Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

[Lily]

been meaning to get around to this for a while now and just haven't managed, here's a personal vr with some explanations. in depth thoughts on all the drops except latias can be found below, i've already said my piece on latias like 5 times in other threads lol:

S Rank

Excadrill

S- Rank

Latias (very very good but lacking in certain areas, immediate power is meh and relying on draco stinks, can often end up doing nothing but roosting depending on the opposing team which is not something you want in your wallbreaker. also has surprisingly little defensive utility considering it's latias.)

A+ Rank

Aegislash

Azumarill (has gotten a lot better, not many teams can actually switch into azumarill and jet is just such good priority. great offensive conk/lati/drei/drill/kommo check and just has tons of utility offensively and defensively)

Celesteela

Conkeldurr (others have covered this and shao already)

Mandibuzz

Mienshao

Kommo-o

Primarina (pretty much what i said about azu, has more switch ins and can be more passive but tends to stick around a lot longer so it fits better on balancey stuff instead of the BOs azu likes)

Tangrowth

Thundurus-T (probably broken if latias goes)

A Rank

Amoonguss

Chansey

Hydreigon

Jirachi

Krookodile

Salamence (try this mon! it's still insanely good, great drill answer, offensive drei check, walls bulu to hell and back and is generally rlly tough to switch into; the fairies can take dark pulse from drei but they sure can't take hurricane)

Skarmory

Slowking

Tapu Bulu (much harder to wall nowadays and terrain is good af)

Zarude

A- Rank

Gyarados

Lycanroc-D

Mamoswine

Moltres-Galar

Nihilego (great at knocking drill... not very good at doing anything else)

Rotom-H

Rotom-W (i find this really hard to justify over slowking prim and azu)

Slowbro-Galar

Swampert

B+ Rank

Azelf

Diggersby

Entei

Hatterene

Moltres

Nidoking

Rhyperior

Seismitoad

Togekiss

Zygarde-10%

B Rank

Gastrodon

Keldeo (i'm sorry little one)

Necrozma

Noivern

Tentacruel

Tornadus

Umbreon

------

-> S

excadrill is pretty clearly the best pokemon in the tier to me right now, evidenced by its absurd SCL usage:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Excadrill          |   10 |  50.00% |  50.00% |

there is just nothing else that provides so much utility in one slot. it's the best rocker, the best removal, a wallbreaker and a wall all on its own, while providing the two most crucial typings in the tier in one slot. there are some issues with that, you can definitely get overloaded if you use drill as your sole steel or sole ground, but others fit naturally alongside it; there's nothing wrong with drill + rachi or drill + aegi, and you can fit stuff like krook or rhyp on drill teams too. its sweeper sets, suicide lead, fat sets and even scarf are all just insane to me. it doesn't matter how easy it is to answer it because right now like, yes it has lots of strong checks like tang skarm steela on most teams, but that really doesn't matter because it doesn't need to attack to make progress and it'll still have utility vs half their teammates. it's so good

-> a+
mandi's really good. when it first dropped I thought it was gonna suck ass but nah it's actually solid, lots of teams really struggle to break it and it provides a lot; ghost resists with recovery are rare and mandi is the best of them. great pivot for stuff like conk and zydog, decent fogger esp if paired with spin drill as backup, honestly can be really annoying to switch into as well. cool mon

-> a

in general i don't rate any of these mons too highly. may be a hot take but I think Hydreigon is really just an on paper threat atm. it's seeing virtually no SCL usage, is not all that common or effective on ladder, and just feels very easy to keep in check to me; between Conk's suffocating Mach Punch, Mienshao's presence, AV Azumarill popping up, Primarina making its life hell and Hydreigon's general inability to OHKO any pivots that can get the other mons that threaten it like Salamence, Latias, and Lycanroc in for free... idk, I just don't see it. Nasty Plot absolutely sucks. Scarf is really good though but it's not an A+ set.
Skarmory is good and I know a lot of people are hyping it up but I find it has wayyy too many flaws. Spikes are absolutely lethal against a lot of teams and a lot of HOs just can't beat Skarm at all but there are some seriously critical flaws you have when using it; a Steel-type that can't take a Draco to save its life, or a Moonblast or anything special really, makes building really awkward and forces similar Slowking lines that I personally don't think are that good because of the passivity of those teams. Skarm in my mind is the only contender for A+ out of the drops but rn I don't see it. It's also just really... awkward-feeling, idk how to describe it but man it wants like 3 items because not having leftovers sucks but then you just straight up get smashed by Excadrill without helmet, and you can't even use it as your knock switchin because then you can't prevent the off and jdfkshn87duisfhg idk it's just not that effective to me. 3 uses in SCL, 0 wins, eh.
Slowking just feels bad to me. I know a lot of people are super high on it (we've seen a significant amount of posts by people claiming it to be broken which is just insane to me) but I don't see it. Using Slowking makes you so weak to so much stuff that other, better waters (prim, azu) just don't struggle with nearly as much; Hydreigon, Aegislash, Mienshao, Krook, probably more and it's so passive and just free setup for shit like Thundy and DD Mence. Teleport is Teleport and it's a good move that enables some structures but it hasn't even been very successful when it has shown up. I guess I wouldn't really care if this was A+ but personally I think it kinda sucks

-> a-
Swampert is good! Rocks / hhp / flip / yawn is pretty cool on grassy terrain teams which I think are very good rn with bulu's increased dominance. forcing a switch with yawn into flip is often very lethal since most teams are surprisingly lacking in swampert answers; they'll have one thing that answers it all game like a tang or moongy but they never want that mon to go to sleep so something has to take a reasonably strong flip and then bitches die to the teammate. I like it a lot. generally got really cool utility as a stopgap against drill steela krook rachi ddmence etc, it's nothing special but it's good enough and tends to stick around a lot in terrain to just tank all these random ass hits and bring in an answer. big fan

i encourage more people to do this if they have the time, it takes forever but it's worth it to get a lot of good opinions and discussion out there

 

[Debble]

To A-
Zydog is a devastating late game cleaner with spikes down and choice band. With 1 layer of spikes and stealth rocks up outrage 2 hit ko's the most defensive of Tangrowths. Zydog can also run toxic in the 4th slot letting it wear down its counters faster to really get a reliable sweep at the end. Thousand arrows is an insanely spamable move and resists to it can only switch in so many times with hazards up. I wouldn't rate it higher since it relies on alot of team support

To B+
Aeigslash offensive sets are just not good. Special sets kinda just gets walled or easily revenge killed. Physical sets get iron defensed on by skarmory or foul played by mandibuzz. Defensive sets just invite in the best pokemon in the tier (excadrill). Against teams with no Mandibuzz. Special Aegislash sets can put in a decent amount of work with hazards up.

 

[Rae]

Heyo! I'm gonna tag along with Lily's personal VR style of post and explain some of my opinions as well!

S Rank

Excadrill (Lily explained it in her post, this things offensive prowess and utility is absurd and i can't think of a reason not to put it in S)

S- Rank

Latias

A+ Rank

Aegislash

Azumarill (tried AV out today and it's much better than i thought! hopping on the azu train)

Conkeldurr (You already know, but i'll also go on my own spiel later)

Mienshao

Kommo-o

Primarina

Slowking

Tangrowth

Thundurus-T

A Rank

Amoonguss

Celesteela

Chansey

Hydreigon

Jirachi

Krookodile

Mamoswine

Mandibuzz

Moltres

Salamence

Skarmory

Tapu Bulu

Zarude

A- Rank

Gyarados

Hatterene

Keldeo (Leader of the ban Lati club)

Lycanroc-D

Moltres-Galar

Nidoking

Nihilego

Rotom-H

Rotom-W

Slowbro-Galar

Swampert

B+ Rank

Azelf

Diggersby

Entei

Noivern

Rhyperior

Seismitoad

Togekiss

Umbreon

Zygarde-10%

B Rank

Gastrodon

Heracross

Necrozma

Reuniclus

Tentacruel

Tornadus

Toxtricity

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-> A+

Conkeldurr’s rise in viability occurred due to the rise of the bulkier teams we've seen around, being a byproduct of two things: better defensive Pokemon like Slowking, Excadrill and Mandibuzz, and the need to check threats like Latias and Hydreigon. Conkeldurr is able to easily break these fatter kinds of teams, making it quite a good pick thanks to its very good move options, making it have virtually no good switch-ins as Facade/Close Combat/Knock Off offers perfect coverage in the metagame. We have recently seen some “techs” to check Conkeldurr, two popular ones being Brave Bird Skarmory and Colbur Psychic Slowking and I feel like these sets is enough reasoning to give it a hefty rise - proving that it's something that you must consider in the teambuilder.

-> A+

There is genuinely one Pokemon that is able to switch into this offensive beast's NP set and it's Latias, which still needs to be careful of the pivot set, however I don't think it'll be problematic for a few of reasons. It's slightly above average Speed stat - as well as its vulnerability to common forms of priority like Accelerock and Ice Shard - makes it somewhat easy to revenge kill and Focus Blast's inconsistency can help you dodge and KO it. What's made it much more difficult to deal with is that our natural forms of Speed control like Zarude, Nihilego and Keldeo have all got a bit worse with these shifts, with Skarmory, Excadrill, Latias and Slowking all discouraging their use respectively. Both the Nasty Plot set and Pivot set are super duper solid right now and I'd highly encourage using Thundy some time if you haven't!

-> A

I'm a super big fan of Hydreigon actually! I feel like it's one of healthier drops we received, able to run a multitude of sets like 3a+Roost, NP, Taunt, Specs and Scarf. Though it may seem a bit frightening at first, particularly Nasty Plot sets, it doesn't get much of an opportunity to set up and being choice locked isn't great for it bar Scarf, so it's able to be handled. Overall hasn't been absolutely outstanding, but it's ability to offensively check a wide range of mons while keeping reliably recovery in Roost makes it well deserving of A

-> A

Finally getting it's time in the spotlight, after being a running joke on the VR, Bulu's having a grand time with the new shifts! Regardless of Helmet Tangrowth rising in popularity, SD Bulu is an absolute monster of a wallbreaker - capable of even 2HKOing Max Defense Skarmory and Mandibuzz. Grassy Terrain is also a major boon for a lot of it's teammates, like Swampert and Excadrill, offsetting their lack of recovery by providing additional longevity. It's other defensive qualities can also come in handy, being a solid switch-in to Hydreigon, Krookodile and Zarude while being able to just barely eat Conk's Facade. Very proud that he's back in the A ranks

-> A

Won't speak much about this one, but Moltres feels a bit better now. With Tangrowth shifting to Helmet sets it gets a lot more freedom to click it's STABs and being able to grab momentum with U-turn is huge for a lot of teams. Being a fast Fire-type in general is great, being a solid Excadrill, Aegislash and Jirachi check while being able to KO Amoonguss and Tangrowth, giving a lot of breakers much more to breathe. I've found myself pairing it a lot with Swampert, being able to take the Electric and Rock moves while Moltres takes advantage of the Grasses switching in. Certainly worth a shot!

-> A-

I think Nidoking got a bit better these shifts, which may be a bit of an odd take considering all of the new checks we got for it. Teleport is an absolute god send for Nidoking, essentially giving it the ability to position itself perfectly against the opponent to click whichever move is most dangerous to the opposing team. Though the likes of Excadrill and Latias give it a hard time, i'm a strong believer in Nidoking supremacy and have got a good feeling about him, particularly with Rotom-formes dropping in usage and Primarina and Azumarill being prominent defensive Pokemon currently.

A few calcs

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 124+ SpD Primarina: 312-369 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 351-413 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Mandibuzz: 244-289 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-> A-

Somewhat echoing Lily's post, but Swampert is pretty good! I'd like to give it particular shout out on Bulky Offense teams that appreciate it's ability to check most Steel's while being able to create momentum. While others think that Seismitoad's ability to hard wall Rotom-formes and dispose of items, Swampert definetly has it's place on more offensive, momentum based teams that like it's defensive utility as a bulky pivot. Partners like Zarude, Tapu Bulu, Moltres, Thundy and Azelf all work pretty well with it, though I believe that BO will really shine if either Lati leaves the tier or we start seeing less balance.

-> B+

The last one i'll cover today, as it's a rather out of pocket nom. Noivern's natural speed tier feels amazing right now, outspeed Mienshao, Thundurus-T, Latias and Hydreigon with ease and chunk them. While some may run U-turn, which can be excellent for a fast pivot, I've found Draco/Cane/Flame to be extremely handy, serving as an offensive check to Salamence, Latias, Hydreigon, Excadrill and more. It's natural bulk is also not to be underestimated, being able to live Mien's Stone Edge barely and secure a KO as long as Hurricane lands. Noivern seems to have a bit more to offer than I'd originally thought, but after testing it out it seems good!

lets keep up with this types of posts, they're super fun to make!

 

[Totomon]

Fat post incoming in regards to mainly Excadrill and other noms oml oml

I somewhat agree with the statements that drill doesn't exactly need to do damage to be a top tier presence, its utility is in fact very valuable and unique, and the fact that you can stack other grounds and (mainly) other steels is very good for the teams you want to fit it in.
However I disagree with the statement that it should be put in S-tier, I say this due to the fact it has one fatal flaw, It lacks an immediate progress-making tool for its greatest roadblocks which should be expected of a metagame defining S tier Pokemon.

This is especially tough as the mons you are letting in with drill are the two most prominent defensive staples in Slowking and Skarmory and offensive Behemoths like Conkeldurr. Due to the fact that you lack this tool to click when they carelessly come in (as even a Toxic on King and Mandibuzz takes a bit of time before it starts to hurt) The Excadrill user is forced to make aggressive switches or just outright lose a ton of momentum and progress. The previously mentioned flaws also force certain moves in the teambuilder necessitating a secondary hazard removal or building in a way with mons that regain momentum easily and aren't affected by spikes (which can be quite limiting)

[GIB] robjr vs Accel [TER]
The SCL game that I linked above is a great showing of what I am referring to, even though Accel (the drill user) won this game he still was forced to make incredibly aggressive double switches to not lose momentum, basically not let excadrill once eq against rob's skarmory. Even though Accel's excadrill was really useful in offensively checking Diancie, Nidoking and deterring Latias draco spam from his opponent just by the presence of one mon in Skarmory drill isn't free to click moves liberally, which isn't what defines an S-Tier Pokemon from me. Accel won this game due to his incredibly good predictions not drill's qualities. If one of those reads went differently Skarm recovers all of the progress that Accel made with SR or even worse drill is KO'd by Nidoking.

When analyzing its other SCL showings it mostly does its job fine as a temporary stopgap to some threats like Lati and Chansey and as a suicide lead that set rocks and kills itself (especially notable in Week 6 Askov vs Accel), it still cannot play liberally as it may let in some incredibly scary threats like in Week 5 Clark vs Askov and Umbry vs Adaam. Obviously SCL isn't the whole metagame but I wanted to point out these instances as they are good showings of Excadrill's strengths and weaknesses as it has very high usage. After all of the bible I wrote I still agree with a lot of what Lily said but I don't see Excadrill as the Sole S-Tier let alone the best in the tier which is why I am nomming it up to A+. Even if this might seem insignificant cus its a 1 rank difference the gap between S and A is incredibly notable.

Some noms that people made that I wanna elaborate on.

-> S AGREE
I think Slowking rn is THE defensive staple, unlike our two previous regen mons it has incredible momentum gaining abilities and isn't a slouch in the offensive department either as it can easily spread status and even f sight with the correct teammates. It pairs beautifully with other defensive staples like Skarmory, Tangrowth/Amoonguss and even Chansey. A lot of our offensive threats at the moment are based around on if they can abuse or beat slowing + friends. (Conkeldurr, Thundurus and Latias) while others that can't deal with them have been pushed aside (Keldeo)

-> A AGREE
Skarmory is an incredibly effective spikes setter and it has many opportunities to set them on the many mons it completely blanks like Excadrill, Tangrowth without Focus Blast, Chansey, and Zarude. However it requires heavy anit-VoltTurn measures and teammates that can cover its weak spots like being a steel that does nothing against lati and gets overwhelmed by Stealth Rock rather quickly. Even if you opt to use boots Skarm is a huge Knock off bait. Skarm also barely covers physical attackers like Azumarill and Mienshao so it needs a secondary check to them so it doesn't get overwhelmed.

-> B+ DISAGREE
Absolutely NO, Aegislash is still a very potent presence as it is the kind of mon that will always makes progress against the opponent due to its uncounterable nature, A lot of its sets have disappeared as they in fact get blanked by the new drops but Sball + Toxic + CC can only be somewhat handled by mandibuzz which can come short in longer games as it also wants to check a bunch of other guys. It heavily abuses the popular Skarm + Slowking core and the defensive utility it brings against Latias, Lycanroc and even Conleldurr is very valuable as it heavily disuades their strongest moves.

Other noms I agree with that I don't wanna elaborate on.
-> A-
-> A-
-> B+
-> S-
-> A

 

[cheru]

Hello UUers, newly badged (very cool) user avg here. I guess I'm gonna hop on the UU Personal VR ranking bandwagon, now with a bit more knowledge than the other rankings from s to b+ from a few weeks with this mess of a tier at the moment.

s rank

Excadrill

Latias

s- rank

Primarina (Use SubCM its super good on especially with all of the new drops)

a+ rank

Aegislash

Azumarill (try out av sets)

Celesteela

Conkeldurr (papi)

Kommo-o

Mienshao (also try out av sets on this as a offensive check to special attackers)

Slowking

Tangrowth

a rank

Amoonguss

Chansey

Hydreigon

Jirachi

Krookodile

Mandibuzz (wall + pivot + recovery + knock all in one is fantastic)

Moltres-G (this mon can just dismantle certain teams. some call it matchup fish but it is able to fit on many teams due to its great stats and typing)

Salamence

Tapu Bulu (#BuluDefenseForce pokemonisfun Adaam avarice Askov Aqua Ring Lilburr Magnum Lyss)

Thundurus-T

Zarude

a- rank

Gyarados

Keldeo

Lycanroc-D

Mamoswine

Moltres

Nihilego

Rotom-H

Rotom-W

Skarmory

Slowbro-G

Swampert (ok so i was a bit wrong with this. After using more physdef sets its way better than spdef. also try out Yawn Flip Turn, i got owned by it.)

Zygarde-10%

b+ rank

Azelf

Diggersby

Hatterene

Noivern

Roserade

Rhyperior

Seismitoad

Tentacruel

Umbreon

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

You know what? Ima hop on the hype train and join you guys cuz school is not entertaining enough. Anything that is not mentioned here I think is either I forgot or they stayed in the same tier.

S Rank

Excadrill (pretty dope sp.def set, checks many pokemon in the tier (dont have to mention the obvious ones such as nihilego, hattrene, jirachi, and choiced locked dragons into their stabs, lead HO pretty much guarantees its hazards stay up while others stay off unless you are skarmory. SD sets while rare can put work in occasionally against Pokemon it can take advantage off like nihilego, sylveon, and regieleki)

S- Rank

Hydreigon

Latias
(both excelent pokemon and they both do different things but hydreigon can easily break through fat teams while latias uses its speed to break through offense with its 3 attacks and scarf, while defensive teams hate trick from specs or scarf sets. Hydreigon NP dual stabs absolutely nuke the skarm slowking core and mandibuzz is free fother 90% of the time it is not running toxic)

A+ Rank

Thundurus-T (great pokemon from the shifts, as it benefits from being able to abuse many of the new pokemon such as exca, hydreigon, slowking, and skarm, while also having a above average speed tier for the metagame. Roost latias is basically its only counter which does not like being forced to roost often especially with stuff such as LO chip hitting it when it tries to attack)

Mandibuzz (It really is not a good deffoger, but it is a great wall and bulky pivot. It can easily switch into moltres, salamence, zarude and more, and use those free turns for toxic, knock off, or a free pivot. Foul play is amazing as discouraging people from setting up in front of it like dd necrozma, dd salamence, dd gyarados, and SD diggersby.)

Skarmory (Great pokemon, great bulk to counter pokemon like krookodile, rhyperior, tapu bulu, zarude and more. Can abuse those free turns for spikes and to phaze them around with whirlwind. It is pretty abusable from the special side and also gives free turns to rotom, aegislash, and primarina tho which is smth that can be dealt with, with its team)

Conkeldurr (WHAT A CLOWN, just rose from B- to A+ just cuz of buzzwole leaving and new pokemon to abuse like hydreigon, skarmory, mandibuzz, and slowking. Losing a check/counter depending on the set is huge for it, now it just goes boing into A+ because of the now bulkier meta, and its not dead weight vs offense to, it has priority and respectable bulk)

Slowking (Another great pokemon, teleport is always abusable in this tier on a good pokemon which is this, great typing and pretty above average bulk alongside regenerator, can check and counter many things such as nihilego, keldeo, primarina, salamence, moltres, and more. Phys. Def king is amazing at luring in conk and krook and blasting them with its powerful stabs)

A Rank

Swampert (not gonna echo the other people who have had success with yawn turn with phys. def, but you get the point... bulkier toad that compress rocks + pivoting move into one pokemon)

Keldeo (it feels like its overexagerated like "its all over, latias is in the tier" I just believe it falls off because of prim rising to counter latias and hydreigon, I may be wrong... ladder does not tell me everything, also slowking abuses it with future sight + teleport into a teammate such as latias or scarf mienshao)

A- Rank

Slowbro-Galar (AV set fell off due to slowking better sp def bulk and ability to run teleport + a better typing for the new threats and old ones such as latias, keldeo, and swampert)

B+ Rank

Roserade (spikes skarmory walls it and sets up all over it, while also losing a great partner in buzzwole, I am not really gonna echo my and others post on it... also latias and the new exca kinda take advanatge of it recovering or clicking a wrong stab)

Tapu Bulu (not really gonna echo others on it, as I believe my arguments are the same as theirs)

Umbreon (This pokemon is good, good typing and checks many of the new threats such as excadrill with inner focus + foul play, hydreigon with its monstrous special bulk as well as latias. It also benefits from the shifts as buzzwole easily took advantage of it with its 3 attacks set and latias being walled. While it mandates a cleric, and being taken advantage of skarmory, the new rising conk, and rest talk prim, but that is nothing that cannot be solved by its teammates.)

 

[Lyssa]

Hello, thought i'd share my personal VR too since I've played the tier quite a bit lately and as usual i have my "unique" takes on some stuff. I'll go in depth on stuff that i think deserves it, also gonna mention that mons are ranked within their tiers (also sorry if i double space a lot but my keyboard is currently broke lol).

Starting off by saying that i don't think there is a huge gap from S to A+ mons, I actually almost consider them on the same level. The only reason i decided to put them S is because i find them as splashable (if not more in Excadrill's case) as mons like slowking or Amoonguss, but a tiny bit better. And on Latias' case, i consider her to be slightly less strong than thundurus and kommo but easier (way easier in thundurus' case) to put on a team and have her performing at her best. One of the reasons I don't consider Latias to be broken in the current metagame is because I don't think she's as flexible as she used to be, but her main set is guaranteed to do at least ok in almost everygame.

Below those 2, I have Thundurus as a strong 3rd. Thundurus is completely busted in my eyes and should be looked at in the near future. Pivot sets are guaranteed to put in a ton of work everygame against anything you can run into, and while you end up running Stab/Focus/psy/turn in most cases due to where thundurus fits the best, you have some options like knock (that helps a ton against fatter mus) and sludge wave (great bulu lure as bulu is what is usually considered a decent counterplay [and basically the safest you can get lol), can be cool paired with something like a zydoge for example) that can be clutch in specific teams. NP has little to none defensive counterplay and takes over games very often once you're able to get it going, but it comes with issues in way less splashability and difficulty to get a NP up in a lot of mus. The only issue that affects Thundurus is that it forces similar structures and it's not rly splashable, but it's the most threaning pokémon in the tier and what(alongside Kommo) makes teambuilding be a nightmare at the moment.

Below Thundurus i have Mienshao as 4th and I think a lot of people already went in depth on Mienshao, LO is amazing and it's the only scarf mon that doesn't give me a headache other than jirachi. Av is not the best but can be ran if it's necessary. Kommo is probably the next mon worth mentioning, as I believe this is the other mon that should be looked at. Kommo can run infinite sets and all of them are good, and while all of them have specific counterplay, other Kommo sets just own the mons supposed to check the other ones. The best example that comes to my mind is switch Azu or Prima on Kommo expecting clangsoul, just to see it SD on you and pjab your fairy right after. Stuff like sub BD(bom dia) are less common options but still exist in HO variants and can win games on spot if you make 1 misplay trying to cover another set. Closing out the A+ rank I have Azu which I've been playing a lot with recently and i'm surprised by how good it feels currently. Assault vest in particular is extremely threatning to almost everything with any number of layers or rocks up, and i rly don't believe in tangrowth currently which would be one of the few annoying things for it. Other sets are also good, i think that BD underperforms in reality but it rly just depends on MU and i've seen people respect it a lot.

Opening up the A rank I have Primarina which i think is as good as Azu but it's best sets (subcm and specs) are way harder to fit on teams. Conkeldurr is amazing but i think the meta has already adapted to it to the point where it's not broken levels of good, since most builds kinda stop him from clicking more than 1-2 moves a game without getting punished. Bulu had a huge rise in the meta and i find him rly cool rn, kinda flexible in what it does and most games it ends up doing things that aren't healing the opponent's team which is great.

Krook got hit hard pretty hard by the shifts in my opinion, the introduction of 2 better dark types and excadrill basically doing it's job but better hurted it quite a bit. I think it still has it's unique niches and scarf is ok but it got way worse. Nidoking is quite underrated in my opinion but i can see why people are low on him, I still think that he's one of the best setters if he fits well on the team and that he can be god in a lot of mus (if you click the right move). Tangro is pretty outclassed in everything other than checking azu but knock keeps it somewhat relevant. The good washtom set can still be ok but it's not nearly as good as it used to be, especially cause it can't switch on Exca.

Cobalion is the first mon i want to talk about in B+ since I think it's unique in what it does and it does it decently, I haven't really seen it much after shifts but when i did it was consistently good(and it would've done something in the hs game probably). Weezing is a mon i'm surprised i didn't see the others talk about yet. It's niche is something only it can do, and while It doesn't fit on teams in most cases, when it does it does it's job well. Being able to be the only reliable conkeldurr switchin, can be an emergency azu switchin, negates regenerator which is huge, only tpikes setter in the tier and gets some great corrosive gasses off. Can also save you from the random nihilego that is about to go insane so that's a plus. Keldeo being that low is probably surprising but it's completely outclassed at this point, specs is still okay in some matchups and it's better than celesteela vs slowking because you can at least flip turn onto it instead of having to double out everytime! Talking about steela, i think it's really down bad. Not only Slowking completely negates it, But everything in the tier outside of like gmolt has a way to abuse it or just owns it. If latias stays i suppose it's slightly better but every other steel type is way better and the niche it had is lost at this point. Tornadus is something i was kinda surprised by, since it was pretty good when i tried it and consistently did stuff. Being reliant on Hurricane and being monodimensional in what it fits onto(while not being outclassed) is what helds it down here.

Only things really worth mentioning in B are toxtricity who has been on a rise lately and has a solid niche, and probably Suicune since it's another mon with a unique niche and while it's mostly theorical, i think it can do a lot to unprepped teams, and since it's main answers like Zarude are running sets that don't deal with it as well as they used to (you can easily beat scarf rly), it should be able to win some games. Reuni farms teams that aren't ready to deal with it, Entei is like fire zydog, umbreon's solid on stall, noivern is better if latias stays. Closing out i put mons i'm not really sure about. Swampert deserves to be ranked somewhere between A- and B+ but haven't tried it nor played against it, same with Heracross probably even if i wouldn't go above B. Not sure about Lycanroc currently since it's completely off the radar, and the other 3 are just bad in my eyes. Never really liked hatterene and i think that slowking switching on it and TPing out + exca being around make it even worse than usual, Roserade is outclassed and Seismi is worse swampert in everything except knocking stuff that often don't need to be knocked.

Kinda ended up writing more than i expected, this meta is cool but still needs some adjustments, looking forward to playing it in uusd hopefully!

 

[ausma]

everyone's doing this so i want to be cool
gonna do the a-ranks mostly because those have been what i've been toying with, anything you dont see on here assume i think is under a-

S Rank

Excadrill (Excadrill is phenomenal role compression with a superb defensive typing and the potential to be one of the strongest win conditions in the tier. I'm not sure if I see it as being S or S- but I'm leaning more toward S for the reasons pretty much everyone has said above, longevity and being stone-walled by the metal planes (Celesteela/Skarmory) as well as Tangrowth are the only real issues it has, but it's not exactly hopeless against them since access to Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin let it actually make progress regardless. Either way it is nothing short of phenomenal and can provide a lot in just one slot.

Latias (Latias does everything you really want it to. It's a premier offensive Pokemon with an obscene utility and coverage movepool, alongside an amazing defensive typing, Levitate, and an incredible Speed tier. it's for sure S tier for how much it provides for teams and how easy it is to stick on literally any offense.

S- Rank

Kommo-o (Cracked offensively, defensively provides a lot, sets rocks, insane coverage and utility movepool. Most banworthy mon in the tier imo)

A+ Rank

Aegislash (Such a good Steel in a Lati meta, pairs phenomenally with drill, SubToxic beats 95% of the tier or at least applies game-changing pressure.)

Conkeldurr

Jirachi (Jirachi is criminally underrated and lowkey SpDef Wish and CM are good as fuck. I would put this in S- but we haven't really seen any major breakout usage of it yet but from my time using it, I just highly advise you use it because it has been mad consistent for me)

Mandibuzz (losing boots is egregious as always, and that limits its defensive merits, but its typing, role compression, and raw bulk will always make it a pretty strong pick in the grand scheme of things in a tier where there aren't many Fairies to exploit it and when it defensively checks a wider pool of mons that don't rly employ knock)

Mienshao (I like Mienshao's speed tier a lot, Regenerator and SR resistance are a natural fit for AV which is cool for switching into Hydreigon and pinch-switching into Thundy; CC + Knock are really hard to switch into, and anything that switches into either easily gets turned against.)

Primarina

Slowking

Thundurus-T

A Rank

Celesteela (Meta is more power crept with these latest drops which makes its walling abilities a lot harder to get value out of, but spamming Leech Seed against 90% of mons and checking Latias, Excadrill, and Tapu Bulu is always going to be super nice)

Chansey

Hatterene (Hatterene is really good, it's a Fairy that can deflect Latias's coverage while laying out pressure with Nuzzle paras, perfect neutral coverage with its STABs + Mystical Fire, takes advantage of hazard stacks. Hard to keep healthy and is slow as dong but I think it's a pretty great Pokemon rn)

Hydreigon (Specs Draco from this hits harder from Lati, tho heavy competition from latias is always gonna suck. Nasty Plot and switching into Aegislash is always going to make Hydreigon worth watching out for, especially for bulkier structures; if Latias gets banned Hydra is probably going to become considerably better)

Krookodile

Mamoswine

Moltres-Galar (I think Mandibuzz is much more consistent than it defensively but Plot RestTalk is always going to be an amazing win condition, and on HO it's silly as hell.)

Salamence

Skarmory (Needs Brave Bird otherwise everything in the tier and their mom takes advantage of it, pretty dope Spiker and wall though)

Tangrowth (Tangrowth is a tad too exploitable to really be a bonafide A+ threat imo. It's a great wall but incredibly reliant on Knock Off and powders to keep itself from being passive which can be really dangerous against things like Skarmory and Kommo-o, but it's still pretty good)

Tapu Bulu (Definitely a more palatable meta for it offensively, but its speed tier and awkward mu against birds can be really annoying against more offensive structures)

Zarude

A- Rank

Amoonguss (The 'guss is generally a step down from Tang since it lacks Knock to make progress outside of Spore and gets owned hard by Kommo but consistently checking Primarina is always super nice)

Azelf (Superb speed tier, Thundy-levels of effective, progress-forcing offensive pivot with really powerful coverage.)

Gyarados (This mon wins games comically easily with Moxie. Run it with Lum and it can snowball a lot easier against Amoon/Tang fat structures)

Moltres (Defensively it's Mandi but worse honestly, offensively it's ayte)

Reuniclus (AV is SO GOOD. makes so much progress with knock spam, super cool Kommo/Lati check, etc. Hatt in general is a bit better for its U-turn neutrality and being outright immune to Clanging/Draco but Regen and access to Knock has a lot of merit. Setup is also demonic; combination of sets I feel warrants A-, since Knock spam rly sucks for Reuni)

Rotom-H (Offensively it's really not doing anywhere near as good as it was, but checking Mamoswine and Thundy-T in one slot is fucking great

Swampert (It's got its merits but I certainly think it leaves a bit to be desired in comparison to Drill as a Ground and Slowking as a Water)

Zygarde-10% (Rip if against Tang or Mandi but it kind of fucks everything else with Thousand Arrows spam and eclipsing Lati is really big)


fuck-if-i-know-but-you're-probably-in-the-a-ranks tier

Azumarill (Haven't really used it so not too comfortable with ranking it, apparently it's pretty good with AV tho)

Lycanroc-D (i have genuinely no clue how good i think dog of the murder variety is rn, it either fucks shit up really really hard or dies. may not be in the a's tho since defensive utility is 0)

Togekiss (I think Kiss is pretty solid rn, plot is a cool breaker and it being a Fairy that actually beats Zarude and non-sedge Tapu Bulu is pretty cool)

Nihilego (I mean... yeah it's prolly still pretty good because meteor beam is meteor beam but I haven't used it or seen it at all so idk)

 

[Monky25]

I wanted to wait until the results of the latias test came out before making this post. My nominations are based on my experience laddering and preparing for majors, so I have a solid idea of the viability of many Pokemon even post Latias. A VR update is coming very soon anyway so I might as well post while I can. I have a lot of changes to suggest, so I’ve made my own personal VR for a visual of what my ideal VR looks like. I’m not gonna cover every change mostly because it would make this post even longer, not to mention a few of these are self explanatory.

Monky VR aka the good one

S Rank
Deez nuts
A+ Rank

Aegislash

Hydreigon

Kommo-o

Primarina

Skarmory

Slowking

Tangrowth

Thundurus-T
A Rank

Amoonguss

Azumarill

Celesteela

Conkeldurr

Excadrill

Jirachi

Krookodile

Mandibuzz

Moltres-Galar

Mienshao

Tapu Bulu

Zarude
A- Rank

Chansey

Gyarados

Keldeo

Lycanroc-D

Mamoswine

Moltres

Nihilego

Rotom-W

Salamence

Slowbro-Galar
B+ Rank

Azelf

Diggersby

Hatterene

Nidoking

Rhyperior

Roserade

Rotom-H

Seismitoad

Swanpert

Tentacruel

Togekiss

Zygarde-10%
B Rank

Chandelure

Cobalion

Diancie

Entei

Gastrodon

Heracross

Necrozma

Noivern

Reuniclus

Starmie

Tornadus

Toxtricity

Umbreon
B- Rank

Articuno

Crawdaunt

Golisopod

Mantine

Nidoqueen

Obstagoon

Quagsire

Sylveon

Volcanion

Weezing Galar
C+ Rank

Gardevoir

Grimmsnarl

Mimikyu

Polteageist

Suicune
C Rank

Crobat

Ditto

Haxorus

Kingdra

Lucario

Metagross

Politoed

Porygon-Z

Ribombee

Scolipede

Sneasel

Torkoal

Venusaur
D

Regieleki
UR

Shuckle

Raikou

Regidrago

Jellicent

Klefki

Heliolisk

Pyukumuku

Incineroar

Froslass

Guzzlord

Omastar

Indeedee-F

New Placements

to A+: I want to first say that in my own opinion, nothing really stands out as S rank for now to me. At the very top we have Pokemon like Slowking, Kommo-o, and primarina but none really stand out enough from all the others in A+ to warrant a separate S ranking. I think Slowking is def one of the best defensive picks in the tier, synergizing with other defensive picks and enabling strong breakers, but the growing popularity of aegislash, galarian moltres, hydreigon, and thundurus really hinders slowking at times. A metagame staple that should be ranked in A+, but it doesn't really feel like S as of now and the hype has certainly started to die down a bit.

to A+: Hydreigon has easily become one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier. Without a primarina, azumarill, or chansey, good luck switching into boosted attacks. It also offers a lot to teams thanks to its solid defensive utility checking aegislash, rotoms, and slowking. That's not all though, hydreigon has insane set versatility. 3 attacks roost, nasty plot, choice specs, choice scarf, taunt, and defog all have seen usage. It's one of the biggest threats in the builder and should be A+ to reflect that. S is a bit too much since it has a crippling weakness to fairy and fighting types as well as an abusable speed tier.

to A+: I think Skarmory is very good atm. It's a catch-all physical wall capable of stopping major threats like Excadrill, Gyarados, and Lycanroc from causing havoc. It provides broken spikes and can act as a solid phazer with a whirlwind. It fits on nearly every archetype barring hyper offense, it's just a great Pokemon and is certainly a tier staple to warrant an A+ ranking.

to A: A bit of an unpopular opinion but I'm not too high on Excadrill as of now. It's a great utility Pokemon and certainly top 15 in the tier, but it always feels lacking to me. I feel the utility set wants spin, rocks, toxic, and STABs all in one set and it feels awkward to drop any of these. SD spin sets are cool in theory until you realize the odds of getting both an SD and spin off are very slow, as you’ll be forced out by something since the opponent will certainly not let it boost. It's also walled by skarmory and can't do much into it which is annoying especially since I see skarm like every other game, not to mention its checked by other common threats like tangrowth, celesteela, krookodile, conk, azumarill, mienshao, and moltres. It's not a bad Pokemon and will probably get voted into A+ anyway judging from internal discussion, but I still am not crazy about it right now. Certainly nowhere close to S rank at all

to A: Contrary to what everyone thought would happen to Mandibuzz when we first heard it would be dropping, Mandibuzz is actually quite good. It is so fat and will live basically any unboosted hit barring absurdly strong ones like a CB Azu play rough. It helps keep threats like Gyarados and NP Azelf in line as well as act as a solid pivot into special attackers like Hydreigon. It compresses lots of roles like a ghost resist, wall, ground immunity, momentum grabber, and defogger if you want that even though I think defog is ass. A solid mon in the tier and I feel A is a nice ranking for it to start.

to B+: Despite being ranked the lowest out of all the drops, Swampert is still a very viable option to use in the tier. It is a solid stealth rock setter due to its ability to grab momentum with Flip turn, giving it a better niche over the more passive seismitoad. Physically defensive sets are the best since it can check excadrill pretty well. However, the lack of recovery does sting and often needs support from bulu or a wish passer to have longevity. Still, it's a solid Pokemon and on par with its competition in Seismitoad in terms of viability, so I’d rank it in B+ and see where Swampert goes from here. I wouldn’t be surprised to raise it higher in the future though.

- not much to say except I support ranking all of these. Golisopod has a lot of good traits like physical wall, ground resist, spikes, and revenge killer that warrant it a solid ranking at B-. Weezing-Galar is the conk counter on stall that also takes on mienshao and azumarill while nullifying the regenerator mons. Porygon-Z is a decent breaker that has its niche demonstrated well enough to want me to rank it. Heracross is similar to conk but trades the offense MU and longevity for a better speed tier and a killer Megahorn to destroy slowking and phys def Tang. Heracross has a good shot at rising even higher but since it's going from UR I'm putting it at B for now to not overstep. I’m not putting any replays for Heracross since we were gonna rank it anyway from internal discussion. Politoed is ass but rain does have a small yet defined niche. Idk if it'll last but for now it could land itself in C. I disagree with all other nominations of UR Pokemon, they are all dogshit I’m sorry and we’re trying to clean up C this update.
Notable rises

to A+: Thundurus is looking very nasty with latias gone. Nothing is really taking it on at +2 without trading significant health against it. It is also a superb offensive pivot that can threaten staples like hydreigon and moltres with its speed tier. Troubled by the cores of slowking + skarm + amoonguss? Use thundurus, you wont regret it. One of the scariest threats in the tier and should shoot all the way up to A+ based on this.

to A+: I think Tangrowth is amazing right now and is a better spot than amoonguss to have it rise to A+. Tang’s best quality is its ground resistance and larger physical bulk over Amoonguss, being able to check excadrill, zygarde-10%, and azumarill better while still being solid against the likes of zarude, conk, and mienshao. It synergizes with top picks like slowking and skarmory and covers lots of bases when building. One of the best defensive pillars in the tier that can rise to A+ as of now.

to A: Last time Azumarill was raised to A it got used like 3 times in tours lol, but now azu has made a resurgence yet again thanks to its typing and solid power, being able to check clanger and hydreigon in a pinch. Band is a dangerous wallbreaker as always, though BD sets have also been very common on HO teams. Its low speed and eh bulk will always hold it back but right now Azu should reside in A rank to reflect how potent it is right now.

to A: While I do think Conk is kinda overrated I also cannot deny it is much better now. Conk likes a hard counter in buzzwole being gone and appreciates the slower state of the metagame. It has no true counters and once it gets in you can just click buttons. It pairs well with bulu to help its longevity issues as well as slow pivots like chansey, slowking, and mandi to get in safely. It’s Speed tier is an issue and conk has begun to be accounted for more, so a rise to just A reflects my thoughts on conk as a whole right now.

to A: One of the biggest underdogs of the generation, Tapu Bulu has been the best it's ever been since the beginning of the DLCs. Though I always thought the VR unfairly represented Bulu, I didn't think it was all that and would have put it in the low B ranks. However, Tapu Bulu’s potential became realized with these tier shifts. SD + horn leech, close combat, and darkest lariat is a fantastic set that destroys staples like slowking, chansey, and aegislash with ease. It's always gonna be walled by something so just make the most out of it! Megahorn is a cool alternative to remove tang and deal heavy damage to Amoonguss. Defensive sets are still solid and the choice scarf set is a decent revenge killer. However, the biggest benefit to using bulu now is the grassy terrain support it provides, as the passive recovery goes a long way. Conk worn down? Pair it with bulu. Aegislash running low on HP from using substitutes too much? Pair it with Bulu. Want to patch up the longevity of your swampert? Pair it with Bulu. Its ability to enable so many threats as well as act as a solid breaker with a fair bit of defense utility makes Tapu Bulu good enough to rejoin the A ranks.

to A: Galarian Moltres is another Pokemon that has been rising up lately, being a nasty win-condition on hyper offense teams. What sets goltres apart from other sweepers is its massive bulk, being able to eat a thunderbolt from an unboosted thundurus even. This sequence can trigger its weakness policy AND Berserk while still getting off an agility. Good luck dealing with a +3 gmolt that outspeeds everything in the tier after a boost. A super dangerous sweeper that has been growing as of late and should rise to reflect that.

to A-: I used to hate this mon but now it's not so bad. Being able to switch into Excadrill is nice and likes the decline of threats like keldeo, nihilego, and rotom-w. It was sorta teetering on the viability of A- pre-shifts but now I think Moltres is good enough to rejoin A- thanks to its good MU against Exca as well as ability to threaten common Grass and steel-types.

to B: Talked about this a bit in the discord but I think Chandelure has lots of potential for further growth. This meta feels a lot like March where chandy was very dominant and preyed on the common cores of skarm + slowking + fat grass type. I do think the toxic+ hex set will be best now thanks to its ability to cripple and wear down mandibuzz and hydreigon while still having lots of power. It likes lots of threats to it like nihi and keldeo being down bad as well. Chandy is certainly on the come up and I can see it getting even more usage as the meta develops.

to B: Another Pokemon that benefits from the slow meta, toxtricity is a very dangerous option on HO teams. LO boomburst hits like a truck and its shift gear set is a really good late game cleaner that matches up against stall nicely. Its poison immunity goes a long way too. Even with the presence of excadrill, tox has still shown some good results and should rise to B.

to B: I think diancie is quite nice right now. Its ability to handle dangerous sweepers like goltres, clanger, and thundurus gives it a solid noche on BO and balance teams. Pairs well with Bulu too. Not much else to say, solid anti cheese mon and could def rise a subrank.

to B-: I think this mon is pretty overhyped. Latias getting the boost gives us yet another reason to use prim over this. Sylveon isn't a bad Pokemon in a vacuum but is very tough to justify over prim and I hesitate to raise it a bit. Still, the wish cores it forms can be very reliable at taking on the larger metagame, not to mention it still checks threats like kommo-on and hydreigon nearly as well as prim does, thus making a small rise worth it.

to C+: I think Mimikyu is a pretty solid option on HO teams atm. Disguise is really nice to eat a hit and boost up or revenge kill a threat. It is still kinda weak and gets worn down easily, but its ability to check hydreigon and clanger in a pinch and power through teams in the late game makes it worth a slight subrank rise.
Notable drops

to A-: We all knew this drop was coming but Keldeo is just not very good at the moment. Even with latias gone, the dominance of slowking and primarina isn't doing keldeo any favors. Choice sets are even more prediction reliant while subCM is just owned by slowking. However, I do still think adaptations like incorporating toxic for slowking in its sets gives keldeo a fair shot at viability. It can be reserved as a solid late game cleaner once king is gone and pairs well with other threats like zarude and thundurus. I'm unsure how keldeo would look going forward but for now a drop to A- is most appropriate.

to A: A small drop but krook is less required in the builder now with its role compression. It faces new competition in excadrill for the resident ground type on teams and doesn't like the dominance of skarm and the grasses. It's still a great Pokemon but not deserving of an A+ rank right now.

to A: I still think celesteela is great but I cannot deny it has more issues than it did last meta. Slowking just pivots in and bails out without having to worry about anything. It faces a fair amount of competition from other steels in the builder, limiting its splashability. Powerful breakers like conk, shao, and azu can easily break past this too. I've run into some auto sets and they can be threatening and unpredictable but are also unreliable at times. It's fallen off a bit but still a solid Pokemon so it should be in A.

to A-: The washer fell off hard during this shift. With the most common offensive grounds being able to hit it and the other waters like prim and azu not giving free entry to the dragons, washer has been unseen for this entire month. It still offers decent traits like being an ok pivot, but washer def is past its prime and should drop to A- for now.

to A-: All of these should drop from A to A-. Lycanroc is still a solid breaker and good anti HO mon, but the general defensive power creep of the tier means lycan won't be KOing stuff as easily as it would like and is even more prediction reliant, since it loses health no matter what. Accidentally CC the slowking who will just regen it off anyway? Your lycan is 12% closer to dying. We could see a resurgence of lycan in the future but for now it should drop. Nihilego still has a lot of potential due to its highly valuable knocks and ability to threaten thundurus, but the presence of excadrill and slowking really hinder it from making any progress, even if it does knock them off. Mence just feels mid and doesn't really compare to the better dragons in kommo-o and hydreigon. DD is unreliable and is stopped by skarm easily while the special sets are walled to hell and back by slowking and chansey. Mence really just isn't in a great place now. Lastly, AV glowbro has lost a lot of its value with excadrill and hydreigon being popular as well as slowking being a better special wall thanks to teleport and better bulk while having slack off. CM sets aren't too hot either, I could honestly see glowbro drop even further in the future.

to B+: All of these should drop to B+. Rose drops down from A to B+ to show how it has not retained its position in the metagame to even warrant the A ranks. It lost a crucial partner in buzzwole and gained lots of competition in skarm. It puts a lot of holes in your team by being a grass that loses very hard to conk and exca. Rhyperior has taken a major hit in viability right now, as it isn't checking much lately. Looking at my own VR in the S through A- ranks, rhyperior matches up well against basically none of them barring the moltres forms, mence, and nihilego. It's just too reliant on trading and gets worn down too quickly to be effective lately. It def needs to drop to B+ and it might even drop out of the tier as a whole if things don't improve for it. Lastly, rotom-H should drop down to B+ mostly because I just don't find it as good as the rest of my A- rank lol, kinda a half-assed reasoning but deal with it.

to B: Necro should drop to reflect the giant drop in consistency it has. Special sets are near unviable now because of slowking, not to mention mandi and hydrei force it to conserve meteor beams, lowering its reliability. DD is still a solid set, especially when mixed for skarm, but necro is certainly not good enough to warrant a higher ranking as of now. Entei feels meh right now, it's a rocks weak breaker that hates slowking and primarina being good. It also gives free turns to the likes of NP hydreigon and soul kommo-o to set up and break through teams. It's not at its best right now and doesnt fit in alongside the other B+ ranks. Starmie is in a similar boat in that it hates slowking blocking its Life orb set, and now wants to run thunderbolt to hit it. This set now wants stabs, ice beam, t bolt, and recovery, making it tough to drop a move and will have less consistency regardless of which one it drops. Rapid spin utility sets are very passive and let threatening stuff like azu and hydreigon in for free, so starmie in general is in a rough place right now.

to B-: These two are grouped together to show in general how they feel very awkward as bulky water types in a tier dominated by slowking and primarina. They also let the dragons in for free and have to rely on status to punish them, especially the latter with a sludge bomb. They offer cool traits like hazard control and azumarill check respectively but both need to drop right now to reflect their lesser value in the tier right now.

to C+: both of these should drop this update. Gardevoir lost a lot of its value being a great countermeasure to rain and in general is a fairy type that provides limited defensive utility. Still, its ability to counter thundurus as well as be a decent choice scarf user makes it keep a ranking. Polteageist is threatening if there is no zarude, hydreigon, galarian moltres, mandibuzz, or celesteela on the opposite team, but this makes it a pretty big MU fish since all of these mons are great. It's pretty inconsistent in general and should drop down to C+ .

to C: Rain is basically dead now, though it has a small viability with politoed as the setter. Slowking being in the tier as well as the best setter and abuser being gone really hurts. It won a SCL game as well as a few majors games though, so idm keeping rain ranked for the time being. Since Kingdra is a near staple of rain, it should be ranked alongside politoed akin to how torkoal and venusaur are ranked together to reflect the low viability of the playstyle.

to D: Eleki has always sucked, though now new and prominent electric immunities like excadrill and thundurus pushes it to unviability. Toxic spikes are awful right now and in general eleki is such a MU fish that it genuinely isn’t worth using over the more consistent and better thundurus. It will put in work against very few teams and should be D to show its complete unviability in the tier right now since we can’t sadly UR it

-all of these Pokémon should be UR as I believe they have not enough of a niche to justify a ranking anymore. Rain is nearly dead and neither omastar nor heliolisk are staples by any means, so they don’t have a strong enough niche to continue to be on the VR. Jellicent offers a few good traits but with rain being gone as well as better water types like slowking, primarina, and even stuff like washer, swampert, and tentacruel available makes it pretty much outclassed now. Spikes HO is not great due to exca being everywhere, plus I’ve seen more scolipede as a suicide lead than froslass due to its speed boosting ability, so froslass should be UR to reflect its limited use over scolipede and in general. Incineroar just hasn’t justified itself over other setup sweepers due to its ok attack and poor speed. Defensive sets do not exist and only act as a fake aegislash check anyway. Klefki doesn’t offer much over other steel or fairy types due to its eh bulk. Skarmory is much better as a spikes setter right now due to it actually beating excadrill. Raikou is just way too inferior to thundurus-t to have it keep a ranking, while regidrago has a cool niche in theory but in general is a MU fish and not worth using over more consistent dragon-types. Last and certainly least, shuckle should be UR due to it being an absolutely terrible webs setter. I do want to talk about webs as a whole for a bit. Despite the presence of excadrill in the tier, I still do think webs are viable. Stun spore is a death sentence for exca and Ribombee can just come in later to set up webs with it gone. Furthermore, it's quite easy to fit a setup sweeper like gyara, azu, or SD clanger that owns a paralyzed excadrill. However, this is only accomplished by using ribombee, not shuckle which is such an inferior setter due to its passivity and super poor matchup against all hazard removers. Shuckle is easily the worst Pokemon that is still ranked and should be UR this coming update.

- I'm voting to UR all of these but I could be convinced to rank them in the future. Pykuku just doesn't offer much over quag, especially since quag can take on thundurus while pyuk cant. However, If I do see a stall that makes pyuk distinguish itself over quag idm ranking it again. Psychic terrain is a very awkward playstyle, with all of the normal abusers (necro, mbeam nihi, teapot) being mid with all of the darks and special walls running around. Like for pyuk if I see a solid and consistent Psychic terrain team come up idm ranking it again. Guzzlord doesn't offer much over hydreigon or clanger but it does have some cool traits like countering slowking and acting as a phazer with spikes. Will UR for now but I wouldn't be surprised if it picks up again and we rank it in the future.

 

[Aqua Jet]

UR -> C+

Set

Wild Wild Love (Tauros) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Body Slam
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop
- Fire Blast

What does it do?
Sporting an amazing ability in Sheer Force, blistering speed, and a decent movepool, I think Tarous has proven itself to be viable enough in the UU metagame post-shifts to be ranked. Tauros runs Body Slam as a strong Sheer Force boosted STAB move capable of 2HKOing many foes such as Stealth Rock Kommo-o, Mienshao, and Tapu Bulu. Close Combat is used as a means of threatening the omnipresent Excadrill, with Tauros always winning the 1v1 against any form of Excadrill. Close Combat can also be used to threaten foes like Chansey, and ones that resist Body Press such as Lycanroc-Dusk. Throat Chop is used as coverage against Ghost-types that may be immune to the last two moves such as Aegislash and Chandelure. It also offers coverage against Psychic-type Pokémon in the tier such as Jirachi and Slowking, being able to 2HKO Defensive variants of both assuming Slowking isn't holding a Colbur Berry. Lastly, Fire Blast allows Tauros to hit Skarmory super effectively, 2HKOing the pesky bird. Some other options on Tauros include running Iron Head in order to prevent Calm Mind Hatterene from switching into Tauros, but this option is generally outclassed by just pairing Tauros with a Steel-type as by running Iron Head Tauros is forgoing an important coverage move.
Why is it good?
Here are just a few prominent Pokémon Tauros is able to beat:

Pokémon​	Calculation​	Notes​
​	252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 429-507 (118.8 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 4 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 147-174 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​	​
​	252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 309-367 (95 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 190-225 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​	​
​	252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 185-218 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​	It is imperative that Tauros uses Fire Blast when Aegislash uses King's Shield so Tauros' attack is not lowered.​
​	252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Amoonguss: 183-216 (42.3 - 50%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 127-150 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO​	​
/ ​	252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 216-255 (66.8 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 434-512 (149.1 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO​	Keldeo / Keldeo-Resolute must be switching in.​
​	252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 164-192 (56.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 152 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 338-398 (116.1 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO ~~~ 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 164-192 (56.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 223-264 (76.6 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​	Stealth Rock Kommo-o must be switching in.​

What are its drawbacks?
As the frail Normal-type that it is, running Tauros as your physical wallbreaker makes your team extremely weak to Conkelldur's Mach Punch. This can be sidestepped however by running teammates that are able to deal with Conkeldurr before Tauros comes in such as Moltres and Brave Bird Skarmory. Conkeldurr cannot switch in on Tauros however, as Body Slam can OHKO it while Mach Punch fails to OHKO Tauros without Stealth Rock being up.

Besides Tauros being Jesus, I also want to throw my support behind Gilisopod and Weezing-Galar being reranked, as well as each of the Pokémon ranked with Rain being reasons behind their place on the VR to be lowered (examples are Gardevoir, Kingdra, Jellicent, Heliolisk, and Omastar).

 

[Tommaconda]

Tauros looks like a pretty cool meta game pick Aqua Ring, and your post is well reasoned, but do you have any replays to support your nomination for a UR mon?

 

[pokemonisfun]

Tauros looks like a pretty cool meta game pick Aqua Ring, and your post is well reasoned, but do you have any replays to support your nomination for a UR mon?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1447630383-e3989abw25kpczpzchzci4mz50up1zkpw

ladder game vs 1588 - so clearly Tauros did some cleaning work at the end. Body Slam was nice and spammable after his Normal resist was weakened and the only threat was Flame Body Moltres which did not occur. Tauros' decent bulk also came into play, as it easily survive Zygarde's Thousand Arrows unlike something like Mienshao or Thundurus which would mightily struggle to take it. Overall, a clean sweep by Tauros

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1447646593-5fnbxxswskd71uwtz58c3eapjfaum4jpw

ladder game vs 1467 - again, Tauros does it's cleaning work here, no longer needing to predict again after the Normal resist is eliminated. As Aqua Ring already noted, Skarmory isn't much of an impediment anyways as Fire Blast will maul it but Tauros' good speed tier here lets it sweep the heck out of the opponent - something like Thundy-T wouldn't be able to sweep (and was thus sacrificed) because of Nihilego outspeeding.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1447656134-o734pr041g96osh071krxtw5hzkupcepw

ladder game vs 1649 - Tauros this time shows its not always a late game sweeper and can badly pressure teams with multiple normal resists. Excadrill is just a non factor as Close Combat can OHKO and Tauros outspeeds unless Sand/Rapid Spin while Nihilego and Skarm get mauled by normal Tauros moves. Not even Tangrowth wants to switch in as non AV sets will get 2HKO by Fire Blast and AV sets. So my opponent is obviously quite Celesteela and Bulu weak but that said, Tauros does snag an important KO by killing Excadrill and poses a threat for the whole game as Nihilego cannot revenge kill it.

I support Tauros to C+.

 

[Hilomilo]

Update coming in a few days! In the meantime this thread will be closed.

 

[Hilomilo]

Here's the first half of our update! Part 2 will be here either tomorrow or later today if I write everything up quickly. Enjoy!

New Placements
added to S: Excadrill has quickly established itself as one of the tier’s best and most used Pokemon. It offers incredible utility between its fantastic typing, functioning as both a top notch spinner and form of hazard removal, and the strong offensive pressure it can apply. Between sweeping, defensive, and lead sets, it can accomplish many different roles to an admirable level of consistency, which leaves S rank as the best reflection of its amazing immediate utility and threat level.

added to A+: Slowking has unsurprisingly emerged as a defensive cornerstone of the metagame. Its typing gives it great synergy with other defensive staples like Skarmory and Amoonguss, though Teleport also gives it the means to excellently enable threatening breakers like Conkeldurr. Slowking’s consistency has opened up places for it on many successful structures, ultimately elevating it to clear staple status.

added to A: Hydreigon possesses one of the metagame’s finest offensive presences, but can additionally deliver on the promises of its defensive utility and surprising set versatility. Nasty Plot, Choice Scarf, and Roost + 3 attacks have all helped it stand as a great addition to the tier, though it can also be kept in check by relevant foes like Conkeldurr, AV Azumarill, and Primarina.

added to A: Despite the early skepticism surrounding Mandibuzz, it has grown into a highly important defensive pick, checking the likes of Aegislash, Excadrill, and Zygarde. Its utility movepool and synergy with other strong walls are both incredible, justifying its high-tier reputation in spite of its shortcomings.

added to A: Skarmory is yet another super strong defensive pick right now, offering a ton between its typing, recovery, and excellent utility movepool. It’s developed into the tier’s strongest spiker, finding several opportunities to do its job thanks to strong matchups against the likes of Excadrill, Lycanroc, Roserade, and even Conkeldurr.

added to B+: Swampert is a super solid rocker right now, offering strong bulk and typing in addition to neat utility moves in Flip Turn and Yawn. Although it can be overwhelmed due to its lack of recovery, Swampert is a capable check to Pokemon like Excadrill and Jirachi, can force trades with many physical attackers, and can be deceptively difficult to pivot around by virtue of its support movepool.

Rises
from A+ to S: Kommo-o has become a commanding presence of the tier, offering immense threat level and utility alike with its typing, incredible set versatility, and ability to take advantage of Pokemon like Aegislash, Roserade, and Zarude. As Lilburr wrote in the current suspect thread, Kommo-o is “simultaneously our best Swords Dance user, one of our best Dragon Dance users, our only Clangorous Soul user, a great defensive Pokemon and more all in one deceptively bulky package.” Its versatility opens up multiple doors for it to be a dominant, highly consistent Pokemon in most scenarios, which ultimately makes an S ranking the best reflection of its hold over the tier.

from A- to A+: Azumarill has massively improved to the point that it’s once again a top-tier presence in the meta. It stands as a powerful offensive check to foes like Conkeldurr, Excadrill, and Hydreigon, while the increased usage of AV sets has expanded upon its versatility, consistency, and current applications.

from A- to A+: Thundurus-T has taken the metagame by storm recently, emerging as an excellent offensive pivot in the absence of its Incarnate form. Its ridiculous power and coverage have also allowed its NP set to absolutely thrive in most matchups, especially with Latias now gone, mandating a pretty crucial trade in most cases just to take it down.

from A- to A: Galarian Moltres has seen more general usage lately, which has opened up a clear opportunity for it to carve a larger place in the tier. With Nasty Plot, it is among the tier’s most centralizing sweepers, utilizing its great bulk and matchups against foes like Slowking/Mandibuzz/Zarude to garner setup opportunities. While not as defensively potent as Mandibuzz, Goltres’s general threat level has increased enough to warrant a rise.

from B to A: Tapu Bulu sees a huge rise on account of the massive surge it’s seen this last month. Grassy Terrain has developed into an excellent means of support for many Pokemon, better enabling the likes of Conkeldurr, Swampert, and Aegislash to perform their roles. However, Bulu’s own offensive prowess has also massively improved, with its SD + 3 attacks proving deceptively hard for Pokemon like Skarmory and Mandibuzz to consistently check, additionally finding good setup opportunities against the likes of Slowking and Azumarill.

from B- to A: Conkeldurr is another Pokemon that has surged massively from its previously mediocre state. While Buzzwole leaving the tier opened up Conk’s opportunities, it also massively appreciated the inception of many defensive picks this last tier shift, largely bringing the slower teams it preys on into focus. Partners like Slowking and Tapu Bulu being great is also highly favorable to Conkeldurr, ultimately allowing it to harness its devastating offensive potential more than ever before this generation.

from B+ to A-: The meta has grown kinder to Kantonian Moltres, its defensive perks letting it check popular foes like Excadrill, Skarmory, Aegislash, and the Regen Grass-types. Many of the previous metagame factors that hindered it, including Nihilego, Keldeo, and rain teams, have also taken notable hits that have thus given it more opportunities.

from B+ to A-: Zydog has been slowly picking up for a while now, and is now consistent enough in the wallbreaking prowess it offers to break into the A ranks. Its Speed tier is ultra important with Hydreigon/Mienshao/Thundurus all being important metagame components, while it also has fair means of bypassing checks like Mandibuzz and Tangrowth.

from B- to B: Chandelure largely appreciates the metagame slowing down, opening up more chances for it to threaten defensive builds that feature the likes of Slowking/regen Grass-types/Skarmory. The presences of Nihilego/Rotom-W/Rain/Keldeo have all generally decreased as well, which pretty significantly increases Chandy’s breathing room.

from B- to B: Toxtricity has notably improved as the metagame has slowed down and foes it can threaten, including Slowking, Mandibuzz, and Skarmory, have entered the fray. It still suffers opportunity cost as an Electric-type with Thundurus-T being so great, but can definitely hold its own with its unique and potent wallbreaking tools.

from B- to B: Diancie is a pretty strong pick for a rocker lately, its bulk and typing allowing it to handle foes like Thundurus-T, Galarian Moltres, and Kommo-o fairly well. It additionally pairs well with the rising Tapu Bulu and can prove rather flexible thanks to its colorful supportive toolkit.

from UR to B: Heracross has established a recent place for itself in the tier following the departure of Buzzwole. The metagame is slow, which is clearly favorable to Heracross, but also has easy means of supporting it with trending options like Slowking and Tapu Bulu. Heracross’s Speed and STAB Megahorn have proven highly beneficial to it over its main competitor in Conkeldurr, and with more usage it could rise further in the future.

from UR to B: Galarian Weezing is another Pokemon to have recently cemented a decent spot for itself in the tier, performing many valuable defensive tasks at once. It stands as a capable Conkeldurr check while additionally burdening foes like Mienshao/Bulu/Azumarill/defensive Pokemon with Regenerator. Moreover, its utility movepool yields solid hazard setting capabilities with Toxic Spikes.

from C+ to B-: Although Sylveon still has its pitfalls, its defensive utility has marginally improved with Hydreigon now in the tier, Kommo-o being excellent, and foes like Nihilego becoming worse. Other options for Fairy-types still give it decent opportunity cost, but its individual merits are enough to break back into the B ranks.

from UR to C+: Golisopod offers a very unique blend of defensive attributes that make it a worthwhile pick. It’s a solid revenge killer with First Impression, check to Pokemon like Excadrill and Mienshao, and progress maker with its coveted access to Spikes. Although it could still use some more explanation, it certainly has a niche worth a rank.

from UR to C: With Excadrill in the tier, sand teams now have a minimal but genuine place, which warrants a spot low in the rankings for Gigalith. In addition to offering Excadrill its necessary support, Gigalith can also manage to function as a decent special wall thanks to its sand-enhanced bulk and utility with Stealth Rock.

from UR to C: Magneton has a place on sand teams, warranting a spot alongside Gigalith in the ranks. Its matchups against Skarmory and Celesteela allow it to be very enabling for Excadrill, which can more easily sweep in the sand without them around.

from UR to C: Politoed obviously has more of a niche now that Pelipper is gone. Although far worse, it can still provide the necessary means to Kingdra to sweep, but because rain has grown into a more niche play style (between Barraskewda’s departure and Kingdra hating Slowking’s drop), C is as far as Politoed will go for now.

 

[Hilomilo]

Here are this update's drops! Enjoy~
Drops
from A+ to A: Celesteela now has to put up with the emergence of a natural competitor in Skarmory, though it is also burdened by the current presences of Slowking and Thundurus-T and the decreased urgency of checking foes like Roserade and Nihilego. Leech Seed and checking Excadrill still give it some merit, though is generally much easier to overwhelm these days.

from A+ to A: Krookodile took a fairly big hit with the recent shifts, now suffering far more opportunity cost in a metagame run by Excadrill. The introduction of two strong Dark-types, the surges of Bulu and Azumarill, and Kommo-o’s excellence have all also eaten into its recent ease of use, though its STAB Knock Off is still an amazing progress-making tool.

from A+ to A-: Rotom-W was hurt a lot by the inception of Excadrill, which can undermine Levitate’s utility with Mold Breaker. Functioning as Ground immunity that loses to the tier’s best Ground-type is one thing, though it increasingly struggles to offer the same utility as other popular Water-types, including Slowking, Primarina, and Azumarill.

from A+ to B: Keldeo has suffered an extreme drop-off following this latest batch of tier shifts. Slowking massively undermines its progress-making potential, though Keldeo additionally dislikes the presences of Tapu Bulu, AV Azumarill, and Primarina. It still offers a strong mix of offensive tools, but is now way less capable of harnessing their full potential.

from A to A-: Lycanroc-D lacks appreciation for a few forming meta trends, including Skarmory’s presence, the rise of powerful priority users in Conkeldurr and Azumarill, and the increased amount of potent defensive Pokemon hurting its consistency in picking up KOs. Its utterly lacking defensive utility, as usual, is also quite easy to exploit.

from A to A-: Nihilego can’t force the same progress it once did with Excadrill and Slowking being hugely important components of the tier. Although its utility is still solid, its splashability and consistency have both taken a hit.

from A to A-: Galarian Slowbro suffers from naturally increased opportunity cost with Slowking now in the tier. Hydreigon and Excadrill being new drops, and great ones at that, has also eaten into its value as of late.

from A to B+: Roserade is a far cry from its former staple status in the metagame, having lost a great partner in Buzzwole and struggling to either combat Skarmory or compete with it as a spiker. It also opens up more teambuilding holes than previously as of late, especially considering the rises of Excadrill/Tapu Bulu/Conkeldurr and its inability to pivot into them as a Grass-type.

from A- to B+: Necrozma’s offensive consistency has been largely decreased by the inceptions of Mandibuzz/Skarmory/Slowking/Hydreigon. Each of its sets now require fairly considerable support.

from A- to B+: Rhyperior doesn’t check a particularly large number of Pokemon right now, often relying on trades to establish its defensive utility in matches. Its ease of use has also dropped as Excadrill has entered the tier, supplying it with stiff competition.

from A- to B+: Rotom-H is generally solid but has taken enough overall hits lately to warrant a drop. Excadrill’s presence really undermines Heattom’s typical ability to act as a Ground-type immunity, though it also lacks appreciation for the important places that Azumarill/Kommo-o/Hydreigon all have at the moment.

from B+ to B: Entei is another Pokemon that is still generally good, but has suffered overall poor responses to recent trends. Something something Slowking Hydreigon Primarina… you get it. Rocks-weak breakers are also just bleh sometimes.

from B+ to B: Starmie largely hates the drop of Slowking into the tier, intensifying its already existing 4mss, though Keldeo’s drop-off and the recent surge in Water-type competitors also does it no favors.

from B to B-: Mantine is generally too difficult to justify over Slowking at this rate to keep its spot in B. Its tools just don’t have a lot of particular value compared to its competition right now, especially with both Keldeo and rain falling off a lot lately.

from B- to C+: Although Metagross is still a unique pick that can work in some scenarios, most of its sets tend to struggle against virtually every new drop we received this month, complicating its splashability in a metagame already supplied with stiff competition for its typing slot.

from B- to C+: Polteageist’s viability generally revolves around how prepared the metagame is for it, and with Mandibuzz and Hydreigon making excellent new additions to the tier and Galarian Moltres additionally improving lately, it has become a greater matchup fish than ever.

from B- to C: With rain obviously taking a nosedive in the post-Pelipper and Barraskewda metagame, Kingdra only makes sense to rest in C to reflect its fringe viability.

from C+ to C: Regieleki is barely holding onto viability these days between the surge in Electric-type immunities in Excadrill/Swampert/Thundurus-T, but also due to the serious opportunity cost it has as an Electric-type at this rate.

from C+ to UR: Omastar is way harder to fit now that rain has taken such a huge hit to its viability. Because it was a niche pick as is on an archetype that is now super niche, it should lose its spot in the rankings altogether.

from C to UR: These mons are all bad so they’re each only getting a single sentence to explain their unranking. Guzzlord has lost a lot of its utility with Hydreigon now here. Haxorus suffers way too much competition as a physical Dragon-type without enough distinguishable features of its own. Heliolisk only had a niche with Pelipper rain in the tier. Incineroar doesn’t particularly check a lot and lacks the same defensive qualities that better Dark- and Fire-types have. Jellicent is too outclassed by other Water-types, especially Slowking now. Klefki’s niche as a Steel-type spiker is no more with Skarmory now here and being way better at that. Lucario is potent but lacks a particular niche or claim over other Fighting-types and setup sweepers. Pyukumuku hasn’t really shown up on the only builds it would fit on in stall. Raikou is outclassed as both a pivot and sweeper by other Electric-types. Regidrago is a huge matchup fish. Despite access to rocks, Shuckle doesn’t currently offer enough over Ribombee as a webs setter to keep a spot in the ranks.

Thanks for the great discussion we saw leading up to this update! This thread is now open for discussion again. Due to the still new-ish nature of the metagame, I'm going to hold off from discussion points this time because there are a lot of things to potentially talk about. Be kind and happy posting!

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

B -> A-

some of its issues still remain but I believe with the departure of latias is has gotten much better, tho azumarill, primarina, tapu bulu, and tenta gaining even more popularity hurts, I believe that it is A- worthy and that bad to be in B.

B+ -> A-

I believe it got much better in this shift as it can abuse skarmory with scald, knock, and rapid spin. Appreciates latias leaving, to and appreciates the rise of prim, azumarill, mandibuzz, and skarmory as it abuses them easily and can get spins off freely against pokemon like skarmory, celesteela, mandibuzz, and def kommo-o.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Personal VR of S rank to A rank:

S Rank

Aegislash - nearly unwallable, abuses Chansey, many scary sets but makes you weak vs some Fairies/Psychic since you can’t counter Hatterene for example


Chansey - stall is exceptional and Chansey is one of the reasons why, very easy to plop on. I don’t factor the Teleport sets as much recently with Slowking as an alternative

Kommo-o - too many great sets, SD is easier to build with than Clang in my opinion and despite thinking that Aegislash is S rank, I'd run Scale Shot + CC + Poison Jab and you hit everything in the tier bar Aegislash for good damage.

A+ Rank

Azumarill - AV sets are great, but the priority and typing just eases a lot of building, Belly Drum sets still sweep at a moment's notice

Primarina - Plop him on many offensive teams to glue the team, especially if it’s Rest Primarina. The Bug/Dark resist are essential in differentiating with Slowking.

Thundurus-T - The best Defogger in the tier, 101 base Speed is suddenly very good in this tier for some reason post Latias although it's clear people have wrongly forgot about Keldeo in my view. NP and Knock Off pivots are both excellent, especially given we have Zarude and Mienshao as partners

Conkeldurr - An powerhouse which makes Weezing Galarian viable. Mienshao I find actually does better vs hard stall because of Regenerator but Conkeldurr has surprisingly good match ups vs bulky offenses that rely on defensive Primarina, Excadrill and Zarude which Conkeldurr can get openings on or break through easily


Excadrill - Very strong pick in utility and compression, needs a bit more speed or power or coverage to be S tier though. Inability to beat Thundy or Aegislash reliably are key to staying out of S.

Tapu Bulu - The ability to break most Skarmory relatively easily with Swords Dance Close Combat over time is great, Regenerator grasses are far from their zenith and you can still kill them if you really want. Many other sets, Adamant Scarf hits the necessary faster than Mienshao/Thundy/Zygarde 10% speed tier - surprise cleaner and can revenge a few mons that don't boost speed.

A Rank

Amoonguss - good to beat Mienshao but most other trends are against it, it really is an awful Thundy response, Keldeo rare and also running CM frequently

Celesteela - Defensive sets give you very good MUs vs many HO teams whereas Skarmory would fail (such as helping vs Goltres), Automize sets are frequently one Air Slash flinch from sweeping whole teams

Hydreigon - I think this is still underexplored, there is no consensus on standard good sets but I think Roost uturn STABS has potential, along side Nasty Plot. Fairies are the obvious issue.

Jirachi - Very good mon, Sub Toxic may be slightly slept on, it has ways to 2HKO Excadrill fairly easily

Mamoswine - Extreme power, can almost always force work in non Skarmory match ups and it's not helpless vs Skarmory either as Icicle Crash does plenty. Boots and Life Orb both are common and good and Ice Shard's utility is very high right now. Slow and creates some openings mainly because of the Fighting and Water weakness though.

Mienshao- Incredibly effective against stall teams because of power, coverage, and Regenerator (unless they have Amoong or Glowbro), obviously it's hard to build with but the tier has enough bulk to enable it (unless you go super duper offensive, I like to pair it with Slowking or Primarina which offer enough bulk usually to cover Mienshao).

Moltres-Galar - Hyper offense sets are key and their ability to tank a Tbolt from Thundy-T at 100% is also key, it's clearly competing with Thundy as the secondary face of HO (after Kommo-o)

Slowking - Teleport is very very good, bulk is very good, but there are weaknesses to Bug and Dark which make it harder to fit with compared to the Water Fairies.

Tangrowth - can afford to be fully physically defensive these days as Keldeo is still rare and we have other ways to deal with Primarina (well kind of)

Umbreon - very great utility mon, perhaps just as essential as Chansey on full stall considering it beats Excadrill, Mamoswine, DD Salamence and Gyarados so reliably plus has Wish to enable Weezing/Aegislash and a few other fat walls without good recovery. It creates huge openings of course but you can stop them with Toxic and teammates.

Zarude - the cornerstone of many Volt Turn teams, there is some difficulty in being a grass type that loses to our top Water Pokemon (Primarina, Azumarill, Keldeo) or at least cannot switch into them, but if you can get rid of Rocky Helmets, Zarude's offensive capability often outlasts Skarmory and Regen Grasses because it's paired in super strong cores.

 

[cheru]

Hey all! Now that almost every Viability Rankings have been filled with Tier list posts, I thought I might as well make one to stir some engagement before BDSP releases with my own takes.
https://tiermaker.com/create/ss-uu-viability-rankings-1346688 (please let me know if i missed any!)

--------------------------------

to a+
Tangrowth has once again shifted back to physically defensive sets with Keldeo falling off, more effectively checking Zydog and Excadrill due to its Grass resistance over Amoonguss. It also checks Mienshao and Conkeldurr very well and can still spam Knock Off to its heart's content.

to a
Zydog is really amazing in this meta, since it has the unique qualities of being a Ground-type wallbreaker that doesn't care about Tapu Bulu's Grassy Terrain or Flying-types such as Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Moltres, and Celesteela. This constricts the teambuilder since only a few Pokemon can truly check decently, which can all be dealt with through brute force. Tangrowth doesn't like taking Outrage with hazards up, Tapu Bulu gets 2HKOed by Iron Tail or Sludge Wave, and Zarude gets OHKOed by Skitter Smack. Its speed is also excellent, outspeeding most already fast Pokemon such as Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Nihilego, and matching Azelf. Extreme Speed is also good for picking off faster weakened Pokemon such as Agility Galarian Moltres and Dragon Dance Salamence. Zydog’s influence on the teambuilder and effectiveness in battle warrants it an A rank in the VR.

to a
Mamoswine is a really fun pick at the moment. Heavy-Duty Boots are really good, as it can pivot around without constantly worrying about chipping itself down from entry hazards and Life Orb recoil, while still being mighty strong. Ice Shard is always good for faster threats such as Salamence and Zydog. Its STAB is only resisted by Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Golisopod, and none of them like taking Knock Off. It is also able to compress Stealth Rock well due to it forcing so many switches.

to a-
The leader of the ban Lati club has finally gotten its wish and looks to join the A ranks once again. Sub+CM sets are really able to take advantage of Slowking not running the niche Psyshock just to check it. Its Speed tier is still very good getting the jump on Thundurus, Nihilego, and Zarude. It could likely rise further in the future but i think A- is fair for now.

to b+
Nihilego is really hard to justify in a metagame where Excadrill and Slowking dominating the meta even if they get Knocked Off. Stealth Rock utility sets are still ok but it isn't as splashable as it once was.

to b-
Crobat has really good attributes in UU, mainly its blazing Speed. It’s utility is a great boon to it, running many options such as Taunt, Defog, U-turn. Crobat also doesn’t even need to invest fully into speed, allowing it to run more bulk to already complement being a decent check to Conkeldurr, Tapu Bulu, and Mienshao.

to c+
Sun appreciates being the best available weather right now with both Pelipper and Alolan Ninetales in OU, with Politoed, Gigalith, and other hail setters being more on the niche side. Torkoal's utility in Rapid Spin, Toxic, Yawn, and Lava Plume. Venusaur being able to outspeed most Choice Scarf users and having +2 Special Attack can be devastating for any team. Weather Ball, Giga Drain, and either Sludge Bomb or Earth Power makes it very difficult to play around with defensive cores such as Slowking, Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Amoonguss.

to c
Mystras Leoxses made a good post so I second their nomination.

to c
Trick Room is a really fun playstyle, with Alolan Marowak as the main man. Under Trick Room, it is very difficult to check, as it can fire off strong Poltergeists (granted you hit) and recoil-less Flare Blitzes. Even the few Pokemon that resist both STAB attacks such as Hydreigon get 2HKOed by Flare Blitz. Healing Wish/Lunar Dance support from alleviate its issues of being worn down by hazards, as it has the natural bulk, especially when invested to take a few hits before switching out and healing itself back. Cresselia’s huge bulk lets it set up Trick Room constantly. Porygon2 is probably the most consistent setter, as it can freely pivot out into the sweepers with Teleport while having Recover to help set it up throughout each game.

to ur
Unfortunately, rain simply isn’t viable right now. Politoed is a really bad weather setter that doesn’t have U-turn to pivot into teammates, reliable recovery in Roost, or STAB Hurricane to threaten Grass-types like Pelipper does. This sadly means that Kingdra has to go as well.

to ur
The more I talk about this, the worse I feel it is. SubTect sets with Toxic Spikes support are flat out unviable with Excadrill in the tier and it can't find much of a niche with Choice Specs. At least it has Galarian Zapdos is saving its ass in OU so we don't have to deal with it anymore on ladder.

to ur
Psychic Terrain was already a very nice playstyle to begin with, and most of Indeedee-F's teammates such as Polteageist, Necrozma, and Nihilego have gotten significantly worse with the shifts. Indeedee-F’s frailty and competition with Hatterene which can be flexed with other playstyles more effectively.

 

[be_woke]

This is my first time posting in the viability rankings at all so apologies if I mess something up

to C:
​

So after a ladder session I faced a fair amount of sun. All of them were a variation of Venukoal + Darmanitan so I was wondering where they were ranked in here. Then I noticed Darm isn't ranked at all?

I feel like this is pretty strange considering Darm seems to be a staple option on sun nowadays. It makes sense, it hits hard with its STAB Flare Blitz in sun whilst also having access to U-Turn to gain momentum on the bulky Waters trying to switch in. Both Scarf and Band are valid options on sun with Scarf being more preferred so you still have some speed control when sun isn't up. Compared to Entei it loses out on the 100 speed tier and E-Speed but it more than makes up for it with how hard it hits even without a Band and how it abuses teams that have Slowking as their sole Fire resist.

It has its fair share of weaknesses of course. Its STAB attack is gonna leave it extremely chipped every time it uses it. Just hitting the common defensive grasses in the tier will set you back like 50% (Rocky Helmet + Blitz recoil isn't pretty). And pairing that with a Stealth Rock weakness means it won't be on the field for long especially when you consider its bulk which leaves it easily revenged either by priority attacks or faster scarfers.

But sun teams are trying to win fast and Darm fits the bill of a hard hitting nuke whilst still giving some utility through U-Turn and speed control with Scarf. I'm not asking for much here but for it to be ranked alongside the Venukoal sun core. If pokemon like Gigalith and Magneton are able to be ranked for their niche on sand I feel Darm should be ranked too especially when it is a valid pick on the arguably better weather archetype.

PS: I know I haven't linked any replays but I feel like sun is prominent enough that people will have seen Venukoal + Darm on the ladder. I made this nomination mostly because I felt like Darm was overlooked in discussion so I just brought it to light. If this was wrong then I apologize.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Scyther nom from UR -> B

(I made a Research Week post about this in more detail)

Scyther (with Choice Band) very much has viability in the current UU metagame. A fast banded breaker like Scyther with access to STAB U-Turn and a super strong DWB just does not exist atm. After using it a ton, and realizing that it OHKOs Nidoking, Gyarados, Primarina, and many others with banded DWB that's not even SE, I think it's time to take a closer look at it for viability purposes. Here are some calcs compared to other things in the tier:

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 258-306 (70.8 - 84%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 320-378 (96.6 - 114.1%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 246-290 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zarude U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 134-158 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Here are the same replays I posted for Research Week for this:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1454170078 - Scyther continuously causes havoc by U-Turning when Tangrowth is out, and Swampert lures it in with Flip Turn.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1454179139 - Scyther OHKOs Ninetales with DWB, and also KO's a weakend Venusaur with U-Turn.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1454197315 - Scyther actually OHKOs Moltres with DWB, nice "check". Also would have won if it didn't miss DWB on Gyarados but it happens.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1454217024 - Scyther actually somehow does NOT OHKO fully defensive Kommo-o with banded DWB (barely), otherwise it would have just swept this entire team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1453369674 - Scyther cleans by OHKOing Nidoking and Gyarados, and also finishing off Thundurus.

It needs Magneton to help take out Skarm/Steela (people have already nommed Magneton and I agree that it should be C rank), and it needs removal, but as long as you have those tools you can go nuts with banded Scyther. It's clearly worth a rank, and I think it's strong enough for a B although that may be an overreach and something like C+ or B- may be more acceptable.

 

[Monky25]

It’s been about 3 weeks since I made my last post, and with the kommo-o suspect over, majors coming to a close, and UU snake having 2 weeks under its belt I figured now would be a good idea to give some nominations.
Rises

to A-: Initially I put Swampert in B+ as a conservative ranking, it had potential to go higher but the lack of recovery and its ok-ish matchups against most of the tier made me a bit skeptical. However, after giving it more time Swampert has easily distinguished itself as a solid rocker and great metagame presence to prompt me to raise it to A-. Flip turn has been nothing short of an amazing buff for it, pairing well with yawn to constantly force switches and keep momentum against the opposing team. It checks common threats like excadrill, celesteela, krook, jirachi, and even thundurus by pivoting into an electric attack and pivoting out into a revenge killer or eating a +2 focus blast courtesy of its high natural bulk. It's gotten solid use in UU Snake, having 6 uses in week 1 and 5 in week 2, showing its potency in the meta. Even choice band sets have been seen a bit, showing room for exploration on swampert. Therefore, a rise to the A ranks should happen to show the strengths of swampert in the metagame.

to A+: Skarmory is arguably the best defensive Pokemon in the tier for me right now. It does so much between laying spikes and beating tons of dangerous stuff like excadrill, zarude, gyarados, lycanroc, and more. It has amazing UU snake usage, having 8 uses in week 1 as the most used Pokemon and 6 in week 2. It most definitely should be up there in A+ to reflect the potency and utility it provides, and even though it has shortcomings they can easily be patched up.

to A: While I don’t agree with the idea of Chansey being S rank of all things (hazard vulnerability, strong fighters, knock issues), I can’t deny Chansey is still a very good Pokemon. It does what it does best- be a fat bitch that sits and eats hits. It checks top threats like hydreigon, thundurus, and prim, which are pokemon that can very easily tear through bulkier teams. It forms the infamous skarmbliss core (but with chansey) and is very consistent as a pivot. It was an even 6-6 vote between raising it and keeping it in A- last time, but now I do think Chansey has demonstrated enough potency to rise to A.

to A+: Zarude is just great, big dada always finds a way. Zarude has been a staple of the common pivot heavy offensive builds seen recently, checking so many dangerous threats like exca, azu, prim, aegi, and thundurus. It’s gotten tons of usage these last 2 weeks in snake and just offers a lot to the team with its moveset and typing. One of the best mons in the tier that should be in A+.

to A-: A somewhat hot take but Tentacruel is actually quite good at the moment. Way back when I still was in majors I built a team that was well prepared to take on all the top threats, only to lose to a tentacruel badly. That's the sleeper pick it is rn. Scald + sludge + knock is a fucking bitch to switch into, and tenta can take on plenty staples like prim, azu, celesteela, mandibuzz, and skarm with these traits. Tenta also has the luxury of being one of the better hazard control users thanks to rapid spin. Imo rapid spinners >>>defoggers in general because I feel they can run the move and not feel like they want something else. For example, excadrill can use Rapid Spin to boost its speed and now revenge kill stuff like mienshao and hydreigon in addition to clearing hazards. These benefits apply to tenta as well. Tentacruel also pairs amazingly with bulu to patch up its lack of recovery. It's always going to be held back but I do believe it is certainly good enough to rise to A-. Don’t sleep on tentacruel.

to B+: While I am not crazy about Keldeo I do think B was too far of a drop. I really like subCM sets a lot, it can take advantage of most slowking not running psyshock and take down unprepared teams. People forgot this has an amazing speed tier, outpacing the likes of thundurus, mienshao, and hydreigon. It also smashes skarm+chansey pretty easily. It's not that useless against azu and bulu either since scald burns take them out. Pairs well with stuff like Bulu to fix the recovery of substitute. I def rate keldeo a lot higher than the B ranks because of this set and should certainly rise to B+.

to C+: Sun has recently grown in usage a fair bit, having some SCL and UU snake usage in addition to me seeing a bunch of sun teams on the high ladder. Rain, hail, and kommo-o being done def helps the viability of the playstyle, which in general has found its footing lately in terms of team options. Venusaur absolutely cleans unprepared teams and I hate playing against it. Darmanitan has near staple status as well, being the go-to speed control and physical breaker on the team. Other Pokémon like skarmory, swampert, chansey, and hatterene have gotten solid use on the archetype, finally letting it have an identity for the first time since Victini was still in the tier. In a crowded C rank, sun stands above them all in terms of viability and should rise to C+.

to C: Now I’m not saying we immediately should rank Trick Room at C, but realistically if we’re keeping even nicher and worse playstyles like rain, sand, and psychic terrain as well as various shitmons like Mimikyu, sneasel, and regieleki ranked, then I do think in the grand scheme of things trick room does have some merit getting a rank. It’s a fishy hyper offense archetype, but it’s gotten some use in tours (at least more than these playstyles) so I do think in fairness it should get ranked somewhere to reflect it being niche but viable, and since these mons are guaranteed staples they should be up here.
Drops

to A+: I was never big on the Excadrill to S train, though I do admit I undersold it a bit. Exca is still an amazing utility Pokemon, comparable to krookodile to previous metas. An electric type immunity, steel-type, spin, rocks, exca can compress so much into one slot and help its team, so it should be A+ at the minimum. However, it doesn't really stand out as an S rank with the tons of issues it faces. Waters like azu and prim and grasses like amoong, tang, and zarude are in abundance, not to mention plenty of other checks like steela, skarm, moltres, and mienshao are popular, It also lets in conk which can be very troublesome for teams considering conk is, you know, conk. It is still a great Pokemon, but to say it is a) S rank and therefore b) the best Pokemon in the tier, is just incorrect. A+ clearly encompasses Excadrill’s viability much better.

to A: I 100% saw this coming, we def overranked azumarill. It suffers from the same issues it did in the past- being awkward as fuck to build with and facing deep competition from prim who has much greater defensive utility. The need to use it in general has declined a bit with kommo-o being banned now. It’s still a dangerous threat and AV sets have some solid utility checking goltres and thundurus in a pinch, but right now it's closer to high A rather than A+ so it should drop a subrank.

to A-: I don't really have much to say other than Mandibuzz just doesn’t feel like A. With the exception of Krookodile, which should drop anyway, the rest of A just feels so much better than mandi now. It still checks a few things like zarude, exca, aegi, jirachi, and hydreigon, but most of these can circumvent mandi since they have a pivoting move or commonly run toxic. It’s still a fine check to most of these and the dragon dancers, but Mandi feels more top of A- rather than low A rank and thus it should drop.

to B+: Nothing much has changed for krook, I just think A wasn’t a big enough drop and it should go down to B+ even. It isn’t bad, it just faces so much competition from exca that it hasn’t justified itself a place on many teams. Exca’s steel-typing, access to spin, and ability to hit hard without attack investment really give krook trouble. There are teams where Krook’s dark-typing, intimidate, and higher speed tier allowing it to beat opposing Excadrill work, but for now Krook shouldn’t be anywhere close to A.

to B+: Lycanroc is good against hyper offense… and falls flat against everything else. Lycan is just too frail and has terrible longevity to be good as of now. The defensive power creep with skarmory and slowking dropping makes lycanroc really hard to justify over breakers that don't kill themselves by attacking. With pretty bad 4MSS and being a bitch to build around in general, lycanroc just isn’t enough of a threat for me to believe it belongs in the A ranks. Hyper offense also has declined a pair bit by losing the most consistent sweeper in kommo-o. Slotting other mons in isn’t a trouble but nothing can really replicate the danger it had.

to B+: Glowbro just feels very mid despite its great qualities as a quad resist to fighting. CM sets just suck right now with the plethora of powerful attackers that kill it before setting up. AV hasn’t seen much use either, being tough to justify over other specially defensive pivots like slowking and chansey. Not good enough to be in the A ranks imo, B+ suits its viability much better.

to B: Condensing these drops into 1 section. As swampert rises, seismitoad falls. It's not bad or anything, but it’s virtually unseen as of now and not something I consider a part of the metagame, which is anything B+ or higher on the VR imo. Washer isn't that great so water absorb isn't too helpful, and pivoting into slowking is a positive but there are plenty of Pokemon who can do that. A drop to B shows how it is still decent, but not a major part of the tier like the other B+ mons are. Rhyperior similarly has gotten no use over other rockers like swampert, nihilego, and excadrill. No point keeping this old relic in B+ as of now, B fits better.

to UR: Cleaning up the VR a bit I don’t believe any of these are worth keeping ranked as of now. Metagross just hasn’t justified itself over the other steels we have. Celesteela and skarmory are just very fat and wall a bunch of shit on the special and physical end respectively. Excadrill is the amazing utility mon that also compresses electric immunity. Jirachi is a good scarfer and has broken healing wish, u-turn, and rocks all in a set. Aegislash is still a very powerful threat that can muscle through a lot of defensive counterplay between toxic damage and shadow ball chip. I just don’t see any point to metagross, it's certainly usable but doesn't have enough usage to show it has a place in the tier, thus giving it no reason to stay on the VR. Same with mimikyu, most dragons are gone so it has less of a justification on hyper offense teams over mons that can actually break physical walls like skarm and tang. Again certainly usable but doesn't really exist in the metagame to be considered viable. Sneasel is a fun breaker, but for the same reason we didn't rank tauros and porygon-z it really just comes down to using sneasel mostly because you want to and it works rather than it being a part of the tier that gets genuine usage.

And lastly I do want to talk about the B ranks for a bit. Right now I think the B rank is kinda fucked, there’s like 20 pokemon that could fit under the classification of B. As a VR member I definitely would want to see more discussion on changes there, particularly if some stuff in B can go down further to B-. The lower end B stuff could go down to B-, where then the lower end B- stuff like mantine, obstagoon, and maybe crawdaunt could drop to C+. I get most don’t really care for a somewhat unimportant part of the VR but I still do think it should be maintained to an acceptable quality and want to hear other thoughts there.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

B+ -> B

It just does not do much... it has no reliable recovery, it competes with primarina as a CM sweeper, a bulky fairy type who can check hydreigon, noivern, and abuse bulky pokemon such as tang and umbreon. With the rise of steel types, kommo-o going, pokemon like slowking who can take advantage of it and its vulnerability to hazards make it a poor pokemon to sweep with CM, it is just not worth the slot that primarina does much better. I still believe it has a niche in B/B-, it is way harder to stop once it gets going due to magic bounce, and abuses skarmory like no tomorrow. BUt even that is still not worth the slot.....

 

[actuallybad]

B+ -> B/B-

It just does not do much... it has no reliable recovery, it competes with primarina as a CM sweeper, a bulky fairy type who can check hydreigon, noivern, and abuse bulky pokemon such as tang and umbreon. With the rise of steel types, kommo-o going, pokemon like slowking who can take advantage of it and its vulnerability to hazards make it a poor pokemon to sweep with CM, it is just not worth the slot that primarina does much better. I still believe it has a niche in B/B-, it is way harder to stop once it gets going due to magic bounce, and abuses skarmory like no tomorrow. BUt even that is still not worth the slot.....

While it may or may not be fair to drop Hatterene to B, this is an extremely unfair assessment of it. Being Fairy-type is about where the similarities between it and Primarina end; Primarina is much better defensively because of its better bulk and secondary typing, while Hatterene mainly differentiates itself with Magic Bounce. You're greatly understating how important it is that Hatterene can completely shut down Skarmory in a metagame where Skarmory spikes are, like, the number one non-cheese playstyle. Yes, Excadrill sets rocks through Magic Bounce, but teams with literally any other rocker are going to be rolling dice every time they want to set them (helps, too, that Excadrill is easily the most fragile steel). Steels don't affect it as much as you seem to imply, between their lack of recovery and Hatterene's Mystical Fire. I think it's important to remember that Hatterene is not a defensive Pokemon, and should not be treated as such.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

While it may or may not be fair to drop Hatterene to B, this is an extremely unfair assessment of it. Being Fairy-type is about where the similarities between it and Primarina end; Primarina is much better defensively because of its better bulk and secondary typing, while Hatterene mainly differentiates itself with Magic Bounce. You're greatly understating how important it is that Hatterene can completely shut down Skarmory in a metagame where Skarmory spikes are, like, the number one non-cheese playstyle. Yes, Excadrill sets rocks through Magic Bounce, but teams with literally any other rocker are going to be rolling dice every time they want to set them (helps, too, that Excadrill is easily the most fragile steel). Steels don't affect it as much as you seem to imply, between their lack of recovery and Hatterene's Mystical Fire. I think it's important to remember that Hatterene is not a defensive Pokemon, and should not be treated as such.

Hattrene is not switching into any of the rockers, and it cant consistently keep them off as one bad read is game over as most rockers can threaten it for up to 50+%. Skarmory is a spiker that gets shut down by hattrene but who are its most common partners.... lets see....

| Chansey 42.749% |
| Slowking 34.702% |
| Quagsire 22.024% |
| Mienshao 16.014% |
| Excadrill 14.874% |


These pokemon can absolutely wreck hattrene and abuse it as you can easily double switch to these pokemon as the switch is obvious. CM sets have a hard time to get going with slowking teleport into smth like LO mienshao, excadrill, nihilego, nidoking, conkeldurr are all pokemon that just wreck it, and its not strong to start off without a few boosts. The new set seems to be HW three attacks... which is we will see how it is it does not seem like a B+ pokemon, it seems as viable as entei and is the definition of a B pokemon which is can be good and has its flaws, or needs more support than the A tiers which it qualifies for

 

[pokemonisfun]

to B- rank

Set:

suck my maws (Regidrago) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Explosion

Pros and Cons of Regidrago
Pros: Extremely strong for a Scarfer, significantly higher damage output compared to Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump with 150 BP Dragon Energy, extremely good speed tier with Choice Scarf, beating out fast threats like Zygarde/Starmie/Noivern

Cons: Fairy types own it and despite being OK defensive typing, it really can't switch into much for fear of weakening Dragon Energy, cannot revenge most speed boosters easily

Replays of Regidrago

Some match ups you will get lucky and they won't bring a Fairy at all, much easier to do now post Kommo-o:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1460565934-xy0tc1qg1l2tyyoi5qrm0f9rv5qxzgrpw

Notice how Regidrago immediately can get a revenge kill and tie up the score on turn 23. And on turn 30, Regidrago gets a crucial KO on Nihilego, KOing a Nihilego at 75% with a special move is hard.

However, not all is lost even with a fairy:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1460571340-o0e62pyvb7is77n8kxullnqqt2x2vy0pw

That replay shows how Choice Band Crawdaunt is a nice partner for Regidrago since Jolly Crawdaunt can lure and destroy most Fairy types (luckily, Timid Primarina is rare these days as is Jolly Azumarill which Crawdaunt outspeeds anyways)

Another game with a fairy:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1460579461-hcxua42bzyn182675kn5rowy1tljs23pw

So Regidrago isn't great here but it still got a KO as it surprised a presumably Volt Switching Rotom and so Regidrago got it for surprise KO.

Tl; dr: Regidrago is a decent pick in the meta because it's very fast and extraordinarily strong, the Fairy problem can be addressed by teammates. and the main issue with it is that you have to go to lengths to keep it healthy for Dragon Energy.