True enough, incest and the like is everywhere in Fire Emblem, but usually all of those happen either through you making it happen or from support conversations or story. This is a little different. Since it isn't heavily implied theres still a debate to be had! Not that it should take place here mind you, this thing can just easily go either way, but I think all characters are asexual until proven otherwise, and since there are nearly no pairings in this one, it falls under that category.
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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Firestorm
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True enough, incest and the like is everywhere in Fire Emblem, but usually all of those happen either through you making it happen or from support conversations or story. This is a little different. Since it isn't heavily implied theres still a debate to be had! Not that it should take place here mind you, this thing can just easily go either way, but I think all characters are asexual until proven otherwise, and since there are nearly no pairings in this one, it falls under that category.
Well, MK isstill the better character in my eyes. While, yes, Snake has some options, they don't fit to every situation, and fighting Snake's becomes much easier when you're used to Nade cooking and powershielding his tilts. Metaknight adapts quite well in every situation as he can approach most, and cause too much pressure to handle. In fact, the worst matchup MK has is to Snake. Thats pretty much it. Snake, however, gets beaten by Wolf, Pika, ROB, etc.
It's harder to approach him, yeah, but when you do, he doesnt have many options to deal with people up close. Holding a Nade is the closest thing that can be done, and thats asking to be Omnigay'd xP
Plus you can hit him in the head and the nade wont go off.
The main issue as far as matchups come is the people who dont need to approach him. ROB and Pika do quite well with they're projectiles, and Pika can CG across the stage, and wolf does the same.
They don't need to travel across the whole stage like Falco's to be useful. It has great range, and it covers a large expanse. You wont be able to shield it fast enough or reply in kind with your own stuff at the rate he's clicking B button. Snake can't outpressure Wolf here. At all. Seriously, try using your side B on a spamming wolf and see how far that gets you.
Plus, his Fsmash is great here.
His Dthrow knocks you off the cliff.
It's just not a good matchup for Snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LK5G5zZkx8
Here, because you should an interest for high level players, and dont take our words for it, have this match. Lucien vs DSF. DWC pointed me to this, and it's a great example of this matchup.
I'm going to let Light take it from here because it's not my main.
But,
Snake's airgame is pretty ass.
:P
EDIT:
This is Mr. Esc.
Tpup is logged on waiting for a PM.
Sorry for the inconvenience!
All of Snake's aerials are powerful and useful, but they are slow, so you have really no choice of air combat with him, mainly just "Get away from the stage so I can set." And as for the recovery, you can't instantly airdodge out of it I believe, so you kinda have to travel with it. Plus you can be edge hogged if you try to get out and grab the edge, and from there you're in a very bad position.
Wolf's lasers go far enough to prevent Snake from pressuring Wolf. Plus, unlike Falco's, Snake can't crawl under Wolf's without being hurt. And the Side B is slow, and reflectable. Speaking of the reflector, it either makes Wolf invincible, reflects or it destroys the grenade/Nikita launched at it. It comes out much faster that Snake can hope to throw nades or shoot missles. It can also be used to stop his mortars.
Wolf does have issues with vertical recovery. That is fact, not opinion. However, his Illusion cancelled Side B makes returning from sides easier. Don't forget that Wolf's hard to get off the stage in the first place due to weight. And the Side B spike, while rare, is in fact highly possible if you attempt to spike Wolf.
...Whats your point?
Wolf should be using the laser at points where Snake will get hit. If he steers his Nikita above the laser blast, then Snake's going to get hit. In fact, even if he does get the missile to Wolf, wolf can just powershield it off; Wolf isn't committed to his laser, Snake's stuck with aiming his missile.
It's better to not even use the Side B in this matchup unless you plan on edge guarding, and then Usmash is still probably the superior choice.
Wolf should be using the laser at points where Snake will get hit. If he steers his Nikita above the laser blast, then Snake's going to get hit. In fact, even if he does get the missile to Wolf, wolf can just powershield it off; Wolf isn't committed to his laser, Snake's stuck with aiming his missile.
It's better to not even use the Side B in this matchup unless you plan on edge guarding, and then Usmash is still probably the superior choice.
For those who don't know:
Koopa is Bowser.
PokeTore is Pokemon Trainer.
Purin is Jiggly.
Marusu is Marth.
Koopa is Bowser.
PokeTore is Pokemon Trainer.
Purin is Jiggly.
Marusu is Marth.
The canceling isn't easy, for one. Second, Wolf has the highest falling speed in the game, making it hard to even get the opportunity wherein a canceled illusion would be of any use. Plus it leaves you wide open and flying towards the stage or your opponent. Wolf is the heaviest of all the Starfox characters, but he isn't that heavy actually. Plus, Snake has some weight to him too. The Side B spike, in all my time playing as him and watching all of the videos that I have, has happened very, very few times. Even when the opponent tried to spike him, the opponent would have to be at such a precise angle and not realize the danger, which seems to be more the fault of the opponent rather than the skill of the Wolf player.
What do the asterisks indicate?
Well, no duh. You're never going to find a matchup where the advantage makes it that you will never win. Not even Marth v Ness is so onesided that you wont be able to get a win. What Im saying is that these characters have the advantage over Snake. These means that the characters are naturally better off vs Snake then he is against them. Playstyles and Skill are unrelated.
If Pikachu is used to what Snake does, then what now? Yours is an invalid point.
His tilts arent great under pressure. His Usmash isnt great under pressure. To have a grenade and drop it requires you to be out of pressure. Snake doesnt have many options, and the best of those would be the dropping of the grenade. Dropping a grenade wont help when you get grabbed and then CG'd by Pikachu, or when ROB casually tosses you, and grenades definitely dont help because Rob's laser detonates them in your hands.
Snake isnt too great up close, and I'm one of the people who think DK beats Snake out up close. He shines when he isnt up close.
hahahaha
Snake will never outcamp ROB. His laser recharges incredibly quickly and, as I mentioned, it will blow up your efforts at nade-ing him. He can aim his laser to hit a ducking Snake, and ducking in general so much means you wont be slinging things off at the rate you would normally be. You can shield the gyro, and laser if you want, but you're shield will get weakened quickly. ROB can also shield ANYTHING you throw at him, so what's your point? You wont be damaging ROB's shield at the speed he's damaging yours. Snake is going to lose a camp war with ROB.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=tYlqmXcpwTI
This isn't an example of any camp wars, as the Snake already knows he would lose that. This shows what happens closer up. When Snake is in the air, ROB goes to town on him.
Pikachu's projectile will also beat you. Nikita will travel through it, but it wont stop the Thunderjolt, so all the time you're aiming it or whatever, you'll get hit by it. His projectile will also win. Now, Pikachu CANT chaingrab every character. Snake is one of the select many who gets caught in this, and why would it matter if everyone got affected by his CG? It's still a large factor in this matchup. He will carry Snake across any field and get Snake off the edge (which, as we all know, is a bad place for a Snake). Oh, and Thunder; Snake can't get the horizontal momentum from his recovery to dodge Pikachu's thunder even with an air dodge. This is another bad matchup for Snake.
It comes out slower than most projectiles, but is faster than Snake's Nades. Wolf can shield off your Nikita, but you cant keep shielding blast after blast, and you can try to dodge forever. Snake's going to have to approach on larger stages? Like what, he has to walk a few steps ahead? Thats all there is to it. He only has to move up a bit, and if you Side B, so what? He gets a shield up and can can proceed to blasting.
Light mentioned reflecting it, so I'll leave that to him.
It's generally accepted that these three have the advantage over Snake. I dont use any of them, and I still see an advantage over Snake. Is Snake your main? That might have something to do with it :s
Well, he's got a little thing called a blaster that can... oh, what a surprise, travel off the edge.
How is that really a better example?
The wolf suicided.
I dont believe they're equally skilled, and theres no way we can tell. Their playstyles could be affecting the outcomes.
And, really, that match doesnt say much. The fact is, Snake has a disadvantage. Even if you have a disadvantage, you can still win. You just have to work harder for that win. That Snake didnt have to workk too hard, though, as the Wolf was pretty questionable looking.
Oh, and more about Campers beating Snake...
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4_iyIBcGpNA&feature=related
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=rZS4GWEOB7s&feature=related
Olimar is a beast :P
So yeah, I don't want to play theorymon with you all day.
Snake has some trouble when he's forced to approach, and thats a given.
Then what are you getting at? I brought up that Snake gets out camped, showing that he has weaknesses. You wanted to know how some had the advantage, so I went off onto a matchup tangent. The fact is, Snake has some pretty bad matchups. While he's one who can adapt well, there are situations where what he has is outshone. I believe Metaknight will pass him in the tiers because his only bad matchup is.... Snake. He has no issues with camping, as his approaches are awesome, and he certainly has no problems up close. Metaknight fits even better than Snake in situations, and it feels like he will out do Snake as the tournament scene progresses.
I even think G&W will outdo him, but thats for another time.
The thing is, you took it upon yourself to argue matchups. You wanted to argue Wolf v Snake, which is fine as this is also a character discussion, but you shouldnt tell me to not argue advantages or disadvantages, because thats what you started arguing about.
Snake = Bad Matchups with good campers
MK = No real bad matchups
So, I'm back to where I started from. MK should pass Snake, and it wont take long. At this point, Snake is still on his throne, though.
I even think G&W will outdo him, but thats for another time.
The thing is, you took it upon yourself to argue matchups. You wanted to argue Wolf v Snake, which is fine as this is also a character discussion, but you shouldnt tell me to not argue advantages or disadvantages, because thats what you started arguing about.
Snake = Bad Matchups with good campers
MK = No real bad matchups
So, I'm back to where I started from. MK should pass Snake, and it wont take long. At this point, Snake is still on his throne, though.
Then I guess I'm done discussing for now. You're right, it's come full circle.
Agreed.
Snake wont see much airtime if he plays his cards right.
Off the topic of Top Tiers, who do you all think should make up the bottom tier, at this point in time? I'm pretty confident that Capt. Falcon is the worst, but I'm not sure how to build up from there. Ganon isn't too terrible, Yoshi is better than credited, and Link has his perks.
It's hard to decide.
Snake wont see much airtime if he plays his cards right.
Off the topic of Top Tiers, who do you all think should make up the bottom tier, at this point in time? I'm pretty confident that Capt. Falcon is the worst, but I'm not sure how to build up from there. Ganon isn't too terrible, Yoshi is better than credited, and Link has his perks.
It's hard to decide.
I was under the impression that another one of Metaknights poor matchups was against Dedede, due to obvious range issues and Dedede's weight giving him a stark advantage over Metaknight. I know personal opinion doesn't often matter in a debate like this, but I would like to personally vouch for this notion, as I was able to beat a very skilled Metaknight player (MDK, for anyone who wants to look him up on Youtube) with Dedede and had little trouble. However, every other match I used Yoshi and got beaten handily, so I would like some opinions.
Mr. Esc, I'm sure you've played against Dunk's Falcon, and it's embarrassing to admit but Dunk has beaten me plenty of times with him. (though that may be the fact that Dunk is a highly technically-skilled player, whereas I tend to work on mindgames and outpredicting) I'm not so certain we should jump on the "Falcon is worst" wagon, as he still has significant punch (ahaha get it) behind all of his available moves, despite being unable to combo as easily, just like Ganondorf.
Mr. Esc, I'm sure you've played against Dunk's Falcon, and it's embarrassing to admit but Dunk has beaten me plenty of times with him. (though that may be the fact that Dunk is a highly technically-skilled player, whereas I tend to work on mindgames and outpredicting) I'm not so certain we should jump on the "Falcon is worst" wagon, as he still has significant punch (ahaha get it) behind all of his available moves, despite being unable to combo as easily, just like Ganondorf.
I dunno. I don't play MK ^____^
Dunk is an amazing player, but Falcon is still garbage in my eyes. He's got very few redeeming qualities aside from his taunts. :P
Dunk is an amazing player, but Falcon is still garbage in my eyes. He's got very few redeeming qualities aside from his taunts. :P
Poor recovery (it was never good but whatever), but the main issue is that Melee is a much more floaty game and lacks a lot of hit stun, which is what gave Falcon so much combo potential (and in essence, KO/pressure potential) in Melee.
(edit: Also like Wolt says, lack of projectile really hurts even though his speed allows him to deal with it better than say, Ike. Lack of range hurts too)
To be honest Dunk, you're the only person I've seen to play him well, and I think that's just because you're a lot more skilled than I am in general that I consistently get raped by you. Which is why I'm not so sure that Falcon is the absolute worst. Thinking about it in more detail, I'm actually willing to venture that Bowser is the very worst. His weight still isn't a significant enough advantage, gets juggled easily like Charizard, and while his improved Koopa Claw allows for awesome mindgames etc., it's just not enough.
I think Bowsa is much better than CF.
Captain Falcon has a mediocre approach game, a non-existant projectile game, a poor recovery, very few killing moves, not many ways to consistently pressure characters and rack up damage, etc etc.
He's a melee character stuck in Brawl's low hitstun engine.
Even with Dunk doing so well with the Falcon, I don't have a good opinion of him.
Captain Falcon has a mediocre approach game, a non-existant projectile game, a poor recovery, very few killing moves, not many ways to consistently pressure characters and rack up damage, etc etc.
He's a melee character stuck in Brawl's low hitstun engine.
Even with Dunk doing so well with the Falcon, I don't have a good opinion of him.
I dunno, I don't see what Dorf has over CF at all, making him a lower placement.
Don't forget the KNEE is about impossible to land now! And what the 'Dorf has over him is a lot more power, weight, range, and the best tech chase in the game with >B. The only thing he's lacking compared to Falcon is run speed.
The one thing I will say is that Wolf's Reflector doesn't really protect him that well from EXPLOSIONS, you dolts. Properly tossed grenades will still blow people up, as will Nikita if dropped slightly in front of them. Blaster spam at mid-range makes tossing grenades a chore, though.
ROB/Snake vid didn't show me much of anything, other than the final stock where Snake get carried out by FAir and eventually spiked off the ledge is a decent show. Even recovering high doesn't help much against ROB, you're just setting yourself up for an early NAir kill because he can reach your ass up there with his Up-B. Olimar vids were pretty sexy, but needed more UTilt/UAir and at least one tether kill. :P
Calciphone, ROB's laser takes a while to charge up. Charged it's a good edgeguard, but certainly it deals the most damage when used as often as possible. It keeps his melee attacks refreshed and there's not a god damn thing Snake can do about it anyway. ROB is hardly a light character and he'll chip away much better with his projectile, trading hits by blowing yourself up with grenades is not a wise plan.
Pikachu just rapes Snake all over the place from his stupid ground-hugging projectile that makes both mortar sliding impossible and tossing grenades a chore, to his across-the-stage chaingrab that ends in Snake getting Thunder walled, to his high speed and annoying small size which makes Snake's AAA kick go over his head half the time. Not insurmountable, since Snake is significantly heavier with no shortage of killing power, but he has to stay on the stage which isn't easy when your opponent has an easy chaingrab to throw you off it. Snake's edge game is terrible.
MK isn't even that bad off against Snake, it's simply that Snake has the ability to spam grenades and trade hits all day with his weight advantage. :/ But MK makes Snake his bitch in the air and he can edgeguard Snake pretty darned well.
Doesn't hurt that half the east coast mains him too. :/ I wouldn't say his mediocre air game doesn't impact his performance, since his complete inability to approach from the air is a big part of why he has a tough matchup with the "campier" characters. Air Dodging is fine and dandy, but it's not a cure-all to avoiding aerial combat and everyone can use it to the same effect. Snake just doesn't have the alternative to punish in the air when the opportunity presents itself. Refer to the previously posted video where Snake repeatedly gets killed by ROB's delayed, lingering NAir too...
Except FTilt, his range really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Dedede can't chainthrow MK and he's incredibly BIG and SLOW. On the other hand, UTilt is a killer off the top and he can protect himself in the air quite well.
The one thing I will say is that Wolf's Reflector doesn't really protect him that well from EXPLOSIONS, you dolts. Properly tossed grenades will still blow people up, as will Nikita if dropped slightly in front of them. Blaster spam at mid-range makes tossing grenades a chore, though.
ROB/Snake vid didn't show me much of anything, other than the final stock where Snake get carried out by FAir and eventually spiked off the ledge is a decent show. Even recovering high doesn't help much against ROB, you're just setting yourself up for an early NAir kill because he can reach your ass up there with his Up-B. Olimar vids were pretty sexy, but needed more UTilt/UAir and at least one tether kill. :P
Calciphone, ROB's laser takes a while to charge up. Charged it's a good edgeguard, but certainly it deals the most damage when used as often as possible. It keeps his melee attacks refreshed and there's not a god damn thing Snake can do about it anyway. ROB is hardly a light character and he'll chip away much better with his projectile, trading hits by blowing yourself up with grenades is not a wise plan.
Pikachu just rapes Snake all over the place from his stupid ground-hugging projectile that makes both mortar sliding impossible and tossing grenades a chore, to his across-the-stage chaingrab that ends in Snake getting Thunder walled, to his high speed and annoying small size which makes Snake's AAA kick go over his head half the time. Not insurmountable, since Snake is significantly heavier with no shortage of killing power, but he has to stay on the stage which isn't easy when your opponent has an easy chaingrab to throw you off it. Snake's edge game is terrible.
MK isn't even that bad off against Snake, it's simply that Snake has the ability to spam grenades and trade hits all day with his weight advantage. :/ But MK makes Snake his bitch in the air and he can edgeguard Snake pretty darned well.
Doesn't hurt that half the east coast mains him too. :/ I wouldn't say his mediocre air game doesn't impact his performance, since his complete inability to approach from the air is a big part of why he has a tough matchup with the "campier" characters. Air Dodging is fine and dandy, but it's not a cure-all to avoiding aerial combat and everyone can use it to the same effect. Snake just doesn't have the alternative to punish in the air when the opportunity presents itself. Refer to the previously posted video where Snake repeatedly gets killed by ROB's delayed, lingering NAir too...
Except FTilt, his range really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Dedede can't chainthrow MK and he's incredibly BIG and SLOW. On the other hand, UTilt is a killer off the top and he can protect himself in the air quite well.
Power, weight, a spammable Dair, techchasing, edgeguarding. The only thing Ganon doesn't have over Falcon is a catchphrase. HHHHRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! is a lot less catchy than Falcon PAWNCH.
Thanks for explaining why Falcon is such a bad character...and for the compliments, too!
How do you guys make such generalizations with coasts? It seems like the east coast full of people that just want to win, but the west coast has more of an open mindset and are trying new things (like that guy playing Wario that Mr. Esc was talking about). I wonder why that's the case...I certainly don't think I'm one of those that plays to win.
How do you guys make such generalizations with coasts? It seems like the east coast full of people that just want to win, but the west coast has more of an open mindset and are trying new things (like that guy playing Wario that Mr. Esc was talking about). I wonder why that's the case...I certainly don't think I'm one of those that plays to win.
There's some stupid ongoing rivalry between east and west coast players in the states, frankly I don't see why it's continued to this day. Why can't everyone be like us Canadians and get along with one another ;(
Mr. E, I actually forgot to mention the air game, now that you bring it up. It seems Dedede vs. Metaknight generally results in a Dedede win for aerials battles, as pretty much every move Dedede has (save Nair) outranges Metaknight's moves. That takes away a significant aspect of Metaknight's dominance (aerial pressure) and since Ftilt is so abusable on the ground, what does it matter that Metaknight can't be chainthrowed?
Mr. E, I actually forgot to mention the air game, now that you bring it up. It seems Dedede vs. Metaknight generally results in a Dedede win for aerials battles, as pretty much every move Dedede has (save Nair) outranges Metaknight's moves. That takes away a significant aspect of Metaknight's dominance (aerial pressure) and since Ftilt is so abusable on the ground, what does it matter that Metaknight can't be chainthrowed?
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