I guess you have a point. Maybe it's too soon for me to think that Starmie has a 50/50 chance to drop. Although for the time bein, Aegislash is everywhere, so that's quite the pressure. But, I think that the hype will eventually wear off and that Aegis won't be used that often (kinda like Condeldurr in Gen 5), so that won't be that much of a burden. Also, completely forgot about Analytic. It works if the opponent switches out, right? That's tough. Aaaand it can still kill a MGengar on the switch, or outspeed with a Scarf, eh?
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Pokémon Starmie
- Thread starter DarklingNinja
- Start date
- Status
When the metagame around Starmie changes, so must its tactics. With Greninja/Mega Gengar running rampant the quick fix for Starmie is taking out the LO and giving it the scarf treatment. This isn't that huge of a loss considering its base special attack can hit hard regardless. OHKO MGengar and with Greninja getting more Protein (lol) in its diet, Starmies attacks may hit as neutral damage
With Hydro Pump getting kinda nerfed and not perfect accuracy.....just give it Scald and have that 30% chance to half the opponents attack with 1/8 damage every turn. Keep Analytic with the scarf because it will still apply when the opponent switches.
And I will say this as much as it needs to be said....defog is all talk, and little literal, actual use. Maybe its because it removes all hazards, or that it ruins the 4 move dynamic that many defog capable pokemon have previously established.
Starmie wasn't nerfed, merely nobody has offered how to adapt it to the current metagame.
With Hydro Pump getting kinda nerfed and not perfect accuracy.....just give it Scald and have that 30% chance to half the opponents attack with 1/8 damage every turn. Keep Analytic with the scarf because it will still apply when the opponent switches.
And I will say this as much as it needs to be said....defog is all talk, and little literal, actual use. Maybe its because it removes all hazards, or that it ruins the 4 move dynamic that many defog capable pokemon have previously established.
Starmie wasn't nerfed, merely nobody has offered how to adapt it to the current metagame.
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Just saying the idea of a scarf starmie came from the heavy usage of speedy/weak pokemon like Greninja and Mega Gengar.
And with the scarf set on file here, id take out trick and replace with rapid spin or Psyshock, depending on your needs.
So I have been reading all the comments and looking at all the ideas on this thread. I think I have come up with a move set that may help Starmie Adapt to the new shift in gen VI, I call this move set BaitMie.
BaitMie
Item: Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Rapid Spin
- Trick / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
- Psyshock
At first look many would glide right over this move set and think it makes no sense. Before you do that let me explain. The basic Premise of this set is to force people to switch out their current pokemon and use Starmie to bait out walls and counters that would usually counter Starmie. With the heavily defense oriented shift this gen has taken and all the ghost pokemon this is not that hard to do.
Lets start off with Analytic (Raises the power of all moves by 30% if the wielder moves last). Most know of Starmie Speed and power, and start off by switching out their current pokemon. T-tar would get rip up from a 30%-40% boosted Hydro Pump even after the Nerf, then Starmie would get to hit T-tar first again for a double Hydro Pump. Have yet to do the damage calcs but I would believe this would take out the non-spD oriented T-tars. Hydro Pump Also severely damages other pursuit uses such as Scizor, and a Scizor that is not specialized in SpD will be 2HKO'd in most cases by this. Aegislash is Also servely Damaged by A 30%-40% Boosted Hydro Pump.
Psyshock is also a nice move to hit Ghost Types as well as the SpD walls. Mega-Gar would take heavy damage and I am pretty sure OHKO in most cases from a 30%-40% boosted Psyshock. Even if it didn't this brings me to the choice scarf possibility over life orb.
Choice Scarf, this would allow Starmie to do 2 very nice things. One it would allow it to out speed threats that are faster than it that attempted to switch into it thinking they could take a hit then out speed it for an easy kill. Mega-Aero, Jolteon, Mega-Gar, Greninja all fall into this category. The thing is, none of them can survive a 30% boosted hydro pump followed by a second hydro pump. Jolteon and Gengar cannot even withstand the double Psyshock. You have 4 of Starmie's counters taken care of right there. That leads me to trick, Special Walls and walls are running around every where and the thing is they all would be rendered almost useless with a choice scarf. With all the Walls running around it in this gen it should not be hard to find a great candidate to send choice scarf over to in exchange for some tasty leftovers. Now you have neutered an opponents wall that would have checked or countered Starmie and made Starmie more durable. If yoru using Life orb thunderbolt or ice beam will do you more good then trick.
Rapid Spin, why not Rapid spin? with all the defense oriented teams relying on passive damage having a nice spinner is awesome. Which makes it even easier to bait out those annoying spin blockers and rip into them with an analytic boosted attack.
Basically this set makes it so there is no guaranteed way for your opponent to make a correct choice on how to deal with your Starmie. Do they switch to a faster sweeper? but if its faster because of choice scarf the sweeper may not survive the boosted attacks followed by another hit. If I try to pursuit trap it with a pursuit trapper, can the pursuit trapper survive a double hit? Do I switch to a spin blocker? but my spin blocker could get ripped apart by a boosted psyshock or hydro pump. Do I send out my wall? or is starmie going to trick it and make it useless for the rest of the game? The only sure fire way to defend against this set is a sucker punch. So if your team doesn't have a sucker puncher this move set is going to cost you a lot to go up against.
Putting your opponent in this kind of position where they have no clue what the right move to make is, and just have to guess basically is just what any player strides for. This set allows Starmie to use the defensive oriented shift to its advantage rather then being a disadvantage for it.
I have yet to do any testing on this set, feed back and testing would be greatly appreciated.
BaitMie
Item: Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Rapid Spin
- Trick / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
- Psyshock
At first look many would glide right over this move set and think it makes no sense. Before you do that let me explain. The basic Premise of this set is to force people to switch out their current pokemon and use Starmie to bait out walls and counters that would usually counter Starmie. With the heavily defense oriented shift this gen has taken and all the ghost pokemon this is not that hard to do.
Lets start off with Analytic (Raises the power of all moves by 30% if the wielder moves last). Most know of Starmie Speed and power, and start off by switching out their current pokemon. T-tar would get rip up from a 30%-40% boosted Hydro Pump even after the Nerf, then Starmie would get to hit T-tar first again for a double Hydro Pump. Have yet to do the damage calcs but I would believe this would take out the non-spD oriented T-tars. Hydro Pump Also severely damages other pursuit uses such as Scizor, and a Scizor that is not specialized in SpD will be 2HKO'd in most cases by this. Aegislash is Also servely Damaged by A 30%-40% Boosted Hydro Pump.
Psyshock is also a nice move to hit Ghost Types as well as the SpD walls. Mega-Gar would take heavy damage and I am pretty sure OHKO in most cases from a 30%-40% boosted Psyshock. Even if it didn't this brings me to the choice scarf possibility over life orb.
Choice Scarf, this would allow Starmie to do 2 very nice things. One it would allow it to out speed threats that are faster than it that attempted to switch into it thinking they could take a hit then out speed it for an easy kill. Mega-Aero, Jolteon, Mega-Gar, Greninja all fall into this category. The thing is, none of them can survive a 30% boosted hydro pump followed by a second hydro pump. Jolteon and Gengar cannot even withstand the double Psyshock. You have 4 of Starmie's counters taken care of right there. That leads me to trick, Special Walls and walls are running around every where and the thing is they all would be rendered almost useless with a choice scarf. With all the Walls running around it in this gen it should not be hard to find a great candidate to send choice scarf over to in exchange for some tasty leftovers. Now you have neutered an opponents wall that would have checked or countered Starmie and made Starmie more durable. If yoru using Life orb thunderbolt or ice beam will do you more good then trick.
Rapid Spin, why not Rapid spin? with all the defense oriented teams relying on passive damage having a nice spinner is awesome. Which makes it even easier to bait out those annoying spin blockers and rip into them with an analytic boosted attack.
Basically this set makes it so there is no guaranteed way for your opponent to make a correct choice on how to deal with your Starmie. Do they switch to a faster sweeper? but if its faster because of choice scarf the sweeper may not survive the boosted attacks followed by another hit. If I try to pursuit trap it with a pursuit trapper, can the pursuit trapper survive a double hit? Do I switch to a spin blocker? but my spin blocker could get ripped apart by a boosted psyshock or hydro pump. Do I send out my wall? or is starmie going to trick it and make it useless for the rest of the game? The only sure fire way to defend against this set is a sucker punch. So if your team doesn't have a sucker puncher this move set is going to cost you a lot to go up against.
Putting your opponent in this kind of position where they have no clue what the right move to make is, and just have to guess basically is just what any player strides for. This set allows Starmie to use the defensive oriented shift to its advantage rather then being a disadvantage for it.
I have yet to do any testing on this set, feed back and testing would be greatly appreciated.
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Something worth noting: Starmie survives Brave Bird from Talonflame if it's not Banded or +2. Greninja is OHKOd no matter what (though I sometimes see it sashed). That's probably the biggest advantage Starmie has. No Tbolt for Greninja is a slight advantage, as well, I think. But yeah I don't see people running Starmie over Greninja unless they need a spinner. The set above with Trick is also pretty interesting
252+ Atk (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 180-213 (68.96 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 180-213 (68.96 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Starmie having pretty decent bulk, would any HP investment be worth it on the aggressive set DarklingNinja posted above? Just trying to take advantage of Starmie surviving after life orb recoil, particularly against some priority threats which are rampant at the moment.
Throughout this thread though, one of people's major concerns for Starmie is Tyranitar. In fact, Tyranitar (and it's pursuit) was probably the sole reason why Scarf Latios/Latias/Starmie never got popular-- because if you were using Scarf against a team with Tyranitar it was almost like you were starting the match 6 v. 5. Starmie needed LO to do any real damage to Tyranitar. Now that Tyranitar has AV or Mega Evolution to enhance its special bulk even more, it's even more important for Starmie to do as much damage as possible. This is an even bigger problem when Tyranitar is everywhere, thanks to it being a major check to many of the game's truly top threats and the bulky trapping sets being extremely successful (even with min investment in ATK, it can do 70%+ to a fleeing Greninja or Talonflame with Pursuit, and they do piddly damage in return).
I'm still not sure that is correct, but in reference to the issue of Tyranitar trapping Starmie:
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 164-195 (40.59 - 48.26%)
These are the stats for the maximum Sp. D Tyranitar trapping setup, which still manages to OHKO Starmie after Life Orb recoil.
There is a small silver lining - Tyranitar will not be running leftovers in this scenario, and since a team is including Starmie I must also assume that Stealth Rock is in play, as at that point why not just go for a defogger.
If Tyranitar can be baited into taking stealth rock damage once prior before Starmie engages him (perhaps bluffing a rapid spin and immediately switching out), then if attempting to switch into an Analytic Hydro Pump assuming minimum damage rolls and 2 instances of Stealth Rock damage = ~97%
I'm not quite sure how to calculate the chance to 2HKO after the stealth rock damgage, but it at least exists.
Non AV Tyrantiar is always 2HKO'd by Analytic Hydro Pump + Hydro Pump after stealth rock, and non Sp. D natured AV tyranitar (with still max Sp D and HP EVs) have a chance of being 2HKO'd by Analytic Hydro Pump + Hydro Pump after stealh rock. The latter is a small %, but it does exist.
I can't comment on how practical any of this is, so form your own opinions.
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Unless Tyranitar's swapping in. Say, to tank a hit with AV+Sand Stream and then Pursuit trap it. Which is a surprisingly, but very viable strategy.
Without Analytic, Starmie isn't even certain to 3HKO AV Tyranitar with LO Hydro Pump, while AV Tyranitar's Pursuit is a certain OHKO on the switch after LO recoil.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 164-195 (40.59 - 48.26%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 127-151 (31.43 - 37.37%) -- 82.96% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 254-302 (97.31 - 115.7%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
Upon more studying of Starmie I noticed he had access to Dazzling Gleam. For a specs set, this should be considered. Disregard it's shit base power, as a fairy offensive move, this can help manhandle certain Pokemon like Greninja if it gets the right moment.
Starmie this gen is all about timing rather than "chuck him out and have him hit with stuff."
Starmie this gen is all about timing rather than "chuck him out and have him hit with stuff."
Cool, just confirms that I wasn't totally off base there, haha.
I gave the first Hydro Pump an Analytic boost for a Tyranitar switching in to Starmie, and then based subsequent 2HKO calculations on the second Hydro Pump being not Analytic boosted. I apologize if this was not clear enough from my previous post.
I wonder if Sub Split starmie can be viable in this meta
Starmie @ Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Substitute
Pain Split
Thunderbolt/Hydro Pump/ HP Fire
Ice Beam/Hydro Pump/ HP Fire/Dazzling Gleam/Psyshock (You Get the point)
Kinda like Gengar....Starmie can still threaten alot of things (Some Gengar can't), so getting a sub up shouldn't be too much of a problem, you can then hammer things with the coverage moves of choice and Pain Split the damage off, while not phenomenal anymore, 115 speed is still decent, So it should still work
Starmie @ Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Substitute
Pain Split
Thunderbolt/Hydro Pump/ HP Fire
Ice Beam/Hydro Pump/ HP Fire/Dazzling Gleam/Psyshock (You Get the point)
Kinda like Gengar....Starmie can still threaten alot of things (Some Gengar can't), so getting a sub up shouldn't be too much of a problem, you can then hammer things with the coverage moves of choice and Pain Split the damage off, while not phenomenal anymore, 115 speed is still decent, So it should still work
I doubt this will be any good, honestly. Sub Split Gengar was never all that great of a set, but it had a niche of being able to stay in on Blissey/Chansey/Snorlax and wearing them down. The blobs have practically been phased out. With the new gen, Gengar just prefers Sub+3 attacks or Sub + Disable now that Ghost is so powerful offensively. Starmie with 3 attacks and recovery/rapid spin, life orb and analytic is really the only thing it has over the competition.
I believe unless Starmie gets some magic set that we're not seeing, it'll probably drop. It's still a great pokemon, but it has competition now. I think Starmie would fit in very well in UU.
i would think the starmie vs tyranitar matchup is just as bad for tyranitar as it is for starmie. regardless tyranitar still has to switch into an attack or simply predict starmie and be in without getting 2hko by starmie otherwise it get hit hard in or out of sand.
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 198-234 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
of course tyranitar is bulky in sand:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 205-244 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HK0
out of sand:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar: 307-367 (75.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
no investment:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
No investment in SpDef also out of sand and rocks:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
starmie 2hko tyranitar in and out of sand regardless of investment while tyranitar cannot ohko starmie (with pursuit)but only crippling it in return but this situation will force tyranitar to switch if you predict correctly but of course this is not considering a bluffed pursuit into a crunch but either way any form of tyranitar that cant outspeed starmie is taking a hard hit and most likely getting revenged afterwards
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 198-234 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
of course tyranitar is bulky in sand:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 205-244 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HK0
out of sand:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar: 307-367 (75.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
no investment:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
No investment in SpDef also out of sand and rocks:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
starmie 2hko tyranitar in and out of sand regardless of investment while tyranitar cannot ohko starmie (with pursuit)but only crippling it in return but this situation will force tyranitar to switch if you predict correctly but of course this is not considering a bluffed pursuit into a crunch but either way any form of tyranitar that cant outspeed starmie is taking a hard hit and most likely getting revenged afterwards
Yeah, the Tyranitar/Starmie matchup has always been 50/50. Here's assault vest, if anyone's interested:
Assault Vest Tyranitar in sand with Sassy:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 135-164 (33.41 - 40.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Assault Vest Tyranitar in sand with Adamant:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 151-179 (37.37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
probably 50/50 in predictions other than that tyranitar must crunch to beat starmie.
im sure thats in sand of course tyranitar is limited without infinite sand and in my opinion loses potential:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO
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I'm pretty new to competitive battling, but I came up with a fun set for Starmie that I've found pretty successful in my wifi battles. Not sure how viable it'll be once the dust settles on the X/Y metagame, but it's been pretty reliable for me so far. I'd be interested to hear you all's take on it. I call it...
ComeAtMie Bro
Item: Weakness Policy
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Moves
- Scald
- Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Rapid Spin / Substitute
- Recover
- Cosmic Power / Rapid Spin / Substitute
Starmie is actually a surprisingly good user of Weakness Policy. Because it has a number of common weaknesses, it's fairly easy to bait your opponent into hitting you with a super-effective attack.
With just one Cosmic Power buff, Starmie can eat at least one super-effective hit from most of the heaviest hitters in the meta-game. And with its blistering speed, Starmie is pretty much guaranteed to get at least one Cosmic Power off.
Scald adds to Starmie's survivability - if the burn procs against a physical attacker, Starmie becomes even harder to bring down.
Basically, this starts off as a stall set. You switch into something that Starmie either resists or takes neutral damage from (preferably a physical attacker), use Cosmic Power to soften the next blow, then Scald until your opponent gets burned. If and when a burn procs, you can use Cosmic Power to boost your defenses still higher, do more damage with your attack moves, and/or recover off damage.
The fun begins when your opponents switches in a counter. After Starmie eats a super effective hit from its unsuspecting opponent, its power rockets up and it suddenly transforms from a bulky stall into a fairly dangerous bulky sweeper. Usually, this is more than enough to to OHKO or 2HKO whatever your opponent has brought in to counter you, and then you can proceed to punch a hole through the rest of his team.
The best part is, Weakness Policy activation outprioritizes Knock Off and Thief, so if your opponent comes after Starmie with either of those moves, he's in for a surprise!
Scald and Recovery are mandatory for the set. Cosmic Power is near-mandatory, but you can run Rapid Spin or Substitute if Starmie has dual screen support. In my team I have a dual screen setter, so I run Rapid Spin to give Starmie added utility even when I'm not trying to set up a sweep.
The second move is whatever coverage you need. I prefer Psyshock, as that allows Starmie to be a fairly effective wallbreaker after its Weakness Policy procs. You can also take Rapid Spin or Substitute in that slot, if you want one of those in addition to Cosmic Power. Obviously, if you do that you'll run the risk of getting completely walled by a Dry Skin / Water Absorb pokemon like Jellicent or Vaporeon.
Once this Starmie gets going it can be pretty hard to take down. It resists many of the most common priority moves (though Shadow Sneak still smarts) and can Recover off any hits it takes. And because of Natural Cure, if your opponent tries to force you out with Toxic while you're setting up, you can just switch out and try again later. (Though once Analytic becomes available, that might be viable too, as it will discourage your opponent from trying to paralyze you and power you up even further.) Phazers and critical hits are probably the biggest threat. But even if you do get phazed out after the Weakness Policy procs, this Starmie can still be useful to the team as a rapid spinner or stall.
ComeAtMie Bro
Item: Weakness Policy
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Moves
- Scald
- Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Rapid Spin / Substitute
- Recover
- Cosmic Power / Rapid Spin / Substitute
Starmie is actually a surprisingly good user of Weakness Policy. Because it has a number of common weaknesses, it's fairly easy to bait your opponent into hitting you with a super-effective attack.
With just one Cosmic Power buff, Starmie can eat at least one super-effective hit from most of the heaviest hitters in the meta-game. And with its blistering speed, Starmie is pretty much guaranteed to get at least one Cosmic Power off.
Scald adds to Starmie's survivability - if the burn procs against a physical attacker, Starmie becomes even harder to bring down.
Basically, this starts off as a stall set. You switch into something that Starmie either resists or takes neutral damage from (preferably a physical attacker), use Cosmic Power to soften the next blow, then Scald until your opponent gets burned. If and when a burn procs, you can use Cosmic Power to boost your defenses still higher, do more damage with your attack moves, and/or recover off damage.
The fun begins when your opponents switches in a counter. After Starmie eats a super effective hit from its unsuspecting opponent, its power rockets up and it suddenly transforms from a bulky stall into a fairly dangerous bulky sweeper. Usually, this is more than enough to to OHKO or 2HKO whatever your opponent has brought in to counter you, and then you can proceed to punch a hole through the rest of his team.
The best part is, Weakness Policy activation outprioritizes Knock Off and Thief, so if your opponent comes after Starmie with either of those moves, he's in for a surprise!
Scald and Recovery are mandatory for the set. Cosmic Power is near-mandatory, but you can run Rapid Spin or Substitute if Starmie has dual screen support. In my team I have a dual screen setter, so I run Rapid Spin to give Starmie added utility even when I'm not trying to set up a sweep.
The second move is whatever coverage you need. I prefer Psyshock, as that allows Starmie to be a fairly effective wallbreaker after its Weakness Policy procs. You can also take Rapid Spin or Substitute in that slot, if you want one of those in addition to Cosmic Power. Obviously, if you do that you'll run the risk of getting completely walled by a Dry Skin / Water Absorb pokemon like Jellicent or Vaporeon.
Once this Starmie gets going it can be pretty hard to take down. It resists many of the most common priority moves (though Shadow Sneak still smarts) and can Recover off any hits it takes. And because of Natural Cure, if your opponent tries to force you out with Toxic while you're setting up, you can just switch out and try again later. (Though once Analytic becomes available, that might be viable too, as it will discourage your opponent from trying to paralyze you and power you up even further.) Phazers and critical hits are probably the biggest threat. But even if you do get phazed out after the Weakness Policy procs, this Starmie can still be useful to the team as a rapid spinner or stall.
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This is very interesting. I ran some calcs with threats to see how things work with your spread.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 252 HP / 28 Def Starmie: 120-144 (37 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 252 HP / 28 Def Starmie: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. +1 252 HP / 28 Def Starmie: 206-246 (63.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Scizor U-turn vs. +1 252 HP / 28 Def Starmie: 186-222 (57.4 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. +1 252 HP / 28 Def Starmie: 278-330 (85.8 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. +1 252 HP / 28 Def Starmie: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Naturally, Starmie can't take everything. Throw more boosts on any of these guys, and it can be an easy OHKO without multiple Cosmic Powers. But Starmie can 2HKO these guys back, and Scald always runs the threat of debilitating burn here.
Of course, Starmie can't really depend to sweep the team as it cannot cover every relevant threat; if it runs Psyshock, Ferrothorn and (when Pokebank comes) Celebi walls it, even with +2. Running Ice Beam instead of Psyshock will, as you said, cause Starmie to be walled by Bulky Waters. Dropping Recover damages the core of this set. Nevertheless, I commend you for coming up with a pretty creative sweeper.
I'm new at this sorta thing and this may not matter, but I thought that Starmie was too fast for Analytic to ever activate.
This probably belongs more in the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread, but Analytic is for hitting things on the switch. Personally I think it's pretty niche, but the power boost is significant with good prediction.
Against something like Ferrothorn it can be a bit of a luckfest. If you manage to burn him with Scald, it becomes a fairly simple matter of just stalling him out with Recover. On the other hand, if he manages to critical you with Power Whip at any point, he'll OHKO you through Cosmic Powers, screens, and burns. I've had that happen once or twice and it's frustrating every time.
An Adamant Aegislash-Blade (and it will be blade form that gets hit if he's trying to Shadow Sneak you to death) has about a 50/50 chance of getting OHKO'd by +2 Scald. If it attempts a Sword Dance first (and gets an extra turn in the shield form), Starmie's Scald had a sure KO on him when he opens up. It's best move would probably be to Swords Dance twice, then Shadow Sneak on the third turn for the OHKO. But again, it's a little bit of a luckfest -- if a burn procs on either of the first two scalds, Aegislash is toast, but if it doesn't then he'll KO you. At the end of the day, as long as Starmie gets a Cosmic Power off on the switch, there's a pretty good chance that it'll be able to KO Aegislash. Aegi needs either a crit or not to get burned to win.
+2 4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 121-144 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After the Weakness Policy activates, my Starmie set hits harder than a fully invested Jolly Choice Specs variant, so it's more than capable of doing some serious damage even through resists once it gets going. And when if it gets walled, with a little luck you can out-stall your opponent with a Scald burn and Recover. It's a pretty neat little bulky sweeper.
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I don't understand why you say that the weather nerf hurt this thing so much. I understand that 100% accurate thunder is good, but it doesn't need that. It is still a fast, strong rapid spinner. plus it's defences aren't as bad as people put them off to be. It is still a good choicer, and it also has access to offensive options and supportive options. Remember that when pokebank comes out, it can use trick, which is such a pain if used correctly.
This thing still has a spot in OU.
This thing still has a spot in OU.
Starmie was so amazing because it was both a water type and has access to thunder and psychock. It had so much to go with, and this basically made it an amazing rain abuser. It can't do that anymore with the nerf Now, Greninja is a thing, and it gets stab on all its moves, as well as momentum. Excadrill is an amazing spinner and checks Rotom-W whereas starmie has no chance. Not only all this, but defog is a widespread move, and starmie isn't the only choice for rapid spin. On top of that, the metagame has made a shift from hyper offense to bulky offense, which kinda undermines starmie's speed.
Basically Starmie is competing with things that either have more immediate power (greninja), are in general better rapid spinners (excadrill) or as a special mixed water attacker (keldeo).
I don't agree with this. Greninja is even more frail than Starmie is, and having STAB everything is a double-edged sword which can easily get it killed as well. Especially when it turns into an Ice Type if it is using Ice Beam (who isn't going to use Ice Beam?) Have fun with four major weaknesses, all of which are common on attacking pokes. All Greninja has going for it is better speed than Starmie and slightly higher SpA. Starmie still has a HUGE movepool, and personally, I LOVE Psyshock comboed with Life Orb on Starime. Good neutral coverage that HAMMERS all the Poison Types roaming around (one-shot a MegaSaur with that beauty after SR.) Starmie still out-speeds Gengar, and still is one of the fastest Rapid Spinners. It will still be viable in OU, IMO, even with a Rain Nerf.
Yeah, what a significant boost in defenses...
Starmie Base stats: 60/75/85/100/85/115
Greninja Base stats: 72/95/67/103/71/122
Starmie is psychic type, which is not good in the metagame. Aegislash, Tyranitar, Scizor, Genesect (post-pokebank) and Rotom-A are all extremely common pokemon that starmie gets flat out countered by. Greninja can at LEAST u-turn out.
Starmie just BARELY takes a Brave Bird from Talonflame:
252 Atk Life Orb Swellow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 220-259 (84.29 - 99.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (75% chance of OHKO if Stealth Rocks are up)
Just because you have protean doesn't mean you can't make intelligent plays, and with 122 speed, what can really hit you with these attacks other than scarfs and priority? Greninja's Ice Beam OHKO's Dragonite through multiscale. Starmie cannot do this.
So does Greninja. It gets Grass Knot, U-turn, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Spikes, Hydro Pump, Toxic Spikes, and can go physical as well. Keep in mind that these are all STAB.
Yes, Starmie will have this niche, but I don't think that's enough to stay relevant in OU. It wasn't so much that rain was nerfed, moreso that the metagame around it changed. Starmie's still a pretty good pokemon, but I have difficulty justifying its spot on my team when Greninja is a better attacker, and Excadrill is a better spinner in general.
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