Data State of the Game - 6/10/2011

[Deck Knight]

I somewhat disagree here - a person could have a loss of internet for a few days (This does sometimes happen), or another life event occur. I think that if a person has shown signs of activity when s/he is DQ'ed (Perhaps having been on within the DQ timeframe), then a punishment is fair. If they have suddenly vanished, no punishment should occur.

Fair enough, If someone has been active previously I always request they VM the opponent and wait a day over the actual DQ because life happens.

I'm eternally worried about this being usable as a Token Farming technique - 6 v 6, 1 Day player DQ. Go for a couple of rounds, and in a week you've got a full set of EC/MC/DC on 6 mon.

Also, how would this work in conjunction with a match concluding as a DQ before 2 rounds?

We should add a third rule, since such an intentional DQ would be considered a form of cheating.

3. If a match appears to be an intentional DQ, the battle will be nullified and both players will face severe penalties up to and including permanent banishment from the game and temporary removal from Smogon itself.

 

[Spenstar]

3. If a match appears to be an intentional DQ, the battle will be nullified and both players will face severe penalties up to and including permanent banishment from the game and temporary removal from Smogon itself.

That's not fair at all; what if one person intentionally token farmed but his opponent got duped into thinking it was a legitimate battle?

 

[Deck Knight]

That's not fair at all; what if one person intentionally token farmed but his opponent got duped into thinking it was a legitimate battle?

Chances are that person would have PM'd/VM'd someone and they would not be the one to hammer down the DQ one day afterward. If say a 6v6 Singles match ocurred and one player mysteriously drops out and the opponent is there immediately to call the DQ with no effort to contact the ref or the opposing player, that sends up red flags.

Moderator discretion will be used to qualify when the rule should be enforced.

 

[Gerard]

That's not fair at all; what if one person intentionally token farmed but his opponent got duped into thinking it was a legitimate battle?

One person has to DQ, and the other one is the only one to get the 6/12/6, so either you go ahead and let the person win (getting nothing yourself) or convince the other one to do so (making him/her part of it), still, if a couple does this regularly then it's something that's obviously wrong

How about a battle when one pokemon never goes into the battlefield because his teammates won the battle for him, really, i have to let my pokemon die just to get my other pokes their EC/MC/DC, this really bugs me since they should be able to get their counters since they wanted to battle, but couldn't thanks to a strong pokemon who could 3-0 another team

 

[Spenstar]

If I may, I'd like to suggest a small buff to certain moves that goes as follows:

If a move has a chance to raise the user's stats, said boosts are maintained at the end of each round

examples: Meteor Mash's 10% chance of raising attack, Steel Wing and defense, the omni-stat boosters, (Ancientpower, Silver Wind, etc) and many others. For the most part, these are 10% chances, and what this does is it makes that lucky stat boost more rewarding. This does NOT apply to stat drops from attacks, though.

 

[Tortferngatr]

If I may, I'd like to suggest a small buff to certain moves that goes as follows:

If a move has a chance to raise the user's stats, said boosts are maintained at the end of each round

examples: Meteor Mash's 10% chance of raising attack, Steel Wing and defense, the omni-stat boosters, (Ancientpower, Silver Wind, etc) and many others. For the most part, these are 10% chances, and what this does is it makes that lucky stat boost more rewarding. This does NOT apply to stat drops from attacks, though.

...I've seen AncientPower get double hax and give a +2 boost in everything.

On a Pokemon with STAB Stored Power.

That is why I am against the idea of permanent move boosts from moves that have boosts as a secondary effect. The hax possibilities are neverending...

 

[Flamestrike]

Stat boosts being maintained isn't the same as them being permanent, it just means that if they get a second boost the first boost doesn't decay. That being said, I'm against it as well, simply because they're already pretty good, lasting at least 4 actions just like the +1/+1 moves. I don't feel they need to be any better.

 

[Gerard]

They are already lasting just like normal +1 boosts which I think is great, think about togekiss and his 20% chance of getting a boost (it works sometimes, i've done it), having them permanet would be awesome, but easily abusable

 

[TEA_DEMON]

i just noticed that reflect/light screen reduce damage by 5, yet a +2 boost only increases damage by 3. ingame these cancel each other out, but here the reflect is quite superior. this doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Deck Knight]

i just noticed that reflect/light screen reduce damage by 5, yet a +2 boost only increases damage by 3. ingame these cancel each other out, but here the reflect is quite superior. this doesn't seem right to me.

Reflect/Light Screen are scaled to halve the power of 10 Base Attack Power unSTABBEd moves, whereas Swords Dance is set to benefit moves of all strengths by +3 damage. Reflect/Light Screen are generally more powerful, especially since they last longer, however they can't be stacked and can be stolen by Snatch or broken by Brick Break. Only Featherdance and Charm can counter the effect of Swords Dance.

 

[Gerard]

Reflect/Light Screen are scaled to halve the power of 10 Base Attack Power unSTABBEd moves, whereas Swords Dance is set to benefit moves of all strengths by +3 damage. Reflect/Light Screen are generally more powerful, especially since they last longer, however they can't be stacked and can be stolen by Snatch or broken by Brick Break. Only Featherdance and Charm can counter the effect of Swords Dance.

Just to note that Snatch also works on stat up moves, but they are still good

 

[Objection]

It has come to my attention that apparently statuses do refresh themselves if inflicted over and over again. So, a mon that's at 15% paralysis that gets hit by Thunder Wave gets pushed up to 25% paralysis. However, here's a problem: by this reasoning, a Machamp could spam DynamicPunch to keep an opponent always confused while doing damage to said opponent. Halving the opponent's chance of doing anything useful each action while doing your own damage at the same time is simply broken.

Therefore, first I want to hear from Deck Knight himself whether or not this thing about status refreshing is true. Secondly, if it is, I want to know what he plans to do about DynamicPunch spam.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I don't like how you say "I want to know what he plans to do about DynamicPunch spam." You act as if you are automatically and perfectly justified in your worries, and thus that Deck is obliged to fix something when something may not be wrong at all. Do not act entitled. About the only thing I have to say is that DynamicPunch and friends cost too little energy, particularly because the only Pokemon that actually use them are those who can make it reliable enough to hit enemies. DynamicPunch, Inferno, and Zap Cannon should all cost 10 energy, not the 8 that they do currently. On another note, I don't find anything wrong with the status refreshing. Confusion refreshing is a fair tactic, albeit annoying, and makes sense within the flavor confines of ASB. It's also not broken, at least if DynamicPunch costs enough energy to really punish spamming it. There's nothing broken about it; the only legitimate claim here is that against DynamicPunch, which indeed is a bit cheesy for its effect given how cheap it is. It should cost the same as using Taunt or Encore or the like.

 

[Gerard]

Confusion refreshing is a fair tactic, albeit annoying, and makes sense within the flavor confines of ASB.

Putting your opponent to sleep, using a sub, then putting him back to sleep when needed is also a fair tactic, but it was too powerful, so now you can only fall sleep three times (which even now is really poweful) stopped by insomnia pokes, magic coat, etc...

So i don't think you should be forever confused, this really is only slightly better than sleep, at least sleep ends and most moves that cause it are not really reliably, but confusing permanently to your opponent is easily abusable since you can only use half your turns, not much worst than being sleep, and even if they cost more, the most common pokemon to use it has STAB on it so it's not that expensive, being able to just use DinamicOunch every two turns making on avergae lose a turn (and a half) per round is just too powerful, at least with stuff like flinching you have to use the same move again and again, with DP you just use it once every time it begins to clear

PS: Inferno and Zap cannon has not a way to be used reliably, since the only way is boosting yourself trhough Coil Up and Hone Claws, or using them as a part of a combo (trapping them with fire spin to make the target not move, etc...), so i don't think they should be increased since nothing with No Guard, Compoundeyes, etc.. gets them

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Considering the immense distribution of Magic Coat, Taunt, Protect, Substitute, and other such moves that screw it up, I don't understand how people complaining about sleep got it changed. Honestly, that limit should not be there; if you are bad enough or so poorly prepared that you get put to sleep three times in one match, you honestly have no right complaining about your losing.

That aside, the only problem with confusion is with DynamicPunch, not confusion itself. If a player spams Confuse Ray every two actions, it is moderately annoying, but not very threatening at all, since they're not actually dealing damage. DynamicPunch inflicts confusion and deals damage, which makes it immensely threatening to most Pokemon. It should cost more energy in order to make up for the fact that it is so threatening, but that's really all that should be done. Being confused in general is no worse than facing an opponent that has +1 Evasion, facing an opponent that has Sand Veil / Snow Cloak, facing an opponent who has used Sand-Attack on you, or any of these things. We do not and should not remove haxxy effects that are moderately annoying simply because they are moderately annoying.

PS: Inferno and Zap cannon has not a way to be used reliably, since the only way is boosting yourself trhough Coil Up and Hone Claws, or using them as a part of a combo (trapping them with fire spin to make the target not move, etc...), so i don't think they should be increased since nothing with No Guard, Compoundeyes, etc.. gets them

Consistency is important, and dictates that they should all be given equal treatment whatever happens.

 

[Deck Knight]

It has come to my attention that apparently statuses do refresh themselves if inflicted over and over again. So, a mon that's at 15% paralysis that gets hit by Thunder Wave gets pushed up to 25% paralysis. However, here's a problem: by this reasoning, a Machamp could spam DynamicPunch to keep an opponent always confused while doing damage to said opponent. Halving the opponent's chance of doing anything useful each action while doing your own damage at the same time is simply broken.

Therefore, first I want to hear from Deck Knight himself whether or not this thing about status refreshing is true. Secondly, if it is, I want to know what he plans to do about DynamicPunch spam.

Only Paralysis refreshes itself, and that's only if a move inflicts paralysis at a greater level than the present one. A Pokemon cannot be further confused while it is already confused, and at best multiple burns will increase the degree of burn up to its maximum level of 3. In any case, while there are several Pokemon that do exploit Dynamicpunch, bear in mind that No Guard affects both sides of the field. Absolutely nothing stops your own Pokemon from Dynamicpunching Machamp in the face (Golurk da best) and making it smash itself with fairly large confusion damage. You can also hit it with Hypnosis, Grasswhistle, Sing, and a whole host of low accuracy status effects. Yeah it has Guts too, but that's in All Abilities, and there's a bunch of mons that get big boosts there.

 

[Gerard]

Considering the immense distribution of Magic Coat, Taunt, Protect, Substitute, and other such moves that screw it up, I don't understand how people complaining about sleep got it changed. Honestly, that limit should not be there; if you are bad enough or so poorly prepared that you get put to sleep three times in one match, you honestly have no right complaining about your losing.

That aside, the only problem with confusion is with DynamicPunch, not confusion itself. If a player spams Confuse Ray every two actions, it is moderately annoying, but not very threatening at all, since they're not actually dealing damage. DynamicPunch inflicts confusion and deals damage, which makes it immensely threatening to most Pokemon. It should cost more energy in order to make up for the fact that it is so threatening, but that's really all that should be done. Being confused in general is no worse than facing an opponent that has +1 Evasion, facing an opponent that has Sand Veil / Snow Cloak, facing an opponent who has used Sand-Attack on you, or any of these things. We do not and should not remove haxxy effects that are moderately annoying simply because they are moderately annoying.

*Reuiniclus looks at you* ¬¬
There are pokes that have none of those moves or really will be sleep before they get to use them (bar protect), mostly gen 5

yeah I actually pick my pokes with Magic Coat or other way around stuff like spore (whirlwind), but really I agree in them costing more (dinamicpunch), but really 10 doesn't seem right to me, 12 is something I could agree since if you are doing hard damage and confusing with no drawbacks, you're doing too much, you're making your opponent lose a turn, and you're hitting with a 13 damage attack without taking everything else, and doing some extra 4 damage to your opponent every other turn, it's effect is comparable to Minimize, so it's fair they would get the same price, it's actually even better that v-create (the only attack with 12 energy cost) since you do about 2 attacks (the second being easily a 8+ BP attack) before your oponnet does one, getting a limit of confusion should at least be considered, since even burn and paralysis were nerfed, why is confusion still the same?

 

[Tortferngatr]

IRC PM to Deck

17:55 Tortferngatr BTW
17:55 Tortferngatr Hypothetical scenario
17:56 Tortferngatr and I am NOT proposing we do anything now.
17:56 Tortferngatr ...You know how Scizor got Bullet Punch as a levelup move in Pokemon Platinum, but couldn't in Diamond or Pearl?
17:57 Deck_Knight Yeah
17:57 Tortferngatr If, in a third version of Gen V, we got similar cases of mons gaining new levelup moves
17:57 Deck_Knight If there's a new game, movepool updates will be made with tutors. We'll address any movepool issues/fixes then. I'd still prefer it to be officialized in the CAP forum.
17:58 Tortferngatr yeah.
17:59 Tortferngatr so basically, THEN is when we get minor flavor updates Drill Run Colossoil?
17:59 Tortferngatr like Drill Run Colossoil?
18:00 Deck_Knight Probably, assuming people don't hate on me even more since I forgot Cyclohm should get Focus Blast
18:00 Deck_Knight (I'm kidding on the last one)
18:00 Tortferngatr ...can I point this out in SOTG?
18:02 Deck_Knight I guess, but I though size 7 Bold got the message across.
18:04 Tortferngatr I think "no" is different from "not now."
18:04 Tortferngatr but okay.
18:05 Deck_Knight I was considering "DIE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND SUNS" But that seemed a bit over the top.

Update (and final closure) to the CAP movepool issue. tl;dr version: quit worrying until the next main games are released to worry about movepool updates.

 

[Objection]

*Reuiniclus looks at you* ¬¬
There are pokes that have none of those moves or really will be sleep before they get to use them (bar protect), mostly gen 5

yeah I actually pick my pokes with Magic Coat or other way around stuff like spore (whirlwind), but really I agree in them costing more (dinamicpunch), but really 10 doesn't seem right to me, 12 is something I could agree since if you are doing hard damage and confusing with no drawbacks, you're doing too much, you're making your opponent lose a turn, and you're hitting with a 13 damage attack without taking everything else, and doing some extra 4 damage to your opponent every other turn, it's effect is comparable to Minimize, so it's fair they would get the same price, it's actually even better that v-create (the only attack with 12 energy cost) since you do about 2 attacks (the second being easily a 8+ BP attack) before your oponnet does one, getting a limit of confusion should at least be considered, since even burn and paralysis were nerfed, why is confusion still the same?

Firstly, Drain Punch and Giga Drain also cost 12 energy (though the users of these moves are usually fighting- and grass-types respectively).

Secondly, DynamicPunch normally has a very big drawback: 50% accuracy. It's just that No Guard removes this, so really one could consider No Guard to be the culprit here. If you then want DynamicPunch to cost more, then we could perhaps make an adjustment to No Guard such that all moves used by (and against?) a No Guard pokemon have an extra energy cost equal to (100 - move accuracy)/10 (rounding?). In such a scenario, DynamicPunch with its current energy cost would cost 13 energy when used by or against a No Guard pokemon. Of course, the denominator of 10 could be changed to something else. Outside of No Guard pokemon, the only things that could even consider using DynamicPunch frequently would have to spend at least one turn to get it to 100% accuracy (assuming they have the means to get it to 100% accuracy in the first place).

If, however, your issue is with the confusion status itself rather than No Guard DynamicPunch, then that's something else entirely.

 

[Spenstar]

And I think Drain Punch and Giga Drain (and all other draining moves) should cost a buttload less energy. Just for 50% draining, they cost at least TWICE what other moves of their power tier cost. Let's compare..

Drain Punch/Giga Drain/Horn Leech: 8 BP, 12 energy
Air Slash/Crunch/Crush Claw/etc: 8 BP, 6 energy

See how these compare? The draining effect isn't a big enough deal for this to happen. I propose a much more tame energy cost, like 8 or 9, instead of 12, due to the huge gap. Let's look at "tier 2" of draining moves:

Mega Drain/Leech Life: 6 BP, 9 energy
Ancientpower/Silver Wind/Shadow Punch/Faint Attack/Bite/etc: 6 BP, 4 energy
Bulldoze/Mud Shot/Icy Wind: 6 BP, 5 energy

in the case of ancientpower and family, that's OVER twice the energy cost, just to get some HP back. The moves with the guaranteed side effect cost a bit more energy, which is understandable, but 5 is still nothing compared to 9 energy, 5 or 6 energy should be the cost for these moves, closer to bulldoze and family. Finally...

Absorb: 4 BP, 6 energy
Acid/Bubble/Ember/etc: 4 BP, 2 energy
Acid Spray/Quick Attack and other priority: 4 BP, 3 energy

Acid Spray's side effect is a big deal, and it corrodes steel-types, also huge. so does acid. Yet those moves have a tiny energy cost while Absorb has three times the cost of normal 4 BP moves, and twice the cost of the one with more major side effects. This again is not fair. I propose that Absorb's energy cost be lowered to 3 or 4 to keep with the trend of normal moves of its base power with major side effects.

 

[Deck Knight]

Firstly, Drain Punch and Giga Drain also cost 12 energy (though the users of these moves are usually fighting- and grass-types respectively).

Secondly, DynamicPunch normally has a very big drawback: 50% accuracy. It's just that No Guard removes this, so really one could consider No Guard to be the culprit here. If you then want DynamicPunch to cost more, then we could perhaps make an adjustment to No Guard such that all moves used by (and against?) a No Guard pokemon have an extra energy cost equal to (100 - move accuracy)/10 (rounding?). In such a scenario, DynamicPunch with its current energy cost would cost 13 energy when used by or against a No Guard pokemon. Of course, the denominator of 10 could be changed to something else. Outside of No Guard pokemon, the only things that could even consider using DynamicPunch frequently would have to spend at least one turn to get it to 100% accuracy (assuming they have the means to get it to 100% accuracy in the first place).

If, however, your issue is with the confusion status itself rather than No Guard DynamicPunch, then that's something else entirely.

The number of Pokemon that can get Dynamicpunch's accuracy to 100% by themselves is vanishingly small. Of these there are a few types:

Pokemon with No Guard: Machamp and Golurk, obv.

Pokemon with Telekinesis and No Guard: http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/searc...hod=egg&move_method=tutor&move_method=machine

Basically Alakazam/Clefable/Dusknoir/Gengar/Golduck/Grumpig/Hypno/Jirachi/Jynx/Medicham/Metagross/Mew/Mewtwo/Mr. Mime/Sableye/Slowbro/Slowking

+Spe Pokemon after Hone Claws with sufficiently high speed:

Weavile line: 100%+
Sceptile line: 100%+
Ambipom: 100%+
Charizard/Mew/Slaking: 96%
Primeape: 94.5%
Furret: 91.5%
Nidoking/Nidoqueen/Golduck: 90%
Blaziken/Feraligatr: 88.5%

There's more Pokemon with the combined moves, it just gets lowered down to below Fire Blast accuracy by then, and this is after a turn of setup. Any non- +Spe mon gets Dynamicpunch's accuracy to 75% after a Hone Claws.

Mons with Mind Reader + Dynamicpunch: Poliwrath, Hitmonlee, Breloom, Medicham.

So yeah, I suppose when you make a list exhaustive and add boosts it works out to a fairly large number, but nothing does that well with it out of the box.

And I think Drain Punch and Giga Drain (and all other draining moves) should cost a buttload less energy. Just for 50% draining, they cost at least TWICE what other moves of their power tier cost. Let's compare..

Drain Punch/Giga Drain/Horn Leech: 8 BP, 12 energy
Air Slash/Crunch/Crush Claw/etc: 8 BP, 6 energy

See how these compare? The draining effect isn't a big enough deal for this to happen. I propose a much more tame energy cost, like 8 or 9, instead of 12, due to the huge gap. Let's look at "tier 2" of draining moves:

Mega Drain/Leech Life: 6 BP, 9 energy
Ancientpower/Silver Wind/Shadow Punch/Faint Attack/Bite/etc: 6 BP, 4 energy
Bulldoze/Mud Shot/Icy Wind: 6 BP, 5 energy

in the case of ancientpower and family, that's OVER twice the energy cost, just to get some HP back. The moves with the guaranteed side effect cost a bit more energy, which is understandable, but 5 is still nothing compared to 9 energy, 5 or 6 energy should be the cost for these moves, closer to bulldoze and family. Finally...

Absorb: 4 BP, 6 energy
Acid/Bubble/Ember/etc: 4 BP, 2 energy
Acid Spray/Quick Attack and other priority: 4 BP, 3 energy

Acid Spray's side effect is a big deal, and it corrodes steel-types, also huge. so does acid. Yet those moves have a tiny energy cost while Absorb has three times the cost of normal 4 BP moves, and twice the cost of the one with more major side effects. This again is not fair. I propose that Absorb's energy cost be lowered to 3 or 4 to keep with the trend of normal moves of its base power with major side effects.

You do realize that the HP draining effect makes these moves effectively have 1.5x their normal Base Attack Power, right? You're comparing them to counterparts well below their power ability. As it stands, their Energy Cost equals the adjusted Base Attack Power after factoring in the healing element.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Drain Punch, Giga Drain, and Horn Leech are niche moves. They are only worth using when super effective or otherwise boosted. They have the capacity with proper building to restore more HP than a single action of Rest, and in some cases as much as moves like Recover. They absolutely should continue costing 12 energy in lieu of this; if you want a general damaging move, you shouldn't be using Giga Drain or Drain Punch or Horn leech in the first place. There are better options for that.

 

[Gerard]

If, however, your issue is with the confusion status itself rather than No Guard DynamicPunch, then that's something else entirely.

My problem is Damage + Confusion, if i want to confuse i use Confuse Ray, doing no damage and being fairly easy to reflect or stop, and other damaging moves that have confusion as a side effect have it at about 20% max, DinamicPunch is really a very effective move, yeah, i frogot about Giga Drain and friends, but still DinamicPunch is as good as those two if not more, since you get at least a free turn (you have at least a 2 turn confusion and on average you'll hit yourself one, imagine using something like cross chop on the free turn, it's as good as if you've used two DP and your foe has attacked you just once

I like your solution since it's an actually pretty nice one, not harming the people that would like to challenge their luck, but really, the +Spd nature makes them easier to spam with no regrets, and Hone Claws makes them easier to do so, so really making the move more expensive is one of the only ways to make it as costy as it is good

Edit: Doing some calcs, on average you get a 1.5 free turns every time you get the confusion rolling, so if you get 2 DinamicPunches, you get 3 free turns on average, this means that confusing your foe effectively gives you 3 cost-less subs, this is just to good when you do about 13+ damage on anything that doesn't ressist it, and even if they do, unless they are immune, they are gonna lose 1.5 turns, in a game when one turn can easily make a difference, this really sounds like DinamicPunch should be nerfed somehow (increasing it's cost to 12 is a really nice solution) since really, every dissadventage of No Guard is removed thanks to DP
-

 

[Venser]

Has there really been an issue with intentional DQs, which i'm assuming is the reason for the change? It doesn't really seem fair to people who are like on the 4-th/5th mon of a 6v6 singles or something and then just like go to the hospital or some shit like that.

:(

 

[Flamestrike]

Is there any particular reason that burns need to specify a part of the body now as opposed to just affecting the entire Pokemon? No battler ever specifies where they want to have their burn land from what I've seen, which means refs either ignore it completely or have to decide themselves where it lands. IMO it should just go back to affecting the Pokemon's entire body and reducing damage according to the degree of burn (1 BAP for 1st degree, 2 BAP for 2nd degree, and 3 BAP for third)