Super-Effectivemons

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Ghoul King, as I stated I'm done with this argument. Mons that gain nothing in a metagame and are bad in standard metagames aren't likely to be good in metas like this, and none of that will change in any metagame. I never meant to suggest stabmons sable was bad, I was saying that stabmons sable restricted to gaining one move is mediocre, and learning no new moves besides misty terrain is flat out bad. Defensive grass types? What to they do? Toxic/leech seed immunity says hi. I don't know who you've been playing, but mega sableye is something I have yet to see.

You can agree to disagree, but I don't really care right now. Go crazy. Attack me. Attack my intelligence and my stance on the viability of certain mons. I'm emotionally wiped right now and could care less.
 
Ghoul King, as I stated I'm done with this argument. Mons that gain nothing in a metagame and are bad in standard metagames aren't likely to be good in metas like this, and none of that will change in any metagame. I never meant to suggest stabmons sable was bad, I was saying that stabmons sable restricted to gaining one move is mediocre, and learning no new moves besides misty terrain is flat out bad. Defensive grass types? What to they do? Toxic/leech seed immunity says hi. I don't know who you've been playing, but mega sableye is something I have yet to see.

You can agree to disagree, but I don't really care right now. Go crazy. Attack me. Attack my intelligence and my stance on the viability of certain mons. I'm emotionally wiped right now and could care less.
I'm more retaliating at you implicitly insulting the intelligence of people using such 'mons (When you're not dismissing them because you analyzed them in this meta and concluded they are bad, you're just pointing to how they're not popular in OU/most OMs[?]) than anything else. I'm not interested in tearing you down unless you insist on being an asshole, honestly.

I'm baffled as to why you're implying that Grass types get nothing/little out of Super Effectivemons when being a type with many weaknesses means tending to get major movepool gains, though. I also meant to be more explicit in the previous post that Tail Glow Celebi isn't "setup bait" after a Parting Shot -it's barely inconvenienced, which is part of why I commented on Celebi at all. It has a lot going for it in this meta and as a counter to that Starmie build. (It's not like Heatran can wall Celebi: it gets Earth Power)

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On a less confrontational note, is Valmanway ever going to update the OP to reflect the decisions thus far? :(

Right now it's way out of date, and it has some problematic examples, like saying Charizard doesn't get Ground moves from X but does get them from Charmelion, which as it's currently handled is a bit confusing looking.

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Also weather is really interesting looking in Super Effectivemons. Ludicolo and Keldeo get Hurricane and Keldeo gets Thunder (Really, a lot of Swift Swimmers get Thunder), Mega Charizard Y and Politoed get Volt Switch while Tyranitar and Abomasnow get U-Turn and recovery, many Grass types pick up Fire coverage to abuse in the sun (eg Blue Flare Venusaur, V-Create Leafeon/Tangrowth/others (Heck, Special Grass types can run V-Create to surprise Chansey), while Hail gets... um... well, Sigilyph has Magic Guard and gains Blizzard so I guess it's a possibility. Or you could try Overcoaters weak to Ice, but Wormadam-Grass is the only one that's more Specially weighted than Physically weighted and it's not very good or synergistic with a Hail team. (Steel is the only Ice weakness it doesn't have!) Sigilyph shares a Rock weakness with your Ice types, so it's not optimal either, though double-resisting Fighting is something. Sandstorm doesn't get much because Weather Ball isn't being passed out and it's the only Rock weather move of any sort, but just being able to have Tyranitar slow U-Turn out to Excadrill (Which in turn has Thousand Arrows and V-Create to kill everything) is plenty amazing, especially since Tyranitar can run bulky with recovery to do this as many times as it takes, making it an excellent support 'mon to Excadrill.

Mostly Rain looks amazing and Sun a bit less troubled, in particular trying to wall the Grass types with Steel Pokemon like Skarmory is just asking to lose something.

I've actually already got a rain team, need to get around to making a sun team.

EDIT: Only just found out Monte Cristo committed suicide, didn't mean to be that insensitive. Sorry.
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Just played some of this on aqua and it is basically weather fun. Ttar gets u-turn and poli gets volt switch. But why I think I won with sand is that exca is insane, while hurricane ludicolo is merely cute. Bring on gen 5!
Also volt turn is ubiquitous. Pretty HO based. Also use rotom! Sure exca beats it now but it seems crazy in theory.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3210

Rain SEmons dies horribly.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3211

In which my Rain SEmons team is actually successful.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3212

In which Kyurem-Black murders everything. It might deserve a suspect.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3214

A more balanced match, with rampant setup.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3274

Sun vs Rain. Sun wins.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3275

Rain vs a more conventional team. Rain loses.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3277

My doom team. It wins.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-triplescustomgame-3325

A Triples SEmons match. Cool stuff.


Weather is a lot more relevant than it is in Standard, but I have my doubts that weather is going to be a dominant force. "Full" weather teams are still sacrificing too much, in terms of utility 'mons and so on. Weather cores -using Mega Charizard Y as a lead/wallbreaker that can Volt Switch out to an abuser, Tyranitar U-Turning out to Excadrill, etc- look interesting, though.

The last replay is SEmons Triples. I'm surprised at how much I like SEmons Triples, actually.

Something you basically need to be prepared for, period, is Stored Power Quiver Dancing Latis. They can literally just run Quiver Dance/Roost/Stored Power/coverage (I like Spacial Rend, personally, but an anti-Steel move might make more sense) and sweep underprepared teams. (Not unprepared teams. Underprepared) Unaware isn't good enough: you need to be able to force it out, or reverse or reset its stat gains, and fast.

In general Bug weakness Pokemon are one of the more influential things in the meta, thus far. The sheer diversity it brings to the table means they can be hard to predict, and more threatening as a result.
 
Okay, so something I'm already wondering from the first two replays: Why don't you have Bug Buzz or Hurricane on Ludicolo? Even after the first game (depending on what order these were played) Celebi shutting it down is really obvious, so the SE coverage seems like a no brainer.

EDIT: Finally saw the game against the "more conventional team" and see that you put Hurricane on Ludi. Good, it 2HKO'd Amoongus.

EDIT 2: Well, that's what I get for not seeing your sets.
 
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I have Hurricane on Ludicolo. I didn't use it in the second replay because Scald was the most effective thing on several switch-ins and would KO Celebi at that point. I didn't use it earlier in that replay because I thought Celebi would switch and also overestimated the amount of damage U-Turn would do.

I use it almost immediately in "rain vs a more conventional team".
 
A list of the OU and BL Pokémon and some notable new moves they get

(Mega) Alakazam
Weaknesses: Bug, Dark, Ghost
Gets Tail Glow, Quiver Dance and Dark Void. Pretty neat

Mega Altaria
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice, Electric (Swablu), Dragon (Base form), Fairy, Poison, Steel
Looks like it gets a lot, but really the only useful moves it gets are Shift Gear and possibly Spacial Rend. Still a solid Pokémon though

Azumarill
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric, Poison, Steel (Azurill)
Bolt Strike and Power Whip can help it break through opposing bulky Water types, while Shift Gear can help it sweep late game. Good stuff

Bisharp
Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground, Fire
Close Combat and Precipice Blades/Earthquake are good coverage as always, V-create/Sacred Fire could help too

Breloom
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Flying, Poison, Fairy, Psychic, Bug (Shroomish)
V-create is as always awesome coverage, Technician Icicle Spear could be interesting too. U-turn could be helpful.

Celebi
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Bug, Poison, Flying, Dark, Ghost
Tail Glow makes Celebi insanely powerful, Fire and Ice coverage in Blue Flare and Ice Beam respectively is always nice and if it does find itself walled it can just take it out with Dark Void or scout with Parting Shot. A lot of good stuff

Chansey
Weaknesses: Fighting
Eh...Nothing useful

Charizard
Weaknesses: Electric, Rock, Ground (Charmeleon), Water, Dragon (Mega X)
Doesn't really get anything especially useful. Crabhammer could deal with Diancie and Heatran and gets a Tough Claws boost unlike Earthquake

Clefable
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison
Eh...again gets virtually nothing useful

Conkeldurr
Weaknesses: Psychic, Flying, Fairy
Play Rough could be used to wreck Mega Sableye, but I doubt that'll be common in this metagame. Can also set up its own Trick Room now

Mega Diancie
Weaknesses: Ground, Water, Grass, Steel
Good amount of stuff, Earthquake/Thousand Arrows for extra coverage and good utility moves in Spore, Spiky Shield and King's Shield

Dragonite
Weaknesses: Ice, Rock, Dragon, Fairy
Like Altaria it looks like it gets a lot but in reality not much of it is actually useful. You could try a special set with Geomancy I guess

Excadrill
Weaknesses: Ground, Water, Fighting, Fire, Ice (Drilbur), Grass (Drilbur)
Good amount of stuff. STAB Thousand Arrows helps you break through airborne Pokémon. Spore and Spiky Shield are nice utility moves

Ferrothorn
Weaknesses: Fire, Fighting
...nope, nothing useful. Ferrothorn's not a good burn spreader since Fire types do switch into it

Garchomp
Weaknesses: Ice, Dragon, Fairy
Gets the Dragon Dance it always wanted...and that's about it.

Gardevoir
Weaknesses: Ghost, Steel, Poison
Eh...nothing especially useful.

Gengar
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Psychic, Ground
Nasty Plot, Dark Void and Parting Shot are all moves Gengar can use well. Doesn't get much from Ghost, Psychic and Ground though

Gliscor
Weaknesses: Water, Ice
Haze I guess...

(Mega) Gyarados
Weaknesses: Electric, Rock, Grass (Magikarp), Fighting (Mega forme), Fairy (Mega forme), Bug (Mega forme)
Bolt Strike could be useful against opposing bulky Waters, gets reliable recovery in Heal Order (or Synthesis if not running Mega) and a scouting move in U-turn. Close Combat could be used to wreck Ferrothorn

Heatran
Weaknesses: Water, Ground, Fighting
Could use Steam Eruption to hit opposing Fire types if you dislike Earth Power, while Secret Sword lets you beat Chansey. You could even set up Spikes

Hippowdon
Weaknesses: Grass, Ice, Water
Spiky Shield and Spore are nice utility moves. Icicle Crash could be used for extra coverage if you dislike Stone Edge's accuracy.

Hoopa-Alt
Weaknesses: Bug, Fairy, Dark (Confined), Ghost (Confined)
Geomancy makes it a very scary sweeper, Sucker Punch helps bypass lacklustre Speed, Parting Shot could be used to scout and Dark Void could put a would be counter out of commission. Tail Glow is an option as well, although its Speed is pretty lacklustre. Scary stuff

Jirachi
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Fire, Ground
Nasty Plot, Dark Void and Parting Shot are useful as ever. Sacred Fire with Serene Grace is good for a guaranteed burn, while Earth Power and Blue Flare are nice coverage moves to hit opposing Steel types. You can even set up Spikes if you want. Lots of good stuff

Keldeo
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric, Psychic, Flying, Fairy
Synthesis for reliable recovery, Energy Ball and Thunderbolt for opposing Water types, and a great boosting move in Geomancy. If Mega Venusaur presents a problem, you also get Oblivion Wing. Damn that's scary

Klefki
Weaknesses: Fire, Ground
Prankster Will-O-Wisp...and that's it

Kyurem-Black
Weaknesses: Fighting, Steel, Rock, Dragon, Fairy
Close Combat, Shift Gear, Diamond Storm and Geomancy. Pretty good

Landorus-T
Weaknesses: Water, Ice
Eh...you get Icicle Crash if you really hate Gliscor. Nothing else notable

Latias
Weaknesses: Bug, Dark, Ghost, Dragon, Ice, Fairy
God damn that's a lot of good stuff! Tail Glow, Dark Void, Parting Shot, Spacial Rend and Geomancy! Geomancy + Stored Power = death.

Latios
See Latias

Mega Lopunny
Weaknesses: Fighting, Flying (Mega), Psychic (Mega), Fairy (Mega)
You only really get a more reliable Fighting STAB in Close Combat from this. Bulk Up could be used to boost I guess

Magnezone
Weaknesses: Ground, Fire, Fighting
Earth Power, Blue Flare and Aura Sphere/Secret Sword/Focus Blast enable Magnezone to trap and kill just about every defensive Steel type.

Manaphy
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric
Reliable recovery in Synthesis is nice, and you get Volt Switch for scouting. Other than that though, it doesn't get much. Spore isn't very useful for Manaphy as it tends to draw in bulky Grass types

Mega Manectric
Weaknesses: Ground
Earth Power is some extra coverage I guess...

Mega Metagross
Weaknesses: Fire, Ground, Dark, Ghost
Tough Claws V-create is very scary. You could also shut down a would be counter with Dark Void, or use Parting Shot to scout. You could even try a bulky booster set with Curse and Gyro Ball (I don't recommend this), and you get Tough Claws Knock Off and Drill Run.

Mew
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Bug
Parting Shot and Dark Void are as ever useful utility moves. Tail Glow or Quiver Dance combined with Mew's movepool could be extremely threatening

Raikou
Weaknesses: Ground
See Mega Manectric

Rotom-Wash
Weaknesses: Grass, Ground, Dark (base), Ghost (base), Rock (Oven), Water (Oven), Bug (Mow), Ice (Mow), Fire (Mow), Poison (Mow), Fighting (Freezer)
Everything you could ever possibly want. Reliable recovery in Heal Order, better STAB in Steam Eruption and all the coverage you could ever need, boosting in Quiver Dance and Tail Glow, and 2 sleep inducing moves (although Dark Void's better for Rotom-W)

Mega Sableye
Weaknesses: Fairy
Eh...nothing particularly useful

Scizor
Weaknesses: Fire, Rock (Scyther), Ice (Scyther), Electric (Syther), Flying (Scyther)
Extra coverage in V-create and Bolt Strike, Technician Rock Blast and Icicle Spear could be interesting too

Serperior
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Flying, Bug, Poison
Gone is the formerly crap movepool. Contrary V-create and Overheat are incredible. Also gets Ice Beam to hit Dragon types and opposing Grass types. U-turn could be used to scout

Skarmory
Weaknesses: Fire, Electric
Nothing really useful

(Mega) Slowbro
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric, Dark, Bug, Ghost
Giga Drain and Thunderbolt could be useful to hit opposing bulky Water types, Quiver Dance is a nice alternative to Calm Mind and Regenerator with Parting Shot/U-turn/Volt Switch is great for scouting. Dark Void's useful as ever. Good stuff

Starmie
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric, Dark, Bug, Ghost
Tail Glow with 115 base Speed makes for a frightening special sweeper. Dark Void is more useful than Spore as only Insomnia/Magic Bounce Pokémon are immune

Sylveon
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison, Fighting (Eevee)
Secret Sword and Aura Sphere are useful coveage moves. You could even try a Coil set with Shift Gear or Coil (I don't recommend this)

Talonflame
Weaknesses: Water, Rock, Electric, Ice (Fletchling)
Crabhammer and Bolt Strike are useful coverage moves

Thundurus
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice
Gets the BoltBeam combo, and Prankster Haze

Tornadus-Therian
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice, Electric
Say hello to the best Rain abuser with perfectly accurate Hurricanes and Thunders.

(Mega) Tyranitar
Weaknesses: Fighting, Water, Ground, Grass, Bug, Steel, Fairy, Ice (Pupitar)
Close Combat and Thousand Waves for coverage, reliable recovery in Heal Order, scouting in U-turn, a boosting move in Shift Gear, reliable Sleep inducing in Spore...Just in case you thought Tyranitar's movepool was too small. That's scary

Mega Venusaur
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Flying, Psychic
You could try a bulky Calm Mind set. You also get a better recovery move in Roost and Defog if you care

Weavile
Weaknesses: Fighting, Steel, Rock, Fire, Bug, Fairy
Close Combat and V-create help with bulky Steel types, U-turn could be used for scouting. Good stuff

Zapdos
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice
Ice Beam for BoltBeam, but nothing else really notable


Crawdaunt
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric, Fighting, Bug, Fairy
Close Combat is useful coverage, while U-turn could be used to scout. Bolt Strike and Power Whip can hit opposing bulky Waters harder than Knock Off

Diggersby
Weaknesses: Fighting, Water, Grass, Ice
You can beat Quagsire now with Power Whip, or run a gimmicky Earthquake + 3 priority moves set with Quick Attack, Mach Punch/Aqua Jet and Ice Shard

Mega Gallade
Weaknesses: Ghost, Flying, Fairy, Poison (Kirlia), Steel (Kirlia)
You could try a Shift Gear or Coil set I suppose, although I'd rather use Tyranitar.

Hawlucha
Weaknesses: Flying, Ice, Electric, Psychic, Fairy
Bolt Strike could be used to flatten Skarmory and Mega Slowbro, Play Rough could be used to get through Mega Sableye.

Mega Medicham
Weaknesses: Ghost, Flying, Fairy
Shadow Sneak could help you get through Gengar. Aside from that, nothing notable

Mega Pidgeot
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice, Electric
No Guard Zap Cannon and Blizzard, nice

Mega Pinsir
Weaknesses: Rock, Fire, Flying, Electric (Mega), Ice (Mega)
Mega Pinsir's cramped for moveslots as is, and only Sacred Fire is useful to smash Skarmory

Scolipede
Weaknesses: Rock, Fire, Flying, Psychic
V-create could be used to get through Skarmory, while you could Baton Pass a pseudo Quiver Dance with Calm Mind and Speed Boost. It could also be a fast Stealth Rock setter

Staraptor
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice, Electric
Reckless Volt Tackle could be used to break through Skarmory and Slowbro, but other than that Staraptor doesn't get much

Terrakion
Weaknesses: Ground, Fighting, Steel, Water, Grass, Psychic, Fairy
Crabhammer could be used to hit Gliscor and Landorus-T, Spore could put a would be counter out of commission, Play Rough could be used to nail Mega Sableye. Pretty good

Thunurus-T
See Thundurus

Togekiss
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison, Ice, Electric, Rock
Thunderbolt could be used for opposing Flying types, but it doesn't really get anything especially useful

Victini
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Rock, Water, Ground
88% accurate Dark Void, Nasty Plot with Stored Power and 93% accurate Blue Flare, 103% accurate Steam Eruptions and even 93% accurate Precipice Blades and Parting Shot for choice sets. Lots of good stuff

Volcarona
Weaknesses: Rock, Water, Flying
Could use Steam Eruption to get through Heatran I guess
 
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(Mega) Alakazam
Weaknesses: Bug, Dark, Ghost
Gets Tail Glow, Quiver Dance and Dark Void. Pretty neat
It could also be a decent Parting Shotter, though overall yeah Tail Glow, maybe Quiver Dance, sorts of sets are liable to be its main thing.

Mega Altaria
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice, Electric (Swablu), Dragon (Base form), Fairy, Poison, Steel
Looks like it gets a lot, but really the only useful moves it gets are Shift Gear and possibly Spacial Rend. Still a solid Pokémon though
It can use Fusion Bolt/Bolt Strike as a way of getting around Skarmory instead of running Fire Blast, with secondary utility in terms of, among other things, denying Heatran any possibility of switching in safely. Bulky Coil sets are also an interesting alternative, though yeah it'll probably stick to Shift Gear.

If you're really confident in yourself, you could give a crack at Special Geomancy builds.

Chansey
Weaknesses: Fighting
Eh...Nothing useful
Circle Throw lets it phaze non-Ghost special setup mons like the previously covered Stored Power Quiver Dance Lati builds. Scarf Blissey with Final Gambit is also, against teams with no Ghost, essentially telling your opponent "pick which 'mon you want to lose".

Charizard
Weaknesses: Electric, Rock, Ground (Charmeleon), Water, Dragon (Mega X)
Doesn't really get anything especially useful. Crabhammer could deal with Diancie and Heatran and gets a Tough Claws boost unlike Earthquake
Or you could run Drill Run to get the Tough Claws boost. Mega Charizard Y also very much appreciates Earth Power as a way to break Heatran reliably.

Clefable
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison
Eh...again gets virtually nothing useful
King's Shield.

Outside of that... yeah. I guess Physical Coil/Shift Gear sets are a possibility, but Clefable doesn't have Play Rough.

Conkeldurr
Weaknesses: Psychic, Flying, Fairy
Play Rough could be used to wreck Mega Sableye, but I doubt that'll be common in this metagame
Can now set its own Trick Room. Also gains Roost for reliable recovery, potentially making bulky Guts sets longer-lived, can Trick Bands or Flame Orbs onto the opposition, and has weird gimmicky stuff like Agility open to it.

Ferrothorn
Weaknesses: Fire, Fighting
...nope, nothing useful. Ferrothorn's not a good burn spreader since Fire types do switch into it
Actually, it has innate access to Stone Edge, making Fire types potentially risky to switch into it. And, again: Circle Throw. And Counter.

Garchomp
Weaknesses: Ground, Ice, Dragon, Fairy
Gets the Dragon Dance it always wanted...and that's about it.
It's not weak to Ground, and if it were it would be an unholy terror.

Gardevoir
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Steel, Poison
Nasty Plot, Dark Void and Parting Shot are all good moves. Doesn't get anything especially useful from Ghost, Steel and Poison
Fairy resists Dark, so Gardevoir isn't weak to it. And, again, King's Shield is great on it. (Other than that... yeah, not much)

Gengar
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Psychic, Ground
Like Gardevoir, Nasty Plot, Dark Void and Parting Shot are all moves Gengar can use well. Doesn't get much from Ghost, Psychic and Ground though
Earth Power lets it break Specially Defensive Heatran reliably, while Psychic provides a hilarious grab bag of tricks. Guard Split Gengar could be an amusing way to punish attempts to switch in walls, it can set dual screens...

Gliscor
Weaknesses: Water, Ice
Nothing useful
Haze. Also, if it wants it can spread Burns with Scald. That's about it, but it's not irrelevant.

(Mega) Gyarados
Weaknesses: Electric, Rock, Grass (Magikarp), Fighting (Mega forme), Fairy (Mega forme), Bug (Mega forme)
Bolt Strike could be useful against opposing bulky Waters, gets reliable recovery in Heal Order (or Synthesis if not running Mega) and a scouting move in U-turn. Close Combat could be used to wreck Ferrothorn
Mega Gyarados is going to be an epic stallbreaker, honestly.

Latias
Weaknesses: Bug, Dark, Ghost, Dragon, Ice, Fairy
God damn that's a lot of good stuff! Tail Glow, Dark Void, Parting Shot, Spacial Rend and Geomancy! Geomancy + Stored Power = death.
Quiver Dance is better, so you can Roost up and keep going. At +6, Stored Power is still only 140 BP -which is equivalent to Boomburst spam, but Quiver Dance can actually realistically reach better heights, is less distressed by phazing/prankster Haze/Prankster Topsy-Turvy, and gets an actual item.

If you want to go the instant payoff route, I'd just take Tail Glow and more conventional attacking moves. The Latis already outspeed most of the meta on their own.

Manaphy
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric
Reliable recovery in Synthesis is nice. Other than that though, it doesn't get much. Spore isn't very useful for Manaphy as it tends to draw in bulky Grass types
I'd sooner have Politoed Volt Switch to it and use Rest, rather than lean on Synthesis. Manaphy also picks up the ability to spread Paralysis through Thunder Wave, act as a cleric with Aromatherapy... and it has more niche stuff like Worry Seed.

Mega Metagross
Weaknesses: Fire, Ground, Dark, Ghost
Tough Claws V-create is very scary. You could also shut down a would be counter with Dark Void, or use Parting Shot to scout. You could even try a bulky booster set with Curse and Gyro Ball (I don't recommend this)
Don't forget Tough Claws Knock Off, and Tough Claws Drill Run. Shadow Sneak as priority might also be useful for it. It also has Tough Claws Foul Play, but it will usually hit harder off its own Attack so eh.

Serperior
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Flying, Bug, Poison
Gone is the formerly crap movepool. Contrary V-create and Overheat are incredible. Also gets Ice Beam to hit Dragon types and opposing Grass types. U-turn could be used to scout
Oblivion Wing lets it beat Mega Venusaur nearly instantly, and lets it heal while murdering things. It still doesn't have anything beyond Hidden Power for Specially Defensive Heatran, but eh.

Skarmory
Weaknesses: Fire, Electric
Nothing really useful
Dropping Will o Wisps/Sacred Fires is useful, and being able to Volt Switch scout is invaluable. Or it can spread Paralysis with Thunder Wave.

(Mega) Slowbro
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric, Dark, Bug, Ghost
Energy Ball and Thunderbolt could be useful to hit opposing bulky Water types, Quiver Dance is a nice alternative to Calm Mind and Regenerator with Parting Shot is great for scouting. Dark Void's useful as ever. Good stuff
It can also Volt Switch out if it's concerned about Defiant/Competitive. I'd sooner take Giga Drain or Seed Flare over Energy Ball -the former for longevity, the latter for raw firepower.

Sylveon
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison, Fighting (Eevee)
Secret Sword and Aura Sphere are useful coveage moves. You could even try a Bulk Up set with Drain Punch (I don't recommend this)
You wouldn't run a Bulk Up set because it would be a Coil set. And frankly Physical Sylveon would probably be Shift Gear anyway.

Thundurus
Weaknesses: Rock, Ice
Gets the BoltBeam combo, and not much else
Prankster Haze.

Mega Venusaur
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Flying, Psychic
You could try a bulky Calm Mind set. You also get a better recovery move in Roost and Defog if you care
It can also spread Burns, and again Psychic is a silly grab bag of tricks. And Oblivion Wing is actually pretty cool for keeping it in the game longer.

Crawdaunt
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric, Fighting, Bug, Fairy
Close Combat is useful coverage, while U-turn could be used to scout. Bolt Strike and Power Whip can hit opposing bulky Waters harder than Knock Off
Crawdaunt's Attack/Special Attack scores aren't actually that far apart -120 vs 90. Here it gets Quiver Dance and Geomancy, allowing Special sets to actually pull ahead of Physical sets in raw firepower/overall utility (Barring losing out on Knock Off and Aqua Jet's utility), while also compensating for the fact that its Special Defense is awful. Even if it's overall lower viability than the Physical set in the end, it'll still be valid as a trap: here comes the Physical wall, oops wrong Pokemon.

Diggersby
Weaknesses: Fighting, Water, Grass, Ice
Doesn't really get anything that useful
Now it can kill Quagsire reliably without running friggin' Grass Knot. It can also put enemies to Sleep, cure itself of a Burn (And its allies too), it gains three forms of priority...

Mega Gallade
Weaknesses: Ghost, Flying, Fairy, Poison (Kirlia), Steel (Kirlia)
You could try a Shift Gear set I suppose, although I'd rather use Tyranitar
I'm confused as to why you remembered Gallade not getting Dark from Kirlia when you messed it up with Gardevoir.

More likely Mega Gallade might run a Coil set. It's plenty fast as-is. Overall, yeah, it doesn't get a lot, I suspect.

Hawlucha
Weaknesses: Flying, Ice, Electric, Psychic, Fairy
Bolt Strike could be used to flatten Skarmory and Mega Slowbro, Play Rough could be used to get through Mega Sableye.
It also directly upgrades its Flying offense to Dragon Ascent, it again gains access to the Psychic grab-bag -if you anticipate a Talonflame switch you can hit it with Skill Swap- and Ice Shard providing priority might help it against some priority abusers. (Unfortunately, even at +2 and with Stealth Rock on the field, Talonflame still survives an Ice Shard)

Mega Medicham
Weaknesses: Ghost, Flying, Fairy
Play Rough is the only notable move
Replace Bullet Punch with Shadow Sneak for an overall superior form of priority. Who cares that Normal is immune? You murder Normal with High Jump Kick or Drain Punch anyway. It's stuff like Gengar that normally gives Mega Medicham trouble.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 220-260 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

That's way better than Bullet Punch.

Scolipede
Weaknesses: Rock, Fire, Flying, Psychic
V-create could be used to get through Skarmory, while you could Baton Pass a pseudo Quiver Dance with Calm Mind and Speed Boost. It could also be a fast Stealth Rock setter
You can't Baton Pass Speed and other stats anymore. Scolipede can also Baton Pass Cosmic Power, which is excellent, it can spread Burns, and it even has reliable recovery in the form of Roost.

Togekiss
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison, Ice, Electric, Rock
Thunderbolt could be used for opposing Flying types, but it doesn't really get anything especially useful
Again, King's Shield. Also, Hustle sets love getting Coil to remove the inaccuracy.

Volcarona
Weaknesses: Rock, Water, Flying
Could use Steam Eruption to get through Heatran I guess
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-410 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Flying also gives it Oblivion Wing instead of Hurricane, which can give it more longevity against a lot of threats without having to run Roost and be limited to two attacking moves. Which also combos well with Water Spout.
 
Can't believe I forgot about Gardevoir not getting Dark moves. I feel stupid now... Trick Room Conkeldurr's sounding pretty interesting now. Looking forward to this metagame being playable, it'll be refreshing to have an OM that ISN'T full of Boomburst and E-Speed spam.

Since Togekiss doesn't get Play Rough or any physical Flying moves apart from Fly and Aerial Ace, Hustle sets aren't very good. Pokémon like Ferrothorn and Venusaur aren't good burn spreaders since Fire types often switch in on them (I've never seen a Stone Edge Ferrothorn). Same for Skarmory but I'll give you Thunder Wave, even though Electric types often switch into it.

Never thought about Geomancy Crawdaunt, that could be interesting. There's a lot of possibilities with this OM.
 
Can now set its own Trick Room. Also gains Roost for reliable recovery, potentially making bulky Guts sets longer-lived, can Trick Bands or Flame Orbs onto the opposition, and has weird gimmicky stuff like Agility open to it.
I think what's interesting is that all Fighting types (save a few) now have access to Roost and Defog. Call me crazy, but I could see Conk being a pretty decent bulky hazard remover, especially since it resists SR.

Anyway, here are a few lower-tier threats who I think deserve some recognition:

Roserade is much more dangerous as an offensive mon. Steel types, which used to be able to wall it semi-reliably, get torched by Flamethrower or Fire Blast, and it can trade in Extrasensory for Psychic (or even Psystrike). Oblivion Wing doesn't sound half bad as a coverage move either.

Cobalion I could see running a pretty decent AV set, since it has great natural bulk, good attack, and now STAB Drain Punch to supplement its recovery. Then again, an Assault Vest would disallow you from using Will-o-Wisp, which may be too good to pass up.

Mega Sharpedo gets Strong Jaw-boosed Thunder Fang for additional coverage, which is... you know... neat.

Mega Beedrill, like Roserade, gets a lot scarier with the addition of Fire-type coverage. Oh, you're going to switch in Ferrothorn?

252 Atk Mega Beedrill Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 328-388 (93.1 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Oh, you're going to switch in Skarmory?

252 Atk Mega Beedrill Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Beyond that... it gets Flying, Psychic and Rock coverage too, but I don't think those are as important.

Dragalge, as someone mentioned, gets Earth Power to cover Steel types, but it's also capable of setting up its own Trick Room now, and it can swap out Draco Meteor for the more reliable Spacial Rend.

Scizor
Weaknesses: Fire, Rock (Scyther), Ice (Scyther), Electric (Syther), Flying (Scyther)
Extra coverage in V-create and Bolt Strike, Technician Rock Blast and Icicle Spear could be interesting too
I think Technician Flame Wheel could also work as a safer but less powerful alternative to Flare Blitz or V-Create.
 
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Why would you run Fire Blast on Roserade when you could run Blue Flare instead? 20 more BP and a higher burn rate. Roserade got me thinking about UU in general - as Braviary and Kyurem have shown in AAA, sometimes lower tier Pokémon can shine in an OM.

Mega Abomasnow
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Bug, Poison, Fighting, Steel, Rock
U-turn for scouting, Roost as recovery, V-create/Sacred Fire/Blue Flare as extra coverage, Close Combat/Aura Sphere for coverage, Shift Gear, Quiver Dance and Coil as boosting moves, even Diamond Storm if you want to hit Fire types hard. Lots of good stuff

Mega Absol
Weaknesses: Bug, Fighting, Fairy
U-turn could be used to scout, and you could swap out Superpower for Close Combat. You could even try a Tail Glow set, as Mega Absol still has great Special Attack

(Mega) Aerodactyl
Weaknesses: Steel, Water, Rock, Ice, Electric
Regular Aerodactyl can now spam recoil free Head Smashes, while Mega Aerodactyl gets Tough Claws boosted Bolt Strike, Crabhammer and Ice Punch. It can use Head Smash, but the recoil will quickly wear it down.

Mega Aggron
Weaknesses: Ground, Fighting, Water (base forme), Fire
Sacred Fire could be used to hit opposing bulky Steel types, Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows offers an upgrade over Earthquake, but the thing Aggron really wanted was reliable recovery, and it still doesn't get it

Mega Ampharos
Weaknesses: Ground, Ice (mega forme), Dragon (mega forme), Fairy (mega forme)
Loads of cool stuff. Mold Breaker Earth Power lets you smash Heatran and Rotom-A (besides Mow), Ice gives you Haze and BoltBeam, Dragon means you can now use Draco Meteor or Spacial Rend while Fairy offers a form of reliable recovery in Moonlight

Arcanine
Weaknesses: Rock, Ground, Water
Diamond Storm and Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows mean bulky Fire types won't wall you anymore. Water doesn't offer anything especially useful though

Azelf
Weaknesses: Bug, Dark, Ghost
Tail Glow and Quiver Dance as boosting moves, Dark Void and Parting Shot for some extra utility and Sucker Punch for priority. Good stuff

Mega Beedrill
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Rock, Psychic
V-create and Sacred Fire mean you can't just send in your bulky Steel type anymore. Diamond Storm can be used to hit Fire types hard. You could even wreck an enemy's defences with Guard Swap before switching out. Nice

Mega Blastoise
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric
Volt Switch could help you grab momentum and hit opposing bulky Waters hard, while Grass offers Giga Drain, Synthesis and Spiky Shield (and technically Spore but there are better Pokémon to use that move). Not bad, but still outclassed by Starmie in most regards

Blissey
Weaknesses: Fighting
Gets phazing in Circle Throw, not much other than that

Chandelure
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Ground, Rock, Water
Boosting in Nasty Plot and Rock Polish, extra coverage in Earth Power and Steam Eruption. Solid 'mon


To be continued...
 
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(Mega) Aerodactyl
Weaknesses: Steel, Water, Rock, Ice, Electric
Regular Aerodactyl can now spam recoil free Head Smashes, while Mega Aerodactyl gets Tough Claws boosted Bolt Strike, Crabhammer and Ice Punch. It can use Head Smash, but the recoil will quickly wear it down.
Don't forget regular Aerodactyl can also toss out Volt Tackle.

Mega Aerodactyl is probably best off with Diamond Storm for Rock STAB.

It also has King's Shield to surprise most priority.

Mega Aggron
Weaknesses: Ground, Fighting, Water (base forme), Fire
Sacred Fire could be used to hit opposing bulky Steel types, Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows offers an upgrade over Earthquake, but the thing Aggron really wanted was reliable recovery, and it still doesn't get it
Drain Punch+Aqua Ring is something for recovery. Not much, but something.

Arcanine
Weaknesses: Rock, Ground, Water
Diamond Storm and Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows mean bulky Fire types won't wall you anymore. Water doesn't offer anything especially useful though
Water provides priority that isn't the awful Normal type. Special Arcanine might appreciate Scald, too.

Mega Beedrill
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Rock, Psychic
V-create and Sacred Fire mean you can't just send in your bulky Water type anymore. Diamond Storm can be used to hit Fire types hard. You could even wreck an enemy's defences with Guard Swap before switching out. Nice
Magic Coat and Lunar Dance are interesting looking possibilities to me: the former to surprise Pranksters trying to drop a Thunder Wave or Will O Wisp, the latter for when Mega Beedrill is close to burning out anyway.

Since Togekiss doesn't get Play Rough or any physical Flying moves apart from Fly and Aerial Ace, Hustle sets aren't very good.
Hustle Togekiss is still one of the strongest Extreme Speeds around -strong enough that I've seen Banded Extreme Speed Togekiss in metas doing nothing to support that-, and Aerial Ace is acceptably powerful. The lack of Play Rough hurts, though.

Roserade is much more dangerous as an offensive mon. Steel types, which used to be able to wall it semi-reliably, get torched by Flamethrower or Fire Blast, and it can trade in Extrasensory for Psychic (or even Psystrike). Oblivion Wing doesn't sound half bad as a coverage move either.
It's also basically free to run Natural Cure instead of Technician, since it doesn't care nearly as much about Hidden Power coverage. It still struggles with Heatran if it isn't running Technician Hidden Power, though.

Mega Sharpedo gets Strong Jaw-boosed Thunder Fang for additional coverage, which is... you know... neat.
It also gets Bulk Up. One of Mega Sharpedo's problems is that it can't really push past a lot of Physical wall stallmons. Now it potentially can.

It's also actually vaguely useful that it picks up Play Rough. Dark and Fighting both resist its strongest STAB -Strong Jaws Crunch- and they're both vulnerable to Play Rough. Poison Fang is you're best thing against Fairies, but eh.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
I thought of this core (and noticed both mons mentioned separately earlier itt, when I went to check):

Aerodactyl @ Choice Band/Life Orb
Jolly/Adamant Nature
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
-Head Smash
-Volt Tackle
-Crabhammer/Shift Gear
-Earthquake/Shift Gear

Keldeo @ Choice Specs/Power Herb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 HP
Timid/Modest Nature
- Scald/Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Oblivion Wing
- Volt Switch/Seed Flare/Geomancy

Basically, the only things which resist Head Smash are Steel/Fighting/Ground, and Oblivion Wing Keldeo destroys those. I prefer the sound of Band/Specs, with a separate wincon, but you can give either mon a setup move if you wish. On 'dactyl, Head Smash is mandatory, Volt Tackle is to destroy bulky waters and Skarmory, Earthquake is for EdgeQuake and gives coverage on Steels not named Skarmory (which gets mauled by Volt Tackle anyway) and Crabhammer is for stuff like Hippowdon, though you can replace it with whatever STAB flying moves it gets.
On Keldeo, Scald vs Pump is your standard power vs consistency debate (if you're using Geomancy then Scald is preferable for the accuracy), Wing beats the Fighting types which wall Aero as well as Venusaur, and the final slow depends on what you want - Seed Flare breaks bulky waters, Volt Switch gets momentum, and Geomancy destroys souls.

I came up with this in like 5 minutes so I'm not sure what checks/counters it.

Other cool things from this thread (and from Sketchmons since a lot of that stuff can be applied here):
-Spore Dugtrio (with grass/water/ice coverage, too)
-Mega Venusaur with WoW/Leech Seed/Synthesis/Oblivion Wing
-Regenvest Slowfamily with Nuzzle/Volt Switch alongside their normal toys
-Pigs can fly, in the shape of Emboar
-Serperior gets its amazing V-Create set
-Speaking of V-Create, Speed Boost Scolipede anyone?
- Diggersby is weak to basically every single (+1) priority move except Spunch/Bpunch lol
-Every single dragon type (well, bar Dialga, Reshiram, CharX, and Dragalge) gets Geomancy. Geo Garchomp as a surprise nuke, anyone?
-Sheer Force Bolt Strike Feraligatr. Prepare your anus Venusaurs.
-Meowstic is the face of antimeta, with Prankster Topsy-Turvy, Dark Void, Parting Shot, etc.
-Jirachi has Night Daze and Sacred Fire, because flinchhax wasn't annoying enough (although at least you can't complain that Sacred Fire gets the burn...)
-Scarf Ditto checks pretty much everything that decides to run coverage which is SE on itself (aka most things)

This pastebin has a list of (semi-)viable mons and moves they gain (might not be updated).
 
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Martin

Bodacious
is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
Yeah... I've just realised that this is a thing:

Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Ice Shard / Stone Edge / Iron Head / Fire Blast
 
You know, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Mega Glalie yet, because it gets a lot of new tools. It gets Fire and Fighting as coverage, enabling it to get past Steel types, plus Shift Gear as a boosting move. And if you want to go the Hazard Stacker route, it gets Stealth Rock in addition to Spikes.
 
You know, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Mega Glalie yet, because it gets a lot of new tools. It gets Fire and Fighting as coverage, enabling it to get past Steel types, plus Shift Gear as a boosting move. And if you want to go the Hazard Stacker route, it gets Stealth Rock in addition to Spikes.
I think people are just kind of used to Mega Glalie being made of fail. Last thing I can remember that Mega Glalie was relevant in was Inheritance -- even getting Espeed in Sketchmons didn't make it viable...

Anyways, some thoughts on Excadrill:
  • +2 Excadrill has absolutely no reliable switch-ins. As mentioned above, Sacred Fire + Thousand Arrows is perfect coverage, and Excadrill 2HKOs the whole tier with it at +2. It has room to run Substitute or Sandstorm in Slot 4, giving it either status+priority resistance or letting it be a self-starter.
  • By extension, Prankster Will-O-Wisp looks useful. Beyond the existing users, we also get Klefki -- which gets goddamn near nothing else out of this meta, but it can play mind games with WoW and Magnet Rise at least. Mega Banette can also run prankster WoW, but also Dark Void, Topsy-Turvy, and Parting Shot... Mega Banette is basically STABmons Sableye, except it should probably run Protect, which Substitute Excadrill can easily abuse. But then there's always Destiny Bond.
  • If we wanna hit peak gimmick, Klefki can run Imprison + Sacred Fire + Thousand Arrows to completely shut Excadrill down. But that's silly and you (probably) shouldn't do it, considering that Excadrill could just as easily run Flare Blitz or EQ if it really wanted to.
  • Between all this status and Life Orb recoil, Excadrill really appreciates Healing Wish / Lunar Dance support. Keldeo and Gengar look like fantastic offensive support options -- beyond Lunar Dance, each gets a reliable Sleep move, Screens, and the ability to seriously pressure opposing 'mons that are merely 2HKOed by Excadrill.
  • Obvious partners: Tyranitar, Hippowdon. The former gets reliable recovery and a pivoting move, so Hippowdon would probably... uh... Leech Seed? Spore support? Take Special attacks like a chump? So yeah, Tyranitar + Excadrill.
I dunno folks, I think generic sand offense is pretty potent. Bring your Brelooms (which could run, like, Mach Punch + Flame Charge + Icicle Spear + Bullet Seed. It doesn't need Spore, that's what the rest of your team is for.).
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
I think Excadrill and Kyu-B both need bans. They are actually impossible to wall besides Unaware for Kyu-B. They are on basically every team I've played against and they destroy me even when I prepare for it. After that Serperior and Keldeo need to be looked at, but these monsters first....
 
Secret Sword Lucario! The only Pokémon in the entire game to gain Secret Sword while having STAB and wanting to actually use it. (Mega Lopunny is too Physically oriented, Terrakion is too Physically oriented, there's no Fighting/Ice Pokémon, and Pangoro and Scrafty are, again, too Physically oriented) OK I guess there's Cobalion too, but it doesn't get the Psychic, Fairy, and Flying moves Lucario gets, so Lucario has a big edge over it, especially since Lucario has innate access to Nasty Plot if it doesn't feel like going Geomancy. Cobalion has to settle for its natural access to Calm Mind, since Fighting, Ground, and Fire provide no boosting moves at all, let alone Special ones.

More replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3396

Stored Power sweep. Seriously, bring checks/counters to Latis.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3410

Kyurem-Black putting in work.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3413

And now my opponent's Meowstic-M actually has its Prankster, making it a lot more useful. I still take the day.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3620

Rain vs mixed weather. Rain wins. The game is technically illegal...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-169

In which another technically illegal game plays out, because Mega Bee was pre-set. Kyurem-Black sweeps regardless.

---

Kyurem-Black might need a ban. Shift Gear+Fighting/Steel coverage makes it almost impossible to deal with. My own set of Dragon Claw/Close Combat/Heavy Slam/Shift Gear is basically only walled by Quagsire, and Kyurem-Black has enough Special Attack it could run Ice Beam instead of Heavy Slam to bypass Quagsire and not actually suffer that much. With base 95 Speed it doesn't even need to invest in Speed to outspeed everything after a Shift Gear, allowing it to invest elsewhere -I'm running as a bulky attacker for instance, which makes it really hard to revenge it with Talonflame or the like.

Excadrill seems likely to need a ban, but thus far I haven't seen it defining games. It really needs Sand support to come into its own -it just doesn't hit hard enough if it's Scarfed and it's not fast enough if it's not Sand Rush or Scarfed- but with Sand support there's basically nothing that can stop it. Even stuff like bulky Water types can be killed by Grass coverage inherited from Drillbur. Or it could run Spore to take out key checks/counters. I'm not going to push for it unless I see more evidence that it's broken.

Valmanway, can we get a suspect on Kyurem-Black going?
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Secret Sword Lucario! The only Pokémon in the entire game to gain Secret Sword while having STAB and wanting to actually use it. (Mega Lopunny is too Physically oriented, Terrakion is too Physically oriented, there's no Fighting/Ice Pokémon, and Pangoro and Scrafty are, again, too Physically oriented) OK I guess there's Cobalion too, but it doesn't get the Psychic, Fairy, and Flying moves Lucario gets, so Lucario has a big edge over it, especially since Lucario has innate access to Nasty Plot if it doesn't feel like going Geomancy. Cobalion has to settle for its natural access to Calm Mind, since Fighting, Ground, and Fire provide no boosting moves at all, let alone Special ones.

More replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3396

Stored Power sweep. Seriously, bring checks/counters to Latis.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3410

Kyurem-Black putting in work.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3413

And now my opponent's Meowstic-M actually has its Prankster, making it a lot more useful. I still take the day.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-3620

Rain vs mixed weather. Rain wins. The game is technically illegal...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-customgame-169

In which another technically illegal game plays out, because Mega Bee was pre-set. Kyurem-Black sweeps regardless.

---

Kyurem-Black might need a ban. Shift Gear+Fighting/Steel coverage makes it almost impossible to deal with. My own set of Dragon Claw/Close Combat/Heavy Slam/Shift Gear is basically only walled by Quagsire, and Kyurem-Black has enough Special Attack it could run Ice Beam instead of Heavy Slam to bypass Quagsire and not actually suffer that much. With base 95 Speed it doesn't even need to invest in Speed to outspeed everything after a Shift Gear, allowing it to invest elsewhere -I'm running as a bulky attacker for instance, which makes it really hard to revenge it with Talonflame or the like.

Excadrill seems likely to need a ban, but thus far I haven't seen it defining games. It really needs Sand support to come into its own -it just doesn't hit hard enough if it's Scarfed and it's not fast enough if it's not Sand Rush or Scarfed- but with Sand support there's basically nothing that can stop it. Even stuff like bulky Water types can be killed by Grass coverage inherited from Drillbur. Or it could run Spore to take out key checks/counters. I'm not going to push for it unless I see more evidence that it's broken.

Valmanway, can we get a suspect on Kyurem-Black going?
quag doesnt wall that. teravolt. lmao. id imagine at +1 quag wont be able to handle the offensive pressure.
 
If sand offense gets really common:

Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard (into Trace)
Ev's: 252Spe / 252SpA / 4SpD
-Protect/Dark Void
-Tail Glow
-Psychic/Psyshock
-Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball/Dark Void

"Oh no, Excadrill has 7 turns of sand left and will wreck my team! Plz help!"
"Don't worry, I have a weird cat with a mustache and spoons to save you!"
"Yayyyy"
Sorry that was weird. Anyway, just come in on a rampaging Exca, Protect +Mega, trace Sand Rush, and perform your own sweep. It's great because it uses its own ability against him, Alakazam always being faster, and then you can counter sweep! Dark void is on there only because if you get to mega before Exca starts rampaging, then as soon as you put in MegaZam trace will activate and there's no need for protect. It's only there if you are unsure you will be mega before you need to be. Tail glow+Dark void +STAB seems simple enough, no explanation needed.

Of course, before sweeping you still have to kill Excadrill, so focus blast is the number one option, however dark void + tail glow+ psychic does this (if you get 2 sleep turns)

+3 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 326-384 (90.3 - 106.3%) --
37.5% chance to OHKO
All that's needed is 1 spike or for Excadrill to have hit once with a life orb. Not difficult.
Take that, Exca!
 
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Some more of UU and what they get:

Chesnaught
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Fairy, Bug (Chespin)
Sacred Fire for burns, Haze to combat boosting sweepers, better recovery in Roost and Heal Order, U-turn for scouting, it can even set up Toxic Spikes. Good stuff

Cloyster
Weaknesses: Grass, Rock, Electric, Fighting
Skill Link Bullet Seed and Bolt Strike means you can now get through opposing bulky Water types. Gets Spore too, to cripple a would be counter

Cobalion
Weaknesses: Fire, Fighting, Ground
Special sets get to trade out the unreliable Focus Blast for Aura Sphere or Secret Sword. A Bulk Up set with Drain Punch isn't out of the question either. It can now set up Stealth Rock and Spikes if need be. Sacred Fire / Searing Shot could be used for extra coverage

Donphan
Weaknesses: Ice, Grass, Water
Reliable recovery in Synthesis is the main thing here. Spiky Shield and Haze are solid utility moves, and it gets Spore too although there are better users of that move

Doublade
Weaknesses: Ghost, Dark, Fire, Ground
Like M-Aggron really wanted reliable recovery and still doesn't get it. It can swap out the weak Shadow Claw for the much stronger Shadow Force. Sacred Fire's a nice coverage move. It can also set up Spikes if need be, and Dark Void and Will-o-Wisp are nice utility moves which won't miss thanks to No Guard.

Dragalge
Weaknesses: Psychic, Ground, Dragon, Ice, Electric (Skrelp)
Psychic offers a boosting move in Calm Mind, Earth Power gets good coverage with STABs, Dragon means you now get Spacial Rend (you could try going physical with a Dragon Dance set). Ice and Electric offer Haze and Thunder Wave respectively

Empoleon
Weaknesses: Fighting, Electric, Ground, Grass (Piplup)
Like Donphan the main thing here is reliable recovery in Synthesis. Aura Sphere and Secret Sword are good coverage, while Thunderbolt and Giga Drain could be used to hit opposing bulky Water types. Can technically use Spore, but it tends to draw in bulky Grass types

Entei
Weaknesses: Rock, Ground, Water
It actually has a movepool now! Diamond Storm, Thousand Arrows and Crabhammer give it great all round coverage

Espeon
Weaknesses: Bug, Dark, Ghost, Fighting (Eevee)
Boosting moves in Tail Glow and Quiver Dance (the former of which can be Baton Passed), Dark Void to cripple a would be counter, Parting Shot and U-turn to scout, even coverage in Secret Sword/Aura Sphere. Great stuff

Feraligatr
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric
Sheer Force Bolt Strike to hit opposing bulky Water types. Grass doesn't offer anything that useful though (not a good Spore user, doesn't have the space and draws in bulky Grass types)

Florges
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison
Eh. Shift Gear and Coil would be awesome on a physically orientated Fairy, which Florges most certainly isn't. King's Shield is nice though

Forretress
Weaknesses: Fire, Rock (Pineco), Flying (Pineco)
Reliable recovery in Roost is the best thing it gets out of this. Sacred Fire/Will-o-Wisp could be used to cripple a would be counter.

Galvantula
Weaknesses: Fire, Rock
Can set up Stealth Rock now too, also gets Compound Eyes Will-o-Wisp and Blue Flare

Gligar
Weaknesses: Water, Ice
Haze to stop boosting sweepers...and that's pretty much it

Goodra
Weaknesses: Ice, Dragon, Fairy
Haze is solid utility, Dragon gives you any STAB you could want, Fairy offers reliable recovery in Moonlight or boosting in Geomancy. It's bulkier and has fewer weaknesses than Hydreigon

Haxorus
Weaknesses: Dragon, Ice, Fairy
Hm. Haxorus already had all the Dragon moves it could ever need, Ice isn't particularly useful, it doesn't have space for Moonlight or the Special Attack to use Geomancy

Heliolisk
Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground
Secret Sword and Earth Power are nice coverage moves

Heracross
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Psychic, Fairy
V-create is always nice, you could run Trick with a Choice item thanks to Psychic. Flying and Fairy aren't that useful for Heracross

Honchkrow
Weaknesses: Ice, Electric, Rock, Fairy
Bolt Strike's an option to hit bulky Water types. Could try Geomancy as it still has high Special Attack.

Hoopa
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Bug (Unbound), Fairy (Unbound)
Boosting moves in Quiver Dance and Geomancy, Dark Void and Parting Shot utility.

Hydreigon
Weaknesses: Fighting, Bug, Fairy, Ice, Dragon
The thing Hydreigon always wanted was a good boosting move. It now gets 3 great ones in Quiver Dance, Tail Glow and Geomancy. Secret Sword could be used to get through Chansey. Spacial Rend on boosting sets


to be continued.
 
Chesnaught
Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Fairy, Bug (Chespin)
Sacred Fire for burns, Haze to combat boosting sweepers, better recovery in Roost and Heal Order, U-turn for scouting, it can even set up Toxic Spikes. Good stuff
It can also use Coil for Physical boosting, and its Special Attack isn't that much lower than its Attack, potentially making Special sets viable via Geomancy/Quiver Dance. It can also set its own Trick Room, or run Trick Scarf.

Furthermore, Bulletproof is a lot more relevant: its immunity to Focus Blast and especially Aura Sphere is a lot less niche now that Aura Sphere is rather widespread (And Dark types can all too easily have Aura Sphere at the same time as Quiver Dance and/or Geomancy, so even normally Physically inclined Dark types may elect to run Special), Acid Spray is actually a useful supporting move (Clefable, in particular, hates it) that it's immune to and is more widespread, Searing Shot is the overall best Special Fire move (Doesn't miss, stronger than Flamethrower, more reliable BP than Eruption, etc) and it's immune... it's too bad the No Guard Zap Cannon user -Mega Pidgeot- just instagibs it with Hurricane, though. Still, you can potentially switch in on Mega Pidgeot anyway, if you're gutsy.

Just the potential to switch into Fire coverage is not to be underestimated.

Cloyster
Weaknesses: Grass, Rock, Electric, Fighting
Skill Link Bullet Seed and Bolt Strike means you can now get through opposing bulky Water types. Gets Spore too, to cripple a would be counter
Skill Link Arm Thrust lets it beat Steel types, too, without the costs/risks associated with Close Combat, High Jump Kick, etc.

Donphan
Weaknesses: Ice, Grass, Water
Reliable recovery in Synthesis is the main thing here. Spiky Shield and Haze are solid utility moves, and it gets Spore too although there are better users of that move
Eh, Leech Seed seems more useful to me than Synthesis, and combos well with Spiky Shield.

Weaknesses: Ghost, Dark, Fire, Ground
Like M-Aggron really wanted reliable recovery and still doesn't get it. It can swap out the weak Shadow Claw for the much stronger Shadow Force. Sacred Fire's a nice coverage move. It can also set up Spikes if need be, and Dark Void and Will-o-Wisp are nice utility moves which won't miss thanks to No Guard.
Shadow Force is shit and should only be used if you want to stall turns. 120 BP over 2 turns is weaker than Shadow Clawing twice. Parting Shot is also useful to it, letting it pivot.

Dragalge
Weaknesses: Psychic, Ground, Dragon, Ice, Electric (Skrelp)
Psychic offers a boosting move in Calm Mind, Earth Power gets good coverage with STABs, Dragon means you now get Spacial Rend (you could try going physical with a Dragon Dance set). Ice and Electric offer Haze and Thunder Wave respectively
It's too slow for a Dragon Dance set to be viable, you're better off setting Trick Room. Access to Volt Switch also means it can be either a slow pivot or set Trick Room and then attack-switch out to a different abuser, which is especially obnoxious since Steelix is the only Ground type that can switch into Volt Switch and Dragalge's Dragon moves, and it can't actually switch into SEmons Dragalge because of Earth Power.

Honestly, Dragalge looks like a big threat.

Empoleon
Weaknesses: Fighting, Electric, Ground, Grass (Piplup)
Like Donphan the main thing here is reliable recovery in Synthesis. Aura Sphere and Secret Sword are good coverage, while Thunderbolt and Giga Drain could be used to hit opposing bulky Water types. Can technically use Spore, but it tends to draw in bulky Grass types
Or take advantage of Defiant, run Physical, tear things apart with High Jump Kick etc. (Still lacks good Physical Steel STAB, admittedly)

Feraligatr
Weaknesses: Grass, Electric
Sheer Force Bolt Strike to hit opposing bulky Water types. Grass doesn't offer anything that useful though (not a good Spore user, doesn't have the space and draws in bulky Grass types)
Grass lets it beat Quagsire, which is critical.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Being able to vaporize Quagsire with Wood Hammer or whatever is valuable.

Florges
Weaknesses: Steel, Poison
Eh. Shift Gear and Coil would be awesome on a physically orientated Fairy, which Florges most certainly isn't. King's Shield is nice though
Actually, Coil can be used to compensate for its awful Physical Defense. Doom Desire can be used to pressure the enemy team: they switch in something, you switch out, and now they don't want to switch in anything too vulnerable to Doom Desire.

Gligar
Weaknesses: Water, Ice
Haze to stop boosting sweepers...and that's pretty much it
Eh, priority with Swords Dance has some use.

Haxorus
Weaknesses: Dragon, Ice, Fairy
Hm. Haxorus already had all the Dragon moves it could ever need, Ice isn't particularly useful, it doesn't have space for Moonlight or the Special Attack to use Geomancy
Ice Shard gives it priority. Particularly useful to Swords Dance sets, letting it deal with Landorus-Therian trying to kill it.

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 224-264 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heracross
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Psychic, Fairy
V-create is always nice, you could run Trick with a Choice item thanks to Psychic. Flying and Fairy aren't that useful for Heracross
Flying gives it Tailwind, letting it fix its Speed problem. Particularly useful to Mega Heracross. Alternatively, Mega Heracross can set Trick Room.

Admittedly, it's probably better off with teammates setting those and switching to it so it can Swords Dance and sweep, but they're relevant regardless.
 
GimmeTrickRoom (Abomasnow) @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
Ev's: 252 HP/ 252 SpAtk /4SpD
-Tail Glow
-Blizzard
-Vacuum Wave
-Giga Drain/ Searing Shot/ Earth Power/ Aura Sphere/ Power Gem/ Oblivion Wing (Aeroblast)/ Heal Order

This is just great. MegaObama
image.jpeg
I made this on photoshop for you viewing pleasure
gets an amazing set of moves, I mean, look at the coverage options. Tail glow off of 132 SpAtk with such high BP and amazing coverage means you've got yourself a sweeping terror. All that's needed is trick room, which is more or less difficult to get. Heal order is a great option to keep him alive and ease setup.

+3 252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Suicune: 444-524 (109.9 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable: 217-256 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

+3 252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 352-416 (91.4 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+3 252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 464-546 (65.9 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

+3 252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 2404-2832 (753.6 - 887.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lol

Pretty much everything else dies cuz these are some of the best specially defensive mons in OU. (LandoT was just for fun)

ForgetTrickRoomGimmeSetupBait (Abomasnow) @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
Ev's: 252 SpAtk/ 252 Spe/ 4HP
-Quiver Dance
-Blizzard/ Ice Beam
-Giga Drain/ Oblivion Wing/ Heal Order
-Searing Shot/ Earth Power/ Aura Sphere/ Power Gem/ Heal Order

MegaObama's greatest advantage has always been stomping bulky waters, so now use them to setup! Quagsire, Blastoise, Manaphy, Swampert, Gastrodon, roar-less Suicune, fireblast-less Slowbro, and more can do little to stop setup. Fishing for scald burns can shorten a sweep however if you don't have good Giga drain targets or opt not to run Heal order, but that's why it's an option. He can also setup QD's on most grass, ground, water, ice, and weak normals. 90/105/105 defenses plus recovery makes for some setup opportunities.

You're probably also thinking, "Ice beam on Abomasnow? Idiot." Well, not really since 2 quiver dances and a turn to heal takes 3 turns out of hail time. If the opponent has 4 mons that Ice coverage is best against, ice beam is reliable for the long run.

You can even go for a defensive SubSeed with heal order and Blizzard. Basically, I like MegaAbomasnow here
 
Last edited:

G-Luke

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Seeing this thread and wanting to post some cool stuff.

Serperior @ Leftovers/Life Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Contrary
Timid Nature
- V-Create
- Leaf Storm
- Roost/Oblivion Wing
- Taunt/Substitute/Dragon Pulse/Ice Beam/Other great options

The return of TankSerp! Now with reliable recovery! Serpirior is onne of those Pokes that LOVES movepool additions, and the TankSerp set turns it into a Tank/Sweeper/Stallbreaker all in one! V-Create is the crux of the set, boosting its defenses and speed while dealing considerable damage. Leaf Storm is a STAB 130 base power move that doubles as a Nasty Plot boost. Roost can be used for reliable recovery, or Oblivion Wing to do good damage + semi reliable recovery. Its last slot depends on what it ultimately needs to do to support itself or the team. Taunt or Substitut3 allow it to decimate stall, while Ice Beam provides WELL needed coverage. Haze, Sticky Web and Defog all have their merits as well. It still unfortunately struggles against Heatran, who stops SpD boosts and does care for Leaf Storm, even at +2.

Latias @ Latiasite
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Spe / 176 Def
Ability: Levitate
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Substitute

I set I've run in Sketchmons with quite some success. After mega evolving, it has the bulk to survive a Adamant Choice Band Scizor's U-Turn at full health! At +1, it outspeeds Pokwmon up to 139 base speed w/ a positive nature. After a couple QDs, it hits incredibly hard. It it last moveslot is a toss up between Moonblast or Substitute, and while Moonblast sounds amazing to smash dark types, I prefer substitute so it can smash stall alot easier, as it hates status. It also blocks priority haze. Pair it up with a Dark killer (Like Keldeo, who is FANTASTIC in this meta!) and watch the monster shred teams apart

Did I mention Kyurem is broken? STILL has no Ice physical STAB though. But Mach/Bullet Punch for bandedets. Or shift gear + Close Combat to tear shit up.
 

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