I think 248HP, 8DEF and 252SPD is good enough
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STAB STABmons
- Thread starter SammyCe123
- Start date
Thanks. Will definetly try the ev spreads once the new changes are implemented into PS! But to avoid this being a worthless reply. I think Ogerpon Teal will potenitally be a big counter to lando-t but is then countered by potential lokixs and toxapex.
It reallt depends on what set the Lando-t is running. If it scarfed, it always beats Ogerpon Teal, defensive Lando-t might lose Ogerpon Teal but I'm not sure. I feel Ogerpon-cornerstone is gonna become a more important threat in the metagame, but a more balanced one than Hearthflame
Clefable was a Normal-type Pokemon up until Generation 5, it has access to every Normal type move added in generations 1 to 5, but not those added in generations 6 to 9
Ceaseless Edge has ceased to be! STABmons has restricted Ceaseless Edge to native users as a result of a blind vote! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-suspect-7-ceaseless-edge.3750943/post-10264373
Tagging dhelmise to let him know that I will be making the changes to the banlist/restrict list.
Tagging dhelmise to let him know that I will be making the changes to the banlist/restrict list.
Dark types (except Hsamu he is mega edgelord) can't be edge lords anymore, millions of rocks must use axes in honour of the ceased.
Post Survey Ban Slate!
As can be seen by the result, Damp rock, Jet Punch, Combat Torque, Magical Torque, and Glacial Lance all remain free whilst Astral Barrage is restricted and Kingambit is banned!
Here are my thoughts, any of the council can chime in on their opinions.
I voted (Y) to Damp Rock as I feel rain is just too potent in general even with Electro Shot being gone. Archaludon is such an amazing addition to rain both defensively and offensively, capable of running a specially defensive AV set yet remain powerful and able to setup in two different ways (Stamina & Body Press + Electro Shot & STABs). I believe it is broken, as it can brute force through most answers and that the usual response in banning Damp Rock is the key to reining in the archetype.
I voted (N) to Jet Punch, like... how is this even broken.... Palafin is non-existent, Urshifu is good but has 4mss depending on set, Barraskewda primarily relies on Surging Strikes and Close Combat...
Voted (N) on Combat Torque, fighting types are extremely easy to answer in STABmons, and the para chance doesn't change this dynamic and is more a nuisance then anything and not the reason people run it (STABmons uses it for it non-contact good damage), plus Covert Cloak is amazing so...
Voted (N) for magical torque, again the secondary effect is just annoying, and only prominent user is Iron Valiant whom if there is a problem to be had is the reason.
Voted (N) Astral Barrage... this one kinda baffles me, what ghost type even uses it that is relevant? Gengar is decent but not broken, Skeledirge and Sinistcha similarly are decent but again not broken, not even sure why it was voted to be banned but alas it is, hopefully some others on the council can explain why either here or in the discord. (I sincerely hope it isn't some twisted desire to unban Gholdengo as I have to question that line of logic as TL of the OM section...)
Voted (Y) for Kingambit, thing has always be extremely strong, capable of lategame turnovers , breaking so many things, and being an unhealthy element in regards tothe 50/50's it forces.
Voted (N) on Glacila Lance, Weavile is the only relevant things and whilst Mamoswine is a beast it has constraints that hold it back (speed), Kyurem would broken regardless, Baxcalibur similarly so...
Whether Gholdengo is freed because of the Astral Barrage ban remains to be seen, but it won't happen now.
Pinging dhelmise to let them know of the incoming pull request.
I hope this post finds you well,
There has been a ton of mixed sentiments regarding the tier as of late, and instead of just adding my 2 cents to the mix, I would instead like to ask for transparency in regard to how the council goes about the decisions that are being made. On August 10th, a survey was released, and then on August 24th, the results to that survey were released to the community. In that survey, there are a few things I would like to bring up.
First, what does the score that an issue receives mean to the council? Let us look at Kingambit. Kingambit received a community average score of 6.12 and was given this statement "Not currently seen as problematic on average." As a result of such a score, it was not even included in the council votes that happened as a result of this survey. And yet, not even a month later, Kingambit was put up for a quick ban council vote with no prior announcement, and with no further community engagement regarding the mon (at least in this thread. I can't see every little thing that goes on in Discord and the OM Room, but I have not seen such discussion first-hand) since the last survey. What has caused the council to vote on a mon that was regarded by the community as the 5th most healthiest issue addressed on the latest survey? (EDIT: For clarity, I am referring to issue as a move or mon, not including things like state of the meta as a whole or how competitive we find it to be)
Second, what factors decide how an issue will be addressed? Going back to the survey, Ceaseless Edge received an average community score of 4.08, which landed it a council vote, not for a ban, but instead for a suspect. Meanwhile, other similarly ranked issues (Ogerpon-Hearthflame with an average of 4.25, Astral Barrage with an average of 4.7, and Wicked Torque with an average of 4.79) were instead voted on for a ban and not a suspect. How does the council decide which option is eligible for a suspect test vote rather than a ban vote? Will things like Damp Rock and Wicked Torque be eligible for a suspect test in the future instead of a council vote?
Third, is there a "magic number" that the council is looking for when it comes to what gets voted on? For the first round of council votes associated with the August 10th survey, the highest community average scored issue that was voted on was Flower trick with an average of 5.54 and received this comment "Definitely on the lower side of 5, and as such we voted on it.". The next highest issue being Glacial Lance (which was not voted on) received an average score of 5.58 and received this comment "A powerful move with no downsides, the average indicates that many view it as potentially problematic but not quite enough to act on." If 5.54 is on the low end and 5.58 is not quite enough, then what is the cutoff? What criteria were used for the council suspect vote that went up earlier today? Why were moves and mons that were above the average score of 5.54 included in the new council vote? I bring this up because the title of the post is "Post Survey Ban Slate!" and last I looked, there have not been any new surveys since the last one was posted on August 24th.
We all as a community want what is best for the meta that we love. I believe the best way to reach an understanding on an issue is to talk it out, and not just spew out our opinions until one of us can't take it anymore and just leaves.
I hope this post opens a healthy dialogue between the council and the community about our expectations, and hopes, for the future of STABmons.
Respectfully Yours,
Fissure
There has been a ton of mixed sentiments regarding the tier as of late, and instead of just adding my 2 cents to the mix, I would instead like to ask for transparency in regard to how the council goes about the decisions that are being made. On August 10th, a survey was released, and then on August 24th, the results to that survey were released to the community. In that survey, there are a few things I would like to bring up.
First, what does the score that an issue receives mean to the council? Let us look at Kingambit. Kingambit received a community average score of 6.12 and was given this statement "Not currently seen as problematic on average." As a result of such a score, it was not even included in the council votes that happened as a result of this survey. And yet, not even a month later, Kingambit was put up for a quick ban council vote with no prior announcement, and with no further community engagement regarding the mon (at least in this thread. I can't see every little thing that goes on in Discord and the OM Room, but I have not seen such discussion first-hand) since the last survey. What has caused the council to vote on a mon that was regarded by the community as the 5th most healthiest issue addressed on the latest survey? (EDIT: For clarity, I am referring to issue as a move or mon, not including things like state of the meta as a whole or how competitive we find it to be)
Second, what factors decide how an issue will be addressed? Going back to the survey, Ceaseless Edge received an average community score of 4.08, which landed it a council vote, not for a ban, but instead for a suspect. Meanwhile, other similarly ranked issues (Ogerpon-Hearthflame with an average of 4.25, Astral Barrage with an average of 4.7, and Wicked Torque with an average of 4.79) were instead voted on for a ban and not a suspect. How does the council decide which option is eligible for a suspect test vote rather than a ban vote? Will things like Damp Rock and Wicked Torque be eligible for a suspect test in the future instead of a council vote?
Third, is there a "magic number" that the council is looking for when it comes to what gets voted on? For the first round of council votes associated with the August 10th survey, the highest community average scored issue that was voted on was Flower trick with an average of 5.54 and received this comment "Definitely on the lower side of 5, and as such we voted on it.". The next highest issue being Glacial Lance (which was not voted on) received an average score of 5.58 and received this comment "A powerful move with no downsides, the average indicates that many view it as potentially problematic but not quite enough to act on." If 5.54 is on the low end and 5.58 is not quite enough, then what is the cutoff? What criteria were used for the council suspect vote that went up earlier today? Why were moves and mons that were above the average score of 5.54 included in the new council vote? I bring this up because the title of the post is "Post Survey Ban Slate!" and last I looked, there have not been any new surveys since the last one was posted on August 24th.
We all as a community want what is best for the meta that we love. I believe the best way to reach an understanding on an issue is to talk it out, and not just spew out our opinions until one of us can't take it anymore and just leaves.
I hope this post opens a healthy dialogue between the council and the community about our expectations, and hopes, for the future of STABmons.
Respectfully Yours,
Fissure
*Didn't get pinged for this, so apology for the slightly late response.
The council is a collection of individuals, generally we put up votes based on suggestions by fellow council people, on what we see here and in the discord, in replays, and through our own experiences. We come together and discuss our points of views, or reasons we believe x or y is broken and then vote.
My objective as TL is merely to facilitate the operations of the council and to ensure that nothing too policy diverging occurs, such as extremely suspect stuff like say banning a specific move on a specific Pokemon. I am not the dictator of the tier, and though technically my say is somewhat final that is not how I operate.
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Regarding Kingambit, that is definitely a strange one as you mentioned, fundamentally many in the council believe we need to make drastic changes to the tier in order for it to be both competitive and fun. That the OM is currently in a poor state and that action needs to be taken. As a result, we voted on things without reflection on the aforementioned survey and its scores. Kingambit has always been a mixed bag throughout the entirety of the generation, even having been banned at one point, this made quick voting it out particularly easy due to the aforementioned precedence. Our reasons are likely different depending on whom you ask in the council as we aren't a monolith, we each hold our own perspectives.
My reason for voting "yes" to the vote was purely related to a combination of the unhealthy lategame issues Kingambit creates as a result of Supreme Overlord and the high offensive power of Kingambit fully capable of turning over games that should by all accounts be solved purely due to a 50/50 dice roll.
For others, I am sure there are other reasons that they can explain, I know for some it was heavily influenced by their perception of Wicked Torque and it's fishy sleep effect, that in tandem with Swords Dance could theoretically let it beat even sturdy checks.
I will say that if we are wrong, and Kingambit isn't problematic we are fully willing to undo it, this much I will say though. This will especially be the case if Wicked Torque is banned in the future in which case Kingambit may be reintroduced into the tier.
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Regarding the reason to suspect one thing over another comes heavily down to the impact of what we are suspecting and the reasons for why. Ceaseless Edge was suspected because ultimately it has been a central force within STABmons since it entered the OM, simply quick banning it when there is no real subsitute to it would be a poor move on our part. In constrast Wicked Torque was already voted on and failed to pass in survey ban slate as such voting on it again immediately would seem like someone is intentionally trying to force something to be banned / restricted in spite of a fair vote.
Astral Barrage was not voted on then because it's primary abuser Gholdengo was coming underfire as a potentially broken element within the metagame. Ultimately, I told the rest of the council that it wasn't the offensive power of Gholdengo + Astral Barrage alone but rather a summation of all of Gholdengo's attributes that made it broken as a result the easiest and most straight forward thing to do was banning it.
Now I will say it's recent banning is particularly strange, and I allowed it to be voted on and as such am to blame for it being restricted post-gholdengo (with many having the intention of freeing Gholdengo as a result of this and in combianton with the recent Ceaseless restrict). We do plan to reaccess Gholdengo again in the coming week, but I have to say that this was a failure on my part as TL since we shouldn't be arbitrarily banning a move just to keep one thing in the tier...
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Just gonna be a frank, this is my first time doing a tallied survey with an average and it clearly shows. The numbers and their meaning and the reasons for why some were excluded despite being in the range for being voted are dependent on the move itself. Glacial Lance was not voted on because it is only featured on one prominent Pokemon, Weavile, and if you really wished to push it there'd be one more anti-meta pick in Mamoswine. The move is without a doubt powerful and has no downsides, it doesn't make contact, hits hard, and is one of the best offensive typings in the game yet ultimately its prominence and power is decided by the Pokemon. For this reason it wasn't voted on, and it's past abusers Chien-Pao, Baxcalibur and Kyurem were deemed broken with or without the move. Does this mean we will never vote on it, no it doesn't.
The title was simply referring to the first ban slate after the survey + survey ban slate (I realize it is confusing now that I look at it lol).
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The criteria itself is actually quite complex as we had no way of knowing whether people were viewing the moves in isolation or in context to the metagame itself. Ultimately if we viewed moves in isolation stuff like Glacial Lance would be flat out broken on a purely statistical scale, yet we can't do that, it is always a combination of elements that contribute to something being broken unless it is beyond the norm. Examples of things that are beyond the norm include Shed Tail and many boosting moves to name but two. I myself am always trying to find a balance between the influence of the move on the mon and the mon on the move.
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Currently, STABmons is in truly dire straits, and we all have our own ideas of what is the right direction both in regards to banning moves and banning pokemon whether one or the other takes precedence. I can't say I will always be right in my decisions as I am a flawed individual just trying to do their best, so call me out things if you feel there is a reason to do so.
We will try to be as flexible in the future as possible, that means if we have to unban a Pokemon(s) after a move ban to test it out, we will do so as we have unique circumstances to many other tiers and need to be able to change when necessary.
I hope I was clear with this, it has been turbulent as of late but if you need to talk to me specifically please do so here, on discord, or on PS.
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Unbans and Bans Pre-Other Metagame World Cup + Update
So with the restriction of Ceaseless Edge, and Astral Barrage, we decided to Unban Gholdengo once more, in addition Wicked Torque is banned! Kingambit may be voted on at a later date but since it is a bit early to just instantly undo two bans (I mean it literally wasn't banned till yesterday) it will remain banned for at least a while yet.
On another note, we will be updating the VR in a few days and posting some rough samples (reminder you can post them here).
Pinging dhelmise to let them know about the pull request.
(Gia explanation time: reason some feel Wicked Torque deserved banning is because it could flip matches and proc sleep, and was an easy solution to some whereas other cases of sleep either are non-existent in practice (relic song) or was a similar status effect (freeze) that is problematic to tackle with our current policies in place.)
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can't wait for the kingambit vote later on at this mon really didn't deserve to be banned :(
stab was 2nd best meta to play in bo3 but it feels a bit MU reliant, rain is absurd and I often accepted that I would lose to it cuz I can't bring volcanion or clodsire every game and even w/o rain I feel like you just roll with stuff and hope you won't load into one of the things that destroy you - when that doesn't happen, games are actually cool, it just felt very frustrating bc 20% of the time I had fun and 80% I was just losing despite trying cool stuff.
same as in mnm though, kinda sad that it's dead here, no samples update since may, a VR that ngl has very little sense, I know OMs aren't in a good spot overall and I've had a lot of critics with other tiers like GG but at least a part of their council has been active and tried to make their tier live, I find it a bit sad to have so little interest over here, exacerbated by some weird tiering decisions that weren't even followed up
anyway, onto the teams I used during wcup
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- toxapex = broken and it's 99% of the time a bad idea to not use it, walking wake = broken breaker even though it would appreciate a knock user on that team, volcanion broken mon, takes advantage of toxapex and patches rain MU. Then Sylveon is the cool pick, we already loved that mon 1y ago and having court change is still broken, lando is mandatory scarf, not the craziest team but a bunch of solid stuff that makes this team good but not amazing
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- man this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you build cool teams and then you load in a bad MU and you just cry. This team was like, really cool, and I really would have liked to have a good game with it. But the MU into Thundurus Rain was just bad, and I lost the 50/50 I needed to not lose and I couldn't play. That was not fun. Boulder is kinda bad bc ppl spams ting lu way more than I thought, specs hydrapple goated and I still don't know if Incineroar sucks or not (it probably does). Still got my boy pex bc it's broken
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- this team was solid and sub np ghold is kinda good if you're able to wear down ting lu but well cornerstone is also broken so don't load into that haha. Not a cool team but it's solid
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- no one allowed me to bring that team but it COOKED in tests. Idk why there's a Bisharp, it's probably to remind everyone that gambit is unfairly banned.
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- best rain team of the world no cap. that archaludon set is NUTS (shoutout Palapapop for the set, and the team overall), Gyarados is GOAT, and rain is broken. 3 weeks spamming boring balance but that day I brought rain I found inner peace
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- idea 1 i had for finals, wanted to take advantage of Ivar's high Toxapex, Ttar, Rotom, and Ting Lu use, and that wwake is kinda good at it. Cornerstone is also broken, rest of the team is there at a first throw but I never really finished it. Still like the idea
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- - - idea 2, wanted to build around around hands too lol cuz pex / ting lu / ttar you know that stuff, moltres to punish tusk, ting lu to koff its pads if necessary. Really slow team that relies a lot on hands being able to break which is not the case in that team (lunar dance latios was also an idea Siamato had but with Keldeo, was a good call). Also 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion
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- - finals team, keldeo cuz high pex / ttar / ting lu use, I didn't expect malignant chain to break my subs so the idea was useless lmao. rest of the team is FAT cuz it's kinda good, kommo-o is the only cornerstone check, blissey is funny ? and it went amazing into the game. Ting lu was slowking-g 1h before the game but then I realised i had no answers to ttar and also no ground and no dark and no knock off and ting lu is just good. 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion (I've heard that before), anyway Ivar is a real gamer so he doesn't bring stupid playstyles to win
unban gambit unban wicked torque ban rain ban SCARF MAMOSWINE thank you
stab was 2nd best meta to play in bo3 but it feels a bit MU reliant, rain is absurd and I often accepted that I would lose to it cuz I can't bring volcanion or clodsire every game and even w/o rain I feel like you just roll with stuff and hope you won't load into one of the things that destroy you - when that doesn't happen, games are actually cool, it just felt very frustrating bc 20% of the time I had fun and 80% I was just losing despite trying cool stuff.
same as in mnm though, kinda sad that it's dead here, no samples update since may, a VR that ngl has very little sense, I know OMs aren't in a good spot overall and I've had a lot of critics with other tiers like GG but at least a part of their council has been active and tried to make their tier live, I find it a bit sad to have so little interest over here, exacerbated by some weird tiering decisions that weren't even followed up
anyway, onto the teams I used during wcup
- - - - - - toxapex = broken and it's 99% of the time a bad idea to not use it, walking wake = broken breaker even though it would appreciate a knock user on that team, volcanion broken mon, takes advantage of toxapex and patches rain MU. Then Sylveon is the cool pick, we already loved that mon 1y ago and having court change is still broken, lando is mandatory scarf, not the craziest team but a bunch of solid stuff that makes this team good but not amazing - - - - - - man this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you build cool teams and then you load in a bad MU and you just cry. This team was like, really cool, and I really would have liked to have a good game with it. But the MU into Thundurus Rain was just bad, and I lost the 50/50 I needed to not lose and I couldn't play. That was not fun. Boulder is kinda bad bc ppl spams ting lu way more than I thought, specs hydrapple goated and I still don't know if Incineroar sucks or not (it probably does). Still got my boy pex bc it's broken - - - - - - this team was solid and sub np ghold is kinda good if you're able to wear down ting lu but well cornerstone is also broken so don't load into that haha. Not a cool team but it's solid - - - - - - no one allowed me to bring that team but it COOKED in tests. Idk why there's a Bisharp, it's probably to remind everyone that gambit is unfairly banned. - - - - - - best rain team of the world no cap. that archaludon set is NUTS (shoutout Palapapop for the set, and the team overall), Gyarados is GOAT, and rain is broken. 3 weeks spamming boring balance but that day I brought rain I found inner peace - - - - - - idea 1 i had for finals, wanted to take advantage of Ivar's high Toxapex, Ttar, Rotom, and Ting Lu use, and that wwake is kinda good at it. Cornerstone is also broken, rest of the team is there at a first throw but I never really finished it. Still like the idea - - - - - - idea 2, wanted to build around around hands too lol cuz pex / ting lu / ttar you know that stuff, moltres to punish tusk, ting lu to koff its pads if necessary. Really slow team that relies a lot on hands being able to break which is not the case in that team (lunar dance latios was also an idea Siamato had but with Keldeo, was a good call). Also 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion - - - - - - finals team, keldeo cuz high pex / ttar / ting lu use, I didn't expect malignant chain to break my subs so the idea was useless lmao. rest of the team is FAT cuz it's kinda good, kommo-o is the only cornerstone check, blissey is funny ? and it went amazing into the game. Ting lu was slowking-g 1h before the game but then I realised i had no answers to ttar and also no ground and no dark and no knock off and ting lu is just good. 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion (I've heard that before), anyway Ivar is a real gamer so he doesn't bring stupid playstyles to winunban gambit unban wicked torque ban rain ban SCARF MAMOSWINE thank you
We will be addressing everything including past bans in the survey in the coming weeks.can't wait for the kingambit vote later on at this mon really didn't deserve to be banned :(
stab was 2nd best meta to play in bo3 but it feels a bit MU reliant, rain is absurd and I often accepted that I would lose to it cuz I can't bring volcanion or clodsire every game and even w/o rain I feel like you just roll with stuff and hope you won't load into one of the things that destroy you - when that doesn't happen, games are actually cool, it just felt very frustrating bc 20% of the time I had fun and 80% I was just losing despite trying cool stuff.
same as in mnm though, kinda sad that it's dead here, no samples update since may, a VR that ngl has very little sense, I know OMs aren't in a good spot overall and I've had a lot of critics with other tiers like GG but at least a part of their council has been active and tried to make their tier live, I find it a bit sad to have so little interest over here, exacerbated by some weird tiering decisions that weren't even followed up
anyway, onto the teams I used during wcup
unban gambit unban wicked torque ban rain ban SCARF MAMOSWINE thank you
The samples are actually up to date just, no one submits despite me asking them so I have to upload some teams to fill the spots. Hopefully more people submit post-OMWC teams so I can cherry pick the highest quality ones that aren't tournament fish (some of yours may be picked).
Everything has been quite chaotic since the Tera ban, so we've been gradually chipping away at the tier and it's problems (it was way worse back post-OMPL).
I just hope we reach a state that maintains the sheer variety inherent to STABmons without becoming too centralized or matchup heavy.
Hello everyone, this is the first time posting something like this but I think it is the right time for this after OMWC and an apparently upcoming survey.
First off my teams from OMWC:
- - - - - - Grassy Terrain Offense
This was the first team built for OMWC by me in a relatively unexplored meta since the changes after OMPL.
Meloetta is the main sweeper of the team with Esper Wing + Take Heart + Grassy Seed + Recover and Boomburst being super spammable.
Rillaboom is just broken with Flower Trick ignoring all punishments physical moves usually have to care about (Helmet, Static, Intimidate…)
Scarf Gholdengo gives this team some much-needed Speed while being able to trick one of the defensive answers like Ting-Lu in order to setup the Meloetta Sweep. Make It Rain can be Tachyon Cutter and Recover can be whatever.
Level 99 Toxapex is funny because the Toxapex Mirror comes up often and underspeeding to gain momentum is helpful. Having Toxapex as the only removal can make a couple Match Ups really stressfull but this team is pretty good into fat and these are usually the only ones that stack hazards.
Ogerpon-Cornerstone is one of my favorites of the tier, it also the last remaining masked Ogerpon.
The Rock Grass Stab Combination is insane as a breaker and Pyro Ball helps vs Steels like Ghold. Corv or Skarm. Diamond Storm + SD Boosts can also get out of hand quickly ending the game early.
Lando was just a really good filler since this team is pretty ground weak despite grassy terrain because of Headlong Rush while also providing Stealth Rocks since I didn’t want to run Stone Axe on Ogerpon. Imprison can be whatever again but its funny in the Mirror and denies hazards and recovery from other ground types.
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- Fsight CB Weavile Balance
This is probably the finest dish of the cooking and the overall best team in this post.
Slowking is cool because it underspeeds Toxapex while also setting up Future Sights for Weavile.
I don’t know if Weezing-Galar was ever used before but that Mon is insanely good since it disables AV Toxapex to recover itself with Neutralizing Gas while also walling Rillaboom and being able to defog on Gholdengo is incredible. Receiving Moonlight through Stabmons is also really appreciated turning it into a really good Mon.
Zapdos was here to wall Ground Types while also providing some momentum, yellow magic and finally hitting its flying moves.
Scarf Gholdengo is once again the best Speed Control here while having a generally broken type combination + ability. There is pretty much no reason to not use this mon if you still need some Speed and like keeping Stealth Rocks up.
Ting-Lu is the final defensive part of the core. It is already super good in Metagames without any recovery, now it has access to Shore Up and Parting Shot while walling the dominant Gholdengo and more or less every cheesy special attacker.
CB Weavile just clicks buttons. Having a contactless 120BP, 100ACC Ice Stab Move is a dream and there are barely any mons that don’t get 2shot, especially when Future Sight is up and Knock threatens to remove Heavy Duty Boots from other bulky walls.
- - - - - - Forretress HO
I stole this Forretress idea from Fissure back in OMPL since Sturdy + Custap + Metal Burst is amazing. Forretress can remove any hazards on lead and/or gets Webs and/or Stealth Rocks up on lead, which is just super funny.
Ogerpon-Cornerstone does nearly the same as in the first team. Instead of having some small recovery and damage boost, this time it’s faster than everything with webs up.
Latios + Gholdengo are nice Eject Pack users to gather chip for easier cleaning while providing support with Healing Wish to heal up one of the sweepers and some yellow magic to disrupt opposing speedcontrol.
Gyarados is your main Healing Wish Abuser and a super scary sweeper with Punching Gloves boosted Jet Punch/Surging Strikes and Dragon Ascent as its first good Flying Stab. The only real way to punish it, is to chip it on the setup turn(s) and revenging it.
Darkrai is somewhat being slept on (haha!). The Speed Tier is really good and it gets access to so many coverage moves. Focus Blast/Thunder/Psychic are all good as well. On this team it makes most of your progress midgame.
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- - Cloyster HO
I have absolutely no clue how I ended up with a Cloyster HO MIRROR in semifinals….??
Cloyster should probably be full Special Attack but anyways those 4 moves are broken and have barely any resistances in the tier. Life Orb Further amplifies the damage makes this an insane sweeper.
The main idea behind Iron Valiant was to use it as a progress maker during midgame since the opponent has to respect fighting coverage so not having it wouldn’t matter as much. This mainly trades a kill with sd into attack and hopefully a second one with Destiny Bond since no one expects the +2 Valiant to click Destiny Bond.
Volcarona is another Sweeper/Cleaner but unfortunately only the majority of its match ups are flip match ups. Either it’s good or walled by 3 mons but it still helps a lot against Rillaboom which dismantles this team so having Flame Body against Grassy Glide is incredibly helpful.
Samurott-Hisui is the Lead and gets off some spikes while preventing opposing hazards with Taunt and potentially gaining even more value with Memento.
Zama is still broken on the right teams and helps this team more vs priority spam while being able to spread some paralysis and get some surprise KO’s with Stone Edge on stuff like Zapdos or Moltres.
Finally, Air Balloon Gholdengo makes sure that Spikes stay up and acts as a stall breaker on this team. No steel move and recover is odd and can get a lot of surprise KO’s with its unusual coverage.
- 
- - - rotom-wash: - 
- Umbreon Goodra-H Balance
We cooked a 5 Star dish an hour before finals and yea idk what this even is
Umbreon is completely utterly insane and should not be used but I saw potential in the wish parting shot combination on such a bulky Mon and it worked really well in test games.
Goodra-Hisui is completely utterly insane and should not be used but I saw potential in the parting shot combination to recover such a bulky Mon like this. Doom Desire is also a nice and underrated tool and helps this team break through. With AV, this Mon eats everything and gets Knock Offs on many defensive pivots.
Weezing-Galar is amazing again, here helping with bulkier hazard stack teams.
Zamazenta serves as the main cleaner with Substitute + Bulk Up and getting wished back up by Umbreon after spreading paralysis on its potential checks beating them the 2nd time.
Rotom-Wash is really good as a breaker even though this is a rather unusual set with no recovery. Once again its recovery relies on Umbreon but Leftovers + Protect do the job. Burning Bulkwark Helps to lure Rillaboom since Weezing-Galar, Rotom’s Base Speed and Goodra Hisui all dissuade it from pressing its only non-contact Move burning it in the process.
Last but not least I decided for Gliscor as it helps vs Raging Bolt more than Landorus while getting Spikes up more reliably and having more passive healing. Beak Blast is a nice tool to help vs some choiced attackers.
The descriptions got shorter towards the end but I think I made the main idea behind each mon clear and sometimes there isn’t much to say. The tier is quite underexplored as Mons like Weezing-G, Umbreon or Goodra-H all hadn’t seen much usage before and performed excellent showing that there is a lot of hidden potential in this tier. I also barely reused any mons and there are often multiple mons for a certain roles making most teams pretty diverse, but all of it needs to be explored imo.
Now at the end I want to suggest some potential tiering decisions I already voiced in the Europe teamcord which could be considered to include in the survey (pretty please >.<)
BAN FLOWER TRICK, this is the roots of all evil (Lilligant-H, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Ogerpon-Wellspring although this might still be broken, Rillaboom)
Ban Boomburst, 140BP 100Acc, this also unbans PZ(probably useless) and Zoroak-H (could be good)
Unban Dragapult, ik ik but both Dragon Energy and Astral Barrage have been banned making it way less dangerous on the special side. I think it should at least be tested
Unban Gambit, idek what he did but this seems to be getting discussed anyways
Suspect Gholdengo, Gholdengo was the main reason for the astral barrage ban, I think if Dragapult does not get unbanned I believe restricting Gholdengo is a better option than banning astral barrage since it is still very obnoxious
Suspect Ursaluna, not too sure about this one, might be trolling a bit but I can see it not being broken
Suspect Ursaluna Bloodmoon, if Boomburst gets banned I think this should be considered
Suspect Terapagos, only if Boomburst gets banned
Unban Tera, I think this tier needs it honestly but this requires a complete change of the meta
Finally, Shoutouts to SammyCe123 and Ivar57 who helped me building most of this heat stuff and to all the other people who gave input from time to time
First off my teams from OMWC:
- - - - - - Grassy Terrain OffenseThis was the first team built for OMWC by me in a relatively unexplored meta since the changes after OMPL.
Meloetta is the main sweeper of the team with Esper Wing + Take Heart + Grassy Seed + Recover and Boomburst being super spammable.
Rillaboom is just broken with Flower Trick ignoring all punishments physical moves usually have to care about (Helmet, Static, Intimidate…)
Scarf Gholdengo gives this team some much-needed Speed while being able to trick one of the defensive answers like Ting-Lu in order to setup the Meloetta Sweep. Make It Rain can be Tachyon Cutter and Recover can be whatever.
Level 99 Toxapex is funny because the Toxapex Mirror comes up often and underspeeding to gain momentum is helpful. Having Toxapex as the only removal can make a couple Match Ups really stressfull but this team is pretty good into fat and these are usually the only ones that stack hazards.
Ogerpon-Cornerstone is one of my favorites of the tier, it also the last remaining masked Ogerpon.
The Rock Grass Stab Combination is insane as a breaker and Pyro Ball helps vs Steels like Ghold. Corv or Skarm. Diamond Storm + SD Boosts can also get out of hand quickly ending the game early.
Lando was just a really good filler since this team is pretty ground weak despite grassy terrain because of Headlong Rush while also providing Stealth Rocks since I didn’t want to run Stone Axe on Ogerpon. Imprison can be whatever again but its funny in the Mirror and denies hazards and recovery from other ground types.
- - - - - - Fsight CB Weavile BalanceThis is probably the finest dish of the cooking and the overall best team in this post.
Slowking is cool because it underspeeds Toxapex while also setting up Future Sights for Weavile.
I don’t know if Weezing-Galar was ever used before but that Mon is insanely good since it disables AV Toxapex to recover itself with Neutralizing Gas while also walling Rillaboom and being able to defog on Gholdengo is incredible. Receiving Moonlight through Stabmons is also really appreciated turning it into a really good Mon.
Zapdos was here to wall Ground Types while also providing some momentum, yellow magic and finally hitting its flying moves.
Scarf Gholdengo is once again the best Speed Control here while having a generally broken type combination + ability. There is pretty much no reason to not use this mon if you still need some Speed and like keeping Stealth Rocks up.
Ting-Lu is the final defensive part of the core. It is already super good in Metagames without any recovery, now it has access to Shore Up and Parting Shot while walling the dominant Gholdengo and more or less every cheesy special attacker.
CB Weavile just clicks buttons. Having a contactless 120BP, 100ACC Ice Stab Move is a dream and there are barely any mons that don’t get 2shot, especially when Future Sight is up and Knock threatens to remove Heavy Duty Boots from other bulky walls.
- - - - - - Forretress HOI stole this Forretress idea from Fissure back in OMPL since Sturdy + Custap + Metal Burst is amazing. Forretress can remove any hazards on lead and/or gets Webs and/or Stealth Rocks up on lead, which is just super funny.
Ogerpon-Cornerstone does nearly the same as in the first team. Instead of having some small recovery and damage boost, this time it’s faster than everything with webs up.
Latios + Gholdengo are nice Eject Pack users to gather chip for easier cleaning while providing support with Healing Wish to heal up one of the sweepers and some yellow magic to disrupt opposing speedcontrol.
Gyarados is your main Healing Wish Abuser and a super scary sweeper with Punching Gloves boosted Jet Punch/Surging Strikes and Dragon Ascent as its first good Flying Stab. The only real way to punish it, is to chip it on the setup turn(s) and revenging it.
Darkrai is somewhat being slept on (haha!). The Speed Tier is really good and it gets access to so many coverage moves. Focus Blast/Thunder/Psychic are all good as well. On this team it makes most of your progress midgame.
- - - - - - Cloyster HOI have absolutely no clue how I ended up with a Cloyster HO MIRROR in semifinals….??
Cloyster should probably be full Special Attack but anyways those 4 moves are broken and have barely any resistances in the tier. Life Orb Further amplifies the damage makes this an insane sweeper.
The main idea behind Iron Valiant was to use it as a progress maker during midgame since the opponent has to respect fighting coverage so not having it wouldn’t matter as much. This mainly trades a kill with sd into attack and hopefully a second one with Destiny Bond since no one expects the +2 Valiant to click Destiny Bond.
Volcarona is another Sweeper/Cleaner but unfortunately only the majority of its match ups are flip match ups. Either it’s good or walled by 3 mons but it still helps a lot against Rillaboom which dismantles this team so having Flame Body against Grassy Glide is incredibly helpful.
Samurott-Hisui is the Lead and gets off some spikes while preventing opposing hazards with Taunt and potentially gaining even more value with Memento.
Zama is still broken on the right teams and helps this team more vs priority spam while being able to spread some paralysis and get some surprise KO’s with Stone Edge on stuff like Zapdos or Moltres.
Finally, Air Balloon Gholdengo makes sure that Spikes stay up and acts as a stall breaker on this team. No steel move and recover is odd and can get a lot of surprise KO’s with its unusual coverage.
- - - - rotom-wash: - - Umbreon Goodra-H BalanceWe cooked a 5 Star dish an hour before finals and yea idk what this even is
Umbreon is completely utterly insane and should not be used but I saw potential in the wish parting shot combination on such a bulky Mon and it worked really well in test games.
Goodra-Hisui is completely utterly insane and should not be used but I saw potential in the parting shot combination to recover such a bulky Mon like this. Doom Desire is also a nice and underrated tool and helps this team break through. With AV, this Mon eats everything and gets Knock Offs on many defensive pivots.
Weezing-Galar is amazing again, here helping with bulkier hazard stack teams.
Zamazenta serves as the main cleaner with Substitute + Bulk Up and getting wished back up by Umbreon after spreading paralysis on its potential checks beating them the 2nd time.
Rotom-Wash is really good as a breaker even though this is a rather unusual set with no recovery. Once again its recovery relies on Umbreon but Leftovers + Protect do the job. Burning Bulkwark Helps to lure Rillaboom since Weezing-Galar, Rotom’s Base Speed and Goodra Hisui all dissuade it from pressing its only non-contact Move burning it in the process.
Last but not least I decided for Gliscor as it helps vs Raging Bolt more than Landorus while getting Spikes up more reliably and having more passive healing. Beak Blast is a nice tool to help vs some choiced attackers.
The descriptions got shorter towards the end but I think I made the main idea behind each mon clear and sometimes there isn’t much to say. The tier is quite underexplored as Mons like Weezing-G, Umbreon or Goodra-H all hadn’t seen much usage before and performed excellent showing that there is a lot of hidden potential in this tier. I also barely reused any mons and there are often multiple mons for a certain roles making most teams pretty diverse, but all of it needs to be explored imo.
Now at the end I want to suggest some potential tiering decisions I already voiced in the Europe teamcord which could be considered to include in the survey (pretty please >.<)
BAN FLOWER TRICK, this is the roots of all evil (Lilligant-H, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Ogerpon-Wellspring although this might still be broken, Rillaboom)
Ban Boomburst, 140BP 100Acc, this also unbans PZ(probably useless) and Zoroak-H (could be good)
Unban Dragapult, ik ik but both Dragon Energy and Astral Barrage have been banned making it way less dangerous on the special side. I think it should at least be tested
Unban Gambit, idek what he did but this seems to be getting discussed anyways
Suspect Gholdengo, Gholdengo was the main reason for the astral barrage ban, I think if Dragapult does not get unbanned I believe restricting Gholdengo is a better option than banning astral barrage since it is still very obnoxious
Suspect Ursaluna, not too sure about this one, might be trolling a bit but I can see it not being broken
Suspect Ursaluna Bloodmoon, if Boomburst gets banned I think this should be considered
Suspect Terapagos, only if Boomburst gets banned
Unban Tera, I think this tier needs it honestly but this requires a complete change of the meta
Finally, Shoutouts to SammyCe123 and Ivar57 who helped me building most of this heat stuff and to all the other people who gave input from time to time
So, as you will hear shortly with the survey release, there is a new sheriff in the STABmons council, NeonJolteonWasUsed is now the Tier Leader of STABmons!
As you may have noticed over the past 6 months my ability to focus on STABmons has waned due to a combination of factors, mostly IRL related but also related to my duty as TL of all OMs officially. Simply put I've been very busy and don't have the time and to an extent desire to put what I feel is necessary towards STABmons and it's resources, and thus Neon will take this duty from me. This is a full stepping down from council as well.
It has been fun, and I enjoyed it but I feel it is best that a new head is to lead STABmons for this gen and potentially longer.
(I am still OMTL btw, this isn't changing anytime in the foreseeable future.)
As you may have noticed over the past 6 months my ability to focus on STABmons has waned due to a combination of factors, mostly IRL related but also related to my duty as TL of all OMs officially. Simply put I've been very busy and don't have the time and to an extent desire to put what I feel is necessary towards STABmons and it's resources, and thus Neon will take this duty from me. This is a full stepping down from council as well.
It has been fun, and I enjoyed it but I feel it is best that a new head is to lead STABmons for this gen and potentially longer.
(I am still OMTL btw, this isn't changing anytime in the foreseeable future.)
STABmons Fall Survey
As stated before, this is the survey mentioned. Your participation in this one is extremely important, and it is aimed to be as inclusive in what we've heard discussed as possible. If you have any interest in STABmons at all, I urge you whenever you get the chance to fill this out in order to help shape this tier's future.
As stated before, this is the survey mentioned. Your participation in this one is extremely important, and it is aimed to be as inclusive in what we've heard discussed as possible. If you have any interest in STABmons at all, I urge you whenever you get the chance to fill this out in order to help shape this tier's future.
On the topic of what has been stated before. I would like to express my gratitude to everyone on council who has helped this tier come as far as it had. Recently many had stepped down, FC, Palapop, and as you heard above, Giagantic. I intend to continue to carry this tier on to the absolute best of my ability. Gia, FC, Pala, thank you. As someone who has followed and loved this tier since Gen 7, it is an absolute honor to have worked alongside you all, even if we don't agree much in terms of tiering, I want you to know that working on council with you has been an absolute blast. Now leading the tier that I once held so dearly is certainly big shoes to fill, but I want to assure you all that I will do everything in my power fulfill this honor to the best of my ability. Once more, I extend my thanks to everyone on council, and everyone who has supported this tier for any amount of time. I will not let you down.
- (Hopefully) Your pal, Neon.
- (Hopefully) Your pal, Neon.
Hey all! This thing on? Good. I'm sure many of you will be happy to hear this. So I'm gonna say it loud for the people in the back.
Damp Rock is now banned from STABmons!
Damp Rock is now banned from STABmons!
| . | Neon | Bonk | xdRudi.exe | RoFnA |
| Damp Rock | Ban | Ban | Ban | DNB |
As a result of the recent survey (which will be getting its own post soon, don't worry.), and the massive outcry against Rain as a whole by the general community, Damp Rock has as a result been banned from the tier.
Rain had already been pushing the limits of its threat level before, but its unbalance has come to a head with the Basculegion Forms, as if existing threats such as Walking Wake, Archaludon, Raging Bolt, and Barraskewda weren't enough, the two forms of Basculegion are near unstoppable wallbreakers under rain, reaching absurd feats with Adaptability like Female 2HKOing Blissey from full HP with even just Rain boosted Steam Eruption, and Male having an extremely high roll of 2HKOing Dondozo with Poltergeist. Enabling Rain to have essentially automatic win buttons VS bulkier teams and still annihilate faster teams with Pokemon like Barraskewda and Walking Wake.
Banning the Basculegion forms was another way of handling this situation, however, Rain as a whole has been a controversial topic in the community in general, to say nothing of the extreme shift towards Rain itself being inherently broken on its own regardless of these two additions, it is within the interest of the metagame to ban Damp Rock outright.
Now I'm sure you're wondering. "That's it? That's all they voted on? What about everything else?".
If you participated in the survey, you may recall Terastalization was up for voting, however, due to its incredibly centralizing nature in and of itself, if action were to be taken on it, it would be heavily prioritized over everything else.
You see where I'm going with this, right?
Yep.
Terastalization will be receiving a Suspect Text in the near future!
Rain had already been pushing the limits of its threat level before, but its unbalance has come to a head with the Basculegion Forms, as if existing threats such as Walking Wake, Archaludon, Raging Bolt, and Barraskewda weren't enough, the two forms of Basculegion are near unstoppable wallbreakers under rain, reaching absurd feats with Adaptability like Female 2HKOing Blissey from full HP with even just Rain boosted Steam Eruption, and Male having an extremely high roll of 2HKOing Dondozo with Poltergeist. Enabling Rain to have essentially automatic win buttons VS bulkier teams and still annihilate faster teams with Pokemon like Barraskewda and Walking Wake.
Banning the Basculegion forms was another way of handling this situation, however, Rain as a whole has been a controversial topic in the community in general, to say nothing of the extreme shift towards Rain itself being inherently broken on its own regardless of these two additions, it is within the interest of the metagame to ban Damp Rock outright.
Now I'm sure you're wondering. "That's it? That's all they voted on? What about everything else?".
If you participated in the survey, you may recall Terastalization was up for voting, however, due to its incredibly centralizing nature in and of itself, if action were to be taken on it, it would be heavily prioritized over everything else.
You see where I'm going with this, right?
Yep.
Terastalization will be receiving a Suspect Text in the near future!
| . | Neon | Bonk | xdRudi.exe | RoFnA |
| Terastalization | Suspect | DNS | Suspect | Suspect |
The results on Terastalization were relatively split, with many heavily supporting its unban, and many heavily supporting keeping it banned. As a result, we found it best to let the community decide Tera's fate once and for all before moving forward with this tier.
As for the rest of the results. Don't worry! We're keeping those in mind! A post on the results of the survey will be made soon, and with the conclusion of this soon to be suspect, we will be acting on the rest. Like mentioned before, Tera is taking heavy priority over most other action simply because of the nature of the mechanic changing up so much. Damp Rock is simply a factor that is known to be broken regardless of the state of Tera being in the meta or not, which is why it received action. Expect the suspect post up some time soon!
Thank you for tuning in, and happy holidays!
Tagging dhelmise for implementation of the Damp Rock Ban.
As for the rest of the results. Don't worry! We're keeping those in mind! A post on the results of the survey will be made soon, and with the conclusion of this soon to be suspect, we will be acting on the rest. Like mentioned before, Tera is taking heavy priority over most other action simply because of the nature of the mechanic changing up so much. Damp Rock is simply a factor that is known to be broken regardless of the state of Tera being in the meta or not, which is why it received action. Expect the suspect post up some time soon!
Thank you for tuning in, and happy holidays!
Tagging dhelmise for implementation of the Damp Rock Ban.
Last edited:
STABmons Fall Survey Results!
Hey all! Back again. This time with the results of the recent STABmons Fall survey.
I don't want to waste too much of your time, so let's just get to the important stuff. This is going to be a loooooooooooong post.
Enjoyability
3.2/5 Mean.
Surprising, but interesting. Not much to comment here besides that the reception of the tier is still somewhat positive despite its many slips.
Competitive Integrity
2.8/5 Mean.
This? Not so great. The chart very heavily leans towards being on the fence or somewhat against the tier's competitive integrity. We're sorry to hear this, and will be doing our absolute best to make this tier better in this regard.
Jet Punch
2.1/5 Mean.
Jet Punch has its fair share of critics, but not enough to sway the general opinion of it being a balanced move in the metagame, no action will be taken in the foreseeable future.
Surging Strikes
2.8/5 Mean.
Surging Strikes has always been quite contentious, and though it seems the overall playerbase believes it to be either fine or on the edge, this is a move we will be paying attention to moving forward.
Water Spout
2.5/5 Mean.
This may seem like an odd choice to gauge community opinion on, however, there have been quite a few vocal outcries against the move, and with the general mixed reception of the move, it seems those outcries are not without reasoning. This is another move we will be paying close attention to for the foreseeable future.
Flower Trick
3.4/5 Mean.
Community tends to shift towards Flower Trick being broken, not helped by its distribution and its inherently powerful mechanics as a guaranteed crit move, regardless of the result of the Tera suspect, action will be taken on Flower Trick in the form of a council vote to decide on whether to restrict this move.
Damp Rock
4.2/5 Mean.
No surprises here, I hate rain, you hate rain, we all hate rain here, good riddance.
Latios
2.5/5 Mean.
Many people seem to be on the fence regarding Latios, even after all of the tools it has had taken, it still manages to be an unpredictable, powerful, and dominant threat in the tier, we will be keeping a close eye on this Pokemon for the foreseeable future.
Thundurus Therian
2.1/5 Mean.
Opinion on Thundurus Therian skews relatively towards it being balanced with many somewhere between it being balanced and broken regarding it, though this may be subject to change, and Thundurus Therian is still quite a volatile Pokemon, it is unlikely action will be taken on it unless massive discoveries or changes are made with this Pokemon.
Gholdengo
2.8/5 Mean.
Seems people can't bet their chips one way or another on Gholdengo overall at the moment, many are on the fence, with a couple completely for banning it, though there is also a similarly large group believing it to be perfectly fine. This Pokemon will be watched closely in the near future, and likely be surveyed on again before a conclusion on what to do next about it is drawn.
Zamazenta
2.5/5 Mean.
Though this may change heavily depending on the results of the Tera suspect, Zamazenta is not a high priority among players. Though the mean score is straight down the middle, the chart skews more towards the lower end as a whole mostly changed by some outliers, this Pokemon will be re-surveyed once more, or have action taken depending on the result of the Tera suspect and general community opinion.
Landorus Therian
1.7/5 Mean.
Unsurprising, but taken simply for the sake of some of Landorus Therian's more volatile tools. Despite such powerful sets as Swords Dance and Choice Band, Landorus Therian's presence is generally highly appreciated in the tier, no action will be taken.
Kingambit
2.6/5 Mean.
Community leans slightly in favor of unbanning than they do keeping Kingambit, which is understandable, regardless of the result of the Tera suspect, Kingambit will almost certainly be one of the first to be tested back into the tier!
Terastallization
2.8/5 Mean.
This is likely what you all are here for. As you can see, this chart is pretty heavily split, with a large camp of people for banning it, a large camp of people for unbanning it, and those mostly on the fence, this polarizing severance between the community is the motive behind Terastallization's suspect test. Though some things on this survey scored higher, a lot of opinions on them have potential to change with the result of this suspect test, and thus, while we're not passing them to the side, it is more important to settle this before dealing with anything else.
That about concludes our survey results! If you participated in this, thank you so much! We're in need of this feedback more than ever, and hope to see you stick it through with us to get this tier back on track.
Thank you, and happy suspecting!
Hey all! Back again. This time with the results of the recent STABmons Fall survey.
I don't want to waste too much of your time, so let's just get to the important stuff. This is going to be a loooooooooooong post.
Enjoyability
3.2/5 Mean.
Surprising, but interesting. Not much to comment here besides that the reception of the tier is still somewhat positive despite its many slips.
Competitive Integrity
2.8/5 Mean.
This? Not so great. The chart very heavily leans towards being on the fence or somewhat against the tier's competitive integrity. We're sorry to hear this, and will be doing our absolute best to make this tier better in this regard.
Jet Punch
2.1/5 Mean.
Jet Punch has its fair share of critics, but not enough to sway the general opinion of it being a balanced move in the metagame, no action will be taken in the foreseeable future.
Surging Strikes
2.8/5 Mean.
Surging Strikes has always been quite contentious, and though it seems the overall playerbase believes it to be either fine or on the edge, this is a move we will be paying attention to moving forward.
Water Spout
2.5/5 Mean.
This may seem like an odd choice to gauge community opinion on, however, there have been quite a few vocal outcries against the move, and with the general mixed reception of the move, it seems those outcries are not without reasoning. This is another move we will be paying close attention to for the foreseeable future.
Flower Trick
3.4/5 Mean.
Community tends to shift towards Flower Trick being broken, not helped by its distribution and its inherently powerful mechanics as a guaranteed crit move, regardless of the result of the Tera suspect, action will be taken on Flower Trick in the form of a council vote to decide on whether to restrict this move.
Damp Rock
4.2/5 Mean.
No surprises here, I hate rain, you hate rain, we all hate rain here, good riddance.
Latios
2.5/5 Mean.
Many people seem to be on the fence regarding Latios, even after all of the tools it has had taken, it still manages to be an unpredictable, powerful, and dominant threat in the tier, we will be keeping a close eye on this Pokemon for the foreseeable future.
Thundurus Therian
2.1/5 Mean.
Opinion on Thundurus Therian skews relatively towards it being balanced with many somewhere between it being balanced and broken regarding it, though this may be subject to change, and Thundurus Therian is still quite a volatile Pokemon, it is unlikely action will be taken on it unless massive discoveries or changes are made with this Pokemon.
Gholdengo
2.8/5 Mean.
Seems people can't bet their chips one way or another on Gholdengo overall at the moment, many are on the fence, with a couple completely for banning it, though there is also a similarly large group believing it to be perfectly fine. This Pokemon will be watched closely in the near future, and likely be surveyed on again before a conclusion on what to do next about it is drawn.
Zamazenta
2.5/5 Mean.
Though this may change heavily depending on the results of the Tera suspect, Zamazenta is not a high priority among players. Though the mean score is straight down the middle, the chart skews more towards the lower end as a whole mostly changed by some outliers, this Pokemon will be re-surveyed once more, or have action taken depending on the result of the Tera suspect and general community opinion.
Landorus Therian
1.7/5 Mean.
Unsurprising, but taken simply for the sake of some of Landorus Therian's more volatile tools. Despite such powerful sets as Swords Dance and Choice Band, Landorus Therian's presence is generally highly appreciated in the tier, no action will be taken.
Kingambit
2.6/5 Mean.
Community leans slightly in favor of unbanning than they do keeping Kingambit, which is understandable, regardless of the result of the Tera suspect, Kingambit will almost certainly be one of the first to be tested back into the tier!
Terastallization
2.8/5 Mean.
This is likely what you all are here for. As you can see, this chart is pretty heavily split, with a large camp of people for banning it, a large camp of people for unbanning it, and those mostly on the fence, this polarizing severance between the community is the motive behind Terastallization's suspect test. Though some things on this survey scored higher, a lot of opinions on them have potential to change with the result of this suspect test, and thus, while we're not passing them to the side, it is more important to settle this before dealing with anything else.
That about concludes our survey results! If you participated in this, thank you so much! We're in need of this feedback more than ever, and hope to see you stick it through with us to get this tier back on track.
Thank you, and happy suspecting!
Last edited:
Flower Trick has been Restricted and Final Gambit has been changed from fully banned to Restricted!
| NeonJolteonWasUsed | Slither Wing | xdRudi.exe | RoFnA | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Flower Trick | Restrict | Restrict | Restrict | Do Not Restrict |
| Surging Strikes | Do Not Restrict | Do Not Restrict | Restrict | Do Not Restrict |
| Final Gambit* | Change to Restricted | Change to Restricted | Change to Restricted | Change to Restricted |
And with a Flower Trick restriction another vote was held, and as a result Lilligant-Hisui has been Unbanned!
| NeonJolteonWasUsed | Slither Wing | xdRudi.exe | RoFnA | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lilligant-Hisui | Unban | Keep Banned | Unban | Unban |
Tagging dhelmise for implementation
STABmons Winter Survey
It's that time again! You know the drill. Submit your responses, and we'll act from there!
Furthermore, I'd like to congratulate Kinetic on their newfound position on council! We look forward to working with you.
Thank you to everyone for sticking with us, every response you bring to us is bringing us closer to getting this tier to its fullest potential.
It's that time again! You know the drill. Submit your responses, and we'll act from there!
Furthermore, I'd like to congratulate Kinetic on their newfound position on council! We look forward to working with you.
Thank you to everyone for sticking with us, every response you bring to us is bringing us closer to getting this tier to its fullest potential.
Prob one of the best STAB teams I've made in a min ngl, everything feels rlly clean and most mu's r winnable. There r also some nice techs and has a nice spin on the water AV mon w primarina being an amazing spdef glue. Booster moth is a threat if prima doesn't get good shuriken rolls/bolt gets the sub turn wrong.
Outside of this, I wanted to comment on the survey as I hope there is a bit more action that comes from this. The previous survey indicates that moves such as surging, punch, and steam/spout are here to stay, which is fine, but I personally think action needs to be taken on the abusers then.
This mon is borderline but I think offers more positives to the meta and is able to be handled well enough. I think of the two variants, bands or boots, both have immense trade-offs that mean it is not able to fully do what it wants to a 'broken' degree. Glacial is sus tho ngl, basically barrage but no immunities to shut it out completely, I'd rather look at glacial than weavile if the time ever did come.
Its snowball potential, being able to circumvent contact cplay w glove, and loading the right coverage (dscent or eq) make this mon one of the scariest late game cleaners/sweepers. It being able to beat mons like rbolt if it gets one or two turns right is kind of crazy. I think this mon is a bit too unhealthy and the meta would be better off without it as it is clearly the best abuser of a lot of the tools STAB offers. Priority, surging, and coverage to choose what its beating/losing to just make this mon a headache to deal with in builder/game.
This mon is dumb. It is able to pretty mindlessly beat its counters and enables its teammates to an unhealthy degree. Here it gets the option of priority and more consistent high damage options for both stabs (clanging>draco and steam>hydro), with it also having the ability to spread status w eruption is absurd. Either qb or sus imo,,, but I wouldn't complain w speeding the process up w a qb.
A mon I think is actually good for the meta, the only scary thing ab it is its set diversity, but even then it isn't as game ending as something like gyara being eq or dscent. This is mainly because it lacks priority and if it does decide to boost speed its running less power/needs time to set-up which usually doesn't end well for it. Lati also offers great role compression with its resists, ability to take on spikestack, and as a breaker/speed control/set-up wincon. I also think with wake being gone lati would be easier to deal with, and keeping some dragons around would be good for the meta.
(though the 3000 iq ddance ban could allow for dragon mons to be freed but policy sigh)
Another mon I think is good for the meta, set-up with it is scary but keeping ur ground alive usually means ur chilling, even then, there are other options on a team such as thundy-t. This mon feels like one of the best glue mons ngl, just helps you check a lot random things, pivot ur guys in, and gives priority to help its middling speed. I have really been enjoying boots with this mon, and with the team above taunt was able to put in an absurd amount of work, and feels even better than OU here because Lu's will consistently try to recover in front of bolt.
Borderline, promotes spike stack to a crazy degree and with one of its best checks still locked up for no reason it can be quite annoying facing it. I think astral ban was the right call and has reined it in, if anything GaG would be what gets it booted but I don't really see that as too pressing/there are ways that removers can bully it more meangingfully than OU.
I'm actually pretty chill with this mon? The only thing that makes it borderline is cheesing with ctorque, but I personally would rather look to the torque moves in general because the secondary effects of confusion and para (the only 'fine' one imo is poison) naturally add a lottery factor to games. I think its ability to be a splashable offensive check to physical mons is great and a bit necessary for the meta, especially for mons like weavile.
Actually insane this mon is still banned ngl, there not even being a suspect test after tera was done for was a bit confusing, and waiting until this next survey to address it yet again seems redundant. The running joke of asking when gambit unban for the past 5(?) months is nasty work. It feels especially egregious because it would offer a nice defensive profile to teams as a spin blocker and ghold/lati/weavile check. Seriously, at the least suspect this mon, it doesn't deserve to be jailed anymore with the moves that were making it overbearing be banned for months atp.
I gave my thoughts in a public space so bonk doesn't get yelled at as much in wokecord, hope this helps, next it's fissures turn!
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Figured that now that the survey has been made public that I'd give my opinions and thoughts on the Mons included as well as some other general metagame thoughts. As it stands now I'll have to agree this tier is currently in a rough spot, but despite that I feel like it's not as bad as some people make it out to be, and I'm hoping that after this survey we'll be able to weed out some of the more problematic & controversial mons, as I don't think there are any notable moves that should be banned at the moment (barring Water Shuriken but it's unlikely so I'll manage):
- It's not hard to see why this mon is good; Glacial Lance is one hell of a move, and combined with solid Speed and Attack it can shred through virtually all common physical walls, and with access to double priority in Ice Shard and Sucker Punch revenge killing it can be annoying too. Despite the fact that Toxapex is really the only consistent check to it I don't find it as problematic as others on this list, and with having to choose between Boots SD and Banded plus its frailty I think the counterplay is enough so I don't see this getting banned yet.
- This bastard has been terrorizing the tier ever since last OMPL, and honestly I don't see it lasting. With Choice Band sets being very difficult to switch around to DD sets being able to run basically whatever to fuck your checks over (Substitute to cuck Toxapex & other passive walls, Earthquake to beat Raging Bolt and Archaludon & Jet Punch to beat Scarfers if you've been unable to get 2 DDs up all combined with Punching Glove to ignore Helmets & Beak Blast/Bulwark) it's a super restricting mon to build around and it's able to snowball way too easy, so would really like to see this mon go.
- probably the most consistent breaker the tier currently has to offer, and its popularity on a lot of teams has showcased that. Steam Eruption is a pretty frustrating move to switch into on top of hitting extremely hard, and when you add in pivoting in Flip Turn to minimize prediction, Knock Off to be able to beat checks like Clodsire, AV Toxapex, and Slowking, and even the rare Water Shuriken as priority it simply becomes too good at its job. Not to mention the fact that Water/Dragon is a cracked typing, letting you resist all Water-type priority and being neutral to Thunderclap means that even offensive counterplay isn't as reliable. Overall, I think Wake is just a little too good at wallbreaking & pressuring the opponent, and banning it would probably ease up the builder a good bit.
- This mon is in a similar boat as Wake; a strong special Dragon-type who can pivot, but unlike Wake I find Latios a bit more tame despite its offensive stats being better. Psychic, while not terrible of course with Psystrike/Lumina Crash on choiced sets, are a lot more manageable compared to Steam Eruption in my opinion, and no Knock Off means it can't bully AV users as easily.
I will say though that while I said Wake is probably too good, the real issue is that both it and Latios coexist, meaning that the two of them are able to bully the most common defensive cores together due to both not sharing checks while also being very strong against the other dragon's checks (Wake bullies SpDef Ting-Lu and Tyranitar while Latios blows Toxapex and Clodsire up), making teambuilding against these two very frustrating, and in this case I simply think Wake is the more problematic of the two.
Latios does also bring some positive elements, being one of the few things that can reliably take on Volcanion, immunity to Spikes, and being more "fair" with both its STABs having immunities. Nonetheless, Latios is still very good but I find it hard to want this banned over Wake for now.
- I've actually not seen this mon as much (most likely due to being overshadowed by the two above) but Bolt is still a very good mon, albeit a lot more manageable without Tera. Specs sets suffer a lot from losing Dragon Energy as well as the abundance of Ground-types in the tier, but I find Calm Mind Booster sets or just Boots AoA to be very effective still, as you're still able to threaten a lot of faster mons with Thunderclap while utilizing its great bulk + typing (even being one of the more reliable Gyarados checks). Overall, I've yet to have any issues with this mon and to me it's just a certified goodmon and nothing else.
- If we just look at Gholdengo as a mon, it's perfectly fine in my opinion. Good bulk, good typing and strong damage output with Nasty Plot, with notable drawbacks such as not being that fast & again being vulnerable to the millions of Ground-types. However. Good as Gold is an ability, and while STABmons introduces a lot of Hazard removal options, that also includes a lot of hazard-setting options, and with all of Gholdengo's tools it's able to deny all form of removal except Tidy Up (which is a bad move and sees no use) or Court Change (very hard for a lot of teams to slot), which essentially warps the viability of hazard-stacking and Webs to a whole 'nother degree (note: Webs kinda suck though imo cause priority is literally everywhere and essentially all abusers fold to that). I would not hate to see this go, as its impact is undeniable, but it might also be the case of us simply not having adapted to it, who knows.
- This mon to me is the definition of "useless when I use it but godlike whenever the opponent uses it", although I think in recent times its become more scary in theory than practice. Sub Bulk Up sets can be pretty scary for most offense teams, but there are also plenty of tools to deal with this mon in general, like Sylveon (except when they randomly have fucking Heavy Slam like ???), most scarfers, Lando-T, Toxapexes who can break Sub and more. Overall, a very scary mon at times but a little too MU-reliant for me to want it banned.
- Yeaaah, this brotha should be freed already. After the whole fiasco with banning Wicked Torque after its initial ban, I don't see Kingambit being as problematic here, only really getting access to Knock Off and Sunsteel Strike as power boosts, which in a meta like STAB where contact punish is everywhere isn't the scariest in the world. It does also bring some decent defensive utility, being able to handle Gholdengo, Latios, and Weavile. This doesn't mean SD sets won't be scary at times, but I find that acceptable compared to the positives it brings.
Now with that rant out of the way, I'd like to highlight a certain mon I've been having pretty good success with recently that's also relatively unpopular despite its incredible power:
Swords Dance (Crawdaunt) @ Protective Pads
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Jet Punch
- Swords Dance
SD Crawdaunt in particular has felt super nice to use recently, hitting like a fucking truck with Adapt + Adamant, and while its lack of Speed is normally what makes it subpar here in STAB we can simply solve that by shoving priority moves down its throat! But like seriously, this is one of the most consistent cleaners and breakers I've used in a while, and there are few things that can actually stop it. some Calcs to demonstate:
Standard AV Toxapex
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 304-358 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive Lando-T (Havs to run Max Hp Max Def + have not taken any chip to survive, and Pads prevent Beak Blast from being an issue)
+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 444-524 (116.2 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 316-372 (82.7 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Walking Wake
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 342-404 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rotom-W (Has to drop bulk to not instantly die)
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-Wash: 312-368 (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gyarados (Has to be Sub or get predicts right)
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 384-452 (116 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Iron Valiant (Has to be Vaccum Wave / Mach Punch to beat)
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 296-350 (102.4 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This list of calcs probably doesn't mean that much, but the point I want to get to is that Crawdaunt at the moment is super strong, very reliable especially with any form of team suppory, but also hella underrated/underused, and I think more people should try this mon out :)
- It's not hard to see why this mon is good; Glacial Lance is one hell of a move, and combined with solid Speed and Attack it can shred through virtually all common physical walls, and with access to double priority in Ice Shard and Sucker Punch revenge killing it can be annoying too. Despite the fact that Toxapex is really the only consistent check to it I don't find it as problematic as others on this list, and with having to choose between Boots SD and Banded plus its frailty I think the counterplay is enough so I don't see this getting banned yet. - This bastard has been terrorizing the tier ever since last OMPL, and honestly I don't see it lasting. With Choice Band sets being very difficult to switch around to DD sets being able to run basically whatever to fuck your checks over (Substitute to cuck Toxapex & other passive walls, Earthquake to beat Raging Bolt and Archaludon & Jet Punch to beat Scarfers if you've been unable to get 2 DDs up all combined with Punching Glove to ignore Helmets & Beak Blast/Bulwark) it's a super restricting mon to build around and it's able to snowball way too easy, so would really like to see this mon go. - probably the most consistent breaker the tier currently has to offer, and its popularity on a lot of teams has showcased that. Steam Eruption is a pretty frustrating move to switch into on top of hitting extremely hard, and when you add in pivoting in Flip Turn to minimize prediction, Knock Off to be able to beat checks like Clodsire, AV Toxapex, and Slowking, and even the rare Water Shuriken as priority it simply becomes too good at its job. Not to mention the fact that Water/Dragon is a cracked typing, letting you resist all Water-type priority and being neutral to Thunderclap means that even offensive counterplay isn't as reliable. Overall, I think Wake is just a little too good at wallbreaking & pressuring the opponent, and banning it would probably ease up the builder a good bit. - This mon is in a similar boat as Wake; a strong special Dragon-type who can pivot, but unlike Wake I find Latios a bit more tame despite its offensive stats being better. Psychic, while not terrible of course with Psystrike/Lumina Crash on choiced sets, are a lot more manageable compared to Steam Eruption in my opinion, and no Knock Off means it can't bully AV users as easily.I will say though that while I said Wake is probably too good, the real issue is that both it and Latios coexist, meaning that the two of them are able to bully the most common defensive cores together due to both not sharing checks while also being very strong against the other dragon's checks (Wake bullies SpDef Ting-Lu and Tyranitar while Latios blows Toxapex and Clodsire up), making teambuilding against these two very frustrating, and in this case I simply think Wake is the more problematic of the two.
Latios does also bring some positive elements, being one of the few things that can reliably take on Volcanion, immunity to Spikes, and being more "fair" with both its STABs having immunities. Nonetheless, Latios is still very good but I find it hard to want this banned over Wake for now.
- I've actually not seen this mon as much (most likely due to being overshadowed by the two above) but Bolt is still a very good mon, albeit a lot more manageable without Tera. Specs sets suffer a lot from losing Dragon Energy as well as the abundance of Ground-types in the tier, but I find Calm Mind Booster sets or just Boots AoA to be very effective still, as you're still able to threaten a lot of faster mons with Thunderclap while utilizing its great bulk + typing (even being one of the more reliable Gyarados checks). Overall, I've yet to have any issues with this mon and to me it's just a certified goodmon and nothing else. - If we just look at Gholdengo as a mon, it's perfectly fine in my opinion. Good bulk, good typing and strong damage output with Nasty Plot, with notable drawbacks such as not being that fast & again being vulnerable to the millions of Ground-types. However. Good as Gold is an ability, and while STABmons introduces a lot of Hazard removal options, that also includes a lot of hazard-setting options, and with all of Gholdengo's tools it's able to deny all form of removal except Tidy Up (which is a bad move and sees no use) or Court Change (very hard for a lot of teams to slot), which essentially warps the viability of hazard-stacking and Webs to a whole 'nother degree (note: Webs kinda suck though imo cause priority is literally everywhere and essentially all abusers fold to that). I would not hate to see this go, as its impact is undeniable, but it might also be the case of us simply not having adapted to it, who knows. - This mon to me is the definition of "useless when I use it but godlike whenever the opponent uses it", although I think in recent times its become more scary in theory than practice. Sub Bulk Up sets can be pretty scary for most offense teams, but there are also plenty of tools to deal with this mon in general, like Sylveon (except when they randomly have fucking Heavy Slam like ???), most scarfers, Lando-T, Toxapexes who can break Sub and more. Overall, a very scary mon at times but a little too MU-reliant for me to want it banned. - Yeaaah, this brotha should be freed already. After the whole fiasco with banning Wicked Torque after its initial ban, I don't see Kingambit being as problematic here, only really getting access to Knock Off and Sunsteel Strike as power boosts, which in a meta like STAB where contact punish is everywhere isn't the scariest in the world. It does also bring some decent defensive utility, being able to handle Gholdengo, Latios, and Weavile. This doesn't mean SD sets won't be scary at times, but I find that acceptable compared to the positives it brings.Now with that rant out of the way, I'd like to highlight a certain mon I've been having pretty good success with recently that's also relatively unpopular despite its incredible power:
Swords Dance (Crawdaunt) @ Protective Pads
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Jet Punch
- Swords Dance
SD Crawdaunt in particular has felt super nice to use recently, hitting like a fucking truck with Adapt + Adamant, and while its lack of Speed is normally what makes it subpar here in STAB we can simply solve that by shoving priority moves down its throat! But like seriously, this is one of the most consistent cleaners and breakers I've used in a while, and there are few things that can actually stop it. some Calcs to demonstate:
Standard AV Toxapex+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 304-358 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive Lando-T (Havs to run Max Hp Max Def + have not taken any chip to survive, and Pads prevent Beak Blast from being an issue)+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 444-524 (116.2 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 316-372 (82.7 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Walking Wake+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 342-404 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rotom-W (Has to drop bulk to not instantly die)+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-Wash: 312-368 (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gyarados (Has to be Sub or get predicts right)+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 384-452 (116 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Iron Valiant (Has to be Vaccum Wave / Mach Punch to beat)+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 296-350 (102.4 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This list of calcs probably doesn't mean that much, but the point I want to get to is that Crawdaunt at the moment is super strong, very reliable especially with any form of team suppory, but also hella underrated/underused, and I think more people should try this mon out :)
:sob: I promise it's not that bad, any and all feedback is appreciated lol no matter where it's from
As I am incapable of not hating, my thoughts on the survey have been postponed until now because I want to talk about water priority (Jet Punch and Water Shuriken) There are many other things I want to hate on, but I am sticking with just these for now.
Over the past week, I have looked through all of the available replays from the last OMPL, STAB seasonal, Circuit, and Majors to see how often water priority has been used. I determined if it was used based off of whether or not water priority was revealed. There were three instances where water priority was not revealed but I counted it because it was my team, it was my team, and because the same team was brought twice in the same set. This number is the absolute MINIMUM for water priority usage as it is entirely possible that the teams that brought common water priority users (that did not reveal all of their moves) could very well have had water priority on them. I have taken this into account and will provide three different percentages (Conservative, Realistic, and Liberal). Full disclosure going into this, I am pro ban on both Jet Punch and Water Shuriken and I have been for over a year now.
Next to each replay, you will see from what tournament the replay is from and a color. Red means water priority was not revealed. Green means Water Priority was used. Green italics means water priority was used and it played an important part in the game (I tried to be as strict with this as I could).
Let's start old then work our way up to most recently.
26/58 OMPL = 44.8% Usage
33/79 Seasonal = 41.77% Usage
4/12 Major = 33.33% Usage
8/11 Circuit = 72.72% Usage
This all adds up to a grand total of 160 STAB battles. 71 of which had a water priority move revealed. Of these 160 Battles, I decided that only 18 of them did water priority play a massive part in the outcome of the game or 11.25%
Conservative = 71/160 = 44.375% usage
Realistic = 50-55% usage
Liberal = 60+% usage
Based off of this, is water priority broken? Probably not. Is water priority healthy? Also probably not.
If I said you have a 50% chance of fighting Sticky webs or a 50% chance of fighting rain, what would you think? Water priority aren't just moves at this point, they are a mini play style. It is not uncommon to face more than one water priority user on a team. You can only bring so many checks before you start impacting the viability of your team to handle any other type of team structure. And that is the problem, these aren't Water priority teams, these are regular teams that have sweepers that have a 60-75 base power water priority move that do not care how fast the opponent is (they really only care if its a Dragon) (we also have a dragon problem, but that's for later) Water priority is in a weird spot where it is both an issue itself, and an issue of the mon using it. Gyarados has DD and a powerful STAB in Dragon Ascent and enough coverage in EQ. Volcanion has torch song to both attack with fire stab and boost water shuriken's power. Volc also has decent enough coverage as well. Walking Wake doesn't always run Shuriken because its STABs are just so powerful and sometimes it wants to Knock or sub or whatever, but the fact that it sometimes runs shuriken tells a lot about the power of the move itself. Rotom-Wash has nasty plot to setup and great coverage both in attacks and defensive utility. You get the picture. But I think the worst part of water priority is that it does not matter how good or bad a mon is, if it has access to water priority, it is good. If it has the ability to boost its attack, it runs Water Priority because we all know it can just claim wins on the spot.
What do we do? I do think we have to ban Water Shuriken as there are just so many more good users of that move than Jet Punch. Jet punch we could just ban the mons themselves as there are less of them (realistically its just Gyarados, Urshifu-R, Crawdaunt, Samurott-H. The others are annoying but probably fine)
And now for the survey. I'm going to keep it brief since I really only cared about water priority.
- Glacial Lance is the only issue with this mon. Without it, it is just OU Weavile with like parting shot. Ban the move imo. Sadly, that was not an option so I voted ban.
- Get them out of here.
- Get them out of here.
- People who say a mon being versatile is good have not seen this thing before. Specs, Scarf, Take Heart setup are all great. Depending on the set, you just lose to it. Ban.
- This thing is fine actually. It has slightly stronger electric stab that does not really matter. It does have better Dragon STAB, but nothing that makes it too crazy. It really does just feel like its OU version.
- To quote the Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of hazard removal. ——"
We gotta ban this guy. The people have a God given right to remove hazards.
- I sure do love clicking sub, bulk up, and the 100% paralyze non-contact button. Ban it.
- Never should have been banned in the first place. 6.12 out of 10. Never forget what they took from us.
Over the past week, I have looked through all of the available replays from the last OMPL, STAB seasonal, Circuit, and Majors to see how often water priority has been used. I determined if it was used based off of whether or not water priority was revealed. There were three instances where water priority was not revealed but I counted it because it was my team, it was my team, and because the same team was brought twice in the same set. This number is the absolute MINIMUM for water priority usage as it is entirely possible that the teams that brought common water priority users (that did not reveal all of their moves) could very well have had water priority on them. I have taken this into account and will provide three different percentages (Conservative, Realistic, and Liberal). Full disclosure going into this, I am pro ban on both Jet Punch and Water Shuriken and I have been for over a year now.
Next to each replay, you will see from what tournament the replay is from and a color. Red means water priority was not revealed. Green means Water Priority was used. Green italics means water priority was used and it played an important part in the game (I tried to be as strict with this as I could).
Let's start old then work our way up to most recently.
26/58 OMPL = 44.8% Usage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770508 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770635 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770635 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770635 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2131198468 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770624 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770318 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771506 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771817 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771816 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772053 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772043 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771251 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772032 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-773373 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772799 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772925 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772698 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-773285 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772516 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-773409 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772708 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-774277 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-774403 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775397 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775314 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775231 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775225 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775191 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-774955 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775916 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776394 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776169 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775968 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776145 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776569 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776498 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776293 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776909 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777030 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776991 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777097 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777256 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777107 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777121 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777773 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778653 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778947 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778768 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778377 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778881 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778326 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778558 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779797 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779952 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783260 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779554 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781711 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770635 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770635 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770635 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2131198468 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770624 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-770318 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771506 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771817 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771816 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772053 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772043 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-771251 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772032 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-773373 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772799 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772925 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772698 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-773285 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772516 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-773409 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-772708 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-774277 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-774403 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775397 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775314 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775231 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775225 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775191 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-774955 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775916 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776394 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776169 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775968 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776145 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776569 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776498 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776293 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776909 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777030 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-776991 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777097 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777256 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777107 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777121 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777773 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778653 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778947 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778768 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778377 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778881 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778326 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778558 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779797 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779952 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783260 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779554 OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781711 OMPL
33/79 Seasonal = 41.77% Usage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-787550?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-787552?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-787556?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2180404751 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2180406743 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2175492348-6q750bce342w3s8kx1ejjc20gttuhv6pw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2175500367-6qjv8p3d9gdyahkofnl0gltbm8lsn4ipw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-785507?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-785510?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783435 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783437 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2171086174-t6rnvs401fkd0syukskrpgnibefj1oopw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2171091910-u8hb7sprv7o0u1c3l66g1y33wry76rmpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783878 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783882 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-782220 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-782221 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783186 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783194?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783200 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164362241-lisae4ze7x4tlf4gv4xx8aoero77sxppw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164367989-valszk12ybef6m8mw3s375tefpax4wvpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164947957-lvfctwyrkc4noohzssdmaxqq7vb6zefpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164957920-0l3btijo76d3ohmgs8rc3au33hp785kpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781705 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781746 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781749 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779188?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779190?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779191?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2158782256?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2158786741?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159218623-d16sx1b3dfgsz8h7mpyh41zq4jppdmmpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159224254-qy5huujtobwqmpa7fyr3emoh4ime9olpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159271816-s5nn52rvgxb6rrls0fn0749uluxkrskpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159275048 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779982 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779986 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779998 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-780006 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160893762 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160898209 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160937913 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160941681 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160944071 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2154639794?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2154644856-z5a3uot2gd2b3n7tixqp5pwu5fcq47dpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2154648354?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778329 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778330 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778332 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778527 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778531 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778695 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778696 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2148945516?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2148950390 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150511899-3croxbcb53ctn4vv3xsaumu850ox1cwpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150514243-l6cdvkxcs3yudx61kzatjdl1th8ocg1pw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150547191-w6801fdhjc86m3d5u3b2pzofpopx1bgpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150552446-y7udagfo9pqkdvr9d3poijltz6j1lpfpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150745721 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150749682 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151056068 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151058782 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151514464-oqw9jd0rtwbfprpht0wbc7yy5u1yerapw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151512656-6bs3pvq4ar8ahmbt1b3r7yh18eixdxupw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151745625 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151750368 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777442 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777442 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777438 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152688604-rm4scge2vbnhp1ntyxop5h9033arwzjpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152692795-cg9a9j3vulvyj7rlig0l6uzyf9716h6pw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152695668-9zb1sw9mlthhvj210pi6h9t6ph3ncacpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152708575-qv7fi8xzmqbadq0arr0mqj1jn7c4xgmpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152711143-qxvslfkv12nek663kb12m4rhsfz7vrfpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152715744-ml900lmm4aca233jtn142n87qn3e28kpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775863 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-787552?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-787556?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2180404751 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2180406743 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2175492348-6q750bce342w3s8kx1ejjc20gttuhv6pw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2175500367-6qjv8p3d9gdyahkofnl0gltbm8lsn4ipw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-785507?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-785510?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783435 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783437 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2171086174-t6rnvs401fkd0syukskrpgnibefj1oopw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2171091910-u8hb7sprv7o0u1c3l66g1y33wry76rmpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783878 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783882 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-782220 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-782221 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783186 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783194?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-783200 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164362241-lisae4ze7x4tlf4gv4xx8aoero77sxppw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164367989-valszk12ybef6m8mw3s375tefpax4wvpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164947957-lvfctwyrkc4noohzssdmaxqq7vb6zefpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2164957920-0l3btijo76d3ohmgs8rc3au33hp785kpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781705 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781746 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-781749 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779188?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779190?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779191?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2158782256?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2158786741?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159218623-d16sx1b3dfgsz8h7mpyh41zq4jppdmmpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159224254-qy5huujtobwqmpa7fyr3emoh4ime9olpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159271816-s5nn52rvgxb6rrls0fn0749uluxkrskpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2159275048 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779982 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779986 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-779998 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-780006 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160893762 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160898209 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160937913 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160941681 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2160944071 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2154639794?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2154644856-z5a3uot2gd2b3n7tixqp5pwu5fcq47dpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2154648354?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778329 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778330 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778332 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778527 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778531 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778695 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-778696 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2148945516?p2 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2148950390 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150511899-3croxbcb53ctn4vv3xsaumu850ox1cwpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150514243-l6cdvkxcs3yudx61kzatjdl1th8ocg1pw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150547191-w6801fdhjc86m3d5u3b2pzofpopx1bgpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150552446-y7udagfo9pqkdvr9d3poijltz6j1lpfpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150745721 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2150749682 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151056068 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151058782 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151514464-oqw9jd0rtwbfprpht0wbc7yy5u1yerapw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151512656-6bs3pvq4ar8ahmbt1b3r7yh18eixdxupw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151745625 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2151750368 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777442 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777442 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-777438 STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152688604-rm4scge2vbnhp1ntyxop5h9033arwzjpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152692795-cg9a9j3vulvyj7rlig0l6uzyf9716h6pw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152695668-9zb1sw9mlthhvj210pi6h9t6ph3ncacpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152708575-qv7fi8xzmqbadq0arr0mqj1jn7c4xgmpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152711143-qxvslfkv12nek663kb12m4rhsfz7vrfpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2152715744-ml900lmm4aca233jtn142n87qn3e28kpw STAB seasonal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-775863 STAB seasonal
4/12 Major = 33.33% Usage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-822326?p2 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2302523012-ledrobbkcuucr73vyjulucyijehgul3pw OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-821044?p2 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-821394 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-821401 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-819454?p2 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2300380668-9w0vt8ow382k6cani21m7crn70tqrnqpw?p2 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-820049 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-818030 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-818740 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2297166213-gah2gisgpd5k4qtuhhp3f03krnui2lxpw OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2297526202 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2302523012-ledrobbkcuucr73vyjulucyijehgul3pw OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-821044?p2 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-821394 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-821401 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-819454?p2 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2300380668-9w0vt8ow382k6cani21m7crn70tqrnqpw?p2 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-820049 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-818030 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-818740 OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2297166213-gah2gisgpd5k4qtuhhp3f03krnui2lxpw OM major
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-2297526202 OM major
8/11 Circuit = 72.72% Usage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-823462?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808504 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808714 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808718?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808771?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808912 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-809434 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-809645?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-809916?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-810883 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-811449 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808504 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808714 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808718?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808771?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-808912 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-809434 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-809645?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-809916?p2 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-810883 OM circuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9stabmons-811449 OM circuit
This all adds up to a grand total of 160 STAB battles. 71 of which had a water priority move revealed. Of these 160 Battles, I decided that only 18 of them did water priority play a massive part in the outcome of the game or 11.25%
Conservative = 71/160 = 44.375% usage
Realistic = 50-55% usage
Liberal = 60+% usage
Based off of this, is water priority broken? Probably not. Is water priority healthy? Also probably not.
If I said you have a 50% chance of fighting Sticky webs or a 50% chance of fighting rain, what would you think? Water priority aren't just moves at this point, they are a mini play style. It is not uncommon to face more than one water priority user on a team. You can only bring so many checks before you start impacting the viability of your team to handle any other type of team structure. And that is the problem, these aren't Water priority teams, these are regular teams that have sweepers that have a 60-75 base power water priority move that do not care how fast the opponent is (they really only care if its a Dragon) (we also have a dragon problem, but that's for later) Water priority is in a weird spot where it is both an issue itself, and an issue of the mon using it. Gyarados has DD and a powerful STAB in Dragon Ascent and enough coverage in EQ. Volcanion has torch song to both attack with fire stab and boost water shuriken's power. Volc also has decent enough coverage as well. Walking Wake doesn't always run Shuriken because its STABs are just so powerful and sometimes it wants to Knock or sub or whatever, but the fact that it sometimes runs shuriken tells a lot about the power of the move itself. Rotom-Wash has nasty plot to setup and great coverage both in attacks and defensive utility. You get the picture. But I think the worst part of water priority is that it does not matter how good or bad a mon is, if it has access to water priority, it is good. If it has the ability to boost its attack, it runs Water Priority because we all know it can just claim wins on the spot.
Swords Dance (Crawdaunt) @ Protective Pads
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Jet Punch
- Swords Dance
What do we do? I do think we have to ban Water Shuriken as there are just so many more good users of that move than Jet Punch. Jet punch we could just ban the mons themselves as there are less of them (realistically its just Gyarados, Urshifu-R, Crawdaunt, Samurott-H. The others are annoying but probably fine)
And now for the survey. I'm going to keep it brief since I really only cared about water priority.
- Glacial Lance is the only issue with this mon. Without it, it is just OU Weavile with like parting shot. Ban the move imo. Sadly, that was not an option so I voted ban. - Get them out of here. - Get them out of here. - People who say a mon being versatile is good have not seen this thing before. Specs, Scarf, Take Heart setup are all great. Depending on the set, you just lose to it. Ban. - This thing is fine actually. It has slightly stronger electric stab that does not really matter. It does have better Dragon STAB, but nothing that makes it too crazy. It really does just feel like its OU version. - To quote the Declaration of Independence"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of hazard removal. ——"
We gotta ban this guy. The people have a God given right to remove hazards.
- I sure do love clicking sub, bulk up, and the 100% paralyze non-contact button. Ban it. - Never should have been banned in the first place. 6.12 out of 10. Never forget what they took from us.
I've been usin' Kleavor Recently and I can say that's one wicked mon. Turns out, when you have Base 135 attack, and sharpness, Mighty Cleave hits bloody hard! it has very little switch ins, Breaks through Spiky shield and burning bulwark, thus dodging the chip/burn of these moves. I feel like it's underrated, especially in sand where it doesn't have to fear Water shuriken as much. It's also a bloody efficient Revenge killer, and I have found a lot of enjoyment in playing it.
STABmons Winter Survey Results
TLDR:
- Gyarados Quickbanned
- Walking Wake Suspect Coming Soon
- Kingambit Unbanned
- Rage Fist changed from full Ban to Restrict.
Thank you all so much for your participation in the recent survey. Without wasting any time, let's review the results.
6/10
Somewhat small improvement from last survey after taking into account the shift from 1-5, to 1-10.
5.5/10
Once again, a marginal improvement from last time, not much, but worth noting still.
2.5/5Community seems to lean towards being fine, but has a considerable amount of people torn on it, or believing it is broken. This is a Pokemon we will be paying attention to within the future.
3.2/5Gyarados | Neon | xdRudi.exe | Kinetic | Bonk | RoFnA |
| | Ban | DNB | Ban | Ban | DNB |
See ya nerd.
Gyarados is now banned from STABmons!
Due to overwhelming support against the Pokemon, as well as commonly being cited as incredibly oppressive among higher level players, Gyarados has been booted from the tier. Between its absurdly powerful STAB combo, Moxie, and ability to get up several Dragon Dance with incredible ease thanks to the switches it forces, Choice Band almost entirely invalidating offensive, and stall teams of most kinds, means it requires multiple dedicated answers to just to even have a chance against without it rolling over entire teams off a single switch in.
3.2/5
A similar rating to Gyarados, this split however is far more because of how divided the community is on Walking Wake rather than the massive lean Gyarados has.
Gyarados is now banned from STABmons!
Due to overwhelming support against the Pokemon, as well as commonly being cited as incredibly oppressive among higher level players, Gyarados has been booted from the tier. Between its absurdly powerful STAB combo, Moxie, and ability to get up several Dragon Dance with incredible ease thanks to the switches it forces, Choice Band almost entirely invalidating offensive, and stall teams of most kinds, means it requires multiple dedicated answers to just to even have a chance against without it rolling over entire teams off a single switch in.
3.2/5A similar rating to Gyarados, this split however is far more because of how divided the community is on Walking Wake rather than the massive lean Gyarados has.
Walking Wake | Neon | Bonk | xdRudi.exe | RoFnA | Kinetic |
| | Suspect | Suspect | Suspect | Suspect | Suspect |
As such, with a unanimous vote, Walking Wake is planned to be Suspect tested in the near future.
2.7/5
Very little of the community seems to agree with what to do with Latios. Which is understandable considering its blend of healthy traits, yet incredibly oppressive traits it has all in one. We will continue to monitor this Pokemon in the case of a shift towards one side or the other.
2.1/5
Most seem to agree Raging Bolt is a fine presence in the metagame, with a similar amount simply being split on it. This Pokemon may be evaluated later on, but it is not a very high priority.
2.8/5
Similar to Latios, this is another Pokemon no one can seem to come to an agreement on, as such, it will continue to be monitored, and re-evaluated at a later date due to its marginally higher skew than Latios.
2.4/5
Doesn't look like Zamazenta's going anywhere for a while. Many more people have scored it far lower this survey, and as such has been considered a lower priority for the time being.
1.6/5
2.7/5Very little of the community seems to agree with what to do with Latios. Which is understandable considering its blend of healthy traits, yet incredibly oppressive traits it has all in one. We will continue to monitor this Pokemon in the case of a shift towards one side or the other.
2.1/5Most seem to agree Raging Bolt is a fine presence in the metagame, with a similar amount simply being split on it. This Pokemon may be evaluated later on, but it is not a very high priority.
2.8/5Similar to Latios, this is another Pokemon no one can seem to come to an agreement on, as such, it will continue to be monitored, and re-evaluated at a later date due to its marginally higher skew than Latios.
2.4/5Doesn't look like Zamazenta's going anywhere for a while. Many more people have scored it far lower this survey, and as such has been considered a lower priority for the time being.
1.6/5Kingambit | Neon | Kinetic | Bonk | xdRudi.exe | RoFnA |
| | Unban | Unban | Unban | Unban | Unban |
No retirement for you, buddy.
Kingambit is now unbanned from STABmons!
With overwhelming support for its unban, and a unanimous vote for it to be so, Kingambit returns. Originally being banned for cheese it was capable of at the time with Wicked Torque is no longer something within its repertoire. One of the biggest reasons for its return beyond that is the citing among the playerbase that its presence will greatly help with two problem Pokemon at the moment in Latios, and Gholdengo, while not being overbearing itself without its capability to win games off a single lucky turn.
Speaking of long overdue changes.
Rage Fist has been sitting in full ban for a long time for, frankly, unfair reasons. Despite Annihilape itself not being broken with the move, and Primeape for sure not being so, it has remained banned for a long time. But now is about the time that this gets remedied, even if it is a minor change in the grand scheme.
Kingambit is now unbanned from STABmons!
With overwhelming support for its unban, and a unanimous vote for it to be so, Kingambit returns. Originally being banned for cheese it was capable of at the time with Wicked Torque is no longer something within its repertoire. One of the biggest reasons for its return beyond that is the citing among the playerbase that its presence will greatly help with two problem Pokemon at the moment in Latios, and Gholdengo, while not being overbearing itself without its capability to win games off a single lucky turn.
Speaking of long overdue changes.
Rage Fist has been sitting in full ban for a long time for, frankly, unfair reasons. Despite Annihilape itself not being broken with the move, and Primeape for sure not being so, it has remained banned for a long time. But now is about the time that this gets remedied, even if it is a minor change in the grand scheme.
. | Neon | xdRudi.exe | RoFnA | Kinetic | Bonk |
Rage Fist | Unban | Unban | Unban | Unban | Unban |
Following a unanimous unban call, (Not unrestrict call, please note the difference.), Rage Fist is now unbanned in STABmons!
This essentially just means Annihilape is able to use Rage Fist again, which it should have been able to for a while now, as the move itself was originally banned for basically every offender except for Annihilape. Who for a long time has arguably one of the move's worse users in STAB.
That's all from us for now! Thank you so much for your feedback, and we hope this action helps to improve the tier. Be on the lookout for the incoming Walking Wake suspect test coming soon!
Tagging dhelmise for implementation.
This essentially just means Annihilape is able to use Rage Fist again, which it should have been able to for a while now, as the move itself was originally banned for basically every offender except for Annihilape. Who for a long time has arguably one of the move's worse users in STAB.
That's all from us for now! Thank you so much for your feedback, and we hope this action helps to improve the tier. Be on the lookout for the incoming Walking Wake suspect test coming soon!
Tagging dhelmise for implementation.
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