think something in this line is misstated.
I assume he meant to say that +1 Jolly TTar was outsped by Jolly Dugtrio and is better now that that is gone. And while Dugtrio being banned does help, I'm not convinced it will be all that good. Even at +1 you're still revenge killed even at 100% by Zeraora, HJK Cinderace, scarf Gengar w/focus blast, scarf Keld, scarf Terrak, Conkeldurr, and scarf Dracovish, while scarf Jirachi 2HKO's with Iron Head which is poor odds for TTar. Also Dragapult can burn it, defensive Kommo-o takes any hit and OHKO's with Body Press, as does Ferro unless you carry Fire Punch, Corviknight also does a lot with Body Press and sand rush Exca has a chance to OHKO with leftovers + jolly, if it's adamant or has life orb then it for sure does... so yeah, while a set with DD and weakness policy or something sounds fun and may pull off the occasional sweep, I still don't think DD TTar will be that great in the post-Arena Trap meta. Setting up on Clefables that don't carry Thunder Wave is a plus, though.
 

ausma

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I'll take my own shot at these questions, since I have a couple of hot takes to spread

1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?



These four mons (mainly the first three) are pretty big winners. Zeraora, Terrakion, and Kyurem are extremely menacing breakers that always had to be wary of Dugtrio's trapping potential, but now they're a lot more free to go even more ham than they've been the past month or so.

Cinderace doesn't benefit as greatly from Duggie, but it can definitely be played much more aggressively and freely, which it appreciates for sure; it also partners well with Toxtricity to dismantle a lot of the tier's most common defensive cores.

2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?


I actually kind of disagree on the idea that Toxtricity is going to die out as sharply as suggested. Toxtricity has an extremely valuable niche in the fact that it can dismantle extremely fat cores (Corvi/Pex/Clef/Toad) singlehandedly outside of Ferrothorn, and with Pex likely going to rise, it will be even more valuable. Punk Rock Boomburst is also just an amazing midground breaking move, and something it has over Dracozolt as a Electric-typed fat breaker. However, that being said, it is by no means going to be a top tier threat due to its middling defenses and speed, but its niche will be a lot more effective now that Duggie can't threaten it on a KO.

It's worth saying that a Toxtricity + Cinderace core is extremely menacing in its own right, but now that Duggie isn't around to threaten it for just existing, it's a lot more free to wreak havoc on the tier. Hippo rising will also give it yet a more specialized niche in what it breaks as opposed to Dracozolt.


I could see Dracozolt having more of a realized niche as well, but I think it might get more mileage out of a Substitute set as opposed to a Scarfed/Banded set. Seismitoad is a giant peg in its gameplan, but it can pry apart every other fat mon in the tier, and the ability to swap its moves will be much more valuable at the current moment so it doesn't have to take as many risks (with Hustle as well). Though, it hates the new influx of Hippo use, and is inconsistent by nature due to Hustle, so I don't think it'll be as flexible of a breaker as Toxtricity and will die out a lot more sharply.

This being said, though, I do think these two Pokemon will drop off a bit later, but I can't deny that they'll be better now.

3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?


My Incineroar bias is gonna kick up here, but I'm gonna say it. While it had the ability to pivot out or Wisp Duggie on the switch, being able to hard switch out without worries of taking a giant, SE STAB EQ is a giant boon for it, as now it has even more flexibility as a pivot. I still hold my stance that it has a solid niche in the metagame, and now even more of one now that it can more selectively and soak hits as it needs to, and pivot accordingly.


I hate this thing.


I actually think the Screens HO playstyle has gotten better since offensive behemoths such as Zeraora/Terrakion don't have to worry about being trapped. They can much more effectively and aggressively set up without the threat of Duggie to come in abruptly, and I believe Screens will catch on to further capitalize on this offensive potential down the line. Ninetales in particular stands out to me, since it resists Kyurem's Freeze Dry/Ice Beam and outspeeds with a Moonblast/Veil, and just lets Bulk Up Zeraora clean house.

4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?

Fat cores for sure have taken a giant hit from the ban. They have to watch out for offensive cores that Duggie once hard checked, because there are a lot of offensive behemoths that do a pretty great job at deconstructing them without having to worry about being trapped.

5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?

I think fat will die out somewhat and become more balance oriented. Toxapex and Clefable appreciate not being trapped by Duggie, but the cores they worked well on took a hard hit from losing the mon that allowed for them to keep their defenses intact. Contrarily, though, Hippowdon is on the rise, and I highly expect it'll become even better now that Terrakion and Zeraora are going to become more prevalent.

As stated above, I think Screens will become more prevalent as well as a way to combat and capitalize on the fact that Duggie can't trap setting up Zeraora/Terrakion, allowing for more aggressive HO playstyles to maybe flourish on the side.

6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned?

This is really hard to say, but I'm looking toward Kyurem and Zeraora if anything. I want to make clear that I think we definitely need time before we suspect anything else, but these two are the ones that stand out to me the most right now.


I believe Kyurem's potential is a bit overhyped due to the prevalence of SpDef Clefable, the rise of SpDef Corviknight, and the new prevalence of common offensive checks like Terrakion and Zeraora. But, I think this thing is still extremely dangerous and might be worth suspecting down the line depending on how the meta shapes up.


Zeraora I feel is a bit more cause of concern, and it's because of one move: Grass Knot. Unlike Kyurem, it doesn't really have a consistent answer, as things like Hippowdon and Seismitoad are hard checked by Grass Knot, and it's not very hard to chip down Hippowdon to get it in range of the KO. Additionally, it's much more offensively versatile than Kyurem, and if you get the set wrong, it can pretty easily set up with Bulk Up and dismantle your team. It has a pretty similar problem to Gyarados in UU where if you predict the set wrong, you can and will be punished hard (but not to the same degree, I feel). It's true that Rotom-H is a pretty good answer, but Rotom can get pretty effectively chipped down, and since it can't recover reliably, it will fold to Bulk Up sets. I mentioned Screens earlier as well, and Zeraora will be a pretty scary example of what can come of it if not prepared for.
 
I accidentally placed this in the wrong thing earlier but worth a repost. From my knowledge this is where I'm suppose to place this, enjoy.

What should a good meta look like?

Pokemon, a game that from my own experience that can test your creativity in both building and playing with teams. The beauty of building is when you have the freedom to run a wide variety of stuff that can work but a skill gap that coincides with the players ability to preform when using teams. I call this a expression of art at times but sadly even with Duggy gone I feel that this meta doesn't allow much flexibility nor creativity. Each team that is used is only one extreme of a play style, now extremes in general aren't a good thing in the first place but this is past the threshold of room for creativity and instead cycles the same old ideas out for other ones. Although last generation does have some issues what it did have was room for creativity that could be seen in many consistently good teams of many varieties. I only have this thread up to question what kind of meta do we want because at the moment I feel there has to be certain things that must be visited once DLC comes out.

1) Pokemon that put a gigantic vice grip on what you can use defensively and creatively.

While breakers are common in every meta that are overwhelming that need checks of much variety, this is getting over the top. Now for any good team you must have some way to check threats, Dracovish severely limits you in this regard as it will thrash any team without insane bulk or revenge killers with no in between on how to handle it. Other pokemon some could argue that fall into this category are Dracozolt and Kyurem. Dracozolt, while crazy strong, has a true immunity in the ground type which is much more accessible than a water immune pokemon/toxapex being forced onto every team. Kyurem, also insanely good, can be rotated around with fairy types immune to draco and many solid ice resist in the tier. What this overwhelming amount of strain comes the reaction of extremes to fight that off, this created a extremely high usage of very fat teams, this creates many teams that are built solely to break these builds. If you want a good meta you shouldn't have purely extremes pulling against each other with little of anything else in sight. With Dracovish here, this will continue to persist and even get worse.

2) If balance teams can't exist there is a issue within a meta.

This is something that is represents a solid meta to me is when balance teams have the capability of being used in both high usage, quality, and variety. Balance teams express the fact that there is a solid amount of breakers and defensive pieces in place to create a meta that is skilled based in building and playing. Balance teams also let other teams that are more niche become more effective as they're there to adjust accordingly to the meta or be their own independent selves. Balance team archetypes can adjust like a rubber band to what goes around them, but currently there is so little of that it's laughable at best.

3) Lack of solid pokemon in many areas.

This is the least concerning one by far as the DLC should erase this immediately. I bring this up not that I don't think it'll fix itself but only because this is a glaring flaw in the meta. Normal, steel, and fire types have little options, no great bulky grass, not a single great choice scarf user, and also not a crazy amount of options for role compression. If for some reason this shows up during DLC it'll likely be because of a pokemon within the tier being too overwhelming in the first place. There are other assortment of issues within the meta but this clears up most of it.

Conclusion: Anything that suffocates team building to such insane lengths should go as soon as possible.

I pose the question of what do you think should be place the meta should be to get the best opportunity for freedom of building?
 
I'll take my own shot at these questions, since I have a couple of hot takes to spread

1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?



These four mons (mainly the first three) are pretty big winners. Zeraora, Terrakion, and Kyurem are extremely menacing breakers that always had to be wary of Dugtrio's trapping potential, but now they're a lot more free to go even more ham than they've been the past month or so.

Cinderace doesn't benefit as greatly from Duggie, but it can definitely be played much more aggressively and freely, which it appreciates for sure; it also partners well with Toxtricity to dismantle a lot of the tier's most common defensive cores.

2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?


I actually kind of disagree on the idea that Toxtricity is going to die out as sharply as suggested. Toxtricity has an extremely valuable niche in the fact that it can dismantle extremely fat cores (Corvi/Pex/Clef/Toad) singlehandedly outside of Ferrothorn, and with Pex likely going to rise, it will be even more valuable. Punk Rock Boomburst is also just an amazing midground breaking move, and something it has over Dracozolt as a Electric-typed fat breaker. However, that being said, it is by no means going to be a top tier threat due to its middling defenses and speed, but its niche will be a lot more effective now that Duggie can't threaten it on a KO.

It's worth saying that a Toxtricity + Cinderace core is extremely menacing in its own right, but now that Duggie isn't around to threaten it for just existing, it's a lot more free to wreak havoc on the tier. Hippo rising will also give it yet a more specialized niche in what it breaks as opposed to Dracozolt.


I could see Dracozolt having more of a realized niche as well, but I think it might get more mileage out of a Substitute set as opposed to a Scarfed/Banded set. Seismitoad is a giant peg in its gameplan, but it can pry apart every other fat mon in the tier, and the ability to swap its moves will be much more valuable at the current moment so it doesn't have to take as many risks (with Hustle as well). Though, it hates the new influx of Hippo use, and is inconsistent by nature due to Hustle, so I don't think it'll be as flexible of a breaker as Toxtricity and will die out a lot more sharply.

This being said, though, I do think these two Pokemon will drop off a bit later, but I can't deny that they'll be better now.

3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?


My Incineroar bias is gonna kick up here, but I'm gonna say it. While it had the ability to pivot out or Wisp Duggie on the switch, being able to hard switch out without worries of taking a giant, SE STAB EQ is a giant boon for it, as now it has even more flexibility as a pivot. I still hold my stance that it has a solid niche in the metagame, and now even more of one now that it can more selectively and soak hits as it needs to, and pivot accordingly.


I hate this thing.


I actually think the Screens HO playstyle has gotten better since offensive behemoths such as Zeraora/Terrakion don't have to worry about being trapped. They can much more effectively and aggressively set up without the threat of Duggie to come in abruptly, and I believe Screens will catch on to further capitalize on this offensive potential down the line. Ninetales in particular stands out to me, since it resists Kyurem's Freeze Dry/Ice Beam and outspeeds with a Moonblast/Veil, and just lets Bulk Up Zeraora clean house.

4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?

Fat cores for sure have taken a giant hit from the ban. They have to watch out for offensive cores that Duggie once hard checked, because there are a lot of offensive behemoths that do a pretty great job at deconstructing them without having to worry about being trapped.

5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?

I think fat will die out somewhat and become more balance oriented. Toxapex and Clefable appreciate not being trapped by Duggie, but the cores they worked well on took a hard hit from losing the mon that allowed for them to keep their defenses intact. Contrarily, though, Hippowdon is on the rise, and I highly expect it'll become even better now that Terrakion and Zeraora are going to become more prevalent.

As stated above, I think Screens will become more prevalent as well as a way to combat and capitalize on the fact that Duggie can't trap setting up Zeraora/Terrakion, allowing for more aggressive HO playstyles to maybe flourish on the side.

6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned?

This is really hard to say, but I'm looking toward Kyurem and Zeraora if anything. I want to make clear that I think we definitely need time before we suspect anything else, but these two are the ones that stand out to me the most right now.


I believe Kyurem's potential is a bit overhyped due to the prevalence of SpDef Clefable, the rise of SpDef Corviknight, and the new prevalence of common offensive checks like Terrakion and Zeraora. But, I think this thing is still extremely dangerous and might be worth suspecting down the line depending on how the meta shapes up.


Zeraora I feel is a bit more cause of concern, and it's because of one move: Grass Knot. Unlike Kyurem, it doesn't really have a consistent answer, as things like Hippowdon and Seismitoad are hard checked by Grass Knot, and it's not very hard to chip down Hippowdon to get it in range of the KO. Additionally, it's much more offensively versatile than Kyurem, and if you get the set wrong, it can pretty easily set up with Bulk Up and dismantle your team. It has a pretty similar problem to Gyarados in UU where if you predict the set wrong, you can and will be punished hard (but not to the same degree, I feel). It's true that Rotom-H is a pretty good answer, but Rotom can get pretty effectively chipped down, and since it can't recover reliably, it will fold to Bulk Up sets. I mentioned Screens earlier as well, and Zeraora will be a pretty scary example of what can come of it if not prepared for.
Regarding Dracozolt I personally feel like I`d rather use band over sub. Basically, if I use Sub Zolt the opportunity costs (although it has some minor advantages, like being a check to Rotom-H lacking Wisp) of not using Zeraora make it just not worthwhile using, especially as it fails, in contrast to zeraora, brake through sturdier ground types (as you have mentioned - although the only really present one rn is hippowdon, seis can be broken through a bit easier with it lacking recovery and being 3hkoed). Furthermore it obviously is slower and rather ineffective against offense, combined with the fact that it is a bit unreliable at times due to hustle. Now, the latter point may sound contradictive to what I will be saying next (as sub helps a bit with the unreliability because you dont throw away a sometimes crucial breaker when you miss) but I appreciate band being more powerful than its competitor physically (and destroying non immune walls with bolt beak) able to immediately pressure the opponent, essentially expanding its niche as a breaker. For instance, banded Bolt Beak outright OHKOes Rotom-H on the switch in and Clefable and the likes of Kommo-o and Ferrothorn fail to avoid the 2HKO as well, Dragon Claw 2HKOes Seismitoad and Hippo in conjunktion with Spikes, while Outrage does that without the Aid of Spikes but making it more vulnerable to revenge kills of course.
 
1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?
2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?
3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?
4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?
5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?
6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned? Don't go overboard with this one.
1.

The metagame got a whole lot better for these three Pokemon. Terrakion and Kyurem no longer have to worry about Dugtrio trapping and eliminating them and can focus on breaking balance with other sets. Kyurem is something that's just utterly fantastic in OU even when Dugtrio was around, with sets like Choice Specs and Substitute being great for breaking. I'm interested to see how Terrakion will play out in OU, since it's also a good breaker with a nice Speed tier to beat other breakers like Kyurem / Hydreigon and can set Stealth Rock. Aside from those two, we have Jirachi which is a cool Pokemon that can fill different roles, and I can see it being used more often because it can check Pokemon like Clefable, Kyurem and Togekiss really nicely with its Steel typing, Wish, nice bulk, and Iron Head and doesn't have to worry about being trapped by Dugtrio now.

2.

Dracozolt is a Pokemon I could see people hyping up because it can take advantage of Pokemon like Clefable, Toxapex, Mandibuzz and Ferrothorn nicely with Substitute, but ultimately won't have a huge impact on the post Arena Trap metagame because of fat Grounds like Hippowdon and Seismitoad being present in the metagame and its reliance on Hustle making it inconsistent.

3.

Salazzle is something I've used pre Arena Trap ban, but now that Arena Trap is gone, I've been enjoying it even more. Being able to Toxic a lot of key defensive Pokemon as well as being able to threaten Clefable with Venoshock is a really nice niche to have in a meta full of balance. It punishes a lot of the fat cores including Pokemon like Clefable, Corviknight, Seismitoad, Toxapex, Ferrothorn and gets switches in on a majority of Clefable's sets, especially when Wish + Teleport is huge right now. Beforehand, Dugtrio straight up trapped and eliminated it, but now that Arena Trap is gone, I could see it being used to punish a lot of balanced teams because of its ability to basically Toxic everything. The main Pokemon that switches into it is Snorlax, but other than that, its pretty frustrating to deal with with the right support. Some replays: 1 2 3

6.

Zeraora is huge in OU because of its multiple sets and lack of solid checks and counters, and now doesn't have to be worried about Dugtrio trapping and eliminating it. Traditional checks to the tried and true Bulk Up sets like Kommo-o, Hippowdon, and Seismitoad all have to worry about Zeraora potentially carrying moves like Play Rough, and Grass Knot that prevent them from being effective answers. Otherwise, Zeraora's dominating the OU tier right now with its amazing Speed tier, high offensive stats, and nice coverage, turning it into a massive offensive threat for many teams.
 

EC2K63

Banned deucer.
1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?
In my opinions Bisharp and Kyurem might see the biggest spike now that Dugtrio is banned because:

1.Kyurem: Kyurem was already an awesome mon even with Dugtrio because it is one of the few that can reliably break teams with its Ice Beam. Now with Duggy banned it cant get revenged killed that easily and Wish Clefable can easily get up its HP due to the buff to Teleport if needed.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 195-229 (48.7 - 57.2%)

with a modest nature and the help of a Knock Off user it can 2-hit KO the 2 most common switchins pretty comfortably without getting trapped and revenge killed.

2.Bisharp: In my opinions Bisharp was also strong before Dugtrio got banned but with its ban it can obviously stay in more comfortably. Hippo and Kommo, the 2 most common switchins, are still really annoying for Bisharp which might hold it back but with good support and mons that can take advantage of these 2 switchins its imagineable that Bisharp+Zeraora (with ebelt, gk, play rough) for example might be a good way to lure and chip Bisharps counter for it to sweep.

Overall i think that other of the listed mons like Dracozolt or Obstagoon are held back by other factors and that their design is just overall not that good as Bisharps or Kyurems for example.
 

ani ibi procidat

Banned deucer.
I'll take my own shot at these questions, since I have a couple of hot takes to spread

1. What mons from above do you believe will see a spike in usage?



These four mons (mainly the first three) are pretty big winners. Zeraora, Terrakion, and Kyurem are extremely menacing breakers that always had to be wary of Dugtrio's trapping potential, but now they're a lot more free to go even more ham than they've been the past month or so.

Cinderace doesn't benefit as greatly from Duggie, but it can definitely be played much more aggressively and freely, which it appreciates for sure; it also partners well with Toxtricity to dismantle a lot of the tier's most common defensive cores.

2. Which mons do you think will be overhyped and have their usage die down after a few days/weeks?


I actually kind of disagree on the idea that Toxtricity is going to die out as sharply as suggested. Toxtricity has an extremely valuable niche in the fact that it can dismantle extremely fat cores (Corvi/Pex/Clef/Toad) singlehandedly outside of Ferrothorn, and with Pex likely going to rise, it will be even more valuable. Punk Rock Boomburst is also just an amazing midground breaking move, and something it has over Dracozolt as a Electric-typed fat breaker. However, that being said, it is by no means going to be a top tier threat due to its middling defenses and speed, but its niche will be a lot more effective now that Duggie can't threaten it on a KO.

It's worth saying that a Toxtricity + Cinderace core is extremely menacing in its own right, but now that Duggie isn't around to threaten it for just existing, it's a lot more free to wreak havoc on the tier. Hippo rising will also give it yet a more specialized niche in what it breaks as opposed to Dracozolt.


I could see Dracozolt having more of a realized niche as well, but I think it might get more mileage out of a Substitute set as opposed to a Scarfed/Banded set. Seismitoad is a giant peg in its gameplan, but it can pry apart every other fat mon in the tier, and the ability to swap its moves will be much more valuable at the current moment so it doesn't have to take as many risks (with Hustle as well). Though, it hates the new influx of Hippo use, and is inconsistent by nature due to Hustle, so I don't think it'll be as flexible of a breaker as Toxtricity and will die out a lot more sharply.

This being said, though, I do think these two Pokemon will drop off a bit later, but I can't deny that they'll be better now.

3. What mons not included above may do you think will see more usage in OU?


My Incineroar bias is gonna kick up here, but I'm gonna say it. While it had the ability to pivot out or Wisp Duggie on the switch, being able to hard switch out without worries of taking a giant, SE STAB EQ is a giant boon for it, as now it has even more flexibility as a pivot. I still hold my stance that it has a solid niche in the metagame, and now even more of one now that it can more selectively and soak hits as it needs to, and pivot accordingly.


I hate this thing.


I actually think the Screens HO playstyle has gotten better since offensive behemoths such as Zeraora/Terrakion don't have to worry about being trapped. They can much more effectively and aggressively set up without the threat of Duggie to come in abruptly, and I believe Screens will catch on to further capitalize on this offensive potential down the line. Ninetales in particular stands out to me, since it resists Kyurem's Freeze Dry/Ice Beam and outspeeds with a Moonblast/Veil, and just lets Bulk Up Zeraora clean house.

4. Aside from Arena Trap users (Dugtrio, Trapinch and Diglett), is there anything that may see less usage now that Arena Trap is banned?

Fat cores for sure have taken a giant hit from the ban. They have to watch out for offensive cores that Duggie once hard checked, because there are a lot of offensive behemoths that do a pretty great job at deconstructing them without having to worry about being trapped.

5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Arena Trap is banned?

I think fat will die out somewhat and become more balance oriented. Toxapex and Clefable appreciate not being trapped by Duggie, but the cores they worked well on took a hard hit from losing the mon that allowed for them to keep their defenses intact. Contrarily, though, Hippowdon is on the rise, and I highly expect it'll become even better now that Terrakion and Zeraora are going to become more prevalent.

As stated above, I think Screens will become more prevalent as well as a way to combat and capitalize on the fact that Duggie can't trap setting up Zeraora/Terrakion, allowing for more aggressive HO playstyles to maybe flourish on the side.

6. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Arena Trap is banned?

This is really hard to say, but I'm looking toward Kyurem and Zeraora if anything. I want to make clear that I think we definitely need time before we suspect anything else, but these two are the ones that stand out to me the most right now.


I believe Kyurem's potential is a bit overhyped due to the prevalence of SpDef Clefable, the rise of SpDef Corviknight, and the new prevalence of common offensive checks like Terrakion and Zeraora. But, I think this thing is still extremely dangerous and might be worth suspecting down the line depending on how the meta shapes up.


Zeraora I feel is a bit more cause of concern, and it's because of one move: Grass Knot. Unlike Kyurem, it doesn't really have a consistent answer, as things like Hippowdon and Seismitoad are hard checked by Grass Knot, and it's not very hard to chip down Hippowdon to get it in range of the KO. Additionally, it's much more offensively versatile than Kyurem, and if you get the set wrong, it can pretty easily set up with Bulk Up and dismantle your team. It has a pretty similar problem to Gyarados in UU where if you predict the set wrong, you can and will be punished hard (but not to the same degree, I feel). It's true that Rotom-H is a pretty good answer, but Rotom can get pretty effectively chipped down, and since it can't recover reliably, it will fold to Bulk Up sets. I mentioned Screens earlier as well, and Zeraora will be a pretty scary example of what can come of it if not prepared for.
Thank-you for a very informative post ! I certainly am in agreement with the thesis that Zeraora has much potential, which is most pleasing as he is certainly a favorite of mine !
 
I've noticed a lot of people talking about things that were helped by Dugtrio ban, and we all seem to be at a consensus regarding the 'mons that should have a much more established niche in the current metagame. However, and I may have missed this, but I haven't seen too many people discussing things that were actually hurt by the departure of our three headed trapper. So, here goes nothing.
(No, not you. You weren't invited to this gen.)

This 'mon hasn't taken the biggest hit, but I do feel that it has been the most prevalent in my own games. Both Scarf and Specs Keldeo have a solid niche as a special attacker, something this generation was desperately needing for a while, but both sets really require you to take Toxapex out of the equation. Obviously, most Pex were pigeon-holed into holding a Shed Shell anyways, but the few that were foolish enough to go without would inevitably face the consequences. With Duggy gone, I expect to see Keldeo's presence dwindle slightly.

Togekiss is actually one of the few 'mons that will probably go untouched by this ban, despite it being a pretty solid nerf to its best set, Nasty Plot. For starters, we must address the obvious. Nobody really runs Aura Sphere this gen. They haven't needed to, Tyranitar's loss of Pursuit has made most people drop it like it's hot, and the lack of Heatran adds onto that. For the few still using Tyranitar, well, Togekiss could easily be paired with Dugtrio, who covers it's weaknesses extremely well. Now, however, you not only have that option gone, but the rise of Electric types such as Toxtricity and Zeraora being a nuisance. I think Togekiss will survive and adapt with things like Seismitoad and Excadrill, but it undoubtedly makes pulling this thing off slightly more complicated.

It may have dropped to UU in usage, but Reuniclus has never been a joke. There's a reason that even in the psychic spam meta of Gen 7, with Lele Lucha and Zam galore, this thing was still seeing usage. But moving on from days past, we once again run into the issue of Tyranitar. Now, Reuniclus can try to setup Acid Armor, or attempt a Focus Blast if you're ballsy enough. Unfortunately, Tyranitar isn't the only issue in store. Aegislash, made more viable. Bisharp, made more viable. Jirachi, especially the SubCM variant despite the threat of flinch being enough not to specify, made more viable. And that's not even mentioning things that were and still perfectly viable regardless of the threat of trapping, such as Gengar and Hydreigon.

I swear this isn't troll. Let me explain. While there is no doubt in my mind that sun is just a worse version of sand or rain, the fact remains that with the addition of Weather Ball, Venusaur was somewhat viable in OU. However, even with this addition, Venusaur, as well as the rest of sun, utterly despises Toxapex. Dugtrio, again, was somewhat of a staple on these sun teams, so with it being gone, I have little doubt this spells the end for sun in this generation of OU.

So... yeah...
 
In my opinions Bisharp and Kyurem might see the biggest spike now that Dugtrio is banned because:

1.Kyurem: Kyurem was already an awesome mon even with Dugtrio because it is one of the few that can reliably break teams with its Ice Beam. Now with Duggy banned it cant get revenged killed that easily and Wish Clefable can easily get up its HP due to the buff to Teleport if needed.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 195-229 (48.7 - 57.2%)

with a modest nature and the help of a Knock Off user it can 2-hit KO the 2 most common switchins pretty comfortably without getting trapped and revenge killed.

2.Bisharp: In my opinions Bisharp was also strong before Dugtrio got banned but with its ban it can obviously stay in more comfortably. Hippo and Kommo, the 2 most common switchins, are still really annoying for Bisharp which might hold it back but with good support and mons that can take advantage of these 2 switchins its imagineable that Bisharp+Zeraora (with ebelt, gk, play rough) for example might be a good way to lure and chip Bisharps counter for it to sweep.

Overall i think that other of the listed mons like Dracozolt or Obstagoon are held back by other factors and that their design is just overall not that good as Bisharps or Kyurems for example.
Spedef Clef on his own isn't a check if getting frozen means a straight kyurem sweep it's problematic , the pink is usually paired with Spedef pex , outside of snorlax which is easily pressured thanks to Sr+dmetor only brozong eats his move well but sucks (slow ,kinda passiv and hard walled by corv is a problem ) gotta mention gyroball is set-up bait for sub Dd prot kyurem ....

Yea that dumbass set is another problem on his own with the mon being so bulky it shits on way too much team , haze pex looses the pp war no lefties aegi is baited and rotom-h too , if freeze dry is runned over prot wish jirachi/snorlax-less stall team are 6-0ed at preview (with some luck and heavy pressure snorlax isn't a stop to the set : +1 252 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 215-260 (41 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery )

Tbf a lot of people are saying leave the meta for a while since AT got recently banned but that mon needs to go asap . We don't need weeks to the see how much the meta is in a shitty state , currently there is only 3 viable playstyle , you got ho because too many broken stuff are running free , balance where 3 or 4 slot are unchangeable to check zera/exca/terrkion , vish , kyurem/dpult and cloyster or stall because stall is stall .
 
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I definitely agree that Incineroar is going to be one to watch out for as a pivot without Dugtrio around. What’s interesting is wether it’ll be U-turn or Parting Shot. With Bisharp probably being more viable PS becomes more of a gamble than ever. While Uturn is less momentum more consistent.
 

EC2K63

Banned deucer.
Spedef Clef on his own isn't a check if getting frozen means a straight kyurem sweep it's problematic , the pink is usually paired with Spedef pex , outside of snorlax which is easily pressured thanks to Sr+dmetor only brozong eats his move well but sucks (slow ,kinda passiv and hard walled by corv is a problem ) gotta mention gyroball is set-up bait for sub Dd prot kyurem ....
True. There areother switchins to Kyurem besides Clefable and Corviknight but these are the with the highest playrate if im not mistaking. I agree that Snorlax is a great switchin but its not as common as Corviknight and Clef. I really dont like the DD set on Kyurem since a lot of mons can comfortably eat a hit depending on the Icicle Spear hits.

edit: btw i dont know how to quote correctly on this site
 
Anyone else feel like dual screens is just super overbearing atm? With all the ridiculous offensive threats unless youre running unaware clef or running dual screens yourself, it's just super hard to deal with for any balance team I feel.
 
Anyone else feel like dual screens is just super overbearing atm? With all the ridiculous offensive threats unless youre running unaware clef or running dual screens yourself, it's just super hard to deal with for any balance team I feel.
early ladder it feels really easy to outplay dual screens and veil. I do feel a lot of people run it because it is a reliable and straightforward set for beginners. More capable mons with infiltrator wouldn’t hurt to deter the usage though. If Defog wasn’t so widely available like it was in the past then yeah I could see that claim. Weather based teams are slowly creeping higher as the De facto meta. Which gen was weather wars, Gen 4 or 5?
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Why does scarf hydreigon tend to be timid over modest? If timid, its speed hits 486; if modest, it's 442, which is still enough to outrun everything unboosted/not scarfed. I get that max speed-timid scarfed rotom hits 447 and out-speeds it, but none of the relevant rotoms beat hydreigon unless they're thunder wave, which I feel like only rotom-mow runs because heat and wash usually go with toxic for toad or sometimes wisp. Most of the other scarfers are either outrun by modest-442 (like scarfed dracovish only reaching 409, even if it's jolly) or outpace timid-486 (like gengar, terrak, and keldeo). 442 speed from modest is also enough speed to still outrun slower DD users like gyara after one boost, and most of the other setup sweepers, like cloyster, outrun the 486 from timid after they get going anyway. The only really notable advantage I can think of for timid over modest is that jolly drill hits 453 after a spin, so it out-speeds modest but not timid scarf hydreigon. The added power from modest is also notable, because things like fire blast go from being a 50% chance to OHKO drill to guaranteed, and fire blast also goes from only a 14.8% chance to 2HKO max SpDef corviknight after leftovers to 89.1% with modest.

That may not have been the easiest line of thinking to follow, but I guess I'm saying that I feel like modest on scarf hydreigon is at least worthy of consideration/mention, as the dex entry currently only lists timid for the nature. Strangely enough though, it does list timid/modest for the nasty plot set and discusses modest in the description there.
 
Spedef Clef on his own isn't a check if getting frozen means a straight kyurem sweep it's problematic , the pink is usually paired with Spedef pex , outside of snorlax which is easily pressured thanks to Sr+dmetor only brozong eats his move well but sucks (slow ,kinda passiv and hard walled by corv is a problem ) gotta mention gyroball is set-up bait for sub Dd prot kyurem ....

Yea that dumbass set is another problem on his own with the mon being so bulky it shits on way too much team , haze pex looses the pp war no lefties aegi is baited and rotom-h too , if freeze dry is runned over prot wish jirachi/snorlax-less stall team are 6-0ed at preview (with some luck and heavy pressure snorlax isn't a stop to the set : +1 252 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 215-260 (41 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery )

Tbf a lot of people are saying leave the meta for a while since AT got recently banned but that mon needs to go asap . We don't need weeks to the see how much the meta is in a shitty state , currently there is only 3 viable playstyle , you got ho because too many broken stuff are running free , balance where 3 or 4 slot are unchangeable to check zera/exca/terrkion , vish , kyurem/dpult and cloyster or stall because stall is stall .
totally agreed here, especially the teambuilding observation. We would be wasting our time "letting the meta settle". Kyu sucks for the meta, and there are plenty of unhealthy / broken things behind it that need to be attended to. I was hoping for more of a discussion on Kyu in this thread but sounds like it's a foregone conclusion. This current OU meta is in a horrible state. I'm not blaming the OU council since we've had to endure new releases and deal w dynamax but have to call a spade a spade, OU currently sucks
 
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Now that more than one month of thime have happened since we got access to Toxic+Recover Gastrodon...

Why is Seismitoad still having more use than Gastrodon? Both of them have now the same arsenal they had in other generations, and in all these other generations Gastrodon was the Water/Ground Pokemon by excelence while nobody used Seismitoad.
 
Now that more than one month of thime have happened since we got access to Toxic+Recover Gastrodon...

Why is Seismitoad still having more use than Gastrodon? Both of them have now the same arsenal they had in other generations, and in all these other generations Gastrodon was the Water/Ground Pokemon by excelence while nobody used Seismitoad.
Seismitoad has more offensive presence and it's faster
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Now that more than one month of thime have happened since we got access to Toxic+Recover Gastrodon...

Why is Seismitoad still having more use than Gastrodon? Both of them have now the same arsenal they had in other generations, and in all these other generations Gastrodon was the Water/Ground Pokemon by excelence while nobody used Seismitoad.
I think in previous generations, gastrodon usually starts out being overlooked and rises over time. The main advantage toad has over gastrodon is that the movepool restriction was very kind to toad, but hurt gastrodon a lot. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think gastrodon can learn toxic in SS. Recover is admittedly really nice for gastrodon over toad and clear smog can be important too, but not having the utility that toad offers through stealth rock (the biggest reason toad is used more), toxic, and knock off makes it hard to fit gastrodon on a team, where as toad fits very easily on many teams due to his role compression.
 
I think in previous generations, gastrodon usually starts out being overlooked and rises over time. The main advantage toad has over gastrodon is that the movepool restriction was very kind to toad, but hurt gastrodon a lot. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think gastrodon can learn toxic in SS. Recover is admittedly really nice for gastrodon over toad and clear smog can be important too, but not having the utility that toad offers through stealth rock (the biggest reason toad is used more), toxic, and knock off makes it hard to fit gastrodon on a team, where as toad fits very easily on many teams due to his role compression.
Gastrodon got Toxic back with Home. In theory the typical Scald-Toxic-Recover Gastrodon is already back.

Seismitoad has more offensive presence and it's faster
The thing that got me confused is that Seismotoad also had that presence and speed (and Stealth Rock) in previous generations, and these advantages were not enough, everybody picked Gastrodon over it. The only exception is being this generation.
 
Gastrodon got Toxic back with Home. In theory the typical Scald-Toxic-Recover Gastrodon is already back.



The thing that got me confused is that Seismotoad also had that presence and speed (and Stealth Rock) in previous generations, and these advantages were not enough, everybody picked Gastrodon over it. The only exception is being this generation.
Access to Power Whip and Liquidation, so now it can go mixed
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Gastrodon got Toxic back with Home. In theory the typical Scald-Toxic-Recover Gastrodon is already back.



The thing that got me confused is that Seismotoad also had that presence and speed (and Stealth Rock) in previous generations, and these advantages were not enough, everybody picked Gastrodon over it. The only exception is being this generation.
Ok yeah, I missed toxic coming back for him with home. I agree with you that gastrodon will likely rise in prominence again at some point, but I feel like the main reason now he isn't used as much as toad is just lack of stealth rock. There aren't as many viable stealth rock users in SS, as a result of there just being fewer pokemon altogether, so toad is comparatively more valuable than he ever has been (also largely due to dracovish but that lends value to gastrodon as well).
 
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