Other State of Bulky Waters

[Chou Toshio]

The way Slowbro/Slowking's defensive stats work, in terms of mixed sets, they can achieve basically identical stats. IE, if you are using a specially defensive Slowbro, you can get the exact same stats with a physically defensive Slowking-- except King has the better movepool. Massively special defensive sets are better with Slowking too.

With AV, the more you invest in Special Defense, the more overall bulk you achieve. Obviously, a Slowking with max Special Defense has the most overall raw bulk, but it is severely deficient on the physical side, which totally ruins the point of having a Regenerator abusing bulky water-type. Meanwhile, AV or no, Slowbro can achieve the exact same stats as a max physically defensive Slowking if it wants to.

Moreover, Slowbro's stats allow it to achieve a physical bulk that Slowking simply can't. If you need physical bulk beyond the point Slowking is capable of, you need bro. Whether Slowking is viable is all a question of how hard the physical attackers in the meta hit. Whereas Bro's viability (having an inferior movepool) relies on the physical attackers hitting too hard for slowking.

With Max Physical bulk, slowking gets you the following stats:
HP: 394
DEF: 284
SpD: 257 (386 with AV)

Slowbro can get these stats too, but if Slowbro goes max physical, it ends up with:

HP: 394
DEF: 350
Sp.D: 197 (296)

 

[Ogami]

Not sure which is optimal, but I'm much less impressed with slowking's physical bulk than I am deterred by slowbro's special bulk. I'd say a good amount of special attacker sin OU have SE coverage on slowbro/king so I'm not so sure how I feel about using him as a special tank in the first place

 

[SkiGloves]

You got me interested Chou, so I decided to look up exactly how much better Slowking's movepool is.

Things in Slowking's extra movepool in order of awesome:
Dragon Tail - the Slows don't get Roar or Whirlwind, but also one a few valid utility moves for an Assault Vest set. (Very tempting)
Power Gem - Second strongest move to hit Mantine with.
Nasty Plot - Are you SURE you don't want to use Calm Mind?
Trump Card - Meh.

Things Slowking loses to get those moves:
Withdraw - You'll never breach my defences 6 turns from now! (BW2 tutor: Iron defence)
Aerial Ace - SLOWBRO used AERIAL ACE.

Unfortunately, the argument about being able to tune their defences to match doesn't work out if you go 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD. Which is what I've been having success with. So it's either be a dedicated special wall or no dragon tail.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Generally speaking, bulk water types are better off being physically focused. Their weaknesses to electric and grass are a big part of that, but so is their ability to check ground types, steel types, and physical dragons (lati@s lol at weak unstabbed ice beams). This is even more true for slowpoke's evos who have an added resistance to fighting. If not investing in DEF, I'd say slowbro's advantage is even more concrete.

 

[LuvdiscFTW]

How viable is Jellicent actually? Cuz I don't think I have seen it once... I mean ghost as a defensive typing is not that good anymore, and it's defensive stats are not able to handle the power creep either (especially it's sub-par def stat) It still spreads burns around like there's no tomorrow though.

 

[effyouzion]

How viable is Jellicent actually? Cuz I don't think I have seen it once... I mean ghost as a defensive typing is not that good anymore, and it's defensive stats are not able to handle the power creep either (especially it's sub-par def stat) It still spreads burns around like there's no tomorrow though.

He's great if you manage to face a team that has a Lucario without dark pulse or crunch, or a team that has sub/CM Keldeo. Jelli endlessly walls both of them. Other than that, he's not all that great. Rotom mostly outclasses him because you can volt switch around and you resist flying.

 

[LuvdiscFTW]

Yeah he seems pretty niche to me, he's got better special bulk though and an immunity to fighting type moves over it. Would also have been an awesome m-kanga counter, probably? never tried it, though...
Edit: Not counter, check

 

[Helix]

I still use tentacruel as a rapidspinner/knock off and it seems to still be working out well.

 

[Moxiecross99]

well at the end of the day water is the same (I think) to fairy in terms of resistances strengths and weaknesses. The drop in usage is probably due to just another tyope doing the same job so I guess it depends on the players needed coverage but iI feel its guaranteed that at least on of those types will be gluing a team together (Vaporeon for me- find that it never dies and can hit back very nicely)

 

[Chou Toshio]

^as mentioned on the earlier page, it's because everything hits so freaking hard that you pretty much NEED resistances to be good defensively. In past gens (ADV / DPP), good base stats + few weaknesses made for better walls, so water-types were superior defensively. Not the case anymore. In BW they still had Drizzle to really abuse, but that got washed up. Water is much less good defensively now, and none of them (besides Keldeo) has truly terrifying offensive stats.


Jellicent's biggest downfall is that Spin Blocking is far less relevant now due to Defog. Before, defensive teams, or hazard dependent teams almost NEEDED a Ghost to ensure their strategy worked, and with that Ghost Type, Jellicent brought more than enough utility to justify a spot on many teams. Now, no teams RELY on Hazards, and that alone would limit a Spin Blocker's usefulness, but on top of that the uncertainty of potentially fighting a Defog user makes Jellicent's attractiveness in team building even less.

Besides the novelty of Spinblocking, Jellicent's not got a whole lot more going for it-- it's statistically inferior to unpopular Pokemon like Milotic and Vaporeon, and can't specialize as well as Slowbro/Slowking. All of these have reliable recovery as well, and Bro has much better defensiveness on the physical side, where it really matters, not to mention a better ability in Regenerator. None of these Pokemon are very popular or considered very useful.

Jellicent has W-o-W, but so does Rotom-W, and with all Scald around the ability to burn isn't exactly unique in the world of water-types. Otherwise, Jellicent has... Taunt. That's cool, but a base 70 Speed Taunt isn't exactly game defining. Only Stall teams would worry about it, and they can just switch in Mega Venusaur totally shut Jellicent down...

 

[rhythmic]

Generally speaking, bulk water types are better off being physically focused. Their weaknesses to electric and grass are a big part of that, but so is their ability to check ground types, steel types, and physical dragons (lati@s lol at weak unstabbed ice beams). This is even more true for slowpoke's evos who have an added resistance to fighting. If not investing in DEF, I'd say slowbro's advantage is even more concrete.

Hey Chou Toshio. So what would be the ideal EV spread for slowbro if I plan to use it as a bulky attacker with Modest for it's nature? I was thinking 128 HP / 128 Def / 252 SAtk, but I'm also thinking going full 252 with HP instead.

And for that role (bulky attacker), between Bro and King, which would actually be better suited for the job? I'm pretty certain it's Slowbro, but I still want to hear opinions on this.

 

[SkiGloves]

Hey Chou Toshio. So what would be the ideal EV spread for slowbro if I plan to use it as a bulky attacker with Modest for it's nature? I was thinking 128 HP / 128 Def / 252 SAtk, but I'm also thinking going full 252 with HP instead.

And for that role (bulky attacker), between Bro and King, which would actually be better suited for the job? I'm pretty certain it's Slowbro, but I still want to hear opinions on this.

Slowbro'll get more overall bulk by investing in health than either of its defences. Yes you'll get more physical or special bulk by investing in defence or special defence but it's probably not worth it without max health first. 248 health gives you 393 HP, which is 1 over a number divisible by 8.

As for special attack investment
0 SpA OHKOs Flygon with icebeam.
100+ SpA OHKOs a fully physically defensive Eviolite Ferroseed with Fireblast.
188+ SpA OHKOs offensive Zygarde with icebeam.
244+ SpA OHKOs Mega Houndoom with Surf outside of Sun. 248 HP AV Slowbro can take a dark pulse in the Sun if at full health.
252+ SpA is a 93.8% chance to OHKO Chandelure with Scald. There's a similar case with Houndoom, it seems the power gap matters.

I can't think of any other important one or two hit KOs. You can always just max your special attack, but this way you can dump the remaining EVs in your defence stat of choice.

Edit: Whoops. Sorry, I forgot this is the OU forum. ^.^"

Some more relevant calcs then...
92+ OHKOs Garchomp with icebeam.
136+ OHKOs 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn with Fire Blast. 192+ for 252 HP / 48 SpD
... And I seriously need a refresher on the current trends of OU.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Skigloves, try to keep your post relevant to OU. If you want to post those calcs (no one cares about Feroseed or Zygarde here), do it in the UU thread.

 

[November Blue]

Hey Chou Toshio. So what would be the ideal EV spread for slowbro if I plan to use it as a bulky attacker with Modest for it's nature? I was thinking 128 HP / 128 Def / 252 SAtk, but I'm also thinking going full 252 with HP instead.

And for that role (bulky attacker), between Bro and King, which would actually be better suited for the job? I'm pretty certain it's Slowbro, but I still want to hear opinions on this.

You'd be better off with a physical tank set, IMO:

Slowbro @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold
Regenerator

Slack Off
Scald
Ice Beam
Psychic / Psyshock

It still hits fairly hard, and has a good amount of power. Alternatively, you could try an Assault Vest set.

Now I can't stop wondering what a Mega Zygarde would look like, if it existed.

Think Giratina-O.

 

[rhythmic]

You'd be better off with a physical tank set, IMO:

Slowbro @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold
Regenerator

Slack Off
Scald
Ice Beam
Psychic / Psyshock

It still hits fairly hard, and has a good amount of power. Alternatively, you could try an Assault Vest set.



Think Giratina-O.

Sorry I didnt mention it, but yeah I'm planning on having assault vest on Slowbro. Just wondering what the optimal EV spread for him would be.

 

[Meru]

Honestly, I never understood the obsession with a bulky Water-type past DPPt. I've found that this gen, what is FAR more ubiquitous throughout teams is the bulky Ground-type. Similar to Bulky Waters, bulky Ground-types aren't weak to any common Physical moves. Waterfall/Icicle Crash/Bullet Seed can all be seen coming from a mile away. While those attacks can be devestating given the right users, bulky Ground-types make up for it by having better resistances, including a resistance to Stealth Rock to ease their switch in, while also packing an immunity to Sandstorm, allowing them to be far more of a nuisance.

And there are bulky Ground-types to fall into any spectrum of teamstyle. On the stall end of the spectrum, you have Hippowdon and Quagsire being huge pains to take down. On the bulky offensive side, you have Landorus-T and Excadrill offering sky high attack stats and good support. On a more balanced team, you have Gliscor and Mamoswine. And finally, on the HO side, you have Garchomp and Landorus-I blasting holes. Inbetween these three archetypes, you also have more underused options like Gastrodon, Nidoqueen, AV Donphan, Swampert, Rhyperior, Krookodile, etc. Pretty much every team has a Ground-type of choice, some even having two different Ground-types due to the plethora of secondary typings to choose from between them.

Bulky Ground-types have pretty much usurped the meta since BW, replacing the standard bulky Water-type, which ironically, is now only fulfilled by Rotom-W, a bulky Water immune to Ground-type attacks.

 

[SkiGloves]

Honestly, I never understood the obsession with a bulky Water-type past DPPt. I've found that this gen, what is FAR more ubiquitous throughout teams is the bulky Ground-type. Similar to Bulky Waters, bulky Ground-types aren't weak to any common Physical moves. Waterfall/Icicle Crash/Bullet Seed can all be seen coming from a mile away. While those attacks can be devestating given the right users, bulky Ground-types make up for it by having better resistances, including a resistance to Stealth Rock to ease their switch in, while also packing an immunity to Sandstorm, allowing them to be far more of a nuisance.

I think people prefer water types because they are far easier to build a core around. For instance, Slowbro can switch on water moves aimed at Infernape all day and Infernape would appreciate finding his way in on a bug, grass or dark attack. I've tried building a team around Hippowdon in UU and it hasn't been an easy task, the team ended up getting hijacked by a Ferroseed, Jellicent, Hydreigon core. The team does feature both Hippo and use Claydol as my spinner and an answer to Cromag, so... Yeah I can see bulky ground types as a thing.

 

[medagross999]

1, You spelt Vaporeon wrong
2. Vaporeon is easy AF to break, its only buffer against death was HydrationRest

and Rotom-W is really one of the only bulky waters even worth considering. Only Jellicent, Vaporeon(not so much anymore as sylveon generally can do cleric better now), Slowbro/king, and maybe quagsire should be used.
suicune is also useable as a bulky water and so is empoleon with the right support (but its more defog/sr utility rather than bulky water...)

*reads signature* hey look Its above the line XD