Just want to point out (though I'm sure it will be fixed) that the Ninetales sub was not supposed to get Leech Seed. Instead, it was given Strength Sap. Not sure how much this changes things, but it's worth noting.
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Pet Mod SS OU Theorymon (Completed)
- Thread starter Ardy
- Start date
Mbad, updating the post
Sad to see chops lose
Does losing stealth rock weakness help this Mon that much? I'm inclined to say no but but I will admit it could make for a decent future sighter, but nothing else since its offensive profile is still abysmal.
By far the best buff in the slate period. While people feel like the weakness to fighting is bad for it, most of the stuff that it would have been relevant to not be weak to would already have a way of forcing us out (lando intimidate, most fighting types did a lot of damage with CC. It is absolutely huge for it to be neutral against fairies, as it can now switch into clef and threaten it out. Great dragon dancer that has a ton of potential.
This thing has HORRENDOUSLY bad flavor but that is not my only issue with it. It is very frail and i generally don't see it running apple acid over the superior solar beam. Its okayish in terms of viability but I dislike it highly.
Edit: Actually thinking about it more clearly this sub is way worse than I thought. Fire/Grass may be a cool typing offensively, but it is horrendous in terms of defense. Its a fire type that doesn't check fire types nor ice types, it doesn't even resist bug types and therefore U-turn. Drought may help it against waters but it is also a grass type that doesn't switch into earthquake safely. This thing will have and incredibly bad time switching in.
Alright I will admit this looks decent enough as a Zarude check (unless it runs cc) and heatran counter, but then they switch out and what does guzz do about it? Nothing really, and outside of that role and some knock off spam this looks very passive as well. Also completely ruined by all kinds of status.
This one is pretty awkward. I dislike the removal of its bug typing but I guess it does help it get rid of stealth rock weakness? I get that it's an unaware pivot with some decent support options but it still looks horrifically passive. I guess it's still a better sticky web user than shuckle but that's it.
I highly dislike the Mons of this slate aside from Haxorus so I'm yet to get decided on the second Mon to vote.
Does losing stealth rock weakness help this Mon that much? I'm inclined to say no but but I will admit it could make for a decent future sighter, but nothing else since its offensive profile is still abysmal. By far the best buff in the slate period. While people feel like the weakness to fighting is bad for it, most of the stuff that it would have been relevant to not be weak to would already have a way of forcing us out (lando intimidate, most fighting types did a lot of damage with CC. It is absolutely huge for it to be neutral against fairies, as it can now switch into clef and threaten it out. Great dragon dancer that has a ton of potential. This thing has HORRENDOUSLY bad flavor but that is not my only issue with it. It is very frail and i generally don't see it running apple acid over the superior solar beam. Its okayish in terms of viability but I dislike it highly.Edit: Actually thinking about it more clearly this sub is way worse than I thought. Fire/Grass may be a cool typing offensively, but it is horrendous in terms of defense. Its a fire type that doesn't check fire types nor ice types, it doesn't even resist bug types and therefore U-turn. Drought may help it against waters but it is also a grass type that doesn't switch into earthquake safely. This thing will have and incredibly bad time switching in.
Alright I will admit this looks decent enough as a Zarude check (unless it runs cc) and heatran counter, but then they switch out and what does guzz do about it? Nothing really, and outside of that role and some knock off spam this looks very passive as well. Also completely ruined by all kinds of status. This one is pretty awkward. I dislike the removal of its bug typing but I guess it does help it get rid of stealth rock weakness? I get that it's an unaware pivot with some decent support options but it still looks horrifically passive. I guess it's still a better sticky web user than shuckle but that's it.I highly dislike the Mons of this slate aside from Haxorus so I'm yet to get decided on the second Mon to vote.
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Just found out about this thread, pretty cool concept 
hope it isn’t too late yet to join the discussion
Standard Haxorus has a niche in OU as an offensive dragon that can break through Unaware Clefable due to a setup move + Mold Breaker. The teams it fits in has partners that appreciate it breaking UnaClef: Screens HO has Hawlucha, while DragMag has Dragonite and Garchomp. However for it to be able to do this (i.e. guarantee the OHKO on UnaClef) it needs 2 things:
1) A Swords Dance boost
2) A Life Orbor Expert Belt lel
Hence, its set is usually telegraphed into something like this:
Which brings me to my first point:
1. Set Versatility
Gaining steel STAB means the aforementioned requirements are no longer necessary: A single boost in attack without a boosting item nor nature has a 75% to OHKO UnaClef with iron head (running Iron Tail bumps up these values significantly *wink wink*). Meaning it can possibly run multiple set variations aside from SD+LO and still do a solid job at dealing with UnaClef:
: Most different than setup standard haxorus, since CB outrage nukes non resists & fairies ain’t switching into potential STAB iron head. Gives more freedom to run coverage, notably first impression that revenges weavile.
DD+
: This allows it to run outrage and an easier time to setup from status (plus outrage confusion). One turn of setup to increase both attack and speed can also be nice.
(Either set still gets you walled by metal birds so be sure to pair it with broken zone)
2. Defensive Profile
Steel typing might not do it too much other than STAB since it’s still frail, which means it’s not the team’s dedicated steel-type (see: kartana). However, this gives Steel-Haxorus better insurance against different things, such as:
1. Not easily revenge-killed by weavile’s ice shard (you live 2 triple axels with reflect up)
2. Punish a choice-locked dragapult by surviving its -2 choice specs draco meteor and proceed to DD and outspeed the next turn (pretty significant since pult is known to shit on screens if no dark types)
3. Set up in front of fairies which cant OHKO with their fairy STABs (clef, fini, scarf lele)
4. Stealth rock resist is nice but not crumbling to Toxic Spikes, although rare, is huge. This means you don’t have to deal with the opponent constant switching to play the mind games while poison slowly whittles you down. Imagine having to predict between their Regen cores.
3. Team Archetypes
With all these positive trait it gets, I still believe Steel-Haxorus only fits on the same teams standard Haxorus fits in: Screens HO and DragMag. This is because comparing to other dragon types in the tier, it doesn’t provide anything else aside from offense. Dragapult provides pivot & speed control, Dragonite gives ground-immunity & checks kart, tran, volc, while Garchomp sets rocks, electric-immunity, & checks tran as well. Steel-Haxorus gives.. neutrality to Fairies? Having to use another Steel-type (not that there’s anything wrong with it) to cover its weakness opens up teambuilding headaches even more. I’d much rather run cores like Chomp + ferro, Dnite + tran, or Pult + melmetal.
Tl;dr: Set versatility & easier setup will give it a solid niche, but its viability is tied to DragMag and Screens HO since it will definitely be a mainstay in those archetypes (and those archetypes only).
Quick thoughts for other mons
: torkoal has better utility with spin & rocks, plus sun teams have venu anyway for the grass coverage
: food for weavile & kart
: /learn hydreigon, roost. Only reason to run this is to compress hydreigon’s role + knock off user ig?
: DemonMew that beats opposing DemonMew
hope it isn’t too late yet to join the discussion- Will talk about the mon(s)'s performance in current OU instead of the pet mod metagame itself (since I don’t know about the other buffed mons and how it might impact the metagame differently than OU).
- For the sake of consistency and transparency, the Unaware Clefable set mentioned is the standard Max/Max Bold with HDB.
Standard Haxorus has a niche in OU as an offensive dragon that can break through Unaware Clefable due to a setup move + Mold Breaker. The teams it fits in has partners that appreciate it breaking UnaClef: Screens HO has Hawlucha, while DragMag has Dragonite and Garchomp. However for it to be able to do this (i.e. guarantee the OHKO on UnaClef) it needs 2 things:
1) A Swords Dance boost
2) A Life Orb
Hence, its set is usually telegraphed into something like this:
Haxorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
1. Set Versatility
Gaining steel STAB means the aforementioned requirements are no longer necessary: A single boost in attack without a boosting item nor nature has a 75% to OHKO UnaClef with iron head (running Iron Tail bumps up these values significantly *wink wink*). Meaning it can possibly run multiple set variations aside from SD+LO and still do a solid job at dealing with UnaClef:
: Most different than setup standard haxorus, since CB outrage nukes non resists & fairies ain’t switching into potential STAB iron head. Gives more freedom to run coverage, notably first impression that revenges weavile.DD+
: This allows it to run outrage and an easier time to setup from status (plus outrage confusion). One turn of setup to increase both attack and speed can also be nice.(Either set still gets you walled by metal birds so be sure to pair it with broken zone)
2. Defensive Profile
Steel typing might not do it too much other than STAB since it’s still frail, which means it’s not the team’s dedicated steel-type (see: kartana). However, this gives Steel-Haxorus better insurance against different things, such as:
1. Not easily revenge-killed by weavile’s ice shard (you live 2 triple axels with reflect up)
2. Punish a choice-locked dragapult by surviving its -2 choice specs draco meteor and proceed to DD and outspeed the next turn (pretty significant since pult is known to shit on screens if no dark types)
3. Set up in front of fairies which cant OHKO with their fairy STABs (clef, fini, scarf lele)
4. Stealth rock resist is nice but not crumbling to Toxic Spikes, although rare, is huge. This means you don’t have to deal with the opponent constant switching to play the mind games while poison slowly whittles you down. Imagine having to predict between their Regen cores.
3. Team Archetypes
With all these positive trait it gets, I still believe Steel-Haxorus only fits on the same teams standard Haxorus fits in: Screens HO and DragMag. This is because comparing to other dragon types in the tier, it doesn’t provide anything else aside from offense. Dragapult provides pivot & speed control, Dragonite gives ground-immunity & checks kart, tran, volc, while Garchomp sets rocks, electric-immunity, & checks tran as well. Steel-Haxorus gives.. neutrality to Fairies? Having to use another Steel-type (not that there’s anything wrong with it) to cover its weakness opens up teambuilding headaches even more. I’d much rather run cores like Chomp + ferro, Dnite + tran, or Pult + melmetal.
Tl;dr: Set versatility & easier setup will give it a solid niche, but its viability is tied to DragMag and Screens HO since it will definitely be a mainstay in those archetypes (and those archetypes only).
Quick thoughts for other mons
: torkoal has better utility with spin & rocks, plus sun teams have venu anyway for the grass coverage: food for weavile & kart: /learn hydreigon, roost. Only reason to run this is to compress hydreigon’s role + knock off user ig?: DemonMew that beats opposing DemonMew
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Guzzlord: 244-288 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 254-300 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
ONe thing i notice is that people are comparing guzzlord to hydreigon to much... its like comparing ferro and kart as guzzlord is more of utility and defensive pokemon while hydreigon is an offensive poke as even with max hp EV's guzzlord is still much more bulkier than even max max +sp. def hydreigon which takes more than guzzlord showing that guzzlord is capable of taking hits and annoying with toxic, knock and dragon tail which hydreigon either has no access to or poorly utlizes them. Yeah hydreigon has roost but its potential as a wall is shit compared to guzzlord as guzzlord tanks even SE much better than standard hydreigon
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 254-300 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
ONe thing i notice is that people are comparing guzzlord to hydreigon to much... its like comparing ferro and kart as guzzlord is more of utility and defensive pokemon while hydreigon is an offensive poke as even with max hp EV's guzzlord is still much more bulkier than even max max +sp. def hydreigon which takes more than guzzlord showing that guzzlord is capable of taking hits and annoying with toxic, knock and dragon tail which hydreigon either has no access to or poorly utlizes them. Yeah hydreigon has roost but its potential as a wall is shit compared to guzzlord as guzzlord tanks even SE much better than standard hydreigon
can my second vote be blank?
and 
hey guess who wanted to post the one hour warning but had their ass dragged to family outings
Anyway here is the tally!
haxorus: 13
guzzlord: 8
garticuno: 4
orbeetle: 1
Dragon/Steel Haxorus and Slack Off Guzzlord are entering the mod!
I'd also like to announce that we will not be posting Slate 7 until after the tournament, which has 24 hours left for signups ^^;
Anyway here is the tally!
haxorus: 13
guzzlord: 8
garticuno: 4
orbeetle: 1
Dragon/Steel Haxorus and Slack Off Guzzlord are entering the mod!
I'd also like to announce that we will not be posting Slate 7 until after the tournament, which has 24 hours left for signups ^^;
We are trialling a new format for submissions now (this does not replace conventional submissions.) We plan to look for problems or missing roles within the meta and invite you to submit solutions to them, then we will hold a vote to decide which one to implement.
The first thing we want to do is provide a new hazard removal option to better deal with Raikou and Ferrothorn. As a reminder, Raikou now has Competitive. The hazard remover can use either Defog or Rapid Spin, and it can either be a new user of one of the moves, or an existing one with other changes to more effectively remove hazards against these Pokemon. The usual rule about a Pokemon needing to be C+ rank or below applies. A vote will be held after the current tournament ends.
I've put all the current submissions for this we've received in the box below, so you can see what other people have come up with:
+Rapid Spin
Grass/Fighting typing, +Jungle Healing, +Close Combat
+Recover
The first thing we want to do is provide a new hazard removal option to better deal with Raikou and Ferrothorn. As a reminder, Raikou now has Competitive. The hazard remover can use either Defog or Rapid Spin, and it can either be a new user of one of the moves, or an existing one with other changes to more effectively remove hazards against these Pokemon. The usual rule about a Pokemon needing to be C+ rank or below applies. A vote will be held after the current tournament ends.
I've put all the current submissions for this we've received in the box below, so you can see what other people have come up with:
+Rapid Spin Grass/Fighting typing, +Jungle Healing, +Close Combat +Recover
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Viability Rankings have been made! Again, these are subject to change and will be revised after every slate. If you would like to take part in the discussion, please head over to our Discord!
Id just like to go over what has changed here from vanilla OU:
to A: Raikou is fucking fantastic in this meta. It beats all the common defoggers + the most common spinner in Starmie, so it heavily discourages hazard removal just by being on a team. Its very good on spike stacking teams, and matches up well against some of the newly buffed pokemon (it cant switch into Rude, but can threaten it with Aura Sphere, it can threaten out goli, it has a 40% change to OHKO mudsy with scald after a competitive boost). Its naturally very fast and not very easy to threaten offensively. However, it doesnt hit very hard without a boost, and its lack of recovery means getting worn down is a big problem. Its still fast enough to be a threat at low HP, but the best use of raikou is alongside Zarude, discouraging one of its best counters, Mandi, from coming in and doing its thing.
to A: This is pretty obvious to anyone who's played the tier, Tough Claws Zarude is VERY good. This thing punishes free turns like nothing else, and necessitates a dark resistance on every team. Its also deceptively versatile, with Scarf, Band, and BU sets in grassy terrain all seeing use. With the nerf, its lost a little bit of its breaking power (eg, it cant OHKO a +1 Mudsdale with Power Whip anymore) but its still a very good wallbreaker, and your team will most certainly always be good with this on it. Its not a necessity by any stretch of the imagination, and its VERY vulnerable to Status and being knocked, but its a very very good breaker and makes physical offence immensely powerful.
to A-: Buzzwole is one of two mons that got MUCH better in a meta where Zarude rules. It is by far the most consistent counter to Zarude, resisting every move the band and scarf variants run, and only fearing the very rare Grassy Seed Acrobatics Variant, which is pretty telegraphed and easy to play around. Its not a bad mon outside of Zarude either, being strong and able to spread Toxic. Rocky Helmet physdef is the most common variant, but I've played around with adamant max hp max atk and it does its job at countering Zarude while still being able to apply a lot more offensive pressure, and overall is just a really good mon in the current meta. Also fucks up Goli pretty well.
to A-: Goli is a mon that surprised me with how good it was. The Sp.def boost is very noticeable, and its ability to be an offensive answer to Zarude is very fun. First Impression in general is very powerful, putting pressure on the opponent to not their mons HP drop too low lest they be picked off. Its also in theory a good offensive check to Obstagoon, but then Goon uses Obstruct on the first turn and the Goli has to switch out in fear. Its by far the best spiker in the tier (RIP Thundy), and can force progress with Knock. Overall, a very interesting addition to the meta that I personally didnt like at first, but has really grown on me with its offensive utility.
to B+: Mudsy is a little hard to fit on a team (hence why its in B instead of A) but reliable recovery really makes Stamina shine. Its one of the best rockers, and a good check to the Goon, lando, Volt-turn, and all sorts of crazy stuff. Physical Offence is by far the best playstyle in this meta, which is very good for Mudsy, as all it needs is one turn to go its way in order to snowball. Plays exactly how you'd expect, solid mon, very fun to use.
to B+: This is a nom I really dont agree with, but I can see the appeal. Thundy is very good on rain offence, and is similar to Raikou in that it preys on Mandi, with the added bonus of also matching up decently VS buzzwole. My main problem with Thundy is that it really finds it hard to find free turns to Spike. Outside of rain, it also struggles pretty hard VS grounds, and gets fucked over by Zarude, which outspeeds. Its not a bad mon by any stretch of the imagination, though, it hits like a truck and is a good Zarude partner, it just feels a little outclassed by Raikou is all.
to B: 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 181-214 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
gg
Jokes aside, corv really struggles in this meta. Zarude and Raikou being top tier threats really hampers it, and its a defogger that practically gives away free turns to Raikou, so it doesnt really see much use. It doesnt match up super well VS the other additions either, and just feels like a bit of a momentum sap. Not a great mon here. Use Mandi instead.
to B: Mandi is a great, great, great mon. Its the best defogger in the tier, given that it finds free turns all the time on the Zarude based Physical Offence teams that run rampant. Its not as reliable a Zarude check as Buzzwole, given that CC still does a decent amount to it, but resisting both its STABs means that whenever Zarude comes in, it has to make a decision between hitting Mandi or hitting everything else on the team, and that sort of prediction madness usually ends up with Mandi on top. Its also great vs Buzzwole, and has utility in being a Zarude check in that its immune to Future Sight, which is a huge problem for teams that rely on Buzzwole as their Rude counter. Its just generally very good, and I find it very hard to build a team without putting Mandi on there somewhere, as even though its not as offensively potent as Buzz, the utility it provides usually ends up serving me better than the Buzz. Very good mon.
to B: Starmie is fun as fuck. It hits really hard, spins, recovers and comes back later to do the same thing all over again. It has suffered a bit with the rise of Raikou, but its still very good at what it does, and is especially good on Rain. Definitely run this if you're running hazard spam, as its really the best viable spinner in this meta.
Id just like to go over what has changed here from vanilla OU:
to A: Raikou is fucking fantastic in this meta. It beats all the common defoggers + the most common spinner in Starmie, so it heavily discourages hazard removal just by being on a team. Its very good on spike stacking teams, and matches up well against some of the newly buffed pokemon (it cant switch into Rude, but can threaten it with Aura Sphere, it can threaten out goli, it has a 40% change to OHKO mudsy with scald after a competitive boost). Its naturally very fast and not very easy to threaten offensively. However, it doesnt hit very hard without a boost, and its lack of recovery means getting worn down is a big problem. Its still fast enough to be a threat at low HP, but the best use of raikou is alongside Zarude, discouraging one of its best counters, Mandi, from coming in and doing its thing. to A: This is pretty obvious to anyone who's played the tier, Tough Claws Zarude is VERY good. This thing punishes free turns like nothing else, and necessitates a dark resistance on every team. Its also deceptively versatile, with Scarf, Band, and BU sets in grassy terrain all seeing use. With the nerf, its lost a little bit of its breaking power (eg, it cant OHKO a +1 Mudsdale with Power Whip anymore) but its still a very good wallbreaker, and your team will most certainly always be good with this on it. Its not a necessity by any stretch of the imagination, and its VERY vulnerable to Status and being knocked, but its a very very good breaker and makes physical offence immensely powerful. to A-: Buzzwole is one of two mons that got MUCH better in a meta where Zarude rules. It is by far the most consistent counter to Zarude, resisting every move the band and scarf variants run, and only fearing the very rare Grassy Seed Acrobatics Variant, which is pretty telegraphed and easy to play around. Its not a bad mon outside of Zarude either, being strong and able to spread Toxic. Rocky Helmet physdef is the most common variant, but I've played around with adamant max hp max atk and it does its job at countering Zarude while still being able to apply a lot more offensive pressure, and overall is just a really good mon in the current meta. Also fucks up Goli pretty well. to A-: Goli is a mon that surprised me with how good it was. The Sp.def boost is very noticeable, and its ability to be an offensive answer to Zarude is very fun. First Impression in general is very powerful, putting pressure on the opponent to not their mons HP drop too low lest they be picked off. Its also in theory a good offensive check to Obstagoon, but then Goon uses Obstruct on the first turn and the Goli has to switch out in fear. Its by far the best spiker in the tier (RIP Thundy), and can force progress with Knock. Overall, a very interesting addition to the meta that I personally didnt like at first, but has really grown on me with its offensive utility. to B+: Mudsy is a little hard to fit on a team (hence why its in B instead of A) but reliable recovery really makes Stamina shine. Its one of the best rockers, and a good check to the Goon, lando, Volt-turn, and all sorts of crazy stuff. Physical Offence is by far the best playstyle in this meta, which is very good for Mudsy, as all it needs is one turn to go its way in order to snowball. Plays exactly how you'd expect, solid mon, very fun to use. to B+: This is a nom I really dont agree with, but I can see the appeal. Thundy is very good on rain offence, and is similar to Raikou in that it preys on Mandi, with the added bonus of also matching up decently VS buzzwole. My main problem with Thundy is that it really finds it hard to find free turns to Spike. Outside of rain, it also struggles pretty hard VS grounds, and gets fucked over by Zarude, which outspeeds. Its not a bad mon by any stretch of the imagination, though, it hits like a truck and is a good Zarude partner, it just feels a little outclassed by Raikou is all. to B: 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 181-214 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recoverygg
Jokes aside, corv really struggles in this meta. Zarude and Raikou being top tier threats really hampers it, and its a defogger that practically gives away free turns to Raikou, so it doesnt really see much use. It doesnt match up super well VS the other additions either, and just feels like a bit of a momentum sap. Not a great mon here. Use Mandi instead.
to B: Mandi is a great, great, great mon. Its the best defogger in the tier, given that it finds free turns all the time on the Zarude based Physical Offence teams that run rampant. Its not as reliable a Zarude check as Buzzwole, given that CC still does a decent amount to it, but resisting both its STABs means that whenever Zarude comes in, it has to make a decision between hitting Mandi or hitting everything else on the team, and that sort of prediction madness usually ends up with Mandi on top. Its also great vs Buzzwole, and has utility in being a Zarude check in that its immune to Future Sight, which is a huge problem for teams that rely on Buzzwole as their Rude counter. Its just generally very good, and I find it very hard to build a team without putting Mandi on there somewhere, as even though its not as offensively potent as Buzz, the utility it provides usually ends up serving me better than the Buzz. Very good mon. to B: Starmie is fun as fuck. It hits really hard, spins, recovers and comes back later to do the same thing all over again. It has suffered a bit with the rise of Raikou, but its still very good at what it does, and is especially good on Rain. Definitely run this if you're running hazard spam, as its really the best viable spinner in this meta.Alright its time for a new slate. The tournament is still ongoing, but its taking a bit longer than expected.
Dragon/Fairy + Moonblast
+Defiant
Bug/Ground
+ Slack Off + Early Bird (replaces Gluttony)
+ Calm Mind
special mention to Seismitoad who was gonna be on this slate but got bumped up to B like 2 days ago
So, as always, there will be around 5 days of discussion. What do you think of this slate? Let us know!
Dragon/Fairy + Moonblast +Defiant Bug/Ground + Slack Off + Early Bird (replaces Gluttony) + Calm MindSo, as always, there will be around 5 days of discussion. What do you think of this slate? Let us know!
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