Other Stall

[Ajwf]

Conk is such an easy mon for stall to counter though... Due to the use of flying/poison/Aegi/fairies, Conk generally ends up being countered 2 or 3 times by time you're done building. I could say the same about Chansey... Vs Conk, chansey isn't winning and can hurt if you toxic it. That's not deterring chansey from being used... Conk isn't pursuit trapping or anything.

Chansey isn't irreplaceable. Saying that would be suggesting it is impossible to make a good stall team without Chansey, which is absolutely false. And it's no harder to lure in chansey (ie scarf wash who showed willo?) and disable (Ie tricking that scarf) than it is any other. In fact, I'd say it is far easier to disable chansey (goth exists, Sylveon 3hkos w/Hyper Voice [strong chance to 2hko after rocks] making it hard for goth to switch in unless via check).

It isn't running P2 over Chansey, they have different roles with the same typing. You run a different cleric over chansey, p2 has barely anything in common. P2 isn't really a deadweight with statuses (though I run Magic Coat to prevent unwanted ones). Natural Cure Chansey is an easy way to get rid of a status, as is Poison Heal Gliscor to benefit from one. It depends if you can pick up a useful ability to clear the status.

 

[EnerG218]

all hail the god of wisdom and stall teams Ajwf, with TFL's unbeatable team and the entire stall strategy in his palm to shape in whatever way shape or form he wants.

 

[jbtc10]

Alright, so I took some flak for what I believe to be the top 10 mons to use on a stall team right now. Most of it I shrug off because honestly I respect five or six people to know more than I do on the subject and none of them have said anything about it (p2, like Electross and Sassy chomp, are kinda my own projects where people like Yutt constantly use alomomola, Aggron, manatine and the likes. We'll give each other advice on them but generally let each other hold their own opinions on their viability).

Now, the list, for reference, was: MVenu 1, Chansey 2, Sylveon 3, Skarmory 4, P2 5, Heatran 6, Chesnuaght 7, Quag 8 (too many bulk flaws), CharX 9, Clef 10. I'll go through all of them. In all honesty, I might even have thrown Aggron-mega up as well. I'm going to explain it and see if anyone wants to critique. To be honest, the only people who venture through this thread are the ones who play stall so I don't have to worry about irrelevant opinions as much.

1. Mega Venusaur. jbtc10 wanted to state that ZardX and Venu are different, but venu isn't as important as we think... Well. The first is easily correct, second is not. While venu holds a different niche than Amoongus, I never compared them and to be honest, Amoongus is kinda hit/miss on it's own role (can't stop BD azumarill).

But, Venu is as important as we say. The reasoning? Well, it walls so much. While that seems like a copout, it is hard to nail down what exactly Venu's purpose is, which is why I referred to it as a cornerstone. It is something that you can use and build teams around with ease. Apparently a formula has been found, but once venu is in, the question isn't "What do I wall next", it's literally "What did venu miss?". Venu misses Flying types, Psychic types, Landorus, Kyurem and a few others. Very, very high level look obviously. But let's face it, I wouldn't be making a terrible stretch to leave it at that. The flying/psyshic/fire/ice kinda issue are all solved with heatran, which is why he was ever USED on stall. Heatran is not important, please understand. We'll get to that, but heatran is simply there to support venu.

2. Chansey. While again jbtc wants it as #1 (which, you could make an argument for), think of it like this: Venusaur is a high wall for 75-90% of the meta. Chansey is nearly an insurmountable wall for 50%. There's a difference in what you need. Obviously, chansey's team support is invaluable, but it is not the only one in the world that can give that. Alomomla drops wish bombs, Sylveon doesn't do bad, and oddities like Heal bell meloetta/clefable/whatever you find it on do exist. Chansey is HARD to replace. Venusaur is IMPOSSIBLE. There simply is nothing that does what he does, as his typing (grass/poison) is deceptive as hell. He doesn't have grass standard weaknesses. In fact, a type to think of venu is Fighting when viewing his only weaknesses and steel when viewing resists, taking none of those weaknesses and none of fight's resists into account.

3. Sylveon. Oh let the rage begin. First off, there is no way anyone who has EVER used stall could confess Clefable to be a better cleric. Simply impossible. Secondly, Sylveon provides, outside of Mega Gardevoir who is questionable for stall, the third most fire power provided by any stall mon (aegi is above, heatran is barely above iirc). That forces switches. Which means turns, leftover recovery and wish passing. But more importantly, it has stats that you NOTICE. Clefable can't attest to that, but clutches to unaware. Sorry, really good stall players can get by without unaware in MOST situations. The "Most" part is where you do use Clef. Besides chansey, it is the only cleric that should ever be built around.

I've written that post on it, just going to link it. Same thread obv.

4. Skarmory. Skarm used to be like chansey in the fact that it was a nigh insurmountable wall for 50% of the meta... and then power creep. Well, Skarm has three major roles this gen that are nigh irreplaceable. 1. Walling Pinsir-mega. This is now slightly less important, but it takes +3 mega pinsir so room for fuckup is there. Counter/taunt is nice. 2. Defog OR hazard setting (the first major distinction from Zapdos). It gives you maneuverability to find a hazard setter/clearer and allow skarm to take the other role. Most commonly, skarm defogs as it is the single best defogger in OU. 3. Azumarill check. While it doesn't take BD azum, it can sure wall the monster CB Azum, and quag can take the BD anyways so w/e. These roles are important, but number 2 is the reason it has this spot as the other two are solvable otherwise.

5. Porygon2. People love to hate this one, but let's face it, this guy is so good that if you don't use chansey, p2 should be considered on the team. It gives teams endgames without having to go semi-stall. It scouts, it sweeps, it walls... It is really fucking unique thanks to the bland typing and good bulk. Allows for great maneuverability on what you need done and gives a "wild card" as I discussed a while ago. A way out of bad situations, more than any other pokemon. Access to bolt beam, recovery and utility moves (I prefer magic coat over toxic right now for taunt/rock leads). This one is a great addition to any team lacking chansey/fighting weakness. One of two mons that can beat the devastating mixed mega chomp. Beats prankster thundurus, turns Greninja into a liability, and gives you nigh instant win vs teams with Gliscor. Underrated/overrated? Who gives a fuck, it's really good.

6. Heatran. I'm doing everyone a favor by having it here. It's EQ weak, fight weak, doesn't solve bisharp and loses a ton of momentum vs landorus versions. Really sucks vs Conkeldurr but Conk can't break Venu in a million years so who cares? Opens VenuTran cores up to be cracked easy by Lando-i, too. But, it takes Talonflame, most psychics and some ice/fire mons (whoops, you missed out on mamoswine, ZardYX and anything smart enough to have EQ, didn't you...)... So not most ice/fire types, eh? But what it does is set rocks, roar setup sweepers lacking EQ/fight moves and is a general pain for talonflame, the anti-venu. Any more, I'd prefer to fade this spot out for TFL's Krookodile, an Arcanine or maybe even Volcanion but for now he's it... And if you use ZardX, you lose venu-mega so... Well, it is decent but only due to Venusaur's success and heatran's synergy. On it's own, it'd be a decent stall mon but nothing more.

7. Chesnaught is one of my favorites in Gen6. Someone on Showdown (was it @IAmGingy?) told me to look into it when I started the triremes. I loved it and since have believed it is the second best mon xy gave stall this gen (sylveon wrecks lol). Edgequake resist, Venusaur mega deterrent (Venu needs Hp fire to get by I think), Gyarados/TTar-mega counter... Makes this guy so worth it. Great physical defense, special protect move, aegi counter, bisharp counter... Seeds on switch and deters opponent chansey/quagsire... This guy is just too good to never look at. Would be my fifth in a world where Venu-mega didn't exist (Venu gone, heatran gone). Could easily be 6th right now.

8. Quagsire is almost a necessary evil. ZardX check/counter Idk... Stops mega Scizor, stops mega TTar... Well, you get the idea. Lots of boosters fall to him, but Bisharp (his first counter) kinda likes Grass Knot. Can't stop special boosters at all and can occasionally get railed by surprise HP grass (did you know ZardX has like 130 SpA? HP Grass spam hits at the worst possible time and it is a thing now because Quag can be so hard to get around. So his effectiveness has gone down dramatically. Still a nice check to certain BP chains but by no means a stop.

9. Charizard-X. Yeah, it's insane. Burn Support, Roost, Electric weak to resist, Immune to EQ base form (which, you trade immune to weak for 4x rock to 2x rock weak) and one of like 2 pokemon (reshiram other?) immune to burns that resists scald... But... It doesn't counter ENOUGH to ever be a cornerstone like Venu. In a vacuum, it is top 3 or 4. However, this is not the case. It does have a fantastic counter to ZardY, but Chansey exists and ZardX can't take Lando-i. There are limits here, and they are real. The Rock weakness means even though it resists volt turn, it still takes massive amounts of damage to it. On teams that are centered to keep rocks away, you might consider him. However otherwise... VenuMega, AggronMega, or GyaradosMega all have great roles without that rock weakness.

10. Clefable is, quite frankly, the worst cleric I've ever seen. I've used it probably 200 matches in cleric role and then just decided that team would be balance and changed Clefable into a CM sweeper. In the CM unaware role, it is passable. However, the bulk again lets it down... It simply cannot beat pokemon like Venusaur, Scizor, Excadrill and many other common issues at any boost. Dragonite WP gives it a huge niche and time to do work (as MG is a possible ability so they kinda go for a DD anyways... Idk why you'd ever assume MG first but w/e).

As a cleric, 1/10. (10 being like Venusaur's importance to stall... the highest available but not objectively perfect). Absolute garbage, can barely get wishes to teammates. As a CM sweeper (aka a semi-stall role), I'd give it a 6.5 or 7. Can't really overlook it... but it is easily redundant with another fairy or even chansey in some cases (for some reason, so much pink just doesn't work).

The reason I say Chansey should be at least ahead of Mega Venusaur is because of how it walls almost the entire category of special attackers just using one team slot (including things like Charizard-Y who have very few other viable counters in the first place so it's one of the first things you're forced to consider for your stall team from the word go) and then gets to use free turns to support the rest of the team. So much so, that it's entirely possible (and I do it quite frequently) to build successful Stall teams where Chansey is the only special wall on the whole team (with pokemon like Keldeo being countered via typings from the likes of Slowbro and Amoongus), with the rest of the team being able to focus on the physical side which naturally requires more attention (one reason being that there's no physical equivalent of Chansey). Pokemon that lack reliable recovery would become almost unusable on stall if it weren't for Chansey, because it's the only wish passer who's wishes are significant enough to be able to mitigate that lack of recovery, and basically bring them back up to full health each time even after taking a hit when switching in, which even the next closest things like Alomomola can't manage and said pokemon also don't have the other valuable walling and cleric utilities that Chansey does. Mega Blastoise and a bunch of other things that can have some great niches for stall teams just wouldn't be worth using if it weren't for the Wishes Chansey is able to pass to them. As such, Chansey's influence on the game itself is much more pronounced than Mega Venusaur's.

As I mentioned earlier in the viability thread about Mega Venusaur itself, it really is facing stiff competition from Amoongus at the moment, who has some excellent traits over it which actually warrants use over it even ignoring the fact that Megasaur takes up a mega slot. Regenerator is really good. Spore is incredibly good. Yes, Megasaur has Sleep Powder, but anyone who's used it knows that it often misses at really annoying moments and ends up giving away free turns instead of generating them, as opposed to Spore which always generates the free turns and gives you basically a pseudo +1 in team advantage, and that's what every team wants; consistency and reliability. It's a bad feeling having to toss up whether you want to risk going for the Sleep Powder knowing it could do nothing, especially when you're under the pump, which in any decent game you will be. Also, I don't quite get how Amoongus doesn't counter BD Azumaril; it does, unless it carries Knock Off on that same set while Amoongus still has its item, which is rare from what I've seen. Stall generally has a lot of checks to BD Azumaril too, so it's not usually that much of a problem I've found. Ditto is rising in popularity too.

Heatran is the definition of average to mediocre and while it should deserve a mention somewhere, I think you're actually being too kind to it on your list. It's not bad, but it's not great either. I still use it on some teams (including my most recent one ironically, been experimenting with a physically defensive one) but the 4x Ground weakness is what really hampers it, because things it should be able to easily get free turns on (Latios, Venu etc) can straight up KO it by running EQ which means you always have to tread carefully and can never guarantee your safety until you've fully scouted their sets. This is especially a nuisance if you're using Heatran as your SR setter (which he usually is) since it really restricts when and how often you can safely set them up. Once again, thank god for Chansey or it would be barely usable at all imo, since it really needs outside help to manage its HP in most games.

 

[Ajwf]

Actually, ZardY can be countered by some dragons, in it's best set (the FocusBlast/Roost/FireBlast/SolarBeam). I know Dnite works, don't have a good spread for it. I use Garchomp and Latias, and the lati spread is:

Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 38 HP / 252 SAtk / 218 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Defog
- Psychic

Gar is just full spdef. Lati should outspeed jolly m-pinsir with that spread. CharX obviously works... Dragons work well vs ZardY, that's all I've got on it. If you feel up to the task, try some out.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 321-378 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

4 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO
or
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a P.defensive spread, the Spdef spread is OHKOd. Yes, short of what the rocks would take to kill coming in, but that is way, way too close to comfort for me. If you sludge bomb, you lose and a +6 Azumarill is sitting around :/ Clear smog works but it goes to +0 and will KO next turn bar low roll of 18%.

 

[EnerG218]

Actually, ZardY can be countered by some dragons, in it's best set (the FocusBlast/Roost/FireBlast/SolarBeam). I know Dnite works, don't have a good spread for it. I use Garchomp and Latias, and the lati spread is:

Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 38 HP / 252 SAtk / 218 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Defog
- Psychic

Gar is just full spdef. Lati should outspeed jolly m-pinsir with that spread. CharX obviously works... Dragons work well vs ZardY, that's all I've got on it. If you feel up to the task, try some out.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 321-378 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

4 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO
or
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a P.defensive spread, the Spdef spread is OHKOd. Yes, short of what the rocks would take to kill coming in, but that is way, way too close to comfort for me. If you sludge bomb, you lose and a +6 Azumarill is sitting around :/ Clear smog works but it goes to +0 and will KO next turn bar low roll of 18%.

At least consider this: 1. The Charizard could be an X, so switching Latias or Garchomp in on it is basically a free DDance or DClaw. 2. If it is already revealed to be mega Y, running garchomp with full spdef is just fucking sad and completely situational and Latias is very easily Pursuit trapped since any good stall team runs a pursuiter. Again, none of this matters since TFL still has the ultimate unbeatable team.

 

[Ajwf]

The Charizard X counter I use generally is a decent Y check, which is what I switch into initially. But that's part of the deadly Zard mega forms.

Full Spdef Chomp was a simple tool I used because it worked on that team. It wasn't something that I considered should be an award winning set, but something that I used because it was neccessary for my team. Lati, on the other hand, is a very good poke even with that pursuit weakness and that set really isn't too much different from the standard lati set, just a bit of bulk because it doesn't need to speed tie 110s.

 

[jbtc10]

Actually, ZardY can be countered by some dragons, in it's best set (the FocusBlast/Roost/FireBlast/SolarBeam). I know Dnite works, don't have a good spread for it. I use Garchomp and Latias, and the lati spread is:

Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 38 HP / 252 SAtk / 218 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Defog
- Psychic

Gar is just full spdef. Lati should outspeed jolly m-pinsir with that spread. CharX obviously works... Dragons work well vs ZardY, that's all I've got on it. If you feel up to the task, try some out.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 321-378 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

4 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO
or
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a P.defensive spread, the Spdef spread is OHKOd. Yes, short of what the rocks would take to kill coming in, but that is way, way too close to comfort for me. If you sludge bomb, you lose and a +6 Azumarill is sitting around :/ Clear smog works but it goes to +0 and will KO next turn bar low roll of 18%.

I know D-Nite and Lati work, but they don't counter a bunch of other things either (like Greninja as a crude example) which means you have to dilute your team to counter individual things and there's always a chance you'll have missed some random thing. Chansey just takes special attackers in general and says: "no".

Regarding Amoongus, you Clear Smog after tanking the +6 Play Rough, then switch out and Regen back up to at least 50%. Azu is now neutralized for the rest of the match and you can keep switching in and out again to get back up to full health while Azu can do nothing but give you a dirty look since none of its moves can deliver close to enough damage to outpace Regen. Not to mention after switching out the first time you can just come back in and start spamming Giga Drain to finish it off. Alternatively, you can just Spore it first, then Clear Smog.

 

[Clair]

Again, none of this matters since TFL still has the ultimate unbeatable team.

My sarcasm monitor is apparently broken, can someone confirm this is a joke?

 

[kirant]

3. Sylveon.
[...]
5. Porygon2.
[...]
9. Charizard-X.

I must say thanks for listing these as they really fit some of the top stall pokemon that, outside of Sylveon, don't tend to be prepared for. Physically defensive Charizard-X is a very interesting curve ball that I love throwing.

I admit I might be more of the semi-stall mentality (I personally struggle with Porygon2's offence a little and the relevant attack stat on my teams tends towards the 100+ range even if I don't invest any EVs in it...well, that and I prefer a team which doesn't require hoping Knock Off doesn't hit an unfortunate Pokemon) but I've always picked Sylveon as my cleric over Chansey. Does it have drawbacks? Yeah of course it does as Sylveon can get put to sleep itself and has no option but to wait it out or carry a second Heal Bell user. But Hyper Voice gives you some amazing Sub piercing coverage and tears apart a good number of dragons. Does Chansey wall special hits better? Yup. But it is ultimately very passive in its job too.

Also will say that although Ferrothorn isn't on the list I personally love using it because of the psychological war you can wage with it. It has great durability despite two really common weaknesses and sets up Rocks for you making it a decent candidate for Stall teams (and has that great ability which lets you wear down unsuspecting physical sweepers). But the greatest asset I think is the possibility of instant momentum: Ferrothorn is a well recognized starter and if you have it on your team almost everybody will identify it as your standard lead. With this edge in mind you likely identify their Ferrothorn counter and act accordingly since there's a great chance they'll pick their Ferrothorn counter to start. Add that to some mid-game fun with a high damage Power Whip and you've got some great options for a war. The common Magic Bounce user, Espeon, considers it a deep threat too because Power Whip is a 2HKO on it and you should be able to predict its switch ins. If you're able to recognize your opponent early to mid-game, it provides a tonne of tools to work with with the nice added bonus of being a really sturdy Leech Seed user.

I personally go with Power Whip/Leech Seed/Protect/Stealth Rocks but you can tool it many ways. All to similar effect, mind you, but they can all target different Pokemon.

 

[Jukain]

I think you're referring to Finger's team, right? It is an excellent team, I agree. However, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that's the new stall core. If I were to judge by popularity of any core, I can say it'd be a distant second but nothing more. The standard VenuTran core retains so much popularity that it is hard to top.

I'm unsure how Amoongus handles Keldeo better (are you referring to it being able to regenerate?) or Aegi (I'm assuming this is the "Spdef+FoulPLay" thing) but Venusaur shouldn't have issues with either if it didn't want to (obviously EQ exists). I understand that it's used to replace mega venusaur but the issue always will remain that it only can cover so much of what venu does. I'm assuming if it's an aegi counter, it would be running SpDef... Well, it just isn't ever going to be the monster than Venusaur-m is. Certainly solid, but to say it outperforms Venu against Keldeo seems a bit odd.

For the P2 part. Stall's basis is countering the meta, this is a common. However, the meta recently decided to focus on popularizing a lot of weapons to destroy stall teams (lando, Kyub [which I think has gained some usage recently], Goth, SubWisp Gengar all come to mind). Hell, half the questions in OU are probably "How do I break stall" (I highlighted stall to test this). Reading, people drop pokemon, as you'd expect, to beat Venu, Chansey, Quag, Heatran and Skarm. Stupid stuff like GK Bisharp is mentioned. So saying the top 5 stall mons are the most used is obviously incorrect by policy.

I understand that if chansey is used, P2 shouldn't be. That's the same with Venu and Chesnaught, ZardX and Heatran, Skarm and Zapdos. However, P2 is, at the very, very least, an 'average' wall. But then you start counting outside roles and the uniqueness of those roles. Unarguably, it performs a combination of roles that no other mon can (and then some unique to itself as well)... How you value those roles may be different, but for full stall, it is an irreplaceable piece on any team it finds itself on. Irreplaceable, for better or worse to that team. I'm not saying it's priceless on any team. But P2 is a subject to be as good as you are creative. No offense to anyone involved, but if I wanted to list the easiest five to use, I'd just list the standard core... maybe Aegislash in their somewhere. I'm not going to say it's hard to use p2, it isn't. However, it takes a bit of knowledge to understand what you want it to do. Regardless of your agreement with some of my calcs (sorry, Lando-i needs residual to kill it, P2 checks it with sheer force ice beam... And latios HP fighting is a joke Afaik), Pory2 has a great deal of mons it can take, even if only pivoting through to a mon. Adjusting heatran to be forced to use toxic (if applicable) over willowisp or fire blast gives you an easy switch into an EQ user, does it not?

Now, understand a few things here: Going into semi-stall, p2 doesn't have as much to offer. And the meta has shifted that way (albeit slightly). The reason is, they don't need the extra win condition. They have what they need to wall and they can sweep the rest. P2 is a more "general" wall, given this the same way Chansey was given it, the typing. Full Stall in general is a bit more of a "general wall" group (aka Venusaur, what I've been stressing this entire time). What you wall with P2 is your choice for the most part, just avoid knock off and fight moves. Semi-stall aims to "eliminate threats hindering a sweep" and has a very definite list for what needs to be taken care of.

tl;dr last three paragraphs: Pory2's own uniqueness is worth noticing, other mons a bit too meta not to get countered easily. P2 obviously doesn't work for everyone (or semi-stall, as adding an offensive wincon changes more than you'd imagine) but it is unique and has a great deal of upside.

And no, what I show on Smogon isn't all I have, Jukain (Not that I'm greedy, it's just I haven't figured out how to make the teams good enough). This isn't a bias off of one team, I have multiple teams around to test this. Obviously they're me building the P2 models but outside a few builders, it's hard to find any inspiration to begin with (although TFL did recently help me with a semi-stall team... His is better though, so eventually he'll Rmt it [I think]). I'm always willing to see new/interesting stall teams. Hell, I try to hang around and chat with the only group of builders I see with any consistency and if I see a neat team on the ladder (which I don't because I don't ladder so w/e) I do talk to the person to see the logic behind it.

I'm not talking about fingers team, I'm talking about competent tourney-level stalls I've seen people use...most of them are Char X. Amoon beats Keldeo better cause Regen so it gives a less of a shit about burns and being worn down in general so it has to worry less about stuff like getting worn into 2hko range of HP Flying.

VenuTran is more of a balanced core nowadays and less of a stall core, from my experience.

 

[TIZNE]

First post, long time lurker!!

I like the idea of making a list of top stall pokemon. But it would be more helpful if the list concerns about specific roles. Otherwise, the list will end up being a list of walls, for we are already dealing with bulky pokes. But we need that each of our walls do something else...

For example: Chansey and P2 definitely not fulfill the same role. Yeah, sure Chansey is a better cleric, but P2 is not even aiming for that, so there's no ground for comparison. Therefore, it doesn't matter to compare their bulkiness. (however, they are probably not to be played together in the same team because they share typing)

I think that the popularity of the Skarm/Chansey core is that they offer a lot of teambuilding options while walling the nastiest threats. They together can fulfill a lot of roles (Defog, Hazard Setter, Heal Bell, PHazer, Wish Passer, Status inducer, Taunt, Status absorber...), but obviously not all at the same time. So the team is naturally built trying to find teammates that can alleviate the moveslot syndrome, or I'd rather say in this case, the 'multiple role syndrome'.

So, in the end, it comes down to roles again.

I have a lot to learn from you guys, so i'll be around reading more than commenting.

 

[Rotosect]

P2 not fullfilling Chansey's role is exactly its problem: due to type redundancy, as well as Knock Off weakness, a stall team can't afford running both so you're running either Chansey or P2.
Giving up the best mixed wall, status absorber and Cleric available in OU for an all-purpose mixed wall with many nice perks but no definitive qualities is ultimately going to weaken the entire team.

Porygon 2 is to Chansey what Salamence is to Dragonite. Yes, this is an accurate comparison, considering that P2 and Salamence are C rank in the viability thread, while Chansey is A- and Dragonite is A rank (and being debated for A- lately).

 

[Sun King]

P2 not fullfilling Chansey's role is exactly its problem: due to type redundancy, as well as Knock Off weakness, a stall team can't afford running both so you're running either Chansey or P2.
Giving up the best mixed wall, status absorber and Cleric available in OU for an all-purpose mixed wall with many nice perks but no definitive qualities is ultimately going to weaken the entire team.

Porygon 2 is to Chansey what Salamence is to Dragonite. Yes, this is an accurate comparison, considering that P2 and Salamence are C rank in the viability thread, while Chansey is A- and Dragonite is A rank (and being debated for A- lately).

Rotosect, have you even tried P2 out? I get the feeling you're just throwing out a bunch of unjustified conjecture. I can certainly vouch for P2, and he is definitely usable on stall. P2 is cool in that he forces switches through offensive presence--something most stall-mons would kill for (cough cough Chansey).

 

[Baharoth]

Well there is something that speaks against P2 on stall. Its the simple question "Why shouldnt I use Chansey on my team". Sure, stall can work fine without it but its just so incedibly good that there is little to no reason not to use it.

 

[totoTavros]

Baharoth, the only way that one can continue to innovate and finding new strategies that work, it's what keeps the meta interesting and evolving. For instance, Aj's team, The Terrible Triremes, is to avoid using Mega-Venusaur while creating a good stall team.

 

[TFL]

Creating subpar teams and/or strategies is not what I would call innovation, one should be searching for something better than what has already been done.

Edit: Creativity is useless if it doesn't equate to something better.

 

[totoTavros]

Yes, you experiment so you find what is better by limiting yourself, and forcing yourself to be creative.

 

[Ajwf]

Baharoth, the only way that one can continue to innovate and finding new strategies that work, it's what keeps the meta interesting and evolving. For instance, Aj's team, The Terrible Triremes, is to avoid using Mega-Venusaur while creating a good stall team.

I mean, I'm not necessarily being creative when I build teams... Generally it ends with me building a core I've been thinking of and then searching for pokemon with specific typing and roles to fill in. The reason I used chomp was because I wanted a defogger or a rock setter (skarm covered the second) that could take charziardY consistently. I recently started experimenting with swampert, because I needed a non-fire weak pokemon to set rocks and take a hit from landorus. There were other options, Swampert just had an alluring movepool.

 

[totoTavros]

Even still, you attempt to try to challenge yourself, such as not using M-Venu, do you not?

 

[TIZNE]

Yes, I'm also thinking about Aj's Triremes. Using a Skarm/Sylveon core, IMHO, is not necessarily subpar to Skarm/Chansey. Sylveon is a Full Cleric that is able of applying good offensive pressure. So they are not automatically intercheangle, and each one has it's own pros and cons that should be adressed by their teammates.

I agree that it's easier to build a team around Chansey. But not that it would simply be better because of that.

 

[Stallion]

i think youve got that a bit backwards there, ive never seen an effective x/y stall team that doesnt carry chansey while amoongus can fill the same role as mega-venu if you really dont want to use it, and there are still other bulky grass types that you can use that have slightly different roles. stall is just completely screwed without chansey and theres really no substitute for it at all



lol



why would i ever not use chansey though, and why would i ever use porygon2 of all things over chansey. Chansey takes physical hits only slightly worse, takes special hits much better, can use healbell, rocks, and has natural cure as a more consistent ability.



i also think heatran is over-rated on stall but why would u care about other peoples opinions anyways when you already have porygon2 and sylveon in top 5 best stall mons. show us tha truth w/krook and arcanine



it isnt that bad but really lol



you think mega-aggron and mega-gyara are more viable than mega-scizor and mega-char y on stall? mega-aggron is very mediocre in practice and i cant even picture mega-gyara on stall at all



Don't use it as a cleric then, and i think unaware clef is great on stall with unaware moonblast/twave/moonlight/support move and can switch into anything from charx except flare blitz, can twave it, and stall it as it recoils to death. It's more useful then you are making it out to be as it can do this to a number of threats like tglow manaphy and ddance dnite, and can use that last slot to set up rocks, carry calm mind (which has a much better chance against mega-venu when it can get parahaxed) or carry aromatherapy.



it covers chanseys fighting weakness lol they dont have bad synergy just because they r both pink

there are some dubious statements in this list, though perhaps u can show some matches where things like p2 and sylveon work effectively on stall against good players :)

My phone won't let me quote the relevant part, but fyi I ran Mega Gyara on stall and got above 1900. Mold Breaker Roar to fuck with BP is the main reason I used it, but the ability to change types during the match completely changes its counters! Don't knock it till you try it

 

[chive]

Using a Skarm/Sylveon core, IMHO, is not necessarily subpar to Skarm/Chansey.

I find that to be especially true when you have stuff like Heatran or Ferrothorn on your team. I had a lot of my earlier stall builds struggle with Fighting Weakness, so that's definitely something to consider. Sylveon is also harder to set up on (generally speaking), so if you're struggling with setup sweepers, it might also patch that up a little. Just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[deafgeek]

I'm cross posting from Simple Questions/Answers thread because I wanted input from more experienced stall players. There, I had posted a question about the viability of stat-decreasing moves such as Feather Dance and Scary Face. While I absolutely support the general sentiment that stat-boosting moves such as Sword's Dance and Nasty Plot are superior, I wanted to try something out of the box and thought it'd be a fun team-building exercise to try to make them somehow useful.

I'm still doing some research on this (i.e., viable pokemon and moves), but in my mind, I think they would only be useful in a stall team. (Otherwise, it's more useful to just boost up your own stats.) I realize that stall teams have too many pokemon to counter and too many things to do in a limited number of moves/pokemon. Again, just a team-building exercise/theorymon.

On a very basic level, stall teams usually work by forcing switches anyways and winning through hazards and toxic. Could offensive-decreasing moves (such as Feather Dance or Noble Roar or Eerie Impulse) find use in a stall team to gain switches/momentum? Lowering the opposing pokemon's offensive stat could be useful in 1) reducing the amount of damage my team will take, 2) encouraging them to switch in order to remove them, and 3) possibly make it easier for my team to switch in an appropriate counter or a hazard-setter/remover.

Again, I know most stall teams will usually have something better to do than to use Charm, but was just curious.

 

[jbtc10]

I'm cross posting from Simple Questions/Answers thread because I wanted input from more experienced stall players. There, I had posted a question about the viability of stat-decreasing moves such as Feather Dance and Scary Face. While I absolutely support the general sentiment that stat-boosting moves such as Sword's Dance and Nasty Plot are superior, I wanted to try something out of the box and thought it'd be a fun team-building exercise to try to make them somehow useful.

I'm still doing some research on this (i.e., viable pokemon and moves), but in my mind, I think they would only be useful in a stall team. (Otherwise, it's more useful to just boost up your own stats.) I realize that stall teams have too many pokemon to counter and too many things to do in a limited number of moves/pokemon. Again, just a team-building exercise/theorymon.

On a very basic level, stall teams usually work by forcing switches anyways and winning through hazards and toxic. Could offensive-decreasing moves (such as Feather Dance or Noble Roar or Eerie Impulse) find use in a stall team to gain switches/momentum? Lowering the opposing pokemon's offensive stat could be useful in 1) reducing the amount of damage my team will take, 2) encouraging them to switch in order to remove them, and 3) possibly make it easier for my team to switch in an appropriate counter or a hazard-setter/remover.

Again, I know most stall teams will usually have something better to do than to use Charm, but was just curious.

Moves that do nothing but decrease stats aren't viable. If you're going to use direct damage reducing moves, you would be better off using Light Screen and/or Reflect. Screens are better than things like Feather Dance because they last 8 turns and work on all threats your opponent has even if they switch out, which means your other pokemon can wall things they otherwise couldn't and have more freedom to do what you'd like them to do. Even then, stall teams usually have more important things to be doing than that, like managing hazards, spreading status and chipping away at the opponent with attacks.

Another example of why moves like Feather Dance just don't work is because if your opponent sends out a threat which your current pokemon will lose to, you need to switch into a pokemon that deals with it. If the opponents pokemon sets up with say, Swords Dance as you switch your new pokemon in, you simply don't have time to then just use a move which brings their attack back down to its normal level, because in the process, you have to take damage from that +2 foe (which will do a lot of damage), and then there's nothing stopping them from attacking again after that at +0 which will more than likely KO you and the net result is that you've done nothing but lose a pokemon.

There's also the issue that most pokemon which are viable for use in defensive roles in OU either don't even have access to moves like Feather Dance or simply have absolutely no reason or a spare moveslot to use them even if they do.

In short, don't use moves like Feather Dance on stall teams.

 

[kirant]

I find that to be especially true when you have stuff like Heatran or Ferrothorn on your team. I had a lot of my earlier stall builds struggle with Fighting Weakness, so that's definitely something to consider. Sylveon is also harder to set up on (generally speaking), so if you're struggling with setup sweepers, it might also patch that up a little. Just throwing some ideas out there.

I would agree. Sylveon typically counters some of the Pokemon that gives the above two trouble like Conkeldurr.

I'm cross posting from Simple Questions/Answers thread because I wanted input from more experienced stall players. There, I had posted a question about the viability of stat-decreasing moves such as Feather Dance and Scary Face. While I absolutely support the general sentiment that stat-boosting moves such as Sword's Dance and Nasty Plot are superior, I wanted to try something out of the box and thought it'd be a fun team-building exercise to try to make them somehow useful.

I'm still doing some research on this (i.e., viable pokemon and moves), but in my mind, I think they would only be useful in a stall team. (Otherwise, it's more useful to just boost up your own stats.) I realize that stall teams have too many pokemon to counter and too many things to do in a limited number of moves/pokemon. Again, just a team-building exercise/theorymon.

On a very basic level, stall teams usually work by forcing switches anyways and winning through hazards and toxic. Could offensive-decreasing moves (such as Feather Dance or Noble Roar or Eerie Impulse) find use in a stall team to gain switches/momentum? Lowering the opposing pokemon's offensive stat could be useful in 1) reducing the amount of damage my team will take, 2) encouraging them to switch in order to remove them, and 3) possibly make it easier for my team to switch in an appropriate counter or a hazard-setter/remover.

Again, I know most stall teams will usually have something better to do than to use Charm, but was just curious.

Personally I think if you want to make your opponent switch you make them switch. If you want that non-Espeon pokemon out, you use Whirlwind/Roar. Giving them the opportunity to decide which Pokemon to move to is much worse IMO.

I almost look at this the same way Magic: The Gathering does card discard: letting your opponent pick which card to drop will let them pick their weakest cards and drop them whereas picking a random card may mean they end up with a huge loss. Similarly, using Whirlwind will result in them getting a random Pokemon...one they may hate to have in a match up.

Plus, there is no guarantee it'll work. Defiant/Competitive are abilities that will love your attacks. That plus some Pokemon being able to fight through that loss of attack means you'll probably have a limited range of Pokemon to hit. Even worse is if the other Pokemon has no interest in attacking either. With phaze attacks you can move a tough wall easily enough. But with these attacks you can't get them out. As a passive skill that doesn't take turns, like Intimidate, it's great since all you have to do is come in.

Granted I may not be the person you want to ask on this. I don't use stat buffing moves much unless it's for set up sweeping on my randomized Pokemon teams (as in literal RNG built. Scyther in OU for example).

In lower tiers Parting Shot might be possible as a scouting mechanic. Use it, switch to a wall, and tank better. If you're really interested in the attack dropping mechanics, do this with Intimidate and use the space to set Status Conditions or something like that as they won't be able to win a fight with -2 Attack, -1 Special Attack likely. But that's about it IMO.