Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Pre-DLC]

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Clefable is so good that has anyone given thought to Eviolite Clefairy? I'm not saying to use it in place of Clefable, but to use it in addition to. I think people have become so accustomed to Wish/Teleport Clef that LO variants can catch people off-guard and obliterate some teams, while Clefairy still provides Wish support. Hell, you could run both as Wish/Teleport and just have a team that never dies.
To an extent, I get what you're saying here. However, the detriments of stacking two pure fairy types in a meta filled with things geared to killing Fairy types outweighs any potential benefits. Not to mention, Sylveon is right there as an option, only missing out on Teleport. That being said if Clef is ever banned I could potentially see Clefairy rising as a contender to take up some of the slack left by its absence (it takes special hits even better than its evolved counterpart). Which sounds stupid, and it is, but that's Pokemon. Something will always rise to fill a power vacuum (or usage vacuum if you will). For now however, it is very hard to justify using Clefairy at all.

Will write up thoughts on slate and state of placements in VR when I'm not supposed to be working later.

Also, side note. "If someone can tell me how to make my avatar a gif it would be appreciated!". Go here and click your current avatar, then just upload your gif of choice from your computer.
 
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from A+ to A

This is an extremely controversial nomination, to be sure, and I can honestly see this thing going either way. Special Dragapult sets really don't appreciate how good Clefable is right now, and Clef has nowhere to go but up to boot. That said, the Dragon Dance sets that run Steel Wing can actually pressure it quite heavily, which is why I'm on the fence regarding Dragapult. Is the DD set enough to justify it remaining in A+, though?
I think Dragapult is pretty fine where it is. It's sets are all varied to a point of having to make a guess between a lot of different sets, all of which have slightly different counters. Clef is effective enough for most, but if it comes in on a DD, you might have just lost it. Specs loves to beat common Sub mons, and Scarf is just a perfect sweep stopper. Even if it can't run all these at once, it at least forces a guess out of the opponent, and once it's scouted it likely doesn't matter because it's already caused problems. I guess a nom to A is reasonable but I disagree personally.
 
To an extent, I get what you're saying here. However, the detriments of stacking two pure fairy types in a meta filled with things geared to killing Fairy types outweighs any potential benefits. Not to mention, Sylveon is right there as an option, only missing out on Teleport. That being said if Clef is ever banned I could potentially see Clefairy rising as a contender to take up some of the slack left by its absence (it takes special hits even better than its evolved counterpart). Which sounds stupid, and it is, but that's Pokemon. Something will always rise to fill a power vacuum (or usage vacuum if you will). For now however, it is very hard to justify using Clefairy at all.

Will write up thoughts on slate and state of placements in VR when I'm not supposed to be working later.

Also, side note. "If someone can tell me how to make my avatar a gif it would be appreciated!". Go here and click your current avatar, then just upload your gif of choice from your computer.
I feel you on the point about stacking two pure fairies, but in gregards to Sylveon I think Clefairy still would deserve some consideration over it since it's Wish+Teleport+Magic Guard that really makes Clefable broken and that's something Clefairy has over Sylveon as well. I'm not going to outright call it better in a vacuum, but if you're using LO Clefable and want a wish passer I think it's worth asking which of the two one should use.
 
C+ ---> B- / B
Mew has so many good sets such as suicide lead, cosmic power, and even the transform/block/imprison set on stall teams (I once got beat by a random dragon dance weakness policy set too) that I just don't think it fits in with more niche things like Sylveon and Diggersby because Mew is often the best at what it does in addition to being versatile and unpredictable. I've often used it as a suicide lead for hyper offense because it has a movepool (stealth rock, spikes, taunt, explosion, flare blitz, tailwind), sits at a good speed tier, and has the bulk to forego focus sash in favor of mental herb to beat terrakion/grimmsnarl leads (red card is also an option). I can't speak as much for the other sets as I haven't used them myself, but from what I've seen I just don't think Mew belongs with the stuff in C+, a subrank below Xatu, and two whole sub ranks below Tyranitar.
I'd go further and nominate Mew to B+. I think I nominated a while ago back when Home first brought over the new stuff including what I consider to be a significant buff to Mew with recovery moves. Yet in both updates to the rankings since, it hasn't moved places and hasn't really been discussed despite numerous other nominations for it.

I think part of Mew's current ranking is due to past gen biases that Cloyster similarly faced earlier, where it's seen as too gimmicky or inconsistent because that's how it was last gen when there were better mons to counter it. But in the current metagame, Mew's 100 across the board stats plus giga movepool is very good.

Usage isn't the best stat to bring up because it can be misleading in some cases but I think it's relevant to point out that the top 19 in usage are all A- or above (with Bisharp being the only A- which I think is wrong anyway) then 20th is Cinderace who is a starter, fun to play with, still B rank and some people have been nomming for B+ as well, and then 22 is Mew, who went up 2% in usage. The only comparable mons who are used much more than their current rank are Pelipper and Alolan Ninetales which are required for certain playstyles.

Mew is incredibly splashable as a custom fit to round out teams while simultaneously having sets that function well in many teams. Milkyway above has already pointed out some of them, I'd like to point out this set I've been running continuously at the top of the ladder basically since it came out.

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Soft-Boiled
- Aura Sphere

Yes it's similar to Cosmic Power, I argue that it's better than Cosmic Power. The ability to OHKO most mons at +2 with stored power and 2HKO walls is really good.

This is Cosmic Power
4 SpA Mew Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 136-162 (42.9 - 51.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
Vs Calm Mind
+2 +2 4 SpA Mew Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 271-321 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Above that just speaks more to CM
4 SpA Mew Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 192-226 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 4 SpA Mew Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 475-561 (149.8 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

People running cosmic power so they can epicly stay in on Dracovish in the rain need to wake up a bit.

This set with some support (I think cleric support is most important, screens is good too) is super strong and could be improved possibly with better support I haven't thought of because I don't play balance teams much. It still outspeeds all walls, survives stupid things like life orb Bisharp Knock Off, outstalls Mandibuzz without Toxic or Taunt, kills Unawares through Stored Power, can eat Timid Specs Drag Shadow Ball at +2 so if you don't get the drop (you still have a chance after recovering) you beat it, etc.

There are so many sets that aren't even being attempted like choice scarf trick, ice beam/nasty plot/sub/roost, double dance NP/agility/stored power/aura sphere, iron defense/body press/roost/stealth rock, etc.

The arguments against Mew are often "jack-of-all-trades master of none" but it basically is the master at some of these sets as far as I can tell, I think it can do the same thing Necrozma does but better due to speed generally. And there isn't a single pokemon in the entire game that can come in on it 100% safely. Every time you make a play into Mandibuzz you gotta hope it's not Nasty Plot ice beam, every time you go into Hippowdon you gotta hope it doesn't have taunt/ isn't nasty plot ice beam lol. Every time you go into specs Dragapult you gotta hope it's not DD play rough. Or outright gonna play rough, or thunder wave, or w/e.

You get the point, I just don't see how it is worse than honestly any of the mons in B+ or below.
 
Sorry Jordy, won't happen again.

My main point essentially is that I don't think Clefairy is particularly viable atm. Clefable exists, and there are other wishers, which can serve as team options with Clefable better due to not stacking Fairy.

As Jaajgko points out, Jirachi is the most solid wish option if you want to use Clefable for other things than WishPort. If you want role compression you can run Vaporeon for a water immunity. If you hate winning want to bounce back status, you can run Xatu. Fairy is a good typing. With the varied threats to it in the meta, however, I don't see it being a good idea to run two pure fairies period. Clefairy has less HP for wishes, less sp atk which makes it even worse against HO, and isn't able to carry leftovers, which is huge in the long run.

I am spending way too much time arguing about Clefairy.
 

Estronic

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The problem with Clefairy is while it is rather bulky with Eviolite, the fact that you're forgoing Leftovers is a pretty big loss, considering Leftovers recovery can be the determine whether you get KOed or not. You'll also be spending more time having to heal yourself with Wish, which can easily be taken advantage of, not to mention the chance of your Eviolite being Knocked Off.

Talking about Clefable for a second, one of factors that makes it so good that I've seen go under the radar most of the time is how useful Moonblast can be when picking up KOs. Of course, against Pokemon like Hydreigon, it doesn't really matter with Clefable versus Clefairy, but the obvious fact that Clefairy has a weaker Moonblast can mean that it won't be able to retaliate after being hit as effectively, which can be a huge factor at confirming the win late-game. Here's one example:

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 216-254 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 150-176 (38.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This could definitely be an end-game situation, and the Clefairy weaker power puts Clefable on top. You can argue that Kyurem still only 3HKOes both, but again, Clefable can utilize a combination of Leftovers and Protect to potential get it out of KO range, while Clefairy needs to put itself out in the open to attacks when using Wish, it's only form of recovery.

Even if Clefairy ends up being good enough for a rank, I can't see it going past C-. Clefable is literally just the better option because you miss out on a lot choosing to run a different set other than Wish + Teleport, considering that it's rather flexible to put on a team. I guess Clefairy could have a niche if you really want to run Calm Mind Clefable or something, but I just feel like it's really awkward having two similar Pokemon on the same team, granting any Pokemon that already can face Clefable so much room to pressure both of them and the rest of your team.
 
Conkeldurr A+ --> S-/S


How is this thing in A+ tier? Conkeldurr one of those rare Pokemon that doesn't need any of the choice items or Setup, and It still is a huge threat, Guts Will just make it stronger and Paralysis, Toxic, Freeze, and sleep can't threaten it, But you might say "Just use Clefable" but if Conkeldurr has Poison Jab and it's burned, It's very likely that Conkeldurr Will Survive Its Moonblast and Revenge kill, there are also three other moves that literally define Conkeldurr, Mach Punch, Which can Destroy Offensive Setup, Drain Punch, Getting healed from Damage is gonna be super annoying, and Knock Off, If a ghost type Switches in, and Conkeldurr picks this move, the Ghost type will most likely die, and It Removes any Item, If Conkeldurr Destorys Clefable on a Hyper Offense Team, the odds of you winning got from Neutral To Unfavorable, and on the Contrary Side, Clefable Is one of the best teammates for Conkeldurr, since being able to switch in safely and Keeping Hyper Offense Teams Healthy is Extremely Helpful, the only Real Counters is Hippowdon, and Hawlucha, But running Hawlucha Is a bit Too Situational to be good, and Hippowdown Is weak to lots of Special Moves
Conkeldurr is one of those few pokemon that you better prepare for, Otherwise, It'll Destroy your team
 
Does Conk run either Drain Punch or Poison Jab? Facade is just barely weaker than Poison Jab against Fairies with way better neutral coverage and power, and Conk relies on Close Combat's damage output to reliably threaten walls.
 
I dont think ive seen anyone run poison jab on conk, due to facades better coverage and if one did opt for poison jab over facade one would have to make more predictions in case corvi and a ghost on the other team. While it is a really good pokemon in this meta, i dont think it deserves a place in the S-tier since you need to keep predicting your opponent until their ghosts are gone.
 
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you're trying to argue Facades better coverage but Using Facade Instead of Poison Jab on a Clefable (on full health) goes from a 93.8% chance to kill to 12.5% chance to kill, also It loses any Super Effective Properties that Poison Jab would of easily Obtained, also it doesn't work Well until it gets Burned, Because how the hell are you gonna kill anything with a 70 base power type-less move without any Burns or Choice band? Sure, Conkeldurr does have a high atk, but if it loses its Flame Orb and isn't burned, (Which is likely, Given the Knock Off Infested Meta) Facade is gonna turn into the worst move in your four move slots
 
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Jordy

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Facade is the best option to hit Clefable that doesn't leave you completely walled by Toxapex. This is not the thread to discuss moveset semantics, so let's move on from that. I'll infract any posts that discuss it from here on out.
 
Hydreigon- stay in A+


y’all out here saying hydreigon should drop, but I disagree. here are a few reasons

1) hydreigon has almost no common defensive checks, and no defensive counters after a nasty plot. with sylveon kind of falling out of popularity and most clefables being magic guard, np +3 attacks hydreigon has no common defensive checks. here are some calcs
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 395-465 (129.9 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 341-403 (86.5 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 265-315 (67.2 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 564-665 (141 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
hydreigon’s ability to easily come in on some of the most powerful defensive pokemon like toxapex and ferrothorn, or choice locked offensive pokemon easily and nasty plot make it the most powerful wallbreaker in the tier. if all of its faster checks like dragapult/zeraora are dead, there is no stopping hydreigon from absolutely dumpstering weakened teams.

2) hydreigon has amazing versatility. hydreigon has been known for a while to have amazing versatility. it can run many sets in OU and they’re all very good. nasty plot +3 attacks, scarf, specs, take your pick. this makes hydreigon very unpredictable. plan to switch in dragapult/zeraora for an easy revenge kill? they’ll just get killed by draco meteor/dark pulse if hydreigon has the choice scarf set.

these are just a few reasons as to why hydreigon should stay in a+. thanks for reading!
 
Cinderace from B to B- or C+

Although Cinderace has decent offensive utility as a physically attacking fire type that can pressure most of the defensive threats in the meta right now like Clefable, Corviknight, and Ferrothorn, it doesn't really have a place in this OU meta where almost every team has an extremely solid fire/water resist. Cinderace usually ends up being forced to click U-turn the whole game until it is inevitably sacked. Cinderace is only really effective versus offensive teams, which aren't really relevant in this meta.
Even its main gimmick, Court Change, is fairly useless versus most balance and semistall, as removing hazards and setting them back up usually isn't too hard. The only real place where Cinderace shines is in a matchup vs HO, where it can pivot in or lead to apply constant pressure due to the threat of Court Change making all of their hazards or screens useless, although there are some HO staples such as Gyarados and Keldeo that can setup on Cinderace easily. One other Cinderace set that has been rising in usage is Choice Band. Although this gives it some more firepower, it doesn't help much because of the same extremely common fire and water resists such as Toxapex and Seismitoad.

Cinderace's ideal position on a team is on some sort of Volt-Turn offense, where it can pivot around easily and not have to worry about being hard walled by these fire resists. Unfortunately, these type of teams aren't really relevant at the moment in this balance-heavy meta, and neither is Cinderace.
 
Sorry, while I'm not here to debate Clefable in S+, I will say that I think that it's getting overblown right now. To me
Cinderace from B to B- or C+

Although Cinderace has decent offensive utility as a physically attacking fire type that can pressure most of the defensive threats in the meta right now like Clefable, Corviknight, and Ferrothorn, it doesn't really have a place in this OU meta where almost every team has an extremely solid fire/water resist. Cinderace usually ends up being forced to click U-turn the whole game until it is inevitably sacked. Cinderace is only really effective versus offensive teams, which aren't really relevant in this meta.
Even its main gimmick, Court Change, is fairly useless versus most balance and semistall, as removing hazards and setting them back up usually isn't too hard. The only real place where Cinderace shines is in a matchup vs HO, where it can pivot in or lead to apply constant pressure due to the threat of Court Change making all of their hazards or screens useless, although there are some HO staples such as Gyarados and Keldeo that can setup on Cinderace easily. One other Cinderace set that has been rising in usage is Choice Band. Although this gives it some more firepower, it doesn't help much because of the same extremely common fire and water resists such as Toxapex and Seismitoad.

Cinderace's ideal position on a team is on some sort of Volt-Turn offense, where it can pivot around easily and not have to worry about being hard walled by these fire resists. Unfortunately, these type of teams aren't really relevant at the moment in this balance-heavy meta, and neither is Cinderace.
This thing really needs its hidden ability, or swords dance. Badly.

I have personally found a ton of success with a bulkup + 3 attacks (Pyro/Sucker/Zen) which sweeps very well late game, but it requires a lot of team support. Early game you really wish you had U-Turn.

Not sure about downgrading but agree you want more out of this thing.

I also strongly agree with Hydreigon staying at A+. That thing is a monster to deal with.
 
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Cinderace from B to B- or C+

Although Cinderace has decent offensive utility as a physically attacking fire type that can pressure most of the defensive threats in the meta right now like Clefable, Corviknight, and Ferrothorn, it doesn't really have a place in this OU meta where almost every team has an extremely solid fire/water resist. Cinderace usually ends up being forced to click U-turn the whole game until it is inevitably sacked. Cinderace is only really effective versus offensive teams, which aren't really relevant in this meta.
Even its main gimmick, Court Change, is fairly useless versus most balance and semistall, as removing hazards and setting them back up usually isn't too hard. The only real place where Cinderace shines is in a matchup vs HO, where it can pivot in or lead to apply constant pressure due to the threat of Court Change making all of their hazards or screens useless, although there are some HO staples such as Gyarados and Keldeo that can setup on Cinderace easily. One other Cinderace set that has been rising in usage is Choice Band. Although this gives it some more firepower, it doesn't help much because of the same extremely common fire and water resists such as Toxapex and Seismitoad.

Cinderace's ideal position on a team is on some sort of Volt-Turn offense, where it can pivot around easily and not have to worry about being hard walled by these fire resists. Unfortunately, these type of teams aren't really relevant at the moment in this balance-heavy meta, and neither is Cinderace.

ya.... no. as a person who actually has had mad success with the bunny, your analysis of it is pretty wrong; but to fair to you, it's inline with most opf the groupthink bullshit that perpetuates on this site so I don't hold you at fault. Bunny is a pretty cool pokemon. It can have a wide variety of sets and can be as wall breaking or fast hard hitting as you want it to be, and has a good amount of moves for power, setup and utility. The main issue I see with it is people not being guided on sets and just not understanding it.

For starters, you people REALLY need to stop committing suicide just to get a goddamn court change off, like for what reason do a good portion of cinderace players do that what is wrong with you. also, heavy boots court change cinderace is worthy of C+ imo, but that's the thing; it's a bad set, one of it's worse, and it's super unfair to characterize it like. It does not need to be on volt switch /uturn squads and it doesnt need to conform to that playstyle. You have multiple high powered hard hitting moves; use those moves. One set that was team specific that I loved was adamant max attack/speed with pyro ball, high jump kick, taunt, and sucker punch, it was truly incredible and the best mon on the team, i dont understand the need make it conform to this communities wants to put it in a small box but like why. it's a lot bulker and stronger than people give I credit for, and as ive stated earlier has a lot of moves that it can use to make sure that It dods the best that it can. ive even used taunt uturn and that shit was fire.

p.s. - it's not that court change is a bad move, it is a really great move. it's how you all have been using it that is strange as hell, you dont need to court change at all times or have bunny be your hazard remover like just calm down.
 
Cinderace from B to B- or C+

Although Cinderace has decent offensive utility as a physically attacking fire type that can pressure most of the defensive threats in the meta right now like Clefable, Corviknight, and Ferrothorn, it doesn't really have a place in this OU meta where almost every team has an extremely solid fire/water resist. Cinderace usually ends up being forced to click U-turn the whole game until it is inevitably sacked. Cinderace is only really effective versus offensive teams, which aren't really relevant in this meta.
Even its main gimmick, Court Change, is fairly useless versus most balance and semistall, as removing hazards and setting them back up usually isn't too hard. The only real place where Cinderace shines is in a matchup vs HO, where it can pivot in or lead to apply constant pressure due to the threat of Court Change making all of their hazards or screens useless, although there are some HO staples such as Gyarados and Keldeo that can setup on Cinderace easily. One other Cinderace set that has been rising in usage is Choice Band. Although this gives it some more firepower, it doesn't help much because of the same extremely common fire and water resists such as Toxapex and Seismitoad.

Cinderace's ideal position on a team is on some sort of Volt-Turn offense, where it can pivot around easily and not have to worry about being hard walled by these fire resists. Unfortunately, these type of teams aren't really relevant at the moment in this balance-heavy meta, and neither is Cinderace.
Why did you mention Extremely Solid Water Resists when Cinderace Doesn't Learn any Water Typed Moves to begin with?
 
:ss/stunfisk: to C

You're probably wondering why I'm nomming Stunfisk to be ranked in OU. In fact, you're probably wondering why I used it to begin with. Well, as all of my spicy meme teams start, I pick a few fun looking mons out of a random pokemon generator and build a team around them. Stunfisk ended up putting in some work. Why?

1. Stealth Rock user that beats Defog users

Stunfisk beats Corviknight with Discharge spam and can threaten Mandibuzz and Rotom variants, the latter on the switch-in, with Toxic. It lacks the raw strength necessary to reliably beat Corviknight on paper, but the yellow color means Corviknight usually loses in practice. At the very least it can cripple everything with status effects. This brings us to reason number 2.

2. Paralysis spam

As many ladder and tour players are aware, paralysis has always been bullshit relevant in battle. The current meta has few real answers to Thunder Wave spam, and Discharge functions similarly. It's fantastic for punishing the likes of Clefable, Hydreigon, and Dragapult, which could. otherwise come in on Stunfisk relatively easily. In addition, Static is annoying as hell. Any physical attacker runs the risk of being paralyzed. I've even made use of this by keeping Stunfisk as death fodder, dying to a physical attacker only to paralyze them in return. Incredibly skilled mechanic.

3. Solid Zeraora check

Not too much to say here. Zeraora can't do much to Stunfisk, and Stunfisk KOs with Earth Power in return. Grass Knot doesn't do much since Stunfisk doesn't weigh much, and Knock Off isn't a big deal either.

To summarize, Stunfisk's niche comes from its ability to beat common Defog users, spam paralysis, and check all sets of Zeraora, which other rockers, such as Hippowdon, Kommo-o, and Ferrothorn, cannot do as well or at all.


Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1077045780
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1077626891
But like, why stunfisk? Just because it can beat corv 1v1 w/ para hax doesn't really mean anything when corv can just switch to seismatoad or any other ground type when its sure the discharge and not the rocks are coming.

It also walls nothing, besides perhaps zera, which admittedly after running the calcs it does very well. But you straight up lie in your post, earth power is a 2hko on zera, which isnt good since once fisk is knocked it cant regain hp.

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zeraora: 218-260 (68.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO .

Honestly, I can't think of a single team that would not rather have toad. Obv fisk is a meme pick but C tier has some pokes perhaps worth bringing, like ludicolo with rain or ninetales alola for screens. Sure C teir is for gimmicks, but stunfisk isn't a gimmick... its bad.

Just my thoughts, and your post is well written, but just for the sake of keeping the VR filled only with pokes worth using, I would keep this thing unranked.
 
But like, why stunfisk? Just because it can beat corv 1v1 w/ para hax doesn't really mean anything when corv can just switch to seismatoad or any other ground type when its sure the discharge and not the rocks are coming.

It also walls nothing, besides perhaps zera, which admittedly after running the calcs it does very well. But you straight up lie in your post, earth power is a 2hko on zera, which isnt good since once fisk is knocked it cant regain hp.

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zeraora: 218-260 (68.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO .

Honestly, I can't think of a single team that would not rather have toad. Obv fisk is a meme pick but C tier has some pokes perhaps worth bringing, like ludicolo with rain or ninetales alola for screens. Sure C teir is for gimmicks, but stunfisk isn't a gimmick... its bad.

Just my thoughts, and your post is well written, but just for the sake of keeping the VR filled only with pokes worth using, I would keep this thing unranked.
By that logic, Conkeldurr is bad just because if It's Preparing to Drain Punch on a Bisharp, and said Bisharp switches into a Ghost, It negates all damage. For real though, that situation you described is Unlikely to happen, because Stunfisk can use Earth Powder, Set up SR, or better yet, switch out

Sure, he might of lied, but you lied as well, TWICE, First you claimed that "Stunfisk can't wall anything aside Zera" yet stunfisk in the footage clearly walled More than Zera, And Second, It CAN get health back even after It lost Its Leftovers, Source: Wish Teleport Clefable. AND that doesn't even cover the fact that he might have NOT lied. How many EVs are in sp.atk? what the Nature? and is SR set up? you literally set the Bare Minimum for Stunfisk's Sp.atk

Also that ending to your post is a bombshell, The only reason why the Pokemon are in the tier-list is because their Potential has been explored, and Saying Pokemon In UR are useless when they might have Undiscovered Potential is bad
 
Kommo-o: A+—>A or even A-

kommo-o is just not that good for me. with the rise of max physical defense ferrothorn and existing physical walls such as toxapex and corvinight, on top of getting destroyed by faster special attacking dragons and clefable, kommo-o is just outclassed by something at whatever it wants to do. also, kommo-o’s most common defensive set can’t touch dragapult.

calcs because why not:

252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 288-338 (81.3 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is the scarf set for hydrei, I know ppl prefer draco meteor on it but I like dpulse better)

252 SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 338-402 (95.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (this is the hex set)

252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 286-344 (80.7 - 97.1%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kommo-o Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 101-119 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

thanks for reading guys!
 

Finchinator

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A Hydreigon drop would be a poor idea. While the Choice Scarf set is losing popularity, the Nasty Plot + Life Orb variant is one of the metagame's premier breakers. The coverage it possesses (Draco Meteor + Flamethrower + Flash Cannon) coupled with the sheer strength of a Life Orb Hydreigon is genuinely unmatched within the metagame currently. Seeing as it outruns at least four Pokemon on most balance teams and nothing quicker than it can switch-in safely, it should be no surprise that Nasty Plot Hydreigon is a menace in a balance oriented metagame. Of course, it will struggle a bit against more offensive teams, but those are limited beyond the various flavors of cheese we periodically encounter. Hydreigon should stay where it is and not move anytime soon.
 
A Hydreigon drop would be a poor idea. While the Choice Scarf set is losing popularity, the Nasty Plot + Life Orb variant is one of the metagame's premier breakers. The coverage it possesses (Draco Meteor + Flamethrower + Flash Cannon) coupled with the sheer strength of a Life Orb Hydreigon is genuinely unmatched within the metagame currently. Seeing as it outruns at least four Pokemon on most balance teams and nothing quicker than it can switch-in safely, it should be no surprise that Nasty Plot Hydreigon is a menace in a balance oriented metagame. Of course, it will struggle a bit against more offensive teams, but those are limited beyond the various flavors of cheese we periodically encounter. Hydreigon should stay where it is and not move anytime soon.
While LO Hydreigon is very powerful, is it really taking over the scarf set right now? I feel like the LO set is way too easily revenge killed by metagame staples Dragapult and Zeraora.

90% Hydreigon, AKA best case scenario. With decent pivoting you are able to get it to at least 80%, which will be the second calc.

252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 258-304 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 258-304 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 484-578 (148.9 - 177.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 386-456 (118.7 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


While Hydreigon is an incredible breaker, I don't think its scarf set is losing popularity. Besides that, I agree with your statement that it shouldn't even be close to moving down.
 
While LO Hydreigon is very powerful, is it really taking over the scarf set right now? I feel like the LO set is way too easily revenge killed by metagame staples Dragapult and Zeraora.

90% Hydreigon, AKA best case scenario. With decent pivoting you are able to get it to at least 80%, which will be the second calc.

252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 258-304 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 258-304 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 484-578 (148.9 - 177.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 386-456 (118.7 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


While Hydreigon is an incredible breaker, I don't think its scarf set is losing popularity. Besides that, I agree with your statement that it shouldn't even be close to moving down.
LO is definitely the more prominent (and better) set. While scarf might be marginally more useful in certain offense matchups (debatable due to how easy it is for current HO builds to take advantage of a choice locked scarf Hydreigon), it is literally useless against the most dominant archetype of Clefable balance.

In contrast, standard NP LO absolutely destroys standard balance builds with even 5% chip on Clefable. Modest Hydreigon in particular is able to take advantage of these slow teams and is able to find setup opportunities on numerous staples like Rotom-H, Toxapex, Seis and Hippowdon and proceed to absolutely blow up these defensive cores (also has a favourable roll to OHKO Clef at +2, which is gross).

Tl;dr, Hydrei stays A+, and mainly because of the LO set
 
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