Sun / Moon In-Game Tier List

[LunaStik]

If we talk about Diglett's weaknesses, let's not forget its 8 resistances and 2 immunities either!

I'm not denying them, but early game those resistances are not especially useful. Additionally, he depends on those resistances to do anything early, with a lack of bulk meaning he can't rely on winning against anything with neutral/SE coverage.

I am admitting the main argument for my nomination is early game performance, which is where his weaknesses are more prominent. Halfway through Akala, he vastly improves when trainers start using types he resists more.

Early game: can pick up at melemele meadow.

Any Hau fight he is at a disadvantage, where two starters hit for SE, and one neutral. Low BP attacks mean diglett can't oneshot any.
Halu: don't even try.
Wishiwashi: don't try.
Salazzle: 50/50. Depends on if you have evolved and how much Salazzle wants to poison you. I won with a min roll from flare burst.

Basically, the typing doesn't actially help him until midgame

 

[Big_Isaac]

I'm not seeing the complaint about low BP attacks. Magnitude may be random, but its output averages out to a BP of 60, which is not at all bad for a move learned at level 14. Plus it only needs to carry you 'till 18, at which point Bulldoze wins the game for you.
For Hau, his starter shouldn't be a concern considering unless you ditch your own, you already have it covered. Not to mention that Diglet's base speed is still higher than Litten's, meaning a half-decent Magnitude would still wipe it out. Plus it completely walls Pichu/Pikachu/Raichu in every single fight.

 

[hypno28]

The average BP of Magnitude is actually 71, not 60.

 

[Colonel M]

I noticed a couple were already elevated and I just forgot about them (Bounsweet in Upper Mid and Dewpider is already in High). I might hold off on Dewpider Top if we're holding off on Wishiwashi Top.

Still listening on Diglett. Not disagreeing since it is rough for a couple of trials (and against Hala), though catching the one near Diglett's Cave instead helps a little in terms of its usefulness and it absolutely floors Olivia.

 

[LunaStik]

I forgot about your starter on Hau for whatever reason. It still means that for the first two islands the only meaningful contribution is against a Pikachu. This does not really help. I found myself grinding Diglett a lot on wild pokemon because it is also not very useful on route trainers (quite a few of them run water types on routes 2-3). Its only meaningful experience is against Hau's Pikachu.

Maybe we can get some extra input from someone else. Because I think it ultimately hinges on how reliably we can get Dugtrio without excess grinding by the time we reach Totem Salazzle, and how reliably Dugtrio beats Salazzle (it was a 50/50 as Diglett).

I'm not seeing the complaint about low BP attacks. Magnitude may be random, but its output averages out to a BP of 60, which is not at all bad for a move learned at level 14. Plus it only needs to carry you 'till 18, at which point Bulldoze wins the game for you.
For Hau, his starter shouldn't be a concern considering unless you ditch your own, you already have it covered. Not to mention that Diglet's base speed is still higher than Litten's, meaning a half-decent Magnitude would still wipe it out. Plus it completely walls Pichu/Pikachu/Raichu in every single fight.

An issue with Bulldoze/Magnitude is how useful is ground coverage early? Diglett is frail enough even with Steel typing that you need SE OHKO's. I don't remember ever using Diglett early for ground coverage because the early types that Diglett is effective against is limited to fire, which have a mutual effectiveness against him.

Ultimately, it is Diglett's first two islands that will determine his placement. He is running into a problem of great strengths at a time we can't capitalize on them. (Dugtrio is amazing though)

Also, finishing up my second run, will go through the remaining list later because of how late I decided on my final team, and apart from Diglett, why I couldn't immediately comment on them.

 

[IOS]

Because the game has been datamined, we have enemy stats here: http://pastebin.com/vkaZNTra

I wanted to use these to get a snapshot of Pokemon offense, so I used a damage calculator to plug in a pretty neutral enemy Pokemon (Gladion's Type Null at Level 38 which has 0 EVs, 95 base stats in everything, and 30 IVs in everything) and see how much damage the Pokemon from tiers B - S (plus some scattered mons from the other tiers) would do against it. I took every Pokemon at Level 40, assumed 15 IVs, neutral nature and 20 EVs in every stat and calculated damage output with each Pokemon's "best" Level 40 move (though I cheated in a few spots like with Bruxish and Psychic Fangs since it learns it at 41). I also plugged in natures/IVs for trade Pokemon like Bouncee (Adamant nature, 31 Atk IV). The result was this list:
http://pastebin.com/mDZjxpfz

[Note that Ghost moves were changed to be able to hit Type:Null and fighting lost SE so I could remove unfair advantages/disadvantages to Ghost/Fighting Pokemon]

This list isn't meant to take the place of a tier list by any means because there's still a lot these numbers don't tell about the Pokemon. They don't tell us when they get the move they're using, how they fare against non-neutral matchups and much more. However, I like it as a decent starting point to show how a Pokemon's mid-lategame offense is. An example of how this list needs to be supported with context is Sylveon, who has one of the higher damage outputs, but doesn't get Moonblast until Level 37 and is a liability beforehand.

I learned a lot making this list and to start want to propose five changes to the list:

Diglett to B: 100 Attack and a 80 BP STAB seems good on paper, but it actually lags behind the majority of B-S Pokemon in mid-lategame who mostly either have a stronger attacking stat or higher BP STAB. With the Diglett stage already heavily criticized for starting weak, I'm not sure I see the payoff at the end when Dugtrio is struggling to OHKO even after an X-Attack. Its typing is excellent, but Earthquake comes too late at Level 47 and I don't really ever see where it has a dominant period which it needs to be A Tier caliber.

Comfey to E: I've already joked with Colonel_M about this one. How the hell did it get put in B? Even with Petal Blizzard or STAB Dazzling Gleam (both are 120 BP moves effectively) it has one of the worst damage outputs of the B-S Pokemon, and it needs to wait until its 40s to get there!

Eevee (Espeon) to A: Its damage output with Psychic running off 130 Base is drool worthy and its very fast (especially for Aloha). With the Psychic TM coming after the first visit to the Aether foundation, it should easily sweep through anything that doesn't resist its type. Kadabra/Alakazam's performance in the earlier games comes to mind.

Bruxish to C: I understand that its a pain to catch a Level 30 one, but its damage output is top notch. Psychic Fangs isn't until Level 41, but even non-STAB Crunch was placing its damage output alongside Hydration Pelipper/Machamp when I ran the numbers. D is way too harsh for it

Fletchling to B: Its damage output with Acrobatics is basically equal to Drifblim's, except Driblim has better secondary coverage (Talonflame's fire movepool is almost non-existant before the Elite 4), and is much much tankier. Either Drifblim is better than we think, or (more likely) Fletchling isn't up to par.

Please don't hesitate to point out any errors in my pastebin, and I might consider doing this at another point in the game (likely earlier in the game) to see another snapshot of how everyone's offense grades out. I could probably go on with about twenty more changes based on doing that exercise (A tier Drought Torkoal and Toucannon anyone?) but I figured five is good to start with.

 

[LunaStik]

OK, just finished my Sun playthrough, and here are my thoughts on the remainder of my team:

First off, I'll nominate Fomantis to move up one tier to D tier (Might reach C, but let's work on one tier at a time). It certainly does not get a lot, with only bug and grass coverage (and Brick Break on evolution) until late game, but it does those things very well. It will do exactly what you need it to when you need it. Reasonably early Grassium Z + somewhat early Leaf Blade with just enough bulk to survive a hit despite its horrendous speed allows it to be a one time nuke against whatever is needed. Dire hit/X Attack, while not efficient, combined with Razor Leaf is just perfect for Totem Wishiwashi right after you get it. He falls off after a while until Olivia, and can kill half of her team on his own, which while not ideal, is enough to let other mons take care of the rest. That sums up its performance for the entire game: while he won't be a star, he can fill up a hole in the team and not leave you feeling like you would rather run someone else.

Minior I feel fine at B tier; he has very nice matchups, but comes just too late to be able to catch up to mons you got on Melemele and Akala. I did use him heavily after I got him, and he was still two levels under the rest of my party at end game, which isn't too bad considering Shell Smash, but it does go to show how much his availability impacts your run.

Zygarde-10 feels like Diglett, in that he seems like he would do better than he actually does, but is hampered by actual late game availability. Wherever Diglett ends up, I just feel Zygarde-10 has to go one tier lower than Diglett.

Litten I feel is fine at A tier. He played much like Munchlax did for me in my Moon playthrough.

Finally, the continuation of the Diglett debate. My final verdict is B Tier (again). He struggles as Diglett, then picks up mid-game as Dugtrio when it gets the stats to cover up its relatively poor moveset along with the enemies that he can actually utilize SE attacks against. However, Dugtrio struggles again (though less so than as Diglett) during the later portion of mid/early portion of late game. The opposing pokemon start reaching their final evolutions as well, and the lower BP attacks don't cut quite it as well. The main difference is Dugtrio's resistances can play a better part in its longevity than in the early game as Diglett, so it can safely and reliably net KOs despite the renewed flaws. Dugtrio then becomes great again when it picks up EQ and Iron Head (as well as the potential for Stone Edge TM).

 

[Paddywagon Man]

the later portion of mid/early portion of late game

What exactly do you mean by that? It seems very specific, but could you give locations or major battles as examples?

 

[IOS]

What exactly do you mean by that? It seems very specific, but could you give locations or major battles as examples?

Every Guzma fight in a nutshell. Because the tier list assumes set battles, you need to be a good lead to do well in battles or else you're taking hits whenever you switch. Dugtrio is not a good lead, and doesn't like taking hits. Plumeria's Salazzle also outspeeds it (Hasty nature, 31 speed IV, 252 speed EVs) and OHKO's Dugtrio back.

EDIT: More fun with Dugtrio:

Clefable's Moonblast is a 2HKO too FYI.

(Note that Mismagius doesn't get Flamethrower, but the calculator doesn't have Mystical Fire so I just changed its BP. I did the same thing earlier with Dugtrio and Earthquake/Dug for the Guzma fight)

EDIT 2: I forgot to put in Lilligant's EVs but yes it still OHKOs Dugtrio.

 

[LunaStik]

What exactly do you mean by that? It seems very specific, but could you give locations or major battles as examples?

Basically the same as above. During the second half of Ula'Ula, Dugtrio starts facing fully evolved pokemon with his best STAB attack remaining Metal Claw/Bulldoze/Dig (Even the above calc is inaccurate, as I was still using Rock Throw as my best option for rock coverage for the first couple of Guzma fights). It causes him to take far more damage than he should in battles where he would have the advantage. Everything has just started running dark coverage so his relative frailty makes a return, as well. The difference is that he can make more team contributions because you have more team options as well to capitalize on Tangling Hair, which smaller teams couldn't capitalize on as well early, hence why I mentioned that it did not fair as badly as it did as Diglett.

 

[Paddywagon Man]

Thanks guys, that was very detailed info!

 

[Dreamox]

If anyone was like me and thought maybe Abra having a full moveset might fix the Kadabra glitch, it doesn't.

Sucks for Kadabra. Maybe it will be fixed in the patch fixing the battle spot issues.

Just wondering what the battle spot issues are?

 

[PsychicAcademic]

How does Pikachuu fare in storyline in XY again? I want to compare. I strangely find using Pichuu here to be much better than in X where I had to retire my Raichuu around the midgame while here my Alolan Raichuu managed to still live even against Lusamine (Stall-fable is setup bait), although admittedly she's first to die in E4. Always. And never to bring against Guzma.

I admit the only way I could make her usable is by Nasty Plot learnt as Pichuu. If she wasn't KOed after one buff, she can destroy many things, but then I'm stuck with Thundershock for the longest of my time. Heck, I can't even believe Aloraichu-Z is available earlier than Thunderbolt.

And I love Milotic, but after spending 3 hours trying to catch Feebas, yeah... F is where it's at. Not even mentioning Popplio (Yes, I brought both just because I want to) or her actual supposed usage....

 

[Banryu]

And I love Milotic, but after spending 3 hours trying to catch Feebas, yeah... F is where it's at. Not even mentioning Popplio (Yes, I brought both just because I want to) or her actual supposed usage....

Wait.... is this really how long it's supposed to take?? I caught mine in like 15 minutes :0 Did I just get lucky?

 

[Ondore]

Know how most rare fishing spot Pokemon still only show up 20% of the time? Feebas is a quarter of that. Three hours is not out of the realm of possibility.

 

[PsychicAcademic]

Wait.... is this really how long it's supposed to take?? I caught mine in like 15 minutes :0 Did I just get lucky?

1% chance of fishing it (I am sick of seeing karps and goldeens).
5% if it is bubbly, but many times I got Pearls instead.

Or I'm just that unlucky. Heck, I got Eevee for Synchro Umbreon later much easier than this. Either way, sadly still not going high.

 

[Banryu]

Oh hell. I guess I did just get ungodly lucky o___o Well damn now I regret not using it in my most recent run to contribute to its potential viability xD Not that it would likely matter much with an availability like that.

 

[Giratina93]

It's not just that Feebas is incredibly rare, but that getting it into Milotic takes way too long in the game proper. The Prism Scale needed to evolve it comes around Exeggutor Island, which is at the tail end of the game. Or you can try to fish all over the place, which is hideously inconstant anyways. Slap on a need to trade it, which isn't practical for many people unless you got a friend to help (But in that case why not just trade over a lv. 100 Arceus or something to steamroll the game if said trading is available?), and you get one of the most inefficient mons the game can offer to you. Far too much hoop juggling and waiting for something that's only above average at best.

EDIT: Going back to LunaStik's thing on Zydog... NO. Zydog might come a lot later, but when you do get it, it's not that hideously underleveled, and a few rare candies can bring it up to par with the rest of your team (Hey, if it works for Wishiwashi, it works here) Even more, it comes with Lands Wrath out the gate which is worlds stronger than what Dugtrio has packing at that point. Even better, if you've been going after the cores, you can also get access to Thousand Arrows, Espeed, and DDance very quickly, giving it a fully rounded and powerful moveset when it joins your team. Thanks to its typing and movepool, it handles many of the challenges to come better than Alolantrio and can even set up and sweep with DDance+Thousand Arrows against many of the trainers up ahead (It can actually put in work against Hapu, whereas Alolantrio dies horribly, same goes for Olivia round 2 and Kahili, and even Acerola if you're feeling gutsy and set up DDances on Sableye...)

And while you can get Dugtrio earlier on, many of those early/mid game matchups suck for the mole (Hala crumples you, Wishiwashi eats you alive, Salazzle outspeeds and nukes you if not evolved, Lurantis bisects you...) Only everything between Olivia and Totem Vikavolt goes Dugtrio's way, and when you get to Mimikyu... RIP.

 

[LunaStik]

EDIT: Going back to LunaStik's thing on Zydog... NO. Zydog might come a lot later, but when you do get it, it's not that hideously underleveled, and a few rare candies can bring it up to par with the rest of your team (Hey, if it works for Wishiwashi, it works here) Even more, it comes with Lands Wrath out the gate which is worlds stronger than what Dugtrio has packing at that point. Even better, if you've been going after the cores, you can also get access to Thousand Arrows, Espeed, and DDance very quickly, giving it a fully rounded and powerful moveset when it joins your team. Thanks to its typing and movepool, it handles many of the challenges to come better than Alolantrio and can even set up and sweep with DDance+Thousand Arrows against many of the trainers up ahead (It can actually put in work against Hapu, whereas Alolantrio dies horribly, same goes for Olivia round 2 and Kahili, and even Acerola if you're feeling gutsy and set up DDances on Sableye...)

And while you can get Dugtrio earlier on, many of those early/mid game matchups suck for the mole (Hala crumples you, Wishiwashi eats you alive, Salazzle outspeeds and nukes you if not evolved, Lurantis bisects you...) Only everything between Olivia and Totem Vikavolt goes Dugtrio's way, and when you get to Mimikyu... RIP.

Except... It doesn't work. I did actually disassemble and reassemble until I got an Adamant Nature (was aiming for adamant/jolly), and decided to lead with it against the major matchups for the rest of the game. What ends up happening is there is always something that just ends your sweep. It is very frail, so you get one chance to set up Dragon Dance, at which point you are below 50% hp, and one pokemon comes in that you can't hit with SE coverage and you lose Zydog. This also means you can't switch in, because at that point you lose 50% before you even set up. Even with Adamant, I missed too many 1HKOs and had to take out more pokemon using other team members than Zydog managed to.

matchups:
Guzma (all): Rock Slide coverage can help, but First Impression ends all hope of sweeping from the get go. Also, any Rock Slide miss ends the sweep.
Nanu: You lack SE coverage for any of them, which means 2Hkos from Zydog. This means Zydog only gets 1-2 KO's, regardless of whether you DD or not.
Lusamine (all): Can't lead against Clefable. From then on Zydog can't switch in because it is frail and lacks power without SE hits or DD. In the final battle, The stat bonuses outright end all hopes of setting up. Becomes dead weight.
Hapu: Can't break her walls even with DD. Zydog goes down pretty quickly.
Komo'o: DD does nothing. Your only SE attack is Special (Core Enforcer), and DD only offsets the +1 defense for ground coverage. You fail to break and are 2HKO'd in return.

E4: Only favorable matchup is Olivia. Kahili is a 50/50 with Skarmory + Mandibuzz being able to tank SE Rock Slides sometimes.

Basically, out of the last 12 battles, you outright win one of them, have a fair chance in two of them, and 50/50 one of them. You outright lose the rest. Zydog does better on paper than he does in practice.

 

[Giratina93]

Except... It doesn't work. I did actually disassemble and reassemble until I got an Adamant Nature (was aiming for adamant/jolly), and decided to lead with it against the major matchups for the rest of the game. What ends up happening is there is always something that just ends your sweep. It is very frail, so you get one chance to set up Dragon Dance, at which point you are below 50% hp, and one pokemon comes in that you can't hit with SE coverage and you lose Zydog. This also means you can't switch in, because at that point you lose 50% before you even set up. Even with Adamant, I missed too many 1HKOs and had to take out more pokemon using other team members than Zydog managed to.

matchups:
Guzma (all): Rock Slide coverage can help, but First Impression ends all hope of sweeping from the get go. Also, any Rock Slide miss ends the sweep.
Nanu: You lack SE coverage for any of them, which means 2Hkos from Zydog. This means Zydog only gets 1-2 KO's, regardless of whether you DD or not.
Lusamine (all): Can't lead against Clefable. From then on Zydog can't switch in because it is frail and lacks power without SE hits or DD. In the final battle, The stat bonuses outright end all hopes of setting up. Becomes dead weight.
Hapu: Can't break her walls even with DD. Zydog goes down pretty quickly.
Komo'o: DD does nothing. Your only SE attack is Special (Core Enforcer), and DD only offsets the +1 defense for ground coverage. You fail to break and are 2HKO'd in return.

E4: Only favorable matchup is Olivia. Kahili is a 50/50 with Skarmory + Mandibuzz being able to tank SE Rock Slides sometimes.

Basically, out of the last 12 battles, you outright win one of them, have a fair chance in two of them, and 50/50 one of them. You outright lose the rest. Zydog does better on paper than he does in practice.

For Guzma, you DO have Rockium Z that you can slap onto Zydog , letting you smack something of his extra hard without missing, most likely Golisopod once you get up a DDance. From my experience when fighting Guzma with Zydog, Goliso prefers to try and SD up instead of going for the First Impression for whatever reason, so maybe I'm just skewed in that area.
Nanu with the Sableye is set up bait for Zydog, but the Krokorok is a pain in the ass.
Lusamine I'll give you
Hapu was also set up bait, with thousand arrows spam carrying Zydog to victory
Kommo-o, you get Dragon Claw for that point in the game so you can at the very least cripple Kommo-o so something else can swoop in and secure the kill. Also, if you missed D-claw somehow, a Tectonic Rage also cripples Kommo-o nicely.

For Kahili, you do have Thousand Arrows, so you can set up on Skarmory, then spam Thousand Arrows to victory from there, bopping and wrecking everything you hit with it. You can also set up against Kukui, since his Lyncanroc can't kill you that easily. Set up, then Thousand Arrows away! (With a side dish of Outrage thanks to move relearner) You can try to set up on Acerola as well, but the frosslass and enormous bulk of Passoland makes that iffy, and Hala's crew hits too hard in general.

The point is, Zydog has a better run through late mid-end game than you think thanks to Thousand Arrows+Rock coverage and Espeed hitting everything neutral, and Dugtrio suffers even more in its late game run than Zydog does. At least Zydog comes out the gate with powerful moves at its disposal. Alolatrio only gets actual strong moves right before final Lusamine, and before then, it suffers even worse in many of those fights. Until the very tail end of the game, Dugtrio is always underperforming worse than Zydog does because by the time it gets reliable ground coverage, you enter the point of the game that laughs off your coverage and slaughters you regardless. You reach Island 3, those weak moves really start to hinder you, and when you finally get Iron head and EQ... congratulations, you bop Lusamine's clefable hard and that's it. Enjoy jobbing to the entire Elite 4 (Yes, even Kahili, since fire bird outspeeds you and nukes you unless you are hideously overleveled.)

 

[LunaStik]

For Guzma, you DO have Rockium Z that you can slap onto Zydog , letting you smack something of his extra hard without missing, most likely Golisopod once you get up a DDance. From my experience when fighting Guzma with Zydog, Goliso prefers to try and SD up instead of going for the First Impression for whatever reason, so maybe I'm just skewed in that area.

I think it's a 50/50. Knowing how hard it could hit, i went for the emergency exit proc then set up on Ariados. Who then sucker punched and killed me. And if you go for DD and Golisopod SD's, you get a 10% chance on losing with Rock Slide miss. I counted this as one of my "fair" chances at the bottom.

Nanu with the Sableye is set up bait for Zydog, but the Krokorok is a pain in the ass.

Basically means it is unreliable. Sableye Fake Out > Shadow Ball does enough damage that you can set up to +2 at best. Krokorok survived +1 and finished off Zydog.

Lusamine I'll give you
Hapu was also set up bait, with thousand arrows spam carrying Zydog to victory.

You can once again get +1 at best. Turn 1 Dugtrio Sandstorm. Turn 2 EQ. Turn 3 if you try to go any further Sucker Punch can finish you. Therfore turn 1 is DD, followed by Thousand Arrows before it can damage you. Even then a Sucker Punch roll will allow the follow up pokemon to revenge you as Gastrodon and Mudsdale can both survive a +1 Arrows.

Kommo-o, you get Dragon Claw for that point in the game so you can at the very least cripple Kommo-o so something else can swoop in and secure the kill. Also, if you missed D-claw somehow, a Tectonic Rage also cripples Kommo-o nicely.

Zydog can't learn Dragon Claw. Komo'o likes to protect turn-1, which is a free opportunity to set up, but this just offsets its defense boost, and he OHKO's you in return, with HP at ~30%. That's not very crippled when the +1 speed and offense makes it hard for your next pokemon to revenge.

For Kahili, you do have Thousand Arrows, so you can set up on Skarmory, then spam Thousand Arrows to victory from there, bopping and wrecking everything you hit with it. You can also set up against Kukui, since his Lyncanroc can't kill you that easily. Set up, then Thousand Arrows away! (With a side dish of Outrage thanks to move relearner) You can try to set up on Acerola as well, but the frosslass and enormous bulk of Passoland makes that iffy, and Hala's crew hits too hard in general.

I was a little extreme when I said 50/50 on Kahili. It depends on how badly Skarmory wants to set up Spikes (She chose not to set any against me, meaning I couldn't set up past +1, which allowed Mandibuzz to survive Rock Slide and finish me off.)

I actually forgot about Kukui :/. I believe I just went ahead and led with Dugtrio. But looking back, you still only get one turn of set up if he goes rocks > crunch, and if you fail any OHKO (likely, considering lack of SE coverage), your sweep ends. This would be a fair matchup.

The point is, Zydog has a better run through late mid-end game than you think thanks to Thousand Arrows+Rock coverage and Espeed hitting everything neutral, and Dugtrio suffers even more in its late game run than Zydog does. At least Zydog comes out the gate with powerful moves at its disposal. Alolatrio only gets actual strong moves right before final Lusamine, and before then, it suffers even worse in many of those fights.

The issue is bigger than you think when most of the remaining battles remaining are trainer battles with multiple pokemon. Zydog was just too frail to reliably sweep. His one Totem Battle he gets OHKO'd and leaves the rest of your team without much ability to set up to bring them to an even footing. Zygarde can win these matchups, but it is not reliably going to win these matchups as compared to other teammates you likely have.

 

[IOS]

For Guzma, you DO have Rockium Z that you can slap onto Zydog , letting you smack something of his extra hard without missing, most likely Golisopod once you get up a DDance. From my experience when fighting Guzma with Zydog, Goliso prefers to try and SD up instead of going for the First Impression for whatever reason, so maybe I'm just skewed in that area.

Zygarde should generally OHKO with an X-Attack boosted Rock Slide/Continential Crush, but Rock Slide isn't available until after beating Guzma 2, meaning you'll only be able to take advantage of that strategy the third time. ZyDog is also at OHKO risk from First Impression if it doesn't have a slight level advantage and/or didn't get a 31 IV in either HP or Def.

Nana, I agree with you on. Even at equal levels and a 15 IV in HP/Def/SpDef, Zygarde is taking max 52% damage to a combo of Fake Out + Shadow Ball, allowing it to get to +2 Atk, +2 Spd which results in an outspeed and OHKO against Nana's entire team provided ZyDog has at least one level advantage or a 31 IV in Atk.

For the Hapa fight, it's pretty bad as Gastrodon/Mudsdale can even survive a +4 Thousand Arrows. Both have perfect IVs in defense, with 252 EVs invested in them (with Gastrodon having 252 EVs in HP as well) so Zy is going to be taking heavy retaliation damage against them which will probably be the nail in the coffin with Trio's Earthquake damage as well.

(FWIW, I think they're both B Tier mons)

 

[R_N]

Just wondering what the battle spot issues are?

Currently, 2 issues

When both sides Pokémon are knocked out causing both parties to have no Pokémon through the use of Rough Skin, Aftermath, Liquid Ooze, Iron Barbs, Innards Out and Rocky Helmet, the trainer whose ability caused the opponent Pokémon to get Knocked Out would be determined as the loser. However, there is currently an issue on Battle Spot where Rocky Helmet causing the knock out results in the trainer with the Pokémon holding Rocky Helmet to be determined the winner.

and

As a temporary measure, the moves Memento & Parting Shot have been banned from all elements of Battle Spot including Free Battles, Rating Battles and any imminent Online Competitions. This is a temporary measure as they explore and fix a glitch that causes games to crash out when the Z-Powered versions of the moves are activated.

though, thinking on it, there may not be a patch as much as battle spot's servers being updated.

 

[Sefk26]

About Zygarde 10%: I have found Extreme Speed to be not quite useful in-game. It has really low pp and this pokemon outspeed most of the game anyway. I would run instead something like Rock Slide + Thousand Arrow + DDance + Break Bricks, with Rock Slide and Break Bricks used to take care of the overwhelming amount of golbats/raticate/gumshoos in-game.

 

[LunaStik]

Can we also have discussion on potentially dropping Zygarde-50 a tier? While he is technically available on Route 16, doing so requires backtracking on all 3 islands twice (both day and night because some cells are time locked). So while available midgame, this doesn't sound especially efficient. I am not commenting on 50's performance as I didn't use 50. However, he does fix Zydog's major issue of bulk and is thus able to set up consistently, and has the bulk to participate in Lusamine and set up, unlike Zydog.