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STABmons Viability Rankings Thread v3 ✿

Eevee General said:
Well now it just looks like a list of Pokemon thrown together arbitrarily.

At least the definitions gave some indication as to why a Pokemon was in S or A. Now, anyone new to STABmons and/or VR lists as a whole isn't gonna have a clue what's going on.

Give them a brief explanation imo.

And why is Snorlax so looooow. Belly Drum is so gooood.
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rank definitions are arbitrary and often wrong. the accurate "rank definitions" are simple. stuff in s is better than stuff in a+, stuff in a+ is better than stuff in a, etc. viability rankings are literally just charts comparing stuff made to look pretty and help people see current threats in the metagame, as well as get ideas of what to build around and what to cover while teambuilding. rank definitions dont help anyone, they just lead to shitty noms. i was strongly against rank definitions for ag and i am here too.


also dude, "No changes were made to the OP since we spent about a month discussing and making changes that fit everyone's opinion to the best as possible. It wasn't council inactivity, but rather activity behind a PM." makes no sense. don't post in the thread that stuff moved up or down if you aren't going to actually update the thread, i straight up dont understand your logic in the slightest. i wouldnt still be on this but from your last change Latios is still in a+, Weavile is still in a+, and Tornadus is still in a-. it doesnt take long to copy and paste lines around...
 
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Joshz said:
also dude, "No changes were made to the OP since we spent about a month discussing and making changes that fit everyone's opinion to the best as possible. It wasn't council inactivity, but rather activity behind a PM." makes no sense. don't post in the thread that stuff moved up or down if you aren't going to actually update the thread, i straight up dont understand your logic in the slightest. i wouldnt still be on this but from your last change Latios is still in a+, Weavile is still in a+, and Tornadus is still in a-. it doesnt take long to copy and paste lines around...
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Why are you quoting me when you say that? I never said that.
 
Joshz said:
also dude, "No changes were made to the OP since we spent about a month discussing and making changes that fit everyone's opinion to the best as possible. It wasn't council inactivity, but rather activity behind a PM." makes no sense. don't post in the thread that stuff moved up or down if you aren't going to actually update the thread, i straight up dont understand your logic in the slightest. i wouldnt still be on this but from your last change Latios is still in a+, Weavile is still in a+, and Tornadus is still in a-. it doesnt take long to copy and paste lines around...
Click to expand...

Because there was disagreement behind the scenes, I didn't make those specific changes. Sure, I could've updated or removed it, I've just forgotten to. So no, those didn't change because other people decided they weren't a good change, so I didn't. I'm a human, I make errors. No need to be rude about it.

Now can we please keep the passive-aggressiveness out of this thread and stick to actual VR changes...
 
With the A ranks sorted out to within ~5 pokemon, I've (probably preemptively) started looking at the B ranks, and a lot of them don't make any sense to me. Maybe by some freak accident I've just never encountered these in hundreds of games, but I also can't figure out why they're relevant. Hopefully someone who's used them can help me.

  • Mega-Gardevoir: I really don't understand this one. Pretty much all its checks (steels and physical attackers >100 speed) got better and all the playstyles it's good (really slow and fat) against got worse. Also Sylveon.
  • Alakazam: Gains Psystrike, I guess. But it isn't even that good in OU to begin with. Priority and Scarf TTar are everywhere. Maybe Sash is theoretically good against offense
  • Alomomola: If you're playing stall, you should probably be using quag or m-slowbro (and you still are going to get wrecked because stall is borderline impossible). I don't really understand why this is good or ranked at all.
  • Lucario: What does this even do? ESpeed/Priority is not a niche.
  • Suicune: See Alomomola
  • Togekiss (post Geo): Why is this still ranked?
  • Dragalge: Is this relevant to STAB at all? TSpikes is not a niche, and poison/dragon is awful typing. I guess it checks Keldeo, but it doesn't seem to do much else. Psystrike really hurts this too.
  • Gallade-Mega: This is just flat out bad. It's walled by slowbro and lando, gets wrecked by all the ubiquitous bird spam, and takes a mega slot.
  • Gastrodon: It's barely bulky enough for RU, what's it doing in STABmons? If we're listing random water immune pokemon as keldeo checks or something, then we should just put Jellicent down and scrap the rest (which is dumb, don't actually do this).
  • Mandibuzz: Is overcoat a niche? Parting shot seems decent, but the metagame is not very hospitable to bulky birds or dark types given the centralization around breaking Lando and the prevalence of fairies.
  • Seismitoad: See Gastrodon.


I also can't say I've seen Mamo, Pinsir, Mew, Mega-Man, Chandelure, Cobalion, or Hydreigon, but they make some minimal amount of sense to me.

Mega-Pidgeot, Snorlax, Yanmega, and Jolteon seem like they belong in B+. But these should probably be put on backburner.
 
Look, sorry for the double post but if no one else here wants to post then I guess I'll just continue on. I know that STABmons is going to RIP in Sept, so I'd like it to at least be in good shape on its way out.

I also don't really care at this point that it's not very good manners on these threads to post massive lists like this, but I'm basically talking to myself in terms of actually ranking things instead of the philosophy of VRs. I'm pretty depressed by how many changes are actually implemented, so I figured if I nommed 30 things, maybe 7 of them would actually happen.

Things in A+:
Weavile -> A
This has been discussed already
Latios -> A
This has been discussed already

Things in A:
Sylveon -> A+
Sure, it gets wrecked by steels, but it provides unmatched mixed wallbreaking and has good matchups against a lot of the tier. It's a great offensive check to Keldeo, Thundy, Weavile, Lopunny, Latios, TTar, and plenty of other stuff.

A-
Aerodactyl -> A+/A
Adamant Band is way better than A-. Nothing relevant walls it with rocks up. Only Lando, M-Bro, Garchomp, and Ferro can really do anything to it defensively, but they all get 2hko'd with rocks. Also it's fast as hell and resists normal. I honestly think this would be S if Head Smash didn't miss.

Clefable -> B
Get this shit off the VR. Sorry wishes, I don't care. It does NOT check Taunt Thundy. It flat out loses even if you double into it and Thundy doesn't just hit it or taunt it on the switch. Hell, it also has a good chance to lose to TWave Thundy. Basically no other special attackers even bother setting up, which makes its only niche useless. CM + MG Clefairy is flat out bad, since everything and their grandma can 2hko it. Sylveon is so much better it's ridiculous (if you want to talk about utility, unblockable spinning and heal bell is nothing to scoff at).

Serp -> A
Teams typically pack 1-2 checks to this, but it can sleep one of them and run coverage for the other. It has a sick speed tier right above Thundy, and dissuades people from clicking Defog.

Starmie -> B+
Hazard clearing is a dumb niche when there are like 5-10 new hazard clearers to play with. Keldeo and Heatran checks are pretty easy to come by too. 100 SpA just doesn't cut it either.

Torn-T -> A
This has been discussed already

TTar -> A
Probably the premier Thundy check for offensive teams alongside Sylveon. Struggles with Lando, Ferro, and Keldeo, but it can run coverage and Keldeo doesn't like to switch into anything.

Ursaring -> A/A+
This is the strongest fakespeeder in the tier. It doesn't take a mega slot, and ghosts don't check it between Play Rough and Guts for Sableye and a stiff breeze for Gengar. SD sweeps pretty easily.

B+
Gardevoir -> C+*
*See previous post

B
Alakazam -> B-*

Alomomola -> Unranked*

Jolteon -> B+
Excellent Thundy check, can generate free turns with electrify/sub 50/50s, and can just win outright late game if fakespeeders and scarfers are gone.

Mega Pidgeot -> B+
Probably the toughest pokemon to swtich into in the tier, although it certainly has its faults. Chansey, TTar, and Heatran are really the only things that can, and they can all just get slept which is scary. Boomburst and Hurricane hit stupidly hard. It can pivot with UTurn, or run a recovery move. Takes up a mega slot, which is unfortunate.

Togekiss -> Unranked*

B-
Dragalge -> Unranked*

Mega Gallade -> Unranked*

Gastrodon -> Unranked*

Mandibuzz -> Unranked*

Seismitoad -> Unranked*

Snorlax -> A-/B+
The only pokemon that can pull off BellySpeed besides Azumarill. A great way for bulky teams to pretend that they're fast. It's much better than Stoutland anyways, now that Scrappy is basically useless.

Yanmega -> B+
Sweeps EZ with just a bit of help. Unfortunately that help is pretty hard to ensure (remove fakespeed and rocks). TG + 3 Atks is a really scary set that can set up on things like Slowbro and Lando pretty easily.

C
Celebi -> B-
Seems a bit better than the rest of the pokemon down here, but I dont realy care if it moves or not.
Conkeldurr -> Unranked
Goodra -> Unranked
Hawlucha -> Unranked
Hoopa -> Unranked
Moltres -> Unranked
Pangoro -> Unranked
Reuniclus -> Unranked
These are pretty garbage. I don't really care if they have some tiny niche because we're talking about fucking Moltres in an OU based metagame here.

Unranked
Mega-Venusaur -> B
We already agreed on this, why didn't it make the list?
 
Agree immensely with Virginia. I wouldn't unrank Togekiss tho. Serene Grace is criminally underrated and Super Luck Aeroblast has value. It's in a shitty Speed tier however and absolutely needs paralysis/Web support.

But yeah, Swords Dance Ursaring is our new* god. It's stronger than EKiller Arceus and has the room to run FakeSpeed on the same set. The threat of FakeSpeed grants it the turn it needs to Swords Dance and most of the time that's GG. Sure it only has 1 slot for coverage but that's why you have 5 more teammates.

*not new technically, Lcass4919 was running it last OMPL we've just been sleeping on it this whole time.
 
Going back through the list, I think reuniclus and gastrodon are actually fine at C. I would also list dugtrio at C because nothing else can trap heatran or nonsteels, even though it's not that good. The C rank Pokemon are kinda iffy either way.

I also agree with togekiss
 
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Okay, I did everything ihhca suggested. RIP Clefable. ;_;7 (it's in B-).

I don't think unranking it is fair, in all honesty. The niche over Sylveon being Magic Guard and I do think that's enough of a niche. Wider movepool, Stealth Rock, and even Unaware if you want. B- is fine I guess, and even C if people hate it that much but I can't realistically see it off the list. :(

I'd put Dugtrio in B- personally. I like that thing. Thoughts?
 
I think B-ish is reasonable for Clefable, since that's where Quagsire is. I agree that unranking it is overkill.

B- also seems reasonable for Duggy, since it's completely match up based but has a very unique role.

Another mon that I think should be ranked is Forretress. It gets Sticky Web, Heal Order, U-Turn, which are very useful. Also it has Powder and Kings Shield, which are slightly less useful. It also gets Sturdy + Metal Burst, which can be hilarious, although Overcoat is generally a better ability since it makes it immune to Spore. It's the best Webs setter outside of Defensive Mega Scizor, which takes up a mega slot. It used to be better when KyuB was running around since it was one of the most reliable checks around, but it still does well as a defensive pivot against FakeSpeed and has the most hazard control options in the game. I think B is a pretty reasonable place to put it, since it can lose you a lot of momentum and struggles not to get setup on despite its enormous utility.

TTar could also move up either to A or A+, since it's one of the best pokemon on offense at blanket checking special attackers. As soon as it comes in, it puts the opponent in an immediate 50/50 between Sucker Punch or Scarf Knock Off and Pursuit. It can easily directly threaten or revenge pokemon like Thundy, Lati@s, Pidgeot, Raikou, Slowking, Tornadus, both Zards, Chansey, and Gengar.

I could see Reuniclus and Gastrodon coming back to C rank, for the RegenVest set and for being a decent niche check to a number of pokemon in the meta.

I'm concerned about Lucario and Suicune's viability, and I think that Raikou could probably move up a notch as well, but I'd like more input on these.

Thanks for updating!
 
forry should be ranked, im surprised its not. ttar should also be a, its a great mon but it has poor matchup against a lot of the common things rn, especially keld and zor. its a nice way to revenge kill thundy but very unreliable between focus blast, prankster twave, and switching out 50/50s with pursuit. i dont really see a point of using gastro at all, and reuni is really eh but i suppose it could be C.

with how dominant thundy is, raikou should definitely move up at least to B and maybe B+, as its one of the most reliable checks there are. being faster, immune to twave, and resistant to both of its stabs is really really handy, and it even deals with the physical set moderately well. it also checks keld and doesnt have a shit lando matchup (hp ice does a shit ton and it outspeeds non-scarf), meaning it matches up against the 3 best mons very positively. of course mega mane does most of this too but it takes a mega slot and really doesnt do all that much better.

weavile needs to drop to a- at least, just not that great atm and i dont think it is as good as anything else in A except maybe gar which could maybe drop. id like to see mega gyara drop to at least b+, with the fact you're using a mega combined with regular gyara being far more unpredictable (it actually gets flying stab! and can run dd sets, stabs + coverage + roost sets, and bulky twave roost sets, among other things) and just generally better. i just dont think mega gyara is as good as anything else in a-.

k lower stuff. yanmega is significantly worse than anything else in b+, drop it to b- or c. its very mediocre as a mon and very underwhelming. mamo and hippo are both pretty mediocre and could go to b as well. crawdaunt could be unranked or at least dropped to c, its just plain bad and theres no slow fat teams for it to abuse really. oh, and victini is pretty damn terrible, id unrank it personally.

:toast:
 
I don't want to rank Raikou with/above Jolteon because I don't believe it's better or even as good. Here's why:
  • Jolteon perks
    • Much higher base Speed
    • Better ability (wrt checking Thundurus); forces Thundurus player to use Oblivion Wing/coverage
    • Stronger coverage with Icicle Plate Judgment (standard atm)
    • Access to Normal moves (Boomburst, Rapid Spin) and Electrify
    • Actually stronger because it can afford to be Modest (still outspeeds Thundurus, the sole reason you're using Jolteon)
  • Raikou
    • Bulkier all-around
    • Can run Assault Vest/Lefties (isn't dicked as bad by Knock Off sets)
    • Access to Calm Mind
I value the Speed and power (Modest Ice Judgment is a solid OHKO) when checking Thundurus. If Raikou moves up, Jolteon should stay one step ahead of it.
 
dugtrio: ur -> b-
ttar: a- -> a
reun/gastro: back in c
lucario: ?
raikou: eh i think it's fine but b is where i'd prefer it
forretress: ur -> b- (??)
weavile: a -> a-
gyara-m: a- -> b+
yanmega: b+ -> b (or b-)
mamoswine/hippowdon: b+ -> b
crawdaunt: b- -> ur (idr why we ranked this)
victini: c -> ur (i think it's fine since it is c after all lol)

suicune is viable w/ a tw set imo. good for teams to have defensive backbones and overall utility/bulk but with lotsa power.

believes that is the summary of changes.

on raikou v jolteon:

raikou:
  • much better bulk [notable because you don't die from fakespeed as easily, and gives it a fighting chance against a lot of special attackers like latios, amongst others]
  • able to hold an item and be effective [you need to use icicplate to ohko 100% of the time without anything else, though lo thunderbolt from modest jolteon ohkoes thundy after lo damage as well]
  • versatility [unless there's other jolteon sets as viable as icicplate w/ judg, then i do think raikou is more versatile w subcm/cm/specs/av and is much more customizable for teams]
  • more utility [jolteon is strong, and if you're just using it to check one pokemon you're not using it to the fullest imo; raikou is just generally easier to fit thanks to the bulk and flexibility]
  • still beats thundurus [ohkoes at +1 from cm or specs and a round of lo damage, while 2hkoes any other time and brushes off thunderbolt or ow, and can live with great ease if needed]
jolteon:
  • much more powerful [modest sets do more always, except with lo which raikou doesn't run and it's obv weaker than a specs raikou when comparing thunderbolts]
  • much faster if needed [need to outspeed torn-t? check. need to outspeed scarf ttar? check. want to play a dice roll and tie with aero? check. overall, timid can let you outspeed things if you need to. raikou doesn't have this choice]
  • volt absorb is awesome [literally awesome lol. sucks opponent's momentum by absorbing volt switch.]
  • quicker thundurus disposal [ohkoes, versus shaky 2hkoes depending on ow rolls]
  • coverage [any 120 bp power move if you need it w/ judgment, and has more than hp in this regard. plus boomburst!]
  • judgment [seriously awesome oml. see above.]
  • decent bulk [lives neutral hits when it needs to and isn't as frail as i had originally thought]
in my opinion, jolteon is a notch above raikou, but i do believe they have enough perks to each their own to be the same rank. i feel like raikou's bulk makes up for less power. it's worse than jolteon without a doubt, but it could go up to b in such a thundurus-heavy metagame. i think that this is one of those instances where one is a little step ahead the other but the same rank makes more sense than separate ranks.

or we could do rankings in the ranks themselves and prevent this whole issue ._.
 
I think Jolteon at B+ and Raikou at B makes the most sense. Jolteon can run a lot of random utility moves in the 4th slot (assuming tbolt/judge/volt switch), like rapid spin, heal bell, and electrify. You can also run two coverage moves, ala Fissure with ice judge and HP Fire. I think the real difference between the two is the speed. Jolteon is fast enough to outsped mega pidgeot, scarf TTar, weavile, tornadus, and adamant aerodactyl, a lot of which it also ohkos.

The pseudo-bulk of volt absorb + electrify (or even milk drink lol) also offsets some of the natural bulk difference.
 
sounds fair to me! i just would prefer raikou moving up more than anything. jolteon can be b or b+. b+ sounds fair
 
Also I wouldn't discount Crawdaunt so quickly. Water/Dark is a pretty solid offensive combo. What do you want to switch into it?

Swords Dance + Sucker Punch + Water Shuriken is a bitch to revenge.

Sure it's nothing stellar because it's never switching in and is slow as Sleeping Beauty, but damn does it hurt.
 
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hey look here i am again, stanning for an eeveelution

Maybe Vaporeon could be up for a ranking slot? I've been running it as a hazard remover that Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Ferrothorn all fear. Sylveon can beat Heatran OR Ferrothorn, IF it has room for Judgment. Lati@s might fear any of the last three, depending on its set (EQ+HP Fire+Dragon STAB+Defog new meta???). Lando-T can't reliably beat other Lando-T's one-on-one and fears switching into Heatran's Fire STAB. Mega Lopunny doesn't really have room for a move to beat Lando-T if it runs Rapid Spin. Starmie is Pursuit-trapped by Ttar without a Reflect Type set and it needs HP Fire to get past Ferrothorn.

Vaporeon can run Steam Eruption, Judgment, Rapid Spin, and Recover with Flame Plate. Lando-T can take a chunk out of it but really fears that Steam Eruption (it can OHKO defensive sets after a burn, hence its pick over Scald), support Tyranitar sets hate Steam Eruption too (it's a 3HKO with Leftovers in the sand), Heatran can Taunt Vaporeon at the cost of its own life or maybe click Toxic but otherwise Vaporeon counters it, and if Ferrothorn stays in to set up hazards it gets wiped off the face of the planet by Fire Judgment. Oh, and any Spikes-setting Ground-type better watch the fuck out for obvious reasons.

As for side benefits, Water Absorb is real nice even on a Water-type because Scald burns are a pain in the ass, and its ability to railroad Keldeo into using Secret Sword is valuable if you have a Fighting resist. It won't perform against other Water-types with Fire Judgment, but if you have some other way to kill Grass-types (and Scizor) then by all means feel free to experiment with Electric or Grass Judgment, or any other Normal-type move. It's not weak either -- Steam Eruption will hurt anything on offense that doesn't resist it, and you can use that pressure to pull double switches and keep it from losing momentum.

tl;dr Bulky water with hazard removal, beats the best hazard setters, usable on balance/bulky offense, should be on the VR somewhere. If I really need to give a specific rank... B-. B if you're feeling generous. Has anyone else used it? I'll come up with replays that show its hazard-removing prowess, but the ladder is atrocious so I've only made that happen against bad teams (I did face the occasional good one, but they didn't really try to set up hazards for some reason).
 
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I'd like to nominate Mega Pidgeot to B+
It baffles me that this thing is only in B considering how impactful it can be to a team. Not only is it one of the meta's absolute hardest pokemon to outspeed, sitting at an amazing base 121 speed stat, but it's combination of the moves boomburst, hurricane, and heatwave allows it to break through almost the entire meta, bar things such as Ttar and Heatran, which it can put to sleep at ease with sing. Overall, this thing's extremely powerful stab moves, fair coverage, and ability to put its checks to sleep leaves it with a criminally under ranked status at B. Imo, it's way more comparable to the special attackers in B+ like Meloetta than things like Volc and Togekiss.
I'd also like to suggest that Alomomola and Quagsire drop to B-
While on paper, these mons seem like great assets to stall teams, stall is such a hard play style to make work in this tier with so many pokemon that are capable of applying insane pressure to bulkier builds. I can't think of a specific niche Mola has in this meta aside from wishtect and regenerator, which isn't going to do a team many favors with pokemon that can break through it on the turn it uses wish such as Tornadus and Sylveon and Chansey being a better wish passer. Quagsire can set up spikes and stop set up sweepers I guess, but almost every team packs an answer to this thing, such as Serperior, Keldeo and/or guts Ursaring, and to do its job, which is appreciated a lot more earlier in the match, you have to make sure that these checks are gone. If you want wish passers or checks to common sweepers, Sableye and it's mega form are great answers with priority topsy turvy and wow (commonly seen from Mega Sab) and Chansey can pass wishes alongside many other things, like transform into a bulkier version of its opponent or whirlwind threats away.
 
Ok so lets get some noms started especially since the meta has changed with the Thundy ban...

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A+ to S: Sylveon is one of the most centralizing mons in the meta atm. Boomburst from even uninvested deals a significant amount of damage to a majority of common mons used right now. Judgment coverage allows it to deal with counters such as Heatran and Ferrothorn and it also can pull off a nice Pixie Plate FakeSpeed set that can revenge kill most offensive sweepers. Sylveon also brings great utility with Rapid Spin and Heal Bell support which can be invaluable to certain teams who needs a cleric that isn't too passive thanks to Boombursts insane damage output. It checks a variety of threats and can be used on a significant amount of team archetypes. All these reasons make me believe Sylveon should rise to S-Rank.

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A to A+: Aerodactyl is another popular wallbreaker that many players utilize to nuke the enemy team thanks to its amazing STABs in Head Smash and Brave Bird denting and 2HKOing practically every mon in the meta when equipped with either a Life Orb or a Choice Band. It also can be used as a suicide lead with Stealth Rocks and Taunt and is very good at threatening other leads and hazard removers as well. Resisting FakeSpeed is also very crucial when dealing with offensive teams, especially since it pertains such a high Speed stat, although the SR weakness does limit the amount of switchins it can make. However, Aerodactyl should be considered for A+ due to the fact that it can dismantle so many common cores on typical bulky offense and balance teams atm, and that it also can provide very good hazard support as well.

302-m.png
A- to B+: Mega Sableye has just been lacking for me atm especially due to the increasingly popularity of Sylveon. Its great at reflecting hazards/status and wall many threats with its amazing defensive typing, however it is extremely difficult to switch it in on many attacks due to its low HP and abysmal Speed. Mega Sableye also faces stiff role competition from other more prominent Megas such as Lopunny, the Charizards and Slowbro due to the fact that it cannot be used on that many different team compositions compared to the previously mentioned mons. It also faces competition from its vanilla form thanks to Regular Sableye being able to pull of priority Burns, momentum, and Topsy-Turvy support. I think a Mega Sableye drop is well warranted at this point.

018-m.png
B to B+/A-: Please rise this thing up its honestly very good. Mega Pidgeot is an underrated threat imo due to many players disregarding it to use other Megas instead. However, its high base speed and special attack leave it to be a formidable threat, especially when you consider it being able to dish out insane damage from Boomburst and Hurricane. The main benefactor for Mega Pidgeot though comes from the utility of Sing, which grants it the opportunity to steal momentum from the opponent and grant you switch initiative. The SR weakness and the competition with Tornadus-T is apparent, however Mega Pidgeot has enough redeeming qualities to grant a raise to at least B+ (although I would preffer A-). Thundurus being banned also helps this thing out slightly as well.

642-s.png
B- to B/B+: So I guess this should be apparent with its better version recently being banned, however I have recently tried Thundurus-T out in a few matches and its a force to be reckoned with, The Agility set with Thunderbolt/Oblivion Wing/Focus Blast is really great at sweeping late game thanks to Thundurus-T's incredible 145 Sp.Atk helping it break through many defensive pokes. Volt Absorb is also very useful as an ability as it grants Thundurus-T quite a few switchin opportunities. This should be pretty obvious so I won't go too in depth.

images
Unranked to D/C: Now for my last nom I will be talking about a relic who had much fame and success in gen 5 STABmons, but unfortunately not so much in this iteration due to the Shell Smash ban. However, Bibarel can still pull of an effective Swords Dance set that basically gives it a +3 boost after only one use, and in conjunction with priority such as Extreme Speed and Water Shuriken, can become very volatile late game. Normal/Water is very good offensively and Bibarel can utilize this typing to weaken many seemingly defensive answers. Now of course Bibarel's average stats and poor movepool does limit it from becoming a top tier threat, however I do feel it has enough of a niche to be ranked between D or C rank.
 
I agree with Vaporeon -> B, Mega Pidgeot -> A-, Quag/momo -> B-, Sylveon -> S, Aero -> A+, Thundy-I -> B+, M-Sab -> B+, and Bibarel -> C

I'd like to nom Mega Venusaur for A-/B+. ellipse has convinced me that this thing is pretty damn good, so you can blame him if you disagree. Thundy was the biggest thing holding it back by far, and with that gone Venusaur checks a really large portion of the metagame. It's the one of the hardest counters available for Sylveon, Keldeo, Serperior, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Manaphy, and Mega Blastoise. It's a very good check to M-Lopunny, Ursaring, Mega Diancie, Terrakion, (M)-Slowbro, Slowking, Tank Chomp, Mega Gyarados, and Tyranitar. I think the best set is some variation of the coil set this:

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 144 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Spore
- Synthesis
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Sludge Wave
Click to expand...

This is the standard defensive spread from OU, so it could probably be tweaked. It does avoid the 2hko from Keldeo's Specs Steam Eruption after SR and 1 turn of Burn damage (so you can at least trade with it or stall Steam Eruption for Synthesis). It might be worth scrapping the Speed EVs for more Def, since things tend to hit harder and faster in STABmons than OU. HP Fire is better in my mind, since the pokemon that switch in on HP Fire are taken care of by Spore anyways (Dragons, Fire types, and Flying types in general). Seed Flare hits pretty hard even with no investment, thanks to its 120 BP and 122 SpA, and SpD drops can break a lot of slower checks, like Chansey. It's issue is mostly that it is susceptible to getting whittled since it switches into a lot of scalds and steam eruptions, doesn't have passive recovery, and can get PP stalled out of Synth (although that's less of an issue in STAB since so many things run 8 PP moves and the games go by pretty quick).


I'd also like to nom Jolteon for B+. It's tied the fastest unboosted non-mega pokemon, and generally outspeeds everything. It has excellent coverage in TBolt + Ice Judge, and has lots of options between Sub + Electrify, Volt Switch, HP Fire, or whatever random normal utility move you want to stick on it (mostly emergency Rapid Spin or Heal Bell). The two best sets that I've seen are Sub + Electrify and Fissure's 4 Atk set. The 4 Atk set is a solid pivot, which can weaken teams in the early- or mid-game. It suffers a bit late game from losing the speed tie against other base 130s due to HP Fire. The electrify set tends to just win outright in the late-game, since it can easily PP stall checks with Sub + Electrify (which has 48 total PP, while most pokemon are running lots of 8 PP moves in STABmons), this is especially easy if you get a Sub up for free (all you have to do is click Sub a bunch, then click Electrify a bunch, and get 1 mixup in).

Jolteon @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Judgment
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Jolteon @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Electrify
- Judgment
- Thunderbolt
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dugtrio: ur -> b-
ttar: a- -> a
reun/gastro: back in c
lucario: ?
raikou: eh i think it's fine but b is where i'd prefer it
forretress: ur -> b- (??)
weavile: a -> a-
gyara-m: a- -> b+
yanmega: b+ -> b (or b-)
mamoswine/hippowdon: b+ -> b
crawdaunt: b- -> ur (idr why we ranked this)
victini: c -> ur (i think it's fine since it is c after all lol)
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Is this stuff going to happen (besides Crawdaunt, which I think should stay ranked)? I feel like the discussion has moved on despite these changes not actually happening yet. I'm a bit confused on whether we should be discussing new changes like we have been or if these were the talking points we were supposed to be using for the past 3 weeks.

It seems like in addition to those things, it seems like people are comfortable with:

Sylveon A+ -> S
Aerodactyl A -> A+
Mega Pidgeot B -> A-
Mega Sableye A- -> B+
Jolteon B -> B+
Mega Venusaur B -> B+
Thundy-T B- -> B+
Vaporeon ur -> B (ish)
Quagsire B -> B-
Alomomola B -> B-
Bibarel ur -> C
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Finally, I might sound a bit off the deep end here, but I think Shedinja should be on the VR. It's very usable, albeit very niche, with Goggles + M-Sableye + probably 2 hazard clearers. Luckily for it, there are like twenty new hazard clearers to choose from (Chansey, P2, Sylveon, Lando, Torn-T, Gyarados, Skarm, Zapdos, and probably a few more could easily fit on a stall team). The biggest thing it gains imo is Spikes (from Nincada), although it also gets Webs, PBlades/EQ, U-Turn (not advised), and Tail Glow-Pass, which are all worth mentioning but probably OK at best. I don't think I need to tell anyone how Shed stall works or enumerate the number of things it beats. You can look up the top replays on the ladder and witness a brutal shed-sab-stall team for yourself. I know I've been wrecked by it a few times now. C seems fitting since it doesn't really fit well on many other teams, despite having quite a few support and sweeping options.
 
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Alright time to pitch my cents

Sylveon - S Rank: Sylveon is just sooo good right now, with thenominal FakeSpeedBoom sets and a toss up moveslot, which can beat common counters, provide hazard control or as I've seen even Utility like Baton Pass for momentum. Its a fantastic mon and should be looking up.

Jolteon - B- Rank: Honestly guys. Why continue to use this thing? With the Thundy ban it loses its only niche as best offensive answer to it. While Judgement, Glare and Rapid Spin is nice, its still outclassed as an offensive Electric type.

I agree with all the other nominations, but dont disregard Crawdaunt just yet. While rn its not fantastic in the metagame, it can still put in the work against offensive and balance teams alike. I say C+ or B- ranking!

Sheddy should also get ranked, with its hazard stacking and being one of the few things that can hold stall together.
 
Mega Venu needs to be in A somewhere. It's incredibly anti-meta and can check two of the biggest threats by itself.

Jolteon is used as an Electrify staller as well G-Luke and is a nice Adamant Aerodactyl revenger/momentum grabber. I see no need to drop it even with Thundurus gone.

Mega Pidge really needs to go up too. It has a lot of flexibility in the 4th slot. I've been toying with Work Up sets but coverage/U-turn are still solid. I agree with A-.
 
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