Metagame STABmons


Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Taunt

Just want to draw everyone's attention to this criminally underrated beast. Never have I ran into one, but I've personally been experimenting with a plethora of Mega Houndoom sets on a variety of builds, and this pokemon is an absolutely phenomenal Stall Breaker. Boasting strong and unique typing both offensively and defensively, with the awesome Flash Fire in the back pocket alongside great speed and power, this mon is not to be overlooked. Blue Flare is incredible on Mega Houndoom, and after a Nasty Plot, there is very little that could even dream of surviving this monster's STABs. Even Max HP Tapu Fini is guaranteed to be 2HKOed by a +2 Blue Flare. As an example, take Jajoken 's stall team on page 14. At +2, everything is OHKOed bar Chansey and Toxapex, Chansey is forced to use Struggle by Taunt, and Toxapex fails to 2HKO with Scald, meaning Houndoom can Taunt to prevent Haze before 2HKOing with Dark Pulse. Unaware is not an answer to Mega Houndoom, as Clefable and Quagsire are both 2HKOed after Stealth Rocks by Blue Flare and Dark Pulse respectively, and more importantly are both OHKOed by Sunny Day sets. The only chance that Stall has against Mega Houndoom is Dugtrio.

But this is far from Mega Houndoom's only set, as I mentioned I've tried many. All Houndoom really needs is dual STAB, so you have 2 move slots to do whatever you'd like. Sunny Day is an epic alternative to Nasty Plot, giving more immediate power on Blue Flare and bypassing Unaware mons more easily, while also allowing you to sponge up Scalds. Sunny Day + V-Create is a pretty cool combo, working the same way as Mega Zard-Y's similar set. If you're looking to maul offence with Mega Houndoom however, options like Eruption and Parting Shot are pretty epic, with Will-O-Wisp also bringing great utility.
Honourable mentions to Substitute, Magma Storm and Night Daze too.

Obviously Mega Houndoom isn't without flaws though. Its 115 Speed tier however great, still leaves a lot to be desired as it is revenged by many faster threats such as Koko and Gren, as well as Scarfers. It's relative frailty and weakness to Mach Punch, Accelerock and Aqua Jet also leave it very weak to priority spam. And its Stealth Rock weakness isn't exactly doing it a bunch of favours, even less so if you're running Sunny Day to abuse Solar Power. However, if you're willing to build around Mega Houndoom and give it the support it needs, I guarantee it'll pull it's weight. All it demands it SR removal and it'll defeat Stall single handedly, but if you're prepared to give it some Sticky Web support as well, it'll crush offence too, even without the Eruption + Parting Shot set.

Unfortunately I don't have a bunch of replays atm, but I might start saving a few now. But just in case you're not convinced, here's a bunch of calcs:
252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable in Sun: 409-483 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire in Sun: 356-419 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 178-210 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Houndoom-Mega V-create vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 355-418 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 382-451 (100.2 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 271-319 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 (Flash Fire) 252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 335-394 (112.7 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tl;dr Use Mega Houndoom. Use on Sticky Webs for extra demolition.
 
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These are NOT the only 2 Koko sets. Band, Scarf, Specs, Flynium Z, Magnet, Mixed LO, Taunt etc. are all viable sets. Reducing Koko's sets run to 2 Life Orb sets is just silly.
Choice Item:" If we use a Choice Item, we can more easily counter him with some anticipation "
Flynium Z, Magnet: LO hits harder.
Taunt: A lot of checks can OHKO Koko.
Mixed LO: Same checks that physical set ?
I reduce Koko to his best set, the physical set. I NEVER seen a Koko with HP Fire and I know this metagame ( Without any Pride ). That sounds like a gimmick's set.

I speak with my experience of Koko, I don't use a Hard-Check like Steelix, but he was never a problem for me. This pokemon has a 4move syndrome, he can deal with a lot of checks, but not all( Who use Grass Knot ?). All STABMONS's team has one or two checks of Koko ( GRASS and GROUND pokemon are VERY good ).
 
I think we should do a suspect on sleeping moves in general. It's honestly complete bullshit that pokemon like Mega Pidgeot, Mega Lopunny and Rotom can just put their checks to sleep in one turn. Now you can say "B-b-but Tapu Koko!". Well, what if your foe takes out Koko? Then what? And sure, maybe Spore can be tolerated. After all, bulky Grass Pokemon are quite common. But what about Sing and Lovely Kiss? Name one OU-viable Pokemon besides Koko that can absorb one. And no, Safety Goggles don't work against these moves, I checked.
In my opinion, the problem isn't that there aren't lots of sleep counter-measures. The issue is that there aren't any good USERS of said counter-measures, or that they're niche. Let's go through the list:

Soundproof
No OU viable Pokemon have the Soundproof ability. The highest tier Pokemon with this ability is Kommo-o, who is only RU.

Insomnia
No OU viable Pokemon have the Insomnia ability. The highest tier Pokemon with this ability is Honchkrow, who is only RU. Besides, it has to sacrifice the far superior and more reliable Moxie for a situational ability that only helps against a couple of things.

Vital Spirit
Once again, no OU viable Pokemon have this ability. The highest tier Pokemon are Magmortar, Electivire and Lycanroc-Midnight, who sit in NU.

Overcoat
Now, there are some Pokemon that can work in OU with this ability. One of them is Forretress. Problem is, you need to sacrifice Sturdy, a far more useful and reliable ability. Another one of these Pokemon is Mandibuzz. This is the only case where Overcoat doesn't force you to miss out on a better ability. Also, remember: Overcoat only protects from Spore. You're still boned against Lovely Kiss and Mega Pidgeot's Sing.

Magic Bounce
There are two Pokemon that can work in OU with this ability. The first is Mega Sableye, which really only fits on Stall. The second is Espeon, who can actually work due to having a wide movepool, courtesy of the other Eeveelutions, as well as nice special attacking stats.

Safety Goggles
Similar issue as with Overcoat. First off, you need to sacrifice a better item like Life Orb, Rocky Helmet or Leftovers. Second of all, it only protects against Spore.

Bulky Grass Pokemon
Only protected from Spore.

Tapu Fini
While a good check, it's only one Pokemon. Doesn't appreciate Rotom or Grass types.

Tapu Koko
Best Sleep check there is, and yet it's STILL outsped and potentially KOed by Mega Lopunny.

All in all, that's only FOUR reliable, no-drawback checks to Sleep: Mega Sableye (only fits on stall), Tapu Koko (frail and outsped by one of the Pokemon it tries to check, as well as other offensive threats like Ash-Greninja, also can have terrain removed), Tapu Fini (Can have it's terrain removed as well as being weak to Rotom and Grass types) and Espeon (Viability is otherwise questionable compared to other Eeveelutions). Everything else listed either requires you to lose a better option for that Pokemon (Safety Goggles in exchange for a more reliable item, also Overcoat), or has no viable users of the technique (All Insomnia, Soundproof and Vital Spirit users suck).

Nope, still not convinced that Sleep is balanced.

EDIT: Nevermind, Espeon can't get moves that are the same types as the Eeveelutions. Now we're down to THREE Sleep counters.
I can see where you are coming from,sure sleep can be annoying. But I must say I don't think it's much of an issue. Sure certain Pokemon can easily put anything they want to sleep,but this isn't BH. There is in fact a sleep clause.
One Mon put to sleep is not hard to deal with. I don't even think my own is a valid argument,but I do think it should be at least noted

At least it's not gen 5 sleep mechanics ok. That shut was bisted
 
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Choice Item:" If we use a Choice Item, we can more easily counter him with some anticipation "
Flynium Z, Magnet: LO hits harder.
Taunt: A lot of checks can OHKO Koko.
Mixed LO: Same checks that physical set ?
I reduce Koko to his best set, the physical set. I NEVER seen a Koko with HP Fire and I know this metagame ( Without any Pride ). That sounds like a gimmick's set.

I speak with my experience of Koko, I don't use a Hard-Check like Steelix, but he was never a problem for me. This pokemon has a 4move syndrome, he can deal with a lot of checks, but not all( Who use Grass Knot ?). All STABMONS's team has one or two checks of Koko ( GRASS and GROUND pokemon are VERY good ).
hp fire is very good and its actually common on the ladder, people realize how easy it is to put a ferro on ur team, and those arent the "best sets". flynium z is used to kill mvenu, taunt is used to shut down passive users. mixed lo is one of the best lol. though i do agree that no one runs grass knot and it shouldnt be used, whatever grass knot is used to hit is ohko'ed by fleur cannon aside from gasto.
 
hp fire is very good and its actually common on the ladder, people realize how easy it is to put a ferro on ur team, and those arent the "best sets". flynium z is used to kill mvenu, taunt is used to shut down passive users. mixed lo is one of the best lol. though i do agree that no one runs grass knot and it shouldnt be used, whatever grass knot is used to hit is ohko'ed by fleur cannon aside from gasto.
I've mostly seen GK on phys biased LO koko to handle swampert, since pert can eat both play rough and bolt strike.
 
I've mostly seen GK on phys biased LO koko to handle swampert, since pert can eat both play rough and bolt strike.
not sure what swampert u mean but it cant be a bulky one, cuz those are bad and outclassed as a koko answer to ur team. the only sets they run are rain. sure u can run some shore up set but they arent good at all.
 
So, let's talk about Sleep.



"I assume they have all the usual vices, besides those they've invented for themselves."

When we think about Sleep, what do we think about? A volatile status. An incapacitated foe. STABmons has many sleep abusers - any Grass-type must be assumed to be carrying Spore, any Normal can whip out a Lovely Kiss (and she probably won't even offer to buy you dinner, first!). Then there are the edge cases: No Guard Sing Mega Pidgeot, all the Rotoms having access to Spore via their lawnmower form, and all the Eeveelutions earning Lovely Kiss via their predecessor.

So how is it utilized? And what can you do to stop it?

"My, my, my! Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains! You know, you're the second guy I've met today that seems to think a gat in the hand means the world by the tail."

Grass Pokemon, by virtue of being Grass, are immune to Spore. A pair of Safety Goggles can mimic this, as can Overcoat. Soundproof blocks Sing. Magic Bounce stops it all. Sleep Talk can be used by anything, but takes the game of chance and turns it into a roulette of uncertainty. Guts can block it - if the Guts user is already suffering. A faster Taunt diffuses the gun before they can even pull the trigger. And there's the Sleep Clause, Sleep's worst enemy.

But what do you think? How would you rank the biggest Sleepers and biggest Sleep counters? Is the nightmare really as bad as they say, or is it just a case of restlessness? Is it a metagame defining force, or just another element to the game you have to be aware of? Share your thoughts and use examples.


"You've forgotten one thing - me."

"What's wrong with you?"
"Nothing you can't fix."


top kek image there my friend

First, gotta say, good post. Keep forgetting half of these stuff exist, keep it up.

"I'll huff, and I'll puff, and I'll do a shitty attempt at mimicking what you did!"

First, users.

Tangrowth, Rotom-Wash, and Venusaur-Mega are some of the stronger users of Spore, although Silvally (without Ghost) and Tapu Bulu, as well as other grasses, can use it effectively. The first three tend to be bulky enough to either wall a specific threat, force them out, then Spore either a sacked switchin or the answer to them, either in the form of a strong Flying-type or a Special wallbreaker (In Rotom's case, due to burns). Venusaur-Mega will slow the game down once whatever specifically threatens it is asleep, stalling with Strength Sap and Clear Smog until either the sleep turns are up or until something else switches in. Rotom-Wash appeciates a mon being asleep as it is a free pivot out, and Tangrowth does similarly but with a hard switch. Silvally, on the other hand, uses Spore as a method to set up Quiver Dances, Dragon Dances, Double Dance sets, et cetera. Bulu just uses it akin to how Lopunny uses Lovely Kiss; to put to sleep the answer to it.

Speaking of Lopunny, Lovely Kiss and Sing are almost exclusively used by Lopunny-Mega and Pidgeot-Mega, although I at least have had some fun using it on Diggersby. Sing is a less accurate version of Lovely Kiss that bypasses Subs, is less accurate, and is stopped by Soundproof, and is primarily used by Pidgeot-Mega. Lopunny is mainly where Lovely Kiss breaks, as almost any answer to it, be it strong physical walls or Intimidate offensive Pokemon, can be put to sleep and incapacitated for likely the rest of the match. Diggersby also can be used like Lopunny; spore a switchin to Fakespeed + EQ.

Grass pokemon, Safety Goggles, and Overcoat are the three things that really stop Spore from being a nuisance. With Koko around, and the fact I've found Tang/Venusaur/Bulu to be a trio of good mons I want on nearly on every team, it's not too hard to have at least something that stops Spore. Safety Goggles feels like I'm burning an item slot just to block one thing, instead of using far nicer items such as Life Orbs, Leftovers. Overcoat is a rarely seen commodity, and few mons that get it are extremely popular or notably gain any powerful moves besides (and this is arguable) Forretress with Webs and Mandibuzz with a myraid of supporting Dark-type status moves, but Forretress won't be doing much in return while Mandibuzz does form an alright answer.

Now for Sing and Lovely Kiss. The only notable difference I can really see is that Sing is blocked by Soundproof. And while Eevee General brought up Bouffalant as a decent Soundproof mon, it feels like its forced to be there solely to stop one status. Soundproof also only blocks Sing, which is only used by one Pokemon that isn't too frequently seen, with other better Megas being available. Lovely Kiss is, like Spore, blocked by Magic Bounce, Pokemon already Statused, and the several abilities of Insomnia/Vital Spirit. Magic Bounce isn't frequently seen, but Mega Sableye runs it (stall only, you're gonna see me repeating a bunch of stuff other people have said because I'm slow), and Espeon is alright but it has to fight competition with faster or stronger threats (but Psystrike+Sball+Judgment coverage is cool). Just about nothing worthwhile or not fully outclassed by a stronger, better typed, and/or better movepool'd Pokemon gets these abilities. Espeon and Mega-Sableye also struggle to take even one hit from Lopunny-Mega, and if they misread what the Lop player is going for, they could lose their so-called 'answer' to the opponent's Sleep.


One unspoken answer (and our hero in... awkward green skin) is the Lum Berry, which I find very useful on just about any physical attacker, but especially Dual Dance mons such as Lando and SD+Espeed Normal types. Not only does it temporarily stop Spore, Sing, AND Lovely Kiss, it is usable on most Pokemon, most notably physical sweepers, as well as it blocks Steam Eruption's Burn chance from all of the common Water Types, Searing Shot from Fire types, Toxic Spikes poison (once), and every way to inflict Paralysis such as Discharge, Thunder Wave, and all. If I wanted to make another counterargument here, it'd be for Lum Berry (although still losing your Leftovers or Life Orb is sad.)

Taunt doesn't feel like 'enough' of an answer, as most Grass types that carry Spore will click Seed Flare (Venusaur-Mega, Tangrowth) or Wood Hammer/Power Whip (Tapu Bulu) if necessary, being one of the strongest options for them hitting other mons. It also doesn't help that most of the Taunt users up the higher ranks in viability and for usage (for what you'll see on the ladder) don't resist Grass, or if they do, they tend to not resist the other possible STAB option or Ground, notably on Venusaur and Tangrowth as Earthquake. Rotom-Wash also doesn't really mind being Taunted, as it is a possible turn for it to Steam Eruption or pivot out into a stronger threat. Silvally can just click whatever STAB option it is carrying, and may not even have Spore. For Lovely Kiss, Lopunny just outspeeds nearly every viable mon as is, and taunting it won't be doing much. Prankster Taunt on, say, Sableye, is possible, but you're asking to get High Jump Kicked and are better off clicking Will-O. Pidgeot-Mega also is faster than most mons, although the taunters that are faster, notably Koko, are either able to OHKO Pidgeot, or in Koko's case can just negate sleep altogether.


And I guess sleep clause 'hinders' it? I mean, it doesn't stop Spore in places such as Sketchmons and even standard formats from being a real nuisance, and although its spread isn't as wide as in Sketchmons, it still is possible to held on nearly every team, especially with how strong the Silvally forms can be if played right.

Maybe I'll change my views on it later... Idk. Now I'm kinda iffy on it all.


cant wait to see all the innovative sets people make while this all goes through, though. stuff to steal cuz i'm lazy

if you see any errors call me out on it
 
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ihhca

STABman
I've been trying to come up with KyuB replacements, and have been making good use of DD + Z-Hydro Pump Salamence. It's pretty good and catches a lot of people off-guard, letting you stack plenty of moxie boosts. It struggles to break a few common things, like Magearna, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, and Toxapex, depending on exactly what moves you run. Z-Hydro Pump picks up KOs on 252/0 Landorus, 252/0 M-Steelix, 252/200 Steelix, 252/0 Rotom-H, 252/0 Hippowdon, any Rhydon/-perior, offensive Excadrill, offensive Heatran, and severely dents TTar and more specially bulky versions of these pokemon. Don't use it on bulky TTar, since that thing takes basically nothing.

Salamence @ Waterium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 152 Atk / 104 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature / Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Hammer / Earthquake / Fire Blast

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 382-450 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix: 346-408 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 298-352 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Steelix-Mega: 330-390 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 272-320 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 300-354 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Hippowdon: 408-480 (97.1 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 334-394 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 484-572 (116.9 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 492-579 (113.6 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 450-530 (124.3 - 146.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Excadrill: 298-352 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 300-354 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 226-266 (58.7 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 212-250 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 212-250 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
104 SpA Salamence Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 154-182 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

EVs OHKO max HP lando with Z-pump. You can clearly invest a little more for more reliability against a few targets. I prefer Hammer to sweep with and Ascent to wallbreak with, since the defense drops leave you easily revenge killed. You could be a little crazy like I was and run 144 EVs and Fire Blast to nail Defensive Ferrothorn, but boosted Ascent deals with it OK. EQ is an option for a few of the listed targets + Magearna. Lando is clearly the main target of Z-Pump, but you can see that this set can pull weight against other would-be checks too. Regular Hydro Pump hits significantly weaker, but is still a good option to 2hko most of these things in a pinch if you don't want to blow your Z-Crystal.
 
shittychomp.png
Mega Garchomp: A- to B+ or B

I seriously cannot understand for the life of me why people would use this over regular Garchomp, who is faster, stronger with Life Orb, and doesn't take up a mega slot that could be used for something actually viable, like Mega Lopunny or Mega Venusaur. "B-b-but it's bulkier" you may say. Yet, even then, regular Garchomp often STILL does a better job as a tank due to Rough Skin and being able to hold Rocky Helmet or even lefties, while still having good all-around bulk. The only case where I could see someone who isn't a low ladder idiot using this is on a sand team. And while Tyranitar is common, Sand Force still only boosts three move types: One of it's own STABs is left out. Overall, Mega Garchomp has a niche, but it's too specific of a niche to stay in the A tier, in my opinion.
 

drampa's grandpa

#sobblesquad
is a Pre-Contributor
Slowbro-Mega Unranked --> A-

I'm assuming this was just an oversight. Being one of the physically bulkiest pokemon in a tier with some really strong physical attackers is good. It does what it does in standard, but with better STABs in Psystrike and Steam Eruption. It's one of the best Diggersby checks / counters.

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
That's not my recommended Slowbro set or anything just a- wait why is that Knock off boosted. Goddamit Kris ur calc sucks idk why I use it
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 156-185 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
There, even better.

A- seems to fit pretty well. I certainly would never put it lower than Slowking... which honestly seems pretty high.

Mantine Unranked --> B

Mantine gains Oblivion Wing, but what mainly lets it function is its fantastic special bulk. It's main STAB healing it gives it surprising staying power even while taking repeated hits, making things that should be 2hkos 3 or even 4 hit kos. I can't in good conscience recommend it for a rank higher than B because A) it doesn't fit well on more offensive playstyles, which isn't good for a STABmons mon, B) it dies to electric spam *cough Koko* C) It competes with stuff such as Toxapex for the bulky water slot, so has high opportunity cost to use without stacking weaknesses.

Other things I think should be discussed:
Toxapex (to rise maybe)
Regular Steelix (ranked or no? Would only be useful in that it doesn't take up your mega slot)
Keldeo (to maybe fall, I've been disappointed)
Marowak-A (Ditto what I said for Keldeo, but a little less so)
Nihilego (to fall, I've never seen this thing tho and only seen z-purify sets discussed)
Magneton (to be ranked, definitely do this, I'm just not sure where)

A lot of this may be bs and it ust sorta fell out of my brain onto the page with no intervention but I hope some of it goes somewhere.
 
Shaymin_XY.gif

Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Spore/Earth Power
- Strength Sap/Roost
- Seed Flare

Ok, I'll admit it: I didn't bother testing this set at all. I just came up with it on the fly and thought "Eh, why not?"

Shaymin makes for a unique wall due to being the bulkiest Grass Pokemon with hazard removal. Natural Cure, while not as helpful as Regenerator or something, can be useful for neutralizing the effects of those pesky Toxic users. Either Strength Sap or Roost can be used for recovery: The former can cripple physical attackers while healing yourself, while the latter is more reliable. Spore can be sacrificed for Earth Power, which harms Fire types on the switch-in. A physically bulky set is preferred because most wallbreakers that take down Shaymin (Cough cough Megazard Y Cough Cough) are special attackers, so investing in Special Defense is redundant. Other options include:
- Oblivion Wing
- Healing Wish
- Dazzling Gleam

Shaymin is not for every team. Most of the time, you're better off using Tangrowth or Mega Venusaur for your bulky Grass type. If you can't seem to fit hazard removal on your team though, and you want a semi-decent Grass wall at the same time, Shaymin might be worth taking a look at.
 
How is Braviary any different in STABmons than normal? He gets both Return and Brave Bird, as well as roost in his normal movepool (well, from movepool and TMs).
Braviary gets moves such as Swords Dance and extreme speed; the latter, alongside defiant, makes it one of the few extreme speeders not answered by landorus-t, and allows it to heavily punish defog. It can also run dragon ascent over brave bird if it wants.
 
It's time I put this out there.

Personally, I think we should really consider unbanning Komala.

Truth be told, I don't understand why it was banned to begin with. I mean, sure, Comatose is a good ability. Being totally immune to status is pretty cool. But Komala doesn't have much else going for it besides that one ability. Let's compare it to some other popular normal types. Disclaimer: I don't think any of the listed Pokemon are ban-worthy. I think they are balanced. I'm just trying to prove a point.


Ursaring
Ursaring is stronger, has better physical bulk, and has an ability that can turn status against the foe. It also has Close Combat to take care of resists. Perfectly balanced.

Bewear
Bewear is also stronger than Komala. It has a secondary Fighting STAB, giving it moves like Close Combat, High Jump Kick, Drain Punch and Mach Punch. Fluffy makes it incredibly physically bulky, while still being able to strike for high damage with the trademark FakeSpeed combo. Strong, but still considered balanced.

Snorlax

It may be the weakest of the bunch, but it still has a strong niche. With Belly Drum, Gluttony, and great all-around bulk, it is by far the best BellySpeeder there is, being basically unstoppable once the foe's Normal resists are weakened/KOed. Despite this, it is still not fool-proof, and therefore is balanced.

Mega Pidgeot

Very fast, can cripple checks/counters with No Guard Sing, and can then proceed to spam Boomburst/Hurricane. Very menacing, but you don't see people begging for it to be suspected.

Porygon-Z

Adaptability Boomburst, Z-Conversion, lots of coverage, as well as decent speed, but yet is still considered balanced.

Braviary

See Quantum Tesseract's post. Still balanced.

And now...


Komala
Komala has Comatose. Not much else aside from that. It doesn't learn Belly Drum naturally. It's rather slow, being too slow for Scarf Sleep Talk Whirlwind to be reliable, as it is still outsped by Tapu Koko and Mega Lopunny, as well as nearly every other scarfer. Bulk is questionable, especially on the physical side. Don't forget: Priority exists, and seeing as most of it is physical, Komala won't like it.

If it's that much of an issue to you guys, we could always do a suspect tour.

 

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drampa's grandpa

#sobblesquad
is a Pre-Contributor
It's time I put this out there.

Personally, I think we should really consider unbanning Komala.

Truth be told, I don't understand why it was banned to begin with. I mean, sure, Comatose is a good ability. Being totally immune to status is pretty cool. But Komala doesn't have much else going for it besides that one ability. Let's compare it to some other popular normal types. Disclaimer: I don't think any of the listed Pokemon are ban-worthy. I think they are balanced. I'm just trying to prove a point.


Ursaring
Ursaring is stronger, has better physical bulk, and has an ability that can turn status against the foe. It also has Close Combat to take care of resists. Perfectly balanced.

Bewear
Bewear is also stronger than Komala. It has a secondary Fighting STAB, giving it moves like Close Combat, High Jump Kick, Drain Punch and Mach Punch. Fluffy makes it incredibly physically bulky, while still being able to strike for high damage with the trademark FakeSpeed combo. Strong, but still considered balanced.

Snorlax

It may be the weakest of the bunch, but it still has a strong niche. With Belly Drum, Gluttony, and great all-around bulk, it is by far the best BellySpeeder there is, being basically unstoppable once the foe's Normal resists are weakened/KOed. Despite this, it is still not fool-proof, and therefore is balanced.

Mega Pidgeot

Very fast, can cripple checks/counters with No Guard Sing, and can then proceed to spam Boomburst/Hurricane. Very menacing, but you don't see people begging for it to be suspected.

Porygon-Z

Adaptability Boomburst, Z-Conversion, lots of coverage, as well as decent speed, but yet is still considered balanced.

Braviary

See Quantum Tesseract's post. Still balanced.

And now...


Komala
Komala has Comatose. Not much else aside from that. It doesn't learn Belly Drum naturally. It's rather slow, being too slow for Scarf Sleep Talk Whirlwind to be reliable, as it is still outsped by Tapu Koko and Mega Lopunny, as well as nearly every other scarfer. Bulk is questionable, especially on the physical side. Don't forget: Priority exists, and seeing as most of it is physical, Komala won't like it.

If it's that much of an issue to you guys, we could always do a suspect tour.
If you had asked why Komala was banned first you would have discovered that it wasn't banned for it's Espeed capabilities, but it's ability to use Whirlwind in combination with Sleep Talk and a Choice Scarf to Comaphaze. This was seen by the council as uncompetitive because anything slower than Komala without priority or Magic Bounce couldn't move, while it racked up hazard damage.
 
If you had asked why Komala was banned first you would have discovered that it wasn't banned for it's Espeed capabilities, but it's ability to use Whirlwind in combination with Sleep Talk and a Choice Scarf to Comaphaze. This was seen by the council as uncompetitive because anything slower than Komala without priority or Magic Bounce couldn't move, while it racked up hazard damage.
I did mention this at the end. I still think Komala can be stopped.
 
We don't only ban broken things, we also ban uncompetitive things, and it should go without saying that uncompetitive and broken are different. We found it to be the former, same as the flinch items (when combo'd with Skill Link) and Acupressure.

Per the OU's tiering policy framework, which we operate off of by virtue of being OU-based:

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) Important to note that it is a relative statement; a 200/200/200/200/200/200 BST Pokemon with standard movepool would be broken in a metagame where the average is say, 100/100/100/100/100/100, not where the average is 200/200/200/200/200/200
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.

1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it.

I blue'd the relevant parts.

In all, we try to focus our bans on two areas: Moves and Pokemon. (Items are banned when another option isn't available - think megas; or when the uncompetitive aspect is in the item itself - think flinch.) I hope this helps.
 

drampa's grandpa

#sobblesquad
is a Pre-Contributor
I did mention this at the end. I still think Komala can be stopped.
Sorry didn't read carefully enough, I see it now. The entire top part is irrelevant though, it had no part in getting Komala banned.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you (I was and am against a Komala ban, although I don't really care that much), the problem is that once the faster mons and priority are gone, the game is 100% over unless Komala runs out of PP. I know you can argue that once the stops to anything are gone to anything it wins, but Komala takes it to the level of eliminating any counterplay whatsoever. Even if you do have stops to it, you rely on rng (which as an infamous user reminds us, is cancer) to bring out your stop, as you can't send it out yourself or it will just be phazed. I believe this last part is why ihhca wanted it banned.

As for being too slow... it hits 376 speed. You can run Sticky Web with it if you like, and I would argue that to maximize the sets potential you would run it on a Sticky Web team. Lets look at it with both.

Without Sticky Web: Tapu Koko, Greninja, Mega Beedrill, Aerodactyl, Weavile, Mega Alakazam, Crobat, Jolteon, Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile and scarfers above base 65 are viable things that outspeed it.
With Sticky Web: Aerodactyl, Crobat, Airborne scarfers above base 65, scarfers above base 121

I was generous with viability there by the way (Crobat? lol)

Other than that it's priority.

Now as Eevee General said as I was typing this up; no, it's not op. It's rng based, uncompetitive, and honestly usually doesn't work all that well. The one team I tried it on I always seemed to bring in things that could Fakespeed me for minimal cost, like Diggersby (yes I know I sort of skimmed over priority in this post.) THe fact that neither side chooses what mon is going to be out on the field next seems to fit the definition of uncompetitive.

This feels really superfluous now that Eevee has replied before me but I refuse to waste such beautiful prose :3
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
also, webs + scarf komala is incredibly deadly
In my perspective, it is deadly assuming opponent is not prepared. But considering how prevalent priority is in this metagame, and no Psychic Terrain support can be acquired due to Tapu Lele being in banlist, it is easily stopped even after successfully setting hazards and webs.

But I still think coma-phaze is not competitive to some extent. Not being able to anything for 16 turns and stepping on hazards every turn is purely stupid, and forcing every players to get magic bounce or fake+speed user should not be considered viable counterplay but should rather be taken as "bad phenomenon caused from uncompetitive part of the meta".
 

wishes

blame it on u
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I've been seeing more and more talk about Komala recently for some reason. Komala isn't broken by any means; however, as Eevee General said, or as Funbot28 statetd previously in the quickban announcement post, very clearly, the strategy has stops, but it is uncompetitive. We all know it's outsped by Tapu Koko, Mega Lopunny, and Greninja-Ash, but what does that matter? What of using those makes Komala any more competitive to use? It's not like using Komala means you set up one layer of entry hazards, then clean up with it. Komala actually takes a bit of thought (knowing when to use it, mainly) and then it thrives. I see zero reason to keep Komala in the tier if it all does is bring an uncompetitive element, even if it wasn't broken. It's not like we lose much by not having it, anyways.
 
Hey can anyone explain to me what happened here (a bug maybe)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-601670424

In this replay on turns 17-18, chansey transformed into my mimikyu but when we both attacked each other, the transformed mimikyu didnt have its disguise ability activate and i straight up koed it through the disguise

On a side note, what are peoples opinion on espeon? It looks like it could be a pretty good magic bouncer for offence (sableye/absol suck) with its new coverage in stabmons, plus it can take advantage of the ubiquity of spore/strength sap in this meta finding more opportunities to switch in
Ive been using this set and its been working pretty well for me

Espeon @ Fist Plate
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lovely Kiss
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psystrike
- Judgment

Thanks to eevee, espeon gets an extremely powerful tool in lovely kiss enabling it to neutralize any threat slower than it (including pursuit trappers) and fatter threats such as king shield celesteela/ferrothorn

Hpice is for hitting the common 4x mons everywhere for big damage, psystrike is for powerful stab+ it enables u to beat chansey

And since espeon has access to judgement, it can take advantage of this with fist plate to have a pseudo focus blast that it can fire off with no drawback, nailing common switchins such as ferro, tran, tyranitar and celesteela

Of course, espeon is still frail as crap on the phys side, meaning switching in on a sr/ss from ferrothorn/lando/celesteela is hard if u dont get the prediction right

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-601897628
Ik this isnt the best example since it is at the bottom of the ladder, but it gives u an idea of how espeon can pressure fatter teams with lovely kiss and break it down with its coverage

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-601475972
Again not the best replay, because i didnt add the fist judgment to the movesey yet, but it shows (if i had judgment) espeon would put big pressure on the opponent
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Hey can anyone explain to me what happened here (a bug maybe)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-601670424

In this replay on turns 17-18, chansey transformed into my mimikyu but when we both attacked each other, the transformed mimikyu didnt have its disguise ability activate and i straight up koed it through the disguise

On a side note, what are peoples opinion on espeon? It looks like it could be a pretty good magic bouncer for offence (sableye/absol suck) with its new coverage in stabmons, plus it can take advantage of the ubiquity of spore/strength sap in this meta finding more opportunities to switch in
Ive been using this set and its been working pretty well for me

Espeon @ Fist Plate
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lovely Kiss
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psystrike
- Judgment

Thanks to eevee, espeon gets an extremely powerful tool in lovely kiss enabling it to neutralize any threat slower than it (including pursuit trappers) and fatter threats such as king shield celesteela/ferrothorn

Hpice is for hitting the common 4x mons everywhere for big damage, psystrike is for powerful stab+ it enables u to beat chansey

And since espeon has access to judgement, it can take advantage of this with fist plate to have a pseudo focus blast that it can fire off with no drawback, nailing common switchins such as ferro, tran, tyranitar and celesteela

Of course, espeon is still frail as crap on the phys side, meaning switching in on a sr/ss from ferrothorn/lando/celesteela is hard if u dont get the prediction right

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-601897628
Ik this isnt the best example since it is at the bottom of the ladder, but it gives u an idea of how espeon can pressure fatter teams with lovely kiss and break it down with its coverage

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-601475972
Again not the best replay, because i didnt add the fist judgment to the movesey yet, but it shows (if i had judgment) espeon would put big pressure on the opponent
disguise is hardcoded onto mimikyu in a special way which prevents other mons from being able to use its ability in ANY method, including impostering it. i say it like that because its one of a few abilities alongside comatose(dispite being untrue on showdown, im positive its one), that follows this special rule, as multitype(in a very weird way), forecast etc all can be copied by imposter.
 

Barbaracle @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Head Smash
- Crabhammer
- Cross Chop

Another fun monster meme that i wanted to try since it seemed pretty good on paper and flawed but turned out extremely fun in practice. Access to a much better WATER stab in Crabhammer instead of Razor Shell and gaining a very powerful stab move in Head Smash makes this thing almost an unstoppable force of nature if against a team with it's defensive backbone gone or it doesnt have effective counter-measures. Shell Smash is your primary boosting move and gives you attack +2 which when combined with Tough Claws gives it amazing damage output. After the +2 speed boost it reaches 470 speed which outspeeds the entire non-scarfed metagame and if webs are up it one ups all. Head Smash with the boost from Tough Claws reaches 195 BP move which when coupled with Shell Smash boosts turns this thing into a cold blooded suicide killer since it dies to the incoming recoil anyway. Crabhammer also ohkoes most non-resisted walls and other pokes for huge damage and is a great relief since lando-t which many teams rely on to counter such threats is never a switch-in.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 476-564 (124.6 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 626-738 (155.3 - 183.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 338-398 (95.4 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


Head Smash is the most powerful thing in it's arsenal and also the most risky move it can pull off as the recoil is nasty but this set functions as a Wall-breaker and trust me this thing absolutely annihilates walls and nukes all switch-ins and itself with Head Smash.

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 282-333 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 333-393 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 340-402 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 466-550 (128.3 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 424-499 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 358-423 (85.8 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 382-450 (94.7 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 756-890 (191.8 - 225.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


The final slot is debatable but i personally ran Cross Chop since it helps me take on Ferrothorn and Bewear respectively that can halt it's sweep cold and many teams i encountered are weak to fighting and only have probably 1 switch-in to these attacks.


+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 318-376 (90.3 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (This max def scenario since most sets never fully invest in it)

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 322-380 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


You can also run Accelerock in last slot for priority, Poison Jab for Fairies or whatever move you see fit.

Again this is not some low tier mon advertising or hype post since this Pokemon has a lot of glaring flaws in the metagame as it is very difficult to slap on a team since everything hits it for a decent chunk and it needs favorable amount of support to function properly, despite being resistant to Fake-Speed it still takes a good chunk from the likes of Diggersby and does not have longevity at all since it needs head smash to break things which lead this thing to breaking itself in the process and also hurt by all these random beak blasts running around. Also the set i use which i found most potent relies on low accuracy moves which make it unreliable. I just found this very threatening and fun in testing. Again not a very viable poke, but indeed a barbarian after setup.

 
disguise is hardcoded onto mimikyu in a special way which prevents other mons from being able to use its ability in ANY method, including impostering it. i say it like that because its one of a few abilities alongside comatose(dispite being untrue on showdown, im positive its one), that follows this special rule, as multitype(in a very weird way), forecast etc all can be copied by imposter.
I wasn't aware Comatose was hardwired onto Komala. How did you figure this out?
 

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