Metagame STABmons

A set I've had good results with:

Silvally @ Dark Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Power Trip
- Heal Bell / Amnesia
- Recover

Bulky sweeper designed to clean late game. 2 coils gives Power Trip the power of a STAB Pscyho Boost. Power Trip is the STAB - unlike Stored Power, nothing's immune to it. I prefer Heal Bell, as that lets you deal with status and act as a cleric but Amnesia is a solid option too to boost Special Defence and give Power Trip another 40 BP. Recover keeps Silvally healthy. I went with Dark Silvally as that's immune to Prankster shenanigans.
 
I was waiting so much for this thread.

2 other Mons that got so much more viable with Thousand Arrows and Shore Up - Swampert and Steelix. Both can run a defensive tank Spikes set. Steelix also enjoys a nice buffed Diamond Storm.

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SDef
Impish / Relaxed Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Diamond Storm / Gyro Ball / Roar

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent / Damp
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Steam Eruption
- Shore Up
- Spikes

Araquanid can run a Band / Mystic Water set with Crabhammer / Aqua Jet / Steam Eruption / U-turn, especially with Rain support. Might as well take advantage of the fact that its special water moves are comparable to Specs Keldeo. Heal Order gives it reliable recovery to take advantage of its high defenses as well.

Other things to note are Mach Punch and Ice Shard for Crabominable's much needed priority and First Impression Heracross. Drampa gets Boomburst and Shell Smash (for now), so it'll hit like a truck.
 
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Some really insane mons we have introduced in this gen, as people have mentioned, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, and Silvally are all crazy strong.

Some things I think have been more or less overlooked that are still important, though:

1. Dark Void isn't usable anymore, since it's coded to be Darkrai exclusive. That's a massive kick in the nuts to the likes of Sableye, and it'll be interesting to see how its viability is affected by that.

2. At last, we have Thousand Arrows released. If you thought Lando was good before, hoooooly shit is it ever better now. Landorus, specifically, is helped in a huge way by this, as Thousand Arrows + Brave Bird (iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) scores perfect neutral coverage.

3. Accelerock is a huge boon for Rock. If you thought Aerodactyl was scary before, now think about it being able to 2HKO things like Jolteon and Ice Shard Kyurem-Black with a Priority move if it's banded. And Terrakion? Now the thing can both wallbreak AND clean with its choice band set, with a STAB priority move of a great offensive type off that fantastic 129 Base Attack

4. Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot will be really interesting options for Ghosts and Steels, I feel. An 85 BP Physical Ghost move is nothing to scoff at in its own right, but when coupled with that trapping effect, it could make for some really fun sets, I think. Meanwhile, Anchor Shot sits at 80 BP, and while it's weaker than Meteor Mash, the improved accuracy and utility could definitely make it worthwhile on certain mons.
 
So Arceus Jr. (Silvally) is basically a Mega Smeargle with Multitype. Anyway, I wanted others' thoughts on how this would work in-game and how it should therefore work in the code. It regards the move Burn Up.

Hieracus (Silvally) @ Fire Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Quiver Dance
- Burn Up
- Revelation Dance

Basically, what would happen if Burn Up is used? Would Silvally revert to Normal-type (as is the case with pure Flying-types using Roost from Gen V on), Fire-type again (because RKS system 'reactivates' or something at the end of each turn), or ???-type (as was the case for pure Flying-types using Roost in Gen IV). If the first proposition is true then this set is indeed generic trash, move along folks. If the second proposition is true then this set is still pretty bad but has some merit in allowing unlimited use of Burn Up (which would be more useful on a more all-out attacker set tbh). However, if the third option is true this set gets extremely interesting.

If Revelation Dance is hard-coded to never be ???-type then the set stops here as well. However, if it is able to be ???-type then you basically have a Quiver Dance Sweeper with no resistances :( , no weaknesses :) , and a VERY spammable unresisted STAB attack >:D

All in all, its viability all comes down to in-game mechanics, but I just wanted to throw this out there as it is an interesting situation nonetheless. Gen VII's new mechanics sure have spiced up every metagame lol
 

EV

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Interesting idea Cosmic_Traveler . Perhaps urkerab can offer insight on the strategy.

I was running Ghost Memory Silvally with QD, Moongeist Beam, Secret Sword, and Shore Up. Got the idea from Betathunder . It really wants Taunt to stop Chansey as alas it can't abuse Judgment to become Imposter-proof. Either way, Silvally is shaping up to be the go to splashable anymon this generation.

Tapu Lele is dominating, as expected. Quadruple Psychic resists are your best bet and luckily Mega Metagross is still here to check it otherwise you can run bulky Mega Scizor or Jirachi. Thoughts on any others? And don't say Chansey. Psystrike and Taunt murder it.

What do you use to check Thousand Arrows? Bulky Grasses are generally good unless Landorus-T is attacking. Post others below.
 
IIRC Burn Up, when used by a pure Fire-type makes you have no type meaning that you take neutral damage from everything and are no longer a Fire-type for the purposes of being immune to wisp, etcetera. Also bulky Steels like jirachi or metagross seem to check Lele decently enough, provided they're healthy enough, but for some reason i havent seen much geolele on the ladder.
 

Funbot28

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Tyranitar is a beast this iteration of STABmons mainly due to the new access to a great recovery move in Shore Up that works great in tangent with Sand Stream and the buff to Diamond Storm that now gives +2 Defense boosts as opposed to +1 last gen. This means that Tyranitar can become such a hard wall to take down thanks to Sand already boosting its Special Defense by one, the defense boosts from Diamond Storm and recovery in Shore Up. Dark types also got a universal buff being immune to Prankster moves which means that Tyranitar is no longer affected by Thunder Wave/Taunt from Thundurus or Will-O-Wisp/Parting Shot from Sableye. It even gets access to the new broken ass move in Thousand Arrows which helps DD sets a lot. Here are the sets I have been using:

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Atk / 112 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Diamond Storm
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Diamond Storm
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance


Really could see this mon be a top tier threat this gen, sadly we dont have access to Mega Tyranitar tho (actually that might have been a good thing...)

/


As others have already stated, Ground types in general got a massive boost this gen with Thousand Arrows as the move basically ahs zero drawback to it and especially allows top tier threat last gen in Landorus-T have perfect neutral coverage in conjunction with its Flying STAB. Mega Garchomp also becomes incredibly scary as Bulky DD sets no longer get walled by much due to Tarrows + its bulk letting it setup on many things. I have personally been running Grass types such as Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu to counter Garchomp. but haven't found anything for Lando-T yet.....

Garchomp-Mega @ Garchompite
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Shore Up

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Ascent
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Earth Plate
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Ascent
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish




Ok so many STABmon players probably already know that I have a Bibarel addiction, after Acpressure was banned I thought that my poor Beaver friend lost its niche, but fortunately this gen brought the creation of Z-moves, in particular in Z Celebrate..... With Z Celebrate and Simple, Bibarel could now gain +2 stats across the board in one turn. This turns Bibarel into a formidable threat as it also has access to Water moves which compliments Normal-type greatly. Here is the set I have been using and other should too tbh:

Bibarel @ Normalium Z
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Celebrate
- Extreme Speed
- Crabhammer
- Recover


General meta commentary:
  • Geomancy Tapu Lele is a bitch to face, but is probably manageable with Steels. Still can become such a nuisance especially late game.
  • Silvally is literally insane as I predicted. Generally you can kinda know which set its gonna run depending on its type but still has so many lure options.
  • Rotom-W is legit so good due to themechanics change. It could now beat Ferrothorn lol.
  • Choice Band Tapu Koko is amazing and more people should run it.
  • Mega Garchomp and Mega Venasaur are probably the two best megas right now.
  • Anchor Shot Celesteela is annoying af on stall teams.
  • Sylveon has a hard time adjusting to -ate nerf and Tapu Lele kinda kills it a bit.
  • Diggersby is still king of format and got even better with Tarrows.
This meta is so fun right now and more players should play it before we lose our ladder :(

Edit: Also wanted to add another core that is pretty hard to beat:

&

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf / Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Trick / Taunt

Pheromosa @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Aura Sphere
- Bug Buzz
- Ice Beam

Set up Psychic Terrain with Lele and sweep with Pheromosa. Its that simple.
 
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Bibarel @ White Herb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Extreme Speed
- Crabhammer
- Crunch

A straightforward Bibarel set, same as it was in Gen 6 before Shell Smash was banned. It's pretty similar to the one Funbot28 posted, but it exchanges improved defenses for even more power and speed. Normal, Water and Dark have perfect neutral coverage. It's also tricky to revenge kill without wearing it down first, as it can tank a Fake Out and threaten the other mon with a faster and stronger Extreme Speed
 

Betathunder

alphalightning
I've been looking at type: Null a lot recently. It's basically a fatter p2 and can function as a wall or a bulky sweeper. I've been using the transey set a lot but I've also toyed with bulky sd
 
Like Arceus-*, Silvally-Fire's type is locked, meaning that it can keep spamming Burn Up to its heart's content (other Pokémon are usually limited to one per switch in).

If you want a typeless Revelation Dance, you need to Burn Up using a Pokémon with a primary Fire type, so that only gives you the options of Oricorio-Baile (who learns Revelation Dance naturally and Burn Up through STABmons) or Pyroar.

Pyroar could even go one step further and use Conversion so that it can use Burn Up again. After that, it becomes pure ???-type, so it's not even weak to Fighting, although it's no longer immune to Ghost.
 

Squawkerz

Torchic is best mon
I have a question, for a Physical Defensive Landorus-Therian, which is better, Shore Up Or Roost? Shore Up has a chance to heal more HP, but Roost reduces the Ice Type weakness.
 
I have a question, for a Physical Defensive Landorus-Therian, which is better, Shore Up Or Roost? Shore Up has a chance to heal more HP, but Roost reduces the Ice Type weakness.
Shore Up is better. Tyranitar is common thanks to the new stuff it has (power Trip, Thousand Arrows, etc.) and the extra recovery you get is very noticable and appreciated when you're continuously switching in and out. Roost negating your Ice weakness is negligible imo as most Ice attacks clean OHKO Lando-T anyway, and mons that carry Ice Punch as coverage for Lando (like metagross) outspeed anyway so you can't Roost on them.
 

EV

sksksksk
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Hey guys! The Council is hosting a suspect tour tonight in the OM room at 8pm Eastern time. Join us to test out the metagame with the following elements banned:
  • Geomancy
  • Shell Smash
  • Shift Gear
  • Metagrossite
  • Thousand Arrows
Afterward the Council will hold a vote on what to quick ban. I hope to see you there!

Tagging Betathunder ihhca ellipse

Finals - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-489856815
 
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Betathunder

alphalightning
After judging the metagame for the past couple of days and seeing how it played out in the suspect tour that was earlier, the council has decided to ban:
- Shell Smash
- Metagrossite
- Geomancy
- Shift Gear,
and
- Thousand Arrows
(The votes for each were 3-0-1, as ellipse abstained from voting)
Thank you for your participation in the tour, tagging The Immortal to implement these changes to the ladder.
 
Rip Tarrows, you will be missed somewhat
Although Zygarde now really appreciates being the only Ground-type that can nail Skarm with a STAB.
 

EV

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Let's talk about Ghosts, particularly Ghost sweepers.

STABmons ORAS was low on viable Ghosts, with Sableye and Gengar being the most used. There were no sweepers, but that changes now. The biggest selling point? An immunity to regular FakeSpeed and a lack of Scrappy FakeSpeed on the ladder, particularly with the loss of Mega Lopunny. Let's examine a few sweepers making a splash so far in the metagame.


I won't hide my affection; I'm in love with Silvally. I came up with Betathunder told me about a Ghost set he was rocking and I quickly stole it. Of all my wins so far in SM, if Tapu Lele didn't pull a sweep it was this guy. In a match versus Kris last night it still managed to sweep even while paralyzed (but that speaks more to the new para mechanics imo).

I'm running Quiver Dance / Moongeist Beam / Secret Sword / Shore Up with max Special Attack and the rest in Speed. Absorb Scald burns so you can avoid a more detrimental status. Once it gets going, not even Unaware can stop it thanks to MBeam.


Wait! That's not a Ghost! Well if you've played SM OU yet you know it's really a Ghost in disguise. Z-Conversion will turn PZ into a Ghost if you put Shadow Ball in the first moveslot. The Z-move also gives PZ +1 in every stat. This Pokemon lacks the perfect dual coverage of the above example, but what you can't hit with an Adaptability Shadow Ball you can hit with Boomburst, which you should be using throughout the match before you have the opportunity to Z-convert.

PZ is a one-and-done sweeper, so make sure the pathway is clear before you begin.


Speaking of disguises, I saw a cool Mimikyu set during the suspect tour last night that takes advantage of the free Disguise turn to set up a Z-move of its own. Mimikyu has access to Trick-or-Treat, which like Conversion will grant +1 to all stats, but unlike Conversion it doesn't change Mimikyu's type. Instead, it adds Ghost to the target! This means Mimikyu can now fire off a boosted Shadow Bone against a target with Ghost-typing for a super-effective hit. It also carries Play Rough for solid dual STAB coverage. The last move is open for customization.

Mimikyu should also be saved for later in the match when extra bulky walls are gone, as Disguise only works once per battle.

So there are 3 examples of Ghost sweepers in SM STABmons. Are there any others you've seen? Have you seen any other types take on sweeper roles that were less common or non existent last gen? Share!
 
Silvally @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up
- Imprison
- Transform

This is my favourite meme. It just beats stuff like Hippowdon, lots of water types, really anything passive enough on the switch. It's also Silvally so it has the advantage of being any type if you like, or just having a lot of surprise factor. The fact that it just ruins a lot of defensive mons 1v1 can really force your opponent's hand sometimes, not to mention it can also do a little bit of damage if need be. Really struggles with Rotom-X though, as it just Volt Switches out.


Gengar @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Trick-or-Treat
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

This is my other favourite meme. Hoopa-U can run a similar set, but Gengar is better for the FakeSpeed immunity. It's kinda outclassed by spooky silvally but having better stats+type is kinda neat. The real epic part is Z-Trick-or-Treat, which raises all stats by one stage while making the opponent a ghost type, letting you hit them super effectively with Moongeist Beam (unless you would rather hit them with Focus Blast in which case you just royally fucked yourself). If need be you can just nuke something with Neverending Nightmare. Not particularly effective but fun.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Is Thousand Arrows actually broken? This might be more of a problem with the abusers than the move. Pokemon like Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Excadrill and Mamoswine are without a doubt the strongest users of the move seeing as their secondary stab is resisted by steel types. I'd much rather prefer testing these pokemon instead of banning the move - atleast suspect it. And I don't feel like Shift gear is all that bad either, especially when you already banned Metagrossite.

This is Stabmons, moves are the core of the metagame and I think TA was banned a bit hastily. Thoughts+
 

Kris

ungabunga
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Is Thousand Arrows actually broken? This might be more of a problem with the abusers than the move. Pokemon like Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Excadrill and Mamoswine are without a doubt the strongest users of the move seeing as their secondary stab is resisted by steel types. I'd much rather prefer testing these pokemon instead of banning the move - atleast suspect it. And I don't feel like Shift gear is all that bad either, especially when you already banned Metagrossite.

This is Stabmons, moves are the core of the metagame and I think TA was banned a bit hastily. Thoughts+
I mean I don't think it's overzealous to ban a move that is broken on numerous users, kind of like how they said in the OP that the council is banning moves they deem broken or uncompetitive before going off into a spiral and banning a plethora that use the move instead of just banning the broken element first. Shift Gear was not just broken on Mega Metagross, mind you. On mobile so I'll post more later.
 

Betathunder

alphalightning
Is Thousand Arrows actually broken? This might be more of a problem with the abusers than the move. Pokemon like Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Excadrill and Mamoswine are without a doubt the strongest users of the move seeing as their secondary stab is resisted by steel types. I'd much rather prefer testing these pokemon instead of banning the move - atleast suspect it. And I don't feel like Shift gear is all that bad either, especially when you already banned Metagrossite.

This is Stabmons, moves are the core of the metagame and I think TA was banned a bit hastily. Thoughts+

The problem with tarrows is quite simply it hits everything. Ground is only resisted by two types, bug and grass, which can easily be handled by other coverage moves. This gives all ground types a major buff, since tarrows completely eliminates the immunity that flying types/levitate users had, which is primarily how ground types are dealt with (namely defensive lando-t, skarm, and now celesteela). Therefore, it seems pointless to suspect/ban all the ground types, so we banned what made them so potent, which is tarrows.
 

EV

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What Kris said.

Our philosophy changed last gen when I began putting moves up for ban. STABmons is a moves metagame so our primary focus is weeding out broken moves early then moving on to Pokemon. AAA takes this approach with abilities and MnM with mega stones. There are always exceptions, such as our banning of Metagrossite in the first round, but generally we'd rather kill a move rather than 3-5 Pokemon.

Now, I was hesitant about TA too. For the perk of bypassing Ground's immunities you have to use a mediocre 90 base power move (as opposed to the meaty 120 bp Pblades we all ran last gen). However, the main offenders all carry other tools that invalidate checks trying to absorb the Ground move. Tapu Bulu dies to Poison Jab Garchomp, Dragon Ascent Lando, Sunsteel Strike Excadrill, and even Diggersby's (forget about me?) Normal coverage. Dhelmise, Gourgeist (not even that good), Mega Venu and Celebi don't resist or are weak to coverage like Dragon, Flying, Steel, and Dark. Walls that usually take neutral coverage (the Grounds (Lando-T, Hippo, Mudsdale), Ferrothorn, bulky Mega Scizor, etc) aren't doing enough back fast enough most of the time to contain the threats bar phazing or status/Seed (pray for no Sub), leaving bulky Waters as some of the better checks overall.

Shift Gear breaks Mega Scizor and Kartana and makes Excadrill, Bisharp, Silvally, Celesteela, and other Steels I'm not remembering atm need more coffee. Fast Steels are already difficult to revenge and are nearly impossible to check with FakeSpeed. We don't really need another tool that puts them above and beyond the capabilities of the metagame to contain runaway threats.

Anyway I see I took too long to post and beta sniped.
 

ihhca

STABman
Is Thousand Arrows actually broken? This might be more of a problem with the abusers than the move. Pokemon like Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Excadrill and Mamoswine are without a doubt the strongest users of the move seeing as their secondary stab is resisted by steel types. I'd much rather prefer testing these pokemon instead of banning the move - atleast suspect it. And I don't feel like Shift gear is all that bad either, especially when you already banned Metagrossite.

This is Stabmons, moves are the core of the metagame and I think TA was banned a bit hastily. Thoughts+
I was a bit on the fence about voting ban for Thousand Arrows, so I'll give my thoughts on the matter. At first glance 1k Arrows doesn't seem like a broken move. All it does is make ground moves more spammable since nothing is immune to them. It's also less powerful than Precipice Blades and Earthquake and doesn't trap like 1k Waves. This seems like a reasonable trade-off on paper, but I found it much more difficult to deal with the abusers in practice.

Scarf Lando has perfect neutral coverage STABs alongside U-Turn and Knock Off to easily whittle switchins. Rotom, Celesteela, and Skarm (3 of the hardest counters available) are not even checks anymore since they all get 2hko'd. In my mind, this leaves Ferrothorn, (M)-Slowbro, and Defensive Lando left as the only viable defensive answers. The first two are more precarious than you might think: Standard Ferro takes 44.6 - 52.8% from adamant DA, and Slowbro takes 40.6 - 47.9%. Both of them could get 2hko'd after rocks. Mega-Bro and Lando have a bit of an easier time against DA/1K coverage, but mega bro can't deal with Uturn at all, and Defensive Lando is forced to Roost every time since it gets 3HKO'd easily. This ignores the fact that stronger sets like double dance, band, soft sand, etc exist.

Mega Garchomp with DD/Shore Up/1K Arrows/(Poison Jab/Sub) or even just Lum or LO Garchomp with the same set is monstrous. I built around it at the start of the metagame and it honestly has very few flaws at all. Defensive Lando and Ferrothorn get demolished by Sub variants. Grass/Fairy types have to think twice about switching in lest the get 1 shot by poison jab. It's strong enough to just 2hko quag with a 90 BP STAB move.

I could keep enumerating why these pokemon are difficult to deal with, but I won't. I really thought they were centralizing. I couldn't justify not bringing max-def ferrothorn on every team, since in my mind it's the strongest answer to most of these threats. I decided that since they all had one thing in common, it would be better to just deal with that than suspect them all individually.

I mean I don't think it's overzealous to ban a move that is broken on numerous users, kind of like how they said in the OP that the council is banning moves they deem broken or uncompetitive before going off into a spiral and banning a plethora that use the move instead of just banning the broken element first. Shift Gear was not just broken on Mega Metagross, mind you. On mobile so I'll post more later.
You're going to be hard-pressed to justify how Shift Gear M-Metagross was not broken. It's the most broken thing in all of STABmons ever, end of story. It 2hko's Mega Bro at +1 with Thunder Punch. It 2hko's Skarm with +1 Thunder Punch. It OHKOs Celesteela with +1 Thunder Punch. It OHKOs Heatran with EQ or Hammer Arm. It OHKOs Ferro with Hammer Arm. It OHKOs Lando and Garchomp with Ice Punch. It 2HKOs Rotom with +0 Zen Headbutt. It sets up on 95% of the metagame and resists almost all common forms of priority. It's so fast that you can just run just 16 speed and outpace scarf Keldeo at +2. It checks monsters like Aero, every fairy, every normal type, etc. Even if metagrossite goes, there are so many steels to fill its shoes. We went over this last gen, and I think that steels have gotten stronger this gen with the rise of fairies.

You're welcome to make your case, but you can also just read the old thread for why Shift Gear and Metagrossite are both broken irrespective of the other.
 
Yeah if anything Mega Metagross is even more broken now as it can bypass Unaware with Sunsteel Strike (although Heavy Slam and Gear Grind are usually better). Silvally is incredible, it basically shows how good Smeargle would be if it got, you know, usable base stats.

I'm also seeing more people on the STABmons ladder since the Shift Gear, Thousand Arrows and Mega Metagross bans.
 
I was a bit on the fence about voting ban for Thousand Arrows, so I'll give my thoughts on the matter. At first glance 1k Arrows doesn't seem like a broken move. All it does is make ground moves more spammable since nothing is immune to them. It's also less powerful than Precipice Blades and Earthquake and doesn't trap like 1k Waves. This seems like a reasonable trade-off on paper, but I found it much more difficult to deal with the abusers in practice.

Scarf Lando has perfect neutral coverage STABs alongside U-Turn and Knock Off to easily whittle switchins. Rotom, Celesteela, and Skarm (3 of the hardest counters available) are not even checks anymore since they all get 2hko'd. In my mind, this leaves Ferrothorn, (M)-Slowbro, and Defensive Lando left as the only viable defensive answers. The first two are more precarious than you might think: Standard Ferro takes 44.6 - 52.8% from adamant DA, and Slowbro takes 40.6 - 47.9%. Both of them could get 2hko'd after rocks. Mega-Bro and Lando have a bit of an easier time against DA/1K coverage, but mega bro can't deal with Uturn at all, and Defensive Lando is forced to Roost every time since it gets 3HKO'd easily. This ignores the fact that stronger sets like double dance, band, soft sand, etc exist.

Mega Garchomp with DD/Shore Up/1K Arrows/(Poison Jab/Sub) or even just Lum or LO Garchomp with the same set is monstrous. I built around it at the start of the metagame and it honestly has very few flaws at all. Defensive Lando and Ferrothorn get demolished by Sub variants. Grass/Fairy types have to think twice about switching in lest the get 1 shot by poison jab. It's strong enough to just 2hko quag with a 90 BP STAB move.

I could keep enumerating why these pokemon are difficult to deal with, but I won't. I really thought they were centralizing. I couldn't justify not bringing max-def ferrothorn on every team, since in my mind it's the strongest answer to most of these threats. I decided that since they all had one thing in common, it would be better to just deal with that than suspect them all individually.



You're going to be hard-pressed to justify how Shift Gear M-Metagross was not broken. It's the most broken thing in all of STABmons ever, end of story. It 2hko's Mega Bro at +1 with Thunder Punch. It 2hko's Skarm with +1 Thunder Punch. It OHKOs Celesteela with +1 Thunder Punch. It OHKOs Heatran with EQ or Hammer Arm. It OHKOs Ferro with Hammer Arm. It OHKOs Lando and Garchomp with Ice Punch. It 2HKOs Rotom with +0 Zen Headbutt. It sets up on 95% of the metagame and resists almost all common forms of priority. It's so fast that you can just run just 16 speed and outpace scarf Keldeo at +2. It checks monsters like Aero, every fairy, every normal type, etc. Even if metagrossite goes, there are so many steels to fill its shoes. We went over this last gen, and I think that steels have gotten stronger this gen with the rise of fairies.

You're welcome to make your case, but you can also just read the old thread for why Shift Gear and Metagrossite are both broken irrespective of the other.
Yeah if anything Mega Metagross is even more broken now as it can bypass Unaware with Sunsteel Strike (although Heavy Slam and Gear Grind are usually better). Silvally is incredible, it basically shows how good Smeargle would be if it got, you know, usable base stats.

I'm also seeing more people on the STABmons ladder since the Shift Gear, Thousand Arrows and Mega Metagross bans.
You guys are misreading Kris' post. He said that it wasn't just broken on mega Metagross, which means that it was broken on other things as well (probably kartana, Scizor, etc)
Also, just about 0 reason to use zen headbut metagross, ihhca- you shouldn't rely on flinches.
 

Funbot28

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I also feel that the Thousand Arrows ban was justified due to the fact that it offered such a low risk/high reward factor akin to how King's Shield functions. In a sense, it offered Ground setup sweepers the ability to not require that much prediction as the move just offers so little drawback and hits most of the meta for neutral damage apart from things like Celebi and Tangrowth which are both rather uncommon atm. While we could have maybe just banned Garchomp and maybe Landorus-T since they were the best users of the move, I feel that the move offers inherent broken aspects to it to warrant a ban. Also, we can still see the affects that the move has on our green lizard friend that still gains access to the move + new recovery in Shore Up (basically a weaker but still effective Garchomp):


Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute / Dragon Tail
- Shore Up


Also wanted to post a a great Magearna set that I have been using on ladder to sweep teams:


Magearna @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Play Rough
- Sunsteel Strike
- Aura Sphere


Shift Gear Magearna is amazing now with Mega Metagross and Shift Gear Mega Scizor out of the picture. Steel / Fairy is quite good offensively and I decided to run Z Aura Sphere to lure in counters like Heatran and Ferrothorn and helps Magearna deal with physical walls due to the Soul Heart boosts it gains. Really fun set that I encourage more players to run.
 

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