The problem with Trick Room on something like Bronzong is that unless you have the right moves or an actual plan other than to "mess up those fast sweepers", something like Rhyperior can come in and start tearing things apart. And if it has SD, ugh.
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Stalling thread.
- Thread starter majesty
- Start date
Good point. Trick Room is a double-edged sword. However, anyone using Bronzong as a Trick Roomer should anticipate Rhyperior and make sure to be slow enough to move first, which means 13 Speed IV at most with hindering nature. Such a Bronzong should also carry Grass Knot, or at least Hypnosis, but that alone is risky if something is already asleep.
Examples of when some Choice Banders won't beat stall?
When a stall team is properly built with resistances to every attacking type.
When the player using the stall team is better at predicting than the one using the CBer.
When the person using the stall team realizes that it's okay to stop setting spikes for a while because Rhyperior is using Skarmory as a free switch-in.
When the Choice Bander is Metagross.
I'm trying to find out when a stall team doesn't beat a CBer. I'm much more scared of something with Swords Dance or Taunt than against something that's stuck using one move.
One thing really bugs me about the term 'stall' in general is that stalling doesn't do anything except waste time. 'Defensive' or 'passive' would be a far more correct term as its a style of play and that is what stalling is about.
With that said stall team should at least have 1 Disable user. I cannot stress how easily it can force switches in numerous scenario's especially where some pokemon only carry one move specifically for a type of coverage.
For one thing its the worst possible scenario for a choice item user without violating the sleep clause so you can save that sleep attack for something more threatening.
The choice of Disable users is quite vast as well and it does bypass substitutes to boot.
With that said stall team should at least have 1 Disable user. I cannot stress how easily it can force switches in numerous scenario's especially where some pokemon only carry one move specifically for a type of coverage.
For one thing its the worst possible scenario for a choice item user without violating the sleep clause so you can save that sleep attack for something more threatening.
The choice of Disable users is quite vast as well and it does bypass substitutes to boot.
If your going to bother using Taunt against a DDdos while risking being STAB Waterfall attack you may as well just Stone Edge the thing. But then again it won't kill it with Intimidate in effect unless you run Adamant Aerodactyl but if your running a defensive Aerodactyl then you wouldn't be running +atk, you'd be running +spd or +def/+s.def.
I meant if Gyarados were to try and switch in to Taunt. Aerodactyl has no business switching in to DDdos, but if it is the other way round it will have a difficult time killing it before running out of PP with Waterfall/Stone Edge, assuming it is a standard bulky version.
Well, most of the "stalling" set people are posting here are pretty worthless. Stuff like TSS/SR can actually bring teams down while you waste time with Subbing and Protecting and switching.
Yeah, Disable is really underrated (unconsidered, really), especially now considering that it's previous 55% accuracy has been beefed up to 80%. Disabling stuff like Blissey's Softboiled or Skarmory's Roost is pretty cool too.
Sandstream + Cradily = Uber Stallage.
Only from a special perspective. Plus you have to switch in from Ttar/Hippowdon, the former of which has mainly physical counters, and Cradily simply cannot take the strongest physical hits anymore.
Disable, eh? Maybe I should rework my Hypno in training... Choice Scarf + Trick + Disable + Thunder Wave... hm, that's not bad.
I know from personal experiance (even though I like cradily)
Icebeam + (Cladily + Sandstorm) = Dead poke.
Could somebody calculate that for me? It should be able to shrug it off with Recover. . .
With 516 Sp. Def and 376 HP, even Choice Specs Glaceon's Ice Beam fails by some margin. 74% max.
Trick + Disable sounds really cool, actually.
Spiritomb is easily shut down with Taunt, unless you can taunt them first.
I think one of the main reason fewer older stallers are being seen is the simple fact that most of the new pokemon, and some older ones, are able to attack more. I mean, when you get a new game, do you go back to playing your old game until you have fully tested the new one? I know I don't.
I love using stallers, and will continue to enjoy it. And once I am finished testing attack options, I will probably dedicate myself to perfecting a stall team. But, in the mean time people, I think, will continue to use newer ones.
(And to a post I don't remember, People will still Use Milo and the such. it's just, when you can hardcore sweep with Rhyperior or Electivire, do you really think about Milos amazing tank abilities?)
I love using stallers, and will continue to enjoy it. And once I am finished testing attack options, I will probably dedicate myself to perfecting a stall team. But, in the mean time people, I think, will continue to use newer ones.
(And to a post I don't remember, People will still Use Milo and the such. it's just, when you can hardcore sweep with Rhyperior or Electivire, do you really think about Milos amazing tank abilities?)
While true, such comments are somewhat redundant considering how many uses of Taunt I've seen in RMTs. Not even Gyarados seems to run it these days.
Really? Never noticed. I ought to pay more attention to RMTs. The only reason I can think of for this is that Gyarados has so many attacking options now, and thus people are 'easily seduced by its power', therefore they ignore the potentially matchwinning Taunt.
I'm going to have to agree with nomargu46 on resistances. What made the D/P metagame so offensive was not the damage calculations; many experienced Smogoners, as well as MetalKid's calculator, have shown that that the calculations have only changed by a few points. Most of the new attacks could be stalled out if they existed in Advance. Rather, the change came from the physical/special split. it effectively nullified many of the resistances that the tanks of Advance employed. No longer can something be an effective tank just by defending against special defense, or defense: It must stand guard on both sides of the offensive spectrum in order to have switch wars end in your favor. Blissey is still good because its high HP allows to survive weak physical hits relatively well, as well as special hits, on a good day. Ryperior has good defense, and in Sandstorm, good special defense. I think we're also starting to see a domino effect: because the best tanks in the game are having a hard time, people are maximizing their offensive potential to maintain their usefulness (i.e. the increased popularity of Calm Mind and Boltbeam on Blissey). As a result, the few tanks there are have to face more attacks and less stalling on opposing teams. The stronger attacks and more plentiful offensive items are a big issue too, be resistances are what make stalling possible.
"It must stand guard on both sides of the offensive spectrum in order to have switch wars end in your favor."
It's not that... pokemon are still mainly special or physical. The difference is that you can't rely on your type to save you from physical/special threats... like Electrivire, who is a physical threat, cannot be stopped by Skarmory because Skarmory is weak to Electric (which wouldn't have been a problem in Advance, where he had no Physical weaknesses)
It's not that... pokemon are still mainly special or physical. The difference is that you can't rely on your type to save you from physical/special threats... like Electrivire, who is a physical threat, cannot be stopped by Skarmory because Skarmory is weak to Electric (which wouldn't have been a problem in Advance, where he had no Physical weaknesses)
Well, I'd say two things:
1. Bronzong is, for lack of a better word, one of the top 20 worst pokemon of all time for appearance. That being said, it is a shitwrecker of a staller, especially with some trick roomage.
2. Stalling MUST be dead, mostly. As has been said, over and over on the forums, This generation is more offensive than ever. No team can cover everything well enough to be prepared for everything. How can you defend when there's always or almost always counter? Hell, even if you have a great team set up for the stall, lose one link in the chain and your defensive liabilities, apparently, start to pile up.
Is there any way to truely bring back stalling to its former grace, seen in GSC? I doubt it.
Thanks for the discussion, guys.
1. Bronzong is, for lack of a better word, one of the top 20 worst pokemon of all time for appearance. That being said, it is a shitwrecker of a staller, especially with some trick roomage.
2. Stalling MUST be dead, mostly. As has been said, over and over on the forums, This generation is more offensive than ever. No team can cover everything well enough to be prepared for everything. How can you defend when there's always or almost always counter? Hell, even if you have a great team set up for the stall, lose one link in the chain and your defensive liabilities, apparently, start to pile up.
Is there any way to truely bring back stalling to its former grace, seen in GSC? I doubt it.
Thanks for the discussion, guys.
Stalling will be brought back to its former infamy. A physical evolution of Chansey will come up from the infernal regions of the universe to cackle at any physical threats in Pokemon Zirconia and Pyrite. . .
Until that horrible day, use a synergy of Blissey, Bronzong/Skarmory, Dusknoir, and Vaporeon (for Wish passing) to fulfill your stalling needs.
How is Bronzong going to "stall" out anything? Resttalk?
If you haven't noticed, a lot of what's been said on the forums is hypothetical bullshit spouted off by people who don't know what they're talking about. The newer battlers just follow suit. Granted, the metagame IS more offensive, but the status of stalling teams has yet to really be discovered. I wonder how many actual stalling teams have been bred, EV trained, and actually tested out.
But it works the other way too. If an attacker on your team that has the power to punch a hole through your opponent's defenses gets burned or paralyzed or put to sleep, you're suddenly without the ability to outdamage the other team, whose Toxics and Sandstream and Stealth Rocks will overcome you.
If you want to stall with Bronzong, I suppose the Block set mentioned in the Analyses could work (then again, I've never tried it; heck, I don't even have a Bronzong yet)
You're right about the hypothetical stuff. I suggest that people read the DP warstories if they think defensive play is completely dead.