I just am wondering how many of the people who are claiming bulky waters no longer work in gen 6 have actually tried using these bulky waters.
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Other State of Bulky Waters
- Thread starter Sarpyn
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Maybe I missed a Slowbro mention, but seriously the pink sloth thing is almost a crutch for me at this point. All around good physical wall that will stay alive with regenerator. I run rocky helmet to punish spam and at least punish the occassional super effective albeit non STAB physical coverage move while still surviving to switch out again. You can even specialize it further for status shenanigans (thunder wave) or slap an assault vest on it and count on a great move pool that rewards good prediction. Again, the option to simply switch out and get back up to good health is a god send that opens up so many roles for Slowbro.
Suicune is a monster and I'll be surprised if he's not A+ rank in OU at the end of this gen. Can't even count how many games he has pulled out of his ass to win for me.
While the washing machine is good, Will-O-Wisp and Hydro Pump misses are gamebreaking. There are other somewhat bulky Pokemon that can take a hit and fill a similar role if that's all you're looking for (Mew for example), and they have the un-immune-able (not a word) U-Turn to keep momentum up. Regeneratormons, like Slowbro, are also very viable.
crocune is still as annoying to take down as ever this gen. put it on a team, you'll see
1, You spelt Vaporeon wrong
2. Vaporeon is easy AF to break, its only buffer against death was HydrationRest
and Rotom-W is really one of the only bulky waters even worth considering. Only Jellicent, Vaporeon(not so much anymore as sylveon generally can do cleric better now), Slowbro/king, and maybe quagsire should be used.
suicune is also useable as a bulky water and so is empoleon with the right support (but its more defog/sr utility rather than bulky water...)
I agree, back in 5th generation a lot of people didn't have any answer for the Hydration Wall set, I used to do a max special defense, max HP set, even stuff like Starmie failed to OHKO it. Though the more experienced players were prepared for it.
Right now the only bulky waters which are worth mentioning are Rotom-W, Jellicent (and Tentacruel to an extend)
CharX, CharY, physical mLucario (special too if Cune is unboosted), mPinsir (if you don't get lucky and burn it while it sets up), and Thundurus (before you get significant boosts) are all huge threats to the Cune. Really strong stuff like specs Keldeo and choice band Terrakion can outspeed and 3HKO you as well, which means you lose to them before you can rest again. That said, and these are all things that can break virtually any wall in the game that doesn't resist the specific attack, so it's not like Suicune is at a huge disadvantage here. Even Thundurus can 2HKO Blissey with rocks and superpower.
I run rapid spin, scald, sludge bomb, and ice beam. (with black sludge attached)
With the increase in steel and poison types due to fairy I decided to use a more offensive than all out wall.
(maybe I've just been lucky but he's worked surprisingly and happily well!)
All of those except MPinsir threaten Rotom-W as well though, eh? So does that mean Suicune is in a good place right now?
Basically. Rotom is probably easier to use because you just switch him in to shit he counters, but I think a well played Suicune is more rewarding.
I think comparisons between suicune and rotom-w should stop. They are very different pokemon that play very different roles. Suicune is a set up sweeper for christ's sake.
That being said Suicune definitely looks better this gen. No need to talk about Rotom-Wash, what more is there to say?
Anyone have any thoughts on Mega-Blastoise? I've heard some pretty mediocre to negative things elsewhere, but honestly I love him. He is a tank, quite literally and it is really hard to take down in two neutral hits. It seems to be a bit of a faux pas to trade away pokemon on anything but HO teams, but I've found him very threatening when the opponent is struggling to out damage him. When M-Blastoise has killed a guy and crippled another I see his job as done, and his general bulk makes him a nice catch all in many situations. Blastoise will often trade with one of my opponent's heaviest hitters which can really take the wind out of their sails. Closest to the traditional sense of bulky water that I've had in the new gen on my bulky offensive teams.
That being said Suicune definitely looks better this gen. No need to talk about Rotom-Wash, what more is there to say?
Anyone have any thoughts on Mega-Blastoise? I've heard some pretty mediocre to negative things elsewhere, but honestly I love him. He is a tank, quite literally and it is really hard to take down in two neutral hits. It seems to be a bit of a faux pas to trade away pokemon on anything but HO teams, but I've found him very threatening when the opponent is struggling to out damage him. When M-Blastoise has killed a guy and crippled another I see his job as done, and his general bulk makes him a nice catch all in many situations. Blastoise will often trade with one of my opponent's heaviest hitters which can really take the wind out of their sails. Closest to the traditional sense of bulky water that I've had in the new gen on my bulky offensive teams.
I use MegaStoise as a spinner/tank and he functions quite well. Rapid Spin and Dark Pulse for spinblocking Ghosts help his spinning utility, and Hydro Pump coming off of base 135 SpA hurts a lot of stuff. He has a plethora of coverage moves he can use, and he handles Talonflame very well. He isn't the best Mega to use right now since certain Megas that need to be banned (ohai Mega Lucario) still reside in OU, but he fulfills a unique role. Kind of like Starmie with bulk instead of speed.
Rotom-W is stupid. It has a great typing and movepool and is seen on almost every team because it can do so much it's annoying. When I see it, people almost always lead with it and either WoW or volt switch because it's such a simple strategy. I just hate it since it's so easy to use and has such good payoff with few drawbacks.
It has a good amount of counters. Strong Neutral hits will wear it down faster than it can recover with lefties. Chesto rest sets can be countered with a knock off mon
I concur, Tentacruel's been a beast for me.
To me, bulky waters are still tenable this generation - each of them just require different kinds of team support.
I personally play using Milotic (scald/toxic/haze/recover - owns every single BP team out there) on the team and it has done well. True, its bulk isn't what it used to be, but then again, how many of these waters can handle the power creep (such as megalucario, mega scizor)? Vaporeon dies, swampert dies, suicune dies as well to boosted close combats and bug bites. You need pretty specific checks and counters for them and your bulky water is at best, a sort of back-up.
With weather sort of phasing out this gen, the ever popular FWG core can make a comeback and the waters will always have a place. Granted, most of it is filled out by the likes of rotom-w these days but that's because of its really good typing, ability and movepool, which the brethren of bulky waters lack. However, this does not mean that they are not viable. Given the right team support, I'm sure each of them are able to shine.
PS: On a side note, azumarill is actually quite a monster this gen with its play rough.
I personally play using Milotic (scald/toxic/haze/recover - owns every single BP team out there) on the team and it has done well. True, its bulk isn't what it used to be, but then again, how many of these waters can handle the power creep (such as megalucario, mega scizor)? Vaporeon dies, swampert dies, suicune dies as well to boosted close combats and bug bites. You need pretty specific checks and counters for them and your bulky water is at best, a sort of back-up.
With weather sort of phasing out this gen, the ever popular FWG core can make a comeback and the waters will always have a place. Granted, most of it is filled out by the likes of rotom-w these days but that's because of its really good typing, ability and movepool, which the brethren of bulky waters lack. However, this does not mean that they are not viable. Given the right team support, I'm sure each of them are able to shine.
PS: On a side note, azumarill is actually quite a monster this gen with its play rough.
bulky waters are still around,
it's just before you had multiple pokemon with pros and cons.
Now with rotom-w, you have volt switch, Hydro pump, wow, immunity to ground, immunity to paralysis, one weakness and it's only a 2x weakness, alright recovery with painsplit, offensive presence, decent speed, in a single pokemon.
It's not that no one uses bulky waters, it's that bulky waters are outclassed now by Rotom-W, so why use anything else?
it's just before you had multiple pokemon with pros and cons.
Now with rotom-w, you have volt switch, Hydro pump, wow, immunity to ground, immunity to paralysis, one weakness and it's only a 2x weakness, alright recovery with painsplit, offensive presence, decent speed, in a single pokemon.
It's not that no one uses bulky waters, it's that bulky waters are outclassed now by Rotom-W, so why use anything else?
Is Rotom-W really a paradigmatic "bulky water" as in "bulky water" in the DPP sense? I thought its primary defensive appeal mainly is that it is ungrounded Flying resist (great especially against Pinsir and most Earthquake and Earth Power users except Exdadrill and Kyurem-B), and Fire resist for Talonflame. In contrast, all the types that resist Flying -- Rock, Steel, and Electric -- are weak against Ground. A +2 Pinsir can power through a Bulky Water (or even a Lando-T who made it a +1). Unlike a traditional "bulky water", Rotom-W relies more on its ability and typing than its raw defensive stats to be effective, and it is uniquely effective in the Gen 6 metagame.
Its movepool is predictable, but also provides great support and offensive coverage.
Rotom-W is so "anti-meta" that it is "meta", unlike something like Gen 5 Mamoswine which was "anti-meta" but never used that heavily.
People use Rotom-W as a bulwark against Talonflame, (stance Dance) Aegislash, Mega-Pinsir, Azumarill, and Mega-Mawile, and Landorus-T (who arguably has a bigger role in the Gen 6 metagame as a Pokemon that can set-up Stealth Rock without being an Earthquake and Talonflame liability). In addition, it performs well against Gen 5 stalwarts such as Skarmory, Hippowdon, Dragonite, and Garchomp. It is a reaction against metagame threats; it did NOT centralize the metagame on its own. With the exception of Lando-T, people do not want to be swept by these things.
You can also argue that one reason why Assault Vest Conkeldurr is so popular is its ability to take on Rotom-W (and also Knock Off as a deterrent against a Ghost switch-in.)
Of course, independent of those threats, it did gain a buffed Will-O-Wisp, and the metagame collectively decided an 85% accurate Will-O-Wisp justifies the use of Rotom-W.
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Just laughed a good bit at calling Rotom-W anti meta. But I get your point CMLatias, you're spot on. Hope you don't mind me shortening your name by the way.
I'd say the ace that Rotom-W holds is versatility. When your least versatile move is a base 110 stab that's a pretty good place to be. This is something to look for in other bulky waters to find success in this generation. While it can work to simply power through things with say, Crocune, versatility is Rotom's game and as the new face of bulky waters in my opinion, that should be looked for more. Moves like scald, yawn, dragon tail, u-turn/volt switch, trick, status and other flexible moves not dependent on damage all seem important on pokemon that utilize nice general bulk such as bulky waters. While type coverage is indeed more important now than ever for defensive measures, general bulk with types hard to hit for SE damage have been piquing my interest because of the prevalence of Volt-Turn and the difficulty of maintaining type advantage. This is where Mega-Blastoise interests me.
Mega-Venusaur kinda feels like the best bulky water ever. I want more grass types with thick fat.
I'd say the ace that Rotom-W holds is versatility. When your least versatile move is a base 110 stab that's a pretty good place to be. This is something to look for in other bulky waters to find success in this generation. While it can work to simply power through things with say, Crocune, versatility is Rotom's game and as the new face of bulky waters in my opinion, that should be looked for more. Moves like scald, yawn, dragon tail, u-turn/volt switch, trick, status and other flexible moves not dependent on damage all seem important on pokemon that utilize nice general bulk such as bulky waters. While type coverage is indeed more important now than ever for defensive measures, general bulk with types hard to hit for SE damage have been piquing my interest because of the prevalence of Volt-Turn and the difficulty of maintaining type advantage. This is where Mega-Blastoise interests me.
Mega-Venusaur kinda feels like the best bulky water ever. I want more grass types with thick fat.
AV Slowbro sounds really cool... it's a shame that Slowbro doesn't get Dragon Tail... I wonder if AV Slowking with max DEF investment could work comparably. D.Tail seems pretty clutch on an AV set, though I guess between Ice Beam, Scald, Fire Blast, and Psychic they both have enough attacking options regardless.
Yeah why the hell doesn't slowbro get dragon tail, while slowking does? Of the two, the one with the massive club-like shellder tail doesn't get the damaging tail attack. Just odd. If only yawn could be used with AV, which is the move I'm most interested in with slowbro right now. I really think that move has untapped potential, but maybe I'm living in lala land.
I don't see why AV slowking couldn't be good. The question is what's more efficient? base 80 defense with investment and base 110 special defense for Av, or base base 110 defense with investment and base 80 special defense for AV. As assault vest adds more special bulk than full investment can IIRC I'm inclined to think that it's more efficient to have the worse stat in special defense. Dragon Tail is the only incentive to go for slowking instead on an AV build as far as I can tell, and I'm not sure if that's enough. I definitely could be missing something, or misjudging the importance of the stat differences though.
I don't see why AV slowking couldn't be good. The question is what's more efficient? base 80 defense with investment and base 110 special defense for Av, or base base 110 defense with investment and base 80 special defense for AV. As assault vest adds more special bulk than full investment can IIRC I'm inclined to think that it's more efficient to have the worse stat in special defense. Dragon Tail is the only incentive to go for slowking instead on an AV build as far as I can tell, and I'm not sure if that's enough. I definitely could be missing something, or misjudging the importance of the stat differences though.
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