snake requires further investigation on my part, probably... but in my experience, he ranks as high tier. his recovery isnt spectacular, for one thing, and his aerial moves are questionable
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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Firestorm
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snake requires further investigation on my part, probably... but in my experience, he ranks as high tier. his recovery isnt spectacular, for one thing, and his aerial moves are questionable
The problem is that you cant use each one as an individual thanks to the switching mechanic. :/
and why did you put the pokemon trainer as a whole and his individual pokemon on your tier list?
Ness and Lucas aren't really carbon copies that you compare and get a better. There really different characters with different ways to use them.
..and as to what Lucas has over ness, his PK thunder can bend quicker and isn't gimped as easily thanks to it's multi hit effect, His down special ends with a really powerful attack, and he has that CRAZY up-smash (I'm sure there's alot I'm forgetting, these are just off the top of my head).
Although I guess what I've said can be changed to Ness' PKT2 killing at low percentages and his down special ending with a wind effect to further prove my "different" point.
If anyone's interested, I also found this match-up chart on SWF
Edit: WHO! sorry. Didn't realize how off the chart was. Nevermind then :/
That chart is wrong in regards to Yoshi's matchups. Yoshi isn't disadvantaged against Game & Watch (Eggs are better than sausages for one) and there's a bunch of other disrepancies. Additionally, from what I hear, Yoshi has some sort of infinite on Wario. If so, why is his spot marked as a disadvantage?
Jesus this chart infuriates me, so full of mistakes on lower-tiered characters.
Jesus this chart infuriates me, so full of mistakes on lower-tiered characters.
How does DK have an advantage over Peach? I think I play both of them decently enough to say that I don't see how DK can do much to Peach. She has some CRAZY combos (I just did a 55% combo with a her a couple of times in a few Wi-Fi matches I just had, but I don't know if my opponent really DI'd that well), and her Turnips can let her "camp"...I suppose DK is capable of getting kills at lower percentages much easier, but still. -_-
God, the more I think about it, the more I love playing as Peach!
God, the more I think about it, the more I love playing as Peach!
I was unsure to argue whether Yoshi should be neutral to G&W, but I decided G&W still hasthe upper hand. Shaky's Yoshi is troubled vs me, and the Yoshi section regards G&W as a disadvantaged matchup, but nothing too severe. My inability to deal with eggs shouldnt matter xP
But the chart is still quite wrong >_>
The person who made it only changes matchups HE agrees with. It's really frustrating.
But the chart is still quite wrong >_>
The person who made it only changes matchups HE agrees with. It's really frustrating.
LOL The Mantyke, easily the worst chart I've ever seen. What the hell was their logic, no projectiles = bottom tier?
Seriously, that whole chart is complete conjecture.
Seriously, that whole chart is complete conjecture.
That match-up chart (and the topic it came from) is an okay reference but good players can spot the obvious flaws, at least for their own characters and the top tier.
It's too decisive in general; Lucas is certainly not at a "large" disadvantage against G&W, half of his "disadvantaged" matchups are fairly neutral, and at least DK and Peach are on the wrong side of the matchup despite what the chart says. ROB is not disadvantaged against Kirby/Zelda and for all the chaingrabbing, blaster-spamming annoyance that Falco is, ROB isn't susceptible to his chainthrow -> spike and can low-% gimp him very easily. I'm glad they caught ROB's matchup advantage against Snake, but Pikachu most certainly isn't neutral against him (and I'd argue Falco as well). And so on...
"2 things that made me go WTF was Ike having an advantage over Samus"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
Rest of stuff continued.
It's too decisive in general; Lucas is certainly not at a "large" disadvantage against G&W, half of his "disadvantaged" matchups are fairly neutral, and at least DK and Peach are on the wrong side of the matchup despite what the chart says. ROB is not disadvantaged against Kirby/Zelda and for all the chaingrabbing, blaster-spamming annoyance that Falco is, ROB isn't susceptible to his chainthrow -> spike and can low-% gimp him very easily. I'm glad they caught ROB's matchup advantage against Snake, but Pikachu most certainly isn't neutral against him (and I'd argue Falco as well). And so on...
"2 things that made me go WTF was Ike having an advantage over Samus"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
Rest of stuff continued.
You know, I'm honestly not convinced that Snake is going to be Top Tier long-term. He has more bad matchups than the other "top" characters; Falco and Pikachu's chain throws crap all over him, ROB's laser blows up his Grenades in-hand, goes through Nikita, and his Gyro stops mortar sliding. Most anyone with a good projectile game stops his own and his only decent approach is mortar sliding. His air game is mediocre at best and he's easily edgeguarded for a myriad of reasons. (Up-B itself takes a predictable path and doesn't sweetspot the ledge, while his short DJ and fast fall speed force it more often. His aerials don't protect him well off-stage, since FAir is laggy and NAir is suicide.) He's highly susceptible to certain CP stages. In due time I think he'll settle in Upper Tier, broken tilts or not.
On the other hand, MK is generally a very strong character in his own right but has no truly heinous CP characters or stages to beat him with. Marth or DK for MK doesn't hold a candle to what Pikachu does to Snake. I might even argue G&W over Snake, though G&W does face a couple hard matchups himself (like TL). Honestly, my opinion of Pit is still rather high as well...
The problem with PT isn't that any of the pokemon are truly all that terrible, but that you're FORCED to use all of them. (Well, at least two of them I'm sure.) Squirtle might have a great match-up against your opponent's character, but if you're forced to use the disadvantaged Ivysaur and Charizard more than half the time you're going to lose anyway. The whole Stamina thing also makes PT the only character in the game susceptible to stalling, and I don't mean in the lead with 30 seconds left.
I wish someone would take up the cause for Jigglypuff. If Wario can be successful, I don't see why Jigglypuff can't since they're incredibly similar. Wario is much heavier, but doesn't edgeguard as well and somehow has even less range. But where Wario's metagame is thriving, everyone else is just whining about how Jiggly was better in Melee. :/
To be fair, ROB isn't so much a character as he is a laughable periphery. I certainly didn't take him up because he can camp, though. I started practicing with him as a Heavy alt (along with Ike and Snake) to Lucas and because he plays well on WiFi even in lag, but using him so much he just grew on me eventually.
It's not limited to tether and it's part of why ZSS is not weak in recovery despite her tethering nature. She's pretty floaty to begin with and her Down-B also acts as a third jump/attack. Tether recovery is great as long as you're not wholly reliant on it ala Olimar/Ivysaur, and even better is ZSS has the longest one.
For one, most things.
On the other hand, MK is generally a very strong character in his own right but has no truly heinous CP characters or stages to beat him with. Marth or DK for MK doesn't hold a candle to what Pikachu does to Snake. I might even argue G&W over Snake, though G&W does face a couple hard matchups himself (like TL). Honestly, my opinion of Pit is still rather high as well...
The problem with PT isn't that any of the pokemon are truly all that terrible, but that you're FORCED to use all of them. (Well, at least two of them I'm sure.) Squirtle might have a great match-up against your opponent's character, but if you're forced to use the disadvantaged Ivysaur and Charizard more than half the time you're going to lose anyway. The whole Stamina thing also makes PT the only character in the game susceptible to stalling, and I don't mean in the lead with 30 seconds left.
I wish someone would take up the cause for Jigglypuff. If Wario can be successful, I don't see why Jigglypuff can't since they're incredibly similar. Wario is much heavier, but doesn't edgeguard as well and somehow has even less range. But where Wario's metagame is thriving, everyone else is just whining about how Jiggly was better in Melee. :/
To be fair, ROB isn't so much a character as he is a laughable periphery. I certainly didn't take him up because he can camp, though. I started practicing with him as a Heavy alt (along with Ike and Snake) to Lucas and because he plays well on WiFi even in lag, but using him so much he just grew on me eventually.
It's not limited to tether and it's part of why ZSS is not weak in recovery despite her tethering nature. She's pretty floaty to begin with and her Down-B also acts as a third jump/attack. Tether recovery is great as long as you're not wholly reliant on it ala Olimar/Ivysaur, and even better is ZSS has the longest one.
For one, most things.
Yeah, I argued for a small advantage over Lucas instead of a large one, and it was dismissed ._____.
Really, It's mostly Ness who has trouble with G&W. Lucas isn't that bad vs G&W.
Theres not much to be done, even if you make a huge argument. He'll ignore it. The best you can do is ignore the chart itself ;D
edit:
I'm in full agreement with your assessment on Snake. I personally feel MK will take the top, and stay there. G&W might of dropped down a bit, but with further exploration into his metagame makes me think he's actually end up being above Snake. Uair stalling is amazing, the bucket does a lot more than is apparent, and has probably the BEST moveset of any character.
G&W doesnt have too much trouble with TL, but its probably more than most other characters. MK's at high levels of play give G&W a lot of trouble. Overall, he has amazing matchups.
I'm also all for Yoshi rising up.
With Bsticking, a lot of yoshi specific techs can be found. He has a tight air game, a much better recovery (and he's tanky to boot), a great projectile game, and some nice things here and there.
His approach is also better than other lower tiered characters, and the only thing he's lacking is a way to land the kill. Uair doesnt always work.
Really, It's mostly Ness who has trouble with G&W. Lucas isn't that bad vs G&W.
Theres not much to be done, even if you make a huge argument. He'll ignore it. The best you can do is ignore the chart itself ;D
edit:
I'm in full agreement with your assessment on Snake. I personally feel MK will take the top, and stay there. G&W might of dropped down a bit, but with further exploration into his metagame makes me think he's actually end up being above Snake. Uair stalling is amazing, the bucket does a lot more than is apparent, and has probably the BEST moveset of any character.
G&W doesnt have too much trouble with TL, but its probably more than most other characters. MK's at high levels of play give G&W a lot of trouble. Overall, he has amazing matchups.
I'm also all for Yoshi rising up.
With Bsticking, a lot of yoshi specific techs can be found. He has a tight air game, a much better recovery (and he's tanky to boot), a great projectile game, and some nice things here and there.
His approach is also better than other lower tiered characters, and the only thing he's lacking is a way to land the kill. Uair doesnt always work.
Wait, do you find that funny or are you just laughing at me? I can never seem to tell online.
ahh Family guy quotes
No but really... I heard that Marth only looks gay while Ike actually is gay
Oh and also I like how they put small disadvantage for MK vs. Olimar
Every single attack MK does destroys the pikmin. Basically all Olimar can do is hope to grab MK if he isnt approaching with that stupid tornado.
No but really... I heard that Marth only looks gay while Ike actually is gay
Oh and also I like how they put small disadvantage for MK vs. Olimar
Every single attack MK does destroys the pikmin. Basically all Olimar can do is hope to grab MK if he isnt approaching with that stupid tornado.
MK rapes just about everything that doesn't have a larger range or quicker attacks than he does. Or at least for me. Damn I can't kill the bastard.
Snake is obviously the highest tier. He has so many techs that he can do to pressure, combo, blah blah blah. The only thing wrong with snake is....Well, nothing to be honest. In every single field that you would rank a character, he excels.
I hate people who still believe that. People took it WAY out of context and just nitpick it to make it sound like he's gay. It can't be proven either way and should just be dropped right up there with the Marth is a girl scenario.
Snake cant combo, MK pressures better, blah blah blah.
I mean, you can learn to powershield Snake's tilts, but Metaknight's attacks are so lagless that this will not do much good. Snake is too slow, and MK is too fast.
I mean, you can learn to powershield Snake's tilts, but Metaknight's attacks are so lagless that this will not do much good. Snake is too slow, and MK is too fast.
A slight disagreement I have with this. Snake has less than perfect aerials and his recovery doesn't sweetspot the edge and is gimpable.
and anyone who camps better than him, i.e. Wolf, beats him up. He's a great camper, but when faced with other great campers, he's in a bad place.
I'm going to have to vouch for this. As I Wolf/Marth main, I've never had a Snake give me any trouble. With Wolf being heavy, Fsmash outranging Snake's tilts, having a reflector with invinciblity frames to stop Snake's preojectiles and a blaster that Snake can't crawl under and destroys his mines, it makes it a difficult match up for Snake I'd say. Add to that that trying to spike Wolf with the Fair off the stage is probably going to get YOU spiked with Wolf's uncanceled Side B.
Come on Wolt, you and I both played Radiant Dawn. Ike only has an ending with Soren and Ranulf.
Stuff like this in the Fire Emblem games is pretty common (FE 4 promoted incestuous relationships to get the best second generation, FE 7 of course had Raven/Lucius not to mention Raven/his sister Priscilla, FE 8 has twincest between the main lords), it's fucking all over the place. If Heather can be a lesbian for Nephenee, then it's pretty safe to say Ike's gay, and sure idiots will poke fun at it but it's about fucking time we had a gay lord in our FE games, not to mention games in general since they're so drastically under-represented.
And sure Marth looks like a girl but hot damn he gets a smokin' girlfriend, Sheeda is amazing.
pokemon trainer's three pokemon are likely around mid tier so logically, you could assume pokemon trainer would be mid tier, assuming an average of the three and equal skill with all three pokemon. personally, i don't think a simple average is the best way to do it, because you aren't forced to use all three pokemon equally. i'll go into detail further in my post but if a trainer optimizes his two most effective pokemon in a matchup and minimizes the least effective, pt could theoretically be high tier...but this is with optimum potential and such that may never be realized.
the switching mechanic is both a blessing and a curse. but there are ways to emphasize the blessing and minimize the curse.
obviously, switching gives you access to three different movesets and playstyles. your opponent has to adjust completely whenever you switch. yadda yadda yadda variability and such. i can't find the right word for it but you know what i mean. in addition, if your pokemon out right now has staled its main ko moves, you can just work in a switch and hit the opponent with a completely fresh smash attack. it's pretty refreshing when squirtle is having trouble getting the kill in, ivysaur comes in and quickly disposes of the opponent with an fsmash. :)
now, the bad. you are forced to use all three pokemon to some extent. against a majority of the cast, one (sometimes two) pokemon is "super effective" against the opponent, a second is on a fairly even playing field, and the third is at a disadvantage. some cite this disadvantaged pokemon as one of the main reasons pokemon trainer sucks, because you are forced to use it at some point. there's a few ways to get around this but it boils down to smart switching.
let's use a real example: fox. i've played lg386's fox, and many other pt users on smashboards have played good foxes, and the general consensus is this: ivysaur's range and power gives it an amazing advantage over fox, squirtle's aerial game and overall quickness work decently against fox's quickness, but squirtle is light (actually just as light as fox is) so both are susceptible to a strong smash from the other once either is at or above 80%. it's a neutral match up. charizard, finally, is very strong and can ko fox at low percents, but fox's amazing combo ability rapes charizard's size and weight and is very easy to juggle. it's a disadvantage.
usually, pt wants to start with either squirtle or ivysaur. squirtle can rack up damage and ivysaur can come in either after you die or when fox has been damaged enough to the point where one fsmash or uair will do the job. then ivysaur can stay out for a while. most trainers would want to leave it out until it's ko'd because hey, ivysaur is your best bet. but this isn't a wise decision. why? because afterward charizard has to come in, with 0%. if you are lucky, fox has 100%+ damage so all charizard has to do is knock fox back/ko with a strong attack and squirtle can come out. but this isn't always the case, and charizard may have to stay out quite a while before you can switch, potentially costing you a stock.
how do we avoid this? switch charizard in before ivysaur is knocked out. this does two things. one charizard comes in with a lot of damage beforehand, so fox's attacks knock him back a bit further and now cannot combo as easily. two, when charizard does finally get ko'd, squirtle comes in and you usually don't have to use charizard again in a standard 3-stock match. now, you've effectively minimized charizard's negative impact on the match and can focus on using squirtle and ivysaur.
this is an example of smart switching. although overall, your three pokemon may average only a neutral match up against fox since you could reason that ivysaur and charizard's impacts cancel each other out, this does not have to be the case. a smart pokemon trainer will have the overall advantage against fox, with squirtle and ivysaur fighting most of the match and charizard coming in to stock tank once or using one powerful attack to ko fox, and then moving on to squirtle.
in a perfect world, this is how pokemon trainer would play and it would be effective against most characters. only a few characters in the cast give all three pokemon some kind of trouble, and these are the best in the game. metaknight is quite a bitch for all three, gw and olimar can be troublesome. but aside from these exceptions, two of pt's pokemon can usually do the job.
there are some obstacles that can prevent this though, one being the fact that the player has to be skilled and efficient with all three pokemon. if your least capable pokemon has the disadvantage anyway, then you can minimize it and it won't be such a problem. but what if that pokemon is supposed to be your greatest asset and has the best advantage against that opponent? then your advantage is minimalized and perhaps even completely negated. now you are forced to play as one of your other pokemon, who lacks that same advantage. you are effectively crippled and cannot play to your strengths. this is, in my opinion, the main reason why pokemon trainer isn't doing so well in most tier list 'predictions' and current tourney results. most players lack the skill needed with all three to be able to effectively emphasize the pokemon with the best advantage against all opponents.
in time, i think a few players will eventually master all three and become...
pokemon...
masters...
the switching mechanic is both a blessing and a curse. but there are ways to emphasize the blessing and minimize the curse.
obviously, switching gives you access to three different movesets and playstyles. your opponent has to adjust completely whenever you switch. yadda yadda yadda variability and such. i can't find the right word for it but you know what i mean. in addition, if your pokemon out right now has staled its main ko moves, you can just work in a switch and hit the opponent with a completely fresh smash attack. it's pretty refreshing when squirtle is having trouble getting the kill in, ivysaur comes in and quickly disposes of the opponent with an fsmash. :)
now, the bad. you are forced to use all three pokemon to some extent. against a majority of the cast, one (sometimes two) pokemon is "super effective" against the opponent, a second is on a fairly even playing field, and the third is at a disadvantage. some cite this disadvantaged pokemon as one of the main reasons pokemon trainer sucks, because you are forced to use it at some point. there's a few ways to get around this but it boils down to smart switching.
let's use a real example: fox. i've played lg386's fox, and many other pt users on smashboards have played good foxes, and the general consensus is this: ivysaur's range and power gives it an amazing advantage over fox, squirtle's aerial game and overall quickness work decently against fox's quickness, but squirtle is light (actually just as light as fox is) so both are susceptible to a strong smash from the other once either is at or above 80%. it's a neutral match up. charizard, finally, is very strong and can ko fox at low percents, but fox's amazing combo ability rapes charizard's size and weight and is very easy to juggle. it's a disadvantage.
usually, pt wants to start with either squirtle or ivysaur. squirtle can rack up damage and ivysaur can come in either after you die or when fox has been damaged enough to the point where one fsmash or uair will do the job. then ivysaur can stay out for a while. most trainers would want to leave it out until it's ko'd because hey, ivysaur is your best bet. but this isn't a wise decision. why? because afterward charizard has to come in, with 0%. if you are lucky, fox has 100%+ damage so all charizard has to do is knock fox back/ko with a strong attack and squirtle can come out. but this isn't always the case, and charizard may have to stay out quite a while before you can switch, potentially costing you a stock.
how do we avoid this? switch charizard in before ivysaur is knocked out. this does two things. one charizard comes in with a lot of damage beforehand, so fox's attacks knock him back a bit further and now cannot combo as easily. two, when charizard does finally get ko'd, squirtle comes in and you usually don't have to use charizard again in a standard 3-stock match. now, you've effectively minimized charizard's negative impact on the match and can focus on using squirtle and ivysaur.
this is an example of smart switching. although overall, your three pokemon may average only a neutral match up against fox since you could reason that ivysaur and charizard's impacts cancel each other out, this does not have to be the case. a smart pokemon trainer will have the overall advantage against fox, with squirtle and ivysaur fighting most of the match and charizard coming in to stock tank once or using one powerful attack to ko fox, and then moving on to squirtle.
in a perfect world, this is how pokemon trainer would play and it would be effective against most characters. only a few characters in the cast give all three pokemon some kind of trouble, and these are the best in the game. metaknight is quite a bitch for all three, gw and olimar can be troublesome. but aside from these exceptions, two of pt's pokemon can usually do the job.
there are some obstacles that can prevent this though, one being the fact that the player has to be skilled and efficient with all three pokemon. if your least capable pokemon has the disadvantage anyway, then you can minimize it and it won't be such a problem. but what if that pokemon is supposed to be your greatest asset and has the best advantage against that opponent? then your advantage is minimalized and perhaps even completely negated. now you are forced to play as one of your other pokemon, who lacks that same advantage. you are effectively crippled and cannot play to your strengths. this is, in my opinion, the main reason why pokemon trainer isn't doing so well in most tier list 'predictions' and current tourney results. most players lack the skill needed with all three to be able to effectively emphasize the pokemon with the best advantage against all opponents.
in time, i think a few players will eventually master all three and become...
pokemon...
masters...
Snake is indeed slow. But the fact that he is nigh unapproachable makes up for that. -I forgot a lot of the names of his moves here, so bear with me- With mines, grenades, ->B, usmash and downB, it becomes very very hard to get near him at all. Grab him and you're hit by usmash. Attack and you're hit by grenades. Dodge and you let him set up even more. Wait and Snake can wait you out.
Snake's aerials are:
Bair - move for keeping people off of the stage
Fair - One of the few very safe spikes
Nair - If you edgegaurd with it, it's hard to miss because you can't airdodge it
Dair - Shorthopped, it does quite a bit of damage and can't be sidestepped. Shielding it is hard.
Uair - launching move for juggling and more set up time
The fact that all of these have a good amount of power to them helps as well.
His recovery actually can't sweetspot the ledge, but you can airdodge out of it and grab the ledge almost as if you sweetspotted it. You can say it's gimpable, but most of the time, Snake just gets back on the stage. Lets not forget that his downB can be used in an emergency for recovery as well.
How so? Wolf's lasers don't go all that far and Snake can pressure Wolf even from a distance with grenades and ->B. And his ->B eats through Wolf's lasers as well.
Just because he's never given you trouble doesn't mean that the general smasher doesn't have trouble with him. Face Psychomidget, Champ or DSF and then tell me if Snake never gives you trouble.
The invincibility frames of Wolf's reflector are very few, making dodging any of Snake's projectiles hard to do.
As a Wolf main as you say, you should know that Wolf's main problem is recovery. With Snake, many, many of his moves knock you off of the stage and force you to recover. Saying that his side B will spike you is crap considering that the odds of you pulling that off are very low.
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