STAB STABmons

so this might seem like a noob question, probably because i'm a noob here and it's a question. would a whimsicott with prankster, cotton guard+strength sap, and rocky helmet be decent in this format? from what i understand, this is a pretty offense-oriented metagame, but i think it might have a smidge of merit as a way to punish physical attackers.
Probably wouldn't be that good, while it could in theory sort of wall some Physical attackers, it's still easily defeated by a few common ones. It's also entirely defeated by the (even if not super super common) Darkrai who outspeeds, and can drop it with a Sludge Bomb while being immune to Prankster Status due to it's Dark typing.

Malignant Chain Toxapex also defeats it with Zero investment, and even if MC Tox is a bit rarer of a set, Mortal Spin threatens still by being 4x effective and Poisoning. It also loses to Kingambit who is immune to Prankster and can SD infront of it, similar thing with Greninja too who can use Gunk Shot to kill and outspeed. Weavile is also immune to Prankster and doesn't make contact with Glacial Lance, though Moonblast can scare it off. It basically has nothing for most Special attackers other then sacking itself for a Stun Spore, dies to many of the tiers Dark types without posing much of a threat, and can't do much about Status.
 
https://pokepast.es/6427f7fb56fa7eb7
https://pokepast.es/f44da146505088f0

I have made a bunch of STABmon teams but these two are by far my favourite to use.
The first team is just a standard offense team with a regencore. It got me to peak at123rd on ladder which I found cool. The main issue I found was a weakness to dragon type wall breakers (walking wake or Kyurem) and then i made the second team

Fezandipiti is really nice to use, with the bulk and AV in the pokepaste, it can take 3 hits from max health Water Spout from Walking Wake, it can take a lot of special damage and with Alo to heal through wish, it felt solid. Sadly tho i didn't get the same result.
 
Metagame Changes - Bans
OMPL and time have shown that there are problems within STABmons that need addressing in some form, the following Pokemon were all voted on and the majority agreed were broken enough to be removed from the metagame without a suspect test.


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Kyurem lost Roost this gen yet it's potency within STABmons is unquestionable, boasting amazing 130 special and physical base attack, on top of gaining access to moves such as Glacial Lance, Dragon Energy, Dragon Glaive, Dragon Darts, Clanging Scales, and its natural moveset has proved to be too much for the metagame. Defensive answers are few and far between in the current meta as it is capable of running sweeping sets, breaking sets, and more due to it's perfect offensive mixture of attack and special attack. Even defensively, Kyurem, despite its losses is still capable of pulling off sub leftover sets that abuse Pressure due to its base 125 HP and 90 base defensive stats. It's primary weakness is it's typing as it is hazard weak but in the grand scheme of things this is a mere hinderance for it. Potential answers such as Scizor aren't common and the general lack of switchins often results in having to sack a Pokemon just to bring in a scarfer or faster Pokemon to either scare it out or KO it. As a whole, Kyurem is a behemoth not all that disimilar to Baxcalibur physically but just as capable specially and as a result it is banned.

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The next ban, Gouging Fire shares similar characteristics to Kyurem, this being that they are both bulky dragons with setup potential and are hazard weak. In contrast though, Fire/Dragon is a much better defensive typing and its natural access to Morning Sun means it is capable of better abusing it's bulk. What it gains in STABmons includes powerful moves such as Pyro Ball, Sacred Fire, Dragon Glaive, and Dragon Darts all of which are appreciated as they lack the recoil that hurts the longevity of normal Gouging Fires meaning revenge killing is made much harder is it won't be left at low HP after a series of KOs. While Pyro Ball provides upfront KO potential, Sacred Fire punishes switchins that lack Covert Cloak with burns, the choice between Glaive Rush or Dragon Darts comes down to indidivual preference and though it lacks a lot of coverage options aside from Earthquake, its typing basically means there are few answers. Taken as a whole, Gouging Fire is a immensely scary Pokemon whether that be Dragon Dancing Booster Energy sets or other sets as there are no answers that see common play and it is fully capable of taking down most teams with ease, as a result it is banned.

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The final ban of the day is Lilligant-Hisui whose primary claim to fame is a combination of Victory Dance, Hustle, and Flower Trick the combination of which hits extremely hard, it being fighting type and also having the necessary coverage to hit most answers means it is an extremely threatening presence. This sweeper is fully capable of dismantling teams when given the opportunity yet it isn't without answers as grass typing is not a great offensive coverage and as a result it is forced to rely on it's fighting type or coverage slot to answer some Pokemon and risk missing due to Hustle though this is mostly just a slight downside as the power justifies the miss chance. The most meta relevant answer is without a doubt one of the following Corviknight, Skarmory, and defensive Gholdengo though the latter necessitates it being defensive as otherwise it risks between 2hko by Flower Trick if Life Orb. In spite this, Lilligant-Hisui remains just as threatening as it was the last time it was targetted and for practically the same reason, it is now banned.

As an annecdote, there was discussion about looking into Flower Trick as the source of the problem and it being banned would dampen the potency and reliability of Lilligant-Hisui and potentially open the door for an Ogerpon-Wellspring unban and prevent the other Ogerpons from being potential targets down the line. I've argued instead that in the case of Ogerpon-Wellspring Flower Trick is only a part of the problem and other moves would prove just as problematic on it whether that be Grav Apple or simply relying on Power Whip. In the case of Ogerpons it is their massive movepools and the effects of the masks that bolster their abilities, with Wellspring being the most powerful due to its defensive typing being the least flawed and most helpful. If after this is all said and done stuff like Rillaboom are banned then discussions of Flower Trick will probably be reopened but until then it is doubtful that Flower Trick will be suspected or banned even if another Ogerpon gets yeeted from the tier.

That is all in terms of bans.

This is being said, there will likely be an Electro Shot suspect in the coming days so stay tuned!

Pinging dhelmise for implementation of the bans of Gouging Fire, Kyurem, and Lilligant-Hisui.
 
Finally.. I can use AlomoGuss and not worry about Kyurem or Gouging Fire. Kyurem's insane breaking power with specs led to me making this weird Fezandipiti set.

Fezandipiti (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpD
Careful Nature
- Mortal Spin
- U-turn
- Barb Barrage
- Magical Torque

Literally bad into anything other than special attackers, though I might use it again cuz it does have cool utility.
Electro Shot is such a crazy move too ngl
 
-Writing this as i'm getting the necesarry reqs-

I think Electro Shot is a very broken move that needs to be banned.In starndard play, the only mon that can actually use is Arch, (which was banned from ou), however here it's a whole different story.Now every electric type mon gets it.Thundy gets it, Rbolt gets it, Zapdos gets it, even magnezone can sometimes use it if needed.Basically, it makes rain teams have some absurd breaking power( as if they didn't already) and enables the mons i gave as examples to get out of control and snowball very fast.With ogerpon and latios banned, rain has lost two of its best counters and now has become( in my opinion at least) one of the best archtypes in this tier.All in all, i think it's a very good thing e-shot is getting looked at and i will be voting ban once i'm done with reqs
 
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Dragon Energy is Restricted in STABmons & Latios is Unbanned once more!
The council unanimously agreed that Dragon Energy is fundamentally broken due to a variety of factors from the strong users such as Raging Bolt and Walking Wake to the lacking number of switchins what with fairies being limited for the most part to Iron Valiant. The move has such strong nuking potential that in spite of its downsides we all felt it was just far to much for the tier and would've led to other bans down the road. With this we decided to give Latios one more college try as it was the best abuser of Dragon Energy and will be watching it closely in the coming weeks to months.

On another note we will be holding a general survey and a vet'd survey directed at STABmons OMPL players to get an idea of how to address the problems within the tier.
 
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Dragon Energy is Restricted in STABmons & Latios is Unbanned once more!
The council unanimously agreed that Dragon Energy is fundamentally broken due to a variety of factors from the strong users such as Raging Bolt and Walking Wake to the lacking number of switchins what with fairies being limited for the most part to Iron Valiant. The move has such strong nuking potential that in spite of its downsides we all felt it was just far to much for the tier and would've led to other bans down the road. With this we decided to give Latios one more college try as it was the best abuser of Dragon Energy and will be watching it closely in the coming weeks to months.

On another note we will be holding a general survey and a vet'd survey directed at STABmons OMPL players to get an idea of how to address the problems within the tier.
Why did hatterene use protect against a dragon move, is it stupid?
 
Just gonna drop my teams, so no fancy post. Expect a post in the near future from me about my thoughts on the meta.

Week 1: https://pokepast.es/7645808becc1622c
Week 2: https://pokepast.es/36dd731d377d4160
Week 3: https://pokepast.es/cb676785b1fc2ca9
Week 4: https://pokepast.es/d1155d95bebc7dd2
Week 5: https://pokepast.es/34cb225b7f0782c0
Week 6: https://pokepast.es/1aa9483d6bc8e854
Week 7: https://pokepast.es/2289b10908232187
Semis: https://pokepast.es/03a273f414a8915d
FINALS: https://pokepast.es/c0c984e2623238e5

EDIT: I should probably mention these teams are BAD!!! Every team I build is only designed to win once and is built very much with what my opponent plays with in mind.

EDIT 2: I should also mention this OMPL's theme was berries. I tried to use as many berries as possible. I managed to use a berry every week except Semis since it didn't make sense on stall. I am happy I managed to proc a berry every week iirc.
 
Ok so I'm going to talk about the meta the only way I know how...biased gross oversimplifications. So I've been looking at old stab threads to see what old metas looked like cause people seemed to like those, and the old metas (to me) appeared to have actually good defensive options. I'll have gen 9 and gen 8 from S-A with marks roughly signifying offensive or defensive (red = off. blue = def.)

gen 8.PNG
gen 9.PNG
What does this mean to me?
The less answers a mon has, the better it is (groundbreaking discovery). Lets talk about Gen 8 offense. It had Aerodactyl. A fast mon that had good enough coverage and had 2 great STAB attacks in Head Smash and Brave Bird. There were rock answers in Ferro, Muds, Rune, toad, drill, melmetal. Corv and Cele can take a BB but not so much HS, Bro could technically take BB, rotom wash is a predict, hell we even had Runerigus to wandering spirit rock head. Aero was a threat, but multiple mons existed to keep it in line. Buzzwole with Bug and Fighting STAB having a tough time to break through Clef (even P-Jab was unreliable because unaware and you lose a very important move slot), it would get chipped down by rocky helmet mons like toad and muds, if you run ice punch to deal with the grounds like rune, then you cant hit bro or tapu fini, but t-punch cant hit the grounds. Buzz on Buzz violence was very real as well (just click toxic on the no retreat and roost up). No retreat being its best setup move made it a sitting duck for faster scarf mons that can just ko it (latios, victini). Alright that's enough you get the picture. There was plenty of offense, but also a variety of answers (that could check more than one type of thing. This is the most crucial part!).

This doesn't apply as nicely for Gen 9 (not our fault some of the biggest cuts were defensive options while offense got off scot-free). So most of the best defensive options Gen 9 has to offer are ground types (lando-t. ting, tusk, gliscor, and clod). We have water types in pex, rotom-wash, slow twins and maybeeeee dozo. We got steels in Ghold, tran, corv, and skarm. When I say ground, water, and steel what do you think of? I think of Water, Grass, and Fire.

Water:

Water is the best offensive type in the meta. Wake, Palafin, Barra, Volcanion, Urshifu RS, Gren, Keld, rotom-wash, gyara, cloyster. Water is not only the best offensive type, it is also one of the best defensive types as well since it also resists Water. What else resists water and beats ground? Grass

Grass:

Not gonna lie, grass is being hard carried by the 3 ogers and rilla. There are a few other stuff like meow, zarude, sinistcha, and apple, but the ogers are running the show. Things start to break down here cause what beats grass and steel? Fire.

Fire:

Fire isn't too much of an issue because of Water, but the problem is that the best fire types also fit into the other categories I previously discussed. Volc is also a water threat, ogerpon is also a grass threat, and tran is also a defensive steel.

This is basically the most complicated rock-paper-scissors game ever. The offensive mons beat the defensive mons and check the offensive mons, and the defensive mons beat the other defensive mons and check the offensive mons. This leaves 2 options: either overwhelm the defense with enough offense of 1 or 2 types OR introduce new types that you can't afford to check becuase you then can't check the water and grass types. Dragons aren't just dragons, they are very much their secondary typing. Wake turns into a water for the steels and bolt turns into electric for the steels. Fighting types get to skip this game by just gambiting anything they cant beat or get to set up and sweep everything else. Dark types either become a sweeper of their secondary typying or they just click edge or knock.

What does this mean?

It means that if we want more defensive options, we gotta remove the grass and waters. We can't be devoting this many resources to two types. We don't need to ban the mons (cause we'd have to ban all of them), just the moves. I'm starting to hate writing this post so I'm speeding up here in the end.

The moves the mons and the items:

What moves would I ban?
  1. Water Shuriken
  2. Jet Punch
  3. Surging Strikes
  4. Flower Trick
  5. Ceaseless Edge
  6. Stone Axe
  7. Glacial Lance
  8. Astral Barrage
  9. Final Gambit
  10. Wicked Torque
  11. Combat Torque
  12. Magical Torque
What mons would I ban?

  1. Gholdengo
  2. Kingambit (Suspect)
  3. Ogerpon-Hearthflame (Suspect)
What items would I ban?

  1. None (if all the water moves got restricted)
  2. Damp Rock (If any water moves survive)
What do these bans do?

The water and grass moves are the most dominant force of offense and these bans will slow things down a bit. Priority is always a bad idea historically (not only in stabmons, but in basically all move based metas) so shuriken and jet gotta go. Strikes and flower auto-crit which is not fair (bypasses intim and any setup defensively). Edge and axe set hazards which is too good in a slower meta (which we are tyring to make). Lance and astral are just 120 bp with no downside (self explanitory). Final Gambit i am just going to paste what Astralydia said last gen since it works here too "Final Gambit is kinda awkward in a metagame with few Ghosts - they can make otherwise weak mons in balance matchups like Keldeo or Buzzwole instantly threatening if they are not needed as speed control. Though this does not necessarily make Final Gambit broken as a singular move, it does significantly increase the viability of many mons that would otherwise suffer with hard answers, like the aforementioned Urshifu-R. The simple potential to lure an important defensive mon with something like Buzzwole (or even Kommo-o, as I've toyed with a bit) is fairly unhealthy as is." The torque moves all have bullshit secondary effects and no-contact. By getting rid of these, we make Burning Bulwark, Beak Blast, and rocky helmet do what they are supposed to do (help defensive play). Blazing Torque can stay (he's cool). The Ghold ban is important because it just stops all relevant hazard removing. No rapid spin, no mortal spin, no defog (fuck hazard stack spam) and it's a ghost type that gets to actually threaten TTar outside of focus blast. Enough said. I hate gambit and I think it can just get away with anything, but it ain't beating a zama or tusk or hands. And thats the point of these bans, to let the defensive stuff breath so we can check more things. Ogerpon-H has all the coverage it needs, a great ability, and SD. Even with a flower ban, it still can rip holes in teams. Rain is fine if we take out all the broken water moves. If any stay we gotta get rid of the rock so rain returns back to the matchup fish (get it? fish live in water) it deserves to be.

EDIT: I figured I'd bring this up since FC mentioned it in discord, but I am in favor of allowing both Lugia and Solgaleo into the tier.
 
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Fissure has inspired me to post instead of just sending all this on discord so I will send my thoughts on the meta rn. I made a really long post in council chat, everything in hide tags will be almost directly copy pasted from it. I said exactly this in council chat as well: I think a lot of the issues taken with this tier just kinda comes down to sv being a really poorly balanced gen fundamentally. that does make it an issue to tier but I think we should be very proactive now that we had a lot of the highest level games during pl. Issues mentioned are not in order of importance.

issue 1: dragons
I have a screenshot linked, but in that it basically shows that literally 2 of the dragons are legal in the image (latios isn't there but is banned too), with wake also being controversial and a lot of people wanting it banned. I'm indifferent on this but it's very polarizing. The fact that we have so many dragons banned makes it really difficult to deal with a lot of threats. Flower trick is insane especially on rillaboom, rain is super strong but slightly worse without eshot, sun isn't used much but I've tried it and it's super strong too, etc. The fairies this gen kinda suck on bulkier teams, clef is okay but prone to being muscled through then it's like hatt and valiant which are offense mons. Due to this I think it would be fair to do 2 things, one being banning dragon energy, and the second being banning glacial lance. This could allow latios and kyurem back into the tier as well as make wake less controversial. A hard dragon dance ban is also insane to type out but it genuinely makes like 10+ mons essentially broken. The public would probably dislike the optics but I think it's one of the least balanced parts of sv where all these guys get dd then their stabs to abuse it.

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issue 2: final gambit
in earlier weeks in ompl and also in seasonal there have been double or even triple final gambit teams just into HO mons. With the high power of the average offense mon this move can be absurd, you can hardly switch into stuff like tusk, zama, val, shifu etc with ghosts and final gambit just makes a ton more guessing games overall. (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772799 example game of the structure from ompl even though it lost). When you're trying to use anything resembling bulk in this tier but they just delete your resist to something so threatening the game just turns into guessing if something is final gambit or normal setup and then if it'll click it or not. This move should be banned imo.
issue 3: the hazard game
the hazard game is insanely polarizing in this meta, again because the options on bulky teams are limited. pex is the go to but it's so easy to stop from being a removal mon with a steel, and gholdengo blocks defog which very few pokemon can use reliably as is. This makes knock off inherently a lot more powerful, and the ease of setting hazards + just spamming strong moves makes anything that isn't like 6 boots mons + single or even double removal really hard to justify when stuff like weavile can knock off all your mons as ting lu sets uncontested hazards. I think ceaseless edge should be banned, or at least suspect tested. It trivializes the idea of getting hazards while also being a reasonably powered move off something like ting lu or kingambit.
issue 4: offense
I think this is kinda the a core issue with the meta, and most of sv. Everything is just too strong and it's too hard to deal with. There are so many options you can just slap onto teams and see what will win. The banwave of gouging lilligant kyurem did definitely help with this but it doesn't come anywhere near stopping it, there are just too many strong mons like rillaboom, iron valiant, urshifu, greninja, weavile, etc. The glacial lance and final gambit bans would help with some of these at least, as well as banning ceaseless to make hazards less threatening so you can more reliably wall things. I spammed HO in a lot of ompl and won most reliably with it, I think it's super easy to just overload anything bulky with a couple strong mons and just hope for matchup. The tier became pretty fishy to me, you just load something and hope for wins while clicking only marginally better. I think banning super powerful moves like the torques, surging strikes, and priority like jet punch along with the other things I mentioned could help tone this down a bit. They would still have options for strong moves like dragon ascent, special attacking mons like bolt and valiant, and even super strong stuff like volcarona running free, but it would be dialed down more than likely. I think an internal discussion on a lot of the top offense meta moves is warranted.
issue 5: miscellaneous cheese
I think a lot of stuff also just adds nothing to the tier while bringing variance. The torques I already mentioned literally aren't usable in game but still exist, and while I do like magical torque for being a strong fairy option I think the cheese factors of all the torques are bordering on unhealthy, blazing torque not included because that move is insanely garbage and idk why it's even in the same category as the others but it can be lumped in if they all get removed on the basis of being unobtainable. Magical is strong as shit and can confuse which can just win a game sometimes, combat has a stupidly high para chance for a move so strong with so much pp, and wicked torque bypasses sleep clause so it can just completely cheese a game on the spot. In finals prep wicked torque was one of my biggest worries, because anything that isn't like great tusk or something can just insta lose the game to a kingambit if it rolls a sleep, same goes for pex vs weavile and the likes. I think that one is especially banworthy but combat torque is as well. Aside from those, stuff like last respects houndstone is just cheese that can be used and is hard to prep vs while also being fundamentally broken. Same goes for rage fist but less so without pecha, but I think that issue is definitely made worse by the fact that rn ape can just blow itself up with final gambit and take out something that literally has to switch in or else you'll insta lose to boosted rage fist. Pop bomb also kinda fits this, insanely broken move that's just somewhat underexplored because so many things are broken rn. If you can raise accuracy or just don't load into something with a helmet you might just win the game because of how strong it is. Less important rn but something to at least watchlist imo.
tl;dr:
I found it very hard not to just play a win or lose on mu game during ompl, a lot of the time I saw other mu's that were just decided on preview too, mainly with the extremes of HO or weather. Building balance was never this difficult in previous gens or even previous metas I think, and it's never been less rewarding either imo. You usually need some sort of x-factor to a balance to make it semi playable like some random cheese or stuff like weavile + absurd bulk, and that still needs to load a good mu. This is probably my ideal way to do things:

ban: dragon energy, ceaseless edge, glacial lance, final gambit, combat torque + wicked torque (all torques optional), last respects, astral barrage likely ban, maybe suspect: jet punch, flower trick, stone axe, kingambit, gholdengo (if ceaseless ban + no barrage ban)
unban following bans: latios (if dragon energy), kyurem (if glacial lance), lilligant (if flower trick), basculegions (if last respects), pecharunt (if rage fist), wellspring (if jet punch / flower trick), azumarill (if jet punch, maybe)
controversial ideas that could work imo: full ban on dragon dance (no native learners, would free like 15 mons), unban solgaleo (no good moves)

overall I think a lot of changes should be made but we have the ability to both free a lot more options with bans and also reduce variance in this meta with a lot of bans.
So as a recap, I'm pretty unsatisfied with the current metagame. I think what I'm describing is kinda an issue in a lot of OMs which I noticed while trying to help most slots prep in OMPL, but that's a different topic. There's just so much variance and it just feels like fish or be fished, and since fishing is near optimal then whoever gets mu wins almost always. My list of bans is pretty long but I think it's all justified personally. Dragon energy and the latios freed part already happened which is nice, but I think that honestly does so little for the tier that it really will make no difference to the state of the metagame. It just slightly nerfs wake and that's really it. My priority list for bans rn is probably final gambit, ceaseless edge, torques, astral barrage, jet punch, glacial lance, then the other stuff I mentioned like stone axe, flower trick, kingambit, and possibly gholdengo if other things don't go. I think last respects is just kinda fundamentally stupid and just a massive headache if you do see it and aren't super prepared for the cheese it has so while it's not a top priority for me I would instantly vote full ban on it. Rage fist is similar but unless the meta slows down a bit I could see more arguments for keeping it.

The two things people probably will be the most in disagreement with are the dragon dance ban and freeing solgaleo, so I'll try to explain my thought process a bit. To me, dragon dance is not an inherently broken move, and I think that much should be the general consensus on it. In standard play there's nothing wrong with it, and in a vacuum there isn't either. The issue comes with the powercreep we've seen recently and just how strong pokemon in STAB in particular get with just a single boost. We've already banned gouging fire, roaring moon, garchomp, dragonite, and kyurem all almost exclusively on the merit of their dragon dance sets, and if something like astral barrage is re-banned then I'd even see the argument that dragapult could be freed with a dragon dance ban, which is a lot of things fully banned because they can click dragon dance. Of things that are freed, I also used salamence in OMPL which is incredibly threatening, gyarados is as strong as ever, and most other things are just simply outclassed rn so they don't see usage but like kommo-o and necrozma which I've experimented with before are also powerful, and I could even see dd archaludon if enough is banned but maybe that one's wishful thinking. Point is a lot of stuff is banned almost solely because they dragon dance and are given these powerful stab moves to use that they don't normally have, without boosts they wouldn't be broken. I can't say I expect too much out of this proposal but I'm hoping people give it genuine thought since I think a lot of things would be better off without dragon dance in this meta.

Solgaleo I just think is a neat thing to try out, like yes it does have the insane BST but its stat spread isn't actually all that amazing, since compared to some minmaxed mons we've gotten this gen its offenses are just good rather than fantastic. The only thing it gets added from normal play is like photon geyser, it already uses the best steel move available and gets no new setup with shift gear banned aside from take heart but it already learns calm mind and special sets are kinda bad in no tera + ting lu world. It would be a strong photon attacker to ignore contact punishing threats, but maybe not too strong. It still hates taking burn on physical sets from something like pex which it'd want to take advantage of, and despite the high attack it still misses some calcs. Ada max cc doesn't even always 2hko a no physical bulk ting lu let alone phys.def ones, it doesn't 2hko def lando-t despite clear body, and strong mons like darkrai and weavile outspeed and scare it while things like volcanion and raging bolt are bulky enough to live 2 hits at least most of the time with bulk and scare it. Worth a discussion imo but maybe too much still.

I also agree with pretty much everything fissure would ban, not super sold on hearthflame just yet and idk about surging entirely but it's a really powerful move I don't think we'd miss which is why I did briefly mention it during my rant on random offense stuff. Shuriken also could free araquanid probably, especially if we ban jet punch too which I think we should so more things can get let back, although I'm less confident on shuriken being broken than jet punch. Lugia is probably slightly overcooking though.
 
*This is a personal piece rather then one as TL of STABmons.

Post-Tera era of STAbmons is still an ongoing process but I've been listening to feedback from everyone here and in the discord and want to summarize what I found is the general consensus of problems the OM faces and some feedback of my own.

The problems commonly stated by those with metagame knowledge and skill.

  1. Matchup Heavy Metagame: Simply put, post-tera the metagame is relatively MU reliant in which many a game are decided purely at preview unless the player it favours throws.
  2. Favours Offense: STABmons is definitely offensive orientated and has been the entirety of Gen 9 whether that be pre or post tera ban, the defensive profile was nerfed this gen and offense saw only increases as the power creep has been snowballing out of control.
  3. Move Powercreep: Similar to the last point, moves have become increasingly powerful both in terms of base power and the effects.

My personal opinion of what should be looked at with respect to tiering methodology in order to address these issues. These are just the most immediate changes I agree with

Suspect:
  • Ceaseless Edge: As can be seen I am not taking a very extreme route in regards to bans as personally I believe we should suspect Ceaseless Edge. I don't believe the move is broken in a vacuum but I can't argue against the idea that it may be unhealthy due to it being a move that makes progress in several different ways in addition to hazard clearing being an innately abusable and momentum sinky process.

Ban:
  • Gholdengo: I love it but hate it, and I think it is one of the things that should be quick banned. Gholdengo is both defensively and offensively powerful due to multiple characteristics ranging from it's great typing, decent defensive stats, and great spa. These points alone would make it top tier, but it is Good as Gold that pushes it into what I consider unhealthy territory for it prevents a lot of counter play such as hazard clear.
  • Final Gambit: Enables cheesy strats on offensive teams where one or more member effectively nuke checks with little means for counterplay as there is only 1 prominent ghost and few nicher ones and most can't switch into the Final Gambit users due to them being strong mons even without taking into account the move.
As can be seen I don't believe we should be immediately jumping to ban a wide swathe of moves and pokemon, but rather take the gradual path; I believe the process we take to be the right path which inevitably takes time, rather then drastic change.

This being said, I believe that we could eventually start addressing some of the other moves/mons given the community support for them being so strong.

Potential Suspects in the future! (in my opinion of course)

  • Jet Punch
  • Surging Strikes
  • Water Shuriken
  • Flower Trick
 
Originally I was gonna make this teamdump like a couple weeks ago but I got busy with work/irl so... here we are. Since discussion about the tier has also sparked up I thought I'd give my two cents on the tier currently and what I'd like to see banned/happen, and while I may not be a top player I'd like to think I'm not dogshit atleast so hopefully these thoughts aren't too nonsense. With that said, teamdump time :D

Teamdump (Click on the teams for paste):

Gonna first start with saying that playing OMPL this year was kinda meh, I'd consider STAB to be my weakest tier that I'd play and on top of the tier being horribly unbalanced I didn't play or prep as well as I would've liked, but such is life, I'm still very thankful I got drafted at all and despite the fact that my STAB record ended 1-2 I atleast managed to make us go positive in the end with 4-3. All of these teams were built as me as I was basically solo-building with some occasional help from teammates. (Was gonna say use with caution, but like half of these are illegal/suck so just don't lol)


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Before I even had started I knew I wanted to go with something a bit slower, as this was just after Tera Ban and the tier was all over the place, and as such I was expecting a lot of Offense to be brought. Weavile was a great fit as the main progress maker, as it didn't require to much support in order to break through stuff. Rest of team is fairly boring barring the Hydrapple set which I thought was really cool, as it was able to check a large portion of physical attackers, mainly the Ogerpons and Kingambit. The match itself was very anticlimatic, as I only won thanks to a Critical Hit so :/


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Second week I wasn't playing, as I was busy graduating (lame, I know), but I had started to notice that everyone, including me, were being awfully lazy with their defensive cores, and were relying a lot on Toxapex + Lando-T/Ting-Lu, so I knew I wanted to bring something to take advantage of that and settled on SubDD Gyarados, who could easily set up on both. It didn't end up doing as much as it could've in the match, and CB Valiant carried instead.


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I can't lie, I don't know what happened with this team, as it was very rushed. The only thing I recall is seeing that DD Kyurem looked cool so I wanted to try bringing it. Well, it turned out that I had completely overlooked Kingambit, as my only switchin was Lando-T, and as I didn't wanna risk triggering Defiant I kinda just played horrible and threw (I also didn't notice this looked almost identical to my week1 team until Fissure pointed it out in-game so...) It was at this point I knew I had to start actually prepping a bit more seriously and not be lazy with my defensive cores like I'd been earlier.

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I was still very high on abusing the enormous Toxapex usage going around, so I wanted to try broken Substitute user #3: Volcanion. Ogerpon-H also looked very promising, as Wellspring & Latios had just been banned. Rounded the team off with some speed control in Walking Wake & Booster Valiant aswell as a basic defensive core (that wasn't LandoPex :o ). Unfortunately my Ogerpon got crit by Beak Blast through Defense boost which sealed the game for me, which was very demotivating as I had spent a lot more effort on this team, but such is life.


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Since I was no longer playing and instead just supporting I had a bit more time prepping & looking at the meta again, and I noticed that a lot of teams were simply not prepping for Rillaboom, like at all. Specs Kyurem also looked busted as there were virtually no defensive answers, so I had a core to go for. Admittedly I went for Ting-Lu/Pex again but this time I used Eject Pex, as it would both give Rillabom & Kyurem more opportunities as well as making the team overall play a bit faster. Hearthflame was still broken and paired well with Gterrain and last was Booster Tusk, who could come in, set hazards/remove them, and the kill off a random wall. Match went well, and we won with few issues.


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People had finally started to pick up on the fact that Rain was kinda bullshit, so I wanted to give my spin on it. I had some other versions that ran Keldeo/Tatsugiri over Urshifu-R, but in short this team was in my humble opinion one of my best teams; it did well in testing, it had the tempo to keep up with HO while also having an out versus almost all matchups (PS please don't use CB Barraskewda it's so shit, use pads or atleast gloves it's much better trust me) Shuca Berry Bolt was mostly cause a lot of people were relying on Ting-Lu/Lando-T in order to check Electro Shot, and this set just gave the middle finger to both. Match unfortunately didn't go as well which sucked and we lost (I originally had Beak Blast on Pelipper but dropped it last minute, guess who was regretting that ;-;)


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At this point we were basically out so I just decided to say fuck it, and sent Screens HO. Lead Great Tusk ensured we didn't immediately play versus hazards and also gave us Final Gambit opportunity, and the rest were just broken setup sweepers. Thankfully we did win, as Gyarados finally got to shine and show how fucking broken it was.

My thoughts on the Meta:
To the surprise of hopefully nobody I'm currently not the biggest fan of the meta, as there is currently too many things to account for all while having to resort to super niche and specific scenarios in order to not lose vs stuff. Earlier this was much bearable due to Tera being in the meta, as you could use your defensive mons to check a larger variety of mons, easing up the building process but since Tera got banned (biggest mistake ever) but with that gone there is simply no way for Balance or even BO to be able to handle or even have an out vs all mons in the meta. Despite this, I think the biggest issue currently is STABmons identity: what do we want to be the "main" archetype in the tier? Currently, we can see that it's 99% Hyper-offense and Bulky-offense, which makes sense, as STABmons is a meta that introduces a lot of new offensive tools, making almost all offensive threats hit harder, so naturally it'd lean towards that. However, if we want Balance to return as the "main" archetype (like in gen 8 from what I can gather) then there needs to be a fuckton of bans happening on both mons & moves in order to give Balance enough breathing room to start developing, as currently it is extremely hard to make it work consistently. But sometimes, and maybe this is a Zoomer take idk, I wonder if all metas really need to be centered around balance, and if there actually needs to occur such a large amount of bans in order for the meta to become fun. I'm aware that the shift from gen 8 to gen 9 has made Offense a lot more potent, but eventually I think it's time to maybe accept that some metas will indeed be skewing to Offenses favour, and that balance doesn't in fact have to be the staple archetype.

Now, with all that said I still think bans need to happen, cause while I'd favour a more offense-oriented meta personally I don't think Balance should be as dogshit as it is right now, and instead of immediately listing my thoughts I thought I'd go over all the suggestions and give my personal take.

Moves:
:samurott-hisui: Ceaseless Edge: Ban, this is one of the moves I think should definetly go, as it generates too much progress at virtually no cost while also being able to be used multiple times unlike Stone Axe. Setting Spikes in a meta where removal is kinda scuffed (I'll adress that later) is very powerful, and would help against almost all structures, but especially balance, as it often lacks the firepower to fight back before being worn down enough.

:meowscarada: Flower Trick: I'm a bit iffy on this one. On one hand, having a move that guaranteed crits paired with reasonably strong breakers makes it a nightmare to prep against defensively, but on the other hand I don't think that the majority of abusers are particulary broken or unfair, it's mainly Ogerpon-W, Ogerpon-H, and Lilligant-Hisui. If it went then I wouldn't be particulary sad but I'd prefer if Heartflame got gutted instead, as I believe that is the main problem currently.

:urshifu-rapid-strike: Surging Strikes: Kind of in a similar boat as Flower Trick, but instead it's a better typing at the cost of being more contact-weak, but despite that I'd be in favour of banning the move, would also tone done the power of Rain that people still think is bad for some reason. Only reason I'm hesitant is because the abusers list is kind of short, only really consisting of Barraskewda, Urshifu-R, Palafin-H and maybe Gyarados, but again, I wouldn't be mad if it went.

:palafin-hero: Jet Punch: This one however, I think is fine and I'm honestly kinda unsure what abuses this. It's basically just the former squad of Barraskewda, Urshifu-R, Palafin-H and Gyarados, except that 1) Barraskewda & Gyarados don't exactly need it to be potent, as both can boost their Speed already, and 2) it's a lot weaker than something like Surging Strikes. If we're trying to make Balance have an easier time handling these then I don't think a Jet Punch ban would do much.

:greninja: Water Shuriken: A bit ironic perhaps to say this, but I actually think Water Shuriken is the most broken move on the list here and is the one that should go immediately/get quickbanned. What differs between Water Shuriken and Jet Punch for me is that Water Shuriken has way better abusers that can take advantage of Special walls a lot easier, on top of almost all user having access to powerful boosting moves, ranging from banned deucers Manaphy & Araquanid with Tail Glow to Volcanion using Torch Song to Greninja using Nasty Plot to Keldeo & Primarina using Calm Mind, you get the idea. Add the newly introduced item Loaded Dice and you have a truly bullshit move with abusers that can very easily overwhelm or outright ignore common defensive & offensive counterplay.

:victini: Final Gambit:
It pains me to say this, as I think it's a very cool & unique move, but it is in fact very uncompetitive to play against, as Offense virtually gets to do stuff and then say "yooo sick defensive wall there, how about I just oneshot it", letting already powerful mons like Urshifu-R, Keldeo or Great Tusk force awkward plays from the opponent. So overall, not necessarily a broken move but very frustrating/uncompetitive.

:Calyrex-shadow: Astral Barrage: I'm surprised this is even considered for a ban, as it is literally just Gholdengo who's causing havoc with it (Gengar isn't big enough of an issue lets not kid ourselves), and I'd rather just ban Gholdengo for reasons I'll get to later. Even if it somehow went Gholdengo would still be a menace with Moongeist Beam so this seems kinda pointless to look at.

:calyrex-ice: Glacial Lance: I can kind of understand why this is up for debate, as a 120 Base, non-contact Ice move is extremely potent against virtually everything, but currently I think it sits in a fine spot, with the only real abusers being Weavile and Mamoswine somewhat, with only one of them having access to setup. However, Weavile isn't exactly broken, and has very clear counterplay, while Mamoswine kinda just struggles due to it's lackluster Speed tier, so I'd personally vote no ban. I'm aware some people want it banned so we can unban Baxcalibur & Kyurem, but honestly those two should stay banned forever, as they'd just replace it with either Dice Icicle Spear or Pads Triple Axel.

:Kleavor: Stone Axe: I think this is Ceaseless Edge but a lot more balanced and fair, mainly due to two reasons. 1) There are way less users of Stone Axe currently, with the only real ones being Tyranitar & Ogerpon-Cornerstone, neither of which are particulary unfair imo, and 2) It's not as spammable & free as Ceaseless Edge, as you only get value out of it once unlike Ceaseless where you can freely click it 3 times and still make progress. Rocks in general are also a lot weaker than multiple layers of Spikes, so I think this is a fine addition that can stay, mostly cause there aren't many good users.

:houndstone: Last Respects: Can be summarized as cheese, and I would be in favour of banning it simply for that, nobody likes having to at minimum have to account for some silly dog with a tombstone, and Last Respects as a move is already extremely overtuned so might as well gut it while we're at it.

:revavroom: Torque Moves: This is perhaps where my only controversial opinion stands, but I don't think any of the Torque moves are banworthy at all. are some of the secondary effects silly? yes (it's literally only Wicked Torque and that has a grand total of 1 user, rest aren't abnormal) are some of them powerful also? yes, but I don't think they're a main contributor as to why balance is getting shattered into a million fucking pieces each game, the only thing that makes them somewhat controversial is the fact that they're non-contact, but imo it shouldn't be that all physical attackers get invalidated by Beak Blast & Burning Bulwark, hell there aren't even many users of either to begin with so I don't even know. Only mon that gets very buffed is Iron Valiant, but at that point just ban Valiant if we think it's overbearing.

Pokemon:
Gholdengo :gholdengo:: Aaaaand here is culprit #1 of making the meta miserable, and I honestly believe this fella should just get quickbanned. Not only does Gholdengo invalidate the entire Hazard metagame by blocking almost all form of removal, making Ceaseless Edge even more powerful, it's also extremely strong offensively, basically mandating stuff like Ting-Lu or Kingambit in order to not fold to it. Please kill it with fire asap.
Kingambit :Kingambit:: I currently think Kingambit's somewhat fine actually, and if anything it's a great anti-offense tool which this meta seems to deperately need paired withgreat defensive utility and strong offense. While counterplay can be clunky sometimes it still exists and isn't exactly a burden to slot. Could it become a problem in the future? absolutely, but right now? I don't believe so.
Ogerpon-Hearthflame :ogerpon-hearthflame:: Culprit #2 of making the meta miserable, this is the real balance killer. Great offensive typing combined with moves like the aformentioned Flower Trick and Pyro Ball/Sacred Fire makes this a menace, and last slot can be either Play Rough for the dragons or something else that sees you fit. This mon is virtually unwallable outside of stuff like Max Defense Hydrapple or Salamence, and is very potent even against offense, and is something I'd like to see go as soon as possible.

Solgaleo :Solgaleo: & Lugia :Lugia:: Gonna adress both of these two because they're somewhat similar, but I don't think any of them should be introduced to the tier, and while some may argue that "oh Ting-Lu beats them it's fine" I think that's a horrible argument, because if we're trying to make balance less constrained then why would we introduce two insane powerhouses that can quite literally shrug off a large majority of revenge killes thanks to their sheer bulk. I can't see a world where these two wouldn't be centralizing at all, and despite being met with the brilliant counterargument of "just outplay lol" I am not convinced either of these would be balanced currently.

Items:
Damp Rock :damp rock:: I've already spoken my thoughts about this item here but in short; Ban Damp Rock, unless Surging Strikes gets restricted, then I think Damp Rock could at minimum wait with being acted upon, as currently the biggest issue with Rain is Rain-Boosted Surging Strikes from Barraskewda. Otherwise, ban the rock, it's way too fishy and requires way too specific counterplay.

Summary:
In Summary, the bans I'd like to see at minimum are:

- Ceaseless Edge
- Water Shuriken
- Final Gambit
- Last Respects
- Gholdengo
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame

I could also additionally see Flower Trick & Surging Strikes go as well, but I won't necessarily push for them to be banned, moreso just seeing what others think and acting upon that.
That is all from me, ty if you read this. I think tiering-wise we're going in the right direction but I just don't think we're quite there yet.
 
Summer STABmons Survey
Here is the survey for everyone that interested in to fill out, it deals with all the relevant Pokemon, and Moves that shape the metagame both positively and negatively and if you want to see the meta grow please fill it out if you have experience in the tier!
The survey will remain up for 2 weeks, after which we will analyze the general opinions presented and take tiering actions if needed including bans and suspects.
 
I wonder, why are people saying final gambit is broken? I get their reasons and on paper it does sound broken but I don't actually see it used during my matches? Is it mainly known as broken due to some tour or smth? :blobshrug:
 
I wonder, why are people saying final gambit is broken? I get their reasons and on paper it does sound broken but I don't actually see it used during my matches? Is it mainly known as broken due to some tour or smth? :blobshrug:

Final Gambit is just unhealthy, in OMPL and even further back there have been teams that are built around sacking teammates through Final Gambit to disable checks that would otherwise full stop them. Primary abusers are Great Tusk and Annihilape with their great HP stat letting them KO most things, but it isn't limited to them. Final Gambit has several key points that make it unhealthy:

  1. Being able to instantly KO most switchins
  2. Even when it doesn't KO it leaves the Pokemon heavily weakened and grants the team momentum no matter what unless it is blocked by a ghost (the two primary users both capable of KOing Gholdengo the most notable ghost)
  3. The move isn't the only thing that Pokemon running them are capable of, in the case of Great Tusk it is often used as a combination of hazard setter + Hazard Remover on the turn it comes in (often ran as a lead) with Booster energy speed to force a switch then nuking the incoming check the following turn
In summary the primary reason it is unhealthy is it allows a teammate to nuke something (almost always Ko-ing) without much means to counter it, granting momentum to the team of which said teams being built around abusing said momentum.
 
Summer STABmons Survey- Results

With a total of 26 individual responses, the summer survey for STABmons has concluded and the results are as follows.

Pokemon Survey Results

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Average: 6.88

The average is on the slightly low side (sub 7) but as a whole people find it relatively fun.

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Average: 5.69

In contrast to the relatively normal results of the last poll, this one is definitely lower then preferred and mainly relates to the state of the metagame being heavily match up in nature which is further corroborated by the following question.

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Average: 5.09

As previously discuss, the state of the metagame has been often stated as match up heavy by those that play in tours and the results prove this statement is relatively common. The hopes of this poll to address some of these issues by the end of this survey.


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This question was something I as TL included to gauge how those that have an interest STABmons perceive the balance between suspects and quick bans as unlike more active tiers we can't feasibly host a suspect for every single thing due to ladder activity being sporadic at best. Whilst ideally at this point we'd have a suspect for everything but that is simply unrealistic unlike in the official formats or even AAA which has upwards of 4 times the numbers of STABmons when the latter is at its weakest.

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Average: 7.87

Landorus-Therian is one of the top dogs of STABmons due to the versatility it has both offensively, supportively, and defensively and the poll results corroborate this statement in general and prove it is both balanced and well liked.

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Average: 5.04

Gholdengo is definitely a contentious topic, its high spa, great typing, decent all around stats and ability all combine into this Pokemon that is highly influential in the metagame. Furthermore its ability inhibits hazard removal which many consider to be in a poor state. We voted on it.

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Average: 5.83

Raging Bolt being sub 6 on average is somewhat of indication that it may become problematic in the future and as such we will continue to monitor it's presence.

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Average: 7.04

Another top dog of the metagame and primary abuser of Ceaseless Edge, Ting-Lu isn't seen as problematic by most that took part in the survey.

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Average: 6.12

Not currently seen as problematic on average.

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Average: 4.25

Extremely low score, indicating that Ogerpon-Hearthflame is seen as broken which is a sentiment I myself share for it has qualities that make it unwallable such as its typing, speed, ability and great movepool. Grass/Fire does have an SR weakness but that isn't saying much when it packs as much of a punch as it does. We voted on it.

Move Survey Results

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Ceaseless Edge Average: 4.08

Ceaseless Edge has been a heavily discussed topic as of late, but even prior to the Tera ban it was seen as a contentious move due to how generally free it was to use to pressure the opposing team and how hazard clearing in generally resulted in extreme loss of momentum. The survey average corroborates this with a low 4.08.

Dragon Dance Average: 5.82

More a hypothetical question then one we'd act on, Dragon Dance is extremely potent in STABmons due to the most Pokemon gaining access to high powered moves of a higher quality then normally accessible, such as Dragons gaining access to Dragon Darts and Glaive Rush both of which outclass basic moves such as Outrage and Dragon Claw and this is ignoring secondary type coverage. The average indicates there is some common sentiment towards Dragon Dance as being powerful at the very least, potentially game breaking at the worst but not enough support to actually address it.

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Jet Punch Average: 5.83

Slightly below 6 proves there is some that believe it should receive some form of tiering action but lacks enough support in general to move forwards in anyway.

Astral Barrage Average: 4.7

Normally this would be enough indication to go forward with a suspect at minimum, potentially a quick ban, however due to Gholdengo being such a big topic I've decided to hold on doing anything regarding it considering if Ghold is banned it's primary abuser would be gone and Gengar among most other ghosts see little play and aren't discussed as being broken. Action on it will be on hold for the moment.

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Stone Axe Average: 6

Not low enough to act on, move is also limited to a weaker typing which helps limit it's effect on the metagame to Tyranitar and Ogerpon-Cornerstone for the most part.

Rage Fist Average: 5.13

Rage Fist is broken in general, only reason it hasn't been addressed previously is that it was always limited to Annihilape but even the ape itself is something that can easily snowball out of control. The addition of Pecharunt flipped that idea on it's head and let it bring out the potential of the move when coupled with a tank. The average corroborates this idea that the move is busted when not limited to its native user and even when it is it is still considered extremely potent. We voted on it.

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Torch Song Average: 5.87

Some negative sentiment hold it back from a 6 average but not enough for any action.

Final Gambit Average: 3.75

Final Gambit is commonly seen as unhealthy and difficult to answer, its extremely low average corroborates this notion and as such expect action on it at the end of this post.

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Flower Trick Average: 5.54

Definitely on the lower side of 5, and as such we voted on it.

Water Shuriken Average: 5.91

Nearly 6 but not quite seems to indicate some level of support regarding it being potentially broken but not enough to act.

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Surging Strikes Average: 5.2

With a low average, Surging Strikes has been a common topic since the inception of Gen 9 due to it being a relatively little risk alternative to Wave Crash without the recoil. We voted on it.

Glacial Lance Average: 5.58

A powerful move with no downsides, the average indicates that many view it as potentially problematic but not quite enough to act on.

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Mortal Spin Average: 6.54

Seen as relatively healthy and balanced.

Wicked Torque Average: 4.79

Very low average due to sleep being seen so negatively, we voted on it.

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Torque Moves Average: 5

Another hypothetical question, though not one we'd act on (we'd target specific moves as seen with Wicked Torque). The argument for including this was due to the potency of most Torque moves barring Blazing Torque as they are extremely reliable, perfect accuracy, high status effect chance moves that do not make contact.

Last Respects Average: 3.3

The move like Rage Fast has unbelievable potential to turn over games that'd normally be lost due to their growth in power. We preemptively banned Basculegion (both formes) at the release of Home and though Houndstone isn't breaking the metagame over it's back it is something that is very, very fishy which is why we included it. We voted on it.

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Beak Blast Average: 6.25

Beak Blast is a move that balances a lot of the current metagame preventing Pokemon and moves from being overwhelming, some may consider it metagame warping, others consider it a healthy addition that balances it. It's average indicates that most are fine with out but there are a sizable number of voters that deem it very broken.

Combat Torque Average: 6.08

Combat Torque was included as a way to gauge the sentiments people hold towards specific Torque moves aside from Magical and Wicked Torque and its average indicates most are fine with it though there are some that find it very broken.

Voting, Unbans and Suspect!

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As a results the following has been banned:


  • Gholdengo
  • Ogerpon-Hearthflame
  • Rage Fist
  • Last Respects
  • Final Gambit
As a result of these bans we have unbanned Basculegion (both formes) and Pecharunt!

...And Ceaseless Edge will be suspect tested (up by tomorrow)!
 
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EDIT: I guess I'll add some more commentary. If we are going to ban sleep moves, then we gotta ban them all. Wicked Torque and Relic song as well (I don't care if that stops Meloetta from transforming). They break the rules, so they have got to go. Oh, and Dire Claw too.

EDIT...like 9: I understand this is more of a policy comment, but I'm not going into the policy discussion thread just to have an argument. So i guess just dire claw and wicked torque bans and keep relic song as a restricted move to just melo.

NEW EDIT: Nah, I'm back on the pro relic song ban. Banning a forme change is fine.
 
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Head Pecha was unbanned sooo..

:Pecharunt: @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
- Nasty Plot
- Infernal Parade
- Mortal Spin
- Recover

Did I cook with this set or did I overcooked it and overlooked it's major flaws?
Edit: Noticed a major flaw.
:Kingambit:
 
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