Starter Pokemon in Little Cup

[sparktrain]

Starter Pokemon in Little Cup​

Historically, the starter pokemon were never outstanding in LC due to them being limited to Overgrow, Blaze, and Torrent. In XY, this has changed for many of the starters, who now have access to their hidden abilities. Several starters benefit immensely from this. For example, the new Speed Boost Torchic is an excellent Baton Passer, who is able to pass attack boosts from Swords Dance or Hone Claws along with the speed boosts. Froakie gets the new Protean ability, which essentially provides a 1.5x STAB boost to all of his attacking moves, as well as changing his type. Bulbasaur and and Charmander get Chlorophyll and Solar Power respectively, making them much more threatening in the sun.

Torchic

Type: Fire
45 HP / 60 Atk / 40 Def / 70 SAtk / 50 SpD / 45 Spe
Abilities: Blaze (lol), Speed Boost​

Notable Moves

Flamethrower
Fire Blast
Flame Charge
Heat Wave
Shadow Claw
Night Slash
Rock Slide
Return
Hidden Power
Will-O-Wisp
Toxic
Feather Dance
Protect
Substitute
Baton Pass
Hone Claws
Swords Dance
Curse
Agility

Overview

Torchic got A LOT better this generation for one reason: Speed Boost is now LC legal! Running a set consisting of Protect, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, and a filler move will be Torchic’s flagship set this generation. Its mediocre bulk can be somewhat mitigated by Berry Juice/Eviolite, allowing it a better chance of pulling off a Baton Pass and setting up one of its partners. It also has the option of using the speed boosts for itself, but its offenses are a bit lacking, and it has no way to boost its Special Attack. Torchic also has an issue with phazing and Taunt, which is an issue shared by other Baton Passers. Nonetheless, Torchic has secured its place as one of the premier Baton Pass users in LC.


Movesets

Baton Pass

Torchic @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spd
Bold Nature
- Protect
- Swords Dance / Curse / Hone Claws
- Baton Pass
- Fire Blast / Substitute

Torchic does well with a physically bulky set, since this allows it to stay in on physical opponents and grab a boost before it passes to a partner. Protect guarantees that it gets at least one boost. Torchic can then choose from a variety of boosting options. Swords Dance allows it to pass the largest attack boosts. Curse can be use to pass both Attack and Defense boosts, with the speed drop being nullified by Speed Boost. Fire Blast is Torchic's most powerful attacking option, since its physical movepool isn't that great. Substitute is also an option to further support its team mates, but this leaves Torchic even more susceptible to Taunt.

Offensive

Torchic @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Spd / 36 SDef / 200 SAtk / 36 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
- Protect / Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Baton Pass

This set takes a more offensive route and allows Torchic to effectively use its Speed Boosts on its own. After one Speed Boost, Torchic hits 21 speed, enough to outpace the unboosted metagame. Fire Blast is Torchic’s most reliable STAB option, backed by its 17 SpA and Life Orb. HP Grass provides optimum coverage, hitting Water and Rock types. If Torchic ever finds itself in an unfavorable situation, it can still Baton Pass out to a team mate who would be able to better utilize the boosts.

Torchic could also try a physical attacking set, but its generally weaker since its only STAB move is the weak and redundant Flame Charge.

Froakie

Type: Water
41 HP / 56 Att / 41 Def / 62 SAtk / 44 SDef / 71 Spd
Abilities: Torrent, Protean​

Notable Moves

Hydro Pump
Surf
Scald
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Hidden Power
Waterfall
Rock Slide
Return
Acrobatics
U-turn
Power-Up-Punch
Quick Attack
Thief
Toxic Spikes
Taunt
Substitute
Toxic
Rain Dance

Overview

Froakie is the only Pokemon in LC with Protean. It has respectable 56/62 offenses and a great 71 base speed, letting it hit 17 Spd with a positive nature and 188 EVs. This lets it outspeed various Pokemon such as Vullaby, Dwebble, and unboosted Swirlix.

It naturally functions as a good special attacker due to its decent special movepool and Protean. Hydro Pump will be the main attacking move in most cases due to its high base power and great all around coverage. Ice Beam and Hidden Power provide good coverage alongside Hydro Pump, and even gain pseudo-STAB courtesy of Protean. U-turn will also see usage on most sets, due to its excellent utility.

Even though Froakie is seemingly one-dimensional at first, it can run some other interesting options. It can run a pure physical boosting set with Power-Up-Punch, or a supporting set with options such as Toxic Spikes and Taunt.

Froakie’s main issue lies in its frailty. It can be mitigated to an extent with investment and Eviolite/Berry Juice, but if it’s not invested it can find itself being outsped and KO’d by mons like Gastly, Taillow, and Elekid. It also struggles against priority; it’s only priority move is Quick Attack, and moves such as Timburr’s Mach Punch can put a severe dent in it.


Movesets

All-Out Special Attacker

Froakie @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Level: 5
EVs: 28 HP / 76 Atk / 28 Def / 184 SAtk / 188 Spd
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- U-turn

With the listed EV spread, Froakie reaches 13 Att and 15 SpA. These stats are boosted even further by Life Orb (1.3x) and Protean (1.5x, STAB Bonus). Backed by 17 Speed, Froakie makes a great candidate for an all out attacker. Hydro Pump is your go-to move; backed by Protean and Life Orb, it’s no joke. Ice Beam is there to smack grass-types such as Tangela, and to a lesser extent dragons. HP Grass rounds out the coverage by giving you a decent way to hit water-types; it’s your best option vs. Frillish and friends. U-turn is to scout, as well as hitting non-resists surprisingly hard thanks to the pseudo-STAB from Protean.

A Choice item is a decent option as well, but Froakie generally enjoys being able to switch moves, as it makes the best use of his ability.

Physical Attacker

Froakie @ Berry Juice/Eviolite
Ability: Protean
Level: 5
EVs: 28 HP / 228 Atk / 28 Def / 4 SDef / 188 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Waterfall
- Return
- Thief / Rock Slide / Quick Attack

This set takes a different approach, as the main goal is to gradually build your attack and start dishing out heavy physical hits. Power-Up-Punch is the crux of the set, being a (weak) attack and a +1 attack boost all at once. Waterfall and Return get surprisingly good coverage together, only missing out on Ferroseed, Frillish, Pumpkaboo and Phantump. Thief can hit the latter three for respectable damage, as well as being potentially useful if you’ve already used up your Berry Juice. Rock Slide can be run as alternate coverage, and Quick Attack can be used for priority.

Toxic Spikes

Froakie @ Berry Juice/Eviolite
Ability: Protean
Level: 5
EVs: 108 HP / 28 Def / 180 SAtk / 4 SDef / 188 Spd
Timid Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Ice Beam / U-turn

Unfortunately for Froakie, it does NOT get Spikes, since it is a level-up move for Greninja only. It does however get Toxic Spikes, so if you’re looking for something fresh and new to set them up, why not Froakie? This set also utilizes a fast Taunt to shut down slower support pokemon and walls. Hydro Pump still hits very hard, although Scald can be used for the burn chance (note that this has synergy issues with Toxic Spikes). Ice Beam provides more coverage, although U-turn can be used to get the heck out of there once his job is done.

Conclusion

I only covered a few starter pokemon, but hopefully I’ve sparked some ideas for discussion. Which starters have you tried out in LC so far? Are there any movesets you’ve been particularly successful with? Feel free to post and discuss sets. Let’s discuss the starter pokemon of XY LC!

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Nice thread!

This is something fun I thought of while playing around in the teambuilder:

Chespin @ Eviolite
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 5
EVs: 108 Atk / 236 Def / 156 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Curse
- Gyro Ball
- Seed Bomb
- Synthesis


While this might look a bit confusing at first, all it needs is one turn to start snowballing into a complete physical juggernaut. Curse was used here instead of Bulk Up for a very important reason: Curse raises the power of Gyro Ball in TWO ways. Not only does it increase Chespin's Attack and Defense stats, but it also lowers Speed, thereby making Gyro Ball even stronger in addition to the separate Attack increase (Gyro Ball increases in power the less Speed you have than your target). With so many quick threats in the metagame, switching one into a +1 Gyro Ball is going to hurt, and switching into one after Curse has been used twice is just murder. Seed Bomb is the obligatory STAB attack, which deals high damage after Curse boosts, and deals even more if the foe happens to take you below 1/3 health on the turn before it's used. Synthesis is there to ease survivability, similarly to the way Quagsire did with Curse + Recover last generation in RU, and keeps Chespin alive so that it can continue to dish out chaos. Sassy nature and special defense investment are somewhat needed to help patch up its weaker side of the defensive spectrum. Stats for Attack and Defense are EVed so that the stat points are even numbers (14 Attack, 16 Defense) so that it gets the most out of boosts while still having decent special bulk. If Chespin is underestimated and it gets going, heads are going to roll, and not much will enjoy switching in. It should be noted that mons like Swirlix and Tyrunt who have ways of raising their Speed by themselves in battle... it also makes them weaker to Gyro Ball. Plus, if your opponent has Sticky Web in play, it only makes Gyro Ball stronger right off the bat!



+2 108 Atk Chespin Gyro Ball (133) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 24-29 (104.3 - 126%)

+2 108 Atk Chespin Gyro Ball (91) vs. 20 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 26-32 (113 - 139.1%)

+2 108 Atk Chespin Gyro Ball (91) vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Tyrunt: 26-32 (113 - 139.1%)

+2 108 Atk Chespin Gyro Ball (125) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 25-30 (104.1 - 125%)



And even though it's been banned, just for kicks... after only ONE boost:

+1 108 Atk Chespin Gyro Ball (112) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 28-34 (127.2 - 154.5%)


For maximum LOLs, try switching in on Slowpoke's Thunder Wave. It will probably switch out afterward, giving you a free Curse. From then, you'll have a super-powerful Gyro Ball due to the 75% Speed drop from paralysis, AND you will also be immune to Sleep as well as Will-O-Wisp, which will really suck if you get hit by it (thankfully it's fairly easy to see coming).

Of course it's not flawless. Special attackers and Fire-types can obviously give it problems. It's just something fun I thought up after seeing this thread.

 

[Trevenant]

Chespin @ Berry Juice
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 5
EVs: 108 Atk / 236 Def / 156 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Stone Edge
- Seed Bomb
- Substitute

Chespin was originally hated by me, but now, I think it is SO cute! This set is, in my opinion, going to be Chespin's most dangerous set. The ability to get to +6 in one turn, then heal back to full health is great! Bulletproof also makes it the best counter to Gastly around! Substitute is kind of filler, so it can be changed. Seed Bomb + Stone Edge bets pretty good coverage and will pretty much shred anything that isn't a Steel-type, but that's what teammates are for! The problem with this set is the lack of Speed, leaving it prone to being killed before it can launch off powerful attacks.

Then we have Defensive Chespin!

Chespin @ Berry Juice
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 5
EVs: 108 Atk / 236 Def / 156 SDef
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Seed Bomb
- Synthesis

This set will fit the role of a nice lead well, but again, lack of Speed is a problem.

 

[Rowan]

Starters are actually beginning to interest me this generation due to the new breeding mechanics. We can now pass down hidden abilities through the male which gives a few starters more options. Torchic has already been mentioned in the OP, but there are more: please bear in mind I haven't tested these yet.

Totodile
Totodile now has access to Sheer Force and with a reasonable attack stat of 65 and a speed stat of 43 it can run a nifty Dragon Dance set, with Sheer Force boosted Waterfall, Ice Punch and Crunch. It also has access to Superpower for Ferroseed and Aqua Jet for to beat weak priority users.

Bulbasaur
Bulbasaur now has access to chlorophyll though right now it seems outclassed by Tangela. It does have the advantage of resisting Fairy-types, Fighting-types and having STAB Sludge Bomb with could give it a niche.

Charmander
Charmander now has Solar Power - I'm not sure if this will do much for it especially since you have to run a very similar Pokemon in Vulpix. But a late-game scarf sweeper might be viable.

Along with Torchic and Froakie are the only starters I can see getting having any kind of niche in this metagame, at the moment. I'm probably going to experiment with Toto and post my verdicts here. edit: apparently Sheer Force Toto was never released in gen 5, my bad. The points about bulbasaur still stand though.

 

[Sergetank]

So like, I wanted to post in here because I like almost all the starters, and I feel like my man Turtwig doesn't get enough love. Not the best set, but something that could be done after I fiddled with sliders and looked at it's movepool.

Slow and steady ( also known as 'WHY DONT YOU HAVE INGRAIN?!')

Turtwig @ Eviolite
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 236 HP / 84 Def / 156 SpDef
Careful Nature (+SpDef, -SpAtk) or Impish (+Def, -SpAtk)
- Amnesia
- Curse
- Rest
- Seed Bomb

With effectively 25HP / 21Def or 22Def / 22SpDef or 21Spdef defenses with eviolite, Turtwig is a monster. While it has stockpile, this allows it to go on the offense ( even though mono-grass is bad ). Noted is that it also has Crunch which is neutral to steel and the Grass pokemon in the tier, especially Ferroseed. Unfortunate that this thing is such status bait though. But anyhoe. After an amnesia boost, here are some fun stats!

252+ SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. +2 236 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Turtwig in Sun: 18-23 (72 - 92%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Snover Blizzard vs. +2 236 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Turtwig: 16-18 (64 - 72%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. +2 236 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Turtwig: 16-21 (64 - 84%)

After a curse...!

252+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Head Smash vs. +1 236 HP / 84 Def Eviolite Turtwig: 17-21 (68 - 84%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimer Gunk Shot vs. +1 236 HP / 84 Def Eviolite Turtwig: 18-26 (72 - 104%)
252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110) vs. +1 236 HP / 84 Def Eviolite Turtwig: 14-20 (56 - 80%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. +1 236 HP / 84 Def Eviolite Turtwig: 17-21 (68 - 84%)
252+ Atk Guts Taillow Brave Bird vs. +1 236 HP / 84 Def Eviolite Turtwig: 20-26 (80 - 104%)

Okay so not that impressive. But if you get enough boosts under your shell, you aren't getting critical'd out is what sets it apart. Definitely dies to other boosting pokemon too though, and is walled pretty hard by grass (especially sap sippers) and steel; the grass/ghosts both can curse it and dispatch it that way too. Koffing doesn't mind coming in and clearing away your boosts with clear smog before will-o-wisping for laughs too. But pretty solid end game wall.

 

[leingodf8]

Lets have a quick run down shall we (without too much detail)

Squirtle: 2 sets, rapid spin support and priority abuser. Rapid spin support is generally outclassed by staryu/tentacool and priority is outclassed by seel :P
Charmander: Its got a tonne of unique options, like solar power, dragon dance and belly drum, but sadly cannot abuse any of them well
Bulbasaur: 2 sets again, bulky sub seed and chorophyll. Bulky subseed is done better by ALOT of things, as for chlorophyll its outclassed by tangela, and mostly outclassed by oddish and bellsprout (its bulkier than bellsprout and faster than oddish so it can play a sort of middle ground)
Totodile: A couple different options, most involving set up moves. Swords dance + aqua jet is cool and dragon dance is always a plus. While not completely outclassed, its generally worse than the likes of Corphish, Buizel and Kabuto.
Cyndaquil: One niche and one niche alone, the only thing that can run eruption in lc. So it will always be scarfed. ALWAYs.
Chikorita: I can not think of a single thing this does that a million other grass types don't already do. Just another generic bulky thing.
Mudkip: Another example of an overdone typing with mediocre stats and no niche. It can run a generic curse set, but its basically outclassed by slowpoke and wailmer in that regard.
Torchic: As mentioned above, saved by an amazing ability.
Treeko: The second worst unburden abuser (its better than purrloin I'll give it that). Nothing it can do can really abuse the ability that much. Its movepool would suit a high Atk stat, but instead it has a higher SpAtk. Swords dance can try to remedy this but it will have a very hard time setting up.
Piplup: Its cute but very all around mediocre. Defiant is an interesting ability that could be great if sticky web gets more and more popular. It also gets SR which is rather unique for a pure water type.
Chimchar: It has a lot of unique options like vaccum wave, bulk up, stealth rock, fake out, slack off, encore and a massive variety of type coverage. But its stats are so bad you'll never bother.
Turtwig: It and chespin are so similar its almost funny. Their stats are almost identical, they both get a set of curse/seed bomb/synthesis, one sets up rocks the other sets up spikes.
Oshawott: Just like every other starter with mixed attacking stats, its stats are spread to thin to be of much use. It also gets the swords dance + aqua jet combo but its outclassed by totodile for the most part.
Tepig: Slow fire types are generally frowned upon unless they have massive ammounts of bulk which tepig does not. It can try to run curse, or try to fix its speed with flame charge but it will never get far. Plus thick fat is rather redundant.
Snivy: Contrary would be this little guys rise to fame (if it ever gets released). But even with it its pretty slow and its coverage sucks. Scarf leaf storm spam will be this guys only use but it could be a decent late game finisher.
Froakie: As mentioned above, saved by an amazing ability.
Fennekin: I'm not entirely sure how magician works, but from what I can tell, it could turn its flame charges into thief, which is interesting to say the least. It gets a couple other things like wish and hypnosis but for the most part its a worse vulpix.
Chespin: See turtwig for the most part. It however gets bulletproof which could be a suprisingly powerful ability (beats missy prett good). Its a shame sludgewave was invented... otherwise chespin could have been a hard counter to the likes of skrelp.

 

[AOPSUser]

Lets have a quick run down shall we (without too much detail)

Squirtle: 2 sets, rapid spin support and priority abuser. Rapid spin support is generally outclassed by staryu/tentacool and priority is outclassed by seel :P
Charmander: Its got a tonne of unique options, like solar power, dragon dance and belly drum, but sadly cannot abuse any of them well
Bulbasaur: 2 sets again, bulky sub seed and chorophyll. Bulky subseed is done better by ALOT of things, as for chlorophyll its outclassed by tangela, and mostly outclassed by oddish and bellsprout (its bulkier than bellsprout and faster than oddish so it can play a sort of middle ground)
Totodile: A couple different options, most involving set up moves. Swords dance + aqua jet is cool and dragon dance is always a plus. While not completely outclassed, its generally worse than the likes of Corphish, Buizel and Kabuto.
Cyndaquil: One niche and one niche alone, the only thing that can run eruption in lc. So it will always be scarfed. ALWAYs.
Chikorita: I can not think of a single thing this does that a million other grass types don't already do. Just another generic bulky thing.
Mudkip: Another example of an overdone typing with mediocre stats and no niche. It can run a generic curse set, but its basically outclassed by slowpoke and wailmer in that regard.
Torchic: As mentioned above, saved by an amazing ability.
Treeko: The second worst unburden abuser (its better than purrloin I'll give it that). Nothing it can do can really abuse the ability that much. Its movepool would suit a high Atk stat, but instead it has a higher SpAtk. Swords dance can try to remedy this but it will have a very hard time setting up.
Piplup: Its cute but very all around mediocre. Defiant is an interesting ability that could be great if sticky web gets more and more popular. It also gets SR which is rather unique for a pure water type.
Chimchar: It has a lot of unique options like vaccum wave, bulk up, stealth rock, fake out, slack off, encore and a massive variety of type coverage. But its stats are so bad you'll never bother.
Turtwig: It and chespin are so similar its almost funny. Their stats are almost identical, they both get a set of curse/seed bomb/synthesis, one sets up rocks the other sets up spikes.
Oshawott: Just like every other starter with mixed attacking stats, its stats are spread to thin to be of much use. It also gets the swords dance + aqua jet combo but its outclassed by totodile for the most part.
Tepig: Slow fire types are generally frowned upon unless they have massive ammounts of bulk which tepig does not. It can try to run curse, or try to fix its speed with flame charge but it will never get far. Plus thick fat is rather redundant.
Snivy: Contrary would be this little guys rise to fame (if it ever gets released). But even with it its pretty slow and its coverage sucks. Scarf leaf storm spam will be this guys only use but it could be a decent late game finisher.
Froakie: As mentioned above, saved by an amazing ability.
Fennekin: I'm not entirely sure how magician works, but from what I can tell, it could turn its flame charges into thief, which is interesting to say the least. It gets a couple other things like wish and hypnosis but for the most part its a worse vulpix.
Chespin: See turtwig for the most part. It however gets bulletproof which could be a suprisingly powerful ability (beats missy prett good). Its a shame sludgewave was invented... otherwise chespin could have been a hard counter to the likes of skrelp.

Squirtle: You are using Fake Out and Aqua Jet on this thing why? Aqua Jet fails to do relevant damage to anything, and even Berry Juice Shell Smash Dwebble takes less than 50% from an uninvested Aqua Jet before smashing. Just use Rapid Spin on it.

Bulbasaur: Meh. Tangela exists if you need to use it.

Charmander: One of the only Belly Drummers in LC. That doesn't mean it's a good one. Dragon Dance is also a bad idea. Really, Solar Power is the only thing it has over any other Fire-type.

Totodile: No Sheer Force. Yet. Oh well. At least it's a decent DDer anyways. But Scraggy and the Dragons pull that off a lot better.

Cyndaquil: ERUPTION. Too bad Flash Fire was never released.

Chikorita: lol

Mudkip: If you like them I guess. Honestly that thing got old a year ago.

Torchic: I'm not sure if it can pull off the Pass well enough. But it is the only Speed Boost passer in LC.

Treecko: It's special movepool is Grass-type moves, Dragonbreath, and Hidden Power. It's physical attack is worse than some special sweepers in LC.

Piplup: lol what does this thing even do

Chimchar: Decent speed. And offenses. It gets Nasty Plot. And...yeah.

Turtwig: It's Chikorita with actual offenses. And SR. Too bad it can't use either of its offenses thanks to its movepool.

Oshawott: Good physical movepool with Swords Dance. But I'd rather use a Shell Smash mon if I need a Water-type attacker.

Tepig: lol

Snivy: It's fast. It has no offenses.

Froakie: PROTEAN. And it gets stuff like Rock Slide which is really weird.

Fennekin: Magician lets you steal an item by hitting the opponent, which is really good in LC with all the Eviolites. Unfortunately, it doesn't work with Gems (IE: Fire Gem Fire Blast doesn't steal an item), but it does with Power Herb (so Power Herb Solarbeam does). Or you can go itemless but no one wants to do that.

Chespin: It's Bulletproof. In theory. In practice, there's so many things that kill it. And it just doesn't have the Special Defense. At least it gets Pain Split?

 

[Trevenant]

I'll write up more later, but damn, the two people above this post or so freaking optimistic it hurts.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Squirtle: You are using Fake Out and Aqua Jet on this thing why? Aqua Jet fails to do relevant damage to anything, and even Berry Juice Shell Smash Dwebble takes less than 50% from an uninvested Aqua Jet before smashing. Just use Rapid Spin on it.

For what it's worth, we should at least note that Aqua Jet gets an additional boost in power once Squirtle's health goes into Torrent range, and this can quite potentially score some important late game KOs.

Chimchar: Decent speed. And offenses. It gets Nasty Plot. And...yeah.

Wow. Someone should get on this. I might try it. ^_^

Snivy: It's fast. It has no offenses.

I actually used a Snivy set last generation with Substitute/Calm Mind/Giga Drain/HP Fire and it was amazing. Taking yourself into Overgrow range with Substitute or having an opponent's attack take you to it increases STAB Giga Drain's power even further than the boosts do, which means more recovery. This thing can be incredible once it gets going and certain threats are eliminated. I haven't tried it this generation but I plan to; I don't think it should be written off as useless or nonviable, however.

Fennekin: Magician lets you steal an item by hitting the opponent, which is really good in LC with all the Eviolites. Unfortunately, it doesn't work with Gems (IE: Fire Gem Fire Blast doesn't steal an item), but it does with Power Herb (so Power Herb Solarbeam does). Or you can go itemless but no one wants to do that.

Fire Gem does not exist in XY and will not be transferable from older games since Pokebank will not allow held items.

 

[kingmidas]

Fire Gem does not exist in XY and will not be transferable from older games since Pokebank will not allow held items.

He was just using it as an example

Squirtle: You are using Fake Out and Aqua Jet on this thing why? Aqua Jet fails to do relevant damage to anything, and even Berry Juice Shell Smash Dwebble takes less than 50% from an uninvested Aqua Jet before smashing. Just use Rapid Spin on it.

Aqua jet is good for some uses, dual priority set can help prevent sweeps. Also thats good if it does less then 50, so berry juice doesn't activate and you can just KO it next turn

 

[Darkamber8828]

Magician could be really cool on Fennekin, depending on how it works. Has anyone played with Fennekin? Can you steal a Berry Juice when bringing a pokemon into activation range, before the enemy can use it?

Because if so, you can just stick a Berry Juice / Power Herb onto this thing and start sucking up health once you activate your own. The only common Water-types that run Eviolite are, what, Shellos and RestTalk Chinchou? Neither of them like Power Herb Solarbeam, or even HP Grass. It gets great coverage with Fire / Psychic / Grass (except Houndour and Deino) and it can run Substitute or Hypnosis in the last slot. Or both. Fire / Psychic neutral coverage is really good by itself.

The only way to "counter" this is to OHKO it before it activates Berry Juice or let it steal an Eviolite / Life Orb / Focus Sash / etc. And that's still pretty bad on its own. I dunno. Fennekin seems cool, as long as Magician works how I hope it does.

 

[sparktrain]

Fennekin's Magican ability does work the way you'd want it to; you can use a Power Herb Solar Beam, steal your opponent's Berry Juice without it activating for your opponent, and (if you're below half) consume it all in one turn.

It works well in theory, but there are more efficient methods of accomplishing nearly the same thing. Knock Off gets rid of your opponent's item 100% of the time (barring sub, Sticky Hold, etc). Magician relies on Fennekin to have already consumed its item, in addition to compromising its middling bulk. Eviolite Knock Off users such as Gligar, Pawniard, and Timburr in particular can remove their opponent's item while still remaining quite bulky. They all have their own certain perks such as super high speed, strong priority, or great natural bulk, none of which Fennekin has. In an ideal situation, Fennekin can pull off Magician successfully, but not consistently.

From my experiences with Fennekin on the ladder, I have only this to say: underwhelming. It's outclassed both offensively and defensively by Ponyta and Growlithe thanks to their higher base stats and the latter's access to Intimidate. Vulpix is more useful as a Fire Blast user, since it sets up its own sun. Magician is the only niche I see for Fennekin, but even item removal is arguably done more efficiently by other mons.

 

[Chieliee]

TORCHIC P0WRE

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oriserver-pokebanklcbeta-61535 -- my first game with torchic team
i knew there was an unofficial lc tour running on PS! but i couldnt'join, so i said i would give corkscrew my (um, i should say co-op with al_al and lunching ssin) team, only if he would win with it

and he did

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebanklcbeta-70300741 -- semifinals
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebanklcbeta-70308605 --finals

tbf with this team you'll either get 6-0'd 10% of the time, or win 6-0 in most of your matches

the torchic build is as following

Torchic @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 236 Spd / 36 SAtk / 36 SDef
Bold Nature
- Baton Pass
- Fire Blast
- Swords Dance
- Protect

this thing's bulk is pretty amazing (lives (probably defensive) gligar's eq ffs, mienfoo stone edge no prob either). good lord this thing is so broken when combined with tits or gligar. ban pls

 

[Sergetank]

So like I was looking at unburden users and guess who has unburden? That's right, Treecko does. So I decided to sit my ass down and think of a set for it to abuse, here you go.

Treecko @ Weakness Policy

Ability : Unburden
EVs: 236 ATK / 76 SPATK / 196 SPE
Hasty Nature (+Speed, -SpDef)
- Endure
- Leaf Storm
- Thunder Punch
- Acrobatics

Hits 17 Speed, 34 with unburden activated. Endure is the main draw of this set, grass has a ton of weaknesses to take advantage of. Endure means you'll survive with WP. +2 Attack and Special Attack, along with near unmatched speed, treecko can roll out. Thunderpunch for birds, Acrobatics for other grass types of course. Nothing likes taking +2 Leaf storm very often. Is what I could think of. I dunno what else Treecko can get though but its physical movepool so crazy lol. Also, priority ends this rampage so watch out.

 

[ciaxel]

Wait, since when was it confirmed that ALL starters would have their hidden abilities released? From what I know, none of the second generation starters, such as Totodile, didn't have access to their DW abilities. I just want to reiterate how this is possible before we get too excited, is all. --so hyped for flash fire choice specs cyndaquil though--

Guess I'll post a moveset here.
Bulbasaur @ Weakness Policy / Eviolite

Ability : Chlorophyll
EVs: 182 HP / 232 SpAtk / 96 SPE
Timid Nature (+SpAtk, -Attack)
- Sunny Day / Growth
- SolarBeam
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fire

Set up Sunny Day or switch in from a Poke who's already set it up (as long as you either switch in from something Bulbasaur resists, or is even weak against if you're running Weakness Policy), and sweep. The reason Weakness Policy is on here is because we're trying to utilize Bulbasaur's extra Poison typing to differentiate it from Tangela, but Eviolite is still the preferred option because Bulbasaur is way too frail without Baton Pass support. 96 Speed combined with Chlorophyll with a Speed boosting nature will still allow you to outspeed a majority of the sweepers in the metagame.

However, Tangela still remains to generally be a better option. You could replace HP EV's with Special Defense since Bulbasaur's base HP makes us cry.

 

[atomicllamas]

Wait, since when was it confirmed that ALL starters would have their hidden abilities released? From what I know, none of the second generation starters, such as Totodile, didn't have access to their DW abilities. I just want to reiterate how this is possible before we get too excited, is all. --so hyped for flash fire choice specs cyndaquil though--

Guess I'll post a moveset here.
Bulbasaur @ Weakness Policy / Eviolite

Ability : Chlorophyll
EVs: 182 HP / 232 SpAtk / 96 SPE
Timid Nature (+SpAtk, -Attack)
- Sunny Day / Growth
- SolarBeam
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fire

Set up Sunny Day or switch in from a Poke who's already set it up (as long as you either switch in from something Bulbasaur resists, or is even weak against if you're running Weakness Policy), and sweep. The reason Weakness Policy is on here is because we're trying to utilize Bulbasaur's extra Poison typing to differentiate it from Tangela, but Eviolite is still the preferred option because Bulbasaur is way too frail without Baton Pass support. 96 Speed combined with Chlorophyll with a Speed boosting nature will still allow you to outspeed a majority of the sweepers in the metagame.

However, Tangela still remains to generally be a better option. You could replace HP EV's with Special Defense since Bulbasaur's base HP makes us cry.

As an avid bulbasaur user myself, I don't really think that this is the way to go. Life orb will always be the superior option, as it allows you to OHKO +1 swirlix 100% of the time, and weakness policy is a terrible item on something that is likely killed by a super effective move (or left in fake out range). Bulba should only be used on sun teams WITH tangela, as it can wear down tangela's checks making spamming solarbeam that much easier. Bulba should also have something set the sun for it if you really want it to shine.

 

[kingmidas]

I think that if you want to sweep growth with eviolite would be better as you can do it more than once and will give you more bulk

 

[Darkamber8828]

If you're using LO Bulbasaur, you should probably be using LO Bellsprout instead, since it a point in special attack over Bulbasaur, and Weather Ball (and Sucker Punch, if you want to go mixed). The only things Bulbasaur have are more SpD (irrelevant) and 1 HP Life Orb recoil.

WHY DOESN'T ODDISH GET GROWTH IT IS A WEED

 

[Sergetank]

Technically Bulbasaur gets Weather Ball too but it's an event only with Overgrow. Scarf Leaf Storm / Weather Ball / Sludge Bomb / HP Fire is nice but Chlorophyll is just way too good. If only Ability Capsule worked for Hidden Abilities =|

 

[sparktrain]

Wait, since when was it confirmed that ALL starters would have their hidden abilities released? From what I know, none of the second generation starters, such as Totodile, didn't have access to their DW abilities. I just want to reiterate how this is possible before we get too excited, is all. --so hyped for flash fire choice specs cyndaquil though--

I think I meant all pre-pokebank starters had their hidden abilities, but yeah that sentence is a bit confusing. I'll update the OP.

 

[dr00]

i used DD totodile in gen IV quite a lot (back when berry juice was banned lol), but i wasn't around for LC in gen V and didn't see the whole thing evolve with the new mons, dream world HAs, and new items (eviolite and berry juice), so i guess totodile being outclassed is new to me.

i was thinking sheer force boosting ice punch / waterfall / crunch further boosted by life orb without the recoil would be really good, but from reading the thread and elsewhere online, i guess they never released that ability >:(
if/when they finally release it, i could see this guy being rather potent again.

i've honestly never really considered using any of the other starters, nor do i recall ever really running into any (aside from scarf cyndaquil). i mean piplup is adorable, but it was hard to justify using him. back when oran berry was the item of choice, pluck was pretty good i guess.
i support this thread though to get the creative juices flowing and find ways to make them useful.

any set for froakie to abuse protean sounds pretty fun

i like the BP torchic set a lot. it's a shame he doesn't get many decent physical moves to really use the SD boost himself :/
the special side is pretty underwhelming too, but passing even just the speed boosts would be enough for him to be really useful, and it could also use will-o-wisp for a really fast burn to lock down a physical attacker (of course this leaves him vulnerable to taunt though with protect / BP / SD already)

mudkip is kind of similar. he has a pretty decent attack but only has waterfall and dig (lol, don't use dig). he does get barrier now? not sure if that's really useful, but it is a new option for him.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

(Copied from my post in New/Creative Movesets - Little Cup edition!)

Fennekin @ Power Herb
Ability: Magician
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Spd / 100 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Psychic / Hidden Power [Electric]
- Hypnosis / Will-O-Wisp

I was playing around with this and I figured this set is something I wanted to add to this thread! The combination of Power Herb, Solar Beam, and Magician accomplishes all of these things in one turn: Solar Beam hits all 3 types Fire is weak to for hard super effective damage, and since Power Herb is consumed before Solar Beam is used, it allows Fennekin to steal an item from its target with Magician. Chinchou/Slowpoke switch-ins to this thing will learn a hard lesson. Berry Juice also does not activate for the opponent if Solar Beam takes them into its activation range; it is stolen instead. Magician can be used while attacking normally to repeatedly steal Berry Juice from opponents and sustain its own health if it keeps landing attacks on enemies that are holding it.

 

[Frostfluff]

Torchic can actually be decent.
Speed Boost allows for some speeding up, and Torchic DOES get Baton Pass.
This can allow it to boost some nifty speed to others.

Also, Froakie has been doing pretty good with Protean, but there are better options.

Bulbasaur does pretty well on sun teams, he works decently well with Vulpix (drought setup). Chlorophyll allows him, with some speed EVs, to outspeed almost all of the scarfers in LC (if not all). Growth is great for boosting. Not to mention Bulbasaur gets Knock Off.

(Copied from my post in New/Creative Movesets - Little Cup edition!)

Fennekin @ Power Herb
Ability: Magician
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Spd / 100 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Psychic / Hidden Power [Electric]
- Hypnosis / Will-O-Wisp

I was playing around with this and I figured this set is something I wanted to add to this thread! The combination of Power Herb, Solar Beam, and Magician accomplishes all of these things in one turn: Solar Beam hits all 3 types Fire is weak to for hard super effective damage, and since Power Herb is consumed before Solar Beam is used, it allows Fennekin to steal an item from its target with Magician. Chinchou/Slowpoke switch-ins to this thing will learn a hard lesson. Berry Juice also does not activate for the opponent if Solar Beam takes them into its activation range; it is stolen instead. Magician can be used while attacking normally to repeatedly steal Berry Juice from opponents and sustain its own health if it keeps landing attacks on enemies that are holding it.

This Fennekin works pretty well. You should be able to pull off a lot of things with it, nice job Bri.

I ran into a team with 4 starters today. Replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcsuspecttest-99884464

J/S that it's not a great idea to run too many starters, a few of them are decent but you shouldn't overdo it.

 

[Max Carvalho]

I have tried a curse torchic:

Curse chic:
Torchic Berry juice
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 236 HP 36+ special def 236 speed.
-Curse
-Protect
-Substitute
-Baton Pass
This guy is awesome. You use protect in the first turn agains some thing with fake out or substitute in some thing who will use stealth rock. Then proceeds to use curse, if possible substitute then baton pass. Shell smash users love the defense boosts torchic gives him so they can sweep with ease. He is very effective and if you baton pass to meditite gg xD

 

[Merritt]

I'll do my impression of each starter.

Bulbasaur: Decent Chlorophyll user, and a probable staple on any sun team. Although it's sort of outclassed by bellsprout, it can also help as a secondary sweeper at the very least. Of course, the fact that Fletchling exists makes it hard for the grass type.

Charmander: It has solar power, which is nice, but it's not a very good Pokemon overall, essentially requiring a scarf. In the end, it's possible on sun teams, but not great.

Squirtle: I guess it has rapid spin and aqua jet? Use Staryu if you want a water type rapid spinner.

Chikorita: why would you even use this thing i don't understand

Cindaquill: Eruption hurts stuff. If you can actually keep hazards down, then it can run a devastating scarf eruption set on a sun team, because if they doesn't resist it or have priority they're going to get hurt.

Totodile: It has dragon dance and some decent moves, but it's outclassed by some things like Corphish.

Treecko: Unburden is pretty nice, and treecko could conceivably run a swords dance set due to access to acrobatics and drain punch. It is unfortunate that it doesn't get leaf blade, but leaf storm can be used to punch through physical walls once, and you won't have to worry about it taking away from your other attacks.

Torchic: This is by far the bestest starter. Even if baton pass is somewhat prone to being messed up, it's a fantastic supporter who can easily cause a sweep. Just watch out for counters, because people know what a problem it can be.

Mudkip: Curse and Damp are really the only things it can possibly use, and it's generally outclassed. It doesn't even have ground typing, which would have solved everything.

Tutwig and Chimchar: Haven't used them enough to really say anything.

Piplup: I love you piplup. It's got its defog, and its got its rocks and its got its scald. It's able to beat some of the best hazard setters and anti-hazard mons before setting up rocks. Also, if you need to defog, it's one of the only few that doesn't take at least 25% from rocks (lol seedot).

Unova: For the most part, these are bad. Snivy and Oshawott can be used, but that doesn't mean they should be used. Outclassed by largely all the other things of the same type. Tepig is well... I show you a Ponyta/Larvesta/Magby to answer.

Chespin: Sure, I guess it'll counter Gastly with Bulletproof, and is an interesting switch in to some of the other ghost types in the tier, but it's not actually very good, unless you for some reason are completely weak to gastly and want to not run one of them "hipster mons" like pawniard.

Fennekin: It's an interesting ability to be sure. It does a good job of running solarbeam power herb, as it's really the only viable user of the item due to magician, but it's all too easy to become a one trick ponyfox ifwhen it picks up eviolite. It's gimmicky, and it can really only run one set that makes it usable over other fire types, but it's not total trash.

Froakie: Unlike its speedy evolution, Froakie only hits the 17 speed tier, which, while not bad, is certainly a downfall. With weak defenses, and in no way stellar attacking stats, Froakie has but one advantage over other water types. But oh, what an advantage this is. Protean makes Froakie one of the best coverage attackers in the tier, and one of the very, very few that can run no STAB water move. With Froakie's similar attacking stats and interesting movepool, it can run a physical set, special set, "mixed" set, or a scarf set to overcome its decent speed and become a deadly revenge killer. Froakie's unpredictability is a massive boon, as, if it outspeeds, the opponent must be cautious about throwing around electric, ground, ghost, normal, or poison type moves, as Froakie (assuming that you're a supremely skilled predictor) has the possibility of changing type to be immune. If only it had slightly more speed, it could be a fantastic threat.

Final rankings on a scale from 1 to 5.

1: Torchic, based pass god
2: Froakie, because of protean
3: Piplup, because RockFog; Bulbasaur, because Chlorophyll
3.5: Charmander, because solar power; Cindaquill, because Eruption
4: Fennekin, because Powerful Magician; Treecko, because it can work sometimes
5: Squirtle, Totodile, Mudkip, Snivy, Oshawott, Chespin
???: Turtwig, Chimchar

Blacklisted: Chikorita, Tepig

*Note, these are all my opinion, and are absolutely subject to being wrong. Merritt does not take any responsibility for any ladder point loss that may occur due to using any of the advertised/analyzed Pokemon. Please also note that there is no real reason to read this, as nobody will pay attention to it anyways.