Other Stall

[Jin White]

There are a few things in the OP that could be updated.

Sticky Web and Parting Shot

Although not much is known about these two moves yet, they seem to have quite a lot of potential. You can read about Sticky Web and Parting Shot in detail here, but I'll give a brief description of what each move does. Sticky Web is a base 20 power Bug type move, which slows down you opponent's Pokemon as they enter the field. Parting Shot when used lowers the target's Attack and Sp. Atk stats and then the user switches out. Sticky Web has to potential to be incredible for slower based teams, as offensive teams rely on their high speed stat a lot, while Parting Shot is sort of like a defensive U-turn, gaining a ton of momentum for defensive based teams.

Sticky Web is a support move, which is important because it can't be Protected/King's Shield'd etc but can be Taunted and Magic Bounce'd. Does Parting Shot have any competitive viability, given its distribution? And I'm still not sure how Sticky Web benefits a full-on stall team.

New Items (Assult Vest)

While we don't have too much information about the new items, there is one item that seems very interesting. This offensive vest raises Sp. Def but prevents the use of status moves...

Huge boon to stall teams and balanced teams alike, since it turns otherwise bulky spec def mons into nigh unbreakable special walls (I'm looking at you, TTar and Goodra).

I think WoW and Toxic both deserve an honorary mention in the stall-buff department. That 100% Toxic chance from a Poison-type, made all the more effective with Infiltrator (Crobat), is a nifty new toy. 85% Acc WoW in particular seems like it'd be the Stall Team's new best friend. Wallbreakers like MegaChomp and the aforementioned Lucario aren't going to care about Toxic damage, while the Burn, well, speaks for itself.

- x -

That said I'm kind of talking out my ass here because I'm a newbie when it comes to stall, and I want to learn how to make it viable this gen. I've always loved Stockpile Hippowdon so Sand Stall/Semi-Stall is what I'm leaning towards. RestTalk Gyarados and WoW Heatran are looking to make good partners on either end.

My question is how much weight to give special versus physical walls (or mixed) and if there's a "formula" you like to use when making your stall team. How are you combating VoltTurn in particular? Speedy Genesect and Rotom-W are everywhere.

As far as Megas, TTar hasn't gotten much mention here so far. His special bulk rivals AV TTar in sand (well, almost...) but it gets multiple chances to set up rocks and sand or maybe go for an endgame sweep.

AV TTar vs. Mega TTar

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 109-130 (26.98 - 32.17%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar in sand: 145-172 (35.89 - 42.57%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Anyways, any advice for a beginner would be appreciated. Thanks Ajwf for that post a little earlier, it's crazy informative.

 

[56k]

To note, stall is a very tough style to run right now. We're having trouble running it well, winning only about 75-80% of the time any more. This is down from the 90-99% that we had in gen5 (Yuttt topped the ladder in 5th before going provisional again and gave up, I had never gotten out before getting into the top 30). If the wall breakers leave a bit, we can truly get down to stalling again.

Megas we've attempted in stall are limited. Mega venusaur and scizor are our two go-to's, though it seems like blastoise wouldn't be bad. We selected the two we did for recovery, however. Both pokemon work very well, though again I prefer mega venu for his monstrous bulk on both sides.

Clerics hate mega gengar. That is all. If those users were smart, they'd just constantly show an attempt to mega evolve on a cleric just to keep it out the whole game. Since most of us probably run fairy/chansey as clerics, it is rather hard to get in one sludgebomb/perish trap gengar to support the team. Florges, however,

I think there's a major point we're all missing. The whole point of the stall team, 4 or 5 pokemon, is supporting a megaevolution on your team. Megaevolutions are the best and strongest OU pokemon in the game, except about 5 threats like talonflame and genesect on the same level. We would also have blaziken forms and deoxys forms coexisting if it was GF rules (thankfully not..) which shows just how strong these megapokemon are. Consider that medicham and garchomp are the bad ones.

Stall or not you always need some offense on your team, even just STABs and seismic toss. At least make them megapokemon if you want to compete.

And at the offensive level of Gen VI even Talonflame has serious questions to make about item and even making room for boosting moves, let alone viable coverage techs like HP ice or ground. Roost is the stall option for the long game. Sometimes all you need to do is outlast their best pokemon and keep a priority move in your back pocket.

So I would consider something like heatran/latias/hippowdon/rotom-w + mawile/talonflame a stall by it's sheer mechanics. 3 reliable recovery, like 8 leftovers, a CM in there maybe, some toxic. mawile and talonflame are the nuke you hold onto which... every team needs by default. Venusaur also definitely is an epic tank, and i think aggron has a decent playbook but half the time it's survive anything and hit back or thunder wave. But seriously we should just use a stall team to support lucario or pinsir or something, at least that's what I'm thinking.

Maybe if you kinda think in those terms there's better stall 3/4/5 mini teams to develop for your OU behemoth of choice. (use kangaskhan)

 

[Honus]

We're not talking mega gyarados, just intimidate gyarados as a lucario counter. Flying/water gives resists to both stabs (Same idea with slowbro) and a neutral hit will due less damage than a .5 hit to gyarados, meaning they should still spam CC at him if they feel like staying in.

Mega venu can't, without being molded, take on lucario and win mindlessly. I suppose you could probably take a hit and eq, see where that leaves you (if +2, you won't survive another shot... however neutral mega lucario should do about 30-40?) and perhaps use synthesis, as they probably won't sac lucario. If they stay in, then kill it. However, Mega venu realistically shouldn't be fighting mega luc.

typo i swear, i knew he meant regular gyara but i guess my brain switched the two since i was thinking of mega venu, 2nd part of your post basically outlines what i imagine would happen in such a scenario. the best answer is probably to play so its air tight and lucario can't get in until you've killed a sufficient number of their pokemon and you have a poke like quagsire to take a hit and ko, shame you can't rk it like you used to back in older gens with scarftar

also aside from luke, manaphy and i guess landorus, i don't think stall is too hard because of how ridiculously centralized things are, heatran and quagsire do work vs an incredible amount of teams.

 

[56k]

What megas have stally and trolling characteristics? Something that goes against the grain maybe? Well here's one that actually works pretty well. It mainly has functions against other megas but also has a sizeable cross section of good switch ins, like heatran, rotom-A, goodra, other psycics, other stall pokemon in general.

Alakazam@Alakazite
(please note zam's defense goes from 45 to 65 on megaevolve which brings it into 2hko range for many things and both have 95 Spd not unlike deoxys-s)
Magic Guard -> Trace
Modest
252 HP / 20 SpA / 236 Spe
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Psyshock
-Reflect/ThunderWave


Just look at MegaZam's sprite. Obviously you need to think like some kind of chessmaster when using this set, but it's rewarding in its own ways. With three support options this guy definitely has sustain but you need to know which things are gonna 2hko after your boost and which things wont.

He brings his own set of win conditions in the late game. He can boost. MegaGengar cannot. He can troll with trace by copying, say, levitate. He can also fire off a really fast thunder wave right before something like khan or greninja KOs him. Psyshock gives him the advantage against other CM boosters. He can megaevolve on Gyarados and intimidate it while setting up reflect, then switch out to his teammate. He's faster than megagengar and crobat by one point after megaevolve, and he's faster than garchomp by two points before megaevolve.

But obviously he is straight walled by dark types, he hates things like talonflame and aegislash and scizor and tyranitar, and sometimes he has "one trick pony" issues. You need to stack up teammates against the aforementioned u-turn pivots, priority users, and dark types. It seems like everything that sand teams do, alakazam hates. Therefore I had success with this zam on opposing weather teams with ninetales or politoed. For me this has seemed like the most utilitarian mega (after gengar and khan who are the best). He can snipe things with his speed, avoid residual damage, surprise opponents, and frail or not reliable recovery always has uses. Tyranitar, Greninja, Genesect, Aegislash, Talonflame, Scizor, Sableye, Pinsir, ScarfChomp and of course Kangaskan are your biggest issues. Tacking on any one coverage move could help against some but not all of them. IF YOU ARE A STALL PLAYER then it's best to ignore trying to tech kills on those counters and instead just focus on Zam's academic strengths. Turn your pokemon match into a chess game and use zam to support and troll while your team grinds out the kills.





Here's another neo-stall pokemon I've enjoyed using.

Jolteon@Leftovers
Volt Absorb
Timid
196 HP / 112 SpA / 200 Spe
-Volt Switch
-Hidden Power Ice
-Heal Bell
-???


Do you really want to speed tie other 130s? Is that why you'd max out speed? A 50/50 chance? No, those EVs can be used for bulk. You're already faster than Noiverns here and there's nothing left to creep except Talonflame who Jolteon honestly shouldn't be your answer to. It might seem laughable to suggest bulk on Jolteon but remember it has the same defenses as espeon and has it's own set of support characteristics. EVs bring you up to 320 HP, damn respectable, and the sizeable SpA investment expands your HP Ice range slightly on things like dragonite and landorus as well as buffs up STAB volt switch.

What's the point of this guy? The fastest heal bell out there. In the same way that sometimes you need to try to save up your fastest pokemon to come out last, you can save up your fast heal bell and use it to turn the game. Leftovers is what makes this a stall pokemon, able to get some extra switches in and survive a few hits. The last slot is completely up to you. How about Rain Dance? Shadow Ball? Yawn? Thunder Wave? Toxic? Substitute? I use protect because I'm playing stall and two turns of leftovers negates SR damage. But remember, this jolteon is really weak offensively, so only stay in when you're sure you'll survive or your sure they're weakened enough to be picked off.



Both of the above pokemon seem questionable. HP investment on pokemon that should be maxing out offenses? Leftovers jolteon? Well that's the point of a stall team. You can survive attacks that other people cant and use your utility belt to inch towards a win. You have sustain. And they can't 2hko your walls.

 

[Ajwf]

That mega slot, however, could be used so much better. Blastoise, Venusaur and Scizor beg to be tried as stall masterkeys. Scizor even has defog, so two of your main walls now can rid the field of hazards. Also, Aggron (70/230/80 defenses), ttar, (100/150/120) and even gyarados (95/109/130) can all make cases to being tank/walls that, with some wish passers, are devastatingly effective at major walling. Mega Gyara can run an effective resttalk set. Aggron also gets a 25% defensive boost to any SE damage. So I just don't see how a 65/55/95 defensive pokemon can be justified for stall, with a terrible defensive typing (pure psychic). Yes, it can be an honest check to some threats, but in a stall team, check means you're still losing a pokemon.

I would say that a pokemon like Mega-Ampharos deserves some looking if any of the above don't work just because it is one of the few that can cleric (heal bell) and dish massive damage with no investment (165 SpA without investment is more than enough for a stall team). Issue lies in the fact that it's typing gives you no decent resistances.

 

[Mulligan]

I would say that a pokemon like Mega-Ampharos deserves some looking if any of the above don't work just because it is one of the few that can cleric (heal bell) and dish massive damage with no investment (165 SpA without investment is more than enough for a stall team). Issue lies in the fact that it's typing gives you no decent resistances.

Mega Ampharos does resist common priority moves such as Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch and Gale Wings Brave Bird/Aerilate Quick Attack fwiw. The only defensive set I can think of though is Rest + Sleep Talk, which is a bit more reliable this gen now with the new (old) sleep mechanics. Ampharos has piqued my interest lately, but I haven't tested it yet due to other things I'm currently testing/need to test.

 

[Ajwf]

Rest/sleep talk WOULD be good if heal bell didn't have so limited pp, meaning you could possibly wake up early. However, I suggest heal bell/rest/Discharge/Dragon pulse just for dragonbolt coverage, which has complete neutral coverage on all individual types.

 

[Mulligan]

Oh, I was actually suggesting something more like Rest/Sleep Talk/Thunderbolt or Discharge/Dragon Pulse. No one should ever run Heal Bell on a Rest + Sleep Talk set. You're better off running two attacks IMO, especially off of that base 165 SpA. You could run Reflect over Dragon Pulse if you don't need the coverage though. It might cut down the damage on less powerful Earthquake users. Physically Defensive Rotom-A used to do it two generations ago on it's ResTalk set back when it was Ghost/Electric on all formes. Messed up Pursuit Scizors and Tyranitars.

Just throwing around random ideas.

 

[qwazz]

So on the con side, I think infiltrate needs to be mentioned, as stallmons with sub are less useful now.

 

[Ajwf]

Really, what stall mons use subs? If you do use subs, let me explain why this idea isn't really smart.

A. Stall gains damage by forcing switches. This means the stall pokes are constantly on the move, which substitute basically asks you to stay in.
B. Stall pokemon are naturally bulky and do not need subs. Most sub users are trying to make a pokemon that would be OHKO'd take two hits to take out.
C. Most importantly, stall pokemon want health. Substitute robs this.

Infiltrator pokes shouldn't be a bother.

 

[AOPSUser]

Really, what stall mons use subs? If you do use subs, let me explain why this idea isn't really smart.

A. Stall gains damage by forcing switches. This means the stall pokes are constantly on the move, which substitute basically asks you to stay in.
B. Stall pokemon are naturally bulky and do not need subs. Most sub users are trying to make a pokemon that would be OHKO'd take two hits to take out.
C. Most importantly, stall pokemon want health. Substitute robs this.

Infiltrator pokes shouldn't be a bother.

Gliscor? Gen V Tentacruel? Walrein?

Really the only thing is that Gliscor no longer beats Chandelure easily (or at all). Infiltrator is more of a bother for set-up sweepers that use Substitute.

 

[qwazz]

Well maybe I play a more offensive stall I guess... I like to boost my pokes under a sub, and then be near unstoppable, of course this is only an ideal situation. I generally use bulky pokemon, butI guess you could say what I do isn't exactly stalling then, but I thought I'd bring it up

 

[AOPSUser]

All of those Pokemon have better things to be doing rather than setting up a Substitute. Gligar already has a serious case of 4MSS. Tentacruel and especially Walrein can't do that sort of thing with loss of permanent weather. They're both pretty subpar in this meta to say the least. I'd also say it's a pretty lousy argument to discuss how a Pokemon performed with this move last gen just to prove your point. This is a gen 6 discussion mind you, it's like saying that Flygon is still effective in gen 5 because it did well in gen 4.

I was using them to point out that stall mons can in fact use Sub.

Gliscor is the only one that does mind you. Also about 60% of the Gliscor I've faced are Sub/Protect/EQ/filler.

 

[qwazz]

Really? Man, I've been using gliscor wrong this whole time

 

[qwazz]

Well what I'm saying is that subs are no longer useful, even on stallmons that it used to be good on. Which is why I brought infiltrator up

 

[farranpoison]

Well what I'm saying is that subs are no longer useful, even on stallmons that it used to be good on. Which is why I brought infiltrator up

If you're talking about Infiltrator, you have to realize just what mons get it. The only real notable mons that get it are Crobat, Noivern, Chandelure, and maaaaaybe Meowstic. Out of those mons, the only real threats I'd say for stall teams that use sub is Chandelure, since Crobat's Taunt goes through subs anyway.

So no, just because of Infiltrator, I don't think Subs are completely useless.

 

[AOPSUser]

Well what I'm saying is that subs are no longer useful, even on stallmons that it used to be good on. Which is why I brought infiltrator up

This likewise means Infiltrator has no more use against stall.

And yeah stall doesn't use Substitute anyways.

And lol Infiltrator Meowstic.

 

[qwazz]

It's not just taunt though, it can break through screens (I know, that's been the case for a while) and totally avoid the sub, being able to deal damage through the sub, rendering the sub useless. Also status moves such as toxic, which I expect to be a big one on crobat due to 100% accuracy

 

[Ajwf]

Infiltrator is going to be very rare... The distribution to two UU pokemon (Crowbat/Noivern) and one to-be OU poke (chandy) has very little relevance. Sound based moves, however, are a bit of a note in that direction as well. Again, the only one you should have to worry about is boom burst and bug buzz if you did run subs...

I also find it funny how people are saying stall suffers from defog, was reading Balanced offense (Aka BO) thread and they were saying stall would go status stall via traps. Defog benefits stall far more because of our mascot mon, skarmory, getting even better. It can now hazard, phaze, and clear hazards without having to use multiple roles. Gliscor falls into this as well. Stall teams no longer get counter set by HO and worn down by their own methods, they can reliably keep their own health in check while not having to rely on horribly inept spinners to perform this role.

I do, however, think burn stall is a great way to go. psycho shift sigi was on a team I made just before gen 6 and it was beautiful.

Also, I was thinking that infiltrator spiritomb could be a good stall mon with Willowisp/toxic/pain split/trick hitting through subs and it's already good bulk. Just because we don't have to worry about infiltrator doesn't mean other styles don't. And really, spiritomb is the only infiltrator poke usable for stall. I tried using it as a reun endgamer and it did nicely, but it couldn't stop clefable well enough so I haven't a ton of experience with it.

 

[qwazz]

Maybe it's not as big of an impact on stalls as I thought, however it definitely does make sub a lot less appealing

 

[Aqua-Niki]

I was interested in running Stall since I heard about it being more viable this gen. I made a team based on hazards and phazing though I made it move more toward hazard and toxic Stall). I don't know if this is a correct place to ask this, but I posted it on RMT and would be interested in people giving me their thoughts about it. Here is the link : http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-team.3493661/

 

[56k]

Here's a battle between two players seemingly testing out some new core ideas while also using some old standards. I'm playing Hippowdon/Mandibuzz sandstall with Heatran/MegaAlakazam/Hyreigon/Cradily while my opponent is using Tyranitar and MegaLucario combined with Gastrodon/Claydol/Sableye/Heatran.

I'll explain my team. Hippo brings the sand and checks/counters many things with EQ/crunch/toxic/slackoff. Mandibuzz trolls with taunt/foul play and also has defog to control hazards. Heatran is self explanatory. MegaZam is a defensive set I mentioned earlier. (he trolls pretty hard). Hydreigon is a completely experimental custom set with leftovers and roost. I like the dark STAB and flamethrower. It also has u-turn. Finally there's cradily, a seemingly wtf pokemon. Actually at full defense it checks talonflame and counters rotom-w and lays SR.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-66311027

In the beginning of the match I was mainly scouting my opponent. His gastrodon actually scared me because toxic isn't so good for me, but turns out he didnt carry it. Besides scouting, the rest of the early game was just hazard control. Finally at turn 23 we learn what his team is all about, the SD megaluke set. It's fucking hard to wall that shit (especially when it's backed up with bandtar heatran and sableye and especially because luke also has a nasty plot set)

At one point on a double switch zam and luke traded blows. After that, only my hippowdon could take the hit if it ever got to +2 so that's what the match became about. Mandibuzz tried to tank through Lucario when it was at 86% but clearly 96%+ HP was required. And after hippowdon got burned it wasn't looking good, but he did slack off and get to high enough HP to survive megaluke. Eventually it became clear that my hippowdon never has to come out to fight any of his pokemon, except for lucario, and my opponent gave up after 50+ turns.

By no means that great of a team, especially considering I realized how weak I would be to a lucario with ice punch. There's also definite need for a heal beller. But I like the concepts that are present with the water/flame absorb abilities, levitate, and zam's trace.

 

[Ajwf]

While the hydregon gives you a good deal of offensive presence, I would definitely switch him out. You're just giving yourself more weakness to lucario, or any fighter when you already have 2 fight weaknesses and one fairy weakness before Hydreg. In fact, because you lack a water type (FWG cores actually work fantastically well), you might want to consider gyarados/slowbro or add celebi/gourgeist-super/cofagrigus as other means to help take care of fight types.

 

[Ajwf]

Hmm, so I started work on a second stall team and I'm noticing a trend. Stall is developing more into a team that gains three really, really tough walls and three tanks. You have fire power first, and just rely on threat switching. I rely on moves when I attack to do roughly 33% damage, enough to really bother other teams. I'm not sure if this is closer to bulky offense, but I assume they still focus on set up/OHKOs. The stall teams now just have to be able to dish some damage back.

Also, registeel is kind of showing up to be a good stall poke with the new sleep mechanics. Very little can OHKO him and right now, I'm enjoying his ability to rock up on all the EQ leads. Edgequake him and he should be fine.

On topic of other stall pokes, I did attempt hydregion as a poke the other day. It ALMOST worked. He forces switches, has decent stats to work with and has recovery. Coverage is perfect and he can almost counter stall. However, the lack of power was a bit much. He is niche, but I think with 6 resists and two immunities someone could find a spot on him.

Lastly, typing cores:
For stall, I'm looking at a few stall cores

Fire/Water/Grass
Psychic/Dark/Steel
Fairy/Steel/Dragon
Ghost/Dark/Fairy

All these cores have proven very good defensively, however the last is almost solely for bulky offense as it doesn't provide good resistances, just covers each other well. Any other good cores to base around (I made a team to integrate the Psychic/dark/Steel and fairy/steel/dragon core, and it is working wonderfully... be doing an RMT by Tuesday with how good it has shaped up, me thinks)

 

[Yuttt]

I'd like to clear the confusion of the difference between Offensive Stall and Bulky Offense. Offensive stall is a type of play that, first and foremost, endeavors to counter all the pokemon in the meta. That, in itself, differentiates it from Bulky Offense. Now the difference from that to regular stall is that the next priority is not to Spikes stack/Phaze, but rather deal straightfoward damage. Common examples of this include Rhyperior, Aegislash, Tangrowth, etc. Knock off is also common, as not only is it powerful, but has an amazing side effect.