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Sun / Moon In-Game Tier List
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
I think Marill could definitely be A-tier, based on its performance in XY. And I found Fairy STAB to be super useful with all the Dark types and Fighting types running around (one of the main reasons Ribombee is so high). Also, it can make better use of its ability than Araquanid can. Still, I'd have to actually use one in-game to make a really definite conclusion.
And I now spend about 75% of my waking hours whining about Parasect being tiered too low, so I'm not sure I'll ever get around to it.
And I now spend about 75% of my waking hours whining about Parasect being tiered too low, so I'm not sure I'll ever get around to it.
Oricorio should definitely be higher. It is EXTREMELY fast AND gives you the chance to CHANGE ITS TYPING during your run by applying nectar to it. Furthermore, the TM for Acrobatics is available very early so Oricorio starts with a strong STAB and can easily run something like: Revelation Dance/U-Turn/Acrobatics/Roost to not only gain momentum but also just hit everything very, very hard.
SUMMARY:
1) The value Oricorio has in being able to change its typing throughout the game should not be understated. For this reason alone, Oricorio has absolutely no business being in C tier where it currently stands.
2) Acrobatics is available VERY early.
3) Oricorio is very, very fast and can not only U-Turn out quickly but also has access to reliable recovery.
SUMMARY:
1) The value Oricorio has in being able to change its typing throughout the game should not be understated. For this reason alone, Oricorio has absolutely no business being in C tier where it currently stands.
2) Acrobatics is available VERY early.
3) Oricorio is very, very fast and can not only U-Turn out quickly but also has access to reliable recovery.
I feel like Chinchou should move up to B tier. It comes fairly early, and with stab scald and volt switch. It's stats are only decent, but what makes Lanturn so good is its phenominal typing and movepool. Both of it's weaknesses are handled by a grass type, so its easy to fit on your team too.
Before I used Lanturn (which I got very late because I didn't know where to catch Chinchou), I used corsola. Corsola really surprised me with how useful it was throughout mid game. Early scald is a godsend for every water type, and Corsola is no exception. It gets recover early, and speed control with rock tomb. It's defenses are solid, and it's special attack is good ebough to abuse scald with. Corsola definitely deserves to go up one tier imo.
I also used an Umbreon throughout the game, and it really dissapointed me. It really isn't as bulky as its stats would suggest, and even with screech + bite, it doesn't do much damage. It doesn't get any decent stab until very late, at which point you would have likely already dumped Umbreon for something better. There's no way thay it's better in game than Leafeon, which is actually decent.
Before I used Lanturn (which I got very late because I didn't know where to catch Chinchou), I used corsola. Corsola really surprised me with how useful it was throughout mid game. Early scald is a godsend for every water type, and Corsola is no exception. It gets recover early, and speed control with rock tomb. It's defenses are solid, and it's special attack is good ebough to abuse scald with. Corsola definitely deserves to go up one tier imo.
I also used an Umbreon throughout the game, and it really dissapointed me. It really isn't as bulky as its stats would suggest, and even with screech + bite, it doesn't do much damage. It doesn't get any decent stab until very late, at which point you would have likely already dumped Umbreon for something better. There's no way thay it's better in game than Leafeon, which is actually decent.
Leafeon seems to still be stuck with the same problem several of the Eeveelutions classically had - great stats, horrible movepool.
It learns Razor Leaf upon evolving, and then is stuck with that as its only physical STAB until 45. If nothing else at least unlike Glaceon, Leafeon is actually available the second you can catch Eevee
It learns Razor Leaf upon evolving, and then is stuck with that as its only physical STAB until 45. If nothing else at least unlike Glaceon, Leafeon is actually available the second you can catch Eevee
I had some pretty decent success with Leafeon, it kicks butt when you first evolve it, and stays relevant for a long time. Unfortunately, like you said, its movepool is horrendous. Grass moves, Normal moves, X-Scissor when you get the TM, and Bite.
Still, it was about on par with Oricorio, and performed very similarly in a lot of respects besides the type difference. Ori gets Sing, Leafy gets Grass Whistle. Ori gets Roost, Leafy gets Synthesis. They about tie in regards to speed, get boosting moves, and just spam their STAB.
Oricorio has a better type (types?) for sure, but Leafeon's stats are considerably better, so it generally evens out.
Still, it was about on par with Oricorio, and performed very similarly in a lot of respects besides the type difference. Ori gets Sing, Leafy gets Grass Whistle. Ori gets Roost, Leafy gets Synthesis. They about tie in regards to speed, get boosting moves, and just spam their STAB.
Oricorio has a better type (types?) for sure, but Leafeon's stats are considerably better, so it generally evens out.
Going to jump on the Leafeon train. I know that Leafeon's movepool is garbage, but it honestly gets what it needs to contribute. You can evolve it almost as soon as you get it, and doing so gives you a 525 base stat monster pretty early in the game. Razor Leaf is good STAB early on, and it demolishes things for a good while just off its base stats alone. Even later on, 95 base speed is enough to outpace almost everything in Alola, and it's Attack and Defense are both very good. It admittedly suffers from a dip in power around Aether headquarters, where there are some poor type match ups and Leafeon is still leaning on Razor Leaf for STAB. However, it immediately gets strong again once it gets Leaf Blade, and doesn't really fall off for the rest of the game. I'd argue Leafeon fits the C-tier better than D. It's move pool is poor, but it's still good enough to contribute for most of the game thanks to good base stats and its early accessibility. I personally thought mine was one of the biggest contributors to my team, but it was also Adamant with above average IVs so I don't want to oversell it.
At any rate, I don't see any way it's a full tier worse than Umbreon. In an efficient run, a pokemon that's relying on Feint Attack off 65 base attack is pretty awful. It doesn't matter if nothing can kill you if you can't kill anything back. Hell, I'd almost argue that Umbreon is worse than most of the stuff in D, but haven't used it enough to say that assertively.
At any rate, I don't see any way it's a full tier worse than Umbreon. In an efficient run, a pokemon that's relying on Feint Attack off 65 base attack is pretty awful. It doesn't matter if nothing can kill you if you can't kill anything back. Hell, I'd almost argue that Umbreon is worse than most of the stuff in D, but haven't used it enough to say that assertively.
Please stop bringing up Roost/Synthesis/Softboiled/Recover/Heal Order in these threads as positive points. The only Pokemon they become a positive on are those that can stall ingame.
Use another attacking move.
Items are far better unless you are purposely avoiding using them. We get LOADS of money in SM. We don't need to keep a healing move on a Pokemon unless you want to breed it on later. It shouldn't factor into a Pokemon's placement at all. Hell, I thought Blissey might gain some points for being able to use Softboiled outside of battle, but it can't anymore (idk when that was removed).
On the point of Blissey, I am using one ingame at the moment. I admit I bred it (didn't check HP) and traded the egg over, but I was forced to keep it at Lv 12 or so (needed to turn off XP Share), so I could make sure I got Softboiled/the better moves Chansey gets but Happiny does not. You can get it pretty much ASAP if you manage to get Happiny in through SOS chaining on a Pichu. It's an SOS call for any Baby Pokemon as far as I can tell.
I think F tier is a bit of a miss-sell really. Once it evolves around the Ranch (I kept mine at Lv 11 till then to get the free Oval Stone), I got Chansey and then Blissey immediately afterwards. Lv 14 Blissey is ridiculous. I lucked out somewhat and got HP Rock, which has been actually really good. Between that and Charm I am able to wall pretty much whatever I want too. I'm about to fight Wishiwashi Totem, and I am not worried in the slightest (might take a bit of time to kill it). It only has Water Gun as an attacking move, and I am pretty sure I can sit there all day as long as I get a Wishiwashi spawn and not an Alomamola spawn.
Toxic doesn't come till much later, but so far I am having fun watching things to teeny amounts of damage.
Rest of my team is currently Mareanie, Turtonator, Minior, Dartrix and Cutiefly. Cutiefly is surprisingly good. Draining Kiss this early is awesome, as well as decent (if very low PP) STAB in Silver Wind. I would advise not getting rid of Struggle Bug until a better move comes along. Can't really talk about the others yet as I haven't reached where they are actually available. If getting the parent Mareanie is as bad as it was when I was trying for one, I agree with where it is currently placed.
Use another attacking move.
Items are far better unless you are purposely avoiding using them. We get LOADS of money in SM. We don't need to keep a healing move on a Pokemon unless you want to breed it on later. It shouldn't factor into a Pokemon's placement at all. Hell, I thought Blissey might gain some points for being able to use Softboiled outside of battle, but it can't anymore (idk when that was removed).
On the point of Blissey, I am using one ingame at the moment. I admit I bred it (didn't check HP) and traded the egg over, but I was forced to keep it at Lv 12 or so (needed to turn off XP Share), so I could make sure I got Softboiled/the better moves Chansey gets but Happiny does not. You can get it pretty much ASAP if you manage to get Happiny in through SOS chaining on a Pichu. It's an SOS call for any Baby Pokemon as far as I can tell.
I think F tier is a bit of a miss-sell really. Once it evolves around the Ranch (I kept mine at Lv 11 till then to get the free Oval Stone), I got Chansey and then Blissey immediately afterwards. Lv 14 Blissey is ridiculous. I lucked out somewhat and got HP Rock, which has been actually really good. Between that and Charm I am able to wall pretty much whatever I want too. I'm about to fight Wishiwashi Totem, and I am not worried in the slightest (might take a bit of time to kill it). It only has Water Gun as an attacking move, and I am pretty sure I can sit there all day as long as I get a Wishiwashi spawn and not an Alomamola spawn.
Toxic doesn't come till much later, but so far I am having fun watching things to teeny amounts of damage.
Rest of my team is currently Mareanie, Turtonator, Minior, Dartrix and Cutiefly. Cutiefly is surprisingly good. Draining Kiss this early is awesome, as well as decent (if very low PP) STAB in Silver Wind. I would advise not getting rid of Struggle Bug until a better move comes along. Can't really talk about the others yet as I haven't reached where they are actually available. If getting the parent Mareanie is as bad as it was when I was trying for one, I agree with where it is currently placed.
The only problem is that Shellder and Cloyster can't learn Scald. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Go figure. I was surprised too.
Yeah honestly I was excited to have Roost on my Decidueye, but especially lategame it's actually really hard to find times to use it :0 Maybe this is reflective more of Ciddy's typing but it was really hard to find openings to use it for me as I recall. Honestly Leaf Blade/Spirit Shackle/Low Sweep/Sucker Punch is probably the best way to go with him at least.
In my experience if I was ever in a spot to use a healing move, I was probably going to need to keep using said healing move as i get into the dread hurt by opponent to low, heal, hurt by opponent to low, heal loop. Assuming of course that I would heal enough in the first place and not just, you know, die.
Surskit for B Tier
Availability: You can get it at Brooklet Hill. It has a painfully low encounter chance (10% at night only), but this should be right before Totem Wishiwashi.
Stats: Surskit has garbage for stats, but it evolves at level 22, the same as Aranaquid, they even have the same BST.
Masquerain's stats are meh. I'm glad it recently got buffed.
Typing: Bug-Water is fairly decent, having 5 resistances, but once it evolves into Masquerain, it has one of the worst typings ever imaginable. Bug-Flying has only a few resistances, and five weaknesses (as well as a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock!)
Movepool: It's riddled with garbage for level-up moves until it evolves into Masquerain, to which its earliest stabs are Bubble(start), Bubblebeam (Level 17), Air Cutter (22, immediately after evolving), and Silver Wind (32, Masquerain Only). However, its TM movepool is amongst one of the best in the game, similar to Araquanid. Examples include Scald, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Hyper Beam, even Blizzard!
You can even get Scald right before going to Brooklet Hill. Combine with Waterium Z (which you get right after and it becomes dangerous fast.
Notable battles:
Wishiwashi/Wishiwashi/Alomomola:
Surskit struggles against Totem Wishiwashi, unless you went the extra mile to evolve it early.
Salazzle/Salandit:
Surskit/Masquerain has absolutely no issue owning Salazzle, as well as the Trial Marowak. You may want to watch out if you overleveled and evolved Surskit, as now it has a weakness to Fire, but it is NOT worth stopping evolution, as you'll miss out on Air Cutter.
Lurantis/Trumbeak/Castform(usually fire)
Lurantis and Castform are screwed against Masquerain, with reasons being resistances and weaknesses respectively. Masquerain also has Air Cutter to deal with the trial Parasect/Shiinotic.
The main issue is that god-forsaken Trumbeak. Not only does it have Pluck, but it also has ROCK BLAST as well.
Vikavolt/Charjabug/Charjabug:
Masquerain must watch out for Spark from Vikavolt and one of the Charjabugs. It has a neat immunity to Mud Shot from the other Charjabug, but at this point, Masquerain will probably get two-hitted from +2 Charge Spark.
Mimikyu/Haunter/Gengar
Masquerain can't do jack with its newly-acquired Silver Wind, so this is another battle that can't be assisted well without spamming Scald.
Kommo-o/Hakamo-o/Scizor
Masquerain can pretty much meat-shield the entire trial, due to a nifty 4x resistance to Sky Uppercut. It can also have an offensive presence with Air Cutter, though it can't do much to Scizor.
Elite 4 Hala:
Just like above, Masquerain can meatshield the entire fight up until Crabominable. Not to mention the fact that Masquerain now has access to Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz, you should own this one easily.
Elite 4 Kahili and Olivia
You're screwed royally. Both share a glaring type that Masquerain is weak to. Kahili's Toucannon has Rock and Beak Blast, so keep that in mind.
Elite 4 Acerola
Wait until Sableye, Driftblim, and Froslass fall, then use Masquerain to attack Palosssand. If you're really feeling it, you could try setting up on Dhelmise (or possibly Sableye) and pwning with whatever move is desired.
Champion Kukui
Sadly, Masquerain can't contest most of Kukui's Pokemon, and this is worse if you don't kill Lycanroc, as it has STEALTH ROCK.
Even with Lycanroc dead, you've still got to deal with Ninetales, Braviary, and Magnezone, as well as Incineroar if you picked Rowlet.
Post-game Challengers:
Hau:
Masquerain should have no issue KOing the Eeveelution and Komala, as well as Decidueye (if you picked Litten). Masquerain can't contest Alolan Raichu or Incineroar either, unless you set up on Leafeon or Vaporeon (Popolio and Litten respectively), and Crabominable has Stone Edge.
Sophoceles:
You're screwed. If you're feeling lucky, you could possibly KO Alolan Golem.
Ryuki:
Masquerain used Ice Beam!
Gladion:
Wait until Crobat and Weavile fall. That's your cue to get in, and show that Lucario who's boss.
Also, if you picked Popolio or Litten, you could take on Silvally 1v1.
Molayne:
Wait until only Metagross and Alolan Dugtrio are alive, and then spam Scald/Hydro Pump and Bug Buzz.
Plumeria:
Alolan Muk has Rock Slide, so watch out for that.
You can also completely screw Salazzle 1v1.
Hapu:
Hapu is screwed against Energy Ball or Scald spam.
Just be careful against Mudsdale, Alolan Dugtrio, and Flygon, as they have rock type moves.
Faba:
You can screw him over with Bug Buzz. You should probably take out the Raichu before setting up.
Tristan:
Wait until Emolga falls, then you can just sweep Sharpedo, Exeggutor, and Magmortar.
Spam Scald against the Tauros to burn it, disregard the fact that it has Rock Slide, as I'd rather have another Pokemon sweep a heavily crippled Tauros.
Kukui:
Identical to champion fight.
Stats: Surskit has garbage for stats, but it evolves at level 22, the same as Aranaquid, they even have the same BST.
Masquerain's stats are meh. I'm glad it recently got buffed.
Typing: Bug-Water is fairly decent, having 5 resistances, but once it evolves into Masquerain, it has one of the worst typings ever imaginable. Bug-Flying has only a few resistances, and five weaknesses (as well as a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock!)
Movepool: It's riddled with garbage for level-up moves until it evolves into Masquerain, to which its earliest stabs are Bubble(start), Bubblebeam (Level 17), Air Cutter (22, immediately after evolving), and Silver Wind (32, Masquerain Only). However, its TM movepool is amongst one of the best in the game, similar to Araquanid. Examples include Scald, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Hyper Beam, even Blizzard!
You can even get Scald right before going to Brooklet Hill. Combine with Waterium Z (which you get right after and it becomes dangerous fast.
Notable battles:
Wishiwashi/Wishiwashi/Alomomola:
Surskit struggles against Totem Wishiwashi, unless you went the extra mile to evolve it early.
Salazzle/Salandit:
Surskit/Masquerain has absolutely no issue owning Salazzle, as well as the Trial Marowak. You may want to watch out if you overleveled and evolved Surskit, as now it has a weakness to Fire, but it is NOT worth stopping evolution, as you'll miss out on Air Cutter.
Lurantis/Trumbeak/Castform(usually fire)
Lurantis and Castform are screwed against Masquerain, with reasons being resistances and weaknesses respectively. Masquerain also has Air Cutter to deal with the trial Parasect/Shiinotic.
The main issue is that god-forsaken Trumbeak. Not only does it have Pluck, but it also has ROCK BLAST as well.
Vikavolt/Charjabug/Charjabug:
Masquerain must watch out for Spark from Vikavolt and one of the Charjabugs. It has a neat immunity to Mud Shot from the other Charjabug, but at this point, Masquerain will probably get two-hitted from +2 Charge Spark.
Mimikyu/Haunter/Gengar
Masquerain can't do jack with its newly-acquired Silver Wind, so this is another battle that can't be assisted well without spamming Scald.
Kommo-o/Hakamo-o/Scizor
Masquerain can pretty much meat-shield the entire trial, due to a nifty 4x resistance to Sky Uppercut. It can also have an offensive presence with Air Cutter, though it can't do much to Scizor.
Elite 4 Hala:
Just like above, Masquerain can meatshield the entire fight up until Crabominable. Not to mention the fact that Masquerain now has access to Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz, you should own this one easily.
Elite 4 Kahili and Olivia
You're screwed royally. Both share a glaring type that Masquerain is weak to. Kahili's Toucannon has Rock and Beak Blast, so keep that in mind.
Elite 4 Acerola
Wait until Sableye, Driftblim, and Froslass fall, then use Masquerain to attack Palosssand. If you're really feeling it, you could try setting up on Dhelmise (or possibly Sableye) and pwning with whatever move is desired.
Champion Kukui
Sadly, Masquerain can't contest most of Kukui's Pokemon, and this is worse if you don't kill Lycanroc, as it has STEALTH ROCK.
Even with Lycanroc dead, you've still got to deal with Ninetales, Braviary, and Magnezone, as well as Incineroar if you picked Rowlet.
Post-game Challengers:
Hau:
Masquerain should have no issue KOing the Eeveelution and Komala, as well as Decidueye (if you picked Litten). Masquerain can't contest Alolan Raichu or Incineroar either, unless you set up on Leafeon or Vaporeon (Popolio and Litten respectively), and Crabominable has Stone Edge.
Sophoceles:
You're screwed. If you're feeling lucky, you could possibly KO Alolan Golem.
Ryuki:
Masquerain used Ice Beam!
Gladion:
Wait until Crobat and Weavile fall. That's your cue to get in, and show that Lucario who's boss.
Also, if you picked Popolio or Litten, you could take on Silvally 1v1.
Molayne:
Wait until only Metagross and Alolan Dugtrio are alive, and then spam Scald/Hydro Pump and Bug Buzz.
Plumeria:
Alolan Muk has Rock Slide, so watch out for that.
You can also completely screw Salazzle 1v1.
Hapu:
Hapu is screwed against Energy Ball or Scald spam.
Just be careful against Mudsdale, Alolan Dugtrio, and Flygon, as they have rock type moves.
Faba:
You can screw him over with Bug Buzz. You should probably take out the Raichu before setting up.
Tristan:
Wait until Emolga falls, then you can just sweep Sharpedo, Exeggutor, and Magmortar.
Spam Scald against the Tauros to burn it, disregard the fact that it has Rock Slide, as I'd rather have another Pokemon sweep a heavily crippled Tauros.
Kukui:
Identical to champion fight.
I personally feel that Meowth should drop down to C or D rank.
Name: Meowth
Availability:Very early on, right by the school. 30% encounter rate is very solid.
Stats: And here's where the problems begin. Meowth has garbage stats, even as a Persian. It's only solid stat is its speed. Everything else is mediocre at best and pathetic at worst.
Typing: Pure dark type is sorta nifty... but not here. Not with fighting types/bugs/fairies around every turn, and Meowth has very little to deal with them.
Movepool: Okay, you got Fake Out and Bite for early on, and arguably Hidden Power depending on what type it is... and that's it. You're not running any coverage until Aerial Ace/U-turn, and later on Power Gem, with the former being in the mid to late 20's most likely. Until then, Bite is your best option, and while it starts off okay... things rapidly drop off a cliff.
Notable Battles:
Captain Ilima: Yungoos is manageable, but Smeargle will make you cry. whatever coverage move it has, ontop of tackle, is going to hurt.
Totem Raticate/Gumshoos: They hit harder than you, are bulkier than you, and bite hax can only get you so far until you get pounded into the dirt.
Hau: Early matches, it's a mixed bag. Later on once Raichu appears is where Meowth starts to shine, easily taking down the rodent with Fake Out+Bite or whatever dark move you have by then. Starter is iffy, and eeveelution depends, though most are going to hit you harder than you hit them.
Hala: NO.
Gladion: Zubat is easy, as is Golbat thanks to Power Gem. Sneasel and Weavile also drop to Power Gem, but beware the Lucario. Type Null and Silvally are too bulky and hit too hard.
Totem Wishiwashi: Once again, bite hax can only get you so far before you get dropped by Water Gun
Totem Salazzle: Flame Burst>Meowth
Totem Lurantis: NO
Plumeria: You don't have Power Gem yet, so Golbat is better left to someone else. If you have Persian by now, it should be able to handle Salandit, especially with a good HP type. Later on, the fight does get easier thanks to Power Gem, but Persian might be taking a hit or two...
Olivia: NO. Nosepass WILL live a hit and paralyze you, and Boldore WILL try to lower your accuracy with Mud Slap. Also, Lycanroc hits WAY too hard.
Molayne: Metang is doable, but Persian is going to be taking some hits from it first. Skarmory and Dugtrio are technically doable, especially with Snarl, but there's better options.
Totem Vikavolt: Even with Power Gem, NO. Vikavolt will live a hit and Bug Bite you for massive damage, and the Charjabug love to cripple you.
Guzma: Golisopod used First Impression!
Totem Mimikyu: NO. Play Rough is going to murder Persian before it can even do damage to it.
Team Skull: Perisan does well here... but so does almost anything else.
Nanu: Sableye is manageable, but Krokorok and the other Persian are going to be hitting you harder than you hit them.
Team Aether: Faba drops like a rock to Persian, but considering how varied the mons they use are, be careful.
Lusamine: Clefable nukes you, Milotic nukes you, Mismagius dies, Lilligant nukes you, and Bewear nukes you. STAY AWAY FROM THIS CRAZY WOMAN.
Hapu: Persian can't hit hard enough, so it's going to be hurting, especially from now in. Nasty Plot sorta helps... but you gotta live a hit first, and that's a tall order, especially against Mudsdale and co.
Totem Kommo-o: NO
Elite 4: Acerola is doable with a little help, you can sweep through Kahili with Nasty Plot+Thunderbolt/Power Gem, Hala and Olivia are NO.
Professor Kukui: Lycanroc hits harder than you, Snorlax laughs at you, Ninetails murders you, Magnezone has Mirror Coat to screw you over, Braviary can live a hit and smash you apart with Brave Bird, and only Decidueye is doable among the starters.
Additional Information: Meowth has two primary abilities for use: Fur Coat, and Technician. You are either going to have a decently bulky pokemon with bad offenses, or a decently hard hitting mon with paper thin defenses. You can't get both, and even with Technician, Meowth just can't last into the late game outside of laughing at Hau's Raichu. It struggles to hold a solid niche for itself due to how the game is laid out, and if you try to make it do more than it realistically can, you will find yourself with a dead cat more often than not.
Name: Meowth
Availability:Very early on, right by the school. 30% encounter rate is very solid.
Stats: And here's where the problems begin. Meowth has garbage stats, even as a Persian. It's only solid stat is its speed. Everything else is mediocre at best and pathetic at worst.
Typing: Pure dark type is sorta nifty... but not here. Not with fighting types/bugs/fairies around every turn, and Meowth has very little to deal with them.
Movepool: Okay, you got Fake Out and Bite for early on, and arguably Hidden Power depending on what type it is... and that's it. You're not running any coverage until Aerial Ace/U-turn, and later on Power Gem, with the former being in the mid to late 20's most likely. Until then, Bite is your best option, and while it starts off okay... things rapidly drop off a cliff.
Notable Battles:
Captain Ilima: Yungoos is manageable, but Smeargle will make you cry. whatever coverage move it has, ontop of tackle, is going to hurt.
Totem Raticate/Gumshoos: They hit harder than you, are bulkier than you, and bite hax can only get you so far until you get pounded into the dirt.
Hau: Early matches, it's a mixed bag. Later on once Raichu appears is where Meowth starts to shine, easily taking down the rodent with Fake Out+Bite or whatever dark move you have by then. Starter is iffy, and eeveelution depends, though most are going to hit you harder than you hit them.
Hala: NO.
Gladion: Zubat is easy, as is Golbat thanks to Power Gem. Sneasel and Weavile also drop to Power Gem, but beware the Lucario. Type Null and Silvally are too bulky and hit too hard.
Totem Wishiwashi: Once again, bite hax can only get you so far before you get dropped by Water Gun
Totem Salazzle: Flame Burst>Meowth
Totem Lurantis: NO
Plumeria: You don't have Power Gem yet, so Golbat is better left to someone else. If you have Persian by now, it should be able to handle Salandit, especially with a good HP type. Later on, the fight does get easier thanks to Power Gem, but Persian might be taking a hit or two...
Olivia: NO. Nosepass WILL live a hit and paralyze you, and Boldore WILL try to lower your accuracy with Mud Slap. Also, Lycanroc hits WAY too hard.
Molayne: Metang is doable, but Persian is going to be taking some hits from it first. Skarmory and Dugtrio are technically doable, especially with Snarl, but there's better options.
Totem Vikavolt: Even with Power Gem, NO. Vikavolt will live a hit and Bug Bite you for massive damage, and the Charjabug love to cripple you.
Guzma: Golisopod used First Impression!
Totem Mimikyu: NO. Play Rough is going to murder Persian before it can even do damage to it.
Team Skull: Perisan does well here... but so does almost anything else.
Nanu: Sableye is manageable, but Krokorok and the other Persian are going to be hitting you harder than you hit them.
Team Aether: Faba drops like a rock to Persian, but considering how varied the mons they use are, be careful.
Lusamine: Clefable nukes you, Milotic nukes you, Mismagius dies, Lilligant nukes you, and Bewear nukes you. STAY AWAY FROM THIS CRAZY WOMAN.
Hapu: Persian can't hit hard enough, so it's going to be hurting, especially from now in. Nasty Plot sorta helps... but you gotta live a hit first, and that's a tall order, especially against Mudsdale and co.
Totem Kommo-o: NO
Elite 4: Acerola is doable with a little help, you can sweep through Kahili with Nasty Plot+Thunderbolt/Power Gem, Hala and Olivia are NO.
Professor Kukui: Lycanroc hits harder than you, Snorlax laughs at you, Ninetails murders you, Magnezone has Mirror Coat to screw you over, Braviary can live a hit and smash you apart with Brave Bird, and only Decidueye is doable among the starters.
Additional Information: Meowth has two primary abilities for use: Fur Coat, and Technician. You are either going to have a decently bulky pokemon with bad offenses, or a decently hard hitting mon with paper thin defenses. You can't get both, and even with Technician, Meowth just can't last into the late game outside of laughing at Hau's Raichu. It struggles to hold a solid niche for itself due to how the game is laid out, and if you try to make it do more than it realistically can, you will find yourself with a dead cat more often than not.
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Slight correction: Surskit is a 40% encounter on the water at night. 10% is only if you try to get it out of the grass. Still readily available in the same time period since yo uget Lapras like one screen later.
I totally agree with the Meowth drop, I didn't notice it was tiered so high or I would have jumped in. Based on my experience I would say D, although I'm willing to hear other opinions. But B is really overselling it - it was way worse than Parasect or Oricorio, for example, and those are C and D tier.
Going through my run, I ended up ditching Persian. It wasn't pulling its weight on a team including a Rufflet, a Leafeon and a Parasect despite being about the same level. I guess it would have done fairly well in psychic-filled Aether Paradise (besides Lusamine, as Giratina93 pointed out) but mine only stayed on the team until about halfway through Ula'ula. Incredibly underwhelming.
Going through my run, I ended up ditching Persian. It wasn't pulling its weight on a team including a Rufflet, a Leafeon and a Parasect despite being about the same level. I guess it would have done fairly well in psychic-filled Aether Paradise (besides Lusamine, as Giratina93 pointed out) but mine only stayed on the team until about halfway through Ula'ula. Incredibly underwhelming.
If we're considering Stall a viable choice, Pyukumuku should definitely move up from F-Tier. Soak and Toxic make certain any single 'mon that goes against regardless of type will die in at most 7 turns. Recover and Protect (and the easily obtained leftovers) lessen monetary burden, and the fast exp curve make this thing pretty damn good at what it does; soaking up damage and looking adorable. Hilariously easy to get Leppa berries boost this guy too by letting you heal it up on route trash instead of wasting money, if you're more of a miser.
Versus Blissey, I'd say Pyukumuku is the well-rounded choice. 55/130/130 defenses versus the 255/10/135 make Pyukumuku much more of a reliable wall for the entire game versus the more special slant Blissey has.
On top of this, there's health and economics: A single hyper potion would bring Pyukumuku up to full health for virtually the entire game up to the Elite Four, whereas it would take multiple to fix Blissey's health issue, meaning more turns wasted healing and more cost.
Now, of course the little cucumber isn't going to be that phenomenal. It's late on the second island and is the Wobbuffet of the Sea, meaning it's totally dead weight until you get Toxic. That being said, I feel like it should be at least D-tier, or even C-tier if you don't care about the sheer tedium of watching every battle take a multiple of 6 or 7 in turns.
It's just too bulky and useful to be given the same treatment as freaking Delibird of all things.
Versus Blissey, I'd say Pyukumuku is the well-rounded choice. 55/130/130 defenses versus the 255/10/135 make Pyukumuku much more of a reliable wall for the entire game versus the more special slant Blissey has.
On top of this, there's health and economics: A single hyper potion would bring Pyukumuku up to full health for virtually the entire game up to the Elite Four, whereas it would take multiple to fix Blissey's health issue, meaning more turns wasted healing and more cost.
Now, of course the little cucumber isn't going to be that phenomenal. It's late on the second island and is the Wobbuffet of the Sea, meaning it's totally dead weight until you get Toxic. That being said, I feel like it should be at least D-tier, or even C-tier if you don't care about the sheer tedium of watching every battle take a multiple of 6 or 7 in turns.
It's just too bulky and useful to be given the same treatment as freaking Delibird of all things.
Pyukumuku
Availability:
Near the end of the second island, fairly easy to catch considering it'll basically just stare at you.
Stats:
Takes hits regardless of whether they're special or physical and doesn't care as long as you heal it. 55/130/130 defenses and 60 attack if you're interested in a Pulverizing Z-Move.
Typing:
Water's always been good defensively; lucky for Pyukumuku that defensive is all it cares about. Plus, need I say more about STAB Soak?
Movepool:
Literally gets everything that makes it useful from level up; recovery and toxic after a while, soak early on. The only TMs it "needs" are Protect and Toxic, just because I think Toxic comes in earlier than it's levelup should.
Major Battles: On paper, it should do pretty much the same to anyone regardless of who they are. Hau's Raichu and Decidueye depending on starter choice will spook it, as well as virtually any other super-effective Pokemon it meets that has the power to 1HKO, but other than that? Nothing special.
Additional Comments: To be its best, it does need heal support beyond recover, though, so there is that. Fast EXP Curve makes it an obvious candidate for babying until it hits Toxic, at which point it can just sit there and spam it all day. Unaware prevents it from being setup upon, so it can't really be beaten like that, provided you take the time to SOS chain. Beating the Elite Four with this thing has to carry style points, because who else can say the same? Other than that, this thing does its job until it reaches the point where it gets 1HKO, but given it's obscene defenses it will take a while to get there. This thing could really suck on non-exp share runs, but on exp-share runs it makes a decent candidate for running with. At the very worst, it's just that sixth slot Pokemon you throw in so you can heal something worthwhile which you then swap to.
If you're particularly cruel, you could use this adorable little creature if only to defeat your opponent through forcing it to faint and using Innards Out, but what kind of trainer do you think you'd be if you did that?
Availability:
Near the end of the second island, fairly easy to catch considering it'll basically just stare at you.
Stats:
Takes hits regardless of whether they're special or physical and doesn't care as long as you heal it. 55/130/130 defenses and 60 attack if you're interested in a Pulverizing Z-Move.
Typing:
Water's always been good defensively; lucky for Pyukumuku that defensive is all it cares about. Plus, need I say more about STAB Soak?
Movepool:
Literally gets everything that makes it useful from level up; recovery and toxic after a while, soak early on. The only TMs it "needs" are Protect and Toxic, just because I think Toxic comes in earlier than it's levelup should.
Major Battles: On paper, it should do pretty much the same to anyone regardless of who they are. Hau's Raichu and Decidueye depending on starter choice will spook it, as well as virtually any other super-effective Pokemon it meets that has the power to 1HKO, but other than that? Nothing special.
Additional Comments: To be its best, it does need heal support beyond recover, though, so there is that. Fast EXP Curve makes it an obvious candidate for babying until it hits Toxic, at which point it can just sit there and spam it all day. Unaware prevents it from being setup upon, so it can't really be beaten like that, provided you take the time to SOS chain. Beating the Elite Four with this thing has to carry style points, because who else can say the same? Other than that, this thing does its job until it reaches the point where it gets 1HKO, but given it's obscene defenses it will take a while to get there. This thing could really suck on non-exp share runs, but on exp-share runs it makes a decent candidate for running with. At the very worst, it's just that sixth slot Pokemon you throw in so you can heal something worthwhile which you then swap to.
If you're particularly cruel, you could use this adorable little creature if only to defeat your opponent through forcing it to faint and using Innards Out, but what kind of trainer do you think you'd be if you did that?
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Stall is viable (as in, you will eventually win most battles), but not efficient for in-game, which is what's being ranked here. I can't personally see Pyukumuku going higher than maybe E-tier, and might even stay in F - Blissey can at least hit decently hard with Echoed Voice, but that requires attacking repeatedly, which is hard for the slowish and physically frail Blissey, so I can't see it going very high either.
Oh absolutely... Blissey would only go up to E tier at best imo. It's great to help you out in a pinch, but for efficiency's sake its not even close! Pyukumuku can't even attack... So I think F tier is more than appropriate in this instance.
Delibird can at least hit certain things hard, and it DOES get an attacking move this gen! But yeah unless you're making a joke team, probably stay away from all three of them.
Delibird can at least hit certain things hard, and it DOES get an attacking move this gen! But yeah unless you're making a joke team, probably stay away from all three of them.
Honestly, D/E for Blissey is fine, as although its attacking power is mediocre and has a bad type for offense, having a favorabe matchup due to defense is still preferrable to not winning at all.
In general, I often like defensive mons more because I tend to roll into the late game much lower levelled than the opponents, so I favor mons that can take hits over the offensive powerhouses, which usually just get outsped and oneshotted for me even when having type advantage.
In general, I often like defensive mons more because I tend to roll into the late game much lower levelled than the opponents, so I favor mons that can take hits over the offensive powerhouses, which usually just get outsped and oneshotted for me even when having type advantage.
I've been using Dugtrio in my Sun playthrough and I would like to ask it to drop a tier to B tier, mostly due to a bad early game. I was constantly babying it until around Mallow's trial because of low BP attacks coupled with how many early things carry water/fire/fighting coverage early on. Early game, I was avoiding using it because of its Low BP attacks and frailty allowing many things it should've theoretically held an advantage against being able to kill it with ease.
What are your opinions of the starters?
While I'm planning on choosing Rowlet for my upcoming Sun playthrough, I'm not terribly impressed by any of them. I'd rather use Salazzle than whatever the name of the fire furry bait starter is (edit:Incineroar), and I strongly dislike Primarina's design, despite the interesting typing. It seems like there are tons of pokemon that outclass the starters (Salazzle, Pelipper, idk about Decidueye), and I'm actually considering not using a starter in my playthrough.
Who did you all pick and which starter do you think is the best / most viable?
While I'm planning on choosing Rowlet for my upcoming Sun playthrough, I'm not terribly impressed by any of them. I'd rather use Salazzle than whatever the name of the fire furry bait starter is (edit:Incineroar), and I strongly dislike Primarina's design, despite the interesting typing. It seems like there are tons of pokemon that outclass the starters (Salazzle, Pelipper, idk about Decidueye), and I'm actually considering not using a starter in my playthrough.
Who did you all pick and which starter do you think is the best / most viable?
Litten is probably the most useful, but once it's fully evolved you're going to have to look at the worst design in series history every time you send it out. Popplio's line is also excellent, and Rowlet's is a little beneath the other two because of typing+low speed but probably slightly underrated by some people in this thread.
I picked Rowlet, and here's my view of it.
Rowlet, as a whole, is fine, but gaining ghost typing (which is awesome for a starter, by the way) really unravels it. I just felt like it was being slammed by super-effective hits from EVERYWHERE once it evolved, as I said before. Sucker Punch, Crunch, etc. just felt surreal, just from how many Pokemon carried them for coverage. Don't get me wrong, it hits hard and is surprisingly durable at times when not hit super-effectively, but it just struggles with levelup moves; being forced to run Razor Leaf until L44 for Leaf Blade sucks, but you of course have Pledge to help that.'
Litten's and Popplio's typings are both amazing, and they both excel ingame, from what I've heard.
At that point it's really just up to choice, like whichever design choice for the final evolutions you hate the least and what you want your team to be. Both work pretty well with the S-tier Pokemon, though Pelipper-induced rain benefits Primarina and harms Incinaroar. I guess technically Primarina would be better, just because ingame always seems to favor Pokemon that are fast and have good attacking stats over more bulkier, slower Pokemon
Rowlet, as a whole, is fine, but gaining ghost typing (which is awesome for a starter, by the way) really unravels it. I just felt like it was being slammed by super-effective hits from EVERYWHERE once it evolved, as I said before. Sucker Punch, Crunch, etc. just felt surreal, just from how many Pokemon carried them for coverage. Don't get me wrong, it hits hard and is surprisingly durable at times when not hit super-effectively, but it just struggles with levelup moves; being forced to run Razor Leaf until L44 for Leaf Blade sucks, but you of course have Pledge to help that.'
Litten's and Popplio's typings are both amazing, and they both excel ingame, from what I've heard.
At that point it's really just up to choice, like whichever design choice for the final evolutions you hate the least and what you want your team to be. Both work pretty well with the S-tier Pokemon, though Pelipper-induced rain benefits Primarina and harms Incinaroar. I guess technically Primarina would be better, just because ingame always seems to favor Pokemon that are fast and have good attacking stats over more bulkier, slower Pokemon
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Popplio is by far the best starter. I've been bugging ColonelM to move him to top. He is the only starter who has demonstrated the ability to completely solo the game, including the Lurantis and Vikavolt fights:
https://www.twitch.tv/eekcast/v/107262403
You can nickpick about Popplio's level being high during some fights (it's the nature of using just one Pokemon) but until somebody shows me video evidence of any other Pokemon soloing the game, Popplio is the undisputed king in my books.