• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Other Stall

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is exactly why its broken imo, Goth is a mindless no skill pokemon and takes prediction, switching AND switching moves against it out of the game. It still wins against most defensive knock off users and can just Trick Rest struggle stall walls and/or CM and get to +6+6 and sweep your whole team unless you have pursuit or unaware clef. At the very worst it just picks off pokemon of its choosing to open up sweeps. Id actually love to see it or Shadow Tag suspect tested tbh. I dont think anyone in the right mind can call it Shadow Tag a healthy ability for a competitive environment.
This remembered me of an old topic in the Victory Road topic about possible suspect tests untill ORAS would come out. Especially Shadow Tag and Baton Pass were brought up in the topic and I think you should definitely look at it. In my opinion, shadow tag is a stupid ability but I don't think it is broken enough to warrant a suspect test, but maybe when the metagame evolves after the greninja ban I'll change my mind.

Topic I'm talking about: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-thoughts-until-oras.3517181/#post-5765940
 
rmt-tangrowth.png
Dream_Assault_Vest_Sprite.png

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake/Rock Slide/Focus Blast

This thing has been an absolute monster for me lately. Being able to handle things like Keldeo, Azumaril (Non BD), Lando T, Thundurus, Heatran, Latias and even Latios 1v1. (Except for two max rolls.) It's got excellent mixed attacking stats for something so bulky at 100/115 and the assault vest makes up for it's poor special bulk. Combined with good recovery in regenerator and giga drain and solid mono grass typing letting it handle sand and rain offense rather well. This thing is really underrated as an excellent mixed tank.
 
Mega Slowbro is a great mega for stall but the biggest disadvantage is that you can't use Mega Sableye.

This is one thing that really troubles me about Mega Sableye. What reason is there for a stall team not to run it? The benefits that it grants in terms of team support alone are greater than the benefits that many individual stallmons give to their team in terms of synergy, hazard control, and other team support capabilities.

In other words, many stall teams could just find a pokemon to replace with Mega Sableye; it might not synergise quite as well, and you may find yourself weak to particular threats, or lacking particular hazards, but Sableye's team support would more than make up for it and, experimentally speaking, you should win more as a result. Pokemon whose roles overlap with Sableye, or cannot be run alongside Mega Sableye are particularly at risk of this. I don't think there's any other pokemon that offers such powerful and universal support to stall teams in general. If it's difficult to visualise, think of the support that Politoed gave rain stall teams in BW1, though this example is more specific and clearly more dramatic.

Since Sableye is a primary pokemon in this sense, I think it should be the case that (and we may see in the coming months) the best stall team is Sableye and five mons to support Sableye.

I don't think this is good for stall; it may certainly help stall win more when people are not stacking fairy wallbreakers or running Skill Swap Azelf, but it doesn't bode well for inventiveness or novelty in a playstyle for which these qualities have been notably effective, when present. And it certainly doesn't bode well for the stall player's opponent, and their team variety, if in every battle Sableye is always the primary threat to eliminate or weaken.

As a stall player I'm personally far more concerned about Sableye's detrimental effects on the metagame than Greninja's (but don't intend to start a Greninja discussion). In vague terms, it's generally accepted that Greninja, with its speed and power, threatens most the teams that run neither bulky walls that aren't 2HKOd by its attacks, nor multiple pokemon capable of revenging it. It is comparatively a minimal threat to teams that do run these pokemon. In similar terms I don't think it's unfair to say that Sableye, with its ability and durability, threatens all teams that rely on hazard damage or to a lesser extent rapid spinning. For both offense and stall the former is absolutely crucial, and against a stall team balance too can't do without hazard damage. Sableye threatens the entire metagame, and I think (though this may in the future prove false) the reason it is not currently seen as a primary threat on the level of Greninja is comparatively low usage.

I used "primary" in previous sentences to mean not just 'most important', but moreso 'first'. It is the first pokemon that any stall team should consider in order to be most successful, and it is the first pokemon that any opponent must consider in order to be most successful at winning. Idk about other stall players, but myself, I don't really like this.
What kind of pokemon do you use? Rhyperior or hippo? Unaware clef? I could use some ideas

I've been quite liking Diancie @ Shuca berry with a spread of 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA Relaxed as a check to most birds and some dragons. The lack of recovery unfortunately means that although it can switch in to Talonflame repeatedly, some of the stronger birds (Pinsir is a bird right?) can only be checked once or twice. But its fairy STAB forces out he-who-shall-not-be-named, so that Diancie can set rocks.
 
Last edited:
The problem with mega sableye is that you have to run it on stall and stall overall isn't a really viable play style with things like Goth and mega gardevoir running around, so I doubt it's suspect worthy.
This is coming from someone who got to 2400 coil with a stall team but couldn't get further because every decent player had a reliable way to beat stall.
 
The problem with mega sableye is that you have to run it on stall and stall overall isn't a really viable play style with things like Goth and mega gardevoir running around, so I doubt it's suspect worthy.
This is coming from someone who got to 2400 coil with a stall team but couldn't get further because every decent player had a reliable way to beat stall.
I don't really agree with this point. While Gothitelle, Manaphy and Mega Heracross are probably the hardest things to wall, it's not that they are on every team you face. I have build succesful stall teams which could beat Mega Gardevoir, Landorus and Mega Gyara and still having hazards control, ways to beat other stall and still not being too passive to become set-up fodder for everything in the game. Many of my offensive teams have 1 way big stall- or wallbreaker like Mega Gardevoir and I don't feel like I can beat every stall team in the world reliably because stall has adapted to things like Gardevoir (you actually can reliable kill stall if you run gardevoir + pursuit trapper though)
The problem with Sableye is not that it can not be beaten, (all my teams have very reliable answers for it, and nothing being gimmicky) but because it offers so much support in 1 team slot. It may be killed by Mega Gardevoir, but the XY Stall Mega (Venusaur) would be killed by it too. Stall has 5 other teammates as backup for things that threaten Sableye just like offense has teammates that can switch into a scarf keldeo because it threatens their Greninja.
 
when you play stall, do you usually win by fainting 6 opposing Pokemon or by having none/few Pokemon of yours fainted so the opponent quit and you win? no sarcasm intended
 
The problem with mega sableye is that you have to run it on stall and stall overall isn't a really viable play style with things like Goth and mega gardevoir running around, so I doubt it's suspect worthy.
This is coming from someone who got to 2400 coil with a stall team but couldn't get further because every decent player had a reliable way to beat stall.
Mons like Jirachi and Scizor beat Mega Gardevoir, and have lots of other uses. Gothitelle is a major problem but you can beat it sometimes (e.g. Payback Amoonguss can catch it off guard, and unexpected U-turners can waste its Trick). Stall is definitely a viable playstyle, I got to #1 with a stall team about a week ago, but there is no way to prepare for every common threat any more with so many common wallbreakers/trappers about. The thing that specifically annoys me the most though is definitely TrickRest Gothitelle, you just can't rely on things like Chansey any more.
 
when you play stall, do you usually win by fainting 6 opposing Pokemon or by having none/few Pokemon of yours fainted so the opponent quit and you win? no sarcasm intended
Most of the time when I win when using stall the opponent forfeits after he knows he can't break my defensive core anymore. That is often when he only has like 1-3 pokemon left and I have 2-4 left.
 
What makes stall enjoyable for you all anyway? I've never enjoyed playing defensively or playing against someone who is defensive since, in this case, it makes games last upwards of 30 minutes rather than 5-10.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or insult anyone, I'm genuinely curious.
 
What makes stall enjoyable for you all anyway? I've never enjoyed playing defensively or playing against someone who is defensive since, in this case, it makes games last upwards of 30 minutes rather than 5-10.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or insult anyone, I'm genuinely curious.
I personally find it to extremely satisfying when my defensive core makes it so the opponent is simply unable to do any damage.

Also, while the long battles do get a bit tedious, I find they make the wins that much more satisfying.
 
It's a playstyle based around being able to safely switch around more often and instead of risking the whole game on a single prediction you have more "chances" to make guesses and still recover from the bad ones, unlike a HO team switching their landorus into a electric attack but eating a HP Ice and immediately forfeiting. A spdef gliscor on the other hand could accidentally eat a HP Ice attack but still come back later if you get some heals off.

But at the same time you usually only have very minor and subtle ways to capitalize on a good double switch because it's unlikely you have anything that can sweep; all you get is a free scald fishing or some breathing room to safely recover up. Less risk less reward? But consistency overall and less desperate gambling.

Depending on team matchup you'll still have to make more or less predictions and guesses, depending, but not everyone runs multiple wallbreakers on their teams so half the time you get pretty relaxing games where all you have to do is scout a couple movesets and make the logical moves.

Which is why I like stall because it seems to linearize games and make them more strategic instead of wild and unpredictable.
 
What makes stall enjoyable for you all anyway? I've never enjoyed playing defensively or playing against someone who is defensive since, in this case, it makes games last upwards of 30 minutes rather than 5-10.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or insult anyone, I'm genuinely curious.

I enjoy sadism.

This is one thing that really troubles me about Mega Sableye. What reason is there for a stall team not to run it? The benefits that it grants in terms of team support alone are greater than the benefits that many individual stallmons give to their team in terms of synergy, hazard control, and other team support capabilities.

In other words, many stall teams could just find a pokemon to replace with Mega Sableye; it might not synergise quite as well, and you may find yourself weak to particular threats, or lacking particular hazards, but Sableye's team support would more than make up for it and, experimentally speaking, you should win more as a result. Pokemon whose roles overlap with Sableye, or cannot be run alongside Mega Sableye are particularly at risk of this. I don't think there's any other pokemon that offers such powerful and universal support to stall teams in general. If it's difficult to visualise, think of the support that Politoed gave rain stall teams in BW1, though this example is more specific and clearly more dramatic.

Since Sableye is a primary pokemon in this sense, I think it should be the case that (and we may see in the coming months) the best stall team is Sableye and five mons to support Sableye.

I don't think this is good for stall; it may certainly help stall win more when people are not stacking fairy wallbreakers or running Skill Swap Azelf, but it doesn't bode well for inventiveness or novelty in a playstyle for which these qualities have been notably effective, when present. And it certainly doesn't bode well for the stall player's opponent, and their team variety, if in every battle Sableye is always the primary threat to eliminate or weaken.

As a stall player I'm personally far more concerned about Sableye's detrimental effects on the metagame than Greninja's (but don't intend to start a Greninja discussion). In vague terms, it's generally accepted that Greninja, with its speed and power, threatens most the teams that run neither bulky walls that aren't 2HKOd by its attacks, nor multiple pokemon capable of revenging it. It is comparatively a minimal threat to teams that do run these pokemon. In similar terms I don't think it's unfair to say that Sableye, with its ability and durability, threatens all teams that rely on hazard damage or to a lesser extent rapid spinning. For both offense and stall the former is absolutely crucial, and against a stall team balance too can't do without hazard damage. Sableye threatens the entire metagame, and I think (though this may in the future prove false) the reason it is not currently seen as a primary threat on the level of Greninja is comparatively low usage.

I used "primary" in previous sentences to mean not just 'most important', but moreso 'first'. It is the first pokemon that any stall team should consider in order to be most successful, and it is the first pokemon that any opponent must consider in order to be most successful at winning. Idk about other stall players, but myself, I don't really like this.


I've been quite liking Diancie @ Shuca berry with a spread of 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA Relaxed as a check to most birds and some dragons. The lack of recovery unfortunately means that although it can switch in to Talonflame repeatedly, some of the stronger birds (Pinsir is a bird right?) can only be checked once or twice. But its fairy STAB forces out he-who-shall-not-be-named, so that Diancie can set rocks.


You make it sound like Sableye is without fault. I know that's not what you intend, but there is reason to use other mons. The first is perhaps the most overlooked: Sableye IS the meta. Stall gets by primarily on being an anti-meta style since if you prepare for stall builds, you win unconditionally due to the slow speed of stall allowing you to bully it around.

Secondly, sableye cannot eat damage like other stall megas. I used Scizor recently and enjoyed it a lot simply due to all the fairy based attackers for Sable. Again with the first point, the rockers that sable should block have adjusted: We see rockers that can BEAT sableye now. (Landorus, Heatran?, MB Exca and the lot).

Lastly, you pit too much to use sable: The team is built for sable. When I use megas on stall teams, I like each one to work with each other, but no part to really rely on another mon too heavily. Sable seems to sit with at least two fairy resists to eat all the attacks. While you may say that that's fine since those fairy resists are generally steel types, I still think that's too much focus fire for one mon. If I use Mega Slowbro, I only need one other mon to take on physical attackers. If I use mega altaria, I can cross off a good bit of the meta on important to my team to the point that I win or lose based off of their survival.

Really, you're betting on your slow team somehow managing to win in a meta that prepares for you.
 
What makes stall enjoyable for you all anyway? I've never enjoyed playing defensively or playing against someone who is defensive since, in this case, it makes games last upwards of 30 minutes rather than 5-10.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or insult anyone, I'm genuinely curious.
Most games don't last 30 minutes even with stall, and often when they do it can be an even more satisfying win. My favourite part of this game is teambuilding and stall is the playstyle where good teambuilding is rewarded most, for me too often offence boils down to just hoping your predicts work out. Watching teams melt away to toxic damage etc. can be more satisfying than just landing blows. It's all subjective really.
 
How are people fairing with mirror M-sableye stall matchups? For me, it's a nightmare to play unless I have a dedicated wallbreaker or stallbreaker waiting in the wings, but then I lose out on having a 6th defensive pokemon. Having CM Clef and Taunt Heatran are one of the few pokes who are both defensive and can stallbreak to an extent, but are pretty well-prepared for by opposing stall teams...

Suggestions?
 
In my own M-Sable team the only answer I have to it is CM Clefable. It really doesn't need to have CM since 80% of Sableyes usually carry Knock Off + Foul Play rather than CM + Dark Pulse; but is better to have it if it is your only answer. Heatran is cool tho; but I don't really use Heatran too much on stall.
 
How are people fairing with mirror M-sableye stall matchups? For me, it's a nightmare to play unless I have a dedicated wallbreaker or stallbreaker waiting in the wings, but then I lose out on having a 6th defensive pokemon. Having CM Clef and Taunt Heatran are one of the few pokes who are both defensive and can stallbreak to an extent, but are pretty well-prepared for by opposing stall teams...

Suggestions?
Clefable can beat it with pretty much every set, Suicune can pressure stall it and also hope for a scald burn, a mega altaria as win condition with either heal bell, substitute or the special set beat it. Sylveon is also a solid answer. Skill Swap Cresselia can toxic it after a skill swap and if you don't have one of these you can always try to pp stall Sableye (just make sure you have a way to threaten the CM set like perish song or haze)
 
I guess what I meant to say is that it's not just about beating M-sableye, but beating the team around it as well (which is the nature of stall's playstyle). Yes, I can use Clefable to switch in, but then the opposing player is gonna switch to their Jirachi. I switch out my Clefable and then it's a new cycle of endless play.

What makes it endless play, though, IS M-sableye. You can't stack hazards as reliably as before with your own stall team, and traditional stallbreakers relying on Taunt that used to fit on stall like Mew are rendered obsolete because of M-sabs. Maybe I'm just overestimating the scenario, but mirror M-sab matchups are so mind-numbingly frustrating for me.
 
Facing full stall with full stall (usually M-Sable stall) you have to make hard predictions and usually risky plays (like if you are playing offense or bulky offense against full stall); playing around m-sableye is hard specially if you don't have any pokemon to shut him down; but this is pokemon; if you play stall and you don't have an answer to a certain S-Rank threat you should think about retireing (i'm not talkin bout you :P)
 
I guess what I meant to say is that it's not just about beating M-sableye, but beating the team around it as well (which is the nature of stall's playstyle). Yes, I can use Clefable to switch in, but then the opposing player is gonna switch to their Jirachi. I switch out my Clefable and then it's a new cycle of endless play.

What makes it endless play, though, IS M-sableye. You can't stack hazards as reliably as before with your own stall team, and traditional stallbreakers relying on Taunt that used to fit on stall like Mew are rendered obsolete because of M-sabs. Maybe I'm just overestimating the scenario, but mirror M-sab matchups are so mind-numbingly frustrating for me.
Stall vs Stall can end up to 200 turn games. It often ends when one of the players finds the opportunity to set up a calm mind / dragon dance / whatever or sets up their hazards. You might have problems killing the Mega Sableye of your opponent, but your opponents will have problems killing yours and especially with Mega Sableye on the field stall vs stall games just became longer than before. There are like 4 things you can do to beat other stall

1. hazards stacking - not working because of mega sableye, but if you play well you can get your hazards up (just keep offensive pressure with victini for example so skarmory doesn't defog)
2. stallbreaker - 5 pokemon + stallbreaker (gothitelle most of the time) is the most popular way to defeat other stall at the moment. You don't defeat the Sableye with Gothitelle, but you can dismantle defensive cores so Sableye is weakened way more easy. Mega Heracross and Manaphy are other pokemon that work nice.
3. pp stalling - while adding a stallbreaker is nice to defeat other stall, it gives you no defensive synergy and it leaves you weaker against offensive teams. PP Stalling is probably the best way to defeat other stall. If you sleep and don't go for Sleep Talk, you don't lose any pp so that really helps you, so random rest on something like Jirachi really help you. Regenerator is also very nice to keep everything healthy and using pressure mons (Zapdos and Suicune) makes some battles much shorter
4. Offensive pokemon with defensive synergy - Take Victini for example. A friend of me peaked #100 with Victini stall. Unlike Gothitelle and Heracross, Victini offers great defensive synergy, it is a good check to Gardevoir and it can break stall because the standard stallbreaker set does 89% damage with 2 low rolls (guaranteed KO after rocks) to Mega Sableye. It can keep Mega Sableye out so you can easily taunt and wisp the other stall pokemon while they can't really beat you (except some things like earthquake gliscor hurts) In XY the second most popular stall mega after Venusaur was Zard-X. Zard-X gave excellent defensive synergy and the wisp-roost set was very annoying to beat.

^ those are pretty much the best ways to beat opposing stall. While the most important thing is to kill balance, because that is most common, having none of these often let you hopeless against other stall.
 
Hey there, just a question.

I've seen tons of people here talking about Skill Swap Cresselia; i just wanted to know what set (evs and moves) does she run and what is her utility in a stall team.

It seems to be like the defensive version of SS Azelf ?
 
Hey there, just a question.

I've seen tons of people here talking about Skill Swap Cresselia; i just wanted to know what set (evs and moves) does she run and what is her utility in a stall team.

It seems to be like the defensive version of SS Azelf ?
Cresselia is one of the best counters to Landorus-I, even with Knock Off. You have a switch-in for Kyurem-Black (although you'll probably lose if you don't have moonblast). Cress can also wall things like SD Garchomp and Terrakion pretty easily

Cresselia @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonlight
- Skill Swap / Psychic / Moonblast
- Ice Beam
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
 
thx you so much SketchUp (damn idk how to quote your name, tag or whatever)

But I can't see the utility of Skill Swap (just for m-sable i guess ?_?)
 
thx you so much SketchUp (damn idk how to quote your name, tag or whatever)

But I can't see the utility of Skill Swap (just for m-sable i guess ?_?)

Skill swap allows you to remove key abilities that allow stallbreaking 'mons to function. Most notably you can now Toxic kill Clefable, Manaphy, and Gliscor by removing Mguard, Hydration, and Poison Heal respectively. Furthermore, you can swap out Gothitelle's Shadow Tag, which allows your Cresselia to escape (even if it will be tricked a scarf in the process).

Other handful things skill swap does is remove Magic Bounce and Flash Fire and offensive abilities like Sheer Force.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top