Sun / Moon In-Game Tier List

[Giratina93]

Popplio is by far the best starter. I've been bugging ColonelM to move him to top. He is the only starter who has demonstrated the ability to completely solo the game, including the Lurantis and Vikavolt fights:
https://www.twitch.tv/eekcast/v/107262403

You can nickpick about Popplio's level being high during some fights (it's the nature of using just one Pokemon) but until somebody shows me video evidence of any other Pokemon soloing the game, Popplio is the undisputed king in my books.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sun-moon-in-game-tier-list.3587886/reply?quote=7135653
Any pokemon can solo the game when they're overleveled. Popplio's a solid pokemon, but it isn't S tier. In your average efficiency run, it's going to struggle against more than a few major boss battles and especially early game until you get Scald. You would have to be hideously overleveled to solo Ilima, the totem normal, Hala, Totam Lurantis, Totem Vikavolt, and Totem Mimikyu. Those fights are much better done with team mates to help out, and Popplio's early game slog is what keeps it from being S-tier.

 

[IOS]

Any pokemon can solo the game when they're overleveled. Popplio's a solid pokemon, but it isn't S tier. In your average efficiency run, it's going to struggle against more than a few major boss battles and especially early game until you get Scald. You would have to be hideously overleveled to solo Ilima, the totem normal, Hala, Totam Lurantis, Totem Vikavolt, and Totem Mimikyu. Those fights are much better done with team mates to help out, and Popplio's early game slog is what keeps it from being S-tier.

Are you going to show me video evidence of another Pokemon beating the game in an efficient run then? The video I posted was of somebody beating the game in under six hours. I've argued with people on here in the past, and while a speedrun may be taking the idea of efficiency to an extreme, the parameters of the run shown here and the runs we discuss when tiering are very similar.

And in response to needing to be "hideously overleveled" for the fights you mentioned, here are the actul levels Popplio was compared to the Pokemon it was fighting in the video I linked:

Ilima: Popplio: 12 Smeargle: 10
Totem: Popplio: 15 Raticate: 16
Hau: Popplio: 16 Pikachu: 13
Lurantis: Popplio: 30 Lurantis: 24
Vikavolt: Popplio: 34 Vikavolt: 29
Mimikyu: Popplio: 36 Mimikyu: 34

In the majority of fights, Popplio was within 2-3 levels of the Pokemon it was facing, which is reasonable variance. You can argue Lurantis and Vikavolt's level discrepancy if you like, but the fact is, no Pokemon is good in every fight and most flat-out cannot perform in disadvantageous fights even with much more generous level leads than Popplio has.

 

[Paddywagon Man]

I agree with Giratina93. Plus the Popplio in the speedrun wasn't even just overleveled, it was getting pumped up with X-stat items for most major battles. Almost any pokemon will seem like a god when it has plenty of item support and 8-10 levels over the competition - speedrunners use starters because they're immediately available and it saves the time spent searching for and catching other pokemon, not necessarily because they're the most powerful.

Speedruns are really not good evidence for an in-game efficiency assessment. If you read some of the older in-game tier threads they even point out the difference between a speedrun and an efficient run right in the preamble.

 

[IOS]

I agree with Giratina93. Plus the Popplio in the speedrun wasn't even just overleveled, it was getting pumped up with X-stat items for most major battles.

X-items give +2 to stats in this game, are cheap and have priority. It is inefficient not to use them.

Almost any pokemon will seem like a god when it has plenty of item support and 8-10 levels over the competition

See above post. Popplio often had only a 2-3 level lead over its opposition, and ended up approximately even leveled by mid-lategame.

speedrunners use starters because they're immediately available and it saves the time spent searching for and catching other pokemon, not necessarily because they're the most powerful.

Factually wrong. See the speedrun for Yellow (Nidoking), Soul Silver (Raikou), or Black/White 2 (Excadrill)

Speedruns are really not good evidence for an in-game efficiency assessment. If you read some of the older in-game tier threads they even point out the difference between a speedrun and an efficient run right in the preamble.

We can extrapolate from speedruns very easily, as it shows how Pokemon perform under restrictive parameters.


Let me reword this another way. Ignore the "speedrun" aspect. I have provided video evidence of Popplio performing extremely well with a 0-3 level advantage for the majority of the game, including easily sweeping all Guzma fights, all rival fights, the second Lusamine fight and countless forced Team Skull fights. It is overleveled for Lurantis and Vikavolt although there is video evidence that it can hold its own while overleveled for what that's worth. Can any other Pokemon in S Tier perform as well throughout the game with a 2-3 level advantage? If so, who has evidence of this?

 

[hypno28]

X-items give +2 to stats in this game, are cheap and have priority. It is inefficient not to use them.

Okay? The point is that any 'mon -- not just Popplio -- can be given the same boosts if the player wants to do so.

 

[MZ]

the question isn't is popplio good with soloing+x items, it's is anything in the game not good if you use only that and a ton of x items? I'm sure at some point things that're very slow with lots of weaknesses like lurantis or with just generally awful stats like gumshoos arent the best, but i dont really see why you couldn't solo the game with the other starters or any relatively solid mon like mudsdale

 

[IOS]

Okay? The point is that any 'mon -- not just Popplio -- can be given the same boosts if the player wants to do so.

the question isn't is popplio good with soloing+x items, it's is anything in the game not good if you use only that and a ton of x items? I'm sure at some point things that're very slow with lots of weaknesses like lurantis or with just generally awful stats like gumshoos arent the best, but i dont really see why you couldn't solo the game with the other starters or any relatively solid mon like mudsdale

The hypothesis of my argument is that Popplio, with x-items, performs better than any other Pokemon, also with x-items.

You still need a strong base Pokemon to take advantage of x-items. I will point you to the failed routing of Litten and Huge Power Marill speedruns, who were deemed to not perform as well at Popplio throughout the game. They too were given the benefits of a 0-3 level advantage (generally) and x-items.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Okay? The point is that any 'mon -- not just Popplio -- can be given the same boosts if the player wants to do so.

I mean yes, anything could do well if you spam X-Items on something and sweep with it, no one is denying it. The point being made is that Popplio is much more efficient at using those boosts, or rather, does not need as many boosts in a single Pokémon run, compared to the many other options Sun & Moon have to offer. If you decided to speedrun these games with something other than Popplio, the argument being made is that if you are trying to blast through the game with one Pokémon, you likely won't need as many X-Items or wasted turns setting up using a Popplio than you are using say, a Magnemite, over the course of an entire run of the game.

It is also true that a speedrun is not the same as an efficient casual run and this tier list is not a speedrun list, but it's no accident that Pokémon who are often used as part of the fastest routes to play a Pokémon game tend to be Pokémon that lounge about in the top two ranks of an ingame tier list, Pokémon that are very good in casual play. Exceptions exist of course, but the point is valid for the majority of main-line Pokémon Games.

Is Popplio worth moving to S however? I don't know, and I am personally neutral on the matter, but the fact that you can beat what is a cutscene-heavy speedgame in under six hours real time with Popplio (with or without using cover legends) unlike other early-games is an indication that Popplio is definitely in eyes of some, a clear cut above some of the A's and maybe even S's.

 

[11pikabro]

Has anyone else noticed that X-items aren't as efficient in Sun/Moon?
Sure the X-items now allow for +2 boosts in a single turn, making them incredibly more useful than in previous games, but we're now paying 1000 each for them--2000 for X Defense/Sp. Def. All of them used to be at about or below 500 in previous games, save for X Accuracy (which in Sun/Moon is a bargain now, nice!).
It's not as convenient of a purchase to make as in previous games. If a player knows ahead of time that only a +1 boost will be necessary in an upcoming battle (X Speed comes to mind for me), said player will have to settle on purchasing the same but now more expensive X-item and would've wished to have spent the wasted part of the expense on something else like a healing item, a Repel, a TM, or even another X-item for a separate battle.

Thankfully, Sun/Moon gives us plenty of money, so the higher prices shouldn't hurt those who have thought out what needs to be purchased in their playthroughs.
One could make a similar argument to this one for the price raising of other items, but the X-items stood out to me the most for them being essential for the viability of a number of Pokémon.

 

[nikore]

I think people are missing two key factors that really push Popplio over Litten and Rowlett (and why, imo, it deserves S-rank) - these factors are early access to Scald and excellent typing.

The first is, in my opinion, the more important of the two, and is one of the reasons why Water types are so strong in this game. Scald is a ridiculously powerful move for the time you get it - 80 BP with a strong secondary effect is incredibly powerful for the middle of the second island. Compare the options Litten and Rowlett have in terms of primary STAB attacks - Litten/Incineroar is stuck with Fire Fang/Flame Charge until Flamethrower at L44 (and even this runs off its inferior SpAtk stat, so you could say that it really has to wait for L55 for Flare Blitz) and Decidueye is stuck with Razor Leaf until it gets Leaf Blade at L44.

And Water is such a spammable attack type (as opposed to, say, Grass) that Scald is basically all Popplio needs for the midgame.

The second point was regarding Popplio's Water/Fairy typing, which is incredibly useful is a game that is absolutely littered with Rock, Ground, Fighting, Bug, and Dark types. Primarina can basically solo two of the E4 members alone (Rock/Fighting), does well in the Guzma fights (resistant to Bug), and a bunch more that I don't feel like typing out. Meanwhile, Decidueye gains a Ghost type which really hurts given the huge number of Dark/Ghost types in the game, while Incineroar gains a Dark type which, admittedly, does give it a good typing in Fire/Dark (though not as good as Water/Fairy).

 

[DHR-107]

The first is, in my opinion, the more important of the two, and is one of the reasons why Water types are so strong in this game. Scald is a ridiculously powerful move for the time you get it - 80 BP with a strong secondary effect is incredibly powerful for the middle of the second island. Compare the options Litten and Rowlett have in terms of primary STAB attacks - Litten/Incineroar is stuck with Fire Fang/Flame Charge until Flamethrower at L44 (and even this runs off its inferior SpAtk stat, so you could say that it really has to wait for L55 for Flare Blitz) and Decidueye is stuck with Razor Leaf until it gets Leaf Blade at L44.

It's not even "that" late. You get Scald during the first trial on Island 2. You're not even level 20 at that point. Hell, you've probably only just got your starter to evolve once. Giving us Scald this early is simply insanity. Any Pokemon which can learn either Scald or Brick Break is pretty much good to go until the midgame relying on the power of that one move alone. Both are decent coverage too.

Any Water Pokemon gets a huge boost to its viability simply through having access to Scald, same with anything that can learn Brick Break (even more so considering how may Dark types are splattered around everywhere).

 

[Punchshroom]

This is a really late response but I just want to bring up that:

Actually one Bug that IOS brought up to possibly rise is Pinsir.

Though it is awkward at times, Pinsir is one of the stronger, if not strongest, Bug-types you can get without having to do anything extreme such as babying for 10 levels (Golisopod), dealing with poor Speed (Parasect), or questionable contributions (Araquanid). Pinsir has access to early STAB Leech Life with a plethora of Fighting-type moves. This, combined with Bulldoze and Rock Tomb, are also great to have on hand.

Pinsir does not learn Leech Life.

 

[Lucchini]

I still don't think any of these highly specific runs IOS cites as reason to move something up to the top of the top tier, like speedruns or those 0 experience challenge runs, to be convincing for a casual tier list for a run with a whole team. The last one was Swellow who basically needed a bunch of X items to function and its poison status renewed for Guts Facade to quickly rout the mandatory trainers in the way.

While speedruns (and I guess 0 experience runs if those are ever brought up) are interesting and could demonstrate something about the game, there may be little connection with a normal playthrough with 6 Pokemon that can easily afford capturing an extra 4 Pokemon, going out of the player's way to find a TM are all feasible activities, and we can grab the Acrobatics TM or get Thief so that we can steal Black Sludge for Grimer or Thick Club for Marowak later.

It's also not true that other starters have nothing at the point when Brionne gets Scald. The 80 BP Pledges can all be tutored around the time you get to the 2nd island, so everyone has something at the same point of the game, and Torracat will hit about equally as hard while being much faster.

Finally, let's not overstate the importance of water-types just because of the early accessibility of Scald. How high is Psyduck up the list? At the same time, Magnemite has lesser moves for much of the game and tops the list. Mudbray gets no Scald but gets a 95 BP STAB around the same time instead, which is more than just about every water-type can boast.

Something like pre-evo Wingull with Scald or even Acrobatics!Zubat won't hit anywhere as hard as we like to stress in this thread. Stats are important, as is being able to take a hit. Without Exp Share, even something like Blissey has value for walling special-oriented trainers and using coverage moves / Echoed Voice off 75 sp. atk., which I assume is considered high enough for the purposes of this thread when Dewpider is in A tier and has the same attack when not using a water-type move.

 

[MKL122788]

Honestly, Scald is overpowered for when you get it.

The fact that Dewpider, who basically has the most ridiculous early game scald you can get due to water bubble, is not S tier yet is astounding.

Araquanid's special attack with scald is basically as high as Primarina's Scald without any investment and he benefits much more from every EV put in.

In the best scenario, a modest Araquanid with EVs has 112 Special Attack on 50 which acts like a 224 one. This is equivalent to 152 base special attack, modest, with full investment.

So Araquanid's special attack acts like somewhere between a 120 and 152 base special attack thanks to water bubble. For Dewpider, it is between 100 and 132.

A first stager who you conveniently get right in the same place you get scald whose special attack acts like it is at least base 100 from the very beginning?

Yeah...

 

[Lucchini]

Honestly, Scald is overpowered for when you get it.

The fact that Dewpider, who basically has the most ridiculous early game scald you can get due to water bubble, is not S tier yet is astounding.

Araquanid's special attack with scald is basically as high as Primarina's Scald without any investment and he benefits much more from every EV put in.

In the best scenario, a modest Araquanid with EVs has 112 Special Attack on 50 which acts like a 224 one. This is equivalent to 152 base special attack, modest, with full investment.

So Araquanid's special attack acts like somewhere between a 120 and 152 base special attack thanks to water bubble. For Dewpider, it is between 100 and 132.

A first stager who you conveniently get right in the same place you get scald whose special attack acts like it is at least base 100 from the very beginning?

Yeah...

You get Brick Break, with 5 fewer BP, much earlier, and yet we've been sandbagging the fighting-types for the most part (and rightfully so).

The problem with those calcs is that no "best scenario" will happen in-game. Players can get Dewpiders with different IVs, and no EV training can be expected to take place in-game - you'll just pick some up naturally, less so with Exp Share turned off.

At lv. 18, Dewpider has 20-21 sp. atk on average with a neutral nature, double that for 40-42-ish special. Compare this to a lv. 18 Slowbro who can be expected to have an average of 44 sp. atk.

Sure, he'll still hit really hard with Scald just like Azumarill is known to hit hard with all physical moves, but it remains slow and one-dimensional (bug-type moves will never be nearly as effective).

 

[MKL122788]

You get Brick Break, with 5 fewer BP, much earlier, and yet we've been sandbagging the fighting-types for the most part (and rightfully so).

The problem with those calcs is that no "best scenario" will happen in-game. Players can get Dewpiders with different IVs, and no EV training can be expected to take place in-game - you'll just pick some up naturally, less so with Exp Share turned off.

At lv. 18, Dewpider has 20-21 sp. atk on average with a neutral nature, double that for 40-42-ish special. Compare this to a lv. 18 Slowbro who can be expected to have an average of 44 sp. atk.

Sure, he'll still hit really hard with Scald just like Azumarill is known to hit hard with all physical moves, but it remains slow and one-dimensional (bug-type moves will never be nearly as effective).

First, a Dewpider on 18 with 15 IVs and a neutral nature has 22 Special Attack, so it does match up with Slowbro. Slowbro at an IV of 15 has 43 Special Attack, so a first stage Dewpider beats out Slowbro with 0 EVs.

Second, Dewpider evolves on 22 and Slowbro evolves on 37. These are not even close to the same thing. So cherry picking Slowbro early game is basically impossible because Dewpider beats Slowpoke by a country mile.

Third, the special part about Dewpider is that each point increase from an EV, which will likely be random in a playthrough, is worth 2 due to water bubble. So if he ends up with an average 90 EVs, that puts him at 26(52), where the same thing puts Slowbro at 47 on 18. Slowbro has a base 100 special attack. So his is better than a base 100. Araquanid with the same amount of EVs and an average IV is at 29, which is 58. This is 25% harder than Slowbro hits, who has a base 100 special attack.

So to say that those two are equal in any way is close to true, but only in the cherry picked scenario of level 18 Dewpider against level 18 Slowbro, which is so far from a realistic comparison that I'm not sure it is even relevant and surely isn't obtainable.

 

[Lucchini]

Neutral Dewpider will have 38-48 effective sp. atk depending on its stat. Neutral Slowbro will have 41-46, so they're about the same, Slowbro losing less with fewer IVs. Slowbro IS capturable in the wild at low level btw.

Slowbro's got 100 special attack, which is a fairly meek number considering the other easily available offensive juggernauts found in the game (Wishiwashi, Archeops). If you compare Dewpider's evolution to, say, Wishiwashi, then this is not a comparison in Dewpider's favour:

Araquanid's effective sp. atk. at lv. 22: 54-66
Wishiwashi's effective sp. atk. at lv. 22: 66-73

Wishiwashi will always be hitting harder in a casual run where EV training doesn't happen. It will also be able to use non-water type moves more effectively, and it arguably tanks hits better too.

 

[MKL122788]

Neutral Dewpider will have 38-48 effective sp. atk depending on its stat. Neutral Slowbro will have 41-46, so they're about the same, Slowbro losing less with fewer IVs. Slowbro IS capturable in the wild at low level btw.

Slowbro's got 100 special attack, which is a fairly meek number considering the other easily available offensive juggernauts found in the game (Wishiwashi, Archeops). If you compare Dewpider's evolution to, say, Wishiwashi, then this is not a comparison in Dewpider's favour:

Araquanid's effective sp. atk. at lv. 22: 54-66
Wishiwashi's effective sp. atk. at lv. 22: 66-73

Wishiwashi will always be hitting harder in a casual run where EV training doesn't happen. It will also be able to use non-water type moves more effectively, and it arguably tanks hits better too.

I believe Wishiwashi should also be S.

That said, Wishiwashi definitely doesn't tank hits better. It is about even on the physical side, though Araquanid is slightly worse(50% more HP and 70% of the defense for Araquanid). On the special side, Araquanid takes hits almost 50% better(50% more HP and nearly identical SPDef).

Both have access to Rest/Sleep Talk/Scald which you get at the beginning of the game which can basically cheese your way through(and quickly).

Araquanid forms a better core with Magnemite because it resists everything Magnemite is weak to while Magnemite resists everything Araquanid is weak to.

That said, those two are equal, if not better than Gyarados for the majority of the game in terms of ease of use in my opinion. And pretty much equivalent to Wingull in rain.

 

[Big_Isaac]

Could someone catch me up on why Talonflame is so high?
It's probably gonna outspeed the entire game, but what else does it have? Sure it gets Acrobatics like every flying type minus Pikipek, but I'd argue it's perhaps the worst user of the move in the game - not only does it come off a meh 81 attack, but using it means you're giving up on both the fire AND flying Z move.

Granted I haven't seen its learnset for Gen 7 (neither bulba nor serebii have it yet. What gives?), so there might be a massive nuke in there somewhere for all I know.

 

[Ondore]

Talonflame learnset

 

[Colonel M]

Alright so:

- Meowth will go down one tier.
- Again, NO QR SCAN AT THIS TIME!
- Paras, Wimpod, and Pinsir will go up one tier (in spite of missing Leech Life it's still not too bad). Ill also level Dewpider up one too.
- Bounsweet up a tier
- Poplio to S (in spite of the criticism against "anyone can solo the game", Poplio is actually a very solid Pokemon from the getgo to the end and has much less issues in comparison to Litten and co).
- Archen to High.
- Anyone that states that stall is a valid playstyle for in-game might as well leave. This is, after all, an efficiency tier list. The goal is not to burn a shitload of time like Chansey and Pyukumuku do. If anything the recommendation of them having to do that makes me want to slip them even lower in a tier.

 

[Paddywagon Man]

Alright so:

- Paras, Wimpod, and Pinsir will go up one tier (in spite of missing Leech Life it's still not too bad). Ill also level Dewpider up one too.

My entire existence is vindicated!

 

[LightningLord2]

Would Blissey still be considered somewhat viable? While relying on stall isn't efficient, it does have a very solid TM coverage and with 75 Special Attack, the right moves can still do reasonably well. Only things I'd see a problem if the encounter method (SOS chaining Pichu) and evolving it to Blissey (imo getting an Oval Stone is not that hard) takes too much effort. Still, I'd probably rank it no higher than E as a lot of threatening in-game mons are physical and it's quite slow (though given the Alola Dex, 55 might actually be enough to outspeed a good amount of mons).

 

[LunaStik]

I'd like to repeat a nomination for Diglett to move down to B tier.

He suffers similarly to Magnemite with low BP attacks, but an even worse defensive typing. Weaknesses to water, fire, and fighting do him no favors early, and is so frail that he can't tank neutral hits to get 2hko's with his low BP attacks. Granted, once he evolves he gets much better, but in my current run I was struggling until that point.

 

[Lucchini]

I'd like to repeat a nomination for Diglett to move down to B tier.

He suffers similarly to Magnemite with low BP attacks, but an even worse defensive typing. Weaknesses to water, fire, and fighting do him no favors early, and is so frail that he can't tank neutral hits to get 2hko's with his low BP attacks. Granted, once he evolves he gets much better, but in my current run I was struggling until that point.

If we talk about Diglett's weaknesses, let's not forget its 8 resistances and 2 immunities either!